Who Was The Best General Of All Time?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
You.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
I'm now listening to soft Core History.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
What is up? Welcome back to the Softcore History Patreon.
I am your host for the week, Rob Fox, joined
as always by Dan Rochester. This is one of I
don't know how the episode's gonna go. You know it'll
be good, but in terms of like going into it
sitting the bar low, this is the most excited. No,
this is the most excited for an episode I've been

(00:35):
since The Prostitute Guidebook.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
Really, and we're giving it to the fine folks here
on Patreon. Yes, lucky them, lucky them.

Speaker 1 (00:45):
Well, one reason I'm giving you to the fine folks
in Patreon is because and I forget who did this,
but give you give yourself flowers in the discord because
someone in the discord is like, Rob, have you seen
that website that ranked historical generals by winds above.

Speaker 2 (01:01):
Replacement, the sabermetrics.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
The sabermetrics for generals. They're like, have you seen it?
And I was like, oh, my fucking god, Like do
you even understand how like, Rob core that is?

Speaker 2 (01:14):
So that's what you've been doing in the last week,
just looking at this chart, ignoring your kids.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
Yeah, not not packing. I'm working babe, I gotta see
you pack.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
If Sola had a higher war then I don't know.
Fucking you'll seees Grant.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Yeah, we'll talk about Granteday. I didn't find Sola in here,
although he might be so one one note. I wasn't
able to get to well, hey, there's a lot of
generals in this, but b they didn't make a list.
They just made this graph where you have to like
hover over it.

Speaker 2 (01:50):
That's pretty sweet.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
So it was everyone's really close. It was that's like
most Yeah, they see the one up here.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Oh we have a major outlier.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
We'll talk about him because he's number one with a bullet.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
But is he kind of a dark horse or is
he a brand name brand name? This is a Is
that Napoleon?

Speaker 1 (02:09):
That would be Napoleon.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah that's what I figured.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, like he's babe, ruth at it in the war
like just head and shoulders.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
I'm surprised it's not Muhammad actually Napoleon's favorite.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
I didn't find Muhammad on here because again you literally
I was like, dude, why didn't you make a list?
Like you literally have to go onto this and hover over.
I found a ton. I found a bunch of really
interesting ones, but uh, there's a lot. There are a
shit ton of generals in here. But I want to
shout out this website towards towards datascience dot com. Ethan
Arscht wrote the article, did the did all the research

(02:45):
for this? Go check it out. Go read the article
and check out the graph. Just play around with it.
It's fucking awesome. He did wins above replacement for historical
general through all time. I mean, this is ancient history
all the way through post World War two. And I
could have looked at this for twelve hours.

Speaker 2 (03:07):
Yeah, I mean, somebody that link, could you just want
to like to kind of just browse it for the
next two weeks.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Yeah, it's fucking great, dude. And the article where he
breaks it down is great.

Speaker 2 (03:17):
So I'm a big data boy too. Are you key
for what? For golf? Okay?

Speaker 1 (03:22):
Oh yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
You are a big data golf the rabbit hole.

Speaker 1 (03:25):
Which is funny because you shit on me for loving
fangrafts and S and P plus.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
I think the amount of teams.

Speaker 1 (03:35):
Is just too vast for S and P plus.

Speaker 2 (03:39):
There's too many like variables. Golf is a little bit
I mean, it's one hundred and forty guys in the tournament. Right,
But with the core history and all the data, with
the strokes gained and with kind of how they're trending. Well, golf,
it's a little bit more predictable than say, I don't know,
somebody's quarterback getting dinged up in the first play.

Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah, well, I was gonna say. Golf and baseball way
less moving parts. There's like very specific actions with where
one person does something and then another person does something.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Yeah. Yeah, where guys, especially on certain courses, they just
show up every year. They could be in the worst
form ever, but it's just like a comfy spot for to.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Get right well. In baseball too, you know you're in
a slump, then you face a pitcher who looks like
he's throwing beach balls to you. Yeah, for whatever reason,
you love facing that picture.

Speaker 2 (04:25):
You just mentally on this man. Also with a new
set deck not intended kind of benefit. But I now
have a headrest with the shelf.

Speaker 1 (04:37):
Oh look at you.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
It's pretty sweet.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
My my hat was bumping this shit the other day.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, but I mean I can casually just like not
put all my weight on the shelf, but like a
good twenty percent enough.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Gives you a little rest.

Speaker 2 (04:51):
Yeah, I'm happy for you. Finally I can put my
head down.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
You should upholster it. Just get a little cushion there.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yeah, or like one of the those pads you throw
on a barbell. Yeah, that chicks do so they don't
rough up their back when they do squats.

