May 14, 2025 • 51 mins
This week, we're joined by British journalist and documentary filmmaker Dr. Myriam François to talk about navigating the world as a white Muslim person, the limitations of inter-class allyship, and how the world perceives the current state of US politics.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Small dunces help from small, small human areas small.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
It's so funky. Welcome to Small Uses Podcast, y'all.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I have everybody doing I know that we are thriving
while trying to survive, and surviving while trying to thrive,
et cetera. This is the time that we're in. Our
guest today it's somebody who outwardly looks like a regular
old white girul with blond hair and blue eyes, and
she is everything but that we have, doctor Miriam Francois.
(00:40):
This continues my effort with this season of Small Doses
Podcast to expand our consciousness. I know that a lot
of my audience is people from the United States. I
know that a lot of my audience are black women.
That being said, we all need to expand our consciousness
(01:00):
and our intersectionality in literal, actual ways, and so I'm
trying my best to bring on people who are doing that,
who are demonstrating that, and who can also be new
resources for you all to do the same.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Miriam Fancois is Muslim. She is born in the UK.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
She came across my path as somebody who was very
outspoken on Palestine, and not just outspoken, but very knowledgeable
about the realities of not just the present but the
past and how we got here.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How did.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
He?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And this episode is called side effects of White Descent
because in speaking about that, you are actively, as a
white person, being a representative of descent from what is
expected of you, which is to continue to uphold white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And we know the Zionism is that which does that. Right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So, Miriam Fancois joining us is a big deal to
me because as she is somebody who is completely outside
of my normal scope and circle, but who has now
come into that scope and circle, and who I consider
to be a very important example of what it means
to be a co conspirator. Now, I know we got
(02:16):
a lot of white folks listening that may consider themselves allies.
How does that transform into a co conspirator? And why
would you want to be a co conspirator? Well, Mary
and Francois is going to help you understand that because
we are now moving into the real show. And what
I mean by that is that I think a lot
(02:37):
of us don't realize that up until this point, we've
been reading about things, We've been watching things, we've been
talking about things.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And that was dress rehearsal.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
That was us really just trying to get our footing
in understanding, and now that we're here, you need to
get your footing and courage and finding out where your
courage literally lives. I mean, I always quote Lady Macbeth
from Macbeth, screw your courage to the sticking point.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And we will not fail.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
She also says in that same play, ambition should be
made of sterner stuff. And what that means is that
a lot of us love to talk about what we want,
what we deserve, what the people should get, etc. But
we don't have the courage to put it all on
the line. And Miriam Francois is a demonstration of that
(03:21):
of someone with the courage to put it all on
the line and do so consistently. And what you come
to understand once you start putting it on the line,
as somebody who puts it on the line.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is that it never stops.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There's always a new phase of things to lose and
so much to gain in terms of at the very
least your own integrity. So please take a listen to doctor.
Sorry I've been calling her Maria, but so it's doctor
Miriam Francois. Let me give her her props or credits
or flowers, Doctor Miriam Francois as she joins us for
(03:54):
side effects of white Descent here on Small Doss's podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Welcome to Smart Doos's podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Doctor Miriam Francois, Who better to have reside effects of
white descent? Which, by the way, was her idea title, Like,
I'm not claiming that that was all doctor Miriam, Miriam,
what is the doctor it in?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I have a.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
PhD on Islamic political movements in North Africa, which is
essentially a PhD on so called Islamist movements. But what
they won't tell you about Islamist movements is that although
there is of course one small part of that that
is to do with things like al Qa'yeda and other
kind of violent militant groups, a whole portion of it
(04:51):
is essentially like postcolonial Islamic political thinkers considering how our
heritage as Muslims should inform the way that we think
about society, politics, international corporation.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So it was light.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
I only do light, Amanda, It's what I do. You know?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Next, can we talk about manicures.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And Caddy's Slippyes, it's what I do.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So whenever I feel like, whenever I come across a
person who happens to be white, because there's a difference
there's white.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
People and those people who happen to be white.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Okay, I always I am curious how the path was
forged into becoming a co conspirator, because see, you're not
an ally allies show up to the march. You're the
white lady who's like, we're having a march, and I'll
(05:47):
put it in my name so that if there's any issues,
they'll come to me.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Am I correct, Yes, yes, because I'm the person there
least likely to come to.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
And four, let's be honest, it only really makes sense
in all spaces of resistance that white people should always
be at the front of the line, just like historically
we put black and brown people at the front of
the line so that they would get shot first. I'm
just calling it historical rebalancing. Maybe, just like at the minimum.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
At a minimum, at a minimum, we're not saying you're
near its these kind of white people.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So my mom is My mom is Irish Catholic from Leetrom,
which is a rebel county in Ireland. My great grandfather
died as a militant in the ira so the Irish
Republican Armies. So he fought against the British occupation in
Ireland and was killed by the Black and Tan, who
were a poweramilitary group made up of criminals that the
(06:44):
UK had liberated from prisons in order to come and
terrorize Irish people and rape and pillage, and that's exactly
what they did. And those same troops, the Black and Tans,
were also sent to Palestine. So when you see Irish
people's solidarity with the Palestinian issue, it's both because many
Irish people would consider island to still be going through
(07:06):
an anti colonial struggle and an occupation by the Empire,
but also because there were very similar tactics and even
paramilitary groups used in both contexts. So on one hand
we have the Irish and on the other hand we
have the French, which is essentially, although deeply steeped in racism,
(07:27):
also a society where we don't take shit. If you
fuck with us, we burn cars. So you know, it's
what we do. It's what we do, So don't come
for us, because we will also come for you.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I mean the guillotine.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
When we were unhappy with inequality in our society. We
freed the prison of the best da and we went
to the Chateau Versailles and we decapitated our elites as
a warning to all those who seek to entrench and
maintain forms a political and economic inequality, and.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
That was the basis of the republic.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
We have strayed very far from that ideal today, but
as people we have still that history that motivates the
way that we think about the world for many people.
And so yeah, I think I have also the sort
of rebellious side that we have in France.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And then, of course I'm also Muslim, and I know
that this is.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Like, did you grow up Muslim?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
No, I didn't. I grew up Catholic.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
But I became Muslim when I was at university doing
my undergraduate degree at Cambridge I and I basically did
not feel like I fitted in at all, and I
made my alternative group of friends who were predominantly West
African Muslims, French speaking, and I learned about Islam through
(08:51):
their example and fell in love really with what we
call achlec in our faith, which is you can summarize
the whole of.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Islam through manners.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Manners and the people I met were of impeccable, impeccable manners.
You know, the people who you say, if the meeting
is at ten, there are like nine p fifty nine
at the door with a box of biscuits.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yes, By the way, if I impersonate you, I'm not mocking.
I'm mimicking. Okay, I get that bag, have it. But
it comes from love. It comes from love.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
I would never be offended, Amanda, you go, you go?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So there's like, well, actually wait, put a pin in that.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Yes, okay, So y'all.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I was supposed to do an interview with Miriam Francois,
first time we were supposed to meet, like on digital,
and the time zones got all mucked up and I
missed the interview.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I want you to know I lost sleep over.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I lost sleep over this because I pride myself on manners.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So I was like, God, damn it. And then Miriam was.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Like, we were counting on you, and I was like
it was est but I'm in esh my god.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
This was when we were doing the stream.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yes, I'm so comforted that we've come this far, because
I definitely have.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I was like, she's gonna un follow me.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
I mean, I'm sure you'd be devastated, but I would have.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Been, like the type of person I am, I would
have felt so I'm like, this is all your fault.
You didn't show up and everyone was waiting for you,
and oh my.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
God, listen, these things actually do happen with time zones.
And I didn't say it to make you feel bad.
But I did learn a lot from people who were
in so many ways like embodying what I considered to
be the highest values of our faith, which are like
not actually that complicated and pretty universal, like being contained,
(10:49):
being empathetic, being respectful, being loving, you know, being reliable,
but actually in a world where we don't necessarily have
many of us don't necessarily have like an internal compass
that helps sort of guide that frameworker values. I do
think that capitalism can take over and in bybuss with
far less beautifying values than those that faith in general,
(11:13):
I think encourages us to.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I just really feel like that gets lost in the
effort to continuously vilify Islam. It becomes about some whole
other thing. And by the way, in the same way
there's an effort to purify Christianity while using it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
To commit incredible.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Acts of violence over centuries, weaponizing it beyond belief.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Can I just say that right now, between like bin
Laden were he alive and your current government, it's the same.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I mean, yeah, I don't know the pattention.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I mean, it's really like they learnt and said, okay,
we know how to mimic this. I mean, that's essentially
what's going on. And I mean the Nazis learned from
our government. So there's quite a bit of foolery and
terror going on for sure. So I was welcomed into
(12:19):
your orbit post October seventh when the algorithm started creating
a silo of those of us who are who have
like a heart and we're speaking about Palestine in like
very loud ways, and I was, of course like, who
is this white lady?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Who is this British lady? And then she's I'm learning
so much.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And every time I was seeing I mean, aside from
your own personal videos, I would see you as a
pundit on a lot of these programs, and it was
so important that you were on these particular programs because
whenever I would see Palestinian folks on these programs, the
immediate dismissal. It was very much like, Okay, we're having
(13:06):
you on here just because it's the top of the
town right now, but like we don't really care what
you ever say. And also the egregiousness of these completely
daft newscasters trying to undermine with someone who's not only
experienced this but who's typically a scholar, like they would
have Palasinian scholars on and still be trying to undermine
them was just maddening. So I see someone like you
(13:28):
in these spaces and it was such a very like
committed effort to white descent, and how did you even
get into this realm of being that outward? Because it's
one thing to be a scholar, it's another thing to
be a speaker.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So I mean, I guess I obviously have a TV
career that you know, obviously long predates the last year,
primarily working in documentary films and presenting documentary films. My
first film actually for the BBC was presenting a documentary
on the genocide at sure Bernitza, which I had to
study genocide and the stages of genocide and what goes
(14:04):
into creating a genocide, including you know, things like dehumanizing
people that you were neighbours to for generations, so that
from one day to the next, not quite but literally
over a matter of months, a father from one household
can go to the household next door and shoot the
entire family dead.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
I mean, these are real stories that happened in Bosnia.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
And when you start to study the ways in which
communities were broken down, communities where people didn't even really
distinguish each other along those ethnic or religious lines previously,
and the ways in which those were instrumentalized by different
political parties to try to create these divisions and convince
people that they were enemies with people that they'd lived
(14:44):
in peace with for generations and often intermarried with. That
was something that I found not just sobering, but really
worrying because I observed many of those layers of dehumanization
happening here in Europe when it comes particularly to the
Muslim communit, but it also occurs when you're talking about refugees,
asylum seekers and people of color in general. You know,
(15:06):
it's just a kind of part of the wider picture.
