BTVS S2E17 Passion

DIVA DOWN! It's a big one, it's a sad one, passion makes you act recklessly but also makes life worth living

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Everyone. It's leading Ian from approximately like sixty five minutes, no,
ninety five minutes into this episode that you're listening to,
and we just realized an.

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hour thirty eight is the time stamp I have.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
We just now realize is realize that this episode is
releasing on Christmas Eve, and you know, a big day
in cultureaged for those of you who celebrate Merry Christmas.
An angel is like Santa Claus. He came and he
left everyone gifts. He left them charcole drawings of them

(00:36):
sleeping like us.

Speaker 2 (00:38):
Oh my god, he's Santa Claus in this episode.

Speaker 1 (00:41):
And then he went and he killed their teacher, just
like fucking Santa Claus.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
He sees you when you're sleeping.

Speaker 3 (00:48):
He knows where you're awake, he knows if you've been Vada.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
It's so good.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
Fuckessic, you've had at John, You've had an Acquie. I'm
telling you why Angelllos is coming to down.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
Recovering Gleek presents.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
A clear Buffy podcast. Hello everyone, my name is Lena
and I'm Ian, and welcome to say a queer Buffy podcast.
We lost a batty, we lost a baddie.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
This is crazy because one this is actually how I
tend to deal with grief, is I just like, yeah,
I'm like, I'm gonna bring the vibe, like ever get
your spirits up? Well that was let me take that again.
I don't know, this is crazy because one you and

(02:05):
I both knew that this happened. We've known this happened
for a long time. We've had a lot of time
to process what happens in this episode, and so I like,
what am I trying to say? I don't want to
come across like a sociopath, but maybe I am a sociopath.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
Definitely not.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
My gut instinct is like I feel like my role
in tragic situations is to like be captain morale, try
and help people not feel so devastated. And I'm not
talking about like an immediate I'll give an example. I

(02:55):
always talk about this in the third person, and I
use such vague language, and I don't know, like who
I think I'm keeping a secret from it's public record.
My sister went into a coma a few years ago,
and like obviously, when she first went into the coma,
like I was in as dark a place as anyone
like I was severely depressed. But after a few weeks.
I then like the way that I was able to

(03:17):
cope with it is I was like, it is my
job to like keep my parents going basically like I'm
gonna be like, let's watch a movie together. I'm gonna
be like, how about we play a game, Like I'm
just going to do anything to keep them from being
alone with their thoughts and just like spiraling into darkness.

(03:40):
And so because I have personally been sitting with the
passing of Jenny Calender in this show that it's like
my gut instinct is like, yes, I'm gonna be like
silly and fun, Yes, but I feel like that's super
not the vibe I should be bringing into Passion.

Speaker 2 (03:56):
No, I think we can. I mean, I I hear you.
I feel like I also do that, but in a
way that I want to make people squirm, you know
what I mean? Like sometimes, like I remember when my
dad passed away, I want I kept wanting to make
jokes that would make my neighbors, like people who were

(04:17):
coming and visiting me and like sending me their well
wishes squirm. So I totally understand, I mean not totally,
but I do understand the urge to to poke fun
and to you know, make not light, but like you know,
to have a yes to sub levity in the situation.
And also like especially if you're like you're personally going

(04:38):
through it, it's like like come on, Like like if
I can smile for thirty seconds today, I'm gonna Yeah.
So I hear where I hear where you're coming from.
But hey, I think we got to pay tribute to
the number one body there ever was Jennifer Calendar. I yes,

(05:03):
and I think we should go out the way she
would want us to, giggling and poking fun and uh
mentioning how hot she is. So can you fucking believe
this shit? I seriously, And I feel like every time
I rewatch Buffy, I have to like connect with Ian

(05:26):
and be like, can you believe what happened to Jenny?
I'll never get over it and I haven't. I never
have been able to get over this. And I knew
it was coming, and I feel like there was even
a moment last week where you were like, oh my god,
it's Passion next week, and I was like, like, I
like forgot about it. I forgot that it was happening,
even though like I've watched this episode. God, how many times.

(05:47):
I don't I don't know, but I pushed this shit
out of my mind like it's happening so soon. I
swear to god, she was in this show way longer
than I thought she was.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Ever since I Robot you, Jane has been a ticking
cluck for me. This episode had such a strong effect
on me on first watch, which is why I like,
don't want to be too like he he ha ha, Yes,
because we've been sitting with this for you have you
twenty years, me like me like fifteen years. But for
a lot of our listeners they just found out for

(06:20):
the first day time now, Yeah, And so I want to,
you know, treat it with a severity that I felt
the first time I watched it, Like I, whoa, I
the shot of him snapping her neck in front of
that arched window is so imprinted in my memory. I
remember where I was sitting in my house when I

(06:43):
watched this episode for the first time, Like where specifically
in my kitchen I was sitting. Yeah, I remember Claire
messaging me and being like, oh my gosh, I can't
believe that Jenny just got killed, Like it shook me
to my core. And I mentioned this I don't remember
when that. I was like another episode's coming up, or

(07:03):
I'm gonna say turning point again. This is a massive
turning point in the show.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, especially to take a character. And I mean and
maybe and I mean obviously I wasn't like consuming television
when this came out in nineteen ninety eight, but to me,
this woman is beloved. Like I love Jenny Calender. I
think she's such a good addition to this group. I

(07:32):
think that her and Giles makes such a wonderful pair.
And I literally cannot believe they took her from us,
like I'll never I will literally never get over it.
And it's a huge turning point into like, you know,

(07:52):
she's not a main character, but she's certainly supporting. She's
a supporting role in this group. And to kill her off,
good lord, good lord.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
Up until this point, every death on the show has
either been their evil it's the Master, or it's someone
we just met this week. And we have deaths that
they really try and make mean something, and they do
mean something to us, because they mean something too with
the characters we love. But like I didn't care when
Teresa died. I cared that Buffy felt guilty about Teresa dying,

(08:24):
but like, I didn't care when Teresa died. This is
the first time that the show ever kills a character
that we as the audience know and love, and the
show goes on to do that again. But I feel
like every Buffy Watcher Jenny Callender's death is such a

(08:47):
pivotal moment in their brain because it is the first
time that this happened, and it's the first time that
the writers of the show showed us how far they
were willing to go, how high they were willing to
raise the stakes of No. Actually, yes, we will kill
random people every week that you've never heard of, but like,
we will go there, and we will take a character

(09:08):
that you know very well and love and make you
watch them die.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
No girl, that was and especially like you said, the
like curved window chasing her through the school. And then
what really sticks out to me always is and you know,
we have heard here tell of Angel's antics and his

(09:34):
like playing with his food so to speak, and the
way that he like inflicts damage onto these young girls.
But to see oh Giles finding her, Oh God, pass
me two coins of the boat man. I'm done. I'm done,
And I feel like that specifically like this the opera

(09:57):
playing in the background, all the roses, Like you know,
Jenny and Giles have been like on the outs for weeks.
They like cannot catch a break. They finally like have
a moment where they're planning to reconnect. God, I wish
they would have had like one nice moment. I I'm

(10:19):
like so devastated about this. I can't even tell you
it was.

Speaker 1 (10:22):
I was really close. I mean I wasn't really close,
but I wanted to say this last week, but I
was like, I literally can't. It's a spoiler, yeah, but
bringing up that Passion was supposed to air the week prior,
but then sar Michelle got SNL, so they wrote the
father to Bewildered, And I'm so glad that happened because
I'm like, we got one more fun episode of God,

(10:43):
You're right, Jenny. It was supposed to be Innocence and
then Passionate was supposed to be That was supposed to
be it, and that's like surprise, Innocence and Passion are
all such downers for her that I'm glad we got
one last like fun silly Jenny episode like Carefree and
Robia Scott's having a great time.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
Yeah, and Giles like it's like pulling her around by
the rest and we get to see their like silly dynamic. God,
because that's like the most normal that these two have
been in such a long time. God, like since Halloween.
Well not Halloween, when did that other guy come back?

Speaker 1 (11:21):
You're thinking of dark ages? But they were they were
normal in Ted. Yeah they had their rom com vampire killing.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
No they did, they did, but then you know, other
shit went down with with innocence and such, you know
what I mean. But I mean like these two have
had a tough run of it this season. Jenny and Giles.

Speaker 1 (11:42):
Do you want to hear some background information about Passion? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (11:45):
I do, all right, it better it better be good.
Oh yeah, it's time.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Passion is season two, episode seventeen. It is the twenty
ninth episode overall. It aired on February twenty fourth, nineteen
ninety eight. As we mentioned last week, this was supposed
to air in the spot of Bewitch Bothered and Bewildered,
and there was scheduling conflicts, and so they wrote that
episode and they pushed this one back two weeks I

(12:14):
think actually because be Wisch bothered to Bewildered air before
hold Up because Bewitch Bothered to be Wildered aired on
the tenth, and so this got pushed by two weeks.
They just didn't have anything on the seventeenth, which I'm
watching this episode and this is a bigger conversation that

(12:34):
we can get into. Out to the recap, I can
tell that this was written to be the Valentine's episode.

Speaker 2 (12:41):
Oh totally.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Then they made some tweaks when they had to change
that scheduling. Yeah, there's just a lot of stuff in
this that I'm like, Oh, this specifically was supposed.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
To all the roses devotion, passion.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Like the yeah, the episode being called Passion, all of
the like Jenny coming over to going like the plan
of Jenny coming to Chiles's house and then like all
of the roses and the wine and Jenny going to
the Mystic store and the guy being like, do you
want love potions and saying the normal like normis really
get into love potions around Valentine's Day.

Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, I hear you.

Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah, I think it was explicit in the original draft,
and then they just like made some edits to be
like it's just after Valentine's Day because SMG's Gotta Go
to New York. This episode was written by ty King,
who also wrote some Assembly required. Great episode. Ty King,

(13:37):
I like what you're cooking up, dude, And I think
this is maybe the last episode he wrote. I think
he just wrote those two and dipped, which sucks because
they're both very strong episodes.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, he's got a poet's mind.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah. And then it was directed by Michael E. Gershman,
who this is his first episode directing. He goes on
to direct a lot of episodes for this show, but
he is the director of photography for most episodes above
the Vampires Layer. This is his first time. It's just
like the director, but he's been doing He's been doing
photography for a long time, which makes sense why we

(14:12):
have such gorgeous memorable shots as Jenny getting her next
snapped in front of that arch window. I said, that's Michael. Yeah,
oh god.

Speaker 2 (14:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
So in this episode, Jonathan, Hi, Jonathan and a mystery
girl come into the library to check out books. It's
a very funny bit. This is the second and last
time that a student ever comes into the Sunnydale Library
to check out a book. No, the first. The first

(14:42):
time was Owen and never kill a boy on the
first date and never away.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
Honestly, Xander really like guard dogged the ship and was like,
what the fuck are you doing here? I So it's
like spread through the Barnes and Noble need you knock?

Speaker 1 (15:04):
So a big part of this episode is the fear
of Angel being able to come into all these places
that he was previously invited into, like Buffy's house, Willow's house,
Giles House, and Cordelia's car. Angel was first invited into
Buffy's house in the episode Angel, he was invited into

(15:27):
Willow's House, and the episode Lie to Me he was
invited into Cordelia's car in some assembly retire required shout
out ty King T King. I love that episode. I
think a lot. It's really beautiful. He was never on
screen invited into Giles's house. That is fully just four

(15:48):
plot convenience for maximum drama. He needs to place Jenny's
body in Giles's house, so at some point, off screen,
at some time, Giles invited him.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
I feel like it's not too like heart of a Mind,
like a jump that I have to do.

Speaker 1 (16:04):
Prophecy girl. Yeah, Giles said, I actually have some more
books back at my house. We're gonna find a way
to get Buffy out of this. He's like, maybe read
some books exactly.

Speaker 2 (16:17):
I mean, these two always have tension to me, so
I would not be surprised if Giles was like, hey,
come back to my house.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
Giles and Angel, have you I.

Speaker 2 (16:25):
Have said this before at least twice. Yeah, girl, I
know that.

Speaker 1 (16:31):
Like you thought it was cute that Gile's like nerds
out over Angel, sometimes I didn't think. I didn't realize
you said there was like sexual attention between them.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
I definitely mentioned it.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
That's daughter's boyfriend, that's his daughter's boyfriend.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
He's more age appropriate for Giles, although not by much.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Now you're gonna say that Joyce and Angel have tension, Damn.

Speaker 2 (16:53):
I certainly mentioned it. I definitely don't think that they
would they would kiss, but I do think what I
but I do think that Giles would want to hang
out with Angel. I think he's very interested in him.

Speaker 1 (17:05):
I think you'd want to hang out with him. And
I do think that Giles is you know, bisexual, pan sexual,
something that isn't sexual because he and Ethan Rain have
explored each other's body.

Speaker 2 (17:16):
Well, of course that's just the text. But Angel He's
explored Spike's body as well as does of course Louis
or whatever the hell his face was. What's what was
his name?

Speaker 1 (17:28):
Oh my gosh, Willie Willy. I just can't get past
that that's his daughter's boyfriend. I like can't even entertain
the yeah, no, I hear you. In the Godfather movies, hey,
oranges are used as a symbol of death. In the

(17:50):
Godfather movies. Whenever you see oranges, it is foreshadowing that
a character is going to die soon. And in this episode,
when Angel confronts outside of her house and she drops
her grocery bag, she drops oranges everywhere, and that is
an intentional homage to the Godfather because Jenny dies, I think,
like the next scene or maybe like Jesus, Angel mentions

(18:12):
that he was able to enter the school because the
school motto is an invitation. It's I'm gonna try my
best everyone. Thankfully there's no Native Latin speakers listening, because
no one's native tongue is Latin anymore. So I don't
think I will offend anyone, but I'm going to try
my best for Matia Tran's cicerretorum, I think, is what

(18:36):
Angel says and he says it means like enter all
ye who seek knowledge or something. Yep, that does not
mean that, as far as I can tell, that's nonsense.
The Italian dub of this episode has the correct Italian translation,
which is ingriditvoski siensis geritis, which actually means antolia, who's

(19:00):
acknowledge whatever he says. But also, Angel doesn't need the
school slogan to invite him in, because a school is
a public space and we have seen vampires enter public
spaces in the past without needing to be invited.

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:18):
Hey, Also, Sunnydale High, you're getting shut down, baby. The
government is pulling funding because your building is not up
to fire code. The doors at Sunnydale High do not
meet fire code. All school doors in the United States
have to open out and also have to be set

(19:40):
to be unlocked from the inside. You cannot lock someone
in a school. The doors have to be able to
open from the inside at all times in case of
a fire or in case of a vampire chasing you
around the school at night. So, Princiville Snyder, your ass
is grass. Oh for you, We're coming for you. Finally,

(20:03):
this is the most interesting fact, and it's also one
that I can't prove. I have heard for years that
originally the entire reason that Oz was written onto the
show was to get killed by Angel. That they knew

(20:26):
that Angel was going to turn evil, and they were
going to have Angel kill like a character that we
were familiar with pretty early on, to to cement him
as like a real threat and raise the stakes. And
so the reason that they introduced the character of Oz
was as a lamb to the slaughter, basically to be like,

(20:49):
this is someone that we're going to get to know
over these few episodes, and then we're going to kill
him off. And then fans ended up loving the Willow
and Oz dynamics so much that and they were like, damn, well,
we kind of can't kill him off, Like we just
introduced him, and this dynamic is really working, and so
we want to keep this character around more. And so

(21:10):
then it got changed to Jenny. The only evidence I
have to substantiate this is that Alison Hannigan in two
thousand and four, during an interview said we knew pretty
early on. I don't have the direct quote, but she
basically said, we knew pretty early on that Angel was
going to kill someone midway through season two, and then
she says in the episode in the interview, I think

(21:33):
it was supposed to be OZ, but that's like Alison
Hannigan six years later saying, I think, so that's not
like concrete, but it makes a lot of sense to me.
And here's why it makes sense. The Jenny being a
member of the Calderache clan comes out of nowhere suddenly

(21:54):
in surprise. It's like she's a member of the Calderash clan.
There's been like no hints to that. There's been like
no evidence that Jenny is keeping a close eye on
Buffy or Angel at all. In fact, she like didn't
even know that Buffy was the Slayer when she was
first introduced. So that does feel like a last minute
edition sure to then give Angel a motive to kill Jenny.