Speaker 1 (05:06):
You don't want to chick with a raw back.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Or we like to call it a tampon where I'm from,
is it it's very unmanly to use the pad when
he squad god or for hip thrust there you get
to feel the iron going to your skin.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Just doesn't work the same otherwise. So I want to
go into his methodology a little bit before we get
into the generals and how they rank and stuff like that.
So he scraped information for every battle he could find
on Wikipedia because he said that was the best battle
database he could find. And Wikipedia actually does good battle
breakdown strength commanders, blah blah blah, terrain, total forces available

(05:45):
to commanders, the outcome of the battle.

Speaker 2 (05:50):
Wait, you're telling me Wikipedia is giving me good data.
They're not calling all of these guys war criminals.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well they probably all are. They all are?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:58):
Fine, He separated the combatants forces into infantry, cavalry, artillery,
air force, and navy, and then he could wait at
general's numerical advantage or disadvantage compared to their adversary to
better isolate the general's ability as a tactician. Now, one
thing to note here, this is a tactical measure, not

(06:24):
a strategic measure, so it doesn't it is purely on
battlefield skill.

Speaker 2 (06:31):
Game management theory can only get you so far.

Speaker 1 (06:34):
Well, yeah, so, like, for example, you know, there are coaches,
college ball, coaches, and we're just going to do this
because I don't care who are great at managing a team,
but you don't want to call in your.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
Play Listen, this information right here, this data is built
for us to just make sports and knowlogy. It literally
there's nothing else we can do. I'm sorry, yeah, but
it is.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
You know, there's there's coaches you want running your team
but not calling your plays right, And there's.

Speaker 2 (06:57):
Coaches, and then there's play callers and then.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
There yeah, so this is this is rating their play
calling essentially. Now, and we'll get into where this has
some deviance on generals who were definitely good generals but
not great play callers.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
The Dabo swingeys of the world.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
Yes, yes, exactly, So he waited all this stuff. Uh
he actually found that numbers alone had like a pretty
small effect compared to other factors like terrain and technology.
Uh So just having numbers was not like as big
of an advantage as he thought it would be. And

(07:39):
so he isolated each general's battle assigned to wins above
replacement score to their performance in each battle. And the
way he did that is actually really interesting too. What
So for Napoleon for example, uh, he gained point four
to nine wins above replacement for his victory one of
his best victories, the Battle of Borodino.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (08:00):
French troops slightly outnumbered Russian troops in that battle. So
a replacement in general in Napoleon's position would have a
fifty one chance of victory.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
Right, Are we accounting for strength to schedule as well?

Speaker 3 (08:14):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (08:16):
I think that gets a little put into the numbers
and technology aspect of it that he waits in. You
know what I mean, Because.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
Like the generals for the g watt no offense, you know,
we're going as guys throwing stones at.

Speaker 1 (08:32):
Absolute FCS schedule. That's just that's like an SEC team
playing only FCS through the year. But the problem is
the season never ends. It's just another FCS school coming
every week.

Speaker 2 (08:44):
Every week and where nixating Bama.

Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah yeah. The only way it's the only way you
beat that Bama team is if they have to play
inn FCS school every day and eventually one FCS school
just gets them.

Speaker 2 (08:59):
I think they would have to play multiple teams in
a day.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
In a day, Yeah, he might be right, to be honest.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Like a king of the ring, We're not leaving the
field until someone beats us. And they're probably gonna be
like eight FCS teams before they lose. Yes, and simply
the guys will just be too tired.

Speaker 1 (09:15):
That that will be all it will be. Because their
second team could just come in and play. They could
play every other game.

Speaker 2 (09:22):
Yeah, they got like one hundred dudes. Yeah, and just
keep rotating. Yep.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
So the wins of replacement assigns Napoleon one full win
for his victory, but subtracts fifty one percent point five
to one because a mid general would win too, so
he gains point four to nine wins of replacement for
that specific victory. Once it's weighted against what a replacement

(09:46):
general would have done.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
How far back we go? And is Leonidas on this?

Speaker 1 (09:50):
I didn't find Leonidas, but we were going into ancient history.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Okay, I was gonna be like, hmmm, I mean he lost,
But I wonder what those numbers are looking like for
just holding on for so long?

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Uh, you do get Yeah, even if you lose, you
do get a certain amount of wins or or less
amount of loss, for how weighted against you the battle was, right,
So losing Thermopylae not gonna be much of a ding
versus losing Gettysburg.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
They simply had three hundred men. Rob Yeah, it's ten
thou Yeah, that's not true. Thousand it sounds a million. Actually,
that's right, that's right. It's a million verse and three
hundred duds even to show up. It was two seventy seven,
but it didn't sound as good as three hundred.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
Now you get a round up for that to seventy
seven is what? How can you even say that? So
two things I noticed from this list is one, there
are stat compilers.

Speaker 2 (10:53):
Of course there always is.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yeah, Generals who fought a lot of battles tended to
rank higher and wins above replacement, because war is a
cumulative stats.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Is that all the Brits in the colonial days.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Uh no, no, no, no, no, there's a lot of different people.
In fact, a lot of you get we get a
lot of Civil War guys because the Civil War generals
fought a ton of battles.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
I figured the Cromwells of the world would just stack
compile against the Irish.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
I don't think those count as battles, Okay, I don't
think that.