But when it comes specifically to Muslims, you know, obviously
it being my community, I'm observing this genocide which happened
literally in Europe, you know, on our doorstep. And I'm
thinking to myself, hold on, not only am I learning
about this as an adult and I didn't really know
about it. I didn't know about a genocide within Europe
(15:26):
apart from the Holocaust, like that's the only one I
knew about. And then I'm like, it's a genocide of
Muslims at a time where we're seeing increasing Islamophobia, where
like friends of mine don't want to leave the house
unless they're with someone because they're scared of being attacked.
We literally had riots here in the summer in the
UK where black and brown people were being attacked in parks,
like just walking through a park, people coming at them.
(15:48):
They were trying to burn down mosques, hotels with asylum seekers. So,
you know, I obviously had a TV presence where I
had the very fortunate position of being able to tell
stories that I cared about, not always, but when I
had the chance of getting a story commissioned, because lots
of stories I care about did not get commissioned. And
then of course as time went on, there'd be things
(16:10):
that would pop up that I felt that I should
speak out on. So I've spoken out with regards to
Isamophobia for decades now, like most of my adult life,
and I think obviously, when this issue was back in
the news over the last year, I'm like, you know,
I have lived in Palestine, I speak Arabic, I have
studied the millions.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I've taught this course at Oxford.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I think maybe I just maybe have something I could
but maybe not.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
I don't maybe take it or leave it.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Most people left it and occasionally I got handed the mic,
and on occasion those moments were able to land. But
you know, definitely the whiteness is a big part of
that story. As you say, you know, Palestinians not only
say exactly what I'm saying and far better than I do,
but they unfortunately do not benefit from one of the
(17:00):
key facets of whiteness, which is the semblance of normality, respectability,
and trustworthiness. You know, and you also have to know, Amanda,
that I went through my own kind of experience with
whiteness where I wore hisherb. I wore a head scarf
for like over ten years most of my adult life
I was wearing a head scarf. And when I began
wearing a head scarf, I stepped through the looking glass
(17:21):
because I literally became a person of color. In white
people's views, I was no longer white, I was no
longer white. I would get racially abused.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I know this is going to sound strange because you're
looking at me now and you're like, people are.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Racially abusing this white woman. I was being called a
sand jockey. The N word would come up, the key
word would come up. I am not even joking, yes,
because when white people overwhelmingly look at a person in
jjab in a head scarf, they don't see themselves.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
And so, of course whiteness is about protecting privilege, right,
So anything that takes you out and puts you in
the category of other, which obviously your muslimness.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Does, you get flipped over the other side of the
fence and suddenly you're looking over from the other side
of the fence like say what, like.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
What, yea, I'm not on this side anymore. And it's
literally cloth, It's a piece of class.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It's literally a piece of cloth. It's literally a piece
of cloth. And that was the difference between me being
followed around a store. It was a difference between me
being abused physically and verbally in the street about me
being denied access to certain restaurants or cafes in France
and French being told that this was not my place,
(18:33):
this is not my city. You don't belong here, You're
not welcome here. Half the time, honestly, I felt like
removing it and be like, really, I.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Don't belong here. You're gonna tell me I didn't belong here.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Let's talk, which would sound even better in French, because
here is sad in French.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Is everything sounds head French.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
But the hilarious thing, and this is the bit that
people don't realize, is that my muslimness is what stopped
me in many cases from losing my call, because it
taught me such a high level of trying to be
respectful and always upholding the highest image of our faith,
which is to not speak derogatively to other people, even
if they're insulting.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
You, you know, And it taught me a lot of
self restraint. But inside I was dying.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I was like, honestly, because I'm not naturally inclined that way,
fair same, I'm just not. So it takes a lot
of work for me to kind of implement that. And
then of course The crazy thing is, obviously I take
off the hijab a few years later, not for any
bad reasons.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Still love the hijab. Maybe one day I'll be worthy
of wearing it again.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
But I then step back through the other side, where
I've now been like pushed out into the black and
brown people camp for like a good ten years, and
then Naya take it off, and I'm back in the
white camp, and I'm like, who are you?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What the bread?
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Where am I? Why am I here with you?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
And of course the big one is you suddenly are
privy to a lot of things that people would never
say in a room where they knew that black and
brown people were present, and would never say in front
of me.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
If I was wearing a hitjhab about.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Muslims, especially obviously, I would hear stuff about Muslims that.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
They would assume that me looking the way I do
that I'd be like.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, of course, we don't want those people over here.
I'd be like, sorry, what what did you just say?
Did you just say you don't want Muslims in the country. Yeah,
I'm muslim sir.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
No.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Then you can hear the record screen and you're like, oh,
I didn't mean you, and I'm like, no, you didn't
mean you absolutely meant me. And the best part, of
course of that conversation is when they say, no.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
No, I didn't mean you.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I meant you, know the ones who wear the stuff,
And I'm like, that's me.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I am her. You're talking to her. You want to talk,
let's talk. I'm all for talking. I love to talk, Amanda.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I just I feel like that is so that's a
very unique experience, like you know that.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Right, Yes, yes I do.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And I also want to caveat that by saying that
even though I wore hijab for obviously most of my
adult life and that I was treated by white people
as not white, I don't want to compare that to
the experience of a black or brown person who wears
jab because I have no idea what that experience is like, right,
probably that on steroids. So all I can really comment
(21:21):
on is what I lived through, which was definitely them
putting me in the like so what are you you
like half Algerian or are you Bosnian? Is your dad Pakistani?
Speaker 4 (21:31):
And I'm just like.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Just French and Eilish that's.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
The one, so yes, yeah, of course, and it shaped
me profoundly, And of course, my community shapes me profoundly
in that the majority of the people around me are
not white, and I feel very blessed for that.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So I can't remember if we were saying this off
the air or on the air, but where do you
feel like white descent needs to be directed at present?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Because let me tell you something here in the United States.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I'm always reminding white people in the United States, you know,
this is yourmestic clean up. Absolutely, so I would love
to hear your thoughts, you know, in general.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I mean, I guess the real conundrum for the majority
of people who are racialized as white is the fact,
first and foremost is you and I both know they
don't understand.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Their selves as white, right.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Whiteness is neutrality, and that's why people get offended if
you say you're white. That's why peers los his shit
when I'm like, you know, you're a white man like
But I wasn't actually referring to his skin tone, right,
I mean, he could have been black.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
I would have told him he was a white man
like I. It was what he was saying that was very,
very white.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
And supportive of white structures of oppression and that's kind
of the key point here, right, But the point is
if you have never really internalized the meaning of your
racial identity in a given context where race matters, you
cannot begin to fix the problem. And so the difference
between people of color and white people is that people
of color don't get a choice in understanding the meaning
(23:06):
that is attributed to your racial identity. Albeit constructed, we
can move through the world as if we are neutral,
as if we don't have racial identity color blind. And so,
you know, if anyone's watching this and they don't know
what I'm talking about, and they're thinking, what is she
on about? I could only really recommend Bell Hooks's Whiteness
and Black Imagination, which is an essay in which she
(23:28):
really just describes how black communities felt when white people
would enter majority black spaces. And I do think it's
important to understand that perception because the words that came
up the most things like terrorizing, frightening, violent, sadistic. I mean,
sometimes that's the mirror we have to look into to
(23:49):
understand the damage that's been done. And I don't think
it's really possible to begin to fix it until we
really do see ourselves for what we've contributed to constructing
and then of the how. The challenge, of course, is
that the deconstruction cannot really be led by white people
in my humble opinion, and that's because we have blind
spots in this game. I have blind spots in this game.
(24:10):
I say this all the time. I'm like, I can
read all the books. My friends will walk into a
room and they have sensed it before I've even like
done all the book work to understand it.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
You know what I mean, right?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
You just you felt it, you knew it in your bones,
and I had to like read to get It's not
the same.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
It's not the same.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I was walking with my next door neighbor once and
these three like fifty, like boomer boomer age white women
started walking in front of us in the clan and
they're like, you see what I just said in a clan.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
In a gaggle.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
And I said to her, I said, you know when
I see that, that's danger to me, right, And she.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Was like, wh yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
She's Persian, but she in La looks white, right, And
I said, because that represents Karen's that represents women who
weaponiz their whiteness. I've seen women like this in this
formation on so many occasions, just causing harm. Yeah, And
she was like, I just can't imagine. And I was like, well,
(25:13):
now you can because I told you. But she hasn't
thought about that.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
No, And she's also probably not got the same history.
You know, obviously Iran, for all the attempts to colonize,
it was not colonized. You know, that does make a
difference to people's self perception and experience of whiteness.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
You have to recognize that.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Obviously, African Americans, you know, you're obviously coming from the
descendants of colonized people who are then enslaved and then
put through hundreds of years of slavery. I mean, it's
incomparable to people who grew up being aware of the
threat of Western imperialism but not necessarily having to experience
living under its day to day violence. And I think
(25:54):
that is obviously what the African American experience is and
why it's soch an important experience to understand liberation movements
from within the empire, because no one understands liberation from
within the empire better than the people who are tied
to liberation movements at home but have been then brought
over and have to then liberate themselves within the sense
(26:17):
of empire. You guys have been doing it for hundreds
of years. There's a lot to learn. There's a lot
to learn. So I think on that that's kind of
why we're saying white people can't take the lead on this.
