October 1, 2024 • 26 mins
Buckle up, folks, because this week we’re trading small-town gossip for spine-chilling folklore. Get ready for the dark and twisted tale of María Miranda, the so-called "Witch of Guadalupe," and the legendary curse she placed on Josefina Chavez—a curse that ended with murder. Yep, small-town drama just got extra supernatural.
We’ll dig into the gritty details of Josefina’s tragic fate, investigate María’s mysterious reputation, and—because no eerie tale is complete without some desert vibes—venture into the haunting Superstition Mountains, where treasure seekers, ghost hunters, and those with bad life choices go to get seriously lost.
Was it a curse? A crime of passion? Or just another day in the Wild West? Don't miss your exit. Because in Guadalupe, Arizona, it's not just the heat that'll get you—it's the witch’s curse too.
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We’ll dig into the gritty details of Josefina’s tragic fate, investigate María’s mysterious reputation, and—because no eerie tale is complete without some desert vibes—venture into the haunting Superstition Mountains, where treasure seekers, ghost hunters, and those with bad life choices go to get seriously lost.
Was it a curse? A crime of passion? Or just another day in the Wild West? Don't miss your exit. Because in Guadalupe, Arizona, it's not just the heat that'll get you—it's the witch’s curse too.
Visit us:
www.smalltownusashow.com
Follow us:
X --> https://twitter.com/smalltownusashw
Instagram --> https://www.instagram.com/smalltownusashow/
Follow 19 Media Group:
Twitter: @19MGroup
Instagram: 19mediagroup
https://www.19MediaGroup.com
Discover our favorite podcast gear and support the show—shop our studio must-haves on our Amazon Affiliate page! https://www.amazon.com/shop/19mediagroup
Want to join the conversation or invite us to your platform? Connect with us and share your vision (budget-friendly collaborations welcome)! https://bit.ly/19Guest
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Navigating to small town, USA shool walkers.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
For one, are we chalon? Hi, Jessica hate carbon?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hanging in there, I would say that hanging in.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
There, hanging in that's about all we can do right now.
My yeadusan. It's so fun. Yeah, this is like record
setting temperatures right now. I know, most people are getting
coats for school, and we're like, look, I'm not even
I'm not even wearing a sure, not kidding, I'm wearing
a shirt. It's just hot. It is so hot.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, yesterday I think it was one hundred and seven
on my car thermometer. Oh my god, it was just crazy.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah. My husband sent me a picture of his thermostat
in his truck. One hundred and thirty six degrees. Oh
my god, right inside the truck, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
you can dehydrate food in that temperature.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, well that's a good plan. Actually, you know, hey,
that is oh my, maybe we could do that while
we're working, Just dehydrate fruit in their cars.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yes, we'll call it a car jerky. Yeah, how yummy?
Does that sound? Somebody asked me a question recently, and
I didn't realize it was an insult until probably just today.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh no, what was that?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Somebody asked me? Where where witches go to die? Where
am I going to go to die? Basically I just
thought it was like a real question.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
You're not a witch? You're not a witch?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Or are you?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Or should I watch it tonight?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Oh? I don't put spells on people. I've been feeling
really sick, and for a few moments I thought maybe
somebody put a spell on me because it was lasting
for so long.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, who would do that, though, wouldn't I would never
put a spell on you, Carmen.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I know. I'm sure there are plenty of people though,
you know what, I don't know. I take that back.
I think there's plenty of people who would want to,
but they know better.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Raw.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Did you ever hear about a local witch here inza.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
In Arizona and which Oh.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
She's pretty famous. Her full name is Maria Concepcion estraa
Miranda and she was the leading practitioner of the occult
in Guadalupe, Arizona. Population eight hundred and fifty So this
is now, yeah, and it still is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think it's still pretty small.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's right. Up there with Chloride Arizona. So,
but she is pretty famous. She's been in history books
and there's been many stories written about her, and she's
what a pretty interesting life. There's one rancher in particular
who had some run in.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, yeah, I did. I found an article of in
nineteen fifty two of the witch's death because he admits
to pretty much wholeheartedly killing Maria because she was a witch.
So the article, just the first part of the article,
I'll just read it because it's kind of shocking when
(03:51):
you think about it. It says a Mesa cattle rancher
and farmer confessed Wednesday that he is Guadalupe's voodoo killer,
guilty of slain he said stemmed from a curse that
blinded his wife eleven years ago.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Joe S.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Chavez of two hundred and fifty North Wilbur, Mesa told
sheriff and deputies that he shot missus Maria Strada Miranda.
That's how they put it on this article last Friday
in her home on the fringe of Guadalupe in the
Yaqua Indian village about ten miles southeast of Phoenix. Sure
(04:28):
I killed her, he said, blandly. She was a witch.
She sprinkled powder on my wife back in nineteen forty two,
and she started going blind. Doctors, healers and all others
couldn't help her. I spent a lot of money and
traveled many miles trying to get her cured, but it
just got worse. There's no cure but this.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, I mean there's a backstory though. So in nineteen
twenty nine, his wife inherited the ranch in the Superstition Mountains.
