Side Effects of Being Neurodivergent (with Margaux Joffe)

This week, we talk to Margaux Joffe, Board Certified Cognitive Specialist (BCCS), Certified Accessibility Professional (CPACC), and the founder of Minds of All Kinds. We get into the spectrum of neurodiversity, the social identity of neurodivergence, tools for coping with daily stressors and challenges, and learning how to advocate for yourself.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Small Dunces help from this small small human areal.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Small It's so funky. Welcome to Small Thoses Podcast.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
I am so excited to do this episode.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Man.

Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know, the whole neurodivergent journey is a long one
that you don't even realize you're on for many people.
I know I'm one of those people that didn't realize
I was on that journey until I was able to
put a name to it. And I was very fortunate
in this process to find out that someone that I
had been acquainted with that I didn't even know was
an expert in all these spaces, was an expert in
all these spaces. And that is today's guest, Margo Joffy.

(00:47):
And when we talk about neurodivergence, there may be a
lot of people listening who don't even really know what
that means, and so you should listen and keep listening
just for that reason, but also because there's actual practical
applications of tools that we talk about in this episode
that I don't think a lot of us may even
be getting from our professionals. So when we talk about neurodivergent,

(01:13):
we're talking about ADHD, we're talking about autism, we're talking
about OCD, We're talking about brains that function differently than
what is considered the norm. And so what I loved
about this episode is also being able to pinpoint, like, well,
what is considered the norm and what's considered outside of
the norm, and how do you fall on that, which
is why it's called a spectrum. When we get into

(01:35):
the conversation, you're gonna hear me, You're gonna hear me like,
oh my god, because I am still on this journey
and so there's so many AHA moments that I continue
to have that continue to bring me peace. So for
anybody out there who is neurospicy, for anybody out there
that has neurospicy friends, for anybody out there that has

(01:55):
neurospicy children or family members, I'm telling you and I
can't imagine and that I left anyone out by naming
those three things. This episode is for everybody, and I
think Margo does a really great job of grounding the
conversation outside of like the science and medicalness of it

(02:15):
and into the reality of it, which is what is
so absolutely necessary in order to actually face it and.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Connect with it and embrace So check it out. Let's
do it.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Side effects of being never diverge it with Margot Joffy.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Small Doses Podcast.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
This is a long overdue episode and I'm so happy
to have our guests today, Margo Jaffi, founder.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Of Minds of All Kinds.

Speaker 1 (02:48):
As we get into side effects of being neuro die burgeon,
which I feel like, correct me if I'm wrong with
the Doesn't it feel like this has become much more
a part of the zeitgeist in the last like three
to four years.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
Definitely, I think during the pandemic a lot more people
are getting diagnosed with ADHD autism, people talking about it
on TikTok. Definitely more in the mainstream, but also we
could be biased because we might just be looking for
it too tuche Okay.

Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, first, software Software Stoft tell.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Us all the background of how you became to be
a person. Who is the right person to talk to
us about this? And if you all hear a Meal,
you know that's Lando. You know Lando has cancer, so
he can do whatever he wants and he's sitting right
here with us. So if you hear Meal, that's what
that is.

Speaker 4 (03:43):
How I came to become a person.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
So, first of all, thank you so much. For having
me on this beautiful podcast that you've created. Thank you
for your platform for educating and uplifting so many people.
You have contributed tremendously.

Speaker 4 (04:02):
To our society. You are literally a gift to the world.

Speaker 3 (04:05):
And I appreciate you, and I'm so excited to come
and talk about neurodiversity. One of my favorite topics is
personal for me. I'm a neurodivergent woman and also professionally,
I'm a Board certified cognitive specialist. I'm certified in accessibility,
and I'm the founder of Minds of All Kinds, a
platform for neurodivergent people to learn, connect lead. My background

(04:29):
is actually in the creative field, so I spent the
first decade of my career as a producer, first producing
public health campaigns for the City of Boston, then going
to New York producing advertising, then moving out to Silicon
Valley and producing in tech and so it's been quite
a journey. But my career and my life really changed
when I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was twenty nine,

(04:51):
and that set me on a whole path of self
discovery and based on the struggles I had had, I
wanted to help others like me, and that led me
into a number of initiatives, launching the first of its
kind platform for and by women with ADHD ten years ago,
and then going on into the workplace, creating global peer
support network in tech, and doing an initiative with Getty

(05:13):
Images to improve how disability is represented in the media,
and ultimately starting my own company almost four years ago.
So it's been quite a journey. But at the end
of the day, I'm really trying to create a more
inclusive and accessible world for neurodivergent people. I want to
see a future where people with different types of minds
are not punished or policed, but they're valued, cherished in

(05:35):
every school, workplace, and community.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
I mean, I'm with you, sister, I just okay.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Can you actually tell us before we even dig deeper,
what are some of the more common forms or common
diagnoses that fall under the neurodivergent umbrella.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yes, thanks for bringing up that metaphor. So, neurodivergent is
really an umbrella term that was coined in two thousand
by Kasian Asas Sumasu, who's an Asian American autistic advocate,
and it is an umbrella term that means anyone whose
mind whose brain diverges from what is considered typical in society.

(06:16):
So if you weren't familiar with that term, that's the
basic idea. And about it's estimated like one in five
people are estimated to be neurodivergent. It's a very wide umbrella.
It can include anything from learning disabilities like dyslexia, dyscalculia, dyspraxia.
It can include neurodevelopmental conditions like attention deficit hyperactivity disorder ADHD, autism,

(06:40):
things like OCD.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
IDHD is ADD They just changed the name, right, yes, okay, yeah,
so it used to be two separate diagnoses.

Speaker 4 (06:47):
There used to be ADD and ADHD, And.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Basically in the latest DSM five, which is basically the
Big book where they classify all the mental disorders, it
was reclassified as ADHD umbrella. So if you get diagnosed
with ADHD today, you'll get diagnosed with ADHD, and then
they'll probably give you your subtype, so they'll say you're either
in attentive subtype or presentation hyperactive, impulsive, or combined where

(07:14):
you have a little bit of both worlds.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
Got it?

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Got it? So I cut you off?

Speaker 4 (07:18):
There was Oh no, you were good.

Speaker 3 (07:20):
I think your original question was about common so like,
I think dyslexia is one of the most commons, so
you think about it.

Speaker 1 (07:24):
I was asking, like, what are diagnoses that fall under
the neurodivergent like autism.

