November 21, 2025 • 47 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
A man. We are we are shirt.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh thank you, thank you so much. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I'm well, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm good?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Say more?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Didn't you hear the Democrats once? So we're all saved.
Oh good, everything's good, We're good.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Didn't you hear that I'm a hater for not thinking that?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yeah, someone saying I am a hater, and I sound
someone says a while shit earlier you were on, but
I don't know if you were listening, you know, listen, Jesse.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
No, I mean, I'm part for it. You know, we
can do. I'm happy. I'm happy. Yeah, of course it's
better then.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Of course, you know, so we acknowledge that. But I
don't like it's not driving me today.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Right right, right, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Well this med's hat with the MTA logo peak new York.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It's real. Yeah, I know, it really is.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's peak New York.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
These are the moments that I appreciate when I'm like,
I don't know about you, but I take a special
I feel like at just a special level of.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Appreciation for myself that I know New York.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Like when I can give people directions, I feel like
you're special, Like knowing this city means something.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, it really does. It's funny. Even though New York
I hate so much of what parts of it have become,
It's still new York, like you. Still it's so big
and awesome and weird and also infuriating and crazy correct
and like a fucking capitalist Disneyland in half of it.
(02:05):
But then it's also I don't know, I still love it.
I'll always love it. I mean, I lived there for
a long time. Now I live a bit north of there,
but and I totally agree with like the subways, that's
a that's a point of pride for sure. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
This is a point of pride.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Start just take us there, because when I opened it,
I mean I just assumed it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Like essays or you know, because you.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Be talking and you'd be making sense and you're smart
and you have you know, courage and you have.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Character. So I just was expecting, you.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Know, like the thoughts of Jesse Mechanic in the Times,
and you were like, gotcha, bitch. It's actually all illustrations. Yeah,
which explains this shirt because only an artsy dude I do.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's so funny. I saw this, so I'll tell you
the story my wife would be laughing so hard that
you brought up the shirt. So I was obsessed with
the shirt. This little boutique in Beacon, right near where
I live, had it like in the window, and it's
like a handmade thing, you know. It's like, I, where
are they? I forgot and I wanted it, and I
(03:32):
would never go in because I'm like, it's probably expensive
and I'm not going to be able to afford. But
it wasn't that expensive and it's like my favorite piece
of clothing. I went in and bought it and I
tried to take very good care of it because.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
I'm so glad that I could see that.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, it's just cool and that's such cool details it does.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And that's the same as this book, right thanks. I
was so like immediate, was like, am I not?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Because so my book is coming out on Sunday on
What's what is time?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Time is a flat circle?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
What is time? So my book is coming out on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
And I did illustrations in it as well, and I
feel like that's part like when you do the type
of commentary that folks that you and I do, like
that becomes like very background noise for folks because we're
on a vision, we're on a video medium, you know,
but we don't really necessarily lean into that. And so
(04:40):
before we even get into the actual content of this book,
can you just tell me what made you say this
is the way, this is the direction I want to go.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I wanted to be visual art.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah. I had written several different iterations of the story.
You know, the story is it's about grief and lost,
but it's basically my story of when my mom got
sick and died when I was a kid. And I
had written it because you know, I mostly worked as
a journalist. I'm not a professional illustrator.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
But I got tired.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
But I got to a point in the writing where
I loved where it was, but I knew I had
like another level that I wanted to get to to
fully express what these feelings felt like. I knew that
it was that I hit a limit with the pros,
(05:35):
and I knew that if it had illustrations, it could
reach another level. And I met with some artists and
they were incredible. But what I realized pretty soon after
meeting with them is that all of these images were
like locked and fully detailed in my head and there's
no way that I could describe it to them adequately
(05:57):
enough where they could do the drawings. So since I
had always grown up drawing and love drawing, but like
you know, a lot of times we get older and
we kind of stopped drawing. If you're not doing it,
kids draw all the time, but for some reason, a
lot of adults stop, you know, creating visual art in
that way. So I was like, well, you know what,
I used to be good at drawing, let me try,
(06:20):
uh to do these illustrations. And then as soon as
I started to try, they all just came pouring out.
It was. It was a crazy, like artistic flow experience
where I was like, oh, all of these images were
sitting in my head just waiting for me to start
drawing them. I mean, I had a draft of like
one hundred and forty illustrations in like a month or something.
(06:43):
It was insane, it was, it was, it was wild.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I cannot express to you how dope this is.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I don't even maybe I have to draw a picture.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah, because there's something really special about using art to
get points across in this format, right, because it's kind
of like graphic novelish in a way.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
But like I don't have to read the words, and
I'm moved.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Good. Yeah, you feel me?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Like So I had text sug Jessee yesterday and was like,
I'm going to dive intos, but because I need to
read the words and I read really slow. However, I
didn't even need to read the words to understand and
which I, which I, which I'm getting is the purpose?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Like that's what made you say I got.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
To do the drawings totally. And it's funny because after
I did the drawings, I then went through and cut
out a lot of words. Yeah, because I was like,
this is redundant. Now, let's just really try to get
it down to the bare bones. Yeah, like even.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Stuff like this image right here.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
You know, like I don't even know what you're talking
about yet, but but.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
I think us look at this and feel some type
of way.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, it's funny you say that because some of them,
some of the pages, I didn't have an idea. You know.
It's not like I did little footnotes on what all
the illustrations would be. Hey, I love that sequence. But
then sometimes I'd get to the page and then just say,
you know, this kind of abstract visual representation is to
(08:40):
me what it feels like and then just draw that
and it just kind of worked out.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
How long was this in the works?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It was in the works. So if we're talking from
like the first time that I did a draft without
the illustrations, it's probably like six or seven years since
I did the illustrations, probably two years or so. You know,
it's what it was the publishing industry. I know, like,
you've published through a traditional publisher, Now this one, you're
(09:11):
doing yourself.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Right, Yeah, because I'm just over it. I'm also sing
in general. You should know that I'm just over everything.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Oh, I get it. Yeah, So it was. I pitched
this around to agents and publishers a few years ago.
Some people really liked it, but nope, but they were like, well,
the you know, they just care if they're going to
make money off of Yeah, so they're like, well, I
don't know. The length might be tough to market because
it's not really that long, but it's not.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So that's why I ended up buying my book back.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
That was one of the main reasons because I had
signed a contract for a seventy five thousand word book,
but I wrote one hundred and fifty thousand words and
they were like yeah, you need to cut seventy five
thousand of the words.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
In four days.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
That's crazy. Half and then.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
My editor's edits, So then I'm like scrambling, and I'm
looking for my editors edits to like apply, and then
I and then I'm looking at her edits and it's like, oh,
you're a Zionist.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And you don't like me.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That's a double totally. And it's funny you say that,
because when I pitched this book and another book that
I have coming out in January, I.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Have multiple books coming out.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, the other one you'll like to here. I just
got a copy of it. It's called Don't Be a
Fucking Marshmallow and Illustrated Guide to Revolution, and it's coming
out by uh Interlink Press, which is the Palestinian Yeah,
so that was cool. But I say all that to
say both of those books were rejected, this one and
that one by a whole bunch of people. And there
(10:53):
were but there were a few that were interested, and
it seemed like it was going somewhere. And then it
seemed like once they dove into my journalism and saw
how I covered specific topics, namely Palestine, it was like
radio silence after that now I never got I don't
know for sure. Of course, you know, no one was like,
(11:14):
well it was because of this, because you know this
was in twenty twenty one when I pitched you. So actually, yeah,
so I had illustrations back then. So I'm with COVID
my like, oh yeah, time section of years is so fucked.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
It's someone said to me they saw me do stand
up last year, and I was like, okay, and then
I was.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Like, oh wait, I did do stand up last year.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Less I know it's insane, but what's interesting is then,
you know, October seventh happened. I was writing about it
and speaking out about it again, and then my wife
randomly was like, hey, now you have this like Instagram following,
why don't you just see if like any independent publishers
follow you or any agents, just put it out there
(11:55):
with these books. Again, I did, and then it was
like a whole bunch wanted I had to like decide
for each book who and they were all cool, like radical,
interesting indie publishers that I actually wanted to work with.