And for anybody who hasn't been in the Superstition Mountains,
they're called that for reason. Yeah. The way the sun sets,
the way the sun rises, and the shadows that are
(05:07):
cast in those mountains are eerie, beautifully eerie. The sounds,
the smells, and it's people often don't realize how how
mountainous the Arizona Train.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Oh yeah, I don't think anybody really knows until you
get close. Like I when thinking about before I moved
to Tucson, I would have thought desert. I would not
have thought you're going to be surrounded by big mountains,
I mean skiable mountains.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So yeah, yeah, I mean it's there's a lot of
mountains here. It's a it's a really diverse ecosystem. So
the wife of of this farmer, she inherited the land
and her name was was ho the Phena Puebla, So
I'm thinking based on that name, she may have been
(05:57):
a Yacki native. He raised cattle, and he leased some
of his land to other farmers that wanted to graize
their cattle on the land. So they lived a simple life,
you know, which was a normal life back then. Farming
isn't easy in Arizona, Okay, farm farming. Farming isn't easy anywhere,
(06:19):
but yeah, in Arizona, we have extremes.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Har Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
When something happened to his wife, she began having going blind.
She was suffering from like trans like spells where she
would toss her head back. She would complain that her
head was swelling up like a balloon.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could imagine encephalitis.
You know. There's a lot of things that could cause
your head to swell up. None of them are good,
none of them.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
None of them are good reasons for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
For sure, painful and oftentimes deadly. And you think, like
you get enough swelling in your brain that pushes on
your object nerve of course you're going to lose your vision.
So they had no idea, and he had gone to
so many hospitals, Saint Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix, you know,
nobody could say anything. And then finally one of the
yaki told him that his wife had been had been
(07:16):
cursed by the witch. And at first the farmer Joe
just kind of laughed about it. He didn't really believe
it because it seems impractical that you're going to be
haunted or cursed by a witch. But the yaki members
said that he needed to see a Puerto Rican bruha,
which is also another name for a witch or a healer,
(07:39):
and that's really the only person that could give him
a cure. So the farmer did go, and the witch
already knew the case, already knew all about Hotephina's case,
and offered his saber eyes for one hundred dollars, and
he paid on one hundred dollars. You think about that
back then for a farmer, that's a lot. He slipped
back into the hospital with a secret potion that he
(08:01):
got from the witch. He put three drops of it
into a glass of water and then gave it to
his wife. He did the same the next day, and
her sight began to return.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I'm just a little bit last that word. What do
you think was in that potion?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, it's a secret potion for a reason, I can
tell you. I mean, if if they knew, then if
we all knew, it wouldn't be a secret and everybody
could do it. But one day, after all of this happened,
then one day Maria Miranda the witch turned out and
she said she was the one that had cursed.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Oh she admitted it.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, and she sneaked into his house, shrieked at ho,
you will never see again, and fled. The next morning,
the wife was blind again.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Oh my god, Okay, it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah. Fruitlessly Joe took his wife to the witch's in
Tucson and no gallis Sonora Cavorca, Mexico. And I mean
he just he just went all over searching for another
curen't find anybody. So finally he had to, you know,
with hat in hand, he went to see Maria. Isn't
(09:14):
Maria a beautiful name? But I love Concepcion too. It's
a really beautiful name. I like that. I like that
her name was Maria.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, because you don't really think of Maria as a
witch name like Helga maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So she what is described as a fly blown parlor,
had a green altar and it's saints pictures. Some were
laid face down, and coins were placed against her lips
to protect Maria's clients from gossip, you know. So Joe
the farmer, Joe went in and he was begging for
a cure, and Maria left. She said that she would
(09:50):
help for his house, an eight thousand dollars house back then,
but when he went back in two weeks, she wanted
his ranch too. He refused anyway, so Maria was like
joking with him and laughing in his face, basically because
he wouldn't give up his land, he wouldn't give up
his house, and she was like, did you bring the
law back with you, like taunting him, and he was
like no. And then he just couldn't give up his
(10:12):
land or his house. Obviously he needed a place to live,
and he just went around tried to seek out other
witches for help. Then finally, finally he came to the
point where we're at your portion of the story, where
he just had it and couldn't bear to see his
wife in pain. Anymore. So he went and bang, bang bang.
(10:33):
She bought her.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
The next part of the article, he shot her five times, right,
He said that I shot her first in the forehead
and she fell over backward. Missus Miranda was found dead,
sprawled in an overturned kitchen chair by her husband, Antonio,
who was fifty five when he arrived home, and Tonio
(10:55):
was held as a suspect for days. Actually and not joke,
because nobody probably knew what was going on, or at
least the deputies didn't. Shaves went on and said, then
I let her have the rest of them. I just
took a six shooter and blasted her five times. Someone
asked why he fired after she fell, and he said,
I just wanted to make sure she was dead. I
(11:16):
guess I was mad. I had a reason to be right.