Speaker 3 (07:29):
Yeah, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, OCD, bipolar. Neurodivergence could be acquired, right,
So if you have long COVID, that's going to impact
your cognitive functioning. If you get in a car accident
and have a concussion, you might have an acquired brain
injury traumatic brain injury, So that's like ABI TBI, that's
going to impact your cognitive function So neurodivergence can be
innate or acquired, and it can look like a whole

(07:52):
number of things, right, schizophrenia. So it's not a medical diagnosis.
It's more of a social identity that people choose if
they want to identify with.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
See, before we started, I was like, you know, we're
gonna have this conversation. Mark's gonna end up answering questions.
I didn't even know I was asking.

Speaker 2 (08:08):
And that is a great example right there.

Speaker 1 (08:11):
Neurodivergence is not a diagnosis, it is a social identity.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
I love that and I think that's very helpful for
a lot of people.

Speaker 1 (08:20):
So talk to me about just illuminate for us the
necessity for spaces to be created like the ones you're
creating for neurodivergence, because I can say, as somebody who
verbalized like, yes, I am neurodivergent and I'm self diagnosed autistic,
that that immediately became a point of contention for people

(08:40):
like how dare you? But then it also became a
point for people of like you don't belong if that's
how your brain works, like, then you know you don't belong.
And I'd love to hear just you speak on how
that shows up in professional spaces and in schools, et cetera.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
It's not fair that you have been treated that way,
that what you say has been questioned or disbelieved. And
too many women, especially women of color, have that experience
where they're not listened to, they're not taken seriously, and
they're not given the support that they deserve. Especially within
the medical setting when you're going to seek a diagnosis.
Too many women are turned away saying, oh, you can't

(09:21):
have that, you have a master's degree, or you're just
stressed right, or you're overreacting, you're being difficult, You're being
too emotional. So this is not okay. And your question
about why is this important, I'm going to go straight
to the gravitas of why this matters. I think too
often people think about neurodivergence as they equate it to oh,

(09:42):
that's not real, or that's just a quirky personality trait.
But it is high stakes and the difference between winning
and losing is if you get identified and.

Speaker 4 (09:55):
Get the support.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
So, just to break it down, like to share some
stats about what I'm talking about, There was a study
that actually was published last month about life expectancy and ADHD,
So just to talk about ADHD specifically, this study found
that women with ADHD are living nine years less than
their peers, They're dying nine years earlier, and men with

(10:18):
ADHD are dying seven years earlier. And why is this happening?
And it's not just ADHD. When you look at autism,
autistic people are twice as likely to die prematurely. And
it's not because of the neurodivergence itself. It's because people
aren't getting identified and getting the support that they need.
And what that is leading to is things like struggles

(10:42):
with mental health eating disorders, abusive relationships, incarceration, challenges with employment,
financial issues, chronic stress, and all of this has devastating consequences.
And speaking about autistic women specifically, autistic women are thirty
ten times more likely to die by suicide than non

(11:03):
autistic oralistic women thirteen times more likely to die by suicide.
This is a public health crisis. And so when we
talk about why this matters, it's because there are serious
outcomes for people's lives. And that's why it is so
important that people have access to early identifications so they
can learn about their brain and get the support that
they need.

Speaker 4 (11:23):
So that they can support their well being.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
So just so you know, and I always fail to
say this in the beginning, but we can approach this
more as a conversation versus like question answer, question answer,
So just know that.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
I get so passionate, I get you know, it's like, oh,
I'm going to exhale. I'm going to exhale. It's like
I've spoken to so many people and all the stories
and all the experiences, and so thank you for platform
this topic, thank you for speaking about it publicly about

(12:04):
your own experience, because you have a powerful voice and
the way that you talk about it in your forthcoming book.
This is going to reach people and resonate in ways
that they've never been able to experience before.

Speaker 2 (12:16):
Thank you so much for saying that, y'all.

Speaker 1 (12:18):
I put up the draft of my chapter on autism
on my own Autism. I put up the draft of
the chapter on my Patreon, and so folks got to
read it, and Margo got a chance to read it
and gave me such incredible feedback and encouragement. And it's like,
I know that as somebody who myself only saw autism

(12:42):
as one version of things, I never considered that I
could be honestly in this space because of the stigma
and because of the misinformation. So I was like denying
myself the information to free myself, and I would have
like inklings because I would see things. I was just

(13:05):
talking about how on this season of Moameir's show, Mo
his brother who is autistic on the show learns that
he is autistic, like he gets named and he goes
to a psychiatrist, and his monologue talking about his life experience.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
With it felt like it was me. I was like,
this is me.

Speaker 1 (13:28):
And when you say women with autism have such high
levels of taking their own lives. I'm not surprised because
there's a certain level of just one mystery, but also
of you just get tired of making people feel uncomfortable,
Like you get tired of feeling like you're the common
right when people say like, oh, you're the common denominator.
You get tired of being the common denominator to other

(13:51):
people's discomfort and your own misery.

Speaker 4 (13:55):
Other people's in your own misery, and you're literally just existing.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
And you you're trying to change things that are maybe
like behavioral or whatever.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
And I think there's things.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
That you practice at right, like you know, and you
can become more practiced at, but it's still it's an effort.
I mean, it's not like it's a natural thing. I
mean I think that theoretically we're like it's like kung foul.
If you just wax all wax off long enough, it
becomes natural. It's like, yeah, but you're still when you
get in the ring, you got to be able to
pull it out of there, and you don't know what

(14:29):
you're going to.

Speaker 3 (14:29):
Be facing, and that's tiring, and all that effort leads
to cron you know, it's exhaustion. So when you're masking,
and you're in a constant state of masking and changing
your behavior and your tone of voice and the way
that you speak and the way that you interact with people.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
It takes a lot of energy.

Speaker 3 (14:46):
And then you get to a certain point where some
people I've talked to and said they don't know what's
the difference of the mask and then who they really
are because they've had to mask everywhere in school, at work,
at home and their relationships.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
Can you actually illuminate for folks what masking is.

Speaker 4 (15:01):
Yes. So masking, simply put, is like putting on a mask.

Speaker 3 (15:05):
So you are changing your appearance or your behavior to
conform and be accepted in society and the spaces you're in,
and it's incredibly exhausting.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
I think part of the exhausty is that it's not finite.
There's so many masks for so many spaces.

Speaker 4 (15:23):
Yes, oh my goodness, and the layers.

Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah, it's not like you put it on in one
environment and then you can take it off. And it's
not like code switching where it's like I'm here, but
then now I can be here where I'm in a
safe space. But I would say what is similar is
when you do come into recognition of your neurodivergence, and
you do have that consciousness. Being in community with neurodivergent
people can be so healing and joyful places where you

(15:49):
can start the process of unmasking and being okay to
just just be without changing who you are and neurodivergent
French like, just to talk about that for a second.
I mean, the joy and the experience of that cannot
even adequately be expressed in words. It's like finding your people.