They were not big corporate publishers. They believed in the books.
(12:16):
So anyway, I say all that to say, you know,
sometimes it's good to stick to your guns, because I
think both of these books are way better where they
ended up than where they might have if you know,
a big publisher took it on in twenty twenty one
or whatever.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
What do you like about working with a publisher, Well, these.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Are both very small publishers. The Street Noise Books put
out the last time we spoke the book that you have,
and they are just a small, independent, mostly graphic novel,
almost entirely graphic novel publisher based in Brooklyn, and I
like working with her. Liz is the owner, and I
(13:01):
had a great editor, Jusu Kim, because they I just
loved when I met with them, they really believed in it,
They loved it, they got similar to how you're saying,
they just really it resonated with them. And then they
had some great ideas on how to improve it right,
and they were ones that I totally agreed with.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Can you remember any of them?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yes, Well, one was that they wanted the earlier draft.
I feel like I was still holding back a little
bit on like personal struggles, not diving in into the
mental health struggles quite as much, and not telling the
audience like how it felt in certain things. I would
(13:46):
just kind of say what happened, Yes, the editor was great,
where they would be like, but tell us, like what
you were feeling? Do you remember? And that really helped.
And I really think they made the book for you
guys who.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Are listening like that is the only purpose of an
editor in my mind. The only purpose of an editor
is for them to make you tap into parts of
your greatness. You know, your artistry, your brain, your experience
that you may be hiding from or you may not
think anyone cares about, right, because that's how that's a
(14:23):
lot of the times. The thing too, you're like, oh,
I didn't know anyone would want to.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Know that, and exactly, I know. Yeah. I think I
initially wanted it to be like, well, this is about grief,
and they were like, yeah, it is, it's about you
going through it. I think I wanted to like de
center myself a little bit, but they're like, it's about you.
You know, it's about you as a kid and what
it felt like. So, yeah, know, a great editor can
(14:47):
help tremendously a bad one.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So I experienced a great editor and a bad editor
in the same editor.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
So when I did my first books where I have
a lot of illustrations. She was magnificent, to be honest,
Like she was really dope because she helped me as
a first time writer of like such a long project.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
She helped me to.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Like you're talking about, like trim the fat, but then
like know when to like add more and then also
like with the process of how because the other thing
a lot of folks don't know about is the process
of book publishing is very willy nilly, like.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Like sometimes they're like when you need it in six weeks.
Sometimes they're like, okay, so it'll be two years.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, you know, like the and depending.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
On where you're publishing, these timelines are different. A smaller
place has the ability to do things faster. A bigger
place you're fitting into like their marketing vision of pism.
So like I was on Abrams, which is a smaller
place for small doses, and then I and then my
(16:01):
editor went to Simon and Schuster and so she was like,
you know, I want you to come over here, and.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So I pitched a couple books, but I never if.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I'm being real, I wasn't really into them. I was
just like, whatever, and then I was like, no, it's
memoir time. I'll write a midlife memoir. And it was
interesting to see how her editing had shifted. She made
me a better writer in small doses, one thousand percent,
she made me a better writer.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
She helped me. I'm the opposite where you were like
not explaining. I was over explaining.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
It was like.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
What are you saying?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
And then in this book though, and this is I'm
giving this advice to people because I know a lot
of people want to make things and they are not
sure who to listen to.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So like, if you have somebody who was questioning question my.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Artistic choices, I don't know if question is the right word,
but like, I like being asked with curiosity, like why
are we doing this right, because then you get the
opportunity to explain, and it's not being asked in like doubt.
It's being asked in curiosity as like a partnership versus
this editor literally started questioning my life choices.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Really.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
One of the notes was it feels like you're blaming
your eggs.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Okay, I am yeah, I mean I guess, you know,
it depends on what the book is and if the
editor is a good fit for that.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
It depends.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I think people change that too. That's definitely about.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
How much the world has shifted from twenty eighteen when
I started small doses to now.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's like almost unfathomable to think about how much it's changed.
It's really wild. How many people have you?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Have you lost friendships? Have you lost connections to family
in that time?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, I mean I've looked I mean, my God, because
they're Jewish. Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean, well that's an
interesting like I haven't I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Sure that there are people who I'm like a lot
of people who I was peripherally acquainted with, who like
want nothing to do with me anymore. But honestly, I've
been very lucky in that most of the people close
to me, they might not completely agree with everything, but
(18:38):
they're not. I don't have anyone who's like extremely on
the other side by any significant degree. I have a
few people that were more and are not anymore, which
is fascinating too, And that's been it's been a tough
thing for me to have patience with some people. But
(19:00):
you know, I've been doing this like work for a
while in many different areas, and like, if you want
to build movements and get people behind stuff. You do
have to try to bring people in and have a
little patience. But it's it's easier said than done sometimes.
But oh no, I get that, and I mean, yeah,
(19:24):
I am too.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And by the way, I just noticed that the underside
of the collar is pink.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's uh, it's tough.
You know, you try to, especially when people are making
a genuine effort with stuff, you try to be patient.
(19:51):
I don't know, but there's definitely been you know, like
if we're talking in terms of like Palestine, the people
who were just like, oh, like and the starvation started
to get extreme, they were like, all right, enough is enough,
and then they flipped the switch. I was like, okay,
this is good. But also like they were blowing up
tens of thousands of children and you just like didn't
(20:14):
care at all about that. It's just and one thing
that annoyed me is the people who clearly didn't like
it and wanted to speak out but were too cowardly,
because I could tell from some people that they were
like specifically being silent until it kind of beached the point. Yeah,
(20:34):
when more mainstream people were and then they were like, Okay,
now it's safe, and that that annoyed me, even though
I should be like, well, it's good, and.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So I think you can do both.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I think you can do you can do both.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You don't do both because you're right, they're real, genuine
feelings like and you know, we're humans, were complex.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I can be like glad you got here, but also
for route.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, and it's also like next time where there's something
else like this, exactly, you don't take the brave choice.
Don't just yeah, don't be sitting there like oh, I
don't know, and listen, I understand, like I'm not even
talking about you know. I do think some people have
gotten into the habit of they they view like all
(21:23):
activism through social media.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Go ahead, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Like they're like, oh, well this person didn't speak out
on this thing, And I'm like, well, that person doesn't
really post online. But I've seen them like at protests
and organizing mutual aids, So like maybe we shouldn't just
be like, well, this person didn't post on Instagram, so
they're not part of the movement. Like there's a real movement.
(21:49):
It's not the internet too. And some people who are
like the most vocal on Instagram or wherever, haven't done
anything outside of that. Now it's like it's cool, Like
I would I wish more people would speak up, of course,
and social media is important, but also I just see
some people like their whole thing is just calling people
(22:10):
out because they didn't speak out. And I'm like, you don't,
you don't know this person. You're just judging their online things.