So the interesting thing about after he shot her was
that Missus Chaves told deputies and newspapers that her eyes
could distinguish between darkening light for the first time since
she was struck blind. So that second time that she
struck blind, obviously that was after Maria got shot and
(11:39):
was killed, she started seeing again. So now all of
a sudden, Missus Chavez has a portion of this article
that says missus Joe S. Chavez, blind eleven years, said
she started seeing again Friday when Missus Maria Estrella Miranda
was shot dead. So interesting that she started regaining her
sight almost immediately after I think so called witch was dead.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It is interesting. So another interesting fact about this story
is his name was Joe Chavez and his wife's name
was Chavis. They were both Joe Chavas. That's that's cute.
So he actually tried to get off on temporary insanity,
(12:24):
which I would have bought. I mean, if if there's
a person threatening witchcraft and your wife is experiencing this,
and then you have like she after your wife starts
seeing again from witchcraft, and then the witch comes into
your house and says you will never see again, Well,
I think you have to be a bit traumatic if
(12:45):
you're a witch.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, I guess so, I guess.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I don't know. I'm not I think so. I mean,
I think that whiches have a certain flare that they
have to you know, they have a reputation they have
to live up to. Right you ever heard of a
humble witch? Is there any story of No? They have
a reputation, right, so yeah, she was probably shrieking, but
(13:10):
that could have made somebody temporarily insane. He also tried
to plead self defense and had he shot her in
the moment of the streaking, Yeah, maybe he could have,
but they said and they convicted him a secondary murder. Yeah, well, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I want to know. I guess I don't know if
there's any facts on why she was cursed in the
first place, like why did the witch place a curse,
Like what was the reasoning behind it? Did she offend
her or I think there's like a land Was it
because of the land.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
You think? Yeah, so I think it was a land
dispute because hot Safina inherited that land in twenty nine,
so she was probably pretty young, you know. I'm sure
that's all she wanted was the house in the land.
She wanted the house in the ranch. So maybe that
that that area had some significant value to her. I mean,
who knows, who knows why somebody would take somebody's sight. Yeah,
(14:10):
and witches be witches, right, they know. Maybe maybe ho
Safina was looking at Miranda's husband. May maybe she wasa Miranda.
You don't mess with Maria's you don't mess with Carmen's
haven't we learned? You know?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And the other question I have is how did the
other witch know she was cursed, like know about her
name ahead of time all the way in Puerto Rico?
Did you say Puerto Rico?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
She was from Puerto Rico, but she was living in Arizona. Okay, Okay,
So yeah, well I think probably there's you know, when
you have a community of doctors, they kind of know
each other's stuff, and it doesn't take long for word
to get out of a doctor comes up with some
(14:58):
revolutionary cure. So I would imagine there's probably the same
sort of thing going on in witch communities. Yeah, I guess.
And also there wasn't a lot of TV or internet
to distract people back then, So yeah, what are you
gonna do? You're going to try to get in everybody's business.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
That's true when you think about that, But it is,
and it wasn't like that long ago. I mean it
was I mean the fifties. It wasn't like back during
the Salem witch trials, you know what I mean. It's
like here the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
For some cultures, you know, healers and this sort of
spiritual witchcraft if you will. I don't know that. I
don't know that all cultures would call them witches. I
think a lot of times they call them healers. Here
where we live in Arizona, there's a lot of that
primitive healing that still occurs here here in our town
(15:50):
in Tucson, but all over the state of Arizona. So
I think when you have cultures that stay close to
their roots, yeah, you know you're going to see that
sort of thing. We have drifted away from our culture
roots because if you look back at the Celtic gods
and you know, there was a lot of what probably
(16:11):
would have been considered witchcraft. Even with vikings, there was
probably stuff that was would be considered witchcraft.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, a lot of Norse, I mean that's basically it's
a paganistic type. Cultures that have a lot of that too,
So like Norse, Greeks.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And also I think, you know more primitive people who
did not have books or science, right, Oh, yeah, they
had to have relation with the earth and the sky
and the water and the you know, to understand and.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Survive or they didn't have, like you said, necessarily obviously
modern science. They were developing their own science, right, way
and explanations for what they were seeing and different things,
and the reoccurrence of the moon is a real big
It's used in many cultures and amongst like Pagans as
well as religions, you know, huge religions. They still are
(17:06):
looking at the phases of the moon because it does
obviously represent a day and a month, and you know,
so people are able to track time through that, and
women you know, are affected by the moon and the tide.
So it just feels like there's a lot of explanation
for the moon, for the sun, for the stars and
the alignments of things to create that type of hypotheses
(17:31):
that things are all related in that way, and that's
the spiritual aspect comes out. I might just be babbling here,
but I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah, you know, and a lot of that I I understand,
and I can't. I can relate to well put spells
on people, but.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
These don't put any spells on people now less they're
like real good ones. I mean, you got any like
get rich quick spells. That's what I need right now.
If you'd like to, I'll be open for that, but.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I don't want to. I don't want to get into
any trouble or any arrangements.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
No, no, no, I.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Was just thinking, you know, I think we should really
focus on some of our local witches for the month
of October, and I would ask that people who have
stories about witches in their family to please email us
and let us know. We'd love to bring you on
the show and talk about your family witches. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I like that idea, Carmen. We're getting close to the holidays,
and the first holiday I like to celebrate is October
thirty first, But we like to ramp up and do
scary stories. But I think this time would be really
cool if we did focus on which is across America.