(22:16):
And also in phases, one of the facts was this
episode convinced Seth Green to stay on with the show.
And so that leads me to believe Seth Green signed
on for X amount of episodes because they were going
to kill him off. Yeah, oh, and some when they
were like actually you're your actually like what audience is
we want you to keep? We want to keep you
on the show. They had to convince him and he

(22:38):
got the script for phases and said, okay, we'll continue
on with the show. So I do think that's true.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Yeah, the only question I would have about that is
how fast is the turnover, like if he's testing super
well with audience members with episodes that came out like
a month go.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
But we had the winner hiatus, right, this is airing
in February, and What's My Line? Was What's My Line?
Part two, which is the last episode of the fall season,
aired in November, so that aired in November. This is
releasing in February. Sarah Michelle hosted SNL.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
They did ted on Halloween.

Speaker 1 (23:31):
No, no, no, I literally I can tell you when
these episodes were produced. Oh, Sarah Michelle hosted SNL on
January seventeenth, and so be Wich, Bothered and Bewildered is
being filmed January tenth through January seventeenth, and then this
episode is being filmed, you know, post January seventeenth, So

(23:53):
that gives them like nearly two months in between, but
also gets introduced in episode four of the season, which
would have been filmed, I mean, which would have aired.
I mean, I can also look that up that airs
in October. So October they introduced this new character and
they have all the way until January to be like, oh,

(24:17):
actually we should change this plan and instead of killing him, hey,
maybe kill miss Calendar instead.

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Dang, who could be date on the podcast? Who could
confirm that for us?

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Alison Hannigan Exactly. I do one hundred percent believe that rumor,
but I just for journalistic integrity's sake, I have to
state that it is a rumor. The only confirmation is
Alison Hannigan saying I think six years after.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
But it makes sense. It makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
It makes a ton of sense to me. Yeah, because
there's also other stuff that is confirmed. That is, like,
we had plans to do X, and then we saw
how audiences were responding, and so we changed it to
why because audiences were responding so well to us? Yeah. Wow,

(25:09):
So I personally I think that's true that Oz was
supposed to die in Passion originally day and then sadly
he was too popular and so Jenny Callender got caught
in the crossfire.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Dang. I mean, I don't want anyone to die, but
it is something about this show that I do. I don't.
I hate to say I enjoy it about this show,
but I like this show so much, and I I
don't know the tactics it's employing. I don't know. I

(25:46):
hate to say. I just mean, like, I hate to
say that I like it about the show, but I
think about like Game of Thrones, which is like famous
for killing off characters, or like any TV show, and
of course that's difficult to watch, but it's also like,
I think, such a huge part of life, and I
do end up enjoying those moments. So obviously I don't

(26:08):
want Jenny Conn but I appreciate this show and it's experienced,
like it's it's relationship to like grief and death.

Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah, I hate any show that tries to have life
and death stay steaks but refuses to kill off a
main character. Yeah, it it just takes it. Just I'm
not I don't actually feel the stakes because I know
that everyone is going to be safe, because you don't,
you don't have the gumption to actually like put your

(26:48):
money where your mouth is, Like you can only kill
Teresa so many times before I'm like, Okay, this means
nothing to me. I don't know who she is.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, I hear you, and I agree, like, you know, and.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yes, Ford's death was a fan but you can only
do Ford's death so many times before I'm like, yes,
I know he meant something to Buffy, but he means
nothing to me. Yeah, And so I am. I love Jenny.
I'm not like so happy they killed Jenny, but I'm
so happy they killed someone that we cared about. Yeah,
because this actually cements Angel as a real threat to

(27:19):
me the viewer. Yeah, and instead of just like in
the world.

Speaker 2 (27:23):
Also like, this is kind of the first villain so
far who has truly like caused real harm to our friends,
you know. And not to mention he was just hanging
out with Jenny three weeks ago. M hm.

Speaker 1 (27:39):
They they talk a big game about like how evil
Angel is, and it would be pretty corny if it's
like the most evil thing he did was send Buffy
a bunch of roses and then kill off her classmate
that we'd never heard of. I'd be like, Okay, sure, yeah,
this is like true evil, dastardly. I hate his ass.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
He pulls such fucked up shan this.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, it's crazy. But before we get to that, I
have the the foreign titles.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Okay, perfect.

Speaker 1 (28:13):
The alternate titles, most of them are literally passion shout out.

Speaker 2 (28:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
The French I need, I need the country of France
to answer for this one named it the orb of Fessala. Huh.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
The Orb of Fessala is nothing.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Like even It's like a mcguffin, But even as a mcguffin,
it's not very important to the episode, like it is
introduced and destroyed within like a ten minutes. Steah crazy.
They were focusing on the wrong thing. They saw this
beautiful episode about these strong emotions that love and anger
causing people, and how people react to those strong emotions,

(28:52):
and about the death of a main character and the
grief that that causes, and they went, but you know what,
the focal point of this episode is that paperweight that
Jenny buys and then Angel throws at the wall. Got
her name it after oh my gosh? Yeah, And then
the German title is Greetings from the Afterlife, which is
a little more appropriate but is also confusing. Yeah, passion

(29:16):
is they literally they say passion like ten times in
the episode. They're telling you what the title is supposed
to be. Whatever, whatever those are your slacks.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
Previously on Buffy the Vampire slayer. Rest in peace to
the baddest bitch there ever was, Jennifer Calendar. Angel is
stalking his prey all this week and causing havoc for
Buffy in the whole gang. He's killing Willow's fish and
drawing pictures of everyone while they're asleep. Jenny is working
hard to make it up to Buffy and give Angel
his soul back, but Drew has a vision and Angel

(29:52):
intercepts her, but not before she puts the ritual on
a floppy desk, on a floppy disk that falls in
the cracks of her desk, and he kills her leaves
her for Giles to find in his bed. Right after
she told him she loved him. Angel tells Joyce that
Buffy and Angel had sex. Giles goes to beat his
ass and Buffy saves him. Damn, passion is so crazy

(30:14):
and that's what you miss?

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Wow?

Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah, can you believe this stuff with the fish that
was fucked up? That was so fucked up? And I
mean it's it harkens back to what he did with
Drew's puppy or whoever's puppy. I don't remember whose it was.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Oh, I don't think we're told and be which bothered.
When Giles is reading about what he did on Valentine's Day,
Yeah we're not told.

Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, ah, what he did on Valentine's Day.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying this episode, this episode was
supposed to be Valentine's Day episode. It's all about passion.
It's a lot of like Angel stalking Buffy and Willow
saying you're still the only thing on his mind, Like
it's this. Yeah, this episode is very much about human
emotion and when taken to an extreme, what that human

(31:07):
emotion causes, both in like Angel's love of Buffy turning
to hatred and obsession, Angel's love of Angel, Buffy party me,
Buffy's love of Angel turning to she is unable to
take him down, and then Giles's grief over Jenny taking

(31:30):
to him and endangering his own life. Like it's just
like what happens when an emotion is turned to eleven,
which is a very Valentine's definitely idea. Yeah, and then
you know, just a lot of many stuff like I said,
the love potion comment in the store, the Giles and
Jenny date, all the roses. I can just really tell

(31:52):
that this was supposed to be Valentine's episode, and especially
because scheduling wise, they were gonna have a two week
break until the next episode, Like this is the big
episode you put before a break to get people to
come back.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Jesus God recipes seriously to a legend. I think about
this all the time. This like hadds such an impact
on me when I watched it the first time, and
I feel like I just connect, especially like I don't know,
being a hot bisexual who loves librarians, I feel like
I really connect with Jennifer. I love Jenny so much,

(32:28):
especially on this rewatch. I feel like I have really,
I don't know, come to really appreciate her. I think
she's really funny. I think she's really fun and I
love what she adds to Giles, and I genuinely am
so sad that she's not gonna be on the show anymore,
Like what the fuck? I just love her God, and
she's she's a bad way of jama I love her.

(32:50):
Who's going to fulfill this role for me? Who's going
to fulfill just as funny?

Speaker 1 (33:04):
I concur Jenny Calender's death. I'm trying to think if
there is another television death that had a greater effect
on me.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Oh, I mean in this show.

Speaker 1 (33:17):
Yeah, there are deaths in this show that, like, I
don't know, mean more to me, But in terms of
like I was so shocked, yep, I was so shocked. Yeah,
because no one that we have cared about has died
prior to this. They really you know, they tease that
Angels really evil, and we know that he's really evil,

(33:38):
but I just never assumed that they would actually like
have him kill him in character. And then the whole
chase sequence, it feels like she's getting away at the end,
but she throws the cart in front of Angel. He
trips over the cart and she makes it up the
stairs like they really it's so corful, Like they really
trick you and make you believe that she has best

(34:00):
at him and she's gonna make it out with her life.

Speaker 4 (34:02):
And also like.

Speaker 1 (34:05):
This has been a show of yes, it deals with
mature themes, but it tends to resolve those mature themes
by the end of the episode. Like even Light of Me,
which I think talks says a lot of stuff about
life and the grayness of good and bad, It says
all that stuff within forty five minutes, and then by
the next episode we're moving on. And so I think

(34:26):
kind of the assumption when the curse is broken for
Angel is like this will be like a fun side
you know, side quest, and then he'll get his soul
back in a few episodes. And then this episode, you know,
Jenny gets the Orbithessla, she's translating the spell. It's like, okay, yeah,
this is kind of what I expected. We had our
fun with Angel being evil, and now he's gonna be

(34:47):
switched back, and then to completely pull the rug out
from under us by being like, no, actually, the orb
got thrown at the wall, the spells are cast on fire,
and then she got killed. It's so crazy. Yeah, and
there are other deaths that maybe are more affecting to
me emotionally, but no death shocked me more than this one. Yeah,
like it shocked me to my horror.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Yeah, seriously, And not to mention, I feel like in
the show so far, when we've had close run ins,
someone is always there, namely Buffy or like even sometimes
Angel or the rest of the crew, like yup, Buffy
is always there to kind of receive someone running and
kick ass in turn. And so like, you know, this

(35:30):
chase is gosh, it's like it's an eternity. It's this
chase is long, like they are going like through multiple
buildings in this this school. So it's like it only
makes sense that she would get to safety somehow, and
you really think that she gets away and it follows

(35:51):
a formula we've set before and then turns it on
its head. And actually because Angel has freaked everyone out,
especially like talking to Joyce and making sure that Joyce
is keeping Buffy occupied talking to her about sex, like
everyone is kind of in corners because Angel has all

(36:15):
backed them up, so now he has the space too
corner Jenny alone.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
And also like Buffy is starting to soften towards Jenny
in this episode, but like, oh yeah, Jenny's on the
outs with the Scooby still like Buffy is not.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
They're not keeping an eye on her. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
And we have had evil Angel have run into the Scoobies.
We've had him like strangling Willow. We have the joy
scene in just this episode, and both those scenes are
very tense, but they both resolve how we expect them
to resolve. Actually, it's tense. It's tense. It's tense. Someone
shows up and they save the day. Or if Angel
shows up and he can't get like Angel tries to

(36:56):
follow Joyce in the house and he can't, which is
what I have come to expect from this is they're
going to build the tension, They're gonna try and scare us,
but ultimately, like we're going to maintain his status quo exactly. Yeah,
and so I so agree with you this Jenny sequences. Oh,
this is just the joy scene again. Yeah, where he's
They're gonna scare us, They're gonna say, show Angel toying

(37:16):
with one of our main characters. But ultimately, at the
last minute, something's gonna work out and she's gonna get away.
And then at the last no, she runs directly into
him and he breaks her neck.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
My god, and like to break her neck as well.
Is so deeply cruel, like this is a vampire, doesn't
even drink her blood, like it's he's not doing it,
and we've I keep I feel like we keep saying this,
but I love to say it. He's not doing this
for asastenance. He's not doing this because he has to.
He's doing it because he wants to, Like he is

(37:51):
doing it for the love of the game. Why And
then to leave her and like set her up for
Giles to find, Like, oh my god, Like that's not
even for Buffy, that is, that's for Giles. Like he

(38:11):
wants to like not only terrify her, but terrify her
entire family, entire terrify everyone in her wake. Oh my god,
I hated it. I hate it. I love it, but
I hate it.

Speaker 1 (38:23):
You know, I was watching this obviously I think Angel
is just a cruel person, yeah, and likes to enact
misery on people. But I also was wondering was it
his plan the whole time that he was going to
stage Jenny's body like this to go Giles into confronting him,
because he knows that he goes after Giles, Buffy's gonna

(38:47):
be on his ass. And you know, the number one
person if you want to get to Buffy Summers, the
number one person you take out is Giles. But he
knows like about this. If I go after gi like
Buffy's probably you know watching is close by, is going
to attack me. But if I can get Giles to

(39:07):
come to me, one, I know he's not going to
tell Buffy's going to come alone, and then two I
take him out. No Slayer we're set. I feel like
this whole thing it was less about Jenny because like, yes, Buffy, yes,
Buffy you know has a relationship with Jenny, and I'm
sure feels awful now that Jenny is dead, when she

(39:29):
and Jenny were on bad terms when Jenny died, But like, ultimately,
of all the Scoobies, Jenny is going to have the
least emotional effect on Buffy. Yeah, but it is like,
I kill Jenny to get Giles to come to me
and so I can kill him.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
Lord that I'm having ego death. I don't really know
what that means. I don't know. I just mean, wow,
I'm never I've never thought about that ever, And that
makes so much sense. I was just perfect to get
Giles alone and really like have the big like it's

(40:06):
it's Willow and it's Giles, and its choice like those
three and especially Giles the person who like has her
back in the way that like the most protection, Like
you know, he's the one who like has the tools
to protect her more than anyone. This is the one,
Oh my god. And also that's her dad he knows.

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
I've never thought about this before. That makes like so
much sense. It makes me sick.

Speaker 1 (40:35):
I was especially thinking about one the episode being called
Passion and the fact that they have Angel do all
the voiceover about passion is what gives us the joy
of love, It's what gives us the clarity of anger.
At what gives us the he says something, the ecstasy
of grief. Ecstasy of grief, that's what. Yes, But like, yes,
Angel has a lot of passion, but like he is

(41:00):
the one narrating because he is purposely manipulating people's passions
in this episode, and he is specifically manipulating Giles's passion
and using it against him. Yeah, which I think in
another world he kills Oz to get to Willow so
that Willow does something drastic and he can kill Willow.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
Oh right, I do.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
I love you Jenny Calendar, And it's a catch twenty
two of like imagining the show going forward with no Oz,
but with a Jenny, and like what would that show
look like? Yeah, but I do think from a storytelling perspective,
and just as me Ian Alred yep, I am sad

(41:46):
either way. Yes, but I can handle adult Giles being
devastated over this more than I can handle like sixteen
year old Willow Rolsenberg not right, Yeah, like that would
make me feel so sick.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
Oh, I can't even imagine.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
Also, like I don't know how the show can tonally
recover from that. Oh you know? Yeah, of like this
and like, not only is she a child, but like
of all the child characters on the show, is the
most emotionally vulnerable. To have her go through this, and
then it's like, how how do we ever have Buffy

(42:25):
like be quippie again? Yeah, after like this just happened
to her best friend? How do we ever have Willow
do anything that's not like her being absolutely devastatedly depressed.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Oh yeah, there's no way. I also feel like and
of course, like I'm sure the other version of this,
if it exists, it's not one to one, But I'm
just imagining like Willow in the same scenario like going
to be violent to like going to kill Angel herself
like one. I don't know that that is necessarily will

(42:59):
Rosenberg bag.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah, I don't know. I agree with that.