Speaker 2 (11:22):
Genosid.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Yeah, yeah, Cromwell was on here. He had a positive
wins above replacement.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Okay, So Israeli generals right now, they don't compute, right.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
So one of the highest ranking guys in wins of
replacement was Mosha Dan, who was the commander of the
Six Day War.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yeah, this ghoul is an eepatch.

Speaker 1 (11:44):
I'm not saying this to be anti Semitic.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
No, he looks Nazish. This guy looks he looks like
the doctors that would experiment on the Jewsy. This is
one of the scariest.

Speaker 1 (11:53):
Looking people I've ever seen him.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
Let's throw up the photo. You're gonna have to send
me that I will.

Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, absolutely, this is horrifying.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
Two.

Speaker 1 (12:02):
One the other thing I noticed is generals in modern
wars didn't get as much love because I think a
the battles they fought or are more fluid, They weren't
like the pitched battles you fought prior to the twentieth century,
where it was like one, two, three days and it
was like here, we're here, and this is the battle.

(12:23):
Like the Battle of the Bulge, for example, in World
War Two, took place across three countries, lasted a month, like,
it's just not the same as Waterloo one day, two
armies on the field, a true contest, right, exactly so,
And I think really, once you get to World War one,

(12:46):
general's strategy always important, but I think I do think
tactics on the general level kind of take a back seat.
Strategy becomes more and more important, and tactics is sort
of more uniform across the armies in general. It's not like, oh,
this guy does not a command. So I think twentieth
century generals largely get undervalued. In this tactical rating.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
You gotta figure out who's good at adjustments, who's good
at kind of altering from their original game plan? Yeah,
but like or will they go down and you know,
die swinging with the same stupid strategy and schemes.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
Roberty elite style. I'm gonna fight like I'm Napoleon. Well
it's fifty years later, maybe don't or anything.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
In the Franco Prussian War.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
Oh god, that's even worse. Well it's actually it's the
same thing. It's the exact same thing.

Speaker 2 (13:45):
It's way worse. They're just like, uh, we have gatling guns. Yeah,
we're just gonna.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
All the way up to World War One, there was
a certain amount of like, oh, we're gonna fight this way,
this classic way, and then eventually or.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
No Franco Press War, they actually had machine guns.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Right, they had early they didn't have like the maxim
like actual automatics like that were in the Spanish like
the early the earliest versions. Yeah, I think it was
still maybe crank crank it up style thing like that.

Speaker 2 (14:15):
We should go back to cranks. There's just something satisfying.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
But they did have bet that was that was one
of the first wars with what you could consider like
modern more modern rifles like breech loading.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
In France. Maybe even keeps taking that ol.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
Oh, they don't stop, they don't stop taking l's. But
let's get into it. Let's get into these generals. I'm
gonna give you the top couple, and then I'm just
gonna give you have a lot of highlights. So just
famous generals.

Speaker 2 (14:45):
There's there's a couple generals, generals that get married. Top couple,
that'd be.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
I mean, I'm sure a few romans did married stuff
with each other.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, or things that you wouldn't even do with
your with your wife.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
No, that's more of a more of a bro situation
where as it should be.

Speaker 2 (15:09):
So you gotta you can only do it with somebody
you're incredibly close with, and that's not your wife.

Speaker 1 (15:13):
It's no, it's never your wife. As I've tried to
explain to her many times, as she's begged me to
do those things to her, like, you're just not mind bro,
my bud. Yeah, I'm a buddy.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
I just feel obligated to have sex with you because
you're my wife and you have to have kids. We're
gonna keep pumping those out.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
I tell her, I'm like, we already have three kids,
we're done having kids.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
There's no reason to have sex anymore. Yeah, you serve
no other purpose. It's over, so like we can hang out.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Still, Yeah, we'll do you know, that's fine. I'll watch
the summer. I turn pretty with you.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
But but thinking of actually going inside you makes me
kind of vomit.

Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, it's disgusting. It's fine. She doesn't listen, especially not
buying the paywall. Nope. So number one with a bullet,
I've already said it Napoleon, and it's not even close.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
I pointed it out. Yeah that's how obvious it was. Yeah,
I was like, oh, yeah, that's Napoleon.

Speaker 1 (16:12):
Now he has sixteen point seven.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
To be fair, I know about like seven generals.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
So we're hitting all the big ones. Not all of them,
but we're hitting a lot of big ones. It was
mostly guys. You're gonna know.

Speaker 2 (16:24):
Actually, that should be a fun exercise. We should just
go back and forth with generals until we stop.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
Until we canil. We just feel like I win that game.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
Probably crush me. You can finally get a win on
the contest here.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
So Napoleon fought forty three battles because he was general
in technically like five wars. It's the Napoleonic Wars, