Roman History Expert Answers Our Dumb Questions

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
I am now listening to soft Core History.

Speaker 1 (00:15):
What is up? Welcome back to Softcore History.

Speaker 3 (00:17):
I am your host for the week, Rob Fox, joined
as always.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
By Dan Jester.

Speaker 4 (00:22):
Thanks for the invite back to your show.

Speaker 5 (00:24):
Rep.

Speaker 4 (00:24):
It's always good, always a pleasure to have you here.

Speaker 3 (00:28):
We have a very exciting, if inexplicable show today for
some reason, and I apologize in advance.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
We're joined by an.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Expert, which is very odd for this show. Typically I
like to be the one with the most historical knowledge.
He likes to hold that over yea, you like to
hold that over everyone, and I'm just getting cooked like crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
Today we have Alex Petkis. Is that right?

Speaker 3 (00:58):
PHDHD from what you sign all your emails with, I do, yeah,
which I would to you know, you don't go doctor
Uh it sounds too.

Speaker 5 (01:07):
Much like doctor Pepper. Okay, doctor Petkis, Yeah, that makes sense.
I still have old students to call me that. But
doctor Peck never liked it.

Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yeah, I would feel bad about it. I would feel
I had a history teacher in high school who insisted
on the doctor.

Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah, insisted on it.

Speaker 4 (01:25):
I would too. I mean Shack has a doctor in education, Yeah,
doctor Shack.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Doctor yeah, did he Does he have a real one
or is it honorary?

Speaker 4 (01:34):
I think it's real.

Speaker 6 (01:34):
Okay, an honorary doctorate in education.

Speaker 5 (01:38):
I achieved it.

Speaker 3 (01:39):
I would feel bad if I actually got the PhD,
But if I had an honorary PhD, I would.

Speaker 6 (01:43):
Go full doctor milk the hell out of it.

Speaker 3 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, because at that point it's just gratuitous
in a hilarious way.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
Well, it's weird because you know, in grad school the
trend now is like you grad students call their professors
like Jim or you know, Sally.

Speaker 3 (01:58):
You get pretty close with the professor in grad.

Speaker 5 (02:00):
School, right, Yeah, it's like too close sometimes, that's what
I've heard.

Speaker 6 (02:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:05):
But and so you know, when I when I was
becoming a guy on the internet as I am now,
I was, you know, very averse to flashing.

Speaker 6 (02:17):
The whole academic credential thing. But all my friends are like, dude,
you got to milk that. You got to milk that.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
You absolutely need to milk that, especially because.

Speaker 4 (02:24):
Because you lowered yourself on the internet.

Speaker 5 (02:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
You A, you lowered yourself by existing on the internet.
And b.

Speaker 3 (02:31):
I don't mean this offensively, but you are a very
nondescript white guy. Right, so you just showing up on
a screen talking, you could just be a guy in
a basement, right, Yeah, you need to you need to
slap that credential.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
All the degrees behind you on the wall.

Speaker 6 (02:44):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (02:45):
But you do have a soothing sort of like monotone
type of voice that that I I'm a rube like
if I will immediately like latch onto superficial things, so
if someone speaking calmly, I'll be like, there's mark.

Speaker 5 (03:00):
People tell me that they like to listen to my
podcast right before they go to bed and actually to
soothe them to sleep, which I'm never sure whether to
take as a compliment or I think else.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
I used to fall asleep to the Civil War all
the time, which is another suit.

Speaker 5 (03:16):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (03:16):
I don't even remember who narrates it because it's not
Kem Burns and narrates it. But that is another soothing voice,
so it's I think it's mostly complementary. Someone told me
they fell asleep to this podcast, which is fucking tychotic.

Speaker 5 (03:26):
But it is.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
I've heard people fall asleep to our step pod father,
Dan Carlin's podcast for History.

Speaker 5 (03:33):
I could fall asleep to that. Yeah, No, it's not
so bad. I guess it's got its place, right.

Speaker 3 (03:38):
Yeah, you are a PhD in classics from Princeton, that's right. Yeah,
for my sins, what is classics versus a PhD in history?

Speaker 1 (03:53):
You're kind of explaining it off, Mike, But.

Speaker 5 (03:56):
So classics is is really the study of the Greeks
and the Romans as such?

Speaker 1 (04:01):
And influence by your last name at all?

Speaker 5 (04:03):
Yeah, I can't.

Speaker 6 (04:05):
I can't deny that I had a kind of personal
stake in it.

Speaker 5 (04:07):
I did a little Latin in high school, kind of
like in the half assed way that a high school
like you took Latin.

Speaker 6 (04:13):
I took Latin.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Does that mean you went to a Catholic school?

Speaker 5 (04:15):
No, No, so public school and you know Central Houston, Texas,
we had a Latin program.

Speaker 6 (04:21):
It was kind of dorky, but you know, it was
fun enough.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
My parents were pissed that my Catholic high school did
not offer Latin because they're like, we would have made
you Latin.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
They're like, it's more useful than you not learned. Rob's
parents hate Vatican two.

Speaker 3 (04:36):
Oh actually my mom loves the Vatican too.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
I don't know what my dad's house divided, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (04:42):
Yeah, Well, so I mean, imagine what you could have
become if you had only done Latin.

Speaker 3 (04:49):
Could have homologized everything. I would understand any word.

Speaker 6 (04:53):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (04:55):
So I was Greek Orthodoxy, and so I was surrounded
by Greek. Never knew a word of it, where like,
you know, fourth generation, I'm like a quarter Greek. So
it's but you got the name, you got the name,
and you can you can kind of pretend, right, So
I got. I guess I got to college. I'd done Latin,

(05:16):
it was behind me, never really thought i'd come back
to it. And then I had this opportunity to learn Greek.
I guess it was like on the course catalog and
I had some free credits or whatever, and uh, I
was like I should learn Greek, you know, talk to
the old ladies at church. Maybe I could understand a
word of the lurgy. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah and uh
and so I take this class Attic Greek my third

(05:39):
year of college and it was just like like a yeah,
well yeah, basically like an election, yeah yeah, because I
was a majoring editor.

Speaker 1 (05:46):
Right, that's the wild elective to take.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, because usually if you can avoid any difficulty in
an elective whatever.

Speaker 1 (05:55):
Music for jocks you right, right, right. I I fucked myself.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
So I took like a lot of history of active
because I was like, oh, get alert something that I
would get in there and be like, oh my god,
why did I fucking do?

Speaker 4 (06:04):
I'm surprised.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
And I went to a state school and one of
the electives that was offered was essentially a glorified gym class.

Speaker 6 (06:09):
Yeah, and you.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
Took it, right of course.

Speaker 2 (06:12):
And look where you are today, same place you want
to r Yeah, exactly exactly.

Speaker 5 (06:19):
So you know, I had this experience where it was like,
this is what I have to do for my life.
This is so cool. You know, all the etymologies, and
I was kind of good at the Greek, like the
language part.

Speaker 3 (06:31):
Because that's another Those are the two great like etymology, editomology,
whatever the fuck languages Greek.

Speaker 5 (06:36):
And Latin source languages. Yeah, I'm more Latin, but there's
enough in Greek, you know, philosophy, history, those are Greek terms.
I mean, church comes from a Greek word. There's a
lot of Christianity in Greek, for sure, a lot of
Christianity and like like the kind of intellectual categories that
we think with. Yeah, theory is a Greek word.

Speaker 6 (06:59):
And so on and so on. So I was really
enamored with this stuff.

Speaker 5 (07:03):
And I had a teacher who was like six', four, built,
brilliant big, family AND i was, LIKE i want to
be like this.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
Guy so well on your. WAY i, mean you're not that,
jack but you have.

Speaker 6 (07:15):
KIDS i need to work on the.

Speaker 5 (07:16):
Jack yeah, yeah but, yeah got three, kids and you
know someday it's.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
RIGHT i, mean you're picking up those. Kids is enough
of a.

Speaker 5 (07:24):
Workout, YEAH i was doing some squats with the with
the seven year old. Earlier, yeah, yeah, yeah it's. Perfect,
yeah got. It you gotta squeeze it in when you.
Can so so, so classics is basically language intensive in
its traditional. Form you, know this is often that you
get archaeologists in the classics, department you get, philosophers you get.

(07:46):
HISTORIANS i, mean it's a kind of a mish, mash
right of all these, disciplines but really the languages are
the kind of key piece of, it at least. Historically
now it's of course it's all about critical gender and
colonely decolonializing and The greek sexing the text and.

Speaker 6 (08:04):
Yeah, yeah who are not as gay as people think they?
Were in my. Opinion but that's another can of.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Work.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
Please they invented threesomes and the rumans invited.

Speaker 5 (08:13):
Women, yeah that's that's WHAT i. Hear that's that's the.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
Word we're gonna get into that, Lot we're going to
get into.

Speaker 5 (08:21):
That so so, yeah and THEN i kind of ran
with it and ended up doing a.

Speaker 6 (08:26):
PhD and you.

Speaker 5 (08:29):
KNOW i was an academic for a couple of years
BEFORE i realized this wasn't WHAT i was supposed to
do with my. Life, yeah AND i think the academias
got a lot of problems that they need to sort.
Out and then a lot of really interesting intellectual work
is being done. Now just like direct to customer right
right on the.

Speaker 6 (08:48):
Internet.

Speaker 3 (08:49):
Right it includes your Podcast cost Of, glory, yeah which
you can find anywhere. Anywhere you get your podcast.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Anywhere, yeah he prefers you listen On. Amazon, yeah can
you listen to?

Speaker 4 (09:00):
Podcasts nobody prefers.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
That nobody prefer.

Speaker 3 (09:03):
It BUT i do LEAVE I i Sometimes i'll leave
like our show on for the dogs on like Our alexa,
okay which is our, Tagline like you don't have to
listen to leave it on for the.

Speaker 5 (09:12):
Dogs, yeah and they'll think you're there and they won't try. Anything, yep, yeah, yeah,
yeah you should do. That that's that's the key.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
Demo dogs are a really underrated podcast.

Speaker 5 (09:20):
Demographic, yeah well that makes me think about sponsorship options
for my. Show, yeah so all, right filew that.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
Away yeah, yeah put that.

Speaker 3 (09:29):
Away so one thing you said in your emails to
us is that right now you are a Big slah.

Speaker 5 (09:36):
GUY i am a Big solar. Guy Is sula a
household name for you?

Speaker 3 (09:42):
Guys so THAT'S i know who he, is BUT i
had to do some refresher work to kind of really
get into the details of.