First of all, I'm across the world. I have many origins,
but there are so many that are not heard of,
(18:51):
like for instance, in Guadaloupe, Arizona, that everybody knows about
these stories.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I'm serious when I say witches get a bad name
because you know, a lot of times when people humans
don't understand something, they want to put like a bad
term on it, a bad terminology, or they want to
you know, push it out of our society because they
don't get it. And it's that's scary to not understand
something you know, but you think about midwives. Midwives have
(19:20):
also been accused of witchcraft, and midwiffery has been around
forever where a midwife can has been able to save
a woman's life and you know, very traumatic childbirth, and
a doctor couldn't. Instead of just swallowing their pride and saying,
great job, midwife. You know, she must be a witch.
(19:41):
She must she must be practicing dark arts.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, that's the only way that a woman could.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Do something better than a man.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
That's true. I always think about those medieval doctors or
like that witch doctory really freaky looking asked. Do you
know what I'm talking about? The one with them?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
You knows? You know what that was for? No, wasn't
it to keep germs from getting in the mouth or
getting in there? That doctor's mask. Yeah, I think that
was like real primitive germ protection.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
But the fake nos thing, Yeah, I was talking about
the thing. It just looks like it's pointing at like
like a bird or like a crow or like but
it looked really witchy. That's the thing. Like that, That's
where I think any think a witch doctor like that's
the kind of crap. I think they.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Looked like beaks and they were. They were filled with
herbs and sponges and poultices to protect them from the plague,
from infections. They were intended like that. That was how
primitive it was. So they filled those and any germs
would have to go and filter through all of the
herbs and poultices and sponges to get into a person's nose.
(20:52):
So I don't know how well they worked well, you know,
I mean you think about that. Like they also used
to have a big old cone that they would put
in their ear to hear better before hearing aids. You know,
we've come a long way. We've come a long way
for sure. Yeah that's true. Yeah, so you know you
have to go okay, at least they realized that germs
(21:15):
could enter through the face.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah they could. You could breathe it in or I
only take sneeze being sneezed on once to really realize that.
I think, Yeah, that's flatter you know.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah. Could you imagine having vinegar soaked sponges? Yeah all day?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
No, no, no, no, no, that would be awful. That
would just be.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You know, you'd think about this. When doctors were wearing those,
they were also dealing with like gangreen yeah, you know
it doesn't smell good.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
No, I think probably the vinegar would be better. So
maybe I would say just about maybe it was just
to like, you know, if you're visiting somebody's house and
they're sick medieval time, could you imine just give me
like an air pressure.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Could you imagine if they had a mask mandate today
and they made us wear those burd masks, you imagine
how many people would just choose death deal with the vinegar.
But I'm telling you, I would think I'd rather smell
cat poop than dead flesh.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Oh I mean yeah, I mean I can't not.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
The cat poop is pretty, girls, because eventually that's gonna
dry out and go away.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Right, It'll just be like a mummified piece of something.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Yeah, but it takes a lot longer for a body
to decompose fully.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Just put it in an Arizona car, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Oh could you imagine? Oh yeah, yeah, we'll call it
people turkey. Oh yeah, well you're a sick minded girl, jets.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Well, I'll just bringing everything back, bringing everything back come
a full circle now yeah, hey, full circles. Aren't those
witch related?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yes? There you go, very very important symbol m it's
also a very important symbol in Christianity. It's a symbol
of your wedding ring, the circle of life. That's not Christianity,
but that's science.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
No, that's the Lion King.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well, is it the Lion King Science? No.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Earlier in this episode, Carmen and I mentioned the Superstition
Mountains in Arizona and the Witch of Guadalupe. But that's
not the only story that's buried in the Superstition Mountains.
The Superstition Mountains, once named Sierra de la Espuma Foam
Mountains by the Spanish, are famed for their breath taking
(23:43):
desert views, dangerous trails, and rich tapestry of legends. The
Apache people consider them sacred, claiming them as ancestral land.
The mountain range has long been associated with mystery, with
tales like the Lost Dutchman's gold Mine divating adventurers for centuries.
The legend of the Lost Dutchman's gold Mine is said
(24:05):
to be a hidden trove of gold within the mountains.
The legend begins with the Peralta family, who were massacred
by the Apaches in eighteen forty eight after mining gold
in their area. The mine was allegedly concealed by the
apaches to keep outsiders away, and over time, German immigrant
Jacob Walsh, also known as the Dutchmen, became linked to
(24:26):
the legend. Although Walter reportedly found the mine, he took
the location to his grave in eighteen ninety one, sparking
a long and deadly treasure hunt, and despite failed expeditions,
mysterious deaths and disappearances, including the infamous case of Adolph
Ruth in nineteen thirty one. You might want to look
(24:46):
that one up, many continue to seek the mine. Ruth's
body was discovered with bullet wounds, adding to the dark lore.
Other bodies have surfaced over the years, intensifying rumors of
a curse tied to the gold, and visitors alike have
reported paranormal encounters in the mountains, ranging from eerie lights
to ghostly apparitions. Some believe the mountains are cursed, ensuring
(25:10):
that only misfortune awaits those who search for the lost
Dutchman's treasure. The legend persists, fueled by both history and superstition.