You can't trust us. You cannot trust us, you cannot
trust us to lead the movement and manner.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
However, it's a sad reality. We're never going to fully
get it.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
We're never going to see everything, we're never going to
understand it all perfectly. And just like class consciousness works,
where even when you think you're allied with the working class,
the minute you are living in your lux pad, you
care more about people breaking into your lux pad than
why they are breaking into the lux pad.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
This is another conversation I had with my neighbor because
there was all these like flash thefts happening at the
malls in LA and she was just like, I don't
know why this is happening, And I was like really,
and she was like, I mean, it's just so ridiculous
that they're doing this. And I was like, I think
(27:18):
you're missing the fact that it's so ridiculous that they
would need to do this. This isn't happening worldwide, okay,
Like this is happening in specific places where there are
specific systemic issues that are not being dealt with. And
she was just like, I mean, she understood it by
the end of it. But it's like that thought process
(27:40):
is so far removed for a lot of folks. And
when I hear you speak, I'm like, I wonder if
those people who may not have heard it when I
said it are hearing it when you said it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Have you gotten any of that experience.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
By and Lodge?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
You know, I mean, this is going to betray my
political leanings, but I think your class consciousness does massively
blinker you to the issues affecting people outside of your
class identity. And one of the benefits of being middle
class but then being broke is that you, without going
into my personal circumstances in too much depth, you have
(28:17):
the humbling experience of living alongside people who have problems
you never thought you'd have, and suddenly their problems are
now your problems. And I'm actually super grateful for that.
I'm super grateful that I am in a situation where
many of the issues that I cared about theoretically, when
I was more comfortable, became much realer to me in
(28:40):
a way that now they're part of my DNA fight,
you know what I mean. I'm like, there's no version
of the story where like housing, education, healthcare are not
going to be top of my priority for everyone, because,
I mean, here's the secret. Capitalism doesn't want you to
know you have more chance of becoming homeless than I'm
(29:00):
being a millionaire.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Do it?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
I know, I know, I know, I know Instagram is
telling us the opposite of this, But really, when Michael
said they don't really care about us, he was bang on.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Can you also, please anyone watching this go back and
watch Michael's videos. Last night we did a little Michael binge.
I was like, Michael's out here in the favelas of Brazil.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yes, yes, jamming, that was I in the favelas.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah, he gave center stage. I can't even remember what
the video it was now.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
He gave center stage in that video to the drummers,
to the local people.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
He did not center Michael in here all the world.
He's not even in the videos.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
He's not in the video.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Tell me today, who who is doing it? Who is
doing a Michael today, who is putting out bangers on
that level and not centering themselves in the music. Who
today could put out a video that is going to
be heard everywhere in the world.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
And only have in the video? How do we put this?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
He was out here spreading the good propaganda, yes, the
good travel.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
He really was.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
And I just, you know, I love a little Drake
diss by Kendrick the super Bowl, but I still, you know,
was still in like rappers and rappers and my ego
and your ego, and you know.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I think that he did both. So I'll give
him perhaps for that.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
He did do both.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
And I really did like the super Bowl show for
the fact that I felt that he in the imagery
of what was coming up for me.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
It felt very militant, but in the right like.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
We need We have never needed people to form rank
and get into shape. We need that more than ever before.
And I felt it watching it. I was like, this
is a call.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So I felt, Yeah, I was annoyed when I saw
people like this is not revolutionary shit up Ah.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I think I just does a part of me that
finds the Drake diss thing.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
So here's the thing about the Drake thing. It actually
goes along with white descent.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Okay, go on, because Drake's.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Mother is a white Jewish woman. Yes, and Drake does
play both sides. When he feels so fit, he's a gangster.
He's saying nigga, he's with the blacks, and then he's
in the turtleneck and he's presenting himself like he's a
mob boss and he's with the whites in the offices,
et cetera, et cetera, being this really you know, upstanding
(31:41):
guy and like talking like this right. And so when
he's doing this dance back and forth, you know, someone
like Kendrick is like, well, I don't get to do
that dance back and forth. And also like, Drake is
a cornball. And I can say that as somebody who's
met Drake and interacted with Drake, like he's just a
corny phony dude.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I've never understood it. I know I'm in a minority,
I it.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, I mean he like lies about his security guard
being killed to like make up for standing you up.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Like it's really ridiculous. But the thing about it is that, yeah,
that's a true story. He could use that to actually
be in defense of and.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
In the co conspirator position and the white descent lane,
but he doesn't for sure.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
No, Instead, he's suing Kendrick for calling him a colonizer.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
When he said the phrase, Kendrick is rapping like he's
trying to free the slaves.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yes, all bets are off.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
I mean, on top of which I felt like accurate.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
No, that's why he was saying it like a disc Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
But you know you're listening to it and you're like,
and the next line is and.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So I will join you?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Yes, hey, No, yes, accurate.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I mean, isn't that the goal isn't liberat Like I
guess maybe I'm just you know, all off in my
head a bit too much with the liberation stuff. But like,
to me, the whole goal is liberation. Everything that we're
involved in is liberation because the system we're in is
about enslaving.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
But they don't believe that.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
They don't even understand that because he benefits and I
tell you.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
These people make so much money.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, that liberation Like for them, they think liberation is
the freedom to harm anyone without punishment.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Indeed, freedom is indeed the freedom to do harm and
to never be accounted for it. I mean, I get it,
but I I grew up listening to you know, before
I ever traveled to America, the only way I knew
of America was I just used to listen to hip hop.
And at that time, I'm listening to like Dead Prayers,
I'm listening to n WA.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
Yes, I know you're laughing at me.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Now those are also very specific choices, right, I mean.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I listened to a range, but like Dead Prayers for sure,
you know, took me down a rabbit hole.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
And I was like, oh, damn, way right right, right,
really happened? Who's who? Hold a wait? Work who? Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
And so I learned about another side of American history
from hip hop. And then obviously when people try and
invite you to the land of the Free and the
brave and you're like, no, I've lied.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Yeah, I know, I know this isn't the one.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
But I'm only saying that because I felt that there
was such a powerful moral critique of capitalism, of oppressive systems,
attempts to create cross liberation, corporation and alliances. And now
today I look and I'm like, oh, capitalism just did
really ruin everything.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Isn't it wild?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's so pervasive, And I know that for someone like
myself who grew up in American schools, the concept of
capitalism was never mentioned.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
It was never mentioned.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I mean it was I want to say, maybe just
as like an aside.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
Yeah, I took.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Government in economics as a senior in high school, and
I had to take economics to graduate college, and the
concept of capitalism was very simply presented as like a
system of finance. That's literally how it was presented, Like, yeah,
we have a capitalist society, which means we have businesses
and we can pay for things.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And I will tell you that it wasn't until like honestly,
maybe the last three years that I began to really
understand capitalism as a weaponized force against the people, because
I had not connected that to slavery, to women's bodily harm,
to all the things.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And it is connected to all the things.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
But like you said, you.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Keep digging, you keep digging, you keep digging, and then
when you get to.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
The root, you're like, oh, money is the root of
all evil?
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, well, I mean certainly in the film that we're
commonly in, you know, like I think that the fact
that we do not teach people accurately about why we
have the wealth that we do in the countries that
we're in and people don't have that wealth in other countries,
and the connections between history and colonial extraction and ongoing
(36:03):
forms of neo colonial extraction frankly means that we are
setting people up to very deliberately misunderstand what system we're
operating in and therefore confusing people as to what the
solutions are, because then you might be looking at remedial
solutions if you believe the systems are inherently fair, which
is what we taught about capitalism. Oh, the markets just
(36:24):
naturally balance themselves out. Well, hold on, didn't Trump just
announce tariffs on like most of your neighbors. I mean,
tariffs has traditionally thought of as like a protectionist measure
that we find in more like socialist states. And in fact,
if you're a country in the Global South, you don't
even get to put any tariffs because essentially you were
given a loan and in exchange for that, you had
to accept that your markets would be flooded with goods
(36:45):
from wealthier countries, which will also ensure that you remain
in debt, probably in purenity.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
So I mean, look, I find that, as usual.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
The more you dig, the more you learn, the more
you realize there's more to learn. But you also see
connections between the differences tom of oppression and you will
so through that start to understand the common focus of anger, anger,
righteous anger.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Righteous anger. So when I watch you on these shows,
that's what I feel like. I'm watching, like I'm watching
really refined rage. And I mean when you pull the
ponytail back, that's when I know.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I'm like, so, she's coming for them today. She's got
the ponytail in. They don't even know what's coming.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
You know, when I stick it back, When I stick
it back, I'm ready for wool.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
I really do feel like, you know, you've put the
vaseline on your face and you're like, we're.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Gonna fight, We're gonna scrap.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
When you're in these spaces, Yeah, talk to me about
how you feel like you have shown up in white descent.
Like I can tell you my audience probably hasn't seen
some of these. So like, if you want to give
you some of your greatest heads, please.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Well, I guess look, you know probably the video that
you may have come across me. First, which went viral
earlier this year, was the Sky News interview that I
did with the Alder Hakim. It was her first show
and we were talking about a number of things, but
of course one of the questions that got put to
me was the idea that we should have put measures,
we should have taken action against who these far earlier,
(38:21):
and we should have brought in sanctions and all the
rest of it. And I'm just listening to this in
the midst of a genocide, just like you fuckers, for real,
this is the con like children are having their limbs
amputated without anesthetic and you want to talk to me
about trying to stop one of the only groups that
basically is doing what we are required to do as
(38:41):
signatures of the Genocide Convention, which is to use all
means necessary to stop the genocide. We are signatureies here
in the UK. You guys are not in the US.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
But we are here in the UKA.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
We are here in the UK signatures of the Genocide Convention,
and it literally says that we have to do everything
to stop genocide by all means possible. And so you
want to have a discussion about like you know, why
are these people blocking these trade routes? And of course
that's where the line that kind of turned me into
a meme about you know, I'm so sorry that your
(39:11):
Amazon packages are delayed, but you know, genocide. Yeah, just
that little detail, and I think you know what resonated
in that moment was obviously the reality or the starkness
may be, of the gulf between what we were experiencing
of the genocide, which was the inconvenience of our packages
being delayed, and the reality of that genocide for the
(39:34):
people who were living through it. So you know, that
certainly was one of them. And I could obviously tell
from the gentleman who was opposite me, who is you know,
one of these men who's you know, at Davos and
all these very important places. Yes, he was just looking
at me with this kind of bemused look, and I
the only thing I could think of was no, I'm maybe.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Not verbalizing, but.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
I'll put it bluntly and just say, yeah, don't you
don't know me. We have not met, And I understand
that the parameters of this discussion requires us to maintain
this front of civility.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
But I'm gonna wait for you outside.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Ah, yeah, well that brings us. Yeah, we're about to
go to our special Patreon segments, So come on over
to the Patreon because doctor Miriam Francois has had the
unfortunate experience of spending more time than I would ever
want to with Pierce Morgan, and I would love to
(40:37):
get your thoughts on Pierce Morgan during our Patreon only segment.