Speaker 4 (09:49):
Them but that glossed over.

Speaker 1 (09:52):
Them, yeah, yeah, yeah we've glossed over.

Speaker 3 (09:53):
Them and that's actually the first THING i want to
talk about is He's he's a very underrated figure totally
In roman history because when you think Of rome Obviously
caesar And augustus and then you get you, Know Nero
Marcus aurelius comtists just From.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
Gladiator tiberius and his island.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Kind of Like, constantine right those love.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
Island yeah, yeah maybe not fish well the original yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah little.

Speaker 3 (10:19):
Fishes but, like why why do you Think sula is
kind of overlooked by by normany history. Buffs, WELL i
here's HOW i got Into. Solo so on my, SHOW
i do like long form, biographies And I'm i'm following
this one ancient, Author, plutarch who used to be super.

(10:41):
Popular he's a biographer from The roman world and used
to be like the most popular classical author of all
in like the eighteenth century In. America and So i'm
just kind of going through these biographies And sula is
one of, them, Right and SO i get THE sla
and you, know if you're in a classics department maybe

(11:05):
or if you're kind of Around roman, Historians sula is
just one of the villains of all, history. Right he's
he's famous for reviving the office of the, dictator which,
is you, know it's not like totally the same thing
as a modern. Dictator it's like an office in The roman,
constitution you get voted. Dictator it had a, utility it

(11:28):
had it's like an emergency, office right, right, right you
know with the famously Like, cincinnatus, Yes George washington's hero,
exactly you, know blah blah blah.

Speaker 5 (11:36):
Exactly and So sola revives this office like one hundred
and twenty years after it's been. Defunked saula is living
in the first half of the first CENTURY, bc so.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
He's alive When Julius caesar's like a. Teenager.

Speaker 5 (11:50):
Yeah, yeah they overlap with some interesting. Results, yeah which.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
We'll talk about a little.

Speaker 5 (11:54):
Bit. Yeah, so And saula is like the generation before
all the all the famous guys from the Late republic
that you might you, Know crassis the richest man In,
Rome pompey The, great Who's caesar's enemy in The Civil,
War cato The, younger they're all like stamped By sola's. Legacy.
Yeah so he's got this big, influence and so he's
famous for reviving the office of. Dictator he's also famous

(12:15):
for doing this incredibly bloody purge of his enemies after
he wins this incredibly bloody civil. War right so you,
know arguably a. Monster, yeah from one, perspective, right but.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
He but, wait, yeah hold, on there's.

Speaker 4 (12:34):
More.

Speaker 3 (12:35):
ALSO i always with times like that, Too so we
actually here's a quick question on. THAT i always we
always kind of joke it's, like, yeah but it was
you KNOW adbc or like when they do something it's
like that's fucked, up but it WAS, Adbc like it
wasn't he didn't do it in twenty sixteen or, something you, know,
right right standards of his, time even for the time he,
was people were, like god damn, Dude.

Speaker 5 (12:57):
Yeah nobody ever did that before or or after In.
Roun so he he murders or he, proscribes so he
doesn't do it. Himself maybe some of these guys escaped to,
exile but like more than a thousand Of rome's leading
men get their name put on a list posted in the.

(13:17):
Forum you, know that means, basically your life is. Forfeit
if one Of saula's guys catches, you they cut off your.
Head bring it To sola as he's sitting there in the.
Forum oh, yeah, OKAY i recognize. Him you're, good cross
him off the. List he gives you a, reward and
then their their proper property gets.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Confiscated so and if they, escape their property still gets.

Speaker 5 (13:40):
Confiscated, yeah and you know they can maybe hide out
and Wherever marseille.

Speaker 6 (13:46):
Or you, Know.

Speaker 5 (13:47):
Albania caesar got. Away caesar gets. Away, yeah so he
didn't get, proscribed. Didn't but he was like a little
maybe a little too young for.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
That.

Speaker 5 (13:56):
Yeah but So saula has just won The Civil, war
and he's kind of ordering people. Around he Gets pompey
is maybe twenty. Two he was a general For sola
in The Civil. War And sala's, Like, POMPEY i don't
think you're married to the right.

Speaker 6 (14:11):
WOMAN i got the woman for.

Speaker 5 (14:12):
You Pomp he's, like, yes, sir, Yeah and then he
goes To caesar and he, Says, CAESAR i don't think
you're married to the right. Woman Because caesar was actually
married to the daughter of one Of sala's mortal, enemies
this Guy, senna and he's, LIKE i, don't, like you,
know a prominent young, man like you shouldn't be married
to the daughter of you, know keep that line, going,

(14:32):
Yeah And caesar's, like, no screw, You, YEAH i love.

Speaker 6 (14:37):
Her he's seventeen years.

Speaker 5 (14:38):
Old, yeah.

Speaker 6 (14:39):
Yeah and so.

Speaker 5 (14:43):
He runs, away like you, know he flees into the.
Mountains he's like getting chased around by you, know the
guy's hunting him, down and he finally they get they
catch him BECAUSE i think he gets dysentery or. Something
he's very organ trail happ, yeah, yeah which you, know
one bad glass of water and it doesn't take. Much

(15:04):
And caesar doesn't have like the strongest constitution. Anyway so
he manages to bribe the guards who capture, him and
they bring him Before, slah you, know instead of just
like killing him out, right, Right and so they bring
him Before sola And caesar's friends come and they. Intercede
please saw he's just a, Boy he's a good. Kid

(15:24):
he's lost his. Father caesar's dad had a heart attack
while he was tying his shoe one. Day it's. Tough,
yeah so.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
More laces on a sandal than, yeah.

Speaker 5 (15:33):
And you, know it's a long. Process and you, know
Maybe sola, sees you, know he lost his dad. YOUNG
i don't, know but he Spares, caesar but he, says all, right,
fine we'll spare the, boy but your fools if you
don't see many Of marius in this. Boy And marius
Was sulla's like other mortal In, himyes, yeah so he's like,
this that's the story that he kind of prophesied That

(15:56):
caesar was gonna rise and be something.

Speaker 1 (15:58):
Evil Was MARIUS i actually forgot to look this up.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
Yesterday Was marius the guy behind The Marian marian?

Speaker 5 (16:04):
Reforms, yes same? Guy, yeah, Okay, yeah So marius is
kind of an important guy In sola's story Because slah
is like twenty years younger than. Him but he kind
of makes his rise in politics in the, military especially
being a junior officer In marius's army When marius his,
consul And marius famously kind of not privatize The roman,

(16:30):
army but he professionalized. It so he used to be you,
know you, go you fight a campaign as A roman
citizen for the. Summer people don't fight wars in the.
Winter that's that's. Ungentlemanly you go back to your, farm
you come back and you, know you supply your own
weapons and. Armor you, know you poor people don't fight
in the. Army that's, ungentlemanly, Right And marius is, like,

(16:52):
no we gotta we gotta win. Wars we got to,
Recruit we got to get the state to pay for
armor and equipment and, stuff.

Speaker 3 (17:00):
Which was kind of a massive reform at the, time
especially in The Western, mediterranean, right like that was not
a thing anyone else was doing at.

Speaker 5 (17:06):
All, Right, no AND i mean you could hire, mercenaries
but you, know The romans they have all of these
like citizen potential, manpower you, know knocking around the streets Of.
Rome the brothels, like let's let's get these guys to.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
Work you're not doing anything, right put a sword in
their hands.

Speaker 5 (17:26):
And uh and by doing, that he what ends up
happening is you kind of make the army loyal more
to the. General like he's you, know the general is
going to give, you you, know plots of land when you,
retire you're going to kind of be loyal to him for.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Life that's whatever you, win you get all.

Speaker 5 (17:44):
The booty war brides and all that. Stuff. Yeah so
so this is like a really important piece and the
kind of the lead up to The Civil. War so So,
marius you, know long story, Short sula is like an
important junior Officer. Marius When marius is fighting this war
In africa against this Guy, eugurtha who's this Suave numidian,

(18:07):
King he's bribing all The roman aristocrats and prolonging the.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
War and it's like west Of, carthage.

Speaker 5 (18:12):
Right, yeah it's, like, yeah west Of carthage kind Of,
algeria Northern algeria.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Area they already Have carthage.

Speaker 6 (18:20):
On carthage is.

Speaker 5 (18:22):
Down, yeah, Yeah Carthage's Tunisia numidia is Like, Algeria Morocco's.
Mauritania that's kind of how it breaks. Down so so
they end up Basically marius is fighting this war With,
ugurtha and and the way that he ends up winning
is not by defeating You gurtha in. BATTLE i mean

(18:43):
does a couple of, times but he's not gonna like
get the. Guy as long as You gurtha is, alive
this war is going to go. On he's you, know, slippery,
popular knows the. Territory so they end up he ends
up Having sola go out And saula is like thirty
And marius is, fifty And sola goes out on a
kind of tricky sting. Operation he pretends to be an

(19:06):
emissary to another rival, king this Guy, bocus who is
sort of frenemies with, You, girtha and he tricks You.
Gurtha essentially the ruse. Is bocus convinces You gurtha that you,
know they're going to Betray sola to You gurtha so
That youugurtha can have this like expensive captive and this

(19:28):
high verage a hostage and just keep the war going on.
Forever and Then solah Convinces, bocus who was maybe kind
of really debating about, it so he puts himself at
personal risk with like not a lot of, guards you,
know goes on this mission To, bocus and he basically
Convinces bocas to Betray youugurtha, instead because.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
He's apparently he's kind of a charming, guy.

Speaker 6 (19:48):
Super, charming he's good with the.

Speaker 5 (19:50):
Ladies, yeah he's, handsome you, know kind of scary handsome
and you, know very very sl, operator and you, know
he kind of bets That bocus is going to do
not what is the noble. Thing the noble thing would, be,
okay E girth is a Fellow. Numidian they're freedom. Fighters

(20:12):
they want to Get roman domination out Of. Africa but you,
Know sola bets The bocus is going to, see all,
Right i'd rather be friends with the great power and
be like the big man In numidia than like be
an honorable new.

Speaker 6 (20:23):
Media right actually so so.

Speaker 5 (20:25):
Anyway he he, uh you, know they captured you Girtha
bocus's troops like slaughter all of his, bodyguards and they
card him back To roman chains And marius at the
time gets all the, credits But sola later starts circulating
the story Old marius was kind of slow and fat

(20:47):
and really what it took was me to Capture. Youugurtha
i'm really the guy who deserves the credit for winning
the war In. Numidia and this is kind of the
beginning of the break With sola And, marius who end
up basically fight the civil. WARS i guess it's very personal.