And I get it. I totally get it. If it's
someone who like that's what they post about human rights
and stuff, yes, and politics and they post all the time.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Then like Trevor Noah made an entire career out of
being a person who's supposed to be explaining the truth trans.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And then he just was radian.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Did he liked he was like radio silent about it.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And he grew up in South African apartheid.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's wild, he said, like a.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Couple things when Tanahase Coats was on his show, But
that was like a year and a half, and you know,
like it's just a very like to me to your point,
it's different if that's your jazz and then you put
the instrument down, Oh.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Then you should be called out relentlessly for sure. I
mean that's ridiculous. I mean I've I've definitely lost respect
for tons of people. Uh, Like I was, I was
looking at people and I was like, if you're really
gonna ignore this, Like, I just I have no respect
for the way you synthesize, pull it up, the information
and put it out into the world.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Agree.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I just that as a black person in the United States,
I watched this happen in a really deleterious way because
it also meant that you can't hold like Kamala Harris
or Hakeing Jeffries or Corey Booker to account for Palestine
without there being some type of like counterproductive but without
(23:49):
it being attacked as like a counterproductive measure to like
black liberation in the United States.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And so that became like this.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Whole other layer where it was like, not only are
these people quiet, but you need to allow them to
be quiet because if you don't, then you're the problem.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And it's like that's weird to me.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That is weird. Yeah, that yeah, I mean yeah, I
got a bunch of that too, for criticizing Booker and
Kamala and all of that, And it's like, I don't
this has nothing first of all, Corey Booker and Kamala
Harrison not for black liberation. They're black people, in what
(24:37):
way are they? Kamala posted yesterday this glowing obituary to
Dick Cheney like I don't, I'm sorry, please. The Booker
can talk for a long time about a whole bunch
of things, and then you know, vote to drop bombs
on Gaza and be you know, posing with Netahu and
(24:58):
and and he.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Voted for Jared Kushner's dad, who's not even an ex con.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
He's a con con like he was partying. It was
pardoned by a con man.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
That's a double con. So you know, I feel like
when I so and I'm somebody who does a lot
that I don't put on Instagram, like.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
It's always weird to me.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So like, I'm working with this church around my way
to do a Turkey drive and.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
My homegirl was like, why isn't your face on the poster?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
And I was on the flyer and I was like,
I mean why, it's for tacades and she was like,
put your face on the freakin' flyer.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
So I was like, okay, fine, so I do.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
And then everyone who I had sent the flyer to
I sent them another updated copy with the version of
my face, and because at that point I only send
it to like six people, do you know, every single
one of them was like, oh, much.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Better, much better, and I was like really.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
And so people will often say a man of Seals
doesn't do anything but sit up here on this internet.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
But also, by the way.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Y'all, there's a lot of other time in the day.
This is the turkey flyer. Yay turkey.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Oh, I'm just speaking in Hey.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Y'all, send some turkeys.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But there's a lot of time in the day, and
I just feel like it's weird to I don't know,
maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't. I don't advertise
the things that I do, and people are like, well, so,
someone who's very close in my circle recently said, I
understand why you don't.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
However, you're in a space that requires that.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
So is it counterproductive for you to be in that
space and not doing the thing or are you preserving
yourself in that space? And I haven't come up with
an answer.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah. Interesting, Yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It feels weird to me to tell y'all every time
I do, because I do all the time. So it
feels weird to me to be like, guess what like to.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I know, it almost feels like it cheapens it too, like,
but I understand the other side too, like it's good
to get yourself out there like that and raise that stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, and then then maybe you inspire.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I mean, it's a kind of damned if you don't,
if you'd zone, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, I'll let you know.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
What I come up with.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
You See, you'll start to see posts You'll be like, well,
I guess I guess you sucked. So you have people
in the chat that are like, do it, you know,
and I'm just like uncomfortable every time because sometimes you
do stuff with other folks and like they'll post about
it and then you know, they're like.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Can you collab?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
And I'm like, okay, yeah, so tell me about Yeah,
with this project, by the end of it, where how
were you different than where you started?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah? Good question. Uh Man. There were a lot of
moments throughout the book that were There were even moments
where and it only happened really with drawing, not with
the writing portion. Whereas I would be drawing something, it
would kind of unlock a memory that was hid in somewhere,
because you know, my mom got sick when I was twelve.
(29:05):
She passed away when I was fourteen, So like, if
you think back, that's a you know, you don't remember
that much like in great detail of when you were twelve.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
You know, you remember kind of flashes.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Shape, yeah, exactly, you don't have defined memories, but during
the process a bunch of them came back. And then
there were also interesting moments where as I would be
drawing a page, I would be into the drawing of
it and trying to make it look good, and then
when it was done, I would look at it and
(29:40):
have like a very emotional reaction, especially like there's a
few pages where I draw my mom, you know, based
on photographs and stuff that I had, and then after
you know, tweaking it and being like the nose that
you know, cause you're into like the nitty gritty of
getting it right. And then I would be done and
look at it and be like, WHOA, that hits hard.
(30:02):
And it was also interesting because throughout the process I
became a parent, and I write about it a bit
towards the end, and that shifted kind of the entire
grief experience because then I saw it more because even
though I of course felt horrible for my mother for
(30:25):
having to have gone through all that, you're still a
kid and you center yourself in that you know you
can't help but do that. But then when you grow
up and become a parent and care for your kids
this much, then you kind of experience it again where
you're like, oh, my god, that must have been so devastating. First. Yeah,
(30:48):
so that was tough and still is tough. I mean
I think about it all the time, like, because my
sister is younger than me. She was only six when
my mom passed away, and like my daughter just turned six,
so it's like, so that stuff is tough. So basically, yeah,
(31:09):
well not currently, but have been and yeah, but the
book was definitely a therapeutic exercise and interesting exploration of grief.
And you know, I write in there a bit about
like O c D and really bad intrusive thoughts that
(31:29):
I had for years following it and still have. They
still pop up, but writing about them, and it's funny
because that's the part of the book. I have like
this squiggly kind of monster person that yeah, right, amazing. Yeah,
so that guy kind of personifies this like horrible voice
(31:54):
in my head. Yeah, yeah, you'd like it too. A
few pages later, me and the horrible doppelganger in my
head a bond over Wu tang and there's a little
sign that says, I bomb atomically, and it's like him
and I thinking of the same thing. So that's another
(32:14):
part of the book, like how art and music and
all that stuff really helped me get through all of that.
So yeah, it was an interesting cathartic experience, and it
also taught me to just like getting it done and
getting it published and the fact that it's resonating and
people like it was also affirming, where it's like, you know,
(32:38):
because I put it out there and no one really
wanted it initially, and it's nice, like cause you were
speaking earlier about sometimes an editor will make things better
and sometimes you kind of have to stick to your
guns if you like something and you want it to
be the way it is. And I wanted this to
be like this and it came out like that. Oh good,
(33:00):
So it's it was also a bit reaffirming to stick
to your guns in that way.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Did Scott just left my mind?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
What is do you have any particular drawings in here
that like because.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
We always have like our favorite, like.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah, our one switches.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Okay, so what's it today?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
What's my favorite today? I mean the first one that
I loved was this drawing of my mom with all
these flowers around her, because that one took me a
long time because I am not someone who can like
look at someone's face and draw it. It takes takes
me effort. I could do it more as like a
(33:46):
cartoon yeah ish thing, but this was more of like
a realistic portrait drawing, and it's an important one, so
I wanted it to look good. So that one I
spent a long time on. And then there's this other
one that I love because it has a lot of
detail where it's my dad. Yeah. Well no, that's a
(34:06):
different one. Okay, there's there's an earlier one that's like
the one when she was sick, but there's one when
she was healthy, probably like page thirty or something.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Because I see the one with your dad and the
flowers too, and the the yellow sports walkman or.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Is that you?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah you?
Speaker 1 (34:28):
That's you? Yeahs y'all?
Speaker 3 (34:32):
The yellow Sony sports walkman was that was really the shit.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
It's funny because I loved, like just taking a picture
of that and putting it and then drawing it. I
actually loved doing that, like I love drawing objects. Yes,
that one, that one, Yeah, that one took me a
long time and I drew all the flowers and yeah.
And then there's there's this other one where it's my
(35:00):
dad telling me that she's not my mom isn't gonna
make it, and it's like this picture of us, and
then it's a version of me falling. And then I
made it all like an engagement ring and it has
like my dad proposing on one side and then being
alone on the other side. There's like a lot of
detail to it. It's probably shortly after the flower page.