So come on over Seal Squad and join us as
we keep it very very very real, doctor Francois, in
(40:59):
your opinion, and as someone who is not from the
United States, what do you see from the outside as
a way that Americans are not showing up in being
white dissenters.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
I mean, I don't know America beyond the way that
I absorb American culture externally. You know, I'm coming to
the US in a few days, and it'll be the
first time I'm back in the US since well apart
from like a brief holiday.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
But I was this is perfect.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
This is perfect because Americans have no idea how we're
viewed by the outside world.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Okay, So I mean we're looking at it thinking like
civil wars pending that the white supremacists are back in
the White House, that you basically have got people in
power now who are beholden to extremist ideologies and that
are not guided by evidence or rationale, and who are
also then allied with big tech companies that have huge
(42:00):
amounts of control over many aspects of our lives.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
And so that kind of combination of.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Elements makes not just the resistance harder because obviously the
spaces in which we dissent have increasingly come online, and
these people have control and insight into all of that information.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
But I think we've also just become so siloed.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
That at the start of this we were talking about
kind of the echo chambers of our algorithms, Like, I
don't know how the White America that buyers into the
Trump narrative is brought round to see the world differently
without engaging them, and we don't even engage them online
(42:42):
as in these companies don't even engage them online. Yes,
because I'm not saying that we necessarily should always be seeing,
let's say, in our silos, their content, but I think
that I try and deliberately actually watch content from people
that I disagree with to understand where they're coming from,
because sometimes you might not agree with the form of
(43:05):
the argument, but you might understand why they're arguing. And
I think that that's even lost.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
It's like, I just dislike you, you know, this polarization
that we have, and so yeah, I mean, I guess
I'm fearful for you guys, and I'm traveling to the US.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I feel a bit more anxious this time than I've
ever felt before about traveling to the US because also, Amanda,
obviously I present as white, and I don't want to
be with the white people. I don't want to be with.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
The white people infiltrate. I'm just saying.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
I'm just saying, I end up in sing we call
it this book by the door.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
You gotta be the white by the door.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
I mean, look, I lived in the States. The racial
dynamics in America are very specific.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
It is, and part of it, though is and I
really do believe this, like it's specific to the people
who want it to be. But for so many folks,
the racial dynamics in the United States for so long
were really just.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Like black and white.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yes, but it is much more than that these days,
and not just in the coastal communities.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I remember going to Iowa in nineteen ninety nine. Do
you know where Iowa's south? You don't need to Iowa
is in the Midwest.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
It's like when people talk about like the whitest of
white people in America, they'll usually reference Iowa or Idaho
because it's just like.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Yes, I you feel like, no, I've had it used
in that way. I've had it used in that way.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yes, yes, it's like real, like we're the salt of
the earth, whites of America. And I remember I went
out to Iowa for a scholarship competition. And by the way,
when the person picked us up, like us winners at
the airport, he opened the door to the minivan and said, wow,
y'all the first colors I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
So let's start there.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Oh god wow.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So we get in the car and we're like great
and that we drive like two hours into the depths
of Iowa, and the person who met us, who's like
our chaperone, she's like, yeah, taking us through main street
in the town, she's like, we've had a rash of Mexicans.
But dad, da da da, a rash of Mexicans. I've
(45:18):
never forgotten it till this day.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
What does that even mean?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
We've had a lot of Mexicans.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
But guess what the Mexicans had built the Chinese restaurant.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
They had a Mexican restaurant, they had a.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Store, And it was like, even though these people have
come and improved your community.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
Yeah, okay, you're enjoying that Mexican food.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
You still are referring to them in a derogatory manner. However,
what that also said to me, though, was it's not
just white and black anymore. Where I live in New York,
It's not just Mexican. It's like El Salvadorians, Nicaraguans, Guatemalans, Dominicans,
Puerto Ricans, Like, this is a different world than I
(45:59):
think those whites that are in charge now are aware of. Yeah,
they're also I don't think, counting on people like you
that exist here in the United States, and they do.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
We have a term that was in the UK and
the eighties in the anti racism movement, we understood blackness
as political blackness, and political blackness was an outlook that
was adopted by many people of different backgrounds who were
considered to be outside of whiteness. But also as a
white person, you could say I identify with political blackness,
(46:32):
and I think it's a little sad actually that we've
lost the notion of black power as a political orientation
that if you understand, it is just about liberations starting
from the grassroots up.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
It's a very simple recipe essentially for liberation. It start
with the people who have the greatest intersection of oppression
and learn from that the problems that are inherent to
the way our society you're structured, and once you start
addressing the issues they're facing, then essentially you are fixing
(47:06):
society as a whole. So it's like that beautiful thing
that actually by helping the most vulnerable, you're helping yourself,
you know. It's that interconnectedness that religion also teaches you
that you should want for your brother what you want
for yourself. But it's not just out of like the
idea of you want them to have the same as you.
It's also whatever you wish for them, you are also
wishing for yourself. Whatever you create as a benchmark for others,
(47:30):
you're also determining could be a benchmark for you. That
you're saying that we don't allow anyone to slip through
those cracks, and that's a solidarity that I think, you know,
obviously from a faith perspective, transcends obviously the kind of
racial divides that have been created and cemented within our society.
Even though, and I have to obviously caveat this, we
still find huge forms of racism within the Muslim community,
(47:54):
and we also find Islamophobia within the Black community. So
everyone still has work to do.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
The last.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
And that's a perfect way to wrap it up.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
We're on a journey.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Everyone still has work to do. Thank you so much.
I'm so glad that this happened.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Yeah, it was my pleasure. Honestly, I love you. I
love your voice, I love everything you do. You're such
an incredible powerhouse in everything. Like every space you show
up in you brighten the screen. Like I said, I mean,
I thought you were. You know, I'm not gonna we
won't get into the insecure craze, but I thought you
were so brilliant in that, and I you know, I
(48:41):
hope to see you in many, many more series to come.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
You are, you know, an asset to every production we
have seen you in.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
I hate doing productions well there are you You know
what it is. It's just that I despise inefficiency, and
the Hollywood the way of doing productions actually lives off
of inefficiency to feed it. So yeah, you would think, oh, well,
they don't want to spend money, so this should be efficient. No,
(49:12):
it's really backwards, like why are we doing sixteen hour
days to shoot a TV show? This doesn't make any sense, like, oh, yeah, no,
we are not saving lives to the point where we
need to be here for sixteen hours. Yeah, get your
shots together so we can get in here and get out.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
But that's another episode for another time.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
But you will be seeing you will be seeing other works.
I have my one woman show that I've been working
on that I've been producing, and then my book by
the Way, when Through the BS comes out in October wonderful.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
So UK, you know what, I don't have any contacts
in the UK.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
Well we cant you in touch? Yeah for sure, because.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
I have fans, I have like a base in the UK,
and I've just never been able to get over there.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
Yeah no, no, for sure you do. And there's a
big comedy circuit here, you know. So I don't think
that should be an issue at all. Well we'll make
some connect all right.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
In it let's do.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Thank you so much, doctionary and francois my man, it
is my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Where can they get more of you? How where can
they follow you?
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Oh? Please follow me on Instagram at mis fossoir, which
is m y z f R A n C. I s.
I am gradually weaning myself off Twitter, but I am
still on this still on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
I know, I know, I left so long ago. I
love when it got mean. By the way, y'all, for
the Americans, Z is Z the letter Z.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
Yes, right, thank you for the translation. The X is
a horrific place.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
And now if you criticize Elon on X, which I
regularly do just for the kicks, you lose one thousand
followers each time. Yeah, you just could do it as
a chest you just fuck it on loose follows. Yeah,
but we should still be saying fuck Elon all over
that platform.
Speaker 4 (50:57):
Yes, but noted. Yes, And I'm not alone to have
made this test and verified it, so it's a real thing.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
It's a real thing. Well, there you go, y'all.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
If you're still over there in Twitter Land, because it
will always be Twitter to me.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
If you're still over there.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Then obviously come off and actually, yeah, more to the point,
follow me on YouTube, which is where I have my
show called The Tea with Miriam Frosua, where we basically
drop the gems by bringing on guests that kind of
help you understand the story behind the stories, because we
all know there's like the story which I now call
the charade, but there's also the story behind the stories,
(51:32):
and we dig into the stories behind the stories.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
There, y'all go make sure you check it out.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
Thank you so much, Thanks Amanda,
Small dunces help from small, small human areas small.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
It's so funky. Welcome to Small Uses Podcast, y'all.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
I have everybody doing I know that we are thriving
while trying to survive, and surviving while trying to thrive,
et cetera. This is the time that we're in. Our
guest today it's somebody who outwardly looks like a regular
old white girul with blond hair and blue eyes, and
she is everything but that we have, doctor Miriam Francois.
(00:40):
This continues my effort with this season of Small Doses
Podcast to expand our consciousness. I know that a lot
of my audience is people from the United States. I
know that a lot of my audience are black women.
That being said, we all need to expand our consciousness
(01:00):
and our intersectionality in literal, actual ways, and so I'm
trying my best to bring on people who are doing that,
who are demonstrating that, and who can also be new
resources for you all to do the same.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Miriam Fancois is Muslim. She is born in the UK.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
She came across my path as somebody who was very
outspoken on Palestine, and not just outspoken, but very knowledgeable
about the realities of not just the present but the
past and how we got here.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How did.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
He?