Speaker 2 (43:02):
It's probably not one to I think shy.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Willow Rosenberg is gonna be like take it down myself.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
I mean, she'll I think I could see her trying,
But I don't know that. I especially like we've already
established that, like Giles has a rage that lives in him,
and he has a violence that lives in him. I think,
obviously who knows what it would have been like, but
I cannot imagine Willow in the same scenario. I also
feel like it is And of course I hate to

(43:33):
lose a baddie. Jenny Calendar, you will always be famous.
That's my girl, that's my wife. You know, Like this
is devastating to me personally, but I'm really glad that
Oz is continuing on in this show. And I think
it's probably more effective emotionally to have Buffy pull him

(43:56):
out of the fire and then cry in his arms
and be like, I cannot do this without you. I agree,
because she can't. And I think, of course I don't
think she can do it without Willow, genuinely I don't.
But she cannot do this without Giles. That's her dad. Yeah,
and he's like going, he's like going to get himself

(44:17):
killed and he knows, and Buffy has to like put
a stop to this this mission that he's on and yeah,
Jesus crazy.

Speaker 3 (44:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Also, like, as a viewer, at this point in the show.
If Oz were to be killed, I would kind of
feel like, oh, they just introduced this character to be killed, Like,
I love Oz, but also he's just barely started to
become a Scooby, like two episodes ago exactly, Whereas Jenny
like she got integrated with the main group and prophecy girl,

(44:52):
like I'm used to her being a part of the
status quo. It feels like a loss for her to
be gone.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Yeah, lovers so much. But I am really glad that,
you know, if this was to be reversed and it
was supposed to be Oz, I think there's more story
to tell with Oz going forward. And of course I've
only ever lived this show as this version, so how
I'm sure. Yeah, I'm sure there would have been a

(45:20):
story to tell with Jenny.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
But there's another universe where we're doing this podcast and
we're like, but all these iconic Jenny plots, I can't
imagine Buffy with that. They no, seriously, And I also wonder,
like Oz is a were wolf, and I'm certain that
that would not have been the case. I'm certain that
once they decided we're going to keep Oz on the show,

(45:41):
they're like, well, we got to make him more interesting.
Let's like I'm a were wolf. Yeah, So then I'm like,
in the other version, do they do more with Jenny
being a wicca, Like does that become more important?

Speaker 2 (45:52):
I feel like in my mind that was way a
much of your plot that she was like, you know
what a technology which technopagan? Thank you, I couldn't find
the words. They kind of dropped that. They kind of
dropped that. And maybe that's just because the Caldoras, so

(46:13):
it all like became a part of it.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
I mean, she's still a techno pagan for the Colorage.
That's how she's going to reinstall Angel. It's because of
the pagan in the floppy technology to learn the spell. Yeah,
I love it is nineteen ninety eight, I know, don't
you forget to save us all? Like I love that.

Speaker 2 (46:30):
Damn. I I'm trying to think, like, I mean, there
were floppy discs in my home, but I cannot remember
ever like using them and what knowing for you know
what I mean, I think they were like you're of.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
An age, yeah that I have concrete memories of floppy disks, yes,
but we are also too young that I was never
the one operating the floor.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
No, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
I remember the box of floppy discs next to our
home computer, but I never using them. No, seriously, if
we found the sloppy disc, we'd say, sorry, Buffy, your
boyfriend's just evil forever. I don't know what the this is?

Speaker 2 (47:08):
What is this? I'd probably not operate. I don't know
these controls? My god, sorry Buffy, Jez.

Speaker 1 (47:17):
I found this hard piece of cardboard. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
But I can relate to losing like an SD card
or like a CD, like in a crack of something,
and then finding it like a year later and being like,
oh my god, where was this?

Speaker 1 (47:31):
Where was this when my boyfriend was killing all my friends?
Damn it?

Speaker 2 (47:34):
Honestly, can we talk about that moment with Joyce? My god?
I seriously, I was watching this today through my fingers.
I was so terrified, Like a like Buffy for the

(47:59):
first time has like opened up to Joyce and been like, Okay,
so I'm actually like kind of being stalked. It's chill, though.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
She's like, literally, don't worry, don't worry, don't don't worry.
You remember that guy that was like way older than
me and like was here at night one time and
we weren't home. Well, if he ever chose to get
in the house, do not let him in. But like,
don't worry, it's totally chill. Everything's fine.

Speaker 2 (48:22):
It's totally fine. Like I'm not it's not we're not,
you know. And then also for him to like really
play up that he like the stalking boyfriend aspect of
what's going on Lord, to like really terrify Joyce. What
are you telling me?

Speaker 1 (48:40):
This character was introduced in the show to be evil.
I'm like, I know, we needed all the broody build
up to make this stir effective, but like the writing
and the acting shout out, David borrianis is firing in
all cylinders in a way that it was not at
all when he was nice. Angel.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
I know, I agree. I mean, I I famously big
and big, a jealous lover. Obviously he's wreaking havoc on
my family and I hate this, but it is ravity
and him scaring the fuck out of Joyce and then
being like, I haven't been able to sleep since we
made love.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
I went, I.

Speaker 2 (49:24):
Can't believe you said that.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
It's so crazy, girl.

Speaker 2 (49:29):
Like he's got no respect, no Nooyce is like, oh girl,
this is the last thing I wanted to hear that
your creepy ass has fucked my daughter. Like I cannot
believe this shit. I'm nervous, said, kill Angel with a gun.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
She said, you know what I got underneath these oranges?
She's by Sayonara.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
She's like, and this is exactly why I'm packing heat
wherever I go to kill your ass angel As sociously,
if I was Joys, I think i'd stab him to death.
I'd procure a gun out of my own ass. I'd
find a way to kill him like he the man's
got no respect, and I know he's evil. Of this

(50:16):
is crazy.

Speaker 1 (50:18):
This is also he literally, at least I assume, intends
to kill Joyce in a few minutes, like the way
that he, as you mentioned, just plays with his food.
Like it's like, yeah, I'm gonna kill her, but I'm
also gonna have fun of playing into like, oh, I'm
your daughter's ex boyfriend, and I'm gonna let you know
that she had sex with me.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
It is so it makes me dastardly, bastardly, this man's
a dog. Obviously we know Buffy so well, like this
is our girl, this is us Buffy has such this
is NBC's This is Us. This girl has such a
tough time opening up to her mom. She even like

(51:01):
there's a moment where she is like asking Giles like,
should I be more open with my mom? Like I'm
really worried about her? And Giles is like, if you
tell her anything, it's done.

Speaker 1 (51:12):
Game over.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
So she is like, she already has such a tough
time opening up to her. She's just barely mentioned that
she's like in danger in this way. And I feel
like a part of me knows that, like a part
of Angel knows that Buffy would not have told Joyce
any of this. How did you feel about the moment?
Oh well, how did you feel about that moment? Or

(51:34):
do you want? Or I was gonna move?

Speaker 1 (51:36):
It was excellent. I think this is an extremely strong
Joyce episode across the board. I think it's an amazing
Joyce episode. Obviously, that moment scary, tense, oh my gosh,
it's gonna happen, But then the conversation between Buffy and
Joyce after the fact is absolutely excellent. I think one,

(52:01):
I love how Joyce is very open about the fact
that she's like I kind of like don't know how
to deal with this. Yeah, like, this is my first time,
really ever having to handle a situation like this, and
I like Joyce's rightfully upset, like when she says when
Buffy says something like, you know, I made a mistake, like,

(52:23):
can we move on from that? And Joyce's like, you
had sex with someone that you did not see fit
to tell me you were even dating. Yeah, Like, clearly
you knew that this was a sketchy situation because you
didn't talk to me about it. We can't just pretend
this never happened. But then for all of that anger

(52:44):
and frustration to boil down to I care about you
so much. I love you more than anything in this world,
and like no amount of you shoving me out of
your life is going to change that.

Speaker 2 (52:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
It's a very strong scene. I love especially My favorite
exchange in that scene is is she says something about
She says the line of you, it's like the boy
you didn't even see fit to tell me you were dating,
And Buffy responds, I can't tell you everything, and she says,
how about anything anything? This poor woman?

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Yeah, her daughter is she's Youah, Yes, her daughter is.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Clearly going through something extreme. Every single day she got
kicked out of her last school, she's like failing all
her classes. Now she keeps cutting class, she keeps like
being in dangerous situations, and yet always tells her mom
things are fine, don't worry about it, refuses to say
anything to her. And now this sketchy old man is

(53:39):
on her lawn being like, by the way, I fucked
your daughter, and she's like, I didn't even know you
were seeing this guy.

Speaker 2 (53:46):
I so agree. I think in the scene initially makes
what I every single time I watch this, I initially
brestle because I'm like, god, Joyce is being so harsh,
But honestly, I think she's been so real. I think
this kind of station is intensely real. And like she's like,
I'm not gonna lie, like I don't know what to

(54:07):
say to you in this moment, like and like you said,
like she knew that something was wrong enough to not
tell her mom and you know, and then it ends
with like I'm always gonna be here for you, like
no matter what, Like you can push me out all
you want, but I'm not leaving, like I'm here for you,

(54:29):
and I'm here to like help you pick up these pieces,
and like like this was your first time dealing with this,
is my first time dealing with this. We'll work it through.
Like That's what That's what makes that scene turn around
so much for me, is I'm like, Wow, this is
really a woman who's trying so hard to relate to
this girl who's struggling so much.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
And I I like, absolutely adore that scene. And the
core of Joyce's frustration is not you had sex, Yeah,
frustration is you will not tell me anything that is
going on with you.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
And so because of that, I'm absolutely powerless to help
you when you get in scary situations. And clearly this
is a scary situation. This man is outside of our house. Yeah,
And like, if you had been talking to me about this,
we could have completely prevented this, or I could at
least like have the information I need to handle it
better right now. Like, because you are not sharing information,

(55:24):
I therefore am unable to protect you as a parent. Yeah,
I love you. Joyce. Is a great Choice episode.

Speaker 2 (55:35):
A great Joyce episode. And I mean.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
Because even what were you gonna say?

Speaker 2 (55:43):
I don't know what were you going to say?

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Okay, because even at the beginning when Buffy is like
remember Angel and Joyce is like the college aged guy
that was over here. Yeah, Buffy says something about like, yeah,
you know, like we kind of if we're involved, and
now he's gotten really intense. Joyce does not shame her
in that moment, like joy is really trying to like

(56:07):
be respectful and not like judge her daughter and make
her daughter feel stupid or shamed in any way, like
she is trying in this episode to not come down
too hard on Buffy. But then it gets to a
point where it's like this man trying to walk into
our house, like, Wow, what the hell's going on in
your life?

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Yeah, like you were hanging out with this this such
a creepy guy, And she's like, well he changed, she changed,
And it's like, but she did, she still didn't know.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
Yeah, Like if he was so different before, why did
you tell me you were dating? Like, if he was
such a great guy when you were together, why didn't
you tell me about it?

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Yeah? You know, I shut up to my mother, And
every time I watch this episode, I think about my
mom because our main rule growing up was if you
feel like you can't tell me, you shouldn't be doing it.
My mom, I feel like, you know, she went through
phases of like what was allowed and what wasn't, and

(57:05):
you know, like I feel like she was like super
lenient with my my siblings, but she for everything, and
even to this day, she's like, if you wouldn't tell
me about it, you really shouldn't be doing it, you know,
not to this day. I'm an adult and I had
make my own choices, but you know what I mean,
Like so when I was a teenager and I was
like faced with these questions, I'd be like, well, shit,

(57:27):
like if I did this, I could not tell my
mom And that's my line, that is my line. But
I mean I wasn't slaying vampires or like dating someone
who was two hundred years old. So yeah, but it's tough.
It's tough, God Joyce. And that's something I love so
much too, is she's not mad that she had sex,

(57:49):
Like she's not mad that she's growing up. It's just that,
you know, everything got to be so big when Joyce
could have handled it with her like well before and
like she know, like Buffy knows that she would have
been there for her. And it's wonderful to see Joyce

(58:09):
be like, but I'm here for you, and you can't
push me out and like we're going to work through this. Yeah,
God freak.

Speaker 1 (58:19):
I remember those moments of like messing up as a
teenager and being like my parents are going to be
so mad, Like this is going to break our relationship forever. Yeah,
and after you know whatever scolding whatever like punishment I got,
then having a moment with them where they were like, anyways,

(58:39):
like I love you and we're going to return to
normalcy now, yeah. And I felt so like relieved and
safe and cared for in those moments that I love that.
That's how this scene ends. Yeah, Like yes, Joyce like
reads Buffy the Riot Act, and then it ends with
her being like essentially like how did I do being

(59:00):
like I love you so much, I care about you
so much, And how did that go? Like I've never
had to do that before, just like the return to normalcy,
knowing I have said all I need to say, Yeah,
and there's no use beating a dead horse, like we're
gonna be mother and daughter and go about our lives now.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
God, great joy stuff and not could you imagine being
in Joyce's shoes and like you know your daughter, your
daughter is struggling so much, and the most information you
ever get is from this creepy ass guy. Like I,
this is like such a worldview crashing day for Joyce.

Speaker 1 (59:43):
Oh if I yes, if my daughter yeah had told
me my teenage daughter, I've been like, hey, you know
that guy hear all clearly in his mid twenties who
was over here, so like he's been acting kind of weird.
I first of all would have blown up. Then Oh,

(01:00:04):
but like fine, Joyce tries to be naishmenttal she keeps
lit on it. And then I run into this creepy ass.
He's outside my house. He's begging to see my daughter
and then says to me, I can't get her to
talk to me since we made love. I would I'd
be seeing black exactly. I'd I wouldn't remember a thing

(01:00:25):
until I was watching their blood off my hands, like
it would be crazy, fucking sicko.

Speaker 2 (01:00:35):
No, sick fuck. This is fucked up.

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
When he kills Jenny and then camps outside the Summer's
residence so that he can watch how Buffy and Willow
react to the news. Whoa sick foxic fuck crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
And obviously this is this guy's fucking freak. This guy's
a fucking freak, Like I'm gonna kill him, but you know,
I there is something really gorgeous and also like I
can tell that this director is a director of photography

(01:01:11):
by like looking in and like wordlessly seeing these these
girls is grief. I think it's incredibly effective, and also
it's so interesting, Like hearing about a loss, I feel
like some things become like so crystal clear, but other

(01:01:34):
things are like such a blur and you just remember
that you fell to the ground or that Joyce came in,
and like the words are maybe necessarily something that you
might remember. I feel like this is something that is
a really gorgeous and like really honest look at two
people grieving, obviously through the lens of that fucking freak angel,

(01:01:58):
but I really love that moment and it feels really
raw and really gorgeous.

Speaker 1 (01:02:04):
I agree. I love when pieces of media do this
where they don't get bogged down by the specifics of
like what should the dialogue be? Yeah, and it said,
just let the emotion convey itself because situations like this,
the dialogue is kind of never going to be perfect,

(01:02:25):
because this is an impossible situation. And I think they
really free themselves up and they make it much more
powerful to have it be muted talking and we're just
seeing the emotion played out. Yeah, a girl. Everyone in
the scene is acting. I have to give my gentleman's
over the hat. Alison Hannigan is act her her like

(01:02:47):
starting to tear up and saying no while she's on
the phone. Yeah, is the most affecting moment of the
entire episode. Yeah, which is why I can't fucking imagine
if it was Oz who died. Oh, Like, her being
upset with her teacher is having that big of an
effect on me. I I would.

Speaker 2 (01:03:04):
Say, sorry, cameras can Seriously, the Carriage Show is canceled. Also,
I would like go back in time.

Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
Yeah. Killing Actually, we're going to need a spin off.
He's alive, and he's alive, alternate universe. He's alive.