(35:27):
It's like a loan on its own page. And that one.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Did you know that your brain was like this.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Before you head that, Oh, because this is other this
is some other shit, Jessie, Like this is this?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Did I know like all this wild art would come out?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Wild art is very generous.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
I mean, it's like, I mean, very generic, Like this
is like you just described your dad telling you about
your mom not making it and you falling into an
engagement ring.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Like I'm just like, yeah, that is a that's so nonlinear.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
And so my question is, like I guess what I'm
trying to say is did you see the images in
your mind first?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Sometimes and sometimes I would be drawing them and they
would just evolve in a certain way, Like I think
with that one such a level.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Of freedom that you have to allow yourself to do that.
Would you agree?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Definitely? Definitely? Yeah, that's what I mean to say.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Were you always like that? Would you?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Were you always in a space where you would let
yourself be free enough to just go with it?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
No? Probably, not always. This was a time where I
really did let it fly more than others. For sure. Yeah,
there it is.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
And hypothesis can't to find who I'll be dropping these
mockeries literally perform robbery.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
To me, that's like a son. It's funny because I did.
I did an event with do you know Joel Leone,
uh the right, he's great. I did an event with
him in Brooklyn for the book, and he brought up
that verse and we were just talking about that verse.
And now like everyone who knows knows that verse, Like
(37:30):
it's funny. It's a thing.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
It's a thing, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
I was leaving the y m c A the other
day and his brother was coming in and.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
He had on a Wu Tang hoodie and.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I was like so and he was like hold on,
and he like adjusted the things he was carrying so
he could be like.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
That's sick. I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, where can people go?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
I mean it's it's in all book places, right, so
it's where.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Was your fir? I mean with that book, I've been
directing people towards bookshop dot org or you know, your
local bookshop, tell them to order it. That's probably my favorite,
you know, and look out for you know, this one.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
So that was gonna be my next question about this one.
So this is also in the graphic novel style.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
It is. Yeah, So what this book is is it's like,
I I realize that a lot of people like to
share quotes but don't really know what the people who
said the quotes did or don't really examine what the
quotes mean. So in this book, I was like, well,
I'm gonna use quotes from like Delora Suerte, James bald
(38:46):
when Fanny Louhamer, Edward SAYI, Chomsky, all these people, and
I'm going to be like, this is what they said, Like,
this is what they mean, this is what they did
kind of thing. Yea, yeah, so that was kind of
the the impetus behind the whole idea for it. So
that's kind of how it goes. And it's basically just,
(39:07):
you know, don't be a marshmallow is a quote from
Delores Suerta, you know, the famous labor activist, when she
was basically like, I think it's don't be a marshmallow,
get off the sidewalk, walk the street with us. In
the history and it's about like, you know, her and
Chavez like really caused the massive disruption with their grape boycott,
(39:28):
and so I write about that, and then they you know,
they changed lives, like they had a collective bargaining agreement
for migrant farm workers and all that, and you know,
Fanny Lohamer said a lot of incredible things and fought
an unbelievable amount of violence towards her and changed the
way delegates were chosen. And some of the other parts
(39:49):
are just like, you know, this thinker said this. So
here's how you could apply this now or I have
like a chapter on you know, the Black Panthers. How
I'm like, you could like what we were talking about.
You know, you can think local, you can help people,
like the Black Panthers are being hunted by Cointel Pro
and they were still able to do the free breakfast
(40:10):
or children and the free healthcare during all that, So
like you can help people and make a difference despite
the insanity that's going on. So and yes, and it's illustrations.
It's it's similar to that one.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Well, that is what I'm going to ask.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Do you feel well, first of all, you are now
a professional illustrator.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
I guess, so.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Do you feel like this is the medium for you
in writing books?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
I don't know. I'm sure I will always probably put
out these types of books. But it's interesting. I have
like this and it's funny. I was just going back
and I was on your Small Doses podcast a while ago.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
And it's literally like side effects of being a white boy,
isn't it something like that?
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, being like a something like that. Yeah, so funny.
But yeah. Then I spoke about a book that I've
been working on for so many years, which is like
this long wild novel. It's super long, and I initially
pitched that and people were like, this is cool, but
(41:20):
like it's five hundred pages, so like yeah, and they're like,
you're there like nobody's going to publish like your first
novel at five hundred pages. But what's interesting about it
is I had always wanted that book because it goes
through these multiple storylines, and one of them is like
a sci fi space story. There's a lot of like
(41:42):
political allegory. It's a super ambitious Hopefully it'll be on
shelves eventually.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
But what I wanted a space story. You had me there, I.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Know, I know, yeah, yeah, So what I wanted was this,
maybe even two long books where part is regular pros
and and another is kind of like a comic and
you're going through it and it rotates. But the thing
is like, I can do this type of illustrating. But
(42:11):
what I did realize, and this is important to know,
our limitations too. I can't do like a full comic
with like action and people moving and fighting like that
takes a lot of training and just I don't my
brain doesn't work that way. However, I did find an artist,
(42:32):
and this is interesting because this can happen too. He
read the book and he's like, I'm just going to
sketch out some of these creatures and some of the
things that you would want in comic form and see
what you think. And with that book, I was like, oh,
he not only nailed what was in my head, he
actually made it better. So like with these kind of
(42:54):
really super personal books, maybe I will continue to illustrate them,
got them some other ones. But yes, long with did
answer to your question, I do love having a visual
component in the books.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
I think that because we I feel like we're in
a We're in such a time of change and shift,
and one of the things that has changed and shifted
is people's ability to really take in information, particularly concepts,
and so like in in transforming my One Woman Show
to the text, I realized that I feel like my
(43:31):
book what would the Ancestors Say? Reads like a high
vibrational Instagram scroll because the content is very compact, Like
it's very like the things that I'm talking about are
presented to you in a dense fashion, but over the
course of many different formats. So you get a monologue,
you get a lecture, you get like something that looks
like written stand up, you get dialogue, you get.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Poetry.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
So I feel like it feels like you're scrolling because
we get these videos that are like three minutes of
just straight to your neck socialism, right, and then you're
onto the next video and it's like someone dancing to
whatever in information these days. So I'm excited to see
(44:21):
more work. I love your art and I love your
point of view, so to see it in art is great.
And everybody get your local bookshop to order Jesse Mechanic's book.
The last time we spoke a story of loss, and
(44:41):
you know, I just think it's also coming out at
such a great time where there is no more struggler
strife in the world because.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Now everybody can own it, right.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
It's true. Yeah, thank you, looky, thank you, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
And I'm serious. I am going to come up and
visit you. You think I was playing, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Please do, please do.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And we're going to go to that store and see
if they have any more of those shirts.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Safety have a lot of cool stuff that I also
want to buy. The other day.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
I love it, y'all. A question before we go, It
was a question, mister Mechanic. Any children's books plans.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, fantastic question. And I would love to do a
children's book. And my wife is a special education teacher
and I would love to do one with her because
I feel like I could come up with like a
broad idea and she could make it great, and then
I could do the illustrations. That's a great question. I
(45:42):
would love to do a children's book.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
Well, I am starting a children's show next Oh's Radical
Readers Rob Readers, and every episode raw Rab will do
a book report about a children's book that she considers
radical and also sing a song that she will compose,
(46:08):
and she will also speak to the creators of these books.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Wow, so it's like a reading rainbow.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
But like with teeth, that'll be great.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Jesse, stay up and stay drying, happy to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Have a good one. And then
A man. We are we are shirt.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Oh thank you, thank you so much. How are you?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
I'm well, how are you doing?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I'm good?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Say more?
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Didn't you hear the Democrats once? So we're all saved.
Oh good, everything's good, We're good.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Didn't you hear that I'm a hater for not thinking that?