Speaker 1 (01:37):
And this episode is called side effects of White Descent
because in speaking about that, you are actively, as a
white person, being a representative of descent from what is
expected of you, which is to continue to uphold white supremacy.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
And we know the Zionism is that which does that. Right.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
So, Miriam Fancois joining us is a big deal to
me because as she is somebody who is completely outside
of my normal scope and circle, but who has now
come into that scope and circle, and who I consider
to be a very important example of what it means
to be a co conspirator. Now, I know we got
(02:16):
a lot of white folks listening that may consider themselves allies.
How does that transform into a co conspirator? And why
would you want to be a co conspirator? Well, Mary
and Francois is going to help you understand that because
we are now moving into the real show. And what
I mean by that is that I think a lot
(02:37):
of us don't realize that up until this point, we've
been reading about things, We've been watching things, we've been
talking about things.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
And that was dress rehearsal.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
That was us really just trying to get our footing
in understanding, and now that we're here, you need to
get your footing and courage and finding out where your
courage literally lives. I mean, I always quote Lady Macbeth
from Macbeth, screw your courage to the sticking point.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
And we will not fail.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
She also says in that same play, ambition should be
made of sterner stuff. And what that means is that
a lot of us love to talk about what we want,
what we deserve, what the people should get, etc. But
we don't have the courage to put it all on
the line. And Miriam Francois is a demonstration of that
(03:21):
of someone with the courage to put it all on
the line and do so consistently. And what you come
to understand once you start putting it on the line,
as somebody who puts it on the line.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Is that it never stops.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
There's always a new phase of things to lose and
so much to gain in terms of at the very
least your own integrity. So please take a listen to doctor.
Sorry I've been calling her Maria, but so it's doctor
Miriam Francois. Let me give her her props or credits
or flowers, Doctor Miriam Francois as she joins us for
(03:54):
side effects of white Descent here on Small Doss's podcast.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Welcome to Smart Doos's podcast.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Doctor Miriam Francois, Who better to have reside effects of
white descent? Which, by the way, was her idea title, Like,
I'm not claiming that that was all doctor Miriam, Miriam,
what is the doctor it in?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I have a.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
PhD on Islamic political movements in North Africa, which is
essentially a PhD on so called Islamist movements. But what
they won't tell you about Islamist movements is that although
there is of course one small part of that that
is to do with things like al Qa'yeda and other
kind of violent militant groups, a whole portion of it
(04:51):
is essentially like postcolonial Islamic political thinkers considering how our
heritage as Muslims should inform the way that we think
about society, politics, international corporation.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So it was light.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
I only do light, Amanda, It's what I do. You know?
Speaker 3 (05:09):
Next, can we talk about manicures.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
And Caddy's Slippyes, it's what I do.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So whenever I feel like, whenever I come across a
person who happens to be white, because there's a difference
there's white.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
People and those people who happen to be white.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Okay, I always I am curious how the path was
forged into becoming a co conspirator, because see, you're not
an ally allies show up to the march. You're the
white lady who's like, we're having a march, and I'll
(05:47):
put it in my name so that if there's any issues,
they'll come to me.
Speaker 5 (05:52):
Am I correct, Yes, yes, because I'm the person there
least likely to come to.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
And four, let's be honest, it only really makes sense
in all spaces of resistance that white people should always
be at the front of the line, just like historically
we put black and brown people at the front of
the line so that they would get shot first. I'm
just calling it historical rebalancing. Maybe, just like at the minimum.
Speaker 2 (06:17):
At a minimum, at a minimum, we're not saying you're
near its these kind of white people.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
So my mom is My mom is Irish Catholic from Leetrom,
which is a rebel county in Ireland. My great grandfather
died as a militant in the ira so the Irish
Republican Armies. So he fought against the British occupation in
Ireland and was killed by the Black and Tan, who
were a poweramilitary group made up of criminals that the
(06:44):
UK had liberated from prisons in order to come and
terrorize Irish people and rape and pillage, and that's exactly
what they did. And those same troops, the Black and Tans,
were also sent to Palestine. So when you see Irish
people's solidarity with the Palestinian issue, it's both because many
Irish people would consider island to still be going through
(07:06):
an anti colonial struggle and an occupation by the Empire,
but also because there were very similar tactics and even
paramilitary groups used in both contexts. So on one hand
we have the Irish and on the other hand we
have the French, which is essentially, although deeply steeped in racism,
(07:27):
also a society where we don't take shit. If you
fuck with us, we burn cars. So you know, it's
what we do. It's what we do, So don't come
for us, because we will also come for you.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
Yeah, I mean the guillotine.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
Listen.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
When we were unhappy with inequality in our society. We
freed the prison of the best da and we went
to the Chateau Versailles and we decapitated our elites as
a warning to all those who seek to entrench and
maintain forms a political and economic inequality, and.
Speaker 4 (08:03):
That was the basis of the republic.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
We have strayed very far from that ideal today, but
as people we have still that history that motivates the
way that we think about the world for many people.
And so yeah, I think I have also the sort
of rebellious side that we have in France.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
And then, of course I'm also Muslim, and I know
that this is.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Like, did you grow up Muslim?
Speaker 4 (08:27):
No, I didn't. I grew up Catholic.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
But I became Muslim when I was at university doing
my undergraduate degree at Cambridge I and I basically did
not feel like I fitted in at all, and I
made my alternative group of friends who were predominantly West
African Muslims, French speaking, and I learned about Islam through
(08:51):
their example and fell in love really with what we
call achlec in our faith, which is you can summarize
the whole of.
Speaker 4 (08:58):
Islam through manners.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Manners and the people I met were of impeccable, impeccable manners.
You know, the people who you say, if the meeting
is at ten, there are like nine p fifty nine
at the door with a box of biscuits.
Speaker 4 (09:12):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yes, By the way, if I impersonate you, I'm not mocking.
I'm mimicking. Okay, I get that bag, have it. But
it comes from love. It comes from love.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
I would never be offended, Amanda, you go, you go?
Speaker 2 (09:27):
So there's like, well, actually wait, put a pin in that.
Speaker 4 (09:29):
Yes, okay, So y'all.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
I was supposed to do an interview with Miriam Francois,
first time we were supposed to meet, like on digital,
and the time zones got all mucked up and I
missed the interview.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I want you to know I lost sleep over.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
I lost sleep over this because I pride myself on manners.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
So I was like, God, damn it. And then Miriam was.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Like, we were counting on you, and I was like
it was est but I'm in esh my god.
Speaker 4 (10:04):
This was when we were doing the stream.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Yes, I'm so comforted that we've come this far, because
I definitely have.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I was like, she's gonna un follow me.
Speaker 4 (10:15):
I mean, I'm sure you'd be devastated, but I would have.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Been, like the type of person I am, I would
have felt so I'm like, this is all your fault.
You didn't show up and everyone was waiting for you,
and oh my.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
God, listen, these things actually do happen with time zones.
And I didn't say it to make you feel bad.
But I did learn a lot from people who were
in so many ways like embodying what I considered to
be the highest values of our faith, which are like
not actually that complicated and pretty universal, like being contained,
(10:49):
being empathetic, being respectful, being loving, you know, being reliable,
but actually in a world where we don't necessarily have
many of us don't necessarily have like an internal compass
that helps sort of guide that frameworker values. I do
think that capitalism can take over and in bybuss with
far less beautifying values than those that faith in general,
(11:13):
I think encourages us to.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
I just really feel like that gets lost in the
effort to continuously vilify Islam. It becomes about some whole
other thing. And by the way, in the same way
there's an effort to purify Christianity while using it.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
To commit incredible.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Acts of violence over centuries, weaponizing it beyond belief.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
Can I just say that right now, between like bin
Laden were he alive and your current government, it's the same.
Speaker 4 (11:54):
I mean, yeah, I don't know the pattention.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I mean, it's really like they learnt and said, okay,
we know how to mimic this. I mean, that's essentially
what's going on. And I mean the Nazis learned from
our government. So there's quite a bit of foolery and
terror going on for sure. So I was welcomed into
(12:19):
your orbit post October seventh when the algorithm started creating
a silo of those of us who are who have
like a heart and we're speaking about Palestine in like
very loud ways, and I was, of course like, who
is this white lady?
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Who is this British lady? And then she's I'm learning
so much.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And every time I was seeing I mean, aside from
your own personal videos, I would see you as a
pundit on a lot of these programs, and it was
so important that you were on these particular programs because
whenever I would see Palestinian folks on these programs, the
immediate dismissal. It was very much like, Okay, we're having
(13:06):
you on here just because it's the top of the
town right now, but like we don't really care what
you ever say. And also the egregiousness of these completely
daft newscasters trying to undermine with someone who's not only
experienced this but who's typically a scholar, like they would
have Palasinian scholars on and still be trying to undermine
them was just maddening. So I see someone like you
(13:28):
in these spaces and it was such a very like
committed effort to white descent, and how did you even
get into this realm of being that outward? Because it's
one thing to be a scholar, it's another thing to
be a speaker.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So I mean, I guess I obviously have a TV
career that you know, obviously long predates the last year,
primarily working in documentary films and presenting documentary films. My
first film actually for the BBC was presenting a documentary
on the genocide at sure Bernitza, which I had to
study genocide and the stages of genocide and what goes
(14:04):
into creating a genocide, including you know, things like dehumanizing
people that you were neighbours to for generations, so that
from one day to the next, not quite but literally
over a matter of months, a father from one household
can go to the household next door and shoot the
entire family dead.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
I mean, these are real stories that happened in Bosnia.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
And when you start to study the ways in which
communities were broken down, communities where people didn't even really
distinguish each other along those ethnic or religious lines previously,
and the ways in which those were instrumentalized by different
political parties to try to create these divisions and convince
people that they were enemies with people that they'd lived
(14:44):
in peace with for generations and often intermarried with. That
was something that I found not just sobering, but really
worrying because I observed many of those layers of dehumanization
happening here in Europe when it comes particularly to the
Muslim communit, but it also occurs when you're talking about refugees,
asylum seekers and people of color in general. You know,
(15:06):
it's just a kind of part of the wider picture.