(16:11):
So one of my best friends, his name is Eric.
He's autistic and ADHD so OUDHD. He lives in DC
and we met professionally, and then now we message each
other every single day. It was on WhatsApp, but now
we change over to signal and every day we're checking
in things like did you eat lunch? Have you drink
water today? And then we celebrate the small winds. And

(16:33):
what I'm talking about is like if we folded our laundry,
you know, or went to the grocery store, if we're
doing something adulting, and he'll message me, I picked up
my dry cleaning. I've been procrastinating that, and then I'm
sending him all the emojis and celebrating. We have a
joke about unfolded laundry because folding laundry is one of
the banes of our existence.

Speaker 4 (16:54):
So I will have la today. Yeah, the pile of.

Speaker 3 (16:58):
Laundry on the bed, so I have like, now I've
just gotten please you know, you just like push it over.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
To one half of the bed and then you sleep
on the other. No. So, but so this is the thing.
But what we can do is we.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
Can design our environments for the reality of life and
the reality of who we are versus this aspirational idea
of who we are or who at life should be.
So like I have a laundry like basket thingy for
clean clothes, so when I take them out of the dryer,
I can just put them in there and put it
in my closet and when I have the time to

(17:35):
fold it, I will.

Speaker 4 (17:35):
But then it's not stressing me out.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
It's not on my bed, and then I'm not seeing
it because the visual clutter also for me can bother
me because then that's the visual over stimulation.

Speaker 2 (17:45):
So it's just cracked a code for me.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
I cracked a code for Amanda Seals. Let me put
that on my LinkedIn.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Ah I'm ordering that.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
I'm going to get that.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Like I've been really working on my consumerism. So it's like,
what areet you need versus just like, oh, this is
the thing. Like I had to tell my mom today
stop sending me all this orph because my mom just
sends me things.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
And I'm like, this is consumerism. We need to check this.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
But that's right there, that's not consumerism that will help
change my life. But what do you say to people
who say, well, it just sounds like you're just busy.
It doesn't sound like you're neurodivergent, Like it sounds like
you're just busy and that's why you didn't fold the clothes.

Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah, it can be frustrating because a lot of times
neurodivergent experiences are minimized. People say, that's not that hard,
just do it. Stop being lazy. Why can't you just blank?
Have you tried using a planner? Right, So, like all
of these things that minimize the experience, and it's like, yeah,
everyone gets busy from time to time. Everybody lets their

(18:47):
laundry pilot from time to time, of course, right, And
that's okay too, Right, we're all messy humans and we
don't have to aspire to this like idea of perfection,
but at the same time, when it gets to a
point where you're struggling with the daily life tasks and
they're piling it up and causing this level of stress
that's interfering with your well being. Not everybody experiences that,

(19:10):
and not everybody has challenges with executive functioning skills, and
that's one of the other big misconceptions. So a lot
of different forms of neurodivergence, whether it's autism, ADHD, dyslexia,
long COVID, dramatic brain injury, they all impact this frontal
area in our brain that has to do with our
executive functioning skills. Skills like task activation, which is getting

(19:32):
started on tasks, planning, organizing, prioritizing, decision making, managing effort
and time. So that can look like from the outside,
if you don't know, you might be judged as, oh,
that person just being lazy, why can't they just get
started on that project, when really they're just struggling with
the task activation. They may be struggling with just getting started.

(19:55):
But the good news is their strategies there's things we
can do, and so that's what I get. So passionate
about sharing with others is knowing that you don't have
to fall into this learned helplessness like, oh, well I
have this, so I can't do that. It's like no,
Like there's strategies and skills you can try. You can
make your toolbox and then you can move through life
with a little bit greater ease.

Speaker 1 (20:13):
What would you say, are like two tools that you
have found to be really effective in application?

Speaker 3 (20:18):
Yes, so many things. One of the things I teach
in my program ADHD Navigators is like we start with
the abcs of getting shit done without losing your shit.
So automation, body doubling, and chunking. Automation is if there's
routine things that you can automate, put it on automatic
or outsource so you don't have to do it. Great
body doubling doing it with somebody else. So if you're

(20:41):
going to fold laundry, like call your friend and talk
on the phone, so you you're like having somebody with you.
So basically, boring shit is easier when you're doing it
with a friend.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
That's what I do to package my orders, Like I
go on Live and at first I was doing that
because it was like, oh I can talk about the
thing that I'm packaging.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
But then I realized, no, this is.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Allowing me to do this far more effectively, like I
can like stay in it longer.

Speaker 3 (21:11):
Yes, because packaging the orders is repetitive, it's mundane, it's
not using your brain, and so then your brain becomes bored.
It's not stimulating enough. And so for the type of
brain you have, we have stimulation seeking brains. So if
something is too mundane and easy and boring, it's like
anyone may find that boring, but for us it can
feel like climbing Mount Everest just to get something simple done.

(21:33):
And so that's where we can think about how can
we And I love I have this whole like Salt
Bay metaphor I talk about, but it's like thinking about
sprinkling some stimulation on those mundane and boring tasks. And
you get into the brain science and learn about the
drivers of motivation, specifically in the ADHD brain. But this

(21:54):
can be relevant for other people too who struggle with motivation.
Is that we have what is called an interest based
nervous system. Psychiatrist William Dotson talks about this. So it
basically means if we're interested in something it's going to
be way easier for us to focus and do it.
We're not always motivated by external rewards and consequences in
the way that other people are, So we're motivated by

(22:16):
things like urgency, novelty, interest, challenge. So when things are novel,
they're new, they're exciting. Like your podcast, right, you have
different guests every time, so there's always that novelty factor,
keeps it stimulating, keeps it engaging.

Speaker 2 (22:30):
This is by design.

Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yes, literally, when I created this podcast, I said to myself,
you need to do a podcast that has a framework
because I have simultaneously, I have a need for a
certain amount of routine because it gives me comfort, but
then there also has to be variety so that I
don't get bored. That's why, like a lot of my

(22:56):
creative work on stage will have form but improv because
I want there to be something that grounds us, but
I also need there to be a variety. So whenever
you see me do stand up, you never see the
same show twice.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
What would the ancestors say, same thing.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
I'm in the process of writing a film right now,
and I genuinely Margo don't want to write the screenplay
because I feel like it's gonna bore the shit out
of me to write the screenplay. I would rather just
write the scenes and have like lines that I know
that I want to get said, and otherwise like let
it just happen and like kind of direct the happening

(23:32):
of it.