Speaker 2 (01:03:23):
God, And would I trade if we were in the
alternate universe and Oz died what Jenny went on and
we were having the same conversation, would I trade them?
Would I trade them? I don't know, And I am
that's not the question we should be asking me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Well I very much am. I'm saying like, for me,
it's not like a a a Jenny for Oz, it
is a giles grief for Willows. Willowsand and as I mentioned,
I as Ian alread can handle as hard as it is.
I can handle Giles's grief. I don't know if I
could handle Willow's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Gree And I mean, hear me out. Let's talk about
the patriarchy. I feel like, and I mean obviously Giles
is incredibly devastated. I feel like the patriarchy doesn't let
men feel their feelings out loud very much. So I
feel like in my life when I've seen like the
men in my life grieve, they kind of and I mean,

(01:04:25):
we see Giles, he's really frozen. He's really frozen, and
we see him break down. But a young girl does
not have those social pressures on her. A young girl
like she she feels her feelings and she feels them
out loud. So that is going to be harder to
watch than a man with the social pressure of the

(01:04:47):
patriarchy on his back. And of course he is certainly
feeling this and he's certainly grieving, but it looks very.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Different and also just like from a storytelling perspective, hard
to ma forward with the story. Yeah, totally, Like we
can't have Willow participating in adventures, Like, I don't know.
Grief is weird and is different for every person. Yes,
but I do feel like, knowing what we know about Willow,

(01:05:14):
I would have a hard time believing, even if she
was like somber about it, that she was like on
a Scooby adventure like next week or the week after. Yeah,
I don't know. That might just be me.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
Yeah, Like, how would this seventeen year old girl who
just you know, lost the first person beyond Buffy and
Xander who's been like nice to her, how would she
be going on adventures in two weeks? I don't know. Yeah,
I don't know that I would feel comfortable watching or
do it? Can we talk? I love the stalking b

(01:05:51):
roll at the beginning of this episode. Yeah, I love watching,
especially true this squad now that Jenny is here. First
of all, Jenny and Willow bitching at the table. Dang it,
I Cordelia, I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:06:08):
Sorry, sorry forgetting this.

Speaker 2 (01:06:12):
Yes, Cordelia and Willow bitching at the table at the Bronze.
I love that these two have become like little besties
like they love to I don't know. When I see them,
I can tell they are like shooting the ship in
such a deep way. I love to watch them interact

(01:06:33):
with each other. I love these two so much and
I want them to be little besties and then our
two party girls, Xander and Buffy being the ones to
like hold it down on the downs floor. I just
and I can tell that, you know, they have had
such a tough couple of weeks and to like watch
them have fun and party and like be young for

(01:06:56):
I love the Stocking bee roll at the at the
beginning of this episode is so sweet to me. I
love it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
Also watching that was like, do you think Xander gets
PTSD about the last time he slow danced with Buffy
at the Bronze. He's like, oh no.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Hell no, I bet, I bet, And I mean it's
these two are the party girls of the group. They
love to dance, these two. I bet it happens all
the time. But now, but now Buffy she understands to
keep her destince. She she's they leave room for Jesus now,
Like they're not dancing on each other, They're just dancing

(01:07:37):
with each other.

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
Oh my god, So where if you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Were at this, if you were at the Stocking, if
you were in the Stocking d roll, where would you be? Oh?
I dance for Yeah, I'm dancing with you, of course,
of course, of course.

Speaker 1 (01:07:52):
Yeah we can. We can talk anywhere. I know we
can only dance at the bront Brons.

Speaker 2 (01:07:59):
Come on, come on, I love that moment so much
very oh ahead, please?

Speaker 1 (01:08:05):
Yeah what were you saying?

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
There's this moment in when they're leaving the Bronze and
they're like walking out in slow motion being so sweet together,
and they walk by Angel feeding on a woman, and
I'm like, if I saw if I am Buffy and
Angel is my ex boyfriend, I feel like I'd know
the top of his head. I feel like I'd be like,

(01:08:27):
that's Angel, I know it. Like I feel like sometimes
you can like feel when people are around, you know
what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:08:33):
Like I think she has to have like a spider
sense about this.

Speaker 2 (01:08:36):
Yes, literally, like a girl is literally dying and you're
two feet away, Buffy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
If I'm remembering anything about the Pilot, it's that Giles
takes up to the balcony of the Bronze and she
gets the taking the Empires spot them out.

Speaker 2 (01:08:49):
Yeah, hey, she's not on her a game right now.

Speaker 1 (01:08:54):
He's es mostly fragile. Oh that's been happening. Yeah, Also,
correct me if I'm wrong. If the woman that Buffy,
that Buffy part me, the woman that Angel is feeding
on is blonde? Right? Is that correct? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
I felt like she was blonde, but I might be
making that up if she is blonde. I posit that
every time that Angel feeds to feed, he goes after
a woman who looks like.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
When I wonder if we could find the picture when he.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Is killing to psychologically torture Buffy, then you know he'll
kill whoever is gonna most effectively do.

Speaker 2 (01:09:25):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
But like the two times that we have seen him
feed as Angel, both in Innocence and this episode when
he's just drinking the blood of a random woman, she
is always a white, blonde woman.

Speaker 4 (01:09:35):
Blonde.

Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
I feel like it is it's a Buffy obsession. Your
Buffy obsession is showing it might be too dark. I
can't supertell what. Okay, the woman is so in the
shadows that you can't supertell. But she looks like she's
a brunette. But I'm gonna say she's a blonde but.

Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Blonde.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
Yeah, she's a blondey.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
Freak.

Speaker 1 (01:10:05):
Yeah. Sicko perver siico perver.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
No, Seriously, any is such a sigle perver this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
Episode, Psycho. Yeah, all right, what are your thoughts on
the episode being called Passion? What are your thoughts on
the musings about passion that are in this episode?

Speaker 2 (01:10:26):
Yeah, I'm like, I obviously like it from a like
you know, Angel is passionate about playing with his food, Like,
I think that's fun. I think his musings about passion
like don't necessarily speak to me personally, And maybe that's

(01:10:46):
just because I'm tuning out David Barnett Briannas. But I
could not tell you how I feel about his musings
about passion other than when he says like the ecstasy
of grief like that one stuck out to me. But
I don't think I have I care much for his
musings about passion. What do you think? Do you love him?

Speaker 1 (01:11:08):
We don't see eye on this all.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
Okay, I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
I'm trying to get I'm trying to I'm trying to
have an English class happen right here. Why do you
think the episode is called Passion? Why do you think
those musings are in there?

Speaker 2 (01:11:20):
Oh? Why if I'm just going to think about this
whole like the reason for the show, it's life and death,
and what makes life worth living is passion and you know,
love and loss and grief like that's all. Like passion
is the thing that gives life meaning.

Speaker 1 (01:11:42):
Hell yeah, that's what I say. Without passion would be
truly dead.

Speaker 2 (01:11:48):
Yeah, and I know the angel says that I remember
he does. Let me take that again.

Speaker 1 (01:11:55):
I I like when an episode has a thesis statement,
like I feel like Lie to Me had a very
strong thesis statement. I feel like some as simply required
chadad Taking had a very strong thesis statement, and I
feel like this episode has a very strong thesis statement,
which is in this episode we see all of the

(01:12:16):
horrible pain that comes from passion, where it's very much
like if you didn't care about anything, none of.

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
This would be truly dead. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:12:27):
Yes, it is. All of these really horrific emotions that
these characters are feeling that are causing them to act
in such reckless and dangerous ways are due to their passion.
And wouldn't their lives be easier and less painful if
they didn't have passion. But then at the end of
the day, without passion would be truly dead. I think

(01:12:50):
it's an interesting look at the benefits of passion by
showing us the downside. I think that's kind of fascinating.
And it is like the whole reason that Angel is
even evil is because of his and Buffy's passion. It's
because of the love that she had for him. Yeah,

(01:13:10):
and the episode is kind of positing in a world
where like love leads to heartbreak, where connections lead to
death and loss, where like happiness leads to grieving, is
it even worth it to have those emotions? And this
episode shows us how terrible all of those things are
and then ends itself by saying, and yes, it is

(01:13:31):
worth it.

Speaker 2 (01:13:31):
God, that's wonderful. That's a that's a wonderful thought.

Speaker 1 (01:13:34):
And that's why I like the musings. I think the
musings are very great.

Speaker 2 (01:13:38):
No, I like that that's wonderful. I mean I totally
get that. I think like doing it from Angel's perspective
is and definitely a fun take on that because it's
like you can also like maybe even look at it
through like he is looking at these humans through like
a lens of someone studying them and stocking them, and

(01:14:02):
how at every turn they choose their passion and they
choose these things that they know are going to hurt them.
I think that's fun.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
And I also think having a man who is dead, say,
without passion, we'd be truly dead. That Like, the reason
that Angel plays with his food toys with people tortures
them is that's what gives him a sense of life.

Speaker 2 (01:14:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:14:23):
Yeah, he is not actually alive anymore, but he gets
his sense of life and purpose out of not just feeding,
but of inflicting torture on people.

Speaker 2 (01:14:35):
Yeah. Man, this writer, he's got a poet's mind. Tay King,
I think tay King episodes. I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:14:43):
I feel like Tay King. And you know he only
wrote the two, but both of them, I feel like,
have a clear thesis statement and both of them are
examining because some of smply required is all about love
and how love can turn into something deeply armful and evil. Yes,
oh my god, I think both of them are examining

(01:15:05):
like a core facet of the human experience and asking, like,
what happens if this is taken too far?

Speaker 2 (01:15:11):
Damn, you've really taken me to English class today. Thank you.
I love that. That's great. I like wasn't thinking about
thinking about that at all. Gosh, it's so wonderful to
speak to you about these cool things.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Thank you, it's you. I love this is one of
the best episodes of the entire show.

Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
Oh, I love that.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
I'm not saying it's not. We already said our top three.
I'm not saying tack in my top three, but like.

Speaker 2 (01:15:39):
I totally feel bad.

Speaker 1 (01:15:41):
I think this is one of the strongest episodes of
the show.

Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Yeah, and I mean it it is incredible. It's very clear.
It is incredibly clear about what it's saying, and everything
in it I feel like serves a purpose. And I mean,
it's so wonderful to watch the show lay out these
bricks and it's so cool to think about where, like

(01:16:06):
to think about when they decided to do X, Y
or Z, because this path has been laid out before us,
you know what I mean. Like, and it's so cool
to see, you know, all these things come together. It's

(01:16:26):
not even done.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
We're still in the thick of it. Baby, it just
keeps going.

Speaker 2 (01:16:29):
I think of it. Yeah, no, seriously, And I mean, like,
I had like such a moment this morning watching this episode.
I've been thinking about everything else that happens going forward
and how so many plots are still ongoing, and I'm like,
where are we on you. I'm excited. I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (01:16:48):
I'm spoilers, and I feel like we are in the
phase of the show now where the show really starts
firing at all cylinders, really starts asking itself, like how
far art can go and what it can become.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:03):
I feel like just every few weeks we have another
thing happen.

Speaker 2 (01:17:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:08):
I don't even know how to word this where I
am just like, I'm so excited for our first time
viewers to like watch this episode and see how they
respond to this and see how they feel about the
show going in this direction and maturing into something new. Yeah,
I just like I felt that way about I Love

(01:17:28):
the Kendra reveale. I felt that way about the Kendra reveal.

Speaker 2 (01:17:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
No, of course, I really feel that way about Angel
becoming and jealous, like that is the major one.

Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
And then I feel that way about Jenny being killed off. Yeah,
all these things that are so shocking and so unexpected
and so not. This is just another way of saying
unexpected but so not what you would have thought this
show would be brave enough to do when you were watching,
like never kill a boy on the first date.

Speaker 2 (01:17:58):
No, seriously, God and I mean, I know, we keep
saying it, but this show has so many turning points,
and it just to me they're not afraid to innovate.
It's incredibly brave of them to kill off a main

(01:18:21):
character too, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:18:24):
Make another main character evil, Yes.

Speaker 2 (01:18:26):
To make another main character evil, to tell us these
stories about grief and love and loss and passion and.

Speaker 1 (01:18:36):
You know, do it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:41):
It's an incredibly brave television show. Like I think, in
like a lesser television show, any of these moments could
have been like a jump of the shark and like
come out for the worst. But like they're not afraid
to do these maybe seemingly crazy things or things that
even like I think about how I mean, writers were

(01:19:01):
pushing back on making Angel evil, and like, you know,
the showrunner was brave enough to be like, actually, like
I think this is important. I don't know, there's just
so many moments in this show, and especially in the
last like god like freaking ten episodes that I'm like,
it's like they are every thing we keep turning. Yeah,

(01:19:25):
we're on a maze. We're in a maze.

Speaker 1 (01:19:27):
Yeah, it's a wild ride.

Speaker 2 (01:19:28):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:19:29):
Right, especially this this stretcher in right, now I feel
like is the first true wild ride of the show
and there are many more to come. But like the
back half of this season, they are going crazy crazy episodes.
I also love that, like, yes, the show is getting
more mature and it's getting darker and they're not afraid
to kill the main character. But also like, we just

(01:19:49):
came off of one of the funniest episodes so far.

Speaker 2 (01:19:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:19:52):
Like the show also never much like Angel regained his
sense of whimsy in this episode. According to Dials, the
show never does lose its sense of whimsy and isn't
afraid to be like Yeah. Also, in this episode, there's
a plot line of Cordelia being so afraid that he's
gonna get break in her car, which is so funny

(01:20:13):
because that's just true of any car. It's so good
because like that is the risk you run anytime you're
in a car. Is like someone could break into your car.
But she is so apparent Angel is going to break
into my car. We have to put a spell on it.

Speaker 2 (01:20:30):
No. I love that part so a It's like I
feel like I would also if Angel is in my
car'd be like, we gotta do this, but my car.
But it also is like, this girl is so self
obsessed that she's like, well, he's gonna come after me.
I gave him that one time.

Speaker 1 (01:20:47):
He's gonna get in my car.

Speaker 2 (01:20:49):
I love it. I just love it.

Speaker 1 (01:20:51):
Also, Like, if I know, one thing about the Chase
family is that they're rich enough, they have a garage,
so like her car is in the garage and he
can't get in the garage. And then if she's out
of the garage in her car, simply if you see
Angel coming drive away, he's not as fast as your car.
Oh oh my god, so good.

Speaker 2 (01:21:11):
But I'm glad they do the they do the spell
on her car.

Speaker 1 (01:21:14):
And I love that she brings it up like at
every point she can't.

Speaker 2 (01:21:19):
No, I do too. I saw online that some people
don't like that, and I'm like, actually, shut the fuck up.
I know I agree, and I it is.

Speaker 1 (01:21:30):
It's one like something you don't really think about when
Angel becomes evil. There's so much other stuff to process
that it doesn't even cross your mind, like, oh, yeah,
he can get into their houses. He's been in their
houses before, and to have that be kind of the
main worry of this episode. I just I'm glad that

(01:21:51):
that it is such a big deal because it would
be a big deal. Like Angel has full access to
Buffy's room. He's been in there many times. She has
woken up before with him in her room. That needs
to be considered now that he's evil, and especially the
reveal because I had kind of forgotten that he went
into her Willow's room and light of me, Yes, you're so,

(01:22:12):
the reveal of her dead fish, and then this sick
fuck drawing pictures of Buffy sleeping, drawing pictures of Willow's fish,
drawing a picture of Joyce Summer's asleep.

Speaker 2 (01:22:23):
Uh oh, girl, can we talk about his like charcoal drawings?
Like when did he think this up? He's an artist,
He's got a passion for drawing.

Speaker 1 (01:22:33):
This is very believable to mess mister like Brudy Woe
is Me has been living alone for two hundred years.
I know he was drawing.

Speaker 2 (01:22:43):
Oh, I know he.

Speaker 1 (01:22:44):
Was drawing, and I know he had some bad music
that he was writing. Of course, Yeah, he's praised with
you know, he draws Buffy sleeping, he draws joy sleeping,
he draws Willows fish. And then I love that he
kills Jenny. He puts Jenny and Giles's bed he gives

(01:23:06):
Giles Champagne has roses leading up the stairs, and then,
just in case Giles didn't get the message from all
of that, draws a picture of Jenny's dead body for
good measure and also leaves it in his apartment like
the actual dead body is already there. Damn, this is overkill.

Speaker 2 (01:23:23):
He's such a romantic even in his angealous ways. Like Jesus,
I also okay when Giles comes to like fuck up
the warehouse. I loved to watch Angel and Buffy fight again.