Speaker 3 (21:02):
And the civil, war and we didn't get in the
details the civil war and, say but the civil war
essentially ends With sola's, dictatorship right, yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Which is like you said first, Time haping one hundred
and twenty.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
Years and he's kind of and this is WHY i
kind of don't get him being.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
Overlooked he's sort of the guy before the.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Guy every permission structure That Julius caesar needs to do
what he, does and PROBABLY i Guess augustus to to
do what he does comes From. SULA i think even
pompe was, Like sula did, It why CAN'T? I, right, yeah.

Speaker 5 (21:34):
Yeah sola is kind of the example that they're all thinking.
About and so he wins the civil, war but it's
after he already wins that he has himself declared dictator for.
LIFE i, think So caesar becomes dictator for, life and
Why sola, ESPECIALLY i think you could kind of title
a book or maybe this podcast episode About Rome's Greatest,

(21:55):
dictator because he Becomes dictator for The constitution of The,
laws which means basically, becomes you, know has the supreme
authority to like rewrite the constitution right and make all
these reforms that are gonna make it harder to have
a civil war. Again and then he lays the office.
Down so, sorry he was just.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Dictator there was no. Time there was no.

Speaker 5 (22:20):
Time, yeah there was no time, limit and people were, like,
oh he's dictator for life, now, right so that, yes
but he lays it down famously when he didn't have. To,
yeah and so you, know you could argue in. This
One german historian from nineteenth century, said saulah, was you,
know could be compared only With George.

Speaker 6 (22:39):
Washington he's, like.

Speaker 5 (22:41):
Because he laid down the office, right, right you, Know
George washington might not have proscribed and slaughtered thousands of his.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
Enemies, well hold, on, people forget About George washington's war.

Speaker 4 (22:51):
Crimes just executing The, germans that's, right.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
And french in The french And Indian, war and he
put a few down as. Well so that's just a little.
Sin Though soulian streak to, him you crack a few, eggs, yeah,
exactly and he was probably already by the seven years
Slash french and you were pretty well versed in Ancient,
rome and.

Speaker 4 (23:10):
He was terrifying stuff like. That it was a six
foot four ginger on a. Horse. Yeah not a lot
of those around at the. Time it's not something you
want to see coming at, all which is horrible, Teeth,
yeah of all the ice cream.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
Eats but so what what uh why why Doesn't sola
GET i, mean because he did all these crazy things
with the prescriptions SLAUGHTERING i think like a couple thousands same, night, yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:35):
In the In, rome, right like just in front of.

Speaker 5 (23:37):
Everyone, yeah and then also does become, dictator but then
lets the dictatorship, go, Right but it's just kind of,
LIKE i DON'T i don't understand how that doesn't meet
the how that's not AS i, guess impressive or interesting
to read, about as Like, nero who doesn't seem really

(23:59):
that constant, quenchle, right but did a lot of just wild, Shit,
yeah making his donkey console and or his. Horse. YEAH i, think,
well we get we get so fascinated with The roman
emperors because they're so kind of weird and kooky and you, know. Perverted,
yeah BUT i think it's partly because we don't Read

(24:23):
plutarch like we used. To it's fair like so Like George,
washington like all The, founders they're super. Rombros, yes you,
know they would have been a lot more familiar With
sullah than With nero because he's like at LEAST i, mean,
okay you near is an. Emperor but the guys of
The Late, republic they're they're like in a, republic which

(24:43):
is what The americans are trying to, create and people
are like looking back to this these glory days of
the ancient world where you, know you could run for
office and democracy or republicanism, matter public speaking matters in
a free, state like a public you, know whereas an,
empire you, know it's just it's like a tyrannical monarchy

(25:04):
from the perspective of the eighteenth century at, least, right
so he was more well known in those early, days
AND i don't, know he does come up in the
pages of the letters of The Founding fathers as it's
like wicked. Villain.

Speaker 4 (25:17):
YEAH i feel Like nero gets more roun because of
The Catholic.

Speaker 5 (25:19):
Church, yeah. Public that's probably burning Burning. Christians yeah, yeah Burning,
Rome Burning. Rome, yes, Yes so you, KNOW i Think
sola deserves a kind of you, know Like Tony soprano
kind of biopic. BIOPIC i, agree make the SHOW. Hbo, yeah,

(25:40):
yeah well because you have all kinds of wild. Orgies
this is What sola was really. Into, yeah that's how
what he retired. To, yes he starts his. Career little
known fact that In rome you could kind of piss
away your your twenties carousing with actor is writing. PLAYS

(26:01):
i Mean solo wrote these like, raunchy like low brow
comedy plays and you, know would fool around with the,
actors men and women. Afterwards he APPARENTLY i wrote his
name now and he had a lover that for his whole.

Speaker 3 (26:15):
Life apparently something with AN. M i can't find. It,
yeah but it was a guy and he was just
like in love with.

Speaker 5 (26:21):
Them, yeah this like wrinkly old. Actor he's like still you,
know keeping him around when he's. Sixty, yeah dictator.

Speaker 4 (26:30):
Yeah, yeah an. Actor that's.

Speaker 3 (26:31):
Gross, yeah actors were FOR i think we've mentioned on
the show, before but like actors and posts and stuff
that's like low class, Shit like he's not hanging out
and like at the club with you, Know Brad pitt
and stuff like, that and they's no esteem to that, life.

Speaker 5 (26:45):
Right, Right, yeah they're basically like a you, know one
level above. Prostitutes, yeah because The romans have this weird
thing about like having your body watched by a lot of,
people and actors are often scantily cloud clad and so
you know The roman centers where these thick, togas but
like actors are kind of skin tight, clothes scandily, clad

(27:07):
and so there's an idea that the audience is like
somehow screwing you with their. Eyes so an actor sor by,
definition like you, know.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
Right they're like a.

Speaker 6 (27:18):
Stripper, yeah like there's. Strippers, yeah, yeah, yeah there's.

Speaker 2 (27:20):
STRIPPERS i mean there's not much difference between us as
podcasters having A patreon and only.

Speaker 5 (27:25):
Fans.

Speaker 4 (27:25):
Girl in, FACT i think.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
We are lower.

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Class we make less money we do, sure which is
all that matters at this.

Speaker 5 (27:31):
Point, yeah not not appreciated enough and maybe deserving a
little bit of a. Boost, YEAH i think we.

Speaker 1 (27:38):
Just need to do sex stuff on The.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Patreon, yeah sh, together but, yeah like stuff to ourselves or.

Speaker 4 (27:45):
Just whatever whatever the audience.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Wants, really let's just go Full roman with. It, yeah,
honestly just.

Speaker 6 (27:50):
Do just let the highest bidder.

Speaker 5 (27:52):
Decide.

Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yeah, yeah we won't do things to each, other but
whatever you want us to do, ourselves we'll do.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
It we'll be actors for. You all the world is a.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Stage you're going to regret that when they request the
heart wheels goes up your.

Speaker 1 (28:04):
Ass, yeah they're gonna cross up.

Speaker 5 (28:06):
Immediately but you'd be following in the footsteps of some
Of rome's great, Men, yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:12):
Including Solid do you think that's where he got a
lot of his like charm?

Speaker 6 (28:16):
FROM i think.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
SO i was just living as a.

Speaker 4 (28:19):
Creative basically for his.

Speaker 3 (28:21):
Twenties because even though anyone could fuck, around it WASN'T i.
Didn't wasn't it still kind of outstanding that he did
it with because.

Speaker 1 (28:27):
He was broke in his, twenties, right? Right?

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Right so wasn't it kind of outstanding that he did
it with that low class as opposed to just LIKE
i don't, know being like a trust fund kid and
like going to resorts.

Speaker 4 (28:38):
And, yeah broken his twenties soul and, me, yeah birds
of a.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
Feather that's WHY i get so much encouragement out of this, story,
right wasting my twenties. Away and WELL i was an,
academic WHICH i see as much much wasted, time but as.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Opposed to orgies with.

Speaker 5 (28:56):
Actors, yeah how different are they? Really but so you
could Contrast Julius, caesar he HE i, mean probably he
had his prostitutes or, whatever But caesar loves to go
after the.

Speaker 6 (29:11):
Wives of prominent.

Speaker 5 (29:12):
Men you, know he's got you, Know betted With pompey's,
wife Maybe, crassis his Wife, solanas the mother Of brutus
who ends up stabbing. Him there's this rumor floating around
that he might have Been brutus's. DAD i don't think
the chronology makes, sense but you, know.

Speaker 4 (29:31):
That's a bit of a, starfucker.

Speaker 3 (29:33):
Starfucker, YEAH i mean that is a storyline in the show,
room he's Saying.

Speaker 5 (29:37):
Brutus's, mom that's, Right, yeah totally. True But salah doesn't
seem to. REALLY i, mean he has like five, wives
so it's not like he's a you, know faithful, guy
but he's just not into the whole cuckholding.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
Thing yeah, apparently but but he.

Speaker 6 (29:53):
Is so he's really, charming and he he.

Speaker 5 (29:56):
Has this, girl probably like an older, lady like a,
courtisan and he's, poor and she's his favorite, apparently and
then she dies and wills him a ton of.

Speaker 4 (30:09):
Money she's like His Miss, Havisham, yes From Great.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Expectation, YES epti banks.

Speaker 5 (30:13):
Her so he's a bit of a, jigglowe you, know,
uh except he.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
Banks you gotta do what you gotta do in these.

Speaker 3 (30:19):
STREETS i, mean If The Great expectations would have ended,
differently If pip.

Speaker 4 (30:24):
Or whoever is dickens just you know that chapter was.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
Removed, yeah you couldn't put that in a cereal in
the paper or anything like.

Speaker 1 (30:31):
That but it's in between the.

Speaker 6 (30:33):
Lines it's it's probably implies.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Allegorically, yeah, yeah absolutely getting.

Speaker 5 (30:39):
Drilled so So sola had His. Misshavisham she, dies wills
him a bunch of. Money and then his dad's, wife you,
know his dad's dead, now but his like second wife
is a. Stepmom, yeah also had a thing For, sola
maybe more than just a kind of felial. Effects and

(31:00):
so when she, dies she wills him a bunch of money.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Too the tails old the, time, stepmom step.

Speaker 4 (31:05):
Son he's laying it down then all these women.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Are but we know he's laying it down because he's
laying it down on every actor In rome.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Too so that's where he's finding out anything the secrets of, life, right, yeah,
WHY i think it's a big low in their.