Speaker 2 (23:33):
And I know.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
People may be like, well, that's not writing, but it
sounds like it to me. But I was gonna say
to the point of interest bace nervous system. When I
was a kid, my mom would be like, she'd be
in the car, like, man's can you go get my purse?
I forgot my purse and I would be like ugh,
and then she would just start counting and then I
would rush. But like it didn't matter how many times

(23:54):
she did this. I would be like, Okay, how fast
did I do it?

Speaker 2 (23:58):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (23:58):
Because now it's a game.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
It's so it's kind of like if you need to
clean your house, like invite your friends over a brunch,
because it's like, oh shit, people are coming over.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
Wait, am I allowed to swear on this? I didn't
ask in the beginning.

Speaker 3 (24:09):
Okay, it's like, oh people are coming over, now I
need to clean. And you have that element of challenge
and the urgency, and you have a deadline because deadlines
are helpful for us, right, and then your house is
going to be the cleanest it's been all week.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
I remember getting stood up by a guy and I
texted him and was just like, thank you for giving
me a reason to clean my house. That house was big, and.

Speaker 4 (24:41):
My house is never more clean than when I'm inviting
somebody over.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Literally, I had to do a shoot in the house
yesterday and I made things happen magically that I have
been looking at that making happen for weeks. So automation
body doubling, I'm learning so much automation body doubling.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
What's the sea C is for chunking?

Speaker 3 (25:08):
So it sounds basic, but basically thinking about when you
have a big project, breaking it down into small chunks,
small easy pieces. So this is kind of counter to
what you may hear neurotypical productivity advice. If you've ever
in those books about productivity, they talk about things like
eat the frog, do the hardest thing. First, have you
heard that expression eat the frog?

Speaker 1 (25:28):
No?

Speaker 2 (25:31):
Is that like if you're on fear factor, eat the frog.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
It's like in these productivity books about getting things done.
Because we live in this society that's obsessed with productivity
and output and it's informed by capitalism, and it's not
okay that we live in a society where the value
of a human being's life is based on how productive
they can be or how much they can output.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
Correct.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
And that's why, like within the disability space and in
disability justice, we talk about every human life has value.
Everybody in mind is unique and essential, and we want
to avoid creating this hierarchy of worth where we talk
about people being like high functioning and low functioning, right,
because then you're basically assigning value on somebody's life based
on how productive they are, how much they can function

(26:13):
within the society. That's very dysfunctional.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
Ooh, what is the better terminology to use to address
an autistic person who may not be able to care
for themselves at the same level as another autistic person.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
Yeah, So advocates talk about support needs, So talking about
what your support needs are or somebody who has higher
support needs or lower support needs it, and that's actually
more specific and more informative. Yeah, right, And your support
needs can change because disability is dynamic, So some days
you may have lower support needs and then there may

(26:48):
be other times or periods in your life or life
stages if your body's changing, your hormones changing, where maybe
you're going to need more support. So if you use
the terminology high functioning and low functioning, you're not a
bad person. Like I actually used to refer to myself
as somebody who had high functioning ADHD. I also have
been diagnosed with depression, generalized anxiety disorder and PMDD, and

(27:12):
I used to refer to myself as high functioning until
I started being more in community learning from organizations like
the Autistic Self Advocacy Network and advocates talking and encouraging
folks to move away from functioning labels because what it
does is for high functioning folks are people with lower
support needs. It actually puts them on a pedestal without support,

(27:33):
and it kind of minimizes the real challenges, like you
being a person who's highly gifted, highly talented, extreme intellectual
and communication abilities. Thanks, but if we put you on
this pedestal as like, look at this savant like person
who's high functioning, then it puts you in a position

(27:54):
where your needs are minimized, and then you're not a
position people won't take you serius so when you ask
for support.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
That's literally been my whole life is like, you are
high functioning, so you don't need support, Like that's part
of me and my mom's constant beef. It's like this
idea that you're gonna figure it out so you don't
need anything from anyone at any time. And at this
age you've kind of been built that way now. So

(28:24):
there's a part of that that is this accepting that,
and then there's a part of that that's like parsing
through what part of that exception is harming you still
or harming your ability to be in like partnerships. Right,
But that idea of the high functioning, like I talk
about it in the essay that I put in my
book when I was eleven, this idea that like, well,

(28:44):
if you're smart, you can never ask questions, you know,
and if you're smart, you can never not know the
answer if you're gifted. But I think the functionality part
of it changing is fascinating because I can absolutely say
that I'm like a super duper pril lift, Like I
am productive just by nature of I'm really efficient, so

(29:05):
I can get things done really fast. Right, It doesn't
mean that I don't get tired. It doesn't mean that
I don't get exhausted, and I think for some people
they look at that as like, oh, she just doesn't
need breaks or she doesn't need assistance.

Speaker 2 (29:24):
So I know that as I've gotten older.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
I have developed add that requires a lot more tools.
I think I've always had that to an extent, but
I was functional to the point of being able to
kind of make it work for me by the nature
of the jobs that I've been in. But as I've
gotten older, I've realized, like, yeah, you need to talk

(29:48):
to your psychiatrist about some real too. That's why I'm
over here taking notes automation, body doubling, chugging, because when
you said chunking, So what I've noticed, even with like
so doing fulfillment, when you have when you're so things
and you have to do your own fulfillment, it is
the most interminable and also really mistake ridden space of

(30:11):
the work.

Speaker 2 (30:12):
And I don't like making mistakes.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
So it's like, how do I solve for both of
those things?

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, that means I need to have more time.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
But chunking has been helpful because I can fill the orders.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
With the promo items first.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
So that when I'm actually filling the orders based on
who ordered what, I'm only thinking about putting that in
the package versus promo items.

Speaker 2 (30:42):
And that does that make sense?

Speaker 4 (30:44):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (30:45):
So that's chunking, right, Yes, Okay.

Speaker 4 (30:47):
That's chunking doing it one step at a time.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
Because a lot of people struggle with overwhelm, so they're
thinking about all the steps that need to happen to
get something done, and they're holding all of that in
the brain at once, and it's super overwhelming. So with chunking,
it's about also just focusing on the one step at
a time to not get overwhelmed, Like, what do I
need to do now? Okay, I'm just printing this label

(31:12):
for Sandra yep, and now I'm doing this and just
like also breathing and also being in our bodies.

Speaker 4 (31:19):
And breathing, also lowering the bar. Yeah, that's that's essential
for life.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
It's essential for life.

Speaker 4 (31:30):
Can you hear my dog? Of course? Is now the
can you hear them?

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (31:34):
He's telling us, He's like, breathe, bitch, Like that's what
he's saying. So what's the d we got automation body doubling, chunking.

Speaker 3 (31:44):
The chunking, the last thing I'll say is also lowering
the bar, because sometimes we put the highest expectations on ourselves,
even more so than neurotypical people. And not everything requires
A plus work. Sometimes it's a c's get degrees situation.