Speaker 1 (01:23:40):
Uh huh.

Speaker 2 (01:23:41):
I think there's you know, after the stuff with the judge.
I feel like Angel was like taking the fight really
seriously and it was like his first time being evil.
You can see how much fun Angel is having fighting her,
and obviously this is fun to watch, but like it
is like like Buffy is like so serious about kicking

(01:24:04):
this guy's ass, Like she like stabs like his feet
like through the bars and like grabs his like like
she is very seriously like going to kick his ass,
and like I think it's closer to killing him than
ever before, and the only thing that saves like saves
him is the fucking fire that Giles started.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
I agree, I think she was going to kill him.
I think in that moment, if she had gotten the
upper hand, she would have killed him.

Speaker 2 (01:24:30):
She would have killed him. But like, Angel is still
like having so much fun, Like he knows that, you know,
she got really close, but he is like giggling the
whole time. Oh my god, it's thrilling. It is thrilling
to watch. I also loved seeing Giles really get a
few good swings in with this baseball bat that's literally

(01:24:53):
on fire. I was I was really gagged. I was
really gagged.

Speaker 1 (01:24:57):
I love to see it too, I really love to
see it.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
I also love the moment where like Drew goes to
like intervene and Spike says something along along the lines
of like hey, no.

Speaker 1 (01:25:09):
No, no, like you can't fight until he tags you in.

Speaker 2 (01:25:12):
Yeah, it's not nice because he's like also like so
sick of Angel that he's like, no, we're not gonna
save him. He has made his bed. He's gonna lie
in it. Because they are also like or at least
Spike is certainly like dude, are you kidding like you
are You're being messy? Like that isn't fun.

Speaker 1 (01:25:30):
Yeah, No, Spike gets pissed off that he's like, you
were in a room with Buffy, she was asleep and
instead of killing her, yeah, you drew a picture of
her and left it at her bedside. Like he's so
over Angel shit.

Speaker 2 (01:25:42):
Yeah, I.

Speaker 1 (01:25:45):
H We've talked about them a lot this threutle. I'm
obsessed with.

Speaker 2 (01:25:51):
This.

Speaker 1 (01:25:52):
There are so many gags of the season, but one
of the gags of the season is watching Spike so
emasculated and then just watching him become bitter and angry
and watching Drusilla start to openly prefer Angel.

Speaker 2 (01:26:09):
Yes, seriously, it whoa in schoolhard?

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
Literally, who would have ever seen this coming?

Speaker 2 (01:26:16):
Girl?

Speaker 1 (01:26:16):
It is so good. Their dynamic is so fun, And yes,
I agree Spike being so over Angel shit this entire episode,
to the point that he's like, no, Drew, we're not
saving him. Like he got himself into this mess, he
can get himself out. Meanwhile, Drew being so into Angel
ye kind of thinking, like all the stuff he's doing

(01:26:37):
is fun, like conniving with him to figure out what
Jenny was talking about, setting the trap for Jenny and
then her trying to get Spike to feel better. But
then when Angel comes in the room and basically says
to Spike's face, like I'm fucking your girlfriend says like,
if there's anything you need help with, let me know.

(01:26:59):
I mean anything beyond what I'm already doing. Andre's illustrat
up laughs.

Speaker 2 (01:27:03):
Jade like laughs at it. She's like, I love when
you two fight over me. Like she is, like she's
having fun.

Speaker 1 (01:27:09):
Yeah that she's like not trying to comfort Spike because
she cares about him and wants him to feel better.
It is this weird like I want to make sure
that you are still interested in me. Yeah, because I
really am getting off on the fact that like two
men are using over and hate each other.

Speaker 2 (01:27:28):
She's an Eva.

Speaker 1 (01:27:34):
This episode comes out the seventeenth. That's a lie. It
comes out. This episode comes on Christmas Eve.

Speaker 2 (01:27:42):
Christmas Eve.

Speaker 1 (01:27:44):
Wait, we gotta talk about the fact that it's Christmas Eve.
Wait a second, Wait a second, way in a second,
I should have check this is our Christmas special rip
Jenny Calendar, Merry Christmas.

Speaker 4 (01:27:56):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:27:57):
Go wait a second. Well, now I'm in farrist. We're
so deep in the episode we never even mentioned that
it's Christmas Eve.

Speaker 2 (01:28:07):
Should we like record something that goes in the beginning, like, hey, yo,
also we're coming out to you two hours into the
episode and we forgot that it was Christmas.

Speaker 1 (01:28:16):
I think that could be fun. Let's do that. Let's
do that, okay, and now we're going to record the
message that you heard at the beginning everyone. So that's
when that happened, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (01:28:30):
Think about Yeah, I got already already brought it up.
Game of Thrones is famous for killing off main characters.

Speaker 1 (01:28:35):
And I mean, like, Jelly Calendar died first, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:28:40):
We need to put some respect on her name. First,
of her name, Jenny Calendar, Yes, exactly, Jesus.

Speaker 1 (01:28:53):
How do you feel about that cute puppy, About that
cute puppy that Juseill is trying to get Spike to eat? Well,
how do you feel about Xander in this episode, specifically
his reaction to the news that miss Calendar is dead.

Speaker 2 (01:29:08):
Yeah, I mean, listen, it's such a huge fucking I
told you so. But it's also like, to me, Xander,
you were mad because this guy's dangerous. You're mad because
this guy was taking your girl and not I still

(01:29:29):
like enjoy the dynamic that this brings into the group,
where it's like, okay, like, let's go fucking kill this guy. Like,
I don't know why we're wasting time, Like I think that,
UH like to have a group of people and not
to have one person say something like this, I feel
like something is missing. But if somebody's me mad, I'm like, Okay,
fucking Xander. Of course, of course you hated him, you

(01:29:50):
were jelly Xander. It makes the most sense that he's
the one doing it because he has been the one
who has hated Angel the most, and obviously his reasons
were nefarious because he wanted his girl. But I know,
I've seen a lot of people online kind of say, like,
Xander is so off base for doing this, And while

(01:30:11):
I agree, I still enjoy the dynamic that this adds
to the group. Catch my drifts, Yeah, do you feel differently?

Speaker 1 (01:30:20):
I also don't agree with those people online at all.
I think he's supremely on base for this. Angel just
fucking killed someone, Like I I understand, and I agree
that like Xander when he's like I hated Angel before
anyone else did. It was because you were jealous of Angel,
Like I fully do see that. I think he's being

(01:30:41):
tactless about it, Like I think he certainly could have
a lot more tact in this moment, but Jenny Calendar
is dead, like, I think he is completely valid in
these feelings a few weeks ago Buffy Foley had and
it is like fel I completely understand where Buffy's coming

(01:31:03):
from too. Why she couldn't kill Angel? Why, like that
was not something she was able to do a few
weeks ago. But also like a few weeks ago, Buffy
was in a position where she could have taken Angel out.
We knew that he was evil, we know that he's
a demon. She did not take him out, and now
our friend is dead, and I a thousand percent see
where he's coming from. And yes, did he originally hate

(01:31:23):
Angel because Angel was moving in on his girl? That
is true. Is he being inconsiderate and how he's wording
this that is also true. Do I understand why Buffy
couldn't kill Angel? Yes, But I also think that if
anyone thinks like Xander is super out of line here,
I am kind of like I think you were a
hatred of this character might be blinding your vision because

(01:31:46):
their friend is dead, like Angel just killed their friend.
And also like Teresa died two weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (01:31:53):
Yes, absolutely, like that's their classmate. And I agree with
what you're saying, and I think that that really puts
I think those words that you're using are really right.
It's really tactless, and so it like feels really bad.
And I mean, like, also, but he has been the
one since the beginning who has been like the most

(01:32:16):
weirded out by hanging out with a vampire. He's like,
this does not fit into the worldview that we live in, y'all. Like,
and I hate to say, I told you so. He's
the one who's been saying this, you know, yeah, And
I it is really tactless, though, and.

Speaker 1 (01:32:32):
I like that it's tactless, not as like a real person. Obviously,
in real life, i'd be like, you have more tact
But from a storytelling perspective, everyone is in an extremely
emotionally volatile and extremely emotionally vulnerable place. If Xander suddenly
started talking like a very mature adult and like considering

(01:32:52):
everyone's perspectives and lived experiences in this moment, it would
be so unrealistic and corny to me for him to
be like, Hey, I hate to I told you so,
but like, I fucking told you so. I said he
was an asshole from the beginning, and at least somebody's
gonna kill now. Yeah, yeah, I think like damn yeah,
when people are grieving, they really are saying fucked up shit,

(01:33:16):
like you do not have the time of capacity to
be considering other people too much. It's just like this
is the point that I need to get across, and
I'm getting it across however I can.

Speaker 2 (01:33:25):
Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. Damn, I super agree.

Speaker 1 (01:33:31):
I love that scene. I think that scene is great
me too.

Speaker 2 (01:33:36):
It's also like, I don't know, to see the kids
kind of come together and they're like, Okay, we gotta
find Giles. We gotta fix this shit. Like we know
that Giles is a loose cannon right now, and we're
gonna like bolster him and be there for him, and
we're gonna we're gonna work this out. Like yeah, I

(01:33:57):
love to see like, you know, cordially coming through with
the wheels. I love, you know, seeing all like these
four really like take their moment to grieve and also
know that they've got work to do and they get
it done. It's really wonderful. It's like autobots roll out
like they are really there are people on there. There
are men on missions. I'm serious.

Speaker 1 (01:34:19):
Yeah, I agree, autobots rolls.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
Seriously, I don't know anything about the transforms.

Speaker 4 (01:34:27):
And then.

Speaker 1 (01:34:29):
For this to all culminate in a very angry scene
in the factory. Giles is very angry at Angel, Buffy's
very angry at Angel. It's a lot of you know, anger.
And then outside, Giles immediately lashes out of Buffy's says,
what are you doing here? This wasn't your fight, and.

Speaker 2 (01:34:46):
Then Buffy wishes her yeah, and then.

Speaker 1 (01:34:47):
Buffy punches him and knocks him down, only to result
in both of them sobbing and hugging each other and
her saying I can't do this alone. That's another reason
that I like that Xander is an asshole, because that
is true to life. When you are grieving, you get
so irritable and angry, and you lash out at people
who you are not actually angry at because you are

(01:35:08):
angry at the situation and you need somewhere to put
that anger. So you ended up putting it on someone
who does not deserve it.

Speaker 2 (01:35:16):
They do.

Speaker 1 (01:35:18):
That's passion, Like, that is what passion causes you to do.
You are filled with all these feelings and you're like,
I don't know where to how to process this or
where to channel it, so it ends up just shooting
at everyone around you.

Speaker 2 (01:35:31):
I love that moment so much with Giles and Buffy,
And I mean it's these two like who like like
Giles and like he like he knew that there's no
way he's getting out of that unhurt, and Buffy knows
that the only way that she can get him out
is like through means of force. Yeah, And it is

(01:35:54):
like incredibly raw and like the first time you see
Giles really break down about it, and also Buffy grieve
what almost happened, and like she's like, don't leave me,
I need you, Like, oh my god. It's so special
and like so awful, Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:36:17):
And for it to be it's neither one of them
comforting the other in the sense that like neither one
of them is like yeah, saying it's gonna be okay,
hug any other. It is like we are both going
through such a horrible shit right now, we just have
to hang on to each other right now.

Speaker 2 (01:36:33):
Yeah, yeah, excellent, that's father daughter.

Speaker 1 (01:36:38):
Oh my god, well yeah, do you have other shit passion?

Speaker 2 (01:36:47):
I Oh, this episode is devastating. I hate this episode.
It seriously makes me stare out a window. I love
this episode, but I hate this episode, but it's wonderful,
and I think that while it's difficult to watch, like,
you're so right, this show is incredibly high stakes. It

(01:37:08):
only makes sense that it would affect our main cast
like this in this way. And I think that that
makes the stakes even scarier and makes Angel even scarier,
And like, we've only been theorizing him, theorizing about him
for so long, and of course he would come to
get us in this way. And this episode like sticks

(01:37:30):
out to me so much, and even though I try
and forget about it, but it's wonderful and I really
love it. What about yo?

Speaker 1 (01:37:37):
I love this episode. I love Buffy when it's like silly, fun, kooky. Yes,
But what really set Buffy apart to me as a teenager,
and what really kept it front of mind for me
after all these years, was how willing Buffy was to
take big swings, yes, but cifically to really examine how

(01:38:02):
those big swings affect its characters. You know, there's shows
that will take they'll do a big twist because they
want to keep the audience on its toes. Yeah, Buffy, Yes,
it does big twists, but it does twist specifically because
they are interested in the humanity of these characters. Yeah,

(01:38:24):
and how that humanity is affected by the world around them.
They are much more interested in that than like, let's
pull the rug out from under our audience, and so,
I you know, I love Xander being an asshole. I
love Giles being reckless and not considering what would happen
to these kids under his care if he were to die.

(01:38:44):
I love Buffy punching Giles to the ground when he
is grieving. Like I love these characters being messy and
tactless and rude to each other as they are all
trying to grapple with this incredibly scary and tragic thing
that has just happened to them. I think that is
so fascinating. I love when this show explores those kinds

(01:39:06):
of emotions. Yeah, and why did Joyce Summers have so
many damn keys on her key ring? Girl? How many
art galleries do you run? She had like eighteen keys
on that thing? What the going on there?

Speaker 2 (01:39:24):
Kind of spooky?

Speaker 1 (01:39:26):
No, I wonder.

Speaker 2 (01:39:28):
When I see an adult with that many keys, I'm like,
you're a drug dealer, for surely I have a ton
of keys. I have a lot of keys. I actually
don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:39:40):
I was like, girl, you should have four keys tops, Like,
why is it so hard for you to get in
your front door key, house key, like maybe wilbox key,
work key, mailbox key, yeah, four come on. Although I've
seen her mailbox. It's one of those ones that you
just pull open. It doesn't have a lock on it.

Speaker 2 (01:39:58):
Yeah, but I mean maybe the bucks for the for
her work.

Speaker 1 (01:40:01):
She's got a po box ex. Actually yeah, okay, okay,
well there's your there's your four joy joys.

Speaker 2 (01:40:07):
Maybe she has like an office door that's different than
like the like door to the the art gallery, and
maybe she has like a desk drawer.

Speaker 1 (01:40:21):
I don't know, how what do you think she's doing
in this art gallery?

Speaker 2 (01:40:26):
She certainly would happen.

Speaker 1 (01:40:29):
I think she has an office, but I don't think
she's dealing with like high well filing.

Speaker 2 (01:40:33):
Cabinets given well, I mean filing cabinets have well. I
mean also, is she dealing in cash? Like is there
like a like a like a key for the cash register?

Speaker 1 (01:40:44):
Okay, okay, okay, I mean she.

Speaker 2 (01:40:47):
A single mom who works two jobs, like she's like,
I mean she's running that. It's like the fucking army
of the army.

Speaker 1 (01:40:54):
Excuse me, Yeah, okay, I'll give her six keys?

Speaker 2 (01:40:59):
Has six key?

Speaker 1 (01:41:01):
There are more than six? Crazy?

Speaker 2 (01:41:03):
No, oh my god. It's also like he's right behind you, sister, I.

Speaker 1 (01:41:09):
Know, like I used to lock the fuck in. I
also like, no, seriously, I can always, I mean she will.
I will give her that she was nervous. I will
give her that she was nervous. But like you use
your house key every day, I can identify my house
key at a glance. I'm not going up to my
door and trying several keys if they look the same,
put a marking on your house key, girl, What the hell?

Speaker 2 (01:41:30):
That's what nail paulishes literally for.

Speaker 1 (01:41:31):
Yes, exactly, goodness six Oh I don't know. Two more
thoughts that I didn't say one, Jenny Calendar, rest in
peace your bad a. I love you so much. You
also were fucked up for asking Willow to cover your
class for what I assume would be labor get a substitute.

(01:41:55):
What on earth?