Speaker 5 (31:21):
Mind this is a big, piece you. Know he he
gets the whole range of human, experience, right you, know.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
Which is not something the nobility typically gets because he
was kind of born broke, right, right and he was
he didn't get the money until those those women.

Speaker 6 (31:33):
Died, basically yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (31:34):
Yeah so so so he gets into his you, know around,
thirty he's just about too late to run for the
lowest office In, rome the. Questership, yeah but he but
he runs kind of late, bloomer like you would not
have pegged this guy as the future first man In,
rome much less a mass murderer. Tyrant but but he

(31:57):
he starts off his career and that's how he ends
up fighting For mari and all the other.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
Stuff so what's interesting to be About solotu is he
seems would you call him?

Speaker 1 (32:06):
Intelligent oh, yeah, okay so.

Speaker 6 (32:09):
Books smart and street?

Speaker 3 (32:11):
Smart yeah, yeah, okay so he's very well rounded in that.
Regard he gets the dictatorship and then writes a bunch
of laws to prevent another.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Dictatorship, right.

Speaker 3 (32:21):
But it seems like based on what happens immediately after,
him actions speak louder than, laws, Right like the norm
is broken now it can't be. Unbroken does he have
Any is he actually just so afraid of that that
he writes the laws or like WITH i, mean did
he have any foresight into that? Whatsoever because it seems
like obviously like he did he broke the law to

(32:43):
write the, law which is at odds with, itself and
then obviously the law immediately gets broken. Again so there's
civil wars all the way up until The imperial Until
august is essentially like was he just has he have.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
His fingers like it's an outrageous?

Speaker 5 (33:01):
Plan, yeah well it's it's an interesting story because two
of the guys who end up so one of the
key pieces of his legislation is this office of The
tribune of The. Plubs we don't have to go in the,
details but it's this kind of like populist. Office you
can call an assembly and make a law kind of
out of thin. Air, yeah and this you don't even
have to ask The. Senate And saula is, like this

(33:23):
is this is, Ridiculous this is chaotic these people have
too much. Power we gotta we got to clip their.
Wings he he basically abolishes all the important powers of
this ancient office of The tribune of The, plubs but
two of his subordinate, officers famous Men pompey And, crassus
eight years After sola, dies they reinstate it because they

(33:48):
want to use, it because it's, like it's, like how
this is How marius rises the. Power you could get
the people to like vote you a great military, command
even if The senate's like this is a terrible. Idea,
yeah the whole, city The marian, reforms, right the citizen.
Army do you do like an end around with a ballot?
Measure basically, yeah, yeah and SO i THINK i think

(34:09):
it's you, know solid dies in seventy eight after he
becomes dictator in eighty. TWO i, think so he doesn't
like live long enough to really you, know firm up the. Constitution,
yeah AND i think that he kind of like he,
cared but he also cared about partying and having a
good time because.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
He retired to Fuck.

Speaker 5 (34:31):
Island basically, basically, yeah it's like an early version Of,
tiberius but.

Speaker 3 (34:35):
He was doing, it presumably with mostly adultsh, infants.

Speaker 5 (34:40):
Right, right, right you know he had his old actor, buddy,
Yeah metrodorus or.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
Whatever it was a lot.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
Of generations in, There i'm. SURE i mean with Any
roman you kind of have to give some some room
for like some sort of like boy slave or.

Speaker 5 (34:55):
Something, Yes but BUT i know that even then because
we've done episodes on Like roman sexuality and stuff like,
that and it was essentially like it's, fucked but like
you can you can molest a fourteen year old slave
and that you're not really going to get looked down
on for, that, Right but if you fucked like a
five year, old, yeah that would be they.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Would be, like no, crossing even if it was a.
Slave they were like that is, insane. Right they have
some some, standards some few.

Speaker 2 (35:25):
Standards So solo just went To pompeii really just had
a grand old.

Speaker 5 (35:29):
Time, yeah he's around. There just that's that's where all
the pleasure palaces.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
Are, Yeah pompeii Was Panama City beach Before god was
like that's too.

Speaker 6 (35:36):
Much, right that's a good way to put.

Speaker 5 (35:39):
It, Yeah AND i, mean like you, Know caesar's father
in law has a villa. THERE i don't know if
you've been following. This but the papyri that were buried
By Mount, vesuvius there's like all these ancient scrolls is
ancient library the decoding With.

Speaker 1 (35:56):
Ai, OKAY i don't THINK i read. That it's google,
it It's.

Speaker 5 (36:00):
Herculaneum what's it called The Scroll prize or The Vesuvious,
challenge and it's like rolled up and, hardened right, RIGHT
i have to LIKE x, right, yeah THEY x ray it,
Anyway so all that's you, know everybody's got their nicest
villas down.

Speaker 6 (36:15):
There.

Speaker 5 (36:16):
Anyway that's Where sulla goes and, uh you know he's
not In rome for the last few years of his.
Life uh, Yeah and you, KNOW i THINK i think
his his like leadership. Mistake if you care, about you,
know keeping the constitution you founded, stable you're gonna you're
gonna stick, around, Right but but Instead sola goes off

(36:36):
and he kind of entrusts things to lesser, man maybe his, minions, yeah.

Speaker 6 (36:42):
Who were Less pompey And.

Speaker 5 (36:43):
Crasses.

Speaker 3 (36:44):
Yeah, Yeah And pompey was kind of a lesser. MAN i,
MEAN i don't, know like he was kind of not
the brightest.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Guy.

Speaker 5 (36:51):
Right, well he's, competent, right he's you, know he's, reliable
but you compare him To, sulah especially if you compare
him to, See, yeah he just doesn't have he doesn't
he's a good military, commander he doesn't have.

Speaker 6 (37:04):
The political knack, right you.

Speaker 5 (37:05):
Know, Uh and so he's always relying on smart guys
around him to give him advice and he's kind of.
Inscrutable but, YEAH i think later on When pompey became
the greatest commander in, room he kind of didn't know
what to do with.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
It, yeah you.

Speaker 5 (37:25):
Just wanted to go back out and find another. War,
yeah it was like his happy.

Speaker 3 (37:28):
Place he was almost like a patent type of. Guy,
yeah like just really was only comfortable on the. Battlefield,
yeah what are some before we get into some other,
people what are some lesser known stories About sola that
you Find and because we love to dive into the
minutia of like did a whole episode on just like
graffiti IN, pompeii because that's all hyper well preserved and

(37:51):
all that graffiti is super. Funny and LIKE i, said
we did the sort of essentially like, sexuality like a
broad thing of sexuality and In rome and how like
they thought like blowjobs were gross and. Pathetic, yeah like
you were like if you if you if you were
a guy and got a, blowjob it was you were
like impotent, basically like you couldn't hard without assistance or

(38:17):
something like. That and, yeah like all the slave stuff,
obviously but so we like, That we like the. Fund
there's just so many, funny little like societal quirks of that,
culture that ancient pre even for the most Part christianity
culture that that just has the norms are entirely.

Speaker 5 (38:34):
Different, YEAH i think sla is, WELL i don't, know
there's there's some funny stories about. Him when he's In.
Greece so he he's like before he fights The Civil,
war kind of in the middle of. It he gets
sent off as a commander to go fight this enemy

(38:54):
Of rome who's starting this Rebellion mithridates and they're fighting
this war In greece and he's like Sieging. Athens he's
gonna eventually just you, know almost, killed like slaughter everybody
in the city after he. Capture, right it's a sad,
story but he's got to he's got to like get

(39:19):
funds to build more siege engines or. Something so he
goes and he sends to the Oracle delphi and the you,
know basically he wants to plunder the treasures of the
temple At. Delphi all these these oracles are super, rich
they've got all this these gold. Dedications and there's a
story that he sends his emissary to go and demand

(39:42):
funds from From, apollo the god, there and, uh you
know he asks this emissary asks the council At, delphi you,
know this is What sula, needs show your loyalty To.
Rome and and the council comes back the next day
and they're, like you, know one of our one of
our councilmen was was walking the temple and he Heard
apollo playing the liar from The temple Of, delphi a plaintive,

(40:06):
song a sad. Song and So saulah's, emissary he's A greek,
guy and he gets back and he's, Like, salah you,
know the god gave a. Message he doesn't really think
that it's appropriate for you to plunder the temple. Treasures
he was playing the sad song and the temple and you,
know as A, greek he's feeling like this would be very, impious.
Right he really Wants salla to kind of drop. It,

(40:26):
yeah And sallah, says, oh my, Friend, cappus you don't
Realize apollo was playing a joyous. Song it was he
was supporting our military. Campaign now go back and take take.
Richly the god is on our. Side so you, know
portents are something that he's really good at kind of.
Manipulating there's another. One so the guy just goes. Back he's, like,

(40:49):
No salah said it was, happy, Yeah and the council's
like all, right and they just kind of cave and and,
so you, know plundering the treasures The temple Of. Delfi
they take this gigantic silver bowl That, creasus this Famous lydian,
king dedicated like five hundred years. Earlier and it's like

(41:11):
it's like if The Mona lisa were made of silver
and it was a giant. Bowl he plundered, That, yeah
and then they cut it up into four pieces because
it was too big to carry on a. Donkey so
he destroys it before he takes it off and melts
it down and you, know turns it into coins or
whatever in order to, weapons in order to like murder

(41:31):
everybody In athens and, well you, know punish them for
their sins of betraying because they were like A roman
subject and this is Rough roman, justice that it's, finest.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
Still better than throwing spaghetti sauce on The, Mona, Lisa,
yeah For, earth For.

Speaker 5 (41:44):
Earth at least there was a purpose to, it you,
know at least there was some HIGHER.

Speaker 3 (41:48):
I i went out and just let my car run
for an hour AFTER i saw. That every time anyone
throws any soup on, ART i just let my car run.

Speaker 2 (41:58):
FROM i started buying night on fire gas. Appliances my
toaster ons on the. Gas, now, yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:04):
That's my reaction anytime that. HAPPENS i try to offset
their environmentalism by just and NOT i don't even disagree
with clean. ENERGY i just hate that so much that
it makes me want to light the earth on.

Speaker 5 (42:16):
FIRE i think we need to bring back Rough roman.

Speaker 3 (42:20):
JUSTICE i you know what's funny about that is, that
LIKE i read something once that The, ROMANS i, mean
they were, assholes, right like they would really put it to,
you but they saw themselves not even as.

Speaker 1 (42:31):
Rough they're just like we're the most Just.