But when it comes specifically to Muslims, you know, obviously
it being my community, I'm observing this genocide which happened
literally in Europe, you know, on our doorstep. And I'm
thinking to myself, hold on, not only am I learning
about this as an adult and I didn't really know
about it. I didn't know about a genocide within Europe
(15:26):
apart from the Holocaust, like that's the only one I
knew about. And then I'm like, it's a genocide of
Muslims at a time where we're seeing increasing Islamophobia, where
like friends of mine don't want to leave the house
unless they're with someone because they're scared of being attacked.
We literally had riots here in the summer in the
UK where black and brown people were being attacked in parks,
like just walking through a park, people coming at them.
(15:48):
They were trying to burn down mosques, hotels with asylum seekers. So,
you know, I obviously had a TV presence where I
had the very fortunate position of being able to tell
stories that I cared about, not always, but when I
had the chance of getting a story commissioned, because lots
of stories I care about did not get commissioned. And
then of course as time went on, there'd be things
(16:10):
that would pop up that I felt that I should
speak out on. So I've spoken out with regards to
Isamophobia for decades now, like most of my adult life,
and I think obviously, when this issue was back in
the news over the last year, I'm like, you know,
I have lived in Palestine, I speak Arabic, I have
studied the millions.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
I've taught this course at Oxford.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
I think maybe I just maybe have something I could
but maybe not.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
I don't maybe take it or leave it.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Most people left it and occasionally I got handed the mic,
and on occasion those moments were able to land. But
you know, definitely the whiteness is a big part of
that story. As you say, you know, Palestinians not only
say exactly what I'm saying and far better than I do,
but they unfortunately do not benefit from one of the
(17:00):
key facets of whiteness, which is the semblance of normality, respectability,
and trustworthiness. You know, and you also have to know, Amanda,
that I went through my own kind of experience with
whiteness where I wore hisherb. I wore a head scarf
for like over ten years most of my adult life
I was wearing a head scarf. And when I began
wearing a head scarf, I stepped through the looking glass
(17:21):
because I literally became a person of color. In white
people's views, I was no longer white, I was no
longer white. I would get racially abused.
Speaker 4 (17:30):
I know this is going to sound strange because you're
looking at me now and you're like, people are.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Racially abusing this white woman. I was being called a
sand jockey. The N word would come up, the key
word would come up. I am not even joking, yes,
because when white people overwhelmingly look at a person in
jjab in a head scarf, they don't see themselves.
Speaker 4 (17:51):
And so, of course whiteness is about protecting privilege, right,
So anything that takes you out and puts you in
the category of other, which obviously your muslimness.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Does, you get flipped over the other side of the
fence and suddenly you're looking over from the other side
of the fence like say what, like.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
What, yea, I'm not on this side anymore. And it's
literally cloth, It's a piece of class.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
It's literally a piece of cloth. It's literally a piece
of cloth. And that was the difference between me being
followed around a store. It was a difference between me
being abused physically and verbally in the street about me
being denied access to certain restaurants or cafes in France
and French being told that this was not my place,
(18:33):
this is not my city. You don't belong here, You're
not welcome here. Half the time, honestly, I felt like
removing it and be like, really, I.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Don't belong here. You're gonna tell me I didn't belong here.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Let's talk, which would sound even better in French, because
here is sad in French.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Is everything sounds head French.
Speaker 3 (18:51):
But the hilarious thing, and this is the bit that
people don't realize, is that my muslimness is what stopped
me in many cases from losing my call, because it
taught me such a high level of trying to be
respectful and always upholding the highest image of our faith,
which is to not speak derogatively to other people, even
if they're insulting.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
You, you know, And it taught me a lot of
self restraint. But inside I was dying.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
I was like, honestly, because I'm not naturally inclined that way,
fair same, I'm just not. So it takes a lot
of work for me to kind of implement that. And
then of course The crazy thing is, obviously I take
off the hijab a few years later, not for any
bad reasons.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Still love the hijab. Maybe one day I'll be worthy
of wearing it again.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
But I then step back through the other side, where
I've now been like pushed out into the black and
brown people camp for like a good ten years, and
then Naya take it off, and I'm back in the
white camp, and I'm like, who are you?
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What the bread?
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Where am I? Why am I here with you?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
And of course the big one is you suddenly are
privy to a lot of things that people would never
say in a room where they knew that black and
brown people were present, and would never say in front
of me.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
If I was wearing a hitjhab about.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Muslims, especially obviously, I would hear stuff about Muslims that.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
They would assume that me looking the way I do
that I'd be like.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, of course, we don't want those people over here.
I'd be like, sorry, what what did you just say?
Did you just say you don't want Muslims in the country. Yeah,
I'm muslim sir.
Speaker 5 (20:20):
No.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Then you can hear the record screen and you're like, oh,
I didn't mean you, and I'm like, no, you didn't
mean you absolutely meant me. And the best part, of
course of that conversation is when they say, no.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
No, I didn't mean you.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
I meant you, know the ones who wear the stuff,
And I'm like, that's me.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
I am her. You're talking to her. You want to talk,
let's talk. I'm all for talking. I love to talk, Amanda.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I just I feel like that is so that's a
very unique experience, like you know that.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
Right, Yes, yes I do.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And I also want to caveat that by saying that
even though I wore hijab for obviously most of my
adult life and that I was treated by white people
as not white, I don't want to compare that to
the experience of a black or brown person who wears
jab because I have no idea what that experience is like, right,
probably that on steroids. So all I can really comment
(21:21):
on is what I lived through, which was definitely them
putting me in the like so what are you you
like half Algerian or are you Bosnian? Is your dad Pakistani?
Speaker 4 (21:31):
And I'm just like.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Just French and Eilish that's.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
The one, so yes, yeah, of course, and it shaped
me profoundly, And of course, my community shapes me profoundly
in that the majority of the people around me are
not white, and I feel very blessed for that.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
So I can't remember if we were saying this off
the air or on the air, but where do you
feel like white descent needs to be directed at present?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Because let me tell you something here in the United States.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I'm always reminding white people in the United States, you know,
this is yourmestic clean up. Absolutely, so I would love
to hear your thoughts, you know, in general.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
I mean, I guess the real conundrum for the majority
of people who are racialized as white is the fact,
first and foremost is you and I both know they
don't understand.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
Their selves as white, right.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
Whiteness is neutrality, and that's why people get offended if
you say you're white. That's why peers los his shit
when I'm like, you know, you're a white man like
But I wasn't actually referring to his skin tone, right,
I mean, he could have been black.
Speaker 4 (22:39):
I would have told him he was a white man
like I. It was what he was saying that was very,
very white.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
And supportive of white structures of oppression and that's kind
of the key point here, right, But the point is
if you have never really internalized the meaning of your
racial identity in a given context where race matters, you
cannot begin to fix the problem. And so the difference
between people of color and white people is that people
of color don't get a choice in understanding the meaning
(23:06):
that is attributed to your racial identity. Albeit constructed, we
can move through the world as if we are neutral,
as if we don't have racial identity color blind. And so,
you know, if anyone's watching this and they don't know
what I'm talking about, and they're thinking, what is she
on about? I could only really recommend Bell Hooks's Whiteness
and Black Imagination, which is an essay in which she
(23:28):
really just describes how black communities felt when white people
would enter majority black spaces. And I do think it's
important to understand that perception because the words that came
up the most things like terrorizing, frightening, violent, sadistic. I mean,
sometimes that's the mirror we have to look into to
(23:49):
understand the damage that's been done. And I don't think
it's really possible to begin to fix it until we
really do see ourselves for what we've contributed to constructing
and then of the how. The challenge, of course, is
that the deconstruction cannot really be led by white people
in my humble opinion, and that's because we have blind
spots in this game. I have blind spots in this game.
(24:10):
I say this all the time. I'm like, I can
read all the books. My friends will walk into a
room and they have sensed it before I've even like
done all the book work to understand it.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
You know what I mean, right?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
You just you felt it, you knew it in your bones,
and I had to like read to get It's not
the same.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
It's not the same.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
I was walking with my next door neighbor once and
these three like fifty, like boomer boomer age white women
started walking in front of us in the clan and
they're like, you see what I just said in a clan.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
In a gaggle.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
And I said to her, I said, you know when
I see that, that's danger to me, right, And she.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Was like, wh yeah, and.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
She's Persian, but she in La looks white, right, And
I said, because that represents Karen's that represents women who
weaponiz their whiteness. I've seen women like this in this
formation on so many occasions, just causing harm. Yeah, And
she was like, I just can't imagine. And I was like, well,
(25:13):
now you can because I told you. But she hasn't
thought about that.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
No, And she's also probably not got the same history.
You know, obviously Iran, for all the attempts to colonize,
it was not colonized. You know, that does make a
difference to people's self perception and experience of whiteness.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
You have to recognize that.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Obviously, African Americans, you know, you're obviously coming from the
descendants of colonized people who are then enslaved and then
put through hundreds of years of slavery. I mean, it's
incomparable to people who grew up being aware of the
threat of Western imperialism but not necessarily having to experience
living under its day to day violence. And I think
(25:54):
that is obviously what the African American experience is and
why it's soch an important experience to understand liberation movements
from within the empire, because no one understands liberation from
within the empire better than the people who are tied
to liberation movements at home but have been then brought
over and have to then liberate themselves within the sense
(26:17):
of empire. You guys have been doing it for hundreds
of years. There's a lot to learn. There's a lot
to learn. So I think on that that's kind of
why we're saying white people can't take the lead on this.
You can't trust us. You cannot trust us, you cannot
trust us to lead the movement and manner.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
However, it's a sad reality. We're never going to fully
get it.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
We're never going to see everything, we're never going to
understand it all perfectly. And just like class consciousness works,
where even when you think you're allied with the working class,
the minute you are living in your lux pad, you
care more about people breaking into your lux pad than
why they are breaking into the lux pad.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
This is another conversation I had with my neighbor because
there was all these like flash thefts happening at the
malls in LA and she was just like, I don't
know why this is happening, And I was like really,
and she was like, I mean, it's just so ridiculous
that they're doing this. And I was like, I think
(27:18):
you're missing the fact that it's so ridiculous that they
would need to do this. This isn't happening worldwide, okay,
Like this is happening in specific places where there are
specific systemic issues that are not being dealt with. And
she was just like, I mean, she understood it by
the end of it. But it's like that thought process
(27:40):
is so far removed for a lot of folks. And
when I hear you speak, I'm like, I wonder if
those people who may not have heard it when I
said it are hearing it when you said it.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Have you gotten any of that experience.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
By and Lodge?