Speaker 2 (01:41:56):
No, seriously, And it's also like don't they what the
hell does she not have like anyone involved, like a
student teacher who's here, who can like watch the class
like and then Willow for Willow to do five hours
of lesson prep. My god, fucked up. And then, not

(01:42:16):
to mention, Snyder asks Willow to cover the class until
they can find a new teacher. What the fuck this girl?

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
Or girls of junior in high school? I do feel
like if Snyder's asking her to do it, she hopefully
is getting paid. But when Jenny was asking it, as
I know he is, yeah, but also he's a bureaucrat.
I feel like he believes in red tape. Yeah, whereas Jenny,
I feel like I had no intention of paying Willow.
She was like, Hey, I know you're a huge pushover,

(01:42:46):
so you want to watch my class tomorrow?

Speaker 2 (01:42:50):
Oh my god?

Speaker 1 (01:42:50):
What ever? Girl? Whatever girl?

Speaker 2 (01:42:52):
Whatever girl?

Speaker 1 (01:42:53):
And then finally, my last thought is Giles talking to
Buffy at the beginning of the episode. I don't know
I should have written down the context of what he's
of what's being talked about when he says this, But
he says to Buffy that as the Slayer, she can't

(01:43:14):
be a slave to her passions, which is foreshadowing because
that is exactly what Giles becomes at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:43:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:43:24):
Well, it's a very good dramatic irony that that is
exactly what's gonna happen to him at the end of
the episode. He's gonna endanger everyone.

Speaker 2 (01:43:33):
Yeah, that on fire and go swing and slave to
a passion.

Speaker 4 (01:43:39):
Damn.

Speaker 2 (01:43:41):
Okay, well this very sad kill count today.

Speaker 1 (01:43:45):
Mm hmmm. We got the girl that and jealous kiss.
Who is blonde? Who is? I don't care what anyone says.
She's blonde. That's about now.

Speaker 2 (01:43:56):
That's he's got a kink.

Speaker 1 (01:43:59):
He's got a kick, and Kila's bond. Are we counting
the fish?

Speaker 2 (01:44:04):
Oh? Yeah, all right, Willow's three fish, four fish, four fish?

Speaker 1 (01:44:10):
I thought it was three fish.

Speaker 2 (01:44:12):
Oh, I don't want fish, two fish, bluefish. Let's say
three then it doesn't matter. Okay, a necklace of fish,
so awful? Fuck you angel for real? Three fish?

Speaker 1 (01:44:27):
Lena. What's her last on the kill count An?

Speaker 2 (01:44:34):
It's Jenny.

Speaker 1 (01:44:35):
Sadly she was in the arms of the angel. That's
what killed her.

Speaker 2 (01:44:38):
No, Bro, she was bro. Jenny Calendar, Jennifer Calendar, Yanna
calderasch first of her name. God, I love her so much.
May she rest in peace. We lost a battye in
the community, the bisexual bob community. Should I cut my
hair in her honor?

Speaker 1 (01:44:58):
Yes? And you should diet. I have been feeling this
since I wrote about you, Jane. Every time we talked
about Jenny, I've been like, and they don't know that
she dies, and they don't know that she dies. I
just this death was so impactful to me as a
teenager that, like everything I every time I think about Jenny,

(01:45:22):
it is painted by the fact that she gets killed
in this manner.

Speaker 2 (01:45:27):
My God.

Speaker 1 (01:45:28):
And we'd say stuff like Jenny and Giles's future kids.
We'd say stuff like if they ever break up, And
in my mind I'd be like, yeah, and she's gonna die.
She's gonna die.

Speaker 2 (01:45:40):
Yeah, I know, I know it's funny too. Like this
is truly like Jenny and Giles is genuinely one of
my OTPs of this entire show. I really love them
so much. This woman, this is Dominie Trix, like the
I think their dynamic is so fun and like so

(01:46:04):
so beautiful to me. I and like the older I get,
the more I love them. I don't know, God, I
just I can't believe she's gone. What the hell. I'm
really so sad about it. I love Jenny.

Speaker 1 (01:46:22):
Gone too soon, goodbye, Jenny.

Speaker 2 (01:46:26):
Seriously gone too soon. This one really sucks for me.
The worst part of this time?

Speaker 1 (01:46:36):
What's your worst part of this episode?

Speaker 2 (01:46:40):
That Jenny's gone.

Speaker 1 (01:46:43):
In the.

Speaker 2 (01:46:46):
I seriously love her. I think she's so gorgeous and
so wonderful and so silly and so and like, of
course I think narratively, I'm like cool with it, but
it doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt. What's your worst part?

Speaker 1 (01:47:00):
Like, none of it? I kind of think this episode's amazing. Yeah,
me through do I have a worse part of this
episode the fact that that girl that Angel kills the
beginning isn't more clearly a blonde.

Speaker 2 (01:47:11):
Come on, what are you talking about? It's clear she's
bleached blonde maybe seriously bleach and tone bleach in town.

Speaker 1 (01:47:20):
Bleach and tone bleach in town. I'm truly only saying
this because I love this episode, and so I'm just
gonna nippick something really briefly, Yep, it was so easy
for Jenny to figure out how to do the reinsoling curse,
and then obviously it doesn't matter because she doesn't get
to do it and the Chris gets destroyed and she
gets killed. So like at the end of the days

(01:47:41):
that I'm actually a big deal yeah, but like maybe
she could have had the idea like an episode ago,
two episodes ago, and she's like been quietly working on
it and then solves it. But like, once again, I
don't actually care. I am nitpicking because I think this
episode is excellent. Yeah, hey, what's your best part?

Speaker 2 (01:48:00):
Yeah, my best part is and of course, well okay,
I'm gonna do too because I can and it's our podcast,
not yours. Yeah, exactly. I love and I hate it,
but I love it. Giles finding Jenny. Oh see this

(01:48:20):
ain't right. See this ain't right. But it really it's
so devastating because, like you know, it's like a horror movie,
like you know what's gonna happen, and to watch it
all go down is so fucking awful. But it'sly gorgeous.
And also like Giles and Buffy holding each other at

(01:48:41):
the end of the episode and Buffy being honest with
Giles and being like, you can't leave me. I need you.
That's my best part. What's your best part?

Speaker 1 (01:48:51):
The entire school sequence, from Jenny cracking the curse to
Angels cracking her neck. Hey yeah, yeah, it's crazy. The reveal,
like scariest moment yet. I feel like we say, scariest
moment yet constantly we do. But the reveal of her

(01:49:12):
looking at the curse on the printer and then looking
up and Angels just sitting in the room like who
knows has just been sitting watching her. It's so creepy.
Him holding the orb of Theessala and being all gentle
and then chucking it out the wall, him breaking the
computer and then burning the printer pages with the fire.

(01:49:34):
That entire scene is so scary. How calm he is
the entire time is so scary. The fact that when
she's running, he's just walking after her because he knows
he's going to kill her. He knows there's no way
out and just gonna kill her. Yeah, and so he's
just letting her tire herself out. Also, she throws that

(01:49:54):
janitorial cart in front of him, and he's still a
good thirty feet away. He easily could run around.

Speaker 2 (01:50:01):
He's running right at it.

Speaker 1 (01:50:02):
He just keeps running and fully like tumbles over it.

Speaker 2 (01:50:06):
Okay, I think what you said earlier makes sense, Like
he probably is.

Speaker 1 (01:50:11):
Did you say this what what did I maybe say.

Speaker 2 (01:50:15):
That he was just like giving like making her think
that she had a chance to get away.

Speaker 1 (01:50:20):
Yeah, he's like, Oh, she's putting up a booby trap.
That's cute. I'll pretend to fall for it. But she
slows down as she gets up the stairs and then
I can cut her off in front of that gorgeous
What a beautiful place to kill them, I.

Speaker 2 (01:50:32):
Know, gorgeous. He got it at the cameras afterwards and
like he took the footage.

Speaker 1 (01:50:41):
Yeah, he framed it. Oh my gosh. Such and this
is something out of a slasher, like this is a
chase sequence.

Speaker 2 (01:50:48):
No, seriously, and I mean especially like with all like
the doors and like, oh my god, and they just.

Speaker 1 (01:50:56):
Let you think that she got away.

Speaker 2 (01:50:58):
They let you know the way stop.

Speaker 1 (01:51:00):
And then he's holding her head and he's still talking
to her, and you're keeping like, Okay, something must happen,
something must happen. She must get away.

Speaker 2 (01:51:08):
Ian please tell me what's your gayest what the episode?
Or wait, since it's Christmas, part gay gis part gives
part of the episode. Please tell me your getispa, your
GUIs part of this episode fashion gay guess part Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:51:30):
Please Jusilla intentionally stringing two men along because she likes
them fighting over because she likes it. Yeah, her doing
everything she can to stay just enough on Spike's good
side that he won't lose interest in her, so that
she can have both of them continue to fight over her. Heck, yeah,

(01:51:51):
what's yours?

Speaker 2 (01:51:53):
Oh? What is mine? I'm gonna say these like charcoal drawings?
Hell yeah, I think a like staying up with like
off like all of these women, Like what there's like

(01:52:14):
four No, there's not one of Willow, but there's one
of Joyster's one of Buffy.

Speaker 1 (01:52:17):
There's one of or No no, no, no no the fish.

Speaker 2 (01:52:25):
Yeah, and then a Willow opens a picture of Joyce.
But anyway, like that, he is like staying up with
all these women and like sitting with their sleeping slash
dead bodies drawing them. That's a level of devotion, that's
a level of passion that I only seen queer people.

Speaker 1 (01:52:44):
Also, the whole setup at Giles's apartment.

Speaker 2 (01:52:48):
Gay oh gay, No, it seriously and it was I
mean especially, I mean, what's like Italian opera in the background.
I think it's Yeah, I think it's level wham. I
think I I googled it anyway, That's why I think
it is. I googled it like opera and champagne.

Speaker 1 (01:53:09):
And giving homicide.

Speaker 2 (01:53:12):
Oh my god. Yeah, yeah, seriously, seriously, this isn't.

Speaker 1 (01:53:18):
Your diamond dozen. Oh I shot someone like this was
this homicide? Homicide for sensitive boys. He's got an artistic
eye that.

Speaker 2 (01:53:28):
Is so funny. No, seriously, he does, he does. And
I mean this was again, this is a level of devotional,
level of care, a level of passion that is only
that's only in queer people.

Speaker 1 (01:53:38):
A positioned her head so that she'd be looking at
the doorway.

Speaker 2 (01:53:42):
Looking at no, and he like had the vision enough
to be like, okay, and if she's here and he's
coming up here, like that's gay, that's gay.

Speaker 1 (01:53:50):
He was in there. He was wearing a turtle kneck,
he had a scarf, hit a beret, and he was like.

Speaker 2 (01:53:54):
Now he's smoking a cigarette.

Speaker 1 (01:53:56):
Yeah I had a cigarette.

Speaker 2 (01:53:59):
Mm hmmm.

Speaker 1 (01:54:00):
Set the mood for old.

Speaker 2 (01:54:02):
No, seriously, he's like, you know, he went through like
six different and the calligraphy of it all like yes, yeah,
oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:54:13):
He took that shit serious.

Speaker 2 (01:54:14):
No, he did, he did. Straight people don't take anything seriously.

Speaker 1 (01:54:18):
No, that's what That's what I've been saying forever. Straight
people take nothing serious. They don't.

Speaker 2 (01:54:24):
Nothing is saying, and I'm telling you shit means used
to mean something, and straight people don't. I mean nothing.

Speaker 1 (01:54:33):
There used to be he used to be. Oh my god, stupid.

Speaker 2 (01:54:41):
My god. Well everyone, thank you so much for tuning
into passions with us. Please let us know what you
think about this episode. To send us your eulogizing thoughts
to Jenny Recovering Gleek at gmail dot com if you
want to share with us what you think about the episode,
you'd love to read what you think.

Speaker 1 (01:55:02):
Hi, everyone, Merry Christmas Eve. Just like Santa Claus, you've
been writing us Christmas letters and we've been reading them,
and now we're here to deliver your presence, which are
reading your emails back to you and then occasionally editorializing
a bit on them.

Speaker 2 (01:55:20):
Who God, we're just like Santa Claus. You ever think
about the Santa Claus and how it doesn't make any sense?

Speaker 1 (01:55:28):
How does it not make sense?

Speaker 2 (01:55:29):
Like six years after the titular Santa Claus, there's a
second Santa Claus clause where you have to get married,
or the missus clause. Yeah, the missus clause you have
to get married or Christmas is over forever.

Speaker 1 (01:55:45):
Yeah, I don't view the sequels as canon. I haven't
seen the Santa Claus two since it was in theaters,
so I don't supermember it. I remember it's got Juliette
from Lost, Yeah, as the titular missus Clause, but I
don't really remember it, so I actually can't speak on

(01:56:06):
logistically how realistic it is or not.

Speaker 2 (01:56:08):
I think about the Santa Claus so much recently.

Speaker 1 (01:56:11):
But the Santa Claus one air tight law.

Speaker 2 (01:56:14):
Well, I mean, can you believe Sanda died and like
what happened to his missus Claus?

Speaker 1 (01:56:20):
She dies too? You're intrinsically linked.

Speaker 2 (01:56:22):
And like that, like what's his face? Literally watched that
little kid watched a man die?

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
Yeah, you know you know what.

Speaker 2 (01:56:33):
I'm always thinking about it Christmas time? Stepdad, Neil, Stepdad Neil.

Speaker 1 (01:56:39):
Judge Reinhold.

Speaker 2 (01:56:40):
Yeah, hell yeah, my god, I'm always.

Speaker 1 (01:56:42):
Thinking I love.

Speaker 2 (01:56:45):
Something about Neil. He's such an asshole. I think that
character is so fun. Oh my god, let's read some
email show. Let's kick things off with a message from Magdalena.

Speaker 1 (01:56:58):
Hi, guys, I've just up in your podcast, and upon
hearing you talk about the Polish title for the Bad
Eggs episode, I decided that It's time for me to
finally write to you. I'm from Poland International listener, and
so I have some hopefully interesting insight to share about
the but the Eggs Polish title. In my opinion, the

(01:57:19):
Polish name of that episode is actually a pretty great
translation because it gains additional meaning when one knows the
Polish language. Although but the Eggs is a direct translation
of the Polish I'm gonna do my best here alai yaya,
it makes little sense as such in the English slash
American context, but admittedly this makes it even funnier. Alai

(01:57:41):
yaya is a phrase commonly used in Poland to express
when something is hilarious or surprising. I don't think there's
an equivalent of it in English, but the closest would
probably be the idiom a barrel of laughs. We use
ala yaya, I'm sorry. Any Polish listener is I'm I'm
getting very subconscious that I'm doing a bad job, Serra.

Speaker 2 (01:58:02):
I'm not Polish.

Speaker 1 (01:58:04):
Famous Polish speaker Lena Kanassi things doing a job. We
use alai yah yah simply as an exclamation of you're
kidding me or that's hilarious, and no way Similarly to
when these expressions are used in a humor situation or
when one is amazed, delighted, pleasantly surprised. So this Polish
phrase is not only funny by itself, but it also

(01:58:27):
but is also used when something funny occurs. And since
the Bad Eggs episode is not really meant to be
taken too seriously, I find this creative translation of the
original title really fitting. It's a clever way to corporate
Polish culture into the title while also referring to what
is happening in the episode. To better illustrate my point,
It's like if the demons took the form of evil

(01:58:47):
horses instead of eggs, and then the English title would
probably be called horsing around or something like that. And
now for the disappointing part of my email. Now, I
admit that I don't usually pay much attention to Polish
titles while watching TV show, So when I heard you
say that Bad Eggs had been translated to but the Eggs,
I was quite amused and felt bad about not remembering
it at all from my binge watch of the series. Naturally,

(01:59:09):
I then had to check it out, and as it
turns out, I didn't really miss anything, as the Polish
title on Disney Plus is not a la yaya, but
instead is a direct translation that correlates to bad eggs
or rotten eggs. I couldn't find where but the eggs
actually came from, but it was probably a title used
before streaming or something. So unfortunately, this great Polish title

(01:59:31):
no longer exists, and I wonder if the streaming platforms
ever used the previously established translations, or do they just
automatically translate all the titles without any creativity using Google
or AI, causing such inspired translations to become a lost
art form. Anyway, I really love your podcast and listening
to you for the past six months was the highlight
of my year. I am so grateful to you, guys,

(01:59:52):
I can't even express it. Thank you for your hard
work and for inspiring me to watch Buffy. To be honest,
I'm usually not the biggest fan of the super natural genre,
so I was hesitant at first, but the show was
really something special, and now having finished it all, I
can't let it go. I am seriously obsessed and can't
wait for you to cover the rest of this amazing series.
It might be one of my favorites now. Thanks again,

(02:00:13):
wish you all the best. Xox Magdalena, she her ps.
I don't want to spread misinformation, so if any other
Polish listener wants to correct me on anything, please feel
free to do so. And it would be super cool
to know that someone else from here listens to the
podcast PPS. What is up with seasons two of so
many TV shows being life changing? Like, yeah, go ahead,

(02:00:33):
introduce my beloved characters. Why don't you looking at you? Glee,
puckso rec Lost, Buffy, Magdalena. We actually had another Polish
listener dm us on Instagram, Joanna dmd us saying this
exact same thing about the butf the eggs. So when
I don't think you're spending misinformation because Joanna agrees, and
also at least one other Polish person is listening to

(02:00:55):
the podcast, you guys can connect.

Speaker 2 (02:00:57):
God yeah, I love this. This is so fun.

Speaker 1 (02:01:03):
I idioms are so interesting because they don't translate. I
love stuff like this. I wonder about this a lot
when I'm watching an English language piece of media that
has word play in it, and I'm always curious, like,
how does this joke translate in other countries? How are

(02:01:24):
they making a punchline when like this direct translation won't
make any sense in that language. And I love situations
like this where new jokes are found based on the
turns of phrase of a different language. So I love
to hear this. I think that's very creative and fun.
And I am also sad that they are now like
direct translating on streaming services and not doing these fun

(02:01:47):
idiomatic titles.

Speaker 2 (02:01:50):
No, seriously, this is a like but the eggs is
so silly in English. To learn more about it, it
makes it even sillier. This is just very thrilling, and like,
what has technology kind of taken from us? When someone
takes the time to translate something and make it something

(02:02:13):
that you know, like like you said, Magdalena, like adds
something and like references Polish culture, like that's so fun,
Like damn, we're really missing out on a lost art
form here.

Speaker 1 (02:02:26):
I remember one of my favorite idioms in Argentina that
would make me giggle, like translating into English, was if
you did something that like ended up being a waste
of time, you'd be like, I did this a fart.

Speaker 2 (02:02:39):
Like I love translating idioms, like that's so fucking funny.
I did it so far.

Speaker 1 (02:02:47):
You'd be like you know, you'd be like waiting for
the bus and it turned out the bus you missed
the bus and it wasn't coming. It's like, well, I
guess we're waiting here for fart.

Speaker 2 (02:02:55):
So so fun, make any sense. I love it.

Speaker 1 (02:03:02):
And then also like same with like wordplay, there's like
so many I remember, like so many wordplay stupid pun
jokes in Spanish that then I was like, this joke
is so funny, but you can't translate it, you know,
those like Mother Russia jokes. Yeah, where it's like in
Mother Russia, like you don't eat the food, the food
eats you whatever. Whatever. Sure it's like in Spanish with

(02:03:24):
farting is like the direct translation of farting is throwing farts,
Like that's the verbus like to throw a fart. And
so there was a joke that was in Mother Russia
you don't throw the fart the four throws you.

Speaker 4 (02:03:42):
I just think.

Speaker 1 (02:03:43):
Languages are so.

Speaker 2 (02:03:45):
Awesome, very good, very good. Oh my god, in Mother
Russia you don't throw the fart at the fart throws you.
I love that. God, this was so fun. I love
new stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:03:57):
Thank you for sharing this, and also I think across
the board for I don't know, maybe this isn't true
for every show, but I think season two of shows
being stronger tends to happen a lot because I feel
like season one of TV shows is people getting their
footing exactly. It's like, what is the identity of the show,

(02:04:18):
and you know, you have something on the page, but
then you get these actors and then they add other
layers to these characters that you weren't expecting. So I
feel like so much of first seasons is people really
figuring out what it is that this is going to be,
and then in the second season they've hit their stride
and it like enters a golden era. So I think
especially for comedies, Yeah, it's like the first season of

(02:04:38):
a comedy is always like okay, and then by season
two they have found their stride and it really picks
up and like you.

Speaker 2 (02:04:45):
Know, you see too, like what people are connecting with,
like after a show airrs and you can kind of
cater to what people want to see. Yeah, like oh,
my god, like Ben Wyatt, like before he gets on.

Speaker 1 (02:05:02):
Parks and that's that season three free he enters like
the last like two episodes of season two.

Speaker 2 (02:05:08):
My god, you're right, But even still, I got a
spot for it. I love Parks and rec I love
every episode of Parks and Rack like but for real,
like you know, season two of Glee, season two of Buffy,
like season two of Parks of rack Like. It's so true.
I love, I love season two and hopefully I enter

(02:05:29):
my season two. I don't know, girl, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (02:05:33):
I hope for that too, Babe and Malanna, thank you
for this email.

Speaker 2 (02:05:38):
Oh my god, let's hear from Clarenex.

Speaker 4 (02:05:40):
Shall we all right? Do you lead?

Speaker 1 (02:05:43):
And Ian? I've been in love with Oz since I
was fourteen. This man has such a grip on me.
I don't think I'll ever be free of him, and
I wouldn't want to be. I'm obsessed with everything he
says and does. Phases is such a perfect episode to
get to know him more. I love it so much. First,
I have an embarrassing confession. It took me ten years,

(02:06:03):
ten years of watching this episode who knows how many
times to realize that Oz is saying tag as he
tucks Willow's tag into her shirt, and not tag You're it.
I was always so confused by that line, like he's
just touching her on the back as a, Hey, I'm
sitting behind you, weird little game. I genuinely did not
realize he was fixing her tag until a year or

(02:06:26):
two ago. And there's a whole line about a halfa
through the episode that I somehow never heard. Anyways, I
love the contrast between Oz and all the other boys
in this episode. His budding relationship with Willow is so
pure and innocent. He wants to take things at her pace,
and he effortlessly shuts down in appropriate comments from the
other guys. The contrast between this and Larry's misogyny, Cane's

(02:06:48):
creepy moments, Xander and Cordelia's lust based relationship though I
love them together, and Buffy who did the deed with
her creature of the night boyfriend and now he's killing
her classmates. He is also a werewolf who is attracted
to horny teens in wolf form, and yet Oz is
just the sweetest chillis guy. Even his comment at the end,

(02:07:09):
which is the cheesiest of all cheeseball things to say,
he kisses Willow once and he's in love. Ah be
still my beating heart. Also, Willow is wearing a shirt
with a fawn laying on the Grass in the library scene,
which is positioning her as a potential victim for his werewolf,
but in human form he would never hurt her. Brilliant
costuming side note. Has there ever been a good werewolf

(02:07:34):
costume design in the history of cinema? Buffy just a
dude in a suit, teenwolf, weird looking sideburns and claws,
Twilight regular cg I looking wolves, boring, Harry Pottered, horrifying
hairless cat thing. I guess I haven't seen that much
werewolf media, but I feel like it shouldn't be that
hard to design something better than this. Hope you have

(02:07:54):
a great holiday season, Claire, I don't know. I think
oz in the wolf suit is killer killer amazing, So
I agree to.

Speaker 2 (02:08:03):
Disagree, especially that fat ass he's got.

Speaker 1 (02:08:07):
Yes, especially that fat ass he's got. Does he have
a fat ass?

Speaker 2 (02:08:10):
Yes. We talked about it in the episode.

Speaker 1 (02:08:12):
Girl.

Speaker 2 (02:08:12):
I don't remember he's double cheeked up on a Thursday afternoon.

Speaker 1 (02:08:15):
Really yeah?

Speaker 2 (02:08:16):
Oh, I don't know. I remember very clearly going to
see fucking New Moon with my dad and him like
scream laughing. I think werewolves are tough. I think werewolves
are really tough to make, not really cheesy or weird.

Speaker 1 (02:08:34):
Yeah, I like have never seen an American werewolf in London,
but I've seen the famous scene of him turning into
the werewolf and like his snout protrudes and that one
little scene that's a gag that looks good and that's fun.
So maybe an American werewolf in London. But I haven't
seen the whole flag, so I can't really endorse it.

(02:08:56):
Yeah damn, but I think mhm, I think the wolf
in the pro shot of the Into the Woods original
Broadway production with the wiener big old cop piece, that's
the way to do it. Baby.

Speaker 2 (02:09:11):
Yeah. Hey, I remember being a little kid watching that
and being like that surely can't.

Speaker 1 (02:09:16):
Be and put a big old wolf dick on him.

Speaker 2 (02:09:22):
I mean, I also like I didn't know what a
penis looks like at that age. I swear to God,
I okay, I love Oz, and I love that you
love Oz, and I love like he is just so wonderful,
and I love everything you're saying in this, Claire, and like,
you know the contrast of him being like the most gentle, wonderful,

(02:09:46):
patient person and also oh my god, and I also
didn't even pick up that like he is like totally
like attracted by the horny people in the community. But
like he he he himself is like no, like we're
not going to kiss, Like I'm gonna wait until you're ready.
I didn't. I didn't clock that at all. I think
that's wonderful.

Speaker 1 (02:10:05):
He's a werewolf, baby, Yeah, those of you least expect.

Speaker 2 (02:10:09):
Oh where wolves in London?

Speaker 1 (02:10:13):
Hell yeah, that's a good betrayal of a werewolf. Yeah.
Do you know, Osbourne, You'll always be famous, will always
always its emotionally intelligent teenager who's ever lived.

Speaker 2 (02:10:22):
Oh my god, seriously, thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:10:24):
For the femail, Claire. I hope you have a wonderful
holiday as well.

Speaker 2 (02:10:27):
Thank you. Up next, let's hear from Ka. Hi there.

Speaker 1 (02:10:32):
I wrote one third of the Wikipedia page history bisexuality,
and boy was I excited when you mentioned this book.
This book being Psychopathia Sexualists, which we talked about in
in be Wich Bothereddna be Willard. But unfortunately this book

(02:10:52):
may not be everything you dream of. It coined sadism, masochism,
and bisexuality as psychological disorders along with homosexuality. That said,
it's still a landmark moment in queer history. Up until
this point. By sexuality was seen as a quote normal

(02:11:12):
heavy on the quotes here person occasionally dipping their toes
into sinful same sex sexual behavior and was variably punished
or tolerated, but of course almost never accepted. Kraft Ebbing
wasn't a queer ally in the way we might expect
someone to be today, but he did advocate for decriminalizing

(02:11:34):
same sexu relations, essentially arguing that it was in people's
fault that they had this illness. In a way, it
was a big step forward. It opened the door for
queerness to be seen as a fundamental part of who
you are, rather than a behavior that could be punished
out of you. On the flip side, psychologists would spend
decades trying to fix queerness, which of course led to

(02:11:57):
a long legacy of conversion therap therapy and similar atrocities.
If you're looking for a true pioneer of gay rights
and trans writes his friend, Carl Ulris was your guy. Hope.
This was an interesting bit of queer history. It is
one of my areas of study right now and is
so fascinating. Love the podcast and you guys, thanks for
all you do. Bisexually yours Okay.

Speaker 2 (02:12:19):
This is so interesting, and honestly, I'm so glad that
you brought this up too, because like hearing that, like
you know, someone coined the term bisexuality is straight up
just very exciting. So I'm glad to hear the history,
and I'm glad to know that like this is like
kind of a sorted history and to learn a little
more about it and straight up, maybe we should read.

Speaker 1 (02:12:39):
Some Alriclrix, Carl Carl Ulris.

Speaker 2 (02:12:44):
Carl Olricks stuff. I think this is.

Speaker 1 (02:12:46):
Carl Olrics said that homosexuality was natural, Okay, but Carl
but that it was because some men were born with
something in them that made them internally female, oh, internally feminine.
So he you know, he was getting and I mean,
you guys, this this man lived like one hundred and
fifty years ago, so like, far be it from us

(02:13:09):
to be like if we had lived one hundred and
fifty years ago, god, we would have known the things
we know now. But like he was, you know, he
was getting the transitness of it all, he was getting
the homosexuality of it all. He was maybe getting the
wires between the two crossed a little bit. But without
these people, and I mean straight up without craft ebbings like,
we would not be where we are now. You know,

(02:13:31):
progress does not happen all at once. We need the
craft ebbings who say, this isn't you know, something that's punishable.
This is an intrinsic part of who they are. Yeah,
and that means they're sick. But like, at least he
recognized it was an intrinsic part.

Speaker 2 (02:13:46):
This podcast is for you, sick bit jays.

Speaker 1 (02:13:49):
Yeah, I got the illness.

Speaker 2 (02:13:51):
Tune in seriously, but yeah, I agree. I think this
is This is exactly the kind of stuff I also
love to hear about. Also, Kay, congrats on writing one
third of the Wikipedia page for bisexuality. Hell yeah, for
the history of bisexuality. We got to tune in. I
gotta read this. I love to learn about this kind
of stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:14:11):
You know who else loves to learn about this kind
of stuff, Rupert Giles. That's why it's in its library.

Speaker 2 (02:14:14):
Oh no, seriously, I've got I got the book for you.

Speaker 1 (02:14:18):
He said, History of bisexuality. This is the history of me.
Thank you, Kay for writing my Wikipedia page.

Speaker 2 (02:14:24):
That's a bisexual man, that's real. I love this, Kay,
Thank you so much. Our listeners are so smart.

Speaker 1 (02:14:34):
I wish I was happy. It's smart.

Speaker 2 (02:14:36):
All right. Up next, let's hear from Emily.

Speaker 1 (02:14:40):
Hey, glare slash sleaks. Emily here, you mentioned the movie
Quest for Camelot in your episode on Innocence briefly, but
for people who don't watch the episodes, which I understand,
I have some recap podcasts. I do that for since
I enjoy the podcasters more than the show content. You
should have mentioned that once Buffy and Angelus enter the

(02:15:01):
movie theater, pretty much from every different camera angle in
the theater you can see a different Quest for Camelot
poster in the background, and since it is a bright,
colorful kids movie, it draws the eye every time, since
it's the only thing that isn't realistically colored. Can't wait
to listen to more Emily. Emily, I do agree. When

(02:15:22):
I was editing the episode, I was like, we actually
we mentioned that Quest for Camelon is on the walls.
We don't do justice to how insane it is. Well
coming soon posters and they're all for fucking Quest for Camelot.
Have these cartoon dragons like while Buffy tries to murder

(02:15:43):
her boyfriend, Yeah, it's crazy ing and it's raining indoors.
Quest for Camelot starring Justllyn Gilsig of Glee fame.

Speaker 2 (02:15:52):
Oh my god, yeah yeah, oh we should have mentioned this.
Thank you for breaking it up. This is important.

Speaker 1 (02:15:58):
It's really it is a crazy Could they not get
the rights to another movie poster with Quest for Camelot
the only one that was like willing to pay for
the product placement.

Speaker 2 (02:16:10):
To me, let's exactly like, let's have the prop department
have a field day.

Speaker 1 (02:16:15):
It's just like, it's that the only movie that's showing
at this mall. Just quess where they like, we got
four theaters and they're all showing Quest for Camelot.

Speaker 2 (02:16:23):
For this theater.

Speaker 1 (02:16:24):
Cartoons.

Speaker 2 (02:16:25):
I wonder if they had just like a ton of
pre sale and they're like, this night, we're gonna go
crazy for Quest for Camelot.

Speaker 1 (02:16:31):
There's a moment in that movie where the villain, I
don't remember if this is like how he gets defeated,
but an ogre comes and the ogre sits on the
villain and he gets crushed and his last words are
the ogre's butt and then he disappears under the butt.

Speaker 2 (02:16:48):
Okay, get this, I've never seen it.