Speaker 5 (42:33):
That's, yeah that's. True and this is the funny thing
About solid, too because he's, always you, know no matter
how bloodthirsty he gets or how it was just like
crushingly overweening in. Victory he's always, like this is your
this is what you. Deserved, yeah you asked for. It
i've tried to tell you here it. Is.

Speaker 3 (42:53):
Yeah they're just like upfront about it. There, yeah and
they it's almost like lanisters pay their debts, right like
it's just we're going to do this and if we,
succeed it's going to.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Happen and then it happens and the other side is,
like well come. On they're like, NO i mean we
told you.

Speaker 5 (43:08):
Yeah and and The athenians before they get, sacked you,
know they come out to plead With sola and they
try to tell him the. Story you, know our city
was founded by theseus a thousand years ago And, eumolpus
and you know that we defeated The, persians we saved The.
Greeks we're. Liberators And sauwa's, like shut. UP i didn't

(43:31):
come here for a history. LESSON i came to subdue your. Rebels,
now are you going to make peace on my terms or?
Not and they're, like, sir they go back in their.
City they don't make the. Peace so. Perfect he he's
both you, know a great appreciator of. Culture you, know
he knows all these, stories, right but he's not going

(43:51):
to be duped by, it by sentimentality because everybody else.
Was everybody's expecting him to go really easy On. Athens you,
know it's a great city of culture and learning and,
art and that's exactly why he makes an example of. Them,
yeah so not to be fucked.

Speaker 1 (44:04):
With, essentially.

Speaker 5 (44:08):
Where is he?

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Buried, Right he's Like.

Speaker 3 (44:12):
Alexander they don't know where his tomb, is which is
especially weird because.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
Apparently hopefully it's not Like, Alexander yeah was.

Speaker 1 (44:17):
Alive, no.

Speaker 3 (44:20):
But uh, yeah apparently his tomb disappeared even though HE
A i guess allegedly had a big one, yeah AND
b had a big funeral back when people were writing things.

Speaker 5 (44:29):
Down, YEAH i think they they made a huge effigy
of him an incense for his, funeral like a giant you,
know crusty incense. Sullah, yeah and they burned it and
then like the winds died down and then it started,
raining and it was, like, oh this is a bad
Important BUT i DON'T i.

Speaker 6 (44:48):
Don't think that we've ever found his.

Speaker 5 (44:50):
Tomb we.

Speaker 3 (44:50):
Haven't that's Why i'm shocked by that as compared to,
LIKE i, MEAN i feel like any most big people
from that, time they relatively known where they're.

Speaker 5 (44:58):
Buried, yeah we've got we've got this grave monument From
Scipio africanus', mom, No scipio's, granddaughter who's the mom of
the Gracky, like you can go See cornelia's. Grave, well
it's like a pedestal of a statue or. Something there's
all this amazing, stuff obviously the mausoleum Of augustus and

(45:20):
the tomb of The, scipios but nothing For.

Speaker 6 (45:22):
Solo you, know it's.

Speaker 5 (45:23):
Weird it is.

Speaker 3 (45:24):
Weird maybe that's one of the reasons he's kinda and
because ALSO i guess his Did plutarch take from his
biography or autobiography or?

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Whatever, yeah because his autobiography is.

Speaker 5 (45:34):
Gone, Yeah AND i think this is one of his,
superpowers is. Storytelling you. Know, yeah he's practicing in his, twenties,
right and you, know the raunchy. Theater but he ends
up writing his own autobiography or his memoirs and they're.
Lost BUT i think this is the source for so
many of the wacky stories that we get About. Solo,

(45:56):
yeah you, know The delphi, thing there's, Another there's all
these importanse you. Know it was Said. Flutarcar it was
said That sola had a. Dream it's Like sola said
that he had a dream right right there with The.
God the goddess visits him and she puts a lightning
bolt in his, hands and she points to his enemies lined,
up and he just throws lightning bolts at them all

(46:16):
and destroys them, all and he knows That god is
on His he was a big.

Speaker 3 (46:19):
Dreamer allegedly he knew he was gonna die of liver
failure from a, dream, right but that just feels like
accurate to his. Life, yeah like he was just feels
like you make that. Happen, yeah he's drunk for the
million day in a, row and it.

Speaker 1 (46:31):
Was like he was gonna kill.

Speaker 6 (46:32):
ME i can make that. Happen yeah about?

Speaker 4 (46:36):
Wine, yeah.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
YEAH i wanted to talk about Obviously caesar as, well
because it's talking About.

Speaker 1 (46:45):
Rome so there's what it.

Speaker 5 (46:47):
IS i.

Speaker 1 (46:47):
Have here's my take On.

Speaker 3 (46:49):
CAESAR i want your opinion on this BECAUSE i you
actually know what you're talking, about And i'm just a fucking.
Guy do We my opinion is we pretty much entirely
View caesar are like starting point On caesar as a,
Person our almost default view is still based on two

(47:10):
thousand year Old augustine.

Speaker 1 (47:12):
Propaganda m m. Hm like it's really not an accurate
taking of his life and who he was as a.

Speaker 3 (47:21):
PERSON i mean the fact, that, like and it's gone
all it's permeating all the way through.

Speaker 1 (47:25):
History, Right you've Got William shakespeare writing about.

Speaker 3 (47:28):
Him several countries that have nothing to do With rome
of name their Leaders, caesar Like kaiser And, czar and
THEN i mean he was even even in like the
Show rome from two thousand and, six two thousand and.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Seven he's fucking. Cool, Yeah and honestly it.

Speaker 3 (47:47):
Seems justified in the narrative of that story for the most,
part or at least no less or more justified than anyone.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
Else, Right but isn't he kind of a huge piece of?

Speaker 3 (48:00):
Shit like that's WHERE i actually live with. Him is
he brought down The? Republic he. Didn't he was never
going to give up the. Dictatorship and the biggest thing with,
me and this is one thing That sullah knew that
you mentioned, earlier and one thing that always comes out
is he was like openly insanely psychotically. Ambitious is the

(48:23):
story about him weeping at An alexander statue true or
just a? Myth, like, essentially for those who know the,
stories he goes to An alexander statue and starts crying
because he was already a little bit older Than alexander
and an accomplished.

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Nothing as opposed to all the.

Speaker 3 (48:41):
Things so essentially, like he seems like a man that
from the beginning wanted his name written at the top
of the history, books regardless of what that.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Cost anyone or, anything including his own. Country that to me.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
Sounds like what the starting point For caesar should, be
but instead it's just like essentially what we.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Have but he Nicknamed cleopatra The Golden, throat so that's pretty,
sick that.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
Is, Look i'm not saying you didn't do anything.

Speaker 4 (49:08):
Cool he bribe, pirates, right just hung, out.

Speaker 5 (49:12):
Conquered, france had a lot of great. Girlfriends, yeah a lots.
Wives good good. Question i'm, well SO i think if
you're going to Take caesar's, side and SO i MEAN
i on my, SHOW i basically serially have to tell

(49:34):
the biographies of men who were mortal, enemies, RIGHT i have,
to like see things from their perspective and kind of
get on their, side AND i try to like tell
the story from their from their. Perspective BUT i think
That CAESAR a is as ambitious as anybody in. History
like he's tip, top like gonna make this. Happen his

(49:57):
The caesar story on like.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
A level of like holy and or something like, that.

Speaker 6 (50:01):
Where it's totally man of.

Speaker 5 (50:03):
Destiny this is WHAT i was built, for born For
alexander for that. Matter, yeah, right but he's always. Able
so Like Dan carlin called his series on The Celtic
wars The Celtic, holocaust, right, right maybe he was just
a mass murderer hitler in. Disguise you, know he's justifying

(50:27):
it to himself at least as doing it in the
name Of.

Speaker 6 (50:30):
Rome AND i think.

Speaker 5 (50:31):
That he's so he's a populist as opposed to the aristocratic.
Party he's taking on a lot of. CORRUPTION i, mean
he's challenging a lot of the kind of you, know
The roman. Elite they're they're super, rich they're out of,
touch a lot of them are fat and not that

(50:53):
good at what they're supposed to be, doing and they're
really jealous of their. Power so you, know he's got a,
story at least in his, head that these people don't
deserve the privileges that they, have and they're trying to
tamp down anybody who would challenge their. Prerogative, so if
you want to take his, SIDE i think he's a
kind of he's an, interesting kind of cool outsider that

(51:15):
wants to shake up The roman. System and HE i
think he has this perspective. Now, granted so that The
ROMAN i don't know state is not just the city Of,
rome but it's all the provinces, too and he wants
to bring in provincial reforms to cut down on. Corruption,

(51:38):
granted he, does, like you, know kill possibly a million
galls in the conquest.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
Of call that Number i've heard like disputed or.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
Whatever BUT i feel like that's NOT i, MEAN i
feel like that's a pretty like reasonable.

Speaker 1 (51:50):
Number it's like an eight year long war all Of,
France that's What i'm.

Speaker 6 (51:54):
Saying kunt of like famine and you.

Speaker 1 (51:57):
Know secondary, effects secondary.

Speaker 5 (51:59):
Effects why don't we out those?

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Numbers but whenever A chinese war, happens, right they just
like a million people, died like oh, yeah, probably, yeah,
probably we don't.

Speaker 3 (52:05):
Care sounds about, Right but like it's it's some people are,
like it was a long time.

Speaker 1 (52:08):
Ago there are two million.

Speaker 3 (52:09):
People but it's, like, yeah but it's the population Of
austin spread through all Of france, essentially which is not
that out of the.

Speaker 1 (52:17):
Question, yeah for that time.

Speaker 5 (52:18):
PERIOD i think IT'S i think it's very. PLAUSIBLE i,
mean but it's not that he was going in there
and like genociding, them right, right right, Right he's always
going to give him a chance to make. Terms he's
and you, know you could, say, hey the reason that
The gauls don't want him there is because they want

(52:41):
to fight their own wars amongst each other and kill
and name and decapitate each, other because that's what they.
Do that's how they kind of you, know that's the
game that they're. Playing These gallic nobles are like constantly
warring for supremacy amongst. Themselves, Right so they probably wouldn't
have killed that many people in that shortest span of.
Time but maybe you could say that he's spared further

(53:05):
lives by you, know imposing The roman peace for. Generations
BUT i assume at some point there was a population
boom after all the infrastructure and everything came in and.

Speaker 6 (53:16):
It would have taken a long.

Speaker 5 (53:17):
Time yeah, yeah, YEAH i knew The Roman france becomes
really wealthy and cultured and you, know, so and they
would they did kind of pose a threat To.