Thanks everyone for joining us today on small Town USA.
You want to hear more small Town hit subscribe now
go ahead, I'll wait make sure you check out the
(25:31):
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Speaker 1 (25:43):
Now leaving small Town USA.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Small Town USA is a production of nineteen Media Group.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
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Speaker 3 (26:02):
Thank you for joining us, and come again real soon.
Navigating to small town, USA shool walkers.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
For one, are we chalon? Hi, Jessica hate carbon?
Speaker 3 (00:36):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (00:37):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I'm doing good.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hanging in there, I would say that hanging in.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
There, hanging in that's about all we can do right now.
My yeadusan. It's so fun. Yeah, this is like record
setting temperatures right now. I know, most people are getting
coats for school, and we're like, look, I'm not even
I'm not even wearing a sure, not kidding, I'm wearing
a shirt. It's just hot. It is so hot.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Yeah, yesterday I think it was one hundred and seven
on my car thermometer. Oh my god, it was just crazy.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Yeah. My husband sent me a picture of his thermostat
in his truck. One hundred and thirty six degrees. Oh
my god, right inside the truck, I know. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
you can dehydrate food in that temperature.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, well that's a good plan. Actually, you know, hey,
that is oh my, maybe we could do that while
we're working, Just dehydrate fruit in their cars.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Yes, we'll call it a car jerky. Yeah, how yummy?
Does that sound? Somebody asked me a question recently, and
I didn't realize it was an insult until probably just today.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Oh no, what was that?
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Somebody asked me? Where where witches go to die? Where
am I going to go to die? Basically I just
thought it was like a real question.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
You're not a witch? You're not a witch?
Speaker 3 (02:07):
Or are you?
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Or should I watch it tonight?
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Oh? I don't put spells on people. I've been feeling
really sick, and for a few moments I thought maybe
somebody put a spell on me because it was lasting
for so long.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Yeah, who would do that, though, wouldn't I would never
put a spell on you, Carmen.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
I know. I'm sure there are plenty of people though,
you know what, I don't know. I take that back.
I think there's plenty of people who would want to,
but they know better.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Raw.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Did you ever hear about a local witch here inza.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
In Arizona and which Oh.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
She's pretty famous. Her full name is Maria Concepcion estraa
Miranda and she was the leading practitioner of the occult
in Guadalupe, Arizona. Population eight hundred and fifty So this
is now, yeah, and it still is.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think it's still pretty small.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Yeah, yeah, it's right. Up there with Chloride Arizona. So,
but she is pretty famous. She's been in history books
and there's been many stories written about her, and she's
what a pretty interesting life. There's one rancher in particular
who had some run in.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Yeah, yeah, I did. I found an article of in
nineteen fifty two of the witch's death because he admits
to pretty much wholeheartedly killing Maria because she was a witch.
So the article, just the first part of the article,
I'll just read it because it's kind of shocking when
(03:51):
you think about it. It says a Mesa cattle rancher
and farmer confessed Wednesday that he is Guadalupe's voodoo killer,
guilty of slain he said stemmed from a curse that
blinded his wife eleven years ago.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Joe S.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
Chavez of two hundred and fifty North Wilbur, Mesa told
sheriff and deputies that he shot missus Maria Strada Miranda.
That's how they put it on this article last Friday
in her home on the fringe of Guadalupe in the
Yaqua Indian village about ten miles southeast of Phoenix. Sure
(04:28):
I killed her, he said, blandly. She was a witch.
She sprinkled powder on my wife back in nineteen forty two,
and she started going blind. Doctors, healers and all others
couldn't help her. I spent a lot of money and
traveled many miles trying to get her cured, but it
just got worse. There's no cure but this.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Yeah, I mean there's a backstory though. So in nineteen
twenty nine, his wife inherited the ranch in the Superstition Mountains.
And for anybody who hasn't been in the Superstition Mountains,
they're called that for reason. Yeah. The way the sun sets,
the way the sun rises, and the shadows that are
(05:07):
cast in those mountains are eerie, beautifully eerie. The sounds,
the smells, and it's people often don't realize how how
mountainous the Arizona Train.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Oh yeah, I don't think anybody really knows until you
get close. Like I when thinking about before I moved
to Tucson, I would have thought desert. I would not
have thought you're going to be surrounded by big mountains,
I mean skiable mountains.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
So yeah, yeah, I mean it's there's a lot of
mountains here. It's a it's a really diverse ecosystem. So
the wife of of this farmer, she inherited the land
and her name was was ho the Phena Puebla, So
I'm thinking based on that name, she may have been
(05:57):
a Yacki native. He raised cattle, and he leased some
of his land to other farmers that wanted to graize
their cattle on the land. So they lived a simple life,
you know, which was a normal life back then. Farming
isn't easy in Arizona, Okay, farm farming. Farming isn't easy anywhere,
(06:19):
but yeah, in Arizona, we have extremes.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Har Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
When something happened to his wife, she began having going blind.