Speaker 3 (00:44):
Yeah, someone saying I am a hater, and I sound
someone says a while shit earlier you were on, but
I don't know if you were listening, you know, listen, Jesse.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
No, I mean, I'm part for it. You know, we
can do. I'm happy. I'm happy. Yeah, of course it's
better then.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Of course, you know, so we acknowledge that. But I
don't like it's not driving me today.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Right right, right, yep.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
Well this med's hat with the MTA logo peak new York.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
It's real. Yeah, I know, it really is.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
It's peak New York.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
These are the moments that I appreciate when I'm like,
I don't know about you, but I take a special
I feel like at just a special level of.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Appreciation for myself that I know New York.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Like when I can give people directions, I feel like
you're special, Like knowing this city means something.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Yeah, it really does. It's funny. Even though New York
I hate so much of what parts of it have become,
It's still new York, like you. Still it's so big
and awesome and weird and also infuriating and crazy correct
and like a fucking capitalist Disneyland in half of it.
(02:05):
But then it's also I don't know, I still love it.
I'll always love it. I mean, I lived there for
a long time. Now I live a bit north of there,
but and I totally agree with like the subways, that's
a that's a point of pride for sure. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
This is a point of pride.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
Start just take us there, because when I opened it,
I mean I just assumed it was going to be.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Like essays or you know, because you.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Be talking and you'd be making sense and you're smart
and you have you know, courage and you have.
Speaker 1 (02:47):
Character. So I just was expecting, you.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
Know, like the thoughts of Jesse Mechanic in the Times,
and you were like, gotcha, bitch. It's actually all illustrations. Yeah,
which explains this shirt because only an artsy dude I do.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
It's so funny. I saw this, so I'll tell you
the story my wife would be laughing so hard that
you brought up the shirt. So I was obsessed with
the shirt. This little boutique in Beacon, right near where
I live, had it like in the window, and it's
like a handmade thing, you know. It's like, I, where
are they? I forgot and I wanted it, and I
(03:32):
would never go in because I'm like, it's probably expensive
and I'm not going to be able to afford. But
it wasn't that expensive and it's like my favorite piece
of clothing. I went in and bought it and I
tried to take very good care of it because.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
I'm so glad that I could see that.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah, it's just cool and that's such cool details it does.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
And that's the same as this book, right thanks. I
was so like immediate, was like, am I not?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Because so my book is coming out on Sunday on
What's what is time?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Time is a flat circle?
Speaker 1 (04:14):
What is time? So my book is coming out on Saturday.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
And I did illustrations in it as well, and I
feel like that's part like when you do the type
of commentary that folks that you and I do, like
that becomes like very background noise for folks because we're
on a vision, we're on a video medium, you know,
but we don't really necessarily lean into that. And so
(04:40):
before we even get into the actual content of this book,
can you just tell me what made you say this
is the way, this is the direction I want to go.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I wanted to be visual art.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah. I had written several different iterations of the story.
You know, the story is it's about grief and lost,
but it's basically my story of when my mom got
sick and died when I was a kid. And I
had written it because you know, I mostly worked as
a journalist. I'm not a professional illustrator.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
But I got tired.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
But I got to a point in the writing where
I loved where it was, but I knew I had
like another level that I wanted to get to to
fully express what these feelings felt like. I knew that
it was that I hit a limit with the pros,
(05:35):
and I knew that if it had illustrations, it could
reach another level. And I met with some artists and
they were incredible. But what I realized pretty soon after
meeting with them is that all of these images were
like locked and fully detailed in my head and there's
no way that I could describe it to them adequately
(05:57):
enough where they could do the drawings. So since I
had always grown up drawing and love drawing, but like
you know, a lot of times we get older and
we kind of stopped drawing. If you're not doing it,
kids draw all the time, but for some reason, a
lot of adults stop, you know, creating visual art in
that way. So I was like, well, you know what,
I used to be good at drawing, let me try,
(06:20):
uh to do these illustrations. And then as soon as
I started to try, they all just came pouring out.
It was. It was a crazy, like artistic flow experience
where I was like, oh, all of these images were
sitting in my head just waiting for me to start
drawing them. I mean, I had a draft of like
one hundred and forty illustrations in like a month or something.
(06:43):
It was insane, it was, it was, it was wild.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
I cannot express to you how dope this is.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
I don't even maybe I have to draw a picture.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Yeah, because there's something really special about using art to
get points across in this format, right, because it's kind
of like graphic novelish in a way.
Speaker 1 (07:16):
But like I don't have to read the words, and
I'm moved.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
Good. Yeah, you feel me?
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Like So I had text sug Jessee yesterday and was like,
I'm going to dive intos, but because I need to
read the words and I read really slow. However, I
didn't even need to read the words to understand and
which I, which I, which I'm getting is the purpose?
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Like that's what made you say I got.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
To do the drawings totally. And it's funny because after
I did the drawings, I then went through and cut
out a lot of words. Yeah, because I was like,
this is redundant. Now, let's just really try to get
it down to the bare bones. Yeah, like even.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Stuff like this image right here.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
You know, like I don't even know what you're talking
about yet, but but.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
I think us look at this and feel some type
of way.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, it's funny you say that because some of them,
some of the pages, I didn't have an idea. You know.
It's not like I did little footnotes on what all
the illustrations would be. Hey, I love that sequence. But
then sometimes I'd get to the page and then just say,
you know, this kind of abstract visual representation is to
(08:40):
me what it feels like and then just draw that
and it just kind of worked out.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
How long was this in the works?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
It was in the works. So if we're talking from
like the first time that I did a draft without
the illustrations, it's probably like six or seven years since
I did the illustrations, probably two years or so. You know,
it's what it was the publishing industry. I know, like,
you've published through a traditional publisher, Now this one, you're
(09:11):
doing yourself.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Right, Yeah, because I'm just over it. I'm also sing
in general. You should know that I'm just over everything.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Oh, I get it. Yeah, So it was. I pitched
this around to agents and publishers a few years ago.
Some people really liked it, but nope, but they were like, well,
the you know, they just care if they're going to
make money off of Yeah, so they're like, well, I
don't know. The length might be tough to market because
it's not really that long, but it's not.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So that's why I ended up buying my book back.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
That was one of the main reasons because I had
signed a contract for a seventy five thousand word book,
but I wrote one hundred and fifty thousand words and
they were like yeah, you need to cut seventy five
thousand of the words.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
In four days.
Speaker 2 (09:57):
That's crazy. Half and then.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
My editor's edits, So then I'm like scrambling, and I'm
looking for my editors edits to like apply, and then
I and then I'm looking at her edits and it's like, oh,
you're a Zionist.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
And you don't like me.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That's a double totally. And it's funny you say that,
because when I pitched this book and another book that
I have coming out in January, I.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Have multiple books coming out.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, the other one you'll like to here. I just
got a copy of it. It's called Don't Be a
Fucking Marshmallow and Illustrated Guide to Revolution, and it's coming
out by uh Interlink Press, which is the Palestinian Yeah,
so that was cool. But I say all that to
say both of those books were rejected, this one and
that one by a whole bunch of people. And there
(10:53):
were but there were a few that were interested, and
it seemed like it was going somewhere. And then it
seemed like once they dove into my journalism and saw
how I covered specific topics, namely Palestine, it was like
radio silence after that now I never got I don't
know for sure. Of course, you know, no one was like,
(11:14):
well it was because of this, because you know this
was in twenty twenty one when I pitched you. So actually, yeah,
so I had illustrations back then. So I'm with COVID
my like, oh yeah, time section of years is so fucked.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
It's someone said to me they saw me do stand
up last year, and I was like, okay, and then
I was.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
Like, oh wait, I did do stand up last year.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Less I know it's insane, but what's interesting is then,
you know, October seventh happened. I was writing about it
and speaking out about it again, and then my wife
randomly was like, hey, now you have this like Instagram following,
why don't you just see if like any independent publishers
follow you or any agents, just put it out there
(11:55):
with these books. Again, I did, and then it was
like a whole bunch wanted I had to like decide
for each book who and they were all cool, like radical,
interesting indie publishers that I actually wanted to work with.
They were not big corporate publishers. They believed in the books.