Speaker 6 (53:29):
Roum it.

Speaker 5 (53:30):
Wasn't it was only in the generation Of soul And
marius that a, massive massive army Of celts And germans
just like swooped into Northern italy and was like Threatening.
Rome so there was a real kind of military reason
to do. This was it WAS adbc or you, know SIXTY.
Bc that was how they did.

Speaker 3 (53:47):
Things, Again that's WHY i don't even talk about The
celtic genoside or, whatever because that to me is just, like,
well shit.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
Happened she happens a thousand years after.

Speaker 3 (53:56):
That no, One no one Thinks Genghis khan is the
greatest monster in, history, right even THOUGH i mean goddamn,
right like he killed a lot of People, Baghdad, yeah,
yeah like nuked. Bag actually was even him or was
he allied by that?

Speaker 4 (54:09):
Point, no they did The cohn, family yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:13):
Yeah but back To. Caeesaron that that's WHY.

Speaker 3 (54:15):
I only hold sort of the political stuff Against caesar
for the most, part because from the perspective.

Speaker 4 (54:21):
Of like he is sort of almost like a great
man in political.

Speaker 3 (54:24):
HISTORY i, mean the military history is almost, Unimpeachable like
he was a great, general, RIGHT i don't think that's.
Debatable but the political, stuff the ambition over, country that's
kind of HOW i look at.

Speaker 1 (54:39):
Him, yeah but that is absolutely.

Speaker 3 (54:42):
Not what the starting point is for most people In western.
History and it seems to me that that has to
go all the way back To augustus sort of justifying
his position.

Speaker 1 (54:53):
As the heir To.

Speaker 5 (54:53):
Caesar and, well the first guy to do it Was caesar,
himself because so he wrote this commentary on this a
wars is with his own, pen and you, know it's
kind of Like Selah caesar is his own greatest. Propagandist
BUT i think that he has a pretty good. Case
so in the in the breakup of you, know in

(55:15):
the breakdown before The Civil, war he really. Does he
really tries to avoid a, war and the only alternative
he had to not to like fighting the war was to,
basically you, know self, cancel to say all, Right i'm
no longer relevant In roman. Politics and so he's motivated

(55:38):
by this sense of, like, HEY i JUST i just
conquered all of gall for you guys and brought tons
of money into the. Treasury you, KNOW I i've made
the poor rich blah blah. Blah i've accomplished, BASICALLY i.
HAVE i have done better in the game than anybody alive.

Speaker 3 (55:57):
Today probably the biggest win since what Maybe, skippyo.

Speaker 5 (56:02):
Yeah skippyo Or pompy, arguably but you know that was
fifteen years. Earlier and Now pompy's kind of an old,
man And caesar's, like, HEY i deserve at least as.

Speaker 6 (56:14):
Much credit as this.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
Guy and so by saying you're going to prosecute me
to death.

Speaker 6 (56:20):
Or you, know.

Speaker 5 (56:24):
UNLESS i fight a civil, war it's kind of the
choice he's faced. With you, know he's, saying all, right
is this game a real? Game do we have rules
to this game of the like? Honor is there is
there honor In? Rome? Left and SO i think that
it was his opponents and. Transigence i'm, like. Proceed So
i've told a story From pompey's. PERSPECTIVE i Think pompey

(56:47):
kind of took bad Advice. CATO i told a story
From cato's. PERSPECTIVE i Think cato was kind of high
on his own supply about the dignity of the republic
and really it.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Was blind to what they realities of it.

Speaker 5 (57:00):
Were, yeah and like that that it's this kind of
personal factional hatred that the that the nobles have Towards.
Caesar Uh, SO i don't, KNOW i THINK i think
his enemies had it coming.

Speaker 4 (57:16):
Enemies or everybody that was older Than.

Speaker 2 (57:18):
Caesar but just like OLD nba players hating no CURRENT
nba players Like lebron or.

Speaker 5 (57:22):
Something, yeah it's like. That it's like it's like a
bunch of, uh you, know has been well maybe maybe
they were great in their, day right right right right,
now they're like these young bucks don't, know they don't
have respect for the old. Ways and and and it's like,
envy you, know they if he, wins they're they're gonna
Have they're going to lose their. Influence they're not going

(57:43):
to get put on the you, KNOW Nba draft picks
right chat. Show they don't get they don't get a
triumph they don't they don't get the. Triumphs, yeah and
and so he kind of he was a threat to them,
politically they're gonna like go and killed. Him he's a merciful.
Guy caesar's famous. Clemency, yeah he spares his. Enemies he's,

(58:06):
like he's very.

Speaker 1 (58:07):
Mild he doesn't want to go to the solo.

Speaker 5 (58:08):
Route he doesn't want to go to the solar. Routes
he wants to be the. Unsolo and you, know he
can be, ruthless but he also knows he's got a
legacy to. Preserve and so and think he makes good
on his word and nobody thought he, would but he.
Did you, know he. Doesn't he doesn't slaughter his. Enemies
act it was the dictator for.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Life, then kind of a thing of self, preservation.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
You might. Think but, okay to be fair for your
for your. Case, Yeah caesar's a. MEGALOMANIAC i think once
he wins the civil war and all of his enemies
are kind of. Scattered he's he's been spending a lot
of time With cleopatra In. Egypt you, know she's a,

(58:50):
queen she's maybe a, GODDESS i, believe you, know she's
she's the pharaoh or the. Pharaoh, yes, Uh and so
he starts to, think, hey maybe maybe this is a better,
system or Maybe i'm the chosen one or.

Speaker 6 (59:06):
SOMETHING i, mean it would.

Speaker 5 (59:09):
Be hard not to believe that if you were a Successful,
yeah because he had. WON i think what he did
was harder than What alexander. Did i'm not saying that
he's greater Than, alexander, right but you, know he had
to win in politics and in propaganda in a way
That alexander didn't have. To, so you, know you're asking

(59:30):
a guy who's kind of slowly converted to being A caesar.
BRO i THINK i think he deserves a second. Look
AND i THINK Hbo, rome you, know they were too
mean To. Cicero cicero's becomes a kind of fruity. Waffler,
YEAH i think that was, Unfair BUT i think they

(59:50):
Got caesar just.

Speaker 6 (59:51):
Right he was a great. Manifestory, okay, okay.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
What are Some it's more of a broad. Question what
are some underrated villains in the history Of? Rome like
we obviously Know nero and we've discussed The Little fishes
to some extent With. Tiberius everyone knows commonists From gladiator
and stuff like, that.

Speaker 4 (01:00:15):
Or actually their actual enemies Like. Cannibal, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:00:18):
Yeah what are some underrated even like weird or, whatever
like villains that tickle.

Speaker 5 (01:00:22):
You you, know we need to have a series On
mithridates Of. Pontus so this is the guy That slah was. Fighting,
yeah and the dude is still alive twenty years, later
and he's been basically waging war On rome it soft
like cold wars hot wars for almost three. Decades pompey

(01:00:43):
finally gets, them or Actually pompy like you, know kind
of defeats him a couple of times in, battle and
THEN i think it's like mithree. Days his son ends
up betraying him and he ends up like taking. Poison sad,
story but that guy, WAS i, mean so he he's
like six.' three he wears an a lion, skin hat

(01:01:06):
like a lion, head hat Like. LIKE hercules i was about,
to say was that a Nod?

Speaker 1 (01:01:10):
To, hercules.

Speaker 5 (01:01:11):
Yeah. Totally yeah he was always afraid of, being poisoned
and so he took all this like light doses of
poison when he was younger because because his mom was
always trying to. Kill him, OH okay i think she
liked the other son, or something and he like develops
this incredible tolerance towards, towards poison so he has to take.

(01:01:32):
A lot when he, kills himself he Almost. Defeats rome
he makes this alliance with This rebel sertorious Who's. In
spain there's this one night where he murders Eighty thousand
Romans and Italians, in asia like All, throughout asia they
like they keep the. Conspiracy secret and then one night. A,

(01:01:56):
purge yeah It's like, cristall knock, you know like going
in and Just, murdering romans women and Children, in turkey Basically. In,
turkey yeah he pours gold down the throat Of, corrupt
no not This Guy, mannius aquilias A corrupt. Roman governor So,
before crassus Before the persian king did It, to crissis if,

(01:02:19):
He did mithrudates was the guy who came up with that.

Speaker 6 (01:02:22):
Cool, idea yeah so he's got a lot going.

Speaker 5 (01:02:26):
For him and there's a great story In the Life,
OF lucullus I Think blutark's Life, of Lucullus where mithrudates
is Like his he's got like a concubine and a
sister and they get captured and they they were Instructed
by mithrudates to commit suicide if If the romans, caught

(01:02:47):
them and so they they kind of they kind of
one of them commit suicide and the Other like mithruddes's
eunuchs like murder her in this Very tragic so he's
he's probably A, super okay sounds kind.

Speaker 4 (01:03:01):
OF dope i don't know six three you didn't, say
it but probably.

Speaker 3 (01:03:04):
Jacked, CERTAINLY yeah i will say just From Playing Rome,
total war the, FIRST one I hate pontus so. Goddamn
much that is the one faction that really just Annoys
the christ out of.

Speaker 5 (01:03:15):
You, constantly yeah that's probably. On, purpose yeah they were
thorn in. The side oh, my god it's. Never ending
you just want them.

Speaker 6 (01:03:22):
To die.

Speaker 5 (01:03:25):
Scythed, chariots.

Speaker 6 (01:03:26):
Too, YEP yeah i can't forget the size of any.

Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
Financial chariots just Fucking.

Speaker 3 (01:03:30):
Dimer uh so you're kind of having, A moment i,
feel Like because roman history and Ain't The roman empire
is kind of like in. The, zeitgeist yeah like it's
almost a meme at, this point like men Love The
roman Empire and america Is The, roman empire or Like
the romans basically. Your, alpha yeah, well yeah your alpha

(01:03:50):
if you Like the romans and stuff, like that what
Do you what's something you see a lot of people
get wrong in their Admiration, For rome like it's, a
misconception or they don't just understand what they're, maybe ADMIRING or.

Speaker 6 (01:04:08):
I can't think. Of Anything the romans. Are, Awesome no
i'm not even.

Speaker 1 (01:04:12):
SAYING that i Think ancient.

Speaker 3 (01:04:13):
Romans sweet but if there's anything that they, just, like
well like one thing for me that's always funny is like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:17):
There's a lot Of bad roman history that they repeat
or like, you know you're like you're.

Speaker 4 (01:04:23):
I mean just. Wrong information it's or like.