She was suffering from like trans like spells where she
would toss her head back. She would complain that her
head was swelling up like a balloon.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could imagine encephalitis.
You know. There's a lot of things that could cause
your head to swell up. None of them are good,
none of them.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
None of them are good reasons for sure.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
For sure, painful and oftentimes deadly. And you think, like
you get enough swelling in your brain that pushes on
your object nerve of course you're going to lose your vision.
So they had no idea, and he had gone to
so many hospitals, Saint Joseph's Hospital in Phoenix, you know,
nobody could say anything. And then finally one of the
yaki told him that his wife had been had been
(07:16):
cursed by the witch. And at first the farmer Joe
just kind of laughed about it. He didn't really believe
it because it seems impractical that you're going to be
haunted or cursed by a witch. But the yaki members
said that he needed to see a Puerto Rican bruha,
which is also another name for a witch or a healer,
(07:39):
and that's really the only person that could give him
a cure. So the farmer did go, and the witch
already knew the case, already knew all about Hotephina's case,
and offered his saber eyes for one hundred dollars, and
he paid on one hundred dollars. You think about that
back then for a farmer, that's a lot. He slipped
back into the hospital with a secret potion that he
(08:01):
got from the witch. He put three drops of it
into a glass of water and then gave it to
his wife. He did the same the next day, and
her sight began to return.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I'm just a little bit last that word. What do
you think was in that potion?
Speaker 3 (08:14):
Well, it's a secret potion for a reason, I can
tell you. I mean, if if they knew, then if
we all knew, it wouldn't be a secret and everybody
could do it. But one day, after all of this happened,
then one day Maria Miranda the witch turned out and
she said she was the one that had cursed.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Oh she admitted it.
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Yeah, and she sneaked into his house, shrieked at ho,
you will never see again, and fled. The next morning,
the wife was blind again.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Oh my god, Okay, it's crazy.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
Yeah. Fruitlessly Joe took his wife to the witch's in
Tucson and no gallis Sonora Cavorca, Mexico. And I mean
he just he just went all over searching for another
curen't find anybody. So finally he had to, you know,
with hat in hand, he went to see Maria. Isn't
(09:14):
Maria a beautiful name? But I love Concepcion too. It's
a really beautiful name. I like that. I like that
her name was Maria.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, because you don't really think of Maria as a
witch name like Helga maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So she what is described as a fly blown parlor,
had a green altar and it's saints pictures. Some were
laid face down, and coins were placed against her lips
to protect Maria's clients from gossip, you know. So Joe
the farmer, Joe went in and he was begging for
a cure, and Maria left. She said that she would
(09:50):
help for his house, an eight thousand dollars house back then,
but when he went back in two weeks, she wanted
his ranch too. He refused anyway, so Maria was like
joking with him and laughing in his face, basically because
he wouldn't give up his land, he wouldn't give up
his house, and she was like, did you bring the
law back with you, like taunting him, and he was
like no. And then he just couldn't give up his
(10:12):
land or his house. Obviously he needed a place to live,
and he just went around tried to seek out other
witches for help. Then finally, finally he came to the
point where we're at your portion of the story, where
he just had it and couldn't bear to see his
wife in pain. Anymore. So he went and bang, bang bang.
(10:33):
She bought her.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
The next part of the article, he shot her five times, right,
He said that I shot her first in the forehead
and she fell over backward. Missus Miranda was found dead,
sprawled in an overturned kitchen chair by her husband, Antonio,
who was fifty five when he arrived home, and Tonio
(10:55):
was held as a suspect for days. Actually and not joke,
because nobody probably knew what was going on, or at
least the deputies didn't. Shaves went on and said, then
I let her have the rest of them. I just
took a six shooter and blasted her five times. Someone
asked why he fired after she fell, and he said,
I just wanted to make sure she was dead. I
(11:16):
guess I was mad. I had a reason to be right.
So the interesting thing about after he shot her was
that Missus Chaves told deputies and newspapers that her eyes
could distinguish between darkening light for the first time since
she was struck blind. So that second time that she
struck blind, obviously that was after Maria got shot and
(11:39):
was killed, she started seeing again. So now all of
a sudden, Missus Chavez has a portion of this article
that says missus Joe S. Chavez, blind eleven years, said
she started seeing again Friday when Missus Maria Estrella Miranda
was shot dead. So interesting that she started regaining her
sight almost immediately after I think so called witch was dead.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
It is interesting. So another interesting fact about this story
is his name was Joe Chavez and his wife's name
was Chavis. They were both Joe Chavas. That's that's cute.
So he actually tried to get off on temporary insanity,
(12:24):
which I would have bought. I mean, if if there's
a person threatening witchcraft and your wife is experiencing this,
and then you have like she after your wife starts
seeing again from witchcraft, and then the witch comes into
your house and says you will never see again, Well,
I think you have to be a bit traumatic if
(12:45):
you're a witch.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
Yeah, I guess so, I guess.