Speaker 3 (27:56):
You know, I mean, this is going to betray my
political leanings, but I think your class consciousness does massively
blinker you to the issues affecting people outside of your
class identity. And one of the benefits of being middle
class but then being broke is that you, without going
into my personal circumstances in too much depth, you have
(28:17):
the humbling experience of living alongside people who have problems
you never thought you'd have, and suddenly their problems are
now your problems. And I'm actually super grateful for that.
I'm super grateful that I am in a situation where
many of the issues that I cared about theoretically, when
I was more comfortable, became much realer to me in
(28:40):
a way that now they're part of my DNA fight,
you know what I mean. I'm like, there's no version
of the story where like housing, education, healthcare are not
going to be top of my priority for everyone, because,
I mean, here's the secret. Capitalism doesn't want you to
know you have more chance of becoming homeless than I'm
(29:00):
being a millionaire.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Do it?
Speaker 5 (29:04):
I know, I know, I know, I know Instagram is
telling us the opposite of this, But really, when Michael
said they don't really care about us, he was bang on.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Can you also, please anyone watching this go back and
watch Michael's videos. Last night we did a little Michael binge.
I was like, Michael's out here in the favelas of Brazil.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yes, yes, jamming, that was I in the favelas.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah, he gave center stage. I can't even remember what
the video it was now.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
He gave center stage in that video to the drummers,
to the local people.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
He did not center Michael in here all the world.
He's not even in the videos.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
He's not in the video.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Tell me today, who who is doing it? Who is
doing a Michael today, who is putting out bangers on
that level and not centering themselves in the music. Who
today could put out a video that is going to
be heard everywhere in the world.
Speaker 4 (30:05):
And only have in the video? How do we put this?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
He was out here spreading the good propaganda, yes, the
good travel.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
He really was.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
And I just, you know, I love a little Drake
diss by Kendrick the super Bowl, but I still, you know,
was still in like rappers and rappers and my ego
and your ego, and you know.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Well, I think that he did both. So I'll give
him perhaps for that.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
He did do both.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
And I really did like the super Bowl show for
the fact that I felt that he in the imagery
of what was coming up for me.
Speaker 4 (30:38):
It felt very militant, but in the right like.
Speaker 3 (30:41):
We need We have never needed people to form rank
and get into shape. We need that more than ever before.
And I felt it watching it. I was like, this
is a call.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
So I felt, Yeah, I was annoyed when I saw
people like this is not revolutionary shit up Ah.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
I think I just does a part of me that
finds the Drake diss thing.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
So here's the thing about the Drake thing. It actually
goes along with white descent.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Okay, go on, because Drake's.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Mother is a white Jewish woman. Yes, and Drake does
play both sides. When he feels so fit, he's a gangster.
He's saying nigga, he's with the blacks, and then he's
in the turtleneck and he's presenting himself like he's a
mob boss and he's with the whites in the offices,
et cetera, et cetera, being this really you know, upstanding
(31:41):
guy and like talking like this right. And so when
he's doing this dance back and forth, you know, someone
like Kendrick is like, well, I don't get to do
that dance back and forth. And also like, Drake is
a cornball. And I can say that as somebody who's
met Drake and interacted with Drake, like he's just a
corny phony dude.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
I've never understood it. I know I'm in a minority,
I it.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Yeah, I mean he like lies about his security guard
being killed to like make up for standing you up.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Like it's really ridiculous. But the thing about it is that, yeah,
that's a true story. He could use that to actually
be in defense of and.
Speaker 1 (32:17):
In the co conspirator position and the white descent lane,
but he doesn't for sure.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
No, Instead, he's suing Kendrick for calling him a colonizer.
Speaker 1 (32:27):
When he said the phrase, Kendrick is rapping like he's
trying to free the slaves.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Yes, all bets are off.
Speaker 4 (32:34):
I mean, on top of which I felt like accurate.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
No, that's why he was saying it like a disc Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
But you know you're listening to it and you're like,
and the next line is and.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
So I will join you?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Yes, hey, No, yes, accurate.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
I mean, isn't that the goal isn't liberat Like I
guess maybe I'm just you know, all off in my
head a bit too much with the liberation stuff. But like,
to me, the whole goal is liberation. Everything that we're
involved in is liberation because the system we're in is
about enslaving.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
But they don't believe that.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
They don't even understand that because he benefits and I
tell you.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
These people make so much money.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Yeah, that liberation Like for them, they think liberation is
the freedom to harm anyone without punishment.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Indeed, freedom is indeed the freedom to do harm and
to never be accounted for it. I mean, I get it,
but I I grew up listening to you know, before
I ever traveled to America, the only way I knew
of America was I just used to listen to hip hop.
And at that time, I'm listening to like Dead Prayers,
I'm listening to n WA.
Speaker 4 (33:43):
Yes, I know you're laughing at me.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Now those are also very specific choices, right, I mean.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I listened to a range, but like Dead Prayers for sure,
you know, took me down a rabbit hole.
Speaker 4 (33:53):
And I was like, oh, damn, way right right, right,
really happened? Who's who? Hold a wait? Work who? Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:01):
And so I learned about another side of American history
from hip hop. And then obviously when people try and
invite you to the land of the Free and the
brave and you're like, no, I've lied.
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Yeah, I know, I know this isn't the one.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
But I'm only saying that because I felt that there
was such a powerful moral critique of capitalism, of oppressive systems,
attempts to create cross liberation, corporation and alliances. And now
today I look and I'm like, oh, capitalism just did
really ruin everything.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Isn't it wild?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's so pervasive, And I know that for someone like
myself who grew up in American schools, the concept of
capitalism was never mentioned.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
It was never mentioned.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
I mean it was I want to say, maybe just
as like an aside.
Speaker 4 (34:51):
Yeah, I took.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Government in economics as a senior in high school, and
I had to take economics to graduate college, and the
concept of capitalism was very simply presented as like a
system of finance. That's literally how it was presented, Like, yeah,
we have a capitalist society, which means we have businesses
and we can pay for things.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
And I will tell you that it wasn't until like honestly,
maybe the last three years that I began to really
understand capitalism as a weaponized force against the people, because
I had not connected that to slavery, to women's bodily harm,
to all the things.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
And it is connected to all the things.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (35:34):
But like you said, you.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Keep digging, you keep digging, you keep digging, and then
when you get to.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
The root, you're like, oh, money is the root of
all evil?
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Yeah, well, I mean certainly in the film that we're
commonly in, you know, like I think that the fact
that we do not teach people accurately about why we
have the wealth that we do in the countries that
we're in and people don't have that wealth in other countries,
and the connections between history and colonial extraction and ongoing
(36:03):
forms of neo colonial extraction frankly means that we are
setting people up to very deliberately misunderstand what system we're
operating in and therefore confusing people as to what the
solutions are, because then you might be looking at remedial
solutions if you believe the systems are inherently fair, which
is what we taught about capitalism. Oh, the markets just
(36:24):
naturally balance themselves out. Well, hold on, didn't Trump just
announce tariffs on like most of your neighbors. I mean,
tariffs has traditionally thought of as like a protectionist measure
that we find in more like socialist states. And in fact,
if you're a country in the Global South, you don't
even get to put any tariffs because essentially you were
given a loan and in exchange for that, you had
to accept that your markets would be flooded with goods
(36:45):
from wealthier countries, which will also ensure that you remain
in debt, probably in purenity.
Speaker 4 (36:50):
So I mean, look, I find that, as usual.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
The more you dig, the more you learn, the more
you realize there's more to learn. But you also see
connections between the differences tom of oppression and you will
so through that start to understand the common focus of anger, anger,
righteous anger.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
Righteous anger. So when I watch you on these shows,
that's what I feel like. I'm watching, like I'm watching
really refined rage. And I mean when you pull the
ponytail back, that's when I know.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I'm like, so, she's coming for them today. She's got
the ponytail in. They don't even know what's coming.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
You know, when I stick it back, When I stick
it back, I'm ready for wool.
Speaker 1 (37:35):
I really do feel like, you know, you've put the
vaseline on your face and you're like, we're.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Gonna fight, We're gonna scrap.
Speaker 1 (37:41):
When you're in these spaces, Yeah, talk to me about
how you feel like you have shown up in white descent.
Like I can tell you my audience probably hasn't seen
some of these. So like, if you want to give
you some of your greatest heads, please.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Well, I guess look, you know probably the video that
you may have come across me. First, which went viral
earlier this year, was the Sky News interview that I
did with the Alder Hakim. It was her first show
and we were talking about a number of things, but
of course one of the questions that got put to
me was the idea that we should have put measures,
we should have taken action against who these far earlier,
(38:21):
and we should have brought in sanctions and all the
rest of it. And I'm just listening to this in
the midst of a genocide, just like you fuckers, for real,
this is the con like children are having their limbs
amputated without anesthetic and you want to talk to me
about trying to stop one of the only groups that
basically is doing what we are required to do as
(38:41):
signatures of the Genocide Convention, which is to use all
means necessary to stop the genocide. We are signatureies here
in the UK. You guys are not in the US.
Speaker 4 (38:50):
But we are here in the UKA.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
We are here in the UK signatures of the Genocide Convention,
and it literally says that we have to do everything
to stop genocide by all means possible. And so you
want to have a discussion about like you know, why
are these people blocking these trade routes? And of course
that's where the line that kind of turned me into
a meme about you know, I'm so sorry that your
(39:11):
Amazon packages are delayed, but you know, genocide. Yeah, just
that little detail, and I think you know what resonated
in that moment was obviously the reality or the starkness
may be, of the gulf between what we were experiencing
of the genocide, which was the inconvenience of our packages
being delayed, and the reality of that genocide for the
(39:34):
people who were living through it. So you know, that
certainly was one of them. And I could obviously tell
from the gentleman who was opposite me, who is you know,
one of these men who's you know, at Davos and
all these very important places. Yes, he was just looking
at me with this kind of bemused look, and I
the only thing I could think of was no, I'm maybe.