Speaker 3 (01:04:25):
It's a lot of dudes that are like, hell Yeah
like i'm like a big beefy straight man and just
Like ancient romans and, it's, like yeah you know they Were, absolutely.

Speaker 4 (01:04:34):
Yeah if you want To, be roman you Gotta do, roman. Stuff,
guys yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Dudes constantly.

Speaker 6 (01:04:41):
It was frowned on a little bit More in rome
than it Was.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
In.

Speaker 5 (01:04:43):
Greece, yeah, UH well i think that too many men
are obsessed With The roman empire and not enough ore
obsessed With The.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Roman republic, that SEE that's i agree.

Speaker 3 (01:04:55):
With, that yeah because the republic a was kind of
NEW for, i mean anything else Like the republic exists
in its time period one of.

Speaker 5 (01:05:03):
A kind, i Mean the greeks are like this is
this is the.

Speaker 6 (01:05:07):
Best.

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
Constitution ever, you know we've been trying to figure this
out for hundreds. Of years we, have democracies we, have
oligarchies we have tyrants, and kings.

Speaker 6 (01:05:16):
But the romans figured out how to mix them.

Speaker 5 (01:05:17):
All, together yeah, and THAT like i think their political
system was the secrets of their, success, It.

Speaker 3 (01:05:27):
Right like that is THE thing i always read about
with Like The, punic, wars right is that it's all
should get to this.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Question TOO so i saw a.

Speaker 3 (01:05:33):
FUNNY thing i think it was almost like sort of
like a it's not, a PERVASIVE but i did read
it somewhere where some someone, was like the, wrong country
for lack of a, better term.

Speaker 4 (01:05:44):
Are you about to hit us With bad?

Speaker 5 (01:05:45):
Roman?

Speaker 3 (01:05:46):
History yeah, well yeah but from someone, else me they're
the wrong country Won The punic wars because they were
like they were like If the, carthaginians won it would
have been this like almost like egalitarian like multicultural trading
situation in in, you Know the mediterranean.

Speaker 5 (01:06:05):
Women might have got, the suffrage, you know in two hundred, adah, right, no, yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
Yeah but it is TO me i like, READING that i,
was like, you KNOW maybe i can SEE that pov
a little bit if you really, like trade But the
romans traded a. Ton too but also it's just like
there was no fucking way to win a long term War. With,
rome yeah With, the, Republic right and they do.

Speaker 5 (01:06:30):
It by by like convincing people to want to Fight
for rome who aren't, even citizens, you know, their allies
and they get.

Speaker 1 (01:06:41):
Did they have a lot of like, Half, citizens.

Speaker 5 (01:06:43):
Yeah, they have Like The latin ride and then the Colony,
the yeah there's various kind of gradations.

Speaker 2 (01:06:50):
Of just reference In The, punic wars they would just
lose a one hundred thousand people from shipwreck and it's like,
all right build, more, boats, yeah reload let's go. More.

Speaker 6 (01:06:59):
Back, yet yeah that's why.

Speaker 5 (01:07:01):
They're unstoppable they're like they're able to kind of capture
the hearts and souls of like a, whole peninsula like All,
of italy even though they are some of these people are,
you know never have any hope Of becoming, roman, citizens, right, right.
RIGHT right i think that's, pretty amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:07:19):
Is it still where a lot of them, like well
aside from us, ruling ourselves they're essentially better than any
other alternative because it seems like once they took control of,
an area life was pretty okay for the, most part
compared to maybe being under some sort of king or
something like that from, another empire especially from an empire

(01:07:43):
certainly For the latin or For the, italian peninsula like
a much more, foreign group, Right, RIGHT yeah i think.

Speaker 5 (01:07:50):
That's Fair the. Roman governors one of the Things that
caesar's trying to, clean up saw is trying to. CLEAN up,
i mean everybody's claiming they're trying to clean. It up
Is like governor, goes in Say to sicily and a
Bunch of Greeks, in sicily and, you know, he's, like,
well uh you want to you got to dispute with

(01:08:11):
your neighbor over. A, border well if you would you
hand me a painting, OR two I might i might
kind of rethink. My. Position yeah so there's all kinds
of corruption, and plunder and some of us just like outright,
you know, you know sending your troops to go and
seize a bunch of Statues. Or yeah so there is a.

Speaker 6 (01:08:32):
Lot of that.

Speaker 5 (01:08:33):
Going On the publican And the pharisee And, the gospels
Like the publican is the. Bad guy he's the. Tax
collector tax collectors are always extorting people for more than
they should at the. Same time, you know it's like
that passage In The Monty python's Life, Of brian what
Do the romans ever do? For us while, the roads,
the aqueducts, you know there's, a lot there's a lot

(01:08:55):
to kind of tempt the, Upper, classes yeah to to
get on board so that.

Speaker 3 (01:09:00):
They won't finance the ant, The, rebellion, yeah exactly which
is why was the Where The jewish zealots were that
mostly a lower.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
CLASS movement i actually have no idea.

Speaker 5 (01:09:12):
That's the that's the the story that that The the
celts is kind of like grassroots.

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
Seventy eighty when the temple was. Finally, destroyed yeah but.

Speaker 5 (01:09:21):
It even starts In so Harod the great is another really,
fascinating figure who who's this kind of Half jew jew
That the romans eventually make the king and HE had,
i mean he's Like a jewish Ruler of judea and
he's got to really put down some, Some, zealots yeah

(01:09:42):
because you know they Have like Temple to augustus in
a City in caesareah and what is? This idolatry and,
it's like don't you realize the game that we're? Playing
here yeahs a. Great power i'm trying to keep. Things
peopful but.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
He wasn't was he the ONE that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:00):
I was he On mark antony's side in the axiom
and then Went to augustus and, Was like i'll be.

Speaker 5 (01:10:06):
Your friend so Conveniently, for harod he he had some
other commitment detaining him for the actual battle. Of acting yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:10:14):
That's, convenient yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:10:15):
That's nice so but he ends up kind of switching
sides at the right time and getting getting Back on
augustus is, good side. Really crafty we will choose.

Speaker 2 (01:10:25):
The, winningside, Yes, WHOEVER yeah i can't be the day,
good luck, have fun help.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
You.

Speaker 5 (01:10:31):
Win yeah so there's all kinds of reasons to Be on,
rome's side especially the. Victor's side, but, YEAH no i
mean he's like, a huge, you know oppressor of Particularly.

Speaker 6 (01:10:49):
Of, ZEALOTS yeah i mean in his.

Speaker 5 (01:10:51):
Own region you gotta do what you, GOTTA do.

Speaker 3 (01:10:53):
I guess But the rose is kind, of funny like
they are Almost like napoleon or even Maybe the Germans
In World war, one especially they just had so they
could just throw bodies, at you like they could just
conscript people faster than you could possibly comprehend and whereas
everyone Were the greeks at that point when they Were,
taking greece were they still kind of on that sort
of like farmer hop light system where it wasn't that

(01:11:16):
it wasn't Like a marian reform where it was yeah more.

Speaker 5 (01:11:19):
Or LESS and, i mean well they're Fighting the macedonian,
kings too who, have mercenaries but mercenaries are never going to,
fight like, you know. Not, that yeah so it's it's
it's not a big contest when they Get.

Speaker 1 (01:11:34):
To, greece yeah they're kind of cooked at.

Speaker 5 (01:11:36):
That. Point, yeah yeah it's another interesting story. For sure
a lot of a Lot of, roman plundering, you Know,
sacking corinth and it wasn't it wasn't a, you know a.

Speaker 6 (01:11:48):
Hay ride, let's, say.

Speaker 3 (01:11:49):
Yeah what do you think some, so again people Love
The roman empire and they kind of get the rightfully
so like the big notes because, it's.

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
There, you know you're casual.

Speaker 3 (01:12:00):
About it but what do you think of, some underrated
lasting Legacies of rome that that don't get talked.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
About, enough.

Speaker 5 (01:12:11):
Well, you Know The senate house has the the FoST
case as one of our signs IN The, us senates
which is like where we get the.

Speaker 6 (01:12:23):
WORD fascism.

Speaker 5 (01:12:26):
I think people don't appreciate that we're arguably a. Fascist country,
you know like the The lit, lincoln, monuments this these
are the Symbols of. Roman power it's like bundle. Of
STICKS and i think that the way that it worked
was the so that like if you're, a console you
go through the city and you got these licktors who
hold these bundles, of sticks the Foster cas it's like

(01:12:48):
they're like.

Speaker 3 (01:12:48):
Wood rods that's one of the things In the eagles, Claw,
right yes sticks, and, arrows.

Speaker 5 (01:12:53):
Yes yes and so the idea, is like if you
know you got to clear out of craw you can
kind of shove them with, these sticks and if things,
get ugly you unwrap the sticks and suddenly you've got
a bunch of clubs that you.

Speaker 6 (01:13:06):
Can use, so they, you know they.

Speaker 5 (01:13:07):
Symbolize power but we've it used to be that those
were like a symbol of law and order for many
many Kind of.

Speaker 6 (01:13:15):
Europeanoid.

Speaker 5 (01:13:16):
People, yeah yeah, nineteenth century and then it went in
Another direction italy in. The THIRTIES but i think that
THERE are, i mean the law and order Tradition of
rome is, really important but you know a lot of
ways they they Like preserved greek science and passed on the,

(01:13:39):
you know the Philosophy. Of greece cicero is a big figure.
In this he translated all the at least the arguments
in the Terms the greek philosophers.

Speaker 3 (01:13:47):
And the kind they're kind of the baton bearer Between
the greeks AND like i guess the monks that wrote
it all.

Speaker 1 (01:13:53):
Down, afterwards yeah stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:13:54):
Like, that, Yeah TOTALLY and i mean it's certainly the
Case that christianity would have had a very different story
if if there wasn't Like a, roman piece.

Speaker 3 (01:14:04):
Probably, THE roads I, mean christianity and then Probably nor
islam exists Without The.

Speaker 1 (01:14:09):
Roman, empire yeah Certainly not, Islam, either, yeah Yeah because
christianity remains some weird.

Speaker 5 (01:14:13):
Little cult and if it all just ends up being
the dead dead scroll TYPE of i forget what those
people will. Called scenes, yeah, yeah yeah it just ends
up being like a couple of weirdos in. The desert
then it, goes nowhere right and then obviously if that,
Goes nowhere islam doesn't, even start and history.

Speaker 4 (01:14:28):
Is something else. Pops up maybe could.