Speaker 3 (12:49):
I don't know. I'm not I think so. I mean,
I think that whiches have a certain flare that they
have to you know, they have a reputation they have
to live up to. Right you ever heard of a
humble witch? Is there any story of No? They have
a reputation, right, so yeah, she was probably shrieking, but
(13:10):
that could have made somebody temporarily insane. He also tried
to plead self defense and had he shot her in
the moment of the streaking, Yeah, maybe he could have,
but they said and they convicted him a secondary murder. Yeah, well, yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
I want to know. I guess I don't know if
there's any facts on why she was cursed in the
first place, like why did the witch place a curse,
Like what was the reasoning behind it? Did she offend
her or I think there's like a land Was it
because of the land.
Speaker 3 (13:47):
You think? Yeah, so I think it was a land
dispute because hot Safina inherited that land in twenty nine,
so she was probably pretty young, you know. I'm sure
that's all she wanted was the house in the land.
She wanted the house in the ranch. So maybe that
that that area had some significant value to her. I mean,
who knows, who knows why somebody would take somebody's sight. Yeah,
(14:10):
and witches be witches, right, they know. Maybe maybe ho
Safina was looking at Miranda's husband. May maybe she wasa Miranda.
You don't mess with Maria's you don't mess with Carmen's
haven't we learned? You know?
Speaker 2 (14:25):
And the other question I have is how did the
other witch know she was cursed, like know about her
name ahead of time all the way in Puerto Rico?
Did you say Puerto Rico?
Speaker 3 (14:38):
She was from Puerto Rico, but she was living in Arizona. Okay, Okay,
So yeah, well I think probably there's you know, when
you have a community of doctors, they kind of know
each other's stuff, and it doesn't take long for word
to get out of a doctor comes up with some
(14:58):
revolutionary cure. So I would imagine there's probably the same
sort of thing going on in witch communities. Yeah, I guess.
And also there wasn't a lot of TV or internet
to distract people back then, So yeah, what are you
gonna do? You're going to try to get in everybody's business.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
That's true when you think about that, But it is,
and it wasn't like that long ago. I mean it
was I mean the fifties. It wasn't like back during
the Salem witch trials, you know what I mean. It's
like here the nineteen fifties.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
For some cultures, you know, healers and this sort of
spiritual witchcraft if you will. I don't know that. I
don't know that all cultures would call them witches. I
think a lot of times they call them healers. Here
where we live in Arizona, there's a lot of that
primitive healing that still occurs here here in our town
(15:50):
in Tucson, but all over the state of Arizona. So
I think when you have cultures that stay close to
their roots, yeah, you know you're going to see that
sort of thing. We have drifted away from our culture
roots because if you look back at the Celtic gods
and you know, there was a lot of what probably
(16:11):
would have been considered witchcraft. Even with vikings, there was
probably stuff that was would be considered witchcraft.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, a lot of Norse, I mean that's basically it's
a paganistic type. Cultures that have a lot of that too,
So like Norse, Greeks.
Speaker 3 (16:27):
And also I think, you know more primitive people who
did not have books or science, right, Oh, yeah, they
had to have relation with the earth and the sky
and the water and the you know, to understand and.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Survive or they didn't have, like you said, necessarily obviously
modern science. They were developing their own science, right, way
and explanations for what they were seeing and different things,
and the reoccurrence of the moon is a real big
It's used in many cultures and amongst like Pagans as
well as religions, you know, huge religions. They still are
(17:06):
looking at the phases of the moon because it does
obviously represent a day and a month, and you know,
so people are able to track time through that, and
women you know, are affected by the moon and the tide.
So it just feels like there's a lot of explanation
for the moon, for the sun, for the stars and
the alignments of things to create that type of hypotheses
(17:31):
that things are all related in that way, and that's
the spiritual aspect comes out. I might just be babbling here,
but I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 3 (17:39):
Yeah, you know, and a lot of that I I understand,
and I can't. I can relate to well put spells
on people, but.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
These don't put any spells on people now less they're
like real good ones. I mean, you got any like
get rich quick spells. That's what I need right now.
If you'd like to, I'll be open for that, but.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
I don't want to. I don't want to get into
any trouble or any arrangements.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
No, no, no, I.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Was just thinking, you know, I think we should really
focus on some of our local witches for the month
of October, and I would ask that people who have
stories about witches in their family to please email us
and let us know. We'd love to bring you on
the show and talk about your family witches. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I like that idea, Carmen. We're getting close to the holidays,
and the first holiday I like to celebrate is October
thirty first, But we like to ramp up and do
scary stories. But I think this time would be really
cool if we did focus on which is across America.
First of all, I'm across the world. I have many origins,
but there are so many that are not heard of,
(18:51):
like for instance, in Guadaloupe, Arizona, that everybody knows about
these stories.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
I'm serious when I say witches get a bad name
because you know, a lot of times when people humans
don't understand something, they want to put like a bad
term on it, a bad terminology, or they want to
you know, push it out of our society because they
don't get it. And it's that's scary to not understand
something you know, but you think about midwives. Midwives have
(19:20):
also been accused of witchcraft, and midwiffery has been around
forever where a midwife can has been able to save
a woman's life and you know, very traumatic childbirth, and
a doctor couldn't. Instead of just swallowing their pride and saying,
great job, midwife. You know, she must be a witch.