Speaker 1 (02:16:52):
Gets I've never seen it either. Are just in clips
and one of them is the ogre's butt clip.

Speaker 2 (02:16:58):
I hear you.

Speaker 1 (02:16:59):
Yeah, Carrier Camelot.

Speaker 2 (02:17:01):
Oh my god.

Speaker 1 (02:17:01):
You know who has seen it though, Emily Buffy Summers.

Speaker 2 (02:17:05):
Buffy Summers. Yeah. Well of course she after she couldn't
be playing in Sunnydale at all.

Speaker 1 (02:17:09):
After she kicked Angel and the balls, she was like,
I need a distraction, Willow.

Speaker 2 (02:17:15):
Do you want to see for real?

Speaker 1 (02:17:17):
Yeah? And the only thing playing was fucking Quest for Camelot.

Speaker 2 (02:17:19):
So she saw it soaking, wet, soaking, wet jeans, soaking
what she likes.

Speaker 1 (02:17:25):
The theaters all nasty and has water everywhere because the
sprinkler system had gone off. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:17:29):
But everyone is like, literally like please, you have to
let us watch Quests for We've been dying.

Speaker 1 (02:17:35):
We literally we stayed up. We were waiting outside to
buy tickets for the minute showing of Quests for Camelot.

Speaker 2 (02:17:40):
They're also getting calls like all day long, like can
I get a poster from Quest for Camelot please, And
they're like, I don't know if we have enough.

Speaker 1 (02:17:50):
We only have twenty of them and they're all already spoken.

Speaker 2 (02:17:54):
Sorry, they're broken for the workers really want some to.

Speaker 1 (02:17:58):
They're like a quest for Camelot's Dandee as well or
am I making that up?

Speaker 2 (02:18:02):
Oh? I can't remember.

Speaker 1 (02:18:03):
Oh I hope there is. Damn. I don't see a movie.
I haven't seen a movie in a long time.

Speaker 2 (02:18:08):
The last movie I saw was Eternity.

Speaker 1 (02:18:13):
Best movie ever? That movie really, that movie really changed
my perspective on love and life. I loved that movie.
So that's the last.

Speaker 2 (02:18:20):
Movie I said too, I love that.

Speaker 1 (02:18:23):
I loved that movie so much that I called my
mother and was like, you have.

Speaker 2 (02:18:26):
To go see Oh no. I told my mom to
watch it too. I was like, please watch this, Mom.

Speaker 1 (02:18:30):
And then she loved it. And then my sister saw it,
and then she loved it. And then I went to
fucking rehearsal the next day. This was like four days
into rehearsal. I didn't know anyone yet, yeah, and I
was like, who here's seen Eternity? Like I was really
trying to get people to get their asses to an
AMC I am and see Eternity.

Speaker 2 (02:18:48):
I went to my friend's birthday party the other day
and I was talking to one of my friends's boyfriends
and he's like, what's like the best movie you've seen recently?
I was like I really liked Eternity and he was like,
I don't really like rom comms, and I was like,
I don't think you can continue having this conversation.

Speaker 1 (02:19:01):
Also, he was a nice guy, but I one don't
like that sentiment, and I love me either. I also like,
don't think I would call Eternity a rom com because like, yes,
is it romantic, and yes it is a comedy. Yes
it is a rom com, but like I, it is
saying something so profound. I feel like, yeah, more than
like I really loved it, I would say how to

(02:19:24):
Lose a Guy in Ten Days is saying, which is
another movie that I adore.

Speaker 2 (02:19:27):
Okay, but I love like not too much on My Girl. No, no,
I love that movie, but.

Speaker 1 (02:19:31):
I Likeny has like a profound thesis statement too.

Speaker 2 (02:19:34):
Yes, I agree, it was so wonderful. I also love
like a high concept movie, and I just I also
was like that those two are old people, like those
who are straight up like they were doing such a
good job.

Speaker 1 (02:19:48):
I was like, yeah, you're like Miles Teller's eighty years old.

Speaker 2 (02:19:51):
I seriously I kept forgetting that they were like just
like people in their thirties. I was like, those are
two ninety year olds. It was really sweet. I really
liked it, and that.

Speaker 4 (02:20:03):
Hate him.

Speaker 1 (02:20:05):
He's very good looking. My roommate the other day we
were talking about nepotism babies and then he was like,
you know what also pisses me off is nepotism siblings.
And he was like, like, Elizabeth Olsen only has the
crew she has because of Mary Kate Nashley, and I said,
you show up.

Speaker 2 (02:20:21):
He said, that's my girl.

Speaker 1 (02:20:23):
I was like, she's the most talented woman in Hollywood.
And then I found out he's never seen anything she's
ever done besides Infinity War An Endgame, which I was like,
first of all, she's great in those movies, so what
the hell WandaVision.

Speaker 2 (02:20:35):
No, you've never seen anything. And I was like, don't
like to take sickre text to me. I was there
when it was written.

Speaker 1 (02:20:41):
I like, you ever seen the like fucking Sisters movie
with Carrie Coon. She's amazing in that. And then I
came home. I literally I saw Eternity and I texted
him and I said, I just saw Eternity. You're so
fucking wrong about Elizabeth Olsen. You're a hack, I think,
is what I said to him.

Speaker 2 (02:20:58):
You're a hack for real. I also like I watched
her she did a Last Meals with Mythical the other day.
Do you ever see a last meals video where they
go anyway, mythical good, mythical morning They do like anyway,
but a celebrity will come on and like have their
last meal. A her last meal is bougie as fuck.
I was like, I can't relate to this one at all.

Speaker 1 (02:21:17):
But she was talking about grew up famous sisters. I'm
sure she's had a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (02:21:22):
And there's this moment too where she gets like the
most expensive bottle of wine I've literally ever seen, and
she doesn't drink it because she's just not drinking right now,
which I mean like she totally does not have to drink,
but like they still like opened this bottle of like
very expensive wine for her, and I was like, this
is a woman who like is not thinking about money
at all. I was a ghast, Mama. It was wild anyway,

(02:21:47):
But in the video, she's talking so much about her
like philosophy on acting and like all the training she's
done and how she's like, you know, I was like
inspired by my sisters, but I like really cared a
lot about acting from a very young age. Like you
can tell she thinks a lot about it. And of
course she is an epotism sibling, Like she had those
opportunities she could go like study in Russia for like

(02:22:08):
five years, because like she didn't need to have a job.
She could choose to become an actress, like at sixteen
years old, like after like a volleyball injury. She's straight
up an epotism sibling. But I mean, she like cares
so much about it.

Speaker 1 (02:22:22):
Yeah, I love her. That movie's great. Yeah, bougie as fuck,
and you know what, other movies great Quest for Camelot
shout out Emily, Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (02:22:33):
And finally let's hear from Ira.

Speaker 1 (02:22:36):
Hell Yeah, hey, y'all, I thought i'd share a perspective
on Xander I had while watching Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered.
While watching Beset, Befuddled, and bereft, I personally read Xander
as admiring Giles and deep down wanting him to be
a pseudo father figure. Obviously, we've gotten hints about his
home life, and he most definitely does not have a
good real role model in his household. Like y'all talked about,

(02:22:59):
it's kind of I've implied that he doesn't feel safe
around his own father, and I get the impression that
he tends to be an idiot in front of Giles
because he feels safe with him. In my perspective, it
seemed like Giles being disappointed at him cuts so much
deeper than anything else. To that point, I feel like
he Xander usually responds with a stupid joke, but he

(02:23:21):
genuinely looked hurt because he really fucked up and disappointed
the one adult in his life that he thought might
see him as more than a bumbling idiot. Giles is
an incredible dad to Buffy, but I wonder if Xander
feels a bit jealous of that fact. Of course, the
Watcher and Slayer dynamic is extremely deep, and Xander is
a buffoon, but I think deep down he wants Giles

(02:23:44):
to think highly of him, not just as the kid
who cracks a few dumb jokes. This is partly because
he has never given that validation from any other adult.
Snyder saying the stuff about an airborne toxic event feeds
into this comedy is his coping my fanism. Like you
guys have said, it's the one thing he thinks he
has going for him and adults constantly shut him down.

(02:24:05):
So Giles laying into him about a dumb decision he
made hits that much harder because it kind of reinforces
to him that he'll always be a burden, a screw up,
the kid no one believes in, and his words, someone
who's twice the full. Now. I love Giles down and
I don't think this is a bad choice, but he
does continue to sort of dismiss Xander throughout the show,
which one allows the show to poke fun of Xander

(02:24:28):
when he's being an idiot, and two keeps his character
compelling in my opinion, because he has to learn to
find peace within himself and let go of needing a
external validation. I promise Xander isn't secretly my favorite character.
At highest, he'd be at like number ten. But something
about his character is so sad to me, and I
have a little bit of empathy for him that I
can't really explain, because he's someone that on paper I

(02:24:51):
would probably dislike, and he does genuinely have some pretty
bad moments. I just love seeing nuanced characters on my screen,
and I feel like Buffy does an excellent job making
to preson compelling in their own way, tootles for now,
Ira she her Iirah, you're right, and you should say
it again.

Speaker 2 (02:25:06):
I think this is such a good thought. Like, I
think it is normal and natural to see an adult
in your life and see them deeply care for your
peers and then to really lay into you and be
like what the hell and not to mention with everything
we know and we've like you know, gleamed from hearing

(02:25:27):
Xander talk about his own personal life. I'm sure it
like cuts really deep all of you know, every interaction,
every negative reaction he has with Giles, like he wants
that relationship that he has with Buffy and with Willow too, Like,
oh my god, I love this thought, and I think,
like I think I'm going to think about this actually

(02:25:48):
forever moving forward.

Speaker 1 (02:25:49):
Yeah, I love the cemial. This is why I like
Xander as a character. Is all the negative stuff to
be said about his character that like deserves to be said.
He is ultimately a kid that no one believes in,
that is afraid that he's like a screw up in

(02:26:10):
a moron, and his journey kind of accepting who he
is is a very interesting watch for me, learning to
like be, you know, meet yourself where you're at and
make peace with the hand you have been dealt by life. Yeah,

(02:26:35):
I love that Oky Santa Harris. Yeah, Merry Christmas.

Speaker 2 (02:26:41):
Congresated figure. Yeah, Merry Christmas, Ander Dan.

Speaker 1 (02:26:46):
That's our Christmas special. Merry Christmas, Ander Harris.

Speaker 2 (02:26:49):
Merry Christmas, Ander Harris. I love that email. I loved
all these emails. Mery Christmas to us, y'all were actually
Santa for us.

Speaker 1 (02:26:56):
Yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (02:27:00):
Episode. Have a wonderful Christmas if you celebrate Happy Hanna
Cup A couple of weeks ago, Mary Kwanza.

Speaker 1 (02:27:05):
Everything Americas, Honakamas and a Happy Rama Kwanza.

Speaker 2 (02:27:09):
Don zach chalk exactly. I knew you're gonna say it.
I didn't remember it, so I knew you should say it.
If you want to follow us on social media where
Archie presents on our school podcast on TikTok and also Instagram.

Speaker 1 (02:27:22):
And if you want to join a Patreon, you can
do that at patreon dot com slash recovering Gleek, get
on this episodes, see videos of the podcast, get to
the episodes a week early, and also, if you're best
friend of the podcast, get a special shout out, which
I will do now.

Speaker 4 (02:27:38):
It's me, Saint Nicholas.

Speaker 1 (02:27:40):
Here to wish you guys. This is so corny.

Speaker 4 (02:27:44):
Uh, here to wish up special Christmas thank you to
the best friends of the podcast. So here is a
special Holiday. Thank you too, Ryan Arwin, Natalie Skyline, Celia, Vanessa,
Emily Sonia Erin, Olivia moorgs Ida, Jack Carous, Elizabeth Pressbobbles, Eden, Brianna, JP, Tanya, Catherine, Shannon, Rachel, Drew, Christine, Kayleen, Rachel, Allison, Megan, Audrey, Alexandra, Kylie, Dustin,

(02:28:13):
Asa Jade and Paul Vicki Keeley, Jasmine, Will, Danica, Shlaine,
Diugal To Host Kay Reagan Peepe Poop Poo, Josette, Joe Lowe,
Madeline how Lania, Lisee Planton, Alice Page, Nannie f Nicole Abbey,
Christen Story, Eileen Malory, Hamantha, Rebecca, Leila, Ari, Marissa Taylor, Frankie,
Margaret Espina, Emily, Phoebe, Aria, Eva Helee, Emily, Jacqueline, Elsie, Lazo, Ray, Emma, Steph, Charlie, Kelsey, Thomas, Tucco, Britney, Kenzie, Michael, Katie,

(02:28:40):
Elizabeth and Freddie Oh. Thank you so much for subscribing
to the Patreon and Mary Christmas. See you all tonight
because it is Christmas Eve after all, you guys, I
don't know, Merry Christmas. Thanks for supporting us. Do so
if you celebrate Merry Christmas, everyone celebrating.

Speaker 1 (02:29:03):
Happy Boxing Day, Canada, shout out Canada.

Speaker 2 (02:29:06):
Shout out to Canada, Canada, Mansion, Canada, Mansion.

Speaker 1 (02:29:09):
Canada, Canada, Mansion, Mansion. What am I saying?

Speaker 2 (02:29:12):
Canada Mansion.

Speaker 1 (02:29:14):
I hope everyone has a lovely Christmas holiday. Oh. Also,
so many people celebrate Boxing Day, not just Canada. Hey,
I'm Australia, Spanish people, all you Boxing Day head Tabby
Boxing Day. But I hope, I hope those of you
who celebrate to have a lovely merry Christmas. I hope

(02:29:34):
that your demon X does not stalk you and kill
your teacher. That would be a really devastating.

Speaker 2 (02:29:40):
Yeah, I would hate that. Thank you all for being here,
Happy Holidays, Merry Christmas, all the things. I can't believe.
We didn't realize this was the Kristins episode with the.

Speaker 1 (02:29:50):
Hell we're so we're recording this so for in advance
because we're silly billies. I just like, well, we stop
looking at the calendar.

Speaker 2 (02:29:59):
Yeah, but it's December.

Speaker 1 (02:30:02):
First, Killed by death, New Year's Eve, Killed by death,
New Year's Eve, New Year's Eve.

Speaker 2 (02:30:09):
We'll see you there. Love you guys, have have yourself
Mary little Griz moves. He is a kiss on your
forehead if you want it. Bye bye, Thank you for listening.

Speaker 1 (02:30:25):
Follow us at Recovering Gleek Underscore podcast, Email us at
Recovering Gleek atjiva dot com, join our Patreon Patreon dot com,
slash Recovering Gleek, rate and review us, and tell your
friends please Next year.

Speaker 2 (02:30:39):
Trouble on upside?

Speaker 1 (02:30:43):
Have you seen that movie?

Speaker 2 (02:30:44):
I haven't. I would love to, though, Oh.

Speaker 1 (02:30:46):
It's lovely, it's nice.

Speaker 2 (02:30:48):
I just watched The Happiest Season. Have you seen the
movie I have? Well, they end watching It's a Wonderful Life.
And I mean last year I had a hankering to
watch Its a Wonderful Life, but I didn't watch it
in this year. I swear to God, if I make
it through December without watching It's a Wonderful Life, there
will be hell to pay.

Speaker 1 (02:31:10):
Someone that we both know is currently playing Mary in
Its Wonderful Life. And I have been like in a
play version, and I've been messaging her about Donna Reid's
line readings in that movie because so many of them
were so iconic. Specifically, the one that start of the
conversation is oh, heehaw Sam, how are you? I love

(02:31:32):
her line reading of that, how are you? Donna Reid
as Mary, you will always be famous. I also think
that Donna Reid in its Wonderful Life is the most
beautiful anyone has ever looked in ever, literally the history
of the world.

Speaker 2 (02:31:48):
No. I would lastle the Moon for her, seriously.

Speaker 1 (02:31:51):
George Bailey Lasts of Stork. She's so fucking hot in
that movie. It's crazy.

Speaker 2 (02:31:56):
Seriously,