Speaker 5 (01:14:32):
Have been the Cult of mythris we could all, be uh,
you know for instead, of baptism we, could all, you
know do the thing where you go under a bowl
that's on, A, grate yeah and just they slaughter the
bowl over your blood pours.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
Down. Blood, yeah yeah that's.

Speaker 4 (01:14:46):
MORE metal i would actually.

Speaker 1 (01:14:47):
Prefer that but we can make.

Speaker 5 (01:14:49):
That happen we could bring. It, back yeah We're.

Speaker 1 (01:14:50):
In texas we can get a. Cow.

Speaker 6 (01:14:53):
Easily yeah you gotta got to slaughter. It, Anyway, right
yeah we're.

Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
Gonna eat it no.

Speaker 3 (01:14:57):
Matter what let me just. LAY under i don't know
how to dress A wow field dress a. Fucking steer
but somebody. Else's, problem yeah that's not. My problem we
just leave it for them. To handle startup.

Speaker 6 (01:15:07):
Opportunity there.

Speaker 3 (01:15:10):
AND then i again like we love doing like the
really really like minute Stuff. On ROME like, i said
the Graffiti, and pompeii they're weird sort of views, on
sexuality not, weird even but just like their views.

Speaker 6 (01:15:24):
On sexuality have you talked About the bona?

Speaker 3 (01:15:26):
Dea, Scandal NO so i was gonna, ask you what
are some funny little like shit.

Speaker 5 (01:15:31):
Like that this is one of my. Favorite Stories So
julius caesar is the pont the head Priests. Of, rome
yeah and he's got as part of, his duties they
have to host a big party at his house for all,
the ladies all, the top top, top Ladies the mishaviship
well maybe, not heard but, you know The grand Dames
of rome get together For The Good. Goddess festival dea,

(01:15:56):
Means goddess bona, means good so. Bonadet is it's a woman.
Only festival and it happens the house of The. Pont
effects so. It, Happened julius caesar's current wife. Was there
his mom. Was there she's kind OF. The mc and there's,

(01:16:16):
this young, you know dashing Aristocrat named clodius who wants To.
Cuckold caesar basically perfectly wants to Get with, caesar's wife
and so he dresses up as a flute girl and
he sneaks into. The party, you know fifty one hundred

(01:16:37):
women in, this mansion, no Men and clodius is like
looking around with his, wig on trying to look, you,
know soft and he's kind of trying to find where
he can Get, With pompeia. Caesar's wife and before they
are able to arrange, their soire.

Speaker 6 (01:16:57):
One of the other servant girls.

Speaker 5 (01:16:59):
Come up and, she's, like hey go get me a
Jug and clodius is like tries not, to talk but
eventually he has to. Say something IT'S like i don't
know where, they are and she's like what that's, A
man like you can't pull off, The falsetto and so

(01:17:20):
she screams and runs and TELLS the Mc, and clodius,
you know meanwhile hides under a bed, or something and
so they, scoured them like the. Party stops it's, of
course it's it's a it's an Incredibly sacred. August thing
the mystery like no man should be allowed to. See
it and the penalty for a man defiling the mysteries.

(01:17:43):
IT'S death i think you get buried alive.

Speaker 4 (01:17:45):
Or, something yeah it was like the same thing with THE.

Speaker 5 (01:17:48):
Vessel, veri yeah it's like it's Like A vessel virgin
caliber religious offense because this is Like the Hearth. OF
rome i, mean yeah you're like threatening the stability of
the whole. Freaking empire so They find clodius and, you
know they have, him there, you know and and basically
call off the Whole book. Bonadeta scandal and somehow he

(01:18:09):
gets away and and In and caesar's, not there, of
Course but, caesar's like, funny enough is kind of political Ally.
Of clodius so, you know the whole kind of you screw,
my WiFi screw yours is happening, somehow decadent, you know,
civil war that sort of thing tends, to happen And

(01:18:30):
Like french revolution kind.

Speaker 6 (01:18:32):
Of times but so there's.

Speaker 5 (01:18:35):
A trial clodius goes on trial and, he, SAYS oh
I was i was in another city at.

Speaker 6 (01:18:42):
The time that couldn't have been.

Speaker 5 (01:18:43):
Me, a yeah he has, an alibi and the albis
you could have back then. Are, incredible, YEAH yeah i,
wasn't there. Wasn't there and And so caesar's mom is
a witness at, the trial and, she's like that is.
The guy there's no. Mistaking it she's like one of
the most respected People. In Rome but codius, brings up,

(01:19:06):
you know witnesses to say that he was he Was
at beauvila or wherever, he was and seventy, miles away
and so nobody's, buying it and the trial basically the
kid is going to. Get executed And then crassus. Comes
in crasus is a Buddy of, caesar's too and They

(01:19:28):
asked caesar to by, The, way caesar would you be,
A Witness and, caesar says, you, KNOW don't i didn't.
SEE anything i don't know. What happened he divorces his
wife because, you know it looked bad because, everybody, Knew
right but they, asked him why did you divorce your,
wife then and That's when, caesar, Says well caesar's wife

(01:19:49):
must be. Above suspicion so, He's like i'm not saying
that that they did IT because i don't want to
like throw my guy into. The bus but, YOU know
i got to divorce. My wife, so Anyway so crassis
comes in and just bribes the pants off of, the jurors,
and so, you know to, everybody's shock, You know clodius
goes free and lives to terrorize Many of. Roman citizens

(01:20:13):
clodius ends up becoming One of rome's most. Legendary, mobsters,
yeah yeah he becomes this. Like slumlord he kind of
rules the Streets of rome for the better part of,
a decade, you know, murdering people. Swaying elections eventually gets
murdered by, another mobster this Guy. Named milo they like

(01:20:34):
meet Outside of rome on the on the highway and
like maybe they didn't know that they were both going
to be on the road, that day but they both
have like entourages of, you know dozens of. Tough dudes
and so, this massive bloody knife fight breaks Out and
Milo sees clodius like get injured and start to try

(01:20:57):
to run off toward like a hostel. Or, Something right mila,
is like better finish. Him, off yeah so they just
like grab him and bring Him.

Speaker 6 (01:21:04):
Before MILO.

Speaker 2 (01:21:06):
But, i mean you get caught in a dress or
dressed like, a woman you probably got to overcompensate. A, bit.

Speaker 6 (01:21:12):
YEAH yeah i think that explains.

Speaker 3 (01:21:14):
A lot and then my last, question Is Was julius
caesar really.

Speaker 1 (01:21:23):
Every man's woman and every? Woman's man?

Speaker 5 (01:21:27):
All right so he he might have had a little
bit of indiscretion in, his youth particularly with the King
of Nicomedia or Nicomedes, of, bithynia sorry the king Of, the,
east right, you know so if if, he did and
there's there were rumors going around that basically he was.

Speaker 6 (01:21:50):
He was he was the Queen.

Speaker 5 (01:21:51):
Of bathenia for a spell when he was like in. His,
twenties yeah but if, he did that was the, Only,
Time okay and AND he i think apparently any time
that people would bring, this up it was the one
thing you could say that Would make caesar fly off,
the handle like he did not want to Be the Queen.
Of athenia but people kind of pestered him. With it

(01:22:14):
and and that was the only instance of him potentiality
potentially fooling around.

Speaker 6 (01:22:21):
With men.

Speaker 5 (01:22:23):
Now was he, you know did he? Chase men no evidence,
of that but that wouldn't have been so bad to
be The reci.

Speaker 4 (01:22:34):
It was one time, in college, all, right right, you
know you know.

Speaker 5 (01:22:39):
He was In. The east it's done.

Speaker 3 (01:22:40):
Over there my favorite Line from Alexander's the east has
a way of.

Speaker 5 (01:22:44):
Swallowing, men.

Speaker 6 (01:22:48):
Yes he's almost.

Speaker 5 (01:22:49):
Got, swallowed yeah and maybe he was over compensating for
the rest of.

Speaker 4 (01:22:54):
His life swallowing then or is he? SWALLOWING them i,
mean yes you could play that any way you.

Speaker 3 (01:22:58):
Want to, really, well dude this was incredibly informative. And
fun your podcast Again is Cost. Of Glory alex, PETKIS
PhD PhD On? The classics What's? Your instagra where do
you want everyone to find?

Speaker 1 (01:23:16):
You online aside from, The podcast.

Speaker 5 (01:23:18):
I'm on twitter x MOSTLY at I think i'm at Cost.
Of glory Look for alex. Petkisk post i'm also, on YouTube, but.

Speaker 4 (01:23:26):
Yeah the everything, app though, the.

Speaker 6 (01:23:28):
Everything, yeah yeah send.

Speaker 3 (01:23:30):
Me money is there any final parting thoughts you want
to leave with the Audience on.

Speaker 1 (01:23:35):
Sola or rome? Or anything just what interests you?

Speaker 5 (01:23:37):
Most, about well if you guys ever want to just
like Riff on, roman, history yeah Check. Out plutarch he's
really good and. Really accessible you can just like read
through and, it's great. GREAT quotes a lot OF what
i kind of riff on myself is just straight Out.
Of Plutarch that's. Shakespeare's Guy, For caesar Anthony. And coriolan

(01:23:58):
What is. Plutarch's era he's like a Contemporary, Of Seneca,
marcus Aurelius. Like trajan it's like late first century a,
d okay surprisingly accessible for a two thousand year.

Speaker 1 (01:24:11):
Old author everyone that that one continued to get. Written, down,
yeah yeah through.

Speaker 5 (01:24:16):
The, years yeah he's a. Great storyteller that's what they had.

Speaker 6 (01:24:19):
To do that's what they had, To, do yeah. To
survive how.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
Accurate is he compared To?

Speaker 5 (01:24:24):
LIKE herodotus i think he's a little Better, than herodotus
but he will now and then, you know if he
finds a story, of Say a roman general discovering a
sixty foot tall Skeleton. In africa, just, say well he
found a sixty foot tall Skeleton. In africa what do
you want me? To say so he won't he won't
omit the interesting stuff just because. It's, implausible yeah if.

Speaker 3 (01:24:47):
He said he, saw it he, SAW it i don't
know What, the yeah you take it from there as
far as whether or not you. Believe, it, Awesome man
thank you so much for. Joining us alex Peckets Costa.
Glory podcast find Him on Twitter. Aus glory yeah THAT'S
all i got. For, today man this has. Been awesome
thank you so much for coming On for Danner And.

(01:25:08):
Alex Peckis I'm.

Speaker 4 (01:25:09):
Rob fox you just got sauce syrved

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