(19:41):
She must she must be practicing dark arts.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Yeah, that's the only way that a woman could.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
Do something better than a man.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
That's true. I always think about those medieval doctors or
like that witch doctory really freaky looking asked. Do you
know what I'm talking about? The one with them?
Speaker 3 (20:01):
You knows? You know what that was for? No, wasn't
it to keep germs from getting in the mouth or
getting in there? That doctor's mask. Yeah, I think that
was like real primitive germ protection.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
But the fake nos thing, Yeah, I was talking about
the thing. It just looks like it's pointing at like
like a bird or like a crow or like but
it looked really witchy. That's the thing. Like that, That's
where I think any think a witch doctor like that's
the kind of crap. I think they.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
Looked like beaks and they were. They were filled with
herbs and sponges and poultices to protect them from the plague,
from infections. They were intended like that. That was how
primitive it was. So they filled those and any germs
would have to go and filter through all of the
herbs and poultices and sponges to get into a person's nose.
(20:52):
So I don't know how well they worked well, you know,
I mean you think about that. Like they also used
to have a big old cone that they would put
in their ear to hear better before hearing aids. You know,
we've come a long way. We've come a long way
for sure. Yeah that's true. Yeah, so you know you
have to go okay, at least they realized that germs
(21:15):
could enter through the face.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yeah they could. You could breathe it in or I
only take sneeze being sneezed on once to really realize that.
I think, Yeah, that's flatter you know.
Speaker 3 (21:27):
Yeah. Could you imagine having vinegar soaked sponges? Yeah all day?
Speaker 2 (21:32):
No, no, no, no, no, that would be awful. That
would just be.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
You know, you'd think about this. When doctors were wearing those,
they were also dealing with like gangreen yeah, you know
it doesn't smell good.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
No, I think probably the vinegar would be better. So
maybe I would say just about maybe it was just
to like, you know, if you're visiting somebody's house and
they're sick medieval time, could you imine just give me
like an air pressure.
Speaker 3 (22:03):
Could you imagine if they had a mask mandate today
and they made us wear those burd masks, you imagine
how many people would just choose death deal with the vinegar.
But I'm telling you, I would think I'd rather smell
cat poop than dead flesh.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Oh I mean yeah, I mean I can't not.
Speaker 3 (22:23):
The cat poop is pretty, girls, because eventually that's gonna
dry out and go away.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Right, It'll just be like a mummified piece of something.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
Yeah, but it takes a lot longer for a body
to decompose fully.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Just put it in an Arizona car, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Oh could you imagine? Oh yeah, yeah, we'll call it
people turkey. Oh yeah, well you're a sick minded girl, jets.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
Well, I'll just bringing everything back, bringing everything back come
a full circle now yeah, hey, full circles. Aren't those
witch related?
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yes? There you go, very very important symbol m it's
also a very important symbol in Christianity. It's a symbol
of your wedding ring, the circle of life. That's not Christianity,
but that's science.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
No, that's the Lion King.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Well, is it the Lion King Science? No.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Earlier in this episode, Carmen and I mentioned the Superstition
Mountains in Arizona and the Witch of Guadalupe. But that's
not the only story that's buried in the Superstition Mountains.
The Superstition Mountains, once named Sierra de la Espuma Foam
Mountains by the Spanish, are famed for their breath taking
(23:43):
desert views, dangerous trails, and rich tapestry of legends. The
Apache people consider them sacred, claiming them as ancestral land.
The mountain range has long been associated with mystery, with
tales like the Lost Dutchman's gold Mine divating adventurers for centuries.
The legend of the Lost Dutchman's gold Mine is said
(24:05):
to be a hidden trove of gold within the mountains.
The legend begins with the Peralta family, who were massacred
by the Apaches in eighteen forty eight after mining gold
in their area. The mine was allegedly concealed by the
apaches to keep outsiders away, and over time, German immigrant
Jacob Walsh, also known as the Dutchmen, became linked to
(24:26):
the legend. Although Walter reportedly found the mine, he took
the location to his grave in eighteen ninety one, sparking
a long and deadly treasure hunt, and despite failed expeditions,
mysterious deaths and disappearances, including the infamous case of Adolph
Ruth in nineteen thirty one. You might want to look
(24:46):
that one up, many continue to seek the mine. Ruth's
body was discovered with bullet wounds, adding to the dark lore.
Other bodies have surfaced over the years, intensifying rumors of
a curse tied to the gold, and visitors alike have
reported paranormal encounters in the mountains, ranging from eerie lights
to ghostly apparitions. Some believe the mountains are cursed, ensuring
(25:10):
that only misfortune awaits those who search for the lost
Dutchman's treasure. The legend persists, fueled by both history and superstition.
Thanks everyone for joining us today on small Town USA.
You want to hear more small Town hit subscribe now
go ahead, I'll wait make sure you check out the
(25:31):
links in the description of this podcast for our Twitter
and Instagram accounts. Don't miss your exit, like, share, and
follow us now.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
Now leaving small Town USA.
Speaker 3 (25:48):
Small Town USA is a production of nineteen Media Group.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
If you would like to feature your small town in
an episode or have suggestion for future shows, follow us
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Speaker 3 (26:02):
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