Speaker 2 (32:05):
And again with the yelling, please stop yelling at me.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
There was this woman in my ADHD program. She said
something and I like still remember it. She said, because
we were talking about this idea of done is better
than perfect, because perfectionism is something that a lot of
late diagnosed neurodivergent folks struggle with, especially women, and so
is you know, this discussion about how is this need
for perfection holding you back more than it's helping you.

(32:31):
And we're talking about this idea of done is better
than perfect, which in the creative field, you know, we
know that well. And she said, B minus work can
still change the world. B minus work can still change
the world. And that really resonated with me and I
share that because sometimes we're aiming for a plus and
then if it's not eight plus, we don't even put
it out there, and so we're robbing the world of

(32:53):
this gift that we have inside. And just remembering like
B minus work can still make a huge impact on
someone's life.

Speaker 1 (33:00):
Listen. I've had to like really really do a lot
of work to that. Like I shot something yesterday and
like we had messed up continuity for something, like I
had like put earrings on and I didn't have earrings
on before.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
And I could tell that.

Speaker 1 (33:14):
The videographer was kind of like, oh my god, Like,
and I've had to work so hard to be like,
it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because everything else that
we did, like if that's what people pay attention to.

Speaker 2 (33:27):
Listen, We're not doing a Scorsesey film. That's not what
this particular project calls for, so we don't need to
hold it to that standard.

Speaker 4 (33:35):
You know, I get it.

Speaker 3 (33:36):
It's challenging though, because you're an artist and you have
an appreciation of beauty and excellence and that's what makes
your work excellent and that's what makes it impactful. So
it's also right, it's just finding that sweet spot what
is the middle ground?

Speaker 2 (33:49):
But errors make it human. Yeah, So that's what I've
had to learn.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
I feel like I will over obsess about something in
like my visual art, and I've had to really lean
into you know, there's errors and then there's like vibes.

Speaker 2 (34:05):
You know, this is just adding a vibe.

Speaker 4 (34:08):
Yes, so it's adding some texture.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Yeah yeah, yeah exture.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
When I started taking the test from my autism, one
of the things that just off top let me know
like you might be on the spectrum was like one
of the first questions was like, definitely, kind of not
at all. It's like, you know, that's the range. And
it was like you like stuft animals?

Speaker 2 (34:37):
I was like, because they're everywhere.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
I mean, there's a bat right here, Like it's just
it's od and those when I will go in stores
and I see those types of things, I'm like.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Is anyone else buying this but me? Because I'm buying this. Yeah,
but the squash mellow I have one.

Speaker 4 (34:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (34:56):
So like I'd love to hear from you, like what
is it that attracts of the stuffed animals?

Speaker 4 (35:01):
Like is it the is it the texture? Is it
just like the pure cuteness.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
It's the cuteness.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
It's like I want that in my world, Like I
want that cuteness. I want that shape, the roundness, I
want the texture, like the furriness, like I want it
in my world. I always travel with the stuffed animal,
even if I never take it out the bag.

Speaker 4 (35:25):
It's just there, knowing that it's there.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Yes, in each no, literally in every bag there is
a stuffed animal.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
One has a little turquoise bat.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
And it's like I see these things in these stores
in the airport, you know, like beanie babies, and I'm
almost like, is anyone else buying this? But yes, Margot,
yes I am.

Speaker 4 (35:51):
Fair so D so this is the ABC is because
that's the starting point.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
I thought it was a D all right. I thought
it was the ABC right right, right, Okay.

Speaker 3 (36:00):
But there's other frameworks, other things we talked about.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
But yeah, when did you know? Okay, I need to
get like something is actually wrong. Wrong is not the word,
but something is actually impeding me from living fully and
I need to look into it.

Speaker 3 (36:15):
I had a meltdown in Ikea. So I actually never
thought I had ADHD. I never thought I was neurodivergent.
I mean I hadn't even heard the term neurodiversity. So
I was diagnosed eleven years ago now, and.

Speaker 4 (36:29):
I knew at an.

Speaker 3 (36:30):
Early age that I felt a little something was different
about me, but because that was the only brain I
ever had, Like, I just never knew anything different, right,
like if you're in the water, you don't know if
it's cloudy.

Speaker 4 (36:40):
Not that my brain is cloudy, but you know what
I mean.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
And I was always passionate about social issues. I wanted
to be a photojournalist and travel the world and you know,
tell stories to like educate and make positive impact. And
quickly I started struggling with depression and anxiety in high
school and was diagnosed with depression when I was eighteen.

(37:05):
And I was just all consumed by things that were
happening in the world, like I think the War on
Iraq had just started, and I was part of the
student protesting group, and I just absorbed everything. And I
started just chalking it up to, well, I'm just too sensitive.
I just need to toughen up, right, Like this is
just the way the world is. Stop being naive, Like
these were all the messages, right, And I just started

(37:26):
getting this idea of myself as just a sensitive, creative
soul and you know, I'm a water sign. So I
started looking for explanations to try to explain why I
was so highly sensitive. I thought, well, I'm just being lazy,
you know, when I would struggle with things like procrastination,
So I started using coping mechanisms like workoholism, perfectionism, people pleasing,

(37:49):
all of these things that we do to survive.

Speaker 4 (37:52):
And as a producer, I was in a.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
Really great career fit because it was fast paced, highly stimulating,
I was working with creative people. I was, for the
most part in my career thriving, but I was still
struggling with depression, anxiety, and sensory overload episodes. I have
sensory processing sensitivities, and so what that means is I'm
highly sensitive to information in my environment. So that could

(38:16):
be visuals, you know, lights, noises, smells, textures, the way
that certain clothing feels.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
And so I didn't know this.

Speaker 3 (38:26):
And so there's examples even when I was from when
I was a kid until adult, where I would have
meltdowns and shutdowns, but I didn't know what was happening,
and there was a lot of shame and embarrassment. So
like one time in New York, you know how they
do the free concerts in Central Park. Yeah, so it
was after work and my friends with a bunch of friends,
we were meeting and it was like the big lawn
where there's like hundreds of people. It's like a sea

(38:48):
of people and we're waiting for the concert to start,
and we're on the picnic blanket and I'm like looking
around it. There's like so much just talking, visual commotion,
the visual over stimulation. And I was in the middle
of the sea of all of these blankets, and I
started feeling like I was having a panic attack, and
I started like shutting down, like I was finding it

(39:09):
difficult to speak, and I didn't know what was happening.
So I just kind of made up a light and
told my friends, like, hey, I have a headache, I'm
not feeling well.