(12:16):
So anyway, I say all that to say, you know,
sometimes it's good to stick to your guns, because I
think both of these books are way better where they
ended up than where they might have if you know,
a big publisher took it on in twenty twenty one
or whatever.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
What do you like about working with a publisher, Well, these.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Are both very small publishers. The Street Noise Books put
out the last time we spoke the book that you have,
and they are just a small, independent, mostly graphic novel,
almost entirely graphic novel publisher based in Brooklyn, and I
like working with her. Liz is the owner, and I
(13:01):
had a great editor, Jusu Kim, because they I just
loved when I met with them, they really believed in it,
They loved it, they got similar to how you're saying,
they just really it resonated with them. And then they
had some great ideas on how to improve it right,
and they were ones that I totally agreed with.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
Can you remember any of them?
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yes, Well, one was that they wanted the earlier draft.
I feel like I was still holding back a little
bit on like personal struggles, not diving in into the
mental health struggles quite as much, and not telling the
audience like how it felt in certain things. I would
(13:46):
just kind of say what happened, Yes, the editor was great,
where they would be like, but tell us, like what
you were feeling? Do you remember? And that really helped.
And I really think they made the book for you
guys who.
Speaker 3 (14:01):
Are listening like that is the only purpose of an
editor in my mind. The only purpose of an editor
is for them to make you tap into parts of
your greatness. You know, your artistry, your brain, your experience
that you may be hiding from or you may not
think anyone cares about, right, because that's how that's a
(14:23):
lot of the times. The thing too, you're like, oh,
I didn't know anyone would want to.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Know that, and exactly, I know. Yeah. I think I
initially wanted it to be like, well, this is about grief,
and they were like, yeah, it is, it's about you
going through it. I think I wanted to like de
center myself a little bit, but they're like, it's about you.
You know, it's about you as a kid and what
it felt like. So, yeah, know, a great editor can
(14:47):
help tremendously a bad one.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So I experienced a great editor and a bad editor
in the same editor.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
So when I did my first books where I have
a lot of illustrations. She was magnificent, to be honest,
Like she was really dope because she helped me as
a first time writer of like such a long project.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
She helped me to.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
Like you're talking about, like trim the fat, but then
like know when to like add more and then also
like with the process of how because the other thing
a lot of folks don't know about is the process
of book publishing is very willy nilly, like.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
It's it's crazy.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
It's crazy.
Speaker 3 (15:33):
Like sometimes they're like when you need it in six weeks.
Sometimes they're like, okay, so it'll be two years.
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Yeah, you know, like the and depending.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
On where you're publishing, these timelines are different. A smaller
place has the ability to do things faster. A bigger
place you're fitting into like their marketing vision of pism.
So like I was on Abrams, which is a smaller
place for small doses, and then I and then my
(16:01):
editor went to Simon and Schuster and so she was like,
you know, I want you to come over here, and.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So I pitched a couple books, but I never if.
Speaker 3 (16:08):
I'm being real, I wasn't really into them. I was
just like, whatever, and then I was like, no, it's
memoir time. I'll write a midlife memoir. And it was
interesting to see how her editing had shifted. She made
me a better writer in small doses, one thousand percent,
she made me a better writer.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
She helped me. I'm the opposite where you were like
not explaining. I was over explaining.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
It was like.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
What are you saying?
Speaker 3 (16:35):
And then in this book though, and this is I'm
giving this advice to people because I know a lot
of people want to make things and they are not
sure who to listen to.
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So like, if you have somebody who was questioning question my.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Artistic choices, I don't know if question is the right word,
but like, I like being asked with curiosity, like why
are we doing this right, because then you get the
opportunity to explain, and it's not being asked in like doubt.
It's being asked in curiosity as like a partnership versus
this editor literally started questioning my life choices.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Really.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
One of the notes was it feels like you're blaming
your eggs.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Okay, I am yeah, I mean I guess, you know,
it depends on what the book is and if the
editor is a good fit for that.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
It depends.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I think people change that too. That's definitely about.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
How much the world has shifted from twenty eighteen when
I started small doses to now.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
It's like almost unfathomable to think about how much it's changed.
It's really wild. How many people have you?
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Have you lost friendships? Have you lost connections to family
in that time?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Yeah, I mean I've looked I mean, my God, because
they're Jewish. Yeah yeah, yeah, I mean, well that's an
interesting like I haven't I'm.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Sure that there are people who I'm like a lot
of people who I was peripherally acquainted with, who like
want nothing to do with me anymore. But honestly, I've
been very lucky in that most of the people close
to me, they might not completely agree with everything, but
(18:38):
they're not. I don't have anyone who's like extremely on
the other side by any significant degree. I have a
few people that were more and are not anymore, which
is fascinating too, And that's been it's been a tough
thing for me to have patience with some people. But
(19:00):
you know, I've been doing this like work for a
while in many different areas, and like, if you want
to build movements and get people behind stuff. You do
have to try to bring people in and have a
little patience. But it's it's easier said than done sometimes.
But oh no, I get that, and I mean, yeah,
(19:24):
I am too.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
And by the way, I just noticed that the underside
of the collar is pink.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. It's uh, it's tough.
You know, you try to, especially when people are making
a genuine effort with stuff, you try to be patient.
(19:51):
I don't know, but there's definitely been you know, like
if we're talking in terms of like Palestine, the people
who were just like, oh, like and the starvation started
to get extreme, they were like, all right, enough is enough,
and then they flipped the switch. I was like, okay,
this is good. But also like they were blowing up
tens of thousands of children and you just like didn't
(20:14):
care at all about that. It's just and one thing
that annoyed me is the people who clearly didn't like
it and wanted to speak out but were too cowardly,
because I could tell from some people that they were
like specifically being silent until it kind of beached the point. Yeah,
(20:34):
when more mainstream people were and then they were like, Okay,
now it's safe, and that that annoyed me, even though
I should be like, well, it's good, and.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
So I think you can do both.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
I think you can do you can do both.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
You don't do both because you're right, they're real, genuine
feelings like and you know, we're humans, were complex.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I can be like glad you got here, but also
for route.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, and it's also like next time where there's something
else like this, exactly, you don't take the brave choice.
Don't just yeah, don't be sitting there like oh, I
don't know, and listen, I understand, like I'm not even
talking about you know. I do think some people have
gotten into the habit of they they view like all
(21:23):
activism through social media.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Go ahead, keep going, keep going.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Like they're like, oh, well this person didn't speak out
on this thing, And I'm like, well, that person doesn't
really post online. But I've seen them like at protests
and organizing mutual aids, So like maybe we shouldn't just
be like, well, this person didn't post on Instagram, so
they're not part of the movement. Like there's a real movement.
(21:49):
It's not the internet too. And some people who are
like the most vocal on Instagram or wherever, haven't done
anything outside of that. Now it's like it's cool, Like
I would I wish more people would speak up, of course,
and social media is important, but also I just see
some people like their whole thing is just calling people
(22:10):
out because they didn't speak out. And I'm like, you don't,
you don't know this person. You're just judging their online things.
And I get it. I totally get it. If it's
someone who like that's what they post about human rights
and stuff, yes, and politics and they post all the time.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Then like Trevor Noah made an entire career out of
being a person who's supposed to be explaining the truth trans.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
And then he just was radian.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Did he liked he was like radio silent about it.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
And he grew up in South African apartheid.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
That's wild, he said, like a.