Speaker 4 (39:58):
Not verbalizing, but.
Speaker 3 (40:02):
I'll put it bluntly and just say, yeah, don't you
don't know me. We have not met, And I understand
that the parameters of this discussion requires us to maintain
this front of civility.
Speaker 4 (40:15):
But I'm gonna wait for you outside.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Ah, yeah, well that brings us. Yeah, we're about to
go to our special Patreon segments, So come on over
to the Patreon because doctor Miriam Francois has had the
unfortunate experience of spending more time than I would ever
want to with Pierce Morgan, and I would love to
(40:37):
get your thoughts on Pierce Morgan during our Patreon only segment.
So come on over Seal Squad and join us as
we keep it very very very real, doctor Francois, in
(40:59):
your opinion, and as someone who is not from the
United States, what do you see from the outside as
a way that Americans are not showing up in being
white dissenters.
Speaker 3 (41:14):
I mean, I don't know America beyond the way that
I absorb American culture externally. You know, I'm coming to
the US in a few days, and it'll be the
first time I'm back in the US since well apart
from like a brief holiday.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
But I was this is perfect.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
This is perfect because Americans have no idea how we're
viewed by the outside world.
Speaker 3 (41:36):
Okay, So I mean we're looking at it thinking like
civil wars pending that the white supremacists are back in
the White House, that you basically have got people in
power now who are beholden to extremist ideologies and that
are not guided by evidence or rationale, and who are
also then allied with big tech companies that have huge
(42:00):
amounts of control over many aspects of our lives.
Speaker 4 (42:03):
And so that kind of combination of.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Elements makes not just the resistance harder because obviously the
spaces in which we dissent have increasingly come online, and
these people have control and insight into all of that information.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
But I think we've also just become so siloed.
Speaker 3 (42:21):
That at the start of this we were talking about
kind of the echo chambers of our algorithms, Like, I
don't know how the White America that buyers into the
Trump narrative is brought round to see the world differently
without engaging them, and we don't even engage them online
(42:42):
as in these companies don't even engage them online. Yes,
because I'm not saying that we necessarily should always be seeing,
let's say, in our silos, their content, but I think
that I try and deliberately actually watch content from people
that I disagree with to understand where they're coming from,
because sometimes you might not agree with the form of
(43:05):
the argument, but you might understand why they're arguing. And
I think that that's even lost.
Speaker 4 (43:13):
You know.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
It's like, I just dislike you, you know, this polarization
that we have, and so yeah, I mean, I guess
I'm fearful for you guys, and I'm traveling to the US.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
I feel a bit more anxious this time than I've
ever felt before about traveling to the US because also, Amanda,
obviously I present as white, and I don't want to
be with the white people. I don't want to be with.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
The white people infiltrate. I'm just saying.
Speaker 4 (43:37):
I'm just saying, I end up in sing we call
it this book by the door.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
You gotta be the white by the door.
Speaker 3 (43:43):
I mean, look, I lived in the States. The racial
dynamics in America are very specific.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
It is, and part of it, though is and I
really do believe this, like it's specific to the people
who want it to be. But for so many folks,
the racial dynamics in the United States for so long
were really just.
Speaker 2 (44:01):
Like black and white.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Yes, but it is much more than that these days,
and not just in the coastal communities.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
I remember going to Iowa in nineteen ninety nine. Do
you know where Iowa's south? You don't need to Iowa
is in the Midwest.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
It's like when people talk about like the whitest of
white people in America, they'll usually reference Iowa or Idaho
because it's just like.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
Yes, I you feel like, no, I've had it used
in that way. I've had it used in that way.
Speaker 1 (44:34):
Yes, yes, it's like real, like we're the salt of
the earth, whites of America. And I remember I went
out to Iowa for a scholarship competition. And by the way,
when the person picked us up, like us winners at
the airport, he opened the door to the minivan and said, wow,
y'all the first colors I've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
So let's start there.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Oh god wow.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
So we get in the car and we're like great
and that we drive like two hours into the depths
of Iowa, and the person who met us, who's like
our chaperone, she's like, yeah, taking us through main street
in the town, she's like, we've had a rash of Mexicans.
But dad, da da da, a rash of Mexicans. I've
(45:18):
never forgotten it till this day.
Speaker 4 (45:19):
What does that even mean?
Speaker 2 (45:20):
We've had a lot of Mexicans.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
But guess what the Mexicans had built the Chinese restaurant.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
They had a Mexican restaurant, they had a.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
Store, And it was like, even though these people have
come and improved your community.
Speaker 4 (45:36):
Yeah, okay, you're enjoying that Mexican food.
Speaker 1 (45:38):
You still are referring to them in a derogatory manner. However,
what that also said to me, though, was it's not
just white and black anymore. Where I live in New York,
It's not just Mexican. It's like El Salvadorians, Nicaraguans, Guatemalans, Dominicans,
Puerto Ricans, Like, this is a different world than I
(45:59):
think those whites that are in charge now are aware of. Yeah,
they're also I don't think, counting on people like you
that exist here in the United States, and they do.
Speaker 3 (46:09):
We have a term that was in the UK and
the eighties in the anti racism movement, we understood blackness
as political blackness, and political blackness was an outlook that
was adopted by many people of different backgrounds who were
considered to be outside of whiteness. But also as a
white person, you could say I identify with political blackness,
(46:32):
and I think it's a little sad actually that we've
lost the notion of black power as a political orientation
that if you understand, it is just about liberations starting
from the grassroots up.
Speaker 2 (46:45):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (46:45):
It's a very simple recipe essentially for liberation. It start
with the people who have the greatest intersection of oppression
and learn from that the problems that are inherent to
the way our society you're structured, and once you start
addressing the issues they're facing, then essentially you are fixing
(47:06):
society as a whole. So it's like that beautiful thing
that actually by helping the most vulnerable, you're helping yourself,
you know. It's that interconnectedness that religion also teaches you
that you should want for your brother what you want
for yourself. But it's not just out of like the
idea of you want them to have the same as you.
It's also whatever you wish for them, you are also
wishing for yourself. Whatever you create as a benchmark for others,
(47:30):
you're also determining could be a benchmark for you. That
you're saying that we don't allow anyone to slip through
those cracks, and that's a solidarity that I think, you know,
obviously from a faith perspective, transcends obviously the kind of
racial divides that have been created and cemented within our society.
Even though, and I have to obviously caveat this, we
still find huge forms of racism within the Muslim community,
(47:54):
and we also find Islamophobia within the Black community. So
everyone still has work to do.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
The last.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
And that's a perfect way to wrap it up.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
We're on a journey.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
Everyone still has work to do. Thank you so much.
I'm so glad that this happened.
Speaker 3 (48:19):
Yeah, it was my pleasure. Honestly, I love you. I
love your voice, I love everything you do. You're such
an incredible powerhouse in everything. Like every space you show
up in you brighten the screen. Like I said, I mean,
I thought you were. You know, I'm not gonna we
won't get into the insecure craze, but I thought you
were so brilliant in that, and I you know, I
(48:41):
hope to see you in many, many more series to come.
Speaker 4 (48:43):
You are, you know, an asset to every production we
have seen you in.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
I hate doing productions well there are you You know
what it is. It's just that I despise inefficiency, and
the Hollywood the way of doing productions actually lives off
of inefficiency to feed it. So yeah, you would think, oh, well,
they don't want to spend money, so this should be efficient. No,
(49:12):
it's really backwards, like why are we doing sixteen hour
days to shoot a TV show? This doesn't make any sense, like, oh, yeah, no,
we are not saving lives to the point where we
need to be here for sixteen hours. Yeah, get your
shots together so we can get in here and get out.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
But that's another episode for another time.
Speaker 1 (49:29):
But you will be seeing you will be seeing other works.
I have my one woman show that I've been working
on that I've been producing, and then my book by
the Way, when Through the BS comes out in October wonderful.
Speaker 2 (49:39):
So UK, you know what, I don't have any contacts
in the UK.
Speaker 4 (49:44):
Well we cant you in touch? Yeah for sure, because.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
I have fans, I have like a base in the UK,
and I've just never been able to get over there.
Speaker 3 (49:52):
Yeah no, no, for sure you do. And there's a
big comedy circuit here, you know. So I don't think
that should be an issue at all. Well we'll make
some connect all right.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
In it let's do.
Speaker 1 (50:03):
Thank you so much, doctionary and francois my man, it
is my pleasure.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Where can they get more of you? How where can
they follow you?
Speaker 4 (50:09):
Oh? Please follow me on Instagram at mis fossoir, which
is m y z f R A n C. I s.
I am gradually weaning myself off Twitter, but I am
still on this still on Twitter.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
I know, I know, I left so long ago. I
love when it got mean. By the way, y'all, for
the Americans, Z is Z the letter Z.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
Yes, right, thank you for the translation. The X is
a horrific place.
Speaker 3 (50:37):
And now if you criticize Elon on X, which I
regularly do just for the kicks, you lose one thousand
followers each time. Yeah, you just could do it as
a chest you just fuck it on loose follows. Yeah,
but we should still be saying fuck Elon all over
that platform.
Speaker 4 (50:57):
Yes, but noted. Yes, And I'm not alone to have
made this test and verified it, so it's a real thing.
Speaker 2 (51:03):
It's a real thing. Well, there you go, y'all.
Speaker 1 (51:05):
If you're still over there in Twitter Land, because it
will always be Twitter to me.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
If you're still over there.
Speaker 3 (51:10):
Then obviously come off and actually, yeah, more to the point,
follow me on YouTube, which is where I have my
show called The Tea with Miriam Frosua, where we basically
drop the gems by bringing on guests that kind of
help you understand the story behind the stories, because we
all know there's like the story which I now call
the charade, but there's also the story behind the stories,
(51:32):
and we dig into the stories behind the stories.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
There, y'all go make sure you check it out.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
Thank you so much, Thanks Amanda,
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Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.
Dateline NBC
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