Speaker 4 (39:18):
I have to go home and finish up something for work.
I don't remember.

Speaker 3 (39:20):
I made up some light thing, and I remember I
was just like, let me just get out of here.
And it was like really hard to like get out
without stepping on people's blankets. And I got to the
edge of Central Park and it was just getting dark
and it was like that paved walkway, and I just
started crying. I was like sobbing, ugly crying, and I
didn't even know why. And that was just one of many.

(39:42):
That's like one micro moment of many a string of moments, right,
But that was in.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
New York is the height of over stimulation.

Speaker 3 (39:51):
And it's amazing, Like there's no quick exit now until
like quick release, Like I just need to like take
a sensory No, yes, because they make you go through
the whole maze of the whole entire store, even if
you're like I just need like a pillow or whatever.
It is so fast forward. I moved out to the
Bay Area for a new job. I was working at
a nonprofit media company and my parents are in the
Bay Area. So I asked my mom if she would

(40:12):
come with me to Ikea because I needed to get
some stuff from my new apartment.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
It was a Sunday. It was super crowded.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
It was like hot, and there's like kids screaming, and
you know, it was like crowd is Iikeia.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Ikea and Costco on a Sunday is just oh, my
goodness for anybody for what it's worth.

Speaker 3 (40:30):
No, I like going grocery shopping at night when it's
like empty, no one's there, and I don't know they
do sensory hours at stores, but they do it from
like six am till this am, and I'm like I'm.

Speaker 4 (40:40):
Sleeping, like stop it.

Speaker 3 (40:42):
Like these stores are like we're launching sensory friendly hours
and it's like six am, and I'm like.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
These aren't friendly hours. Yea human friendly.

Speaker 4 (40:51):
So the neurodivergent storytelling. See we went around me.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
If you go to an Amanda Seals talk, this is
what you're gonna get.

Speaker 2 (40:57):
I'll come back. But we're gonna dovetail.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yes, we're dovetailing. I don't even so when people say
let's dovetail, like, I don't understand what that, how that
came about?

Speaker 4 (41:07):
Like what does dovetail mean?

Speaker 2 (41:09):
Let's google.

Speaker 4 (41:10):
I know what a dove is and what the tail is,
but like, where.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Did the phrase let's dovetail originate? Okay, the term dovtail.
The etymology of the name comes from the resemblance between
the tenin or mortise of the joint to the shape
of a dove's tail. In Europe, the devetail joint is
sometimes called a swallowtail joint a curved tail joint. The
meaning of dovetail basically.

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Things coming together, things coming together coming together.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
But that's how anyone that uses it. Everyone I see
uses it means like we're gonna.

Speaker 3 (41:46):
Divert Yeah, well maybe we can ask corporate Aaron offline
about this, because she probably knows what that is.

Speaker 1 (41:53):
I mean, I was gonna go even further because I remember,
like my ex, I do believe. I believe that we
actually we may have made it if both of us
knew that we were neurodivergent and could help ourselves. I mean,
he had other stuff going on that was more related
to I think unresolved trauma, but I think like, if
he wasn't also dealing with the other thing, then maybe

(42:15):
he could have managed that, because I, without question, after
knowing this man for twenty years, I'm like and also
because we share similar things, Like I remember I had
him go to Costco to help me, like do something,
and he was like, I can't go back. But he
was never able to verbalize his stuff. So that was
part of the problem, right, And in hindsight, I'm like, oh,
you couldn't. It was overstimulating, Like you could not handle

(42:37):
the overstimulation. And if you had just said it's too
overstimulating for me, then we could have talked about, well
can you go back at a time when it's less stimulating,
and now we would have solved it.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Yes, And That's why I'm so passionate about helping Neurodivirgin
people like even just understand themselves and then building their
toolbox because there's so many things we can do to
support ourselves. So like now if I'm I went to
Costco with somebody formerly I was dating, and I have
loop ear plugs, just ear plugs, and so if it
gets too loud, and then also just communicating with my

(43:10):
partner so they know. And then it's like, oh, if
I can have a shorthand to say, hey, I'm getting overstimulated,
I'm going to step outside, I'll come back and find
you and it's not a big deal and it's just
like okay, and I can take care of myself. I
can do what I need to do, and then I'm
preventing having these episodes, right, And so it can look
different for everyone.

Speaker 4 (43:28):
But if you are experiencing sensory.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Overload, it can look like you can have an angry outburst.
You can have an emotional response so you're crying even
though you're not like sad about anything. You can have
gastrointestinal issues, you can get a headache. It can just
like literally impact your body because one or more of
your senses is being flooded with too much information and
your brain can't process it, so then you're melting down

(43:51):
or you're shutting.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Down, Margo when I tell you that, Like, so your
version of like how you said, like these are just
like a series of different moments like your meltdown.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
My version of meltdown is a melt up, a blow up.

Speaker 1 (44:13):
Yes, And I'm also a black woman, right and also
like I'm theater trained, so when I blow up, it's
gonna be resonant. And so this has really misrepresented me
in many ways because it looks like I'm being mean,

(44:34):
it looks like I'm being impatient, and I understand that
it looks like that, but what it's really a result
of is like my brain going.

Speaker 4 (44:47):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (44:49):
And I think before I knew that, I didn't know
how to curtail it happening or how to alert people
to like I need this thing to happen in this
way to help. And so what it sounded more like
was me giving orders, yes, And it probably was like
that's what I was doing. I was giving orders versus like,
you know, hey, can we do this? Because and so

(45:12):
I know that so much of the stigma around like
Amanda seels.

Speaker 2 (45:14):
Is difficult is because yes, it has.

Speaker 1 (45:18):
Been difficult to be me like for me, it has
been physically, mentally, emotionally difficult. So there are people who
have had to interact with that and it's like.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, I feel you, sister, I feel.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
You, brother. So when you talk about those things, it's
like I see it. I mean, I'm writing a story
in the book about when I was on this photo
shoot with Essence Magazine and Grenada.

Speaker 4 (45:44):
And the one of you on the boat.

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Yes, and over the course of the day these poses.

Speaker 4 (45:52):
No, it was amazing. And then the flowing in the wind.

Speaker 3 (45:54):
Like I'm a visual person, so yes, I see it
in my mind.

Speaker 1 (45:58):
The Valentino dress on Savvy's boots in the carnage.

Speaker 2 (46:03):
But over the course of the day.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
So one of my hypersensitivities is I need information. If
I am not getting information, like it really affects me
in a very real way. Yes, And I know that
for some people that looks like me trying to be
bossy or me trying to like micromanage, and I'm just
really trying to understand where I'm at in the world. Yes, Yes,

(46:27):
that's literally what it is. Like, I'm trying to understand
where we're at in the world. It's not about me
giving permission. It's a lot of times just me wanting
to just be a part of the world that I'm in.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
So over the course of the.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Day, they're just kept being more and more decisions being
made that did not include me, that were only affecting me.

Speaker 4 (46:45):
Yes, everyone's literally there for you, like that's your shoot.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
It's literally like I'm the center of the shoot, and
I'm being completely like ignored and also like not made
privy to things that are shifting, and it just starts
to make me feel uncomfortable. Also, you're driving in a
van with like eight people. You're driving through Grenada, which
itself is overstimulating, like it's just you know, and it's
very like, Okay, we're gonna go.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
Here, we do this.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
And then we reached a point where I realized that
they had cut one of the scenes from the shoot.
Then I was like, we just passed the waterfall, Like
why aren't we going there? And they were like, oh,
we're just weird and we're not gonna be able to
because we have to get to Belmont Estate or else
are going to cancel. So my other thing is just
as sensitivity. So if you lie to me, yes, yes,
some people might take lies as just like whatever. I

(47:33):
take it as a front.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
So when they said that Margot, my aunt owns Belmont Estate,
you're telling me that she said we were gonna get
canceled if we don't get there at.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
A certain time. You're telling me Shadell is about the kit.
So I called Shaddell.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
We're in the van and I said, shadel they said
that if we don't get there on time, you're going
to cancel. She say, hell, you mean cancel? We live, yeah,
and you'll come in, So what I mean cancel? So
then I call an audible and we were passing through
the rainforest and I was like, can we stop here
so we can make up for the shot that they
canceled right here. And the point of the story was

(48:13):
that when I asked them to do that, they literally
had someone come to the van, open the door and like,
sternly tell me, you are not in charge here. You
don't get to have a say.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
You need to just go along with what's happening and
just deal with it. And when she closed that door,
I was.

Speaker 3 (48:34):
Like, yeah, and don't tell us what to do, Oh
my gosh, And don't tell us what to do cause
it's going to trigger the oppositional force.

Speaker 1 (48:45):
Can you talk more about that, because oh my, you're
busting me over right now, because I try and tell
people don't tell me what to do, and they don't
understand what that's about. When I'm doing views from Amandoland
and people are in the comments and they'll be like,
you need to do it's really like get that, please,
talk more to that, please.

Speaker 3 (49:04):
So it's interesting because we see with autistic folks and
ADHD there can be oppositional behavior, and so sometimes that
can be misconstrued, especially in school, because school is all
about being obedient and being likable, and so for people
that like, for example, I used to get in trouble
in school for asking why say, asking too many questions

(49:28):
literally asking questions, And so for some kids, asking questions
is how they learn. It's part of their learning style,
is part of their processing style. And this plays out
in the workplace. So in the workplace when people are
seeking information, like you said, you need more information so
that you can understand. And they talk about autistic people
being bottom up thinkers, so you like to have a
lot of the details to be able to come and

(49:49):
understand the big picture versus other people being top down thinkers.
So when you're asking questions, sometimes it's misinterpreted as you
are being oppositional, you're being difficult. You aren't questioning your boss,
you're questioning their authority. And so one of the things
I tell managers when I go in and do trainings
in workplaces is if someone's asking questions, don't assume they're
questioning you or questioning your.

Speaker 4 (50:10):
Authority or trying to be difficult.

Speaker 3 (50:11):
They may just genuinely just be seeking information so that
they can do their job, do the thing. And also,
some of us are conceptual learners and processors, so we
need to understand the big picture and how all the
piece is connect in order to do our piece. And
not everyone is that, but I'm highly conceptual too, so
I need to know the why behind what we're doing.

(50:32):
I need to know what everyone else is doing so
I understand how my piece connects.

Speaker 4 (50:36):
So the thing is it.

Speaker 3 (50:37):
Can be powerful when we just have this awareness about ourselves.
Then we can even just tell people like, hey, you
know sometimes ask a lot of questions. It helps me,
It helps me understand what we're doing here. But the
oppositional piece, because of racism and because of bias and
the medical system. We see that young children, so black boys,
for example, are five times more likely to be diagnosed

(50:58):
with oppositional defiant disorder or another behavior or conduct disorder
rather than getting an accurate diagnosis of autism. So a
lot of times behaviors the same behavior is seen as
somebody being non compliant, being oppositional, when they may in
fact have a learning disability. They may in fact be autistic,

(51:20):
they may have ADHD, right, they may just be learning differently.
So we need to know that learning looks different for everyone,
and we need to support and empower educators also with
this knowledge too, so that they can teach to all
different types of learning styles.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
I knew this was going to be good marks, I knew,
but I didn't know it was going to be this good.
I mean because when you were just talking about the
whole questions thing and like letting people know, like now
that I know myself better, even my business relations manager
a Kathia, She's able to communicate to people before I

(51:58):
go to places like this is how she's going to
show up, you know, this is how she exists in
the space, so that they also are understanding already having
a context of like, oh, this is what she's about.
And what's interesting is that, prior to her being the
person that is like my liaison, I've always had men
and I've never at any point had a male manager

(52:22):
or agent. I would say Matthew Horowitz is probably the closest. Well,
I'll say managers. I've never had a male manager at
any point. Be curious about my needs to be able
to communicate them beyond my needs of like what's on
my writer, you know, like what do I want in
my dressing room? What do I want on stage? And

(52:43):
so like those questions never mattered because as a talent,
you're also expected to not have any needs. By the way,
when you're in that entertainment world, no, unless you're like
Beyonce and Jlo, who are like I need sixty two
white doves in my dressing room, you don't get to
have needs. And so, you know, shout out to Jesse

(53:04):
Collins because he executive produced my special and I've worked
with him the number of times, and when I did
the BET Awards, he told me that he had when
he met with the crew, he let them know, this
is how Amanda Seals works. This is how we will
get the best out of Amanda seals she requires information.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
Uh huh, so we're gonna.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
Provide her with all And that him telling me what
he told them was the first time that I professionally
was able to really realize like, oh, I guess I
am different like in my needs and he was like
able to communicate it to me in a way that
I could communicate with someone else. And I used to
date this dude Wordsworth back in the day, and he

(53:45):
did that same thing for me with men. He was like,
anyone who's dating you need to know this, and he
like wrote out a list.

Speaker 4 (53:52):
He created a user manual for you.

Speaker 1 (53:57):
Well, we are about to create a Patreon only said
now speaking of user manuals that have been created for me.
When I first was like kind of navigating my way
through this self diagnosis, I spoke to Margo and we
actually were able to get up for lunch.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
And were we in DC?