Speaker 3 (22:48):
Couple things when Tanahase Coats was on his show, But
that was like a year and a half, and you know,
like it's just a very like to me to your point,
it's different if that's your jazz and then you put
the instrument down, Oh.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Then you should be called out relentlessly for sure. I
mean that's ridiculous. I mean I've I've definitely lost respect
for tons of people. Uh, Like I was, I was
looking at people and I was like, if you're really
gonna ignore this, Like, I just I have no respect
for the way you synthesize, pull it up, the information
and put it out into the world.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
Agree.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I just that as a black person in the United States,
I watched this happen in a really deleterious way because
it also meant that you can't hold like Kamala Harris
or Hakeing Jeffries or Corey Booker to account for Palestine
without there being some type of like counterproductive but without
(23:49):
it being attacked as like a counterproductive measure to like
black liberation in the United States.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
And so that became like this.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Whole other layer where it was like, not only are
these people quiet, but you need to allow them to
be quiet because if you don't, then you're the problem.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
And it's like that's weird to me.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
That is weird. Yeah, that yeah, I mean yeah, I
got a bunch of that too, for criticizing Booker and
Kamala and all of that, And it's like, I don't
this has nothing first of all, Corey Booker and Kamala
Harrison not for black liberation. They're black people, in what
(24:37):
way are they? Kamala posted yesterday this glowing obituary to
Dick Cheney like I don't, I'm sorry, please. The Booker
can talk for a long time about a whole bunch
of things, and then you know, vote to drop bombs
on Gaza and be you know, posing with Netahu and
(24:58):
and and he.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Voted for Jared Kushner's dad, who's not even an ex con.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
He's a con con like he was partying. It was
pardoned by a con man.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
That's a double con. So you know, I feel like
when I so and I'm somebody who does a lot
that I don't put on Instagram, like.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
It's always weird to me.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
So like, I'm working with this church around my way
to do a Turkey drive and.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
My homegirl was like, why isn't your face on the poster?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
And I was on the flyer and I was like,
I mean why, it's for tacades and she was like,
put your face on the freakin' flyer.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
So I was like, okay, fine, so I do.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
And then everyone who I had sent the flyer to
I sent them another updated copy with the version of
my face, and because at that point I only send
it to like six people, do you know, every single
one of them was like, oh, much.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Better, much better, and I was like really.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
And so people will often say a man of Seals
doesn't do anything but sit up here on this internet.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
But also, by the way.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Y'all, there's a lot of other time in the day.
This is the turkey flyer. Yay turkey.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Oh, I'm just speaking in Hey.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Y'all, send some turkeys.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
But there's a lot of time in the day, and
I just feel like it's weird to I don't know,
maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't. I don't advertise
the things that I do, and people are like, well, so,
someone who's very close in my circle recently said, I
understand why you don't.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
However, you're in a space that requires that.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
So is it counterproductive for you to be in that
space and not doing the thing or are you preserving
yourself in that space? And I haven't come up with
an answer.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah. Interesting, Yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
It feels weird to me to tell y'all every time
I do, because I do all the time. So it
feels weird to me to be like, guess what like to.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I know, it almost feels like it cheapens it too, like,
but I understand the other side too, like it's good
to get yourself out there like that and raise that stuff.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Yeah, and then then maybe you inspire.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
I mean, it's a kind of damned if you don't,
if you'd zone, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, I'll let you know.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
What I come up with.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
You See, you'll start to see posts You'll be like, well,
I guess I guess you sucked. So you have people
in the chat that are like, do it, you know,
and I'm just like uncomfortable every time because sometimes you
do stuff with other folks and like they'll post about
it and then you know, they're like.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Can you collab?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
And I'm like, okay, yeah, so tell me about Yeah,
with this project, by the end of it, where how
were you different than where you started?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
Yeah? Good question. Uh Man. There were a lot of
moments throughout the book that were There were even moments
where and it only happened really with drawing, not with
the writing portion. Whereas I would be drawing something, it
would kind of unlock a memory that was hid in somewhere,
because you know, my mom got sick when I was twelve.
(29:05):
She passed away when I was fourteen, So like, if
you think back, that's a you know, you don't remember
that much like in great detail of when you were twelve.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
You know, you remember kind of flashes.
Speaker 2 (29:19):
Shape, yeah, exactly, you don't have defined memories, but during
the process a bunch of them came back. And then
there were also interesting moments where as I would be
drawing a page, I would be into the drawing of
it and trying to make it look good, and then
when it was done, I would look at it and
(29:40):
have like a very emotional reaction, especially like there's a
few pages where I draw my mom, you know, based
on photographs and stuff that I had, and then after
you know, tweaking it and being like the nose that
you know, cause you're into like the nitty gritty of
getting it right. And then I would be done and
look at it and be like, WHOA, that hits hard.
(30:02):
And it was also interesting because throughout the process I
became a parent, and I write about it a bit
towards the end, and that shifted kind of the entire
grief experience because then I saw it more because even
though I of course felt horrible for my mother for
(30:25):
having to have gone through all that, you're still a
kid and you center yourself in that you know you
can't help but do that. But then when you grow
up and become a parent and care for your kids
this much, then you kind of experience it again where
you're like, oh, my god, that must have been so devastating. First. Yeah,
(30:48):
so that was tough and still is tough. I mean
I think about it all the time, like, because my
sister is younger than me. She was only six when
my mom passed away, and like my daughter just turned six,
so it's like, so that stuff is tough. So basically, yeah,
(31:09):
well not currently, but have been and yeah, but the
book was definitely a therapeutic exercise and interesting exploration of grief.
And you know, I write in there a bit about
like O c D and really bad intrusive thoughts that
(31:29):
I had for years following it and still have. They
still pop up, but writing about them, and it's funny
because that's the part of the book. I have like
this squiggly kind of monster person that yeah, right, amazing. Yeah,
so that guy kind of personifies this like horrible voice
(31:54):
in my head. Yeah, yeah, you'd like it too. A
few pages later, me and the horrible doppelganger in my
head a bond over Wu tang and there's a little
sign that says, I bomb atomically, and it's like him
and I thinking of the same thing. So that's another
(32:14):
part of the book, like how art and music and
all that stuff really helped me get through all of that.
So yeah, it was an interesting cathartic experience, and it
also taught me to just like getting it done and
getting it published and the fact that it's resonating and
people like it was also affirming, where it's like, you know,
(32:38):
because I put it out there and no one really
wanted it initially, and it's nice, like cause you were
speaking earlier about sometimes an editor will make things better
and sometimes you kind of have to stick to your
guns if you like something and you want it to
be the way it is. And I wanted this to
be like this and it came out like that. Oh good,
(33:00):
So it's it was also a bit reaffirming to stick
to your guns in that way.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Did Scott just left my mind?
Speaker 3 (33:11):
What is do you have any particular drawings in here
that like because.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
We always have like our favorite, like.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Yeah, our one switches.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Okay, so what's it today?
Speaker 2 (33:25):
What's my favorite today? I mean the first one that
I loved was this drawing of my mom with all
these flowers around her, because that one took me a
long time because I am not someone who can like
look at someone's face and draw it. It takes takes
me effort. I could do it more as like a
(33:46):
cartoon yeah ish thing, but this was more of like
a realistic portrait drawing, and it's an important one, so
I wanted it to look good. So that one I
spent a long time on. And then there's this other
one that I love because it has a lot of
detail where it's my dad. Yeah. Well no, that's a
(34:06):
different one. Okay, there's there's an earlier one that's like
the one when she was sick, but there's one when
she was healthy, probably like page thirty or something.
Speaker 3 (34:19):
Because I see the one with your dad and the
flowers too, and the the yellow sports walkman or.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Is that you?
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah you?
Speaker 1 (34:28):
That's you? Yeahs y'all?
Speaker 3 (34:32):
The yellow Sony sports walkman was that was really the shit.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
It's funny because I loved, like just taking a picture
of that and putting it and then drawing it. I
actually loved doing that, like I love drawing objects. Yes,
that one, that one, Yeah, that one took me a
long time and I drew all the flowers and yeah.
And then there's there's this other one where it's my
(35:00):
dad telling me that she's not my mom isn't gonna
make it, and it's like this picture of us, and
then it's a version of me falling. And then I
made it all like an engagement ring and it has
like my dad proposing on one side and then being
alone on the other side. There's like a lot of
detail to it. It's probably shortly after the flower page.
(35:27):
It's like a loan on its own page. And that one.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Did you know that your brain was like this.
Speaker 3 (35:38):
Before you head that, Oh, because this is other this
is some other shit, Jessie, Like this is this?
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Did I know like all this wild art would come out?
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Wild art is very generous.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
I mean, it's like, I mean, very generic, Like this
is like you just described your dad telling you about
your mom not making it and you falling into an
engagement ring.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Like I'm just like, yeah, that is a that's so nonlinear.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
And so my question is, like I guess what I'm
trying to say is did you see the images in
your mind first?
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Sometimes and sometimes I would be drawing them and they
would just evolve in a certain way, Like I think
with that one such a level.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Of freedom that you have to allow yourself to do that.
Would you agree?
Speaker 2 (36:38):
Definitely? Definitely? Yeah, that's what I mean to say.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Were you always like that? Would you?
Speaker 3 (36:44):
Were you always in a space where you would let
yourself be free enough to just go with it?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
No? Probably, not always. This was a time where I
really did let it fly more than others. For sure. Yeah,
there it is.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
And hypothesis can't to find who I'll be dropping these
mockeries literally perform robbery.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
To me, that's like a son. It's funny because I did.
I did an event with do you know Joel Leone,
uh the right, he's great. I did an event with
him in Brooklyn for the book, and he brought up
that verse and we were just talking about that verse.
And now like everyone who knows knows that verse, Like
(37:30):
it's funny. It's a thing.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
It's a thing, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:36):
I was leaving the y m c A the other
day and his brother was coming in and.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
He had on a Wu Tang hoodie and.
Speaker 3 (37:42):
I was like so and he was like hold on,
and he like adjusted the things he was carrying so
he could be like.
Speaker 2 (37:52):
That's sick. I love it.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
Well, where can people go?
Speaker 3 (37:55):
I mean it's it's in all book places, right, so
it's where.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Was your fir? I mean with that book, I've been
directing people towards bookshop dot org or you know, your
local bookshop, tell them to order it. That's probably my favorite,
you know, and look out for you know, this one.
Speaker 3 (38:16):
So that was gonna be my next question about this one.
So this is also in the graphic novel style.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
It is. Yeah, So what this book is is it's like,
I I realize that a lot of people like to
share quotes but don't really know what the people who
said the quotes did or don't really examine what the
quotes mean. So in this book, I was like, well,
I'm gonna use quotes from like Delora Suerte, James bald
(38:46):
when Fanny Louhamer, Edward SAYI, Chomsky, all these people, and
I'm going to be like, this is what they said, Like,
this is what they mean, this is what they did
kind of thing. Yea, yeah, so that was kind of
the the impetus behind the whole idea for it. So
that's kind of how it goes. And it's basically just,
(39:07):
you know, don't be a marshmallow is a quote from
Delores Suerta, you know, the famous labor activist, when she
was basically like, I think it's don't be a marshmallow,
get off the sidewalk, walk the street with us. In
the history and it's about like, you know, her and
Chavez like really caused the massive disruption with their grape boycott,
(39:28):
and so I write about that, and then they you know,
they changed lives, like they had a collective bargaining agreement
for migrant farm workers and all that, and you know,
Fanny Lohamer said a lot of incredible things and fought
an unbelievable amount of violence towards her and changed the
way delegates were chosen. And some of the other parts
(39:49):
are just like, you know, this thinker said this. So
here's how you could apply this now or I have
like a chapter on you know, the Black Panthers. How
I'm like, you could like what we were talking about.
You know, you can think local, you can help people,
like the Black Panthers are being hunted by Cointel Pro
and they were still able to do the free breakfast
(40:10):
or children and the free healthcare during all that, So
like you can help people and make a difference despite
the insanity that's going on. So and yes, and it's illustrations.
It's it's similar to that one.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
Well, that is what I'm going to ask.
Speaker 3 (40:26):
Do you feel well, first of all, you are now
a professional illustrator.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
I guess, so.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Do you feel like this is the medium for you
in writing books?
Speaker 2 (40:40):
I don't know. I'm sure I will always probably put
out these types of books. But it's interesting. I have
like this and it's funny. I was just going back
and I was on your Small Doses podcast a while ago.
Speaker 3 (40:56):
And it's literally like side effects of being a white boy,
isn't it something like that?
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Yeah, being like a something like that. Yeah, so funny.
But yeah. Then I spoke about a book that I've
been working on for so many years, which is like
this long wild novel. It's super long, and I initially
pitched that and people were like, this is cool, but
(41:20):
like it's five hundred pages, so like yeah, and they're like,
you're there like nobody's going to publish like your first
novel at five hundred pages. But what's interesting about it
is I had always wanted that book because it goes
through these multiple storylines, and one of them is like
a sci fi space story. There's a lot of like
(41:42):
political allegory. It's a super ambitious Hopefully it'll be on
shelves eventually.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
But what I wanted a space story. You had me there, I.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
Know, I know, yeah, yeah, So what I wanted was this,
maybe even two long books where part is regular pros
and and another is kind of like a comic and
you're going through it and it rotates. But the thing
is like, I can do this type of illustrating. But
(42:11):
what I did realize, and this is important to know,
our limitations too. I can't do like a full comic
with like action and people moving and fighting like that
takes a lot of training and just I don't my
brain doesn't work that way. However, I did find an artist,
(42:32):
and this is interesting because this can happen too. He
read the book and he's like, I'm just going to
sketch out some of these creatures and some of the
things that you would want in comic form and see
what you think. And with that book, I was like, oh,
he not only nailed what was in my head, he
actually made it better. So like with these kind of
(42:54):
really super personal books, maybe I will continue to illustrate them,
got them some other ones. But yes, long with did
answer to your question, I do love having a visual
component in the books.
Speaker 3 (43:09):
I think that because we I feel like we're in
a We're in such a time of change and shift,
and one of the things that has changed and shifted
is people's ability to really take in information, particularly concepts,
and so like in in transforming my One Woman Show
to the text, I realized that I feel like my
(43:31):
book what would the Ancestors Say? Reads like a high
vibrational Instagram scroll because the content is very compact, Like
it's very like the things that I'm talking about are
presented to you in a dense fashion, but over the
course of many different formats. So you get a monologue,
you get a lecture, you get like something that looks
like written stand up, you get dialogue, you get.
Speaker 1 (43:55):
Poetry.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
So I feel like it feels like you're scrolling because
we get these videos that are like three minutes of
just straight to your neck socialism, right, and then you're
onto the next video and it's like someone dancing to
whatever in information these days. So I'm excited to see
(44:21):
more work. I love your art and I love your
point of view, so to see it in art is great.
And everybody get your local bookshop to order Jesse Mechanic's book.
The last time we spoke a story of loss, and
(44:41):
you know, I just think it's also coming out at
such a great time where there is no more struggler
strife in the world because.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
Now everybody can own it, right.
Speaker 2 (44:51):
It's true. Yeah, thank you, looky, thank you, Jesse.
Speaker 1 (44:59):
And I'm serious. I am going to come up and
visit you. You think I was playing, but I'm not.
Speaker 2 (45:04):
Please do, please do.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
And we're going to go to that store and see
if they have any more of those shirts.
Speaker 2 (45:08):
Safety have a lot of cool stuff that I also
want to buy. The other day.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
I love it, y'all. A question before we go, It
was a question, mister Mechanic. Any children's books plans.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yeah, fantastic question. And I would love to do a
children's book. And my wife is a special education teacher
and I would love to do one with her because
I feel like I could come up with like a
broad idea and she could make it great, and then
I could do the illustrations. That's a great question. I
(45:42):
would love to do a children's book.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
Well, I am starting a children's show next Oh's Radical
Readers Rob Readers, and every episode raw Rab will do
a book report about a children's book that she considers
radical and also sing a song that she will compose,
(46:08):
and she will also speak to the creators of these books.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Oh that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Wow, so it's like a reading rainbow.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
But like with teeth, that'll be great.
Speaker 3 (46:27):
Jesse, stay up and stay drying, happy to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
Have a good one. And then
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