Speaker 4 (54:15):
Where were we Baltimore?

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Baltimore.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yes, we got up for lunch while I was doing
stand up in Baltimore, and Margo put me onto the
default default.

Speaker 4 (54:25):
The default mode network.

Speaker 1 (54:26):
Default mode network and the task positive network, and learning
about these two different brain functions has been a game changer.
And we're going to talk about it right here when
we move over to the Seal Squad for our Patreon
only segment, So come and check.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
Us out the last.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
What I think one of the biggest parts of like
the neuro divergent brain is for people to understand, is that, like,
everybody has their own idiosyncrasies, right, Yes, but it's like
a mount and frequency that those idiosyncrasies exist.

Speaker 2 (55:14):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 3 (55:15):
Yes, So we're all of this spectrum of neurodiversity, all
of us as humans. Right, So we live in a
world of minds of all kinds in our human species.
There's no such thing as a normal brain. And that's
different than what we grew up understanding. Yes, because when
we grew up, I mean, I'm just a few years
younger than you. There's two boxes. You're either normal, you're
not normal, is it right? You're either normal or you're crazy,

(55:37):
and no one wants to be in the crazy box.
And so when this term neurodiversity came around in the
late nineties, that was a paradigm shift because now it's like, oh,
brain differences are a natural part of human diversity. We're
all somewhere on this spectrum of neurocognitive functioning. There's no
such thing as a normal brain. And then within that
you have neurodivergent, where you actually do have brain differences

(55:59):
that are significant enough that it's impacting people's everyday life,
how they experience the world around them, how they learn,
how they interact with others, how they communicate, and their brain.
Our brain is divergent, It diverges from what is considered
normal in our society.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
So the last question I'll ask is, I remember when
I first learned about my autism, and I was speaking
to my assistant at the time, and I was telling her,
like these revelations I was having around like my needs,
and I remember her saying, well, isn't that really your responsibility? Like,
is it really fair to quote unquote put that on

(56:38):
other people? What do you say to folks who may
not be neurodivergent and how they can perhaps make space.

Speaker 3 (56:46):
There's so much in there. It's not oh my goodness,
asking for what you need. It's literally communication. You're not
putting anything on anyone, right, And I want to just
say self advocacy can also be super challenging for neurodivergent people.
Why because especially if you're late diagnosed, You've had a
whole lifetime of having your needs invalidated. A lot of

(57:09):
people don't even know what they need, so they're like,
I want to request accommodations at work, but I don't
even know what can help me. Yeah, because from a
very young age, you were told you're too sensitive, you're lazy,
stop overreacting, stop being crazy, you're just being stupid. And
actually there's a stat Psychiatrist William Dotson estimated that by

(57:30):
the age of twelve, young people with ADHD have already
received twenty thousand more negative messages than their peers from
adults in their life, parents, teachers twenty thousand more negative
messages by the age of twelve. So imagine the impact
that takes on self esteem. So then you feel like
you can't even trust yourself because it's like, well, I

(57:50):
feel like I need this, but then everyone around me
is telling me I'm overreacting, I'm being difficult, I'm being hostile.

Speaker 4 (57:56):
Whatever it is.

Speaker 3 (57:58):
So part of the journey after diagnosis is kind of
a homecoming back to yourself to learn what do I need?
What do I need to feel peaceful and joyful in
my body in this environment? And sometimes it's trial and error,
and then over time you can learn Okay, this is
what I need, and then learning how to communicate that.

Speaker 4 (58:20):
So that's what self advocacy is.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
It's essentially learning what you need and then how to
communicate it in a way that's effective.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
And so the folks who are receiving that information.

Speaker 3 (58:29):
Yes, to answer your actual question, yeah, So I think
that One of the things that I tell people is
if you're communicating with someone who's neurodivergent, don't minimize their experiences.
So don't say, oh, that's not real. Everyone has ADHD
these days. Well you don't look autistic, right, don't minimize
and listen and take their request seriously.

Speaker 4 (58:51):
Right, that's it.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Take each other seriously.

Speaker 4 (58:56):
And this is the thing.

Speaker 3 (58:57):
It's not special needs, it's human needs because every human
has strengths and areas where they need support. Everybody has
strengths and areas where they need support. And it's this
idea of interdependence, which is another principle of disability justice,
which is that we all need each other. And I
love your saying we are each other's business. When we

(59:18):
support each other, we lift each other up. I don't
know if I got that right. But we have to
care about the outcomes of each other's lives. And that's
what I was talking about with the neurodivergent friendship. Like
Eric and go read his book for people listening. We're
not broken, changing the autism conversation, caring about the well
being of other people in our lives. And if they're

(59:39):
asking for something, don't tell them you're being difficult or
your needs are too much.

Speaker 4 (59:44):
That's what they need.

Speaker 3 (59:45):
If they need to take a sensory break because the
van with eight people talking and on the roads is
over stimulating. Okay, let's take a break now we can
continue shooting again. And people have this misperception that accommodating
people with disabilities is difficult or expense siver complicated, but
it's usually nine times out of ten, it's easy. It's
things like just having a little bit of patience, kindness, respect.

Speaker 4 (01:00:08):
That's it.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
That's it. Well, thank you so much, Margot. This has
been incredible.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
I need to have you back to do a part
two because I know there's so much more to talk
about and this really is I know for a lot
of people, particularly my audience that has so many black women,
this has been a real like watershed time for the
possibility of neurodiversiens being within their lives and solving for

(01:00:36):
so many of the traumatic spaces that they've been in
and not solving necessarily, but like providing context for so
much of the traumas that they've received related to their
own behaviors that they didn't know the answers for. So
thank you so much. And where can people learn more
about the work that you do or be involved?

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
So if you want to learn more, you can check
out Minds of Allkinds dot com.

Speaker 4 (01:00:57):
I have a resource page with resources.

Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
On there, and I want people to know there are
resources out there to support you.

Speaker 4 (01:01:03):
So you're mentioning black women.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
There's amazing people like inger Shay Colsey, who's a therapist
who specializes specifically in working with black women who have ADHD.
There's ADHD Babes in the UK, which is pure support
groups specifically for black women and non binary.

Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
Folks who have ADHD.

Speaker 3 (01:01:20):
There's tons of resources out there, a lot of them
are listed on my website. So thanks for tuning in.
And I think that's it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:29):
I think that's it.

Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
I think that's it for now, because you know, we
could just keep.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
Talking we could keep going listen.

Speaker 1 (01:01:35):
If I didn't have another interview coming up, I would
be like park Tow, Well, thank you again and we
will have you back.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
And shout out to all my neurospicies out there.

Speaker 4 (01:01:44):
Yes, thank you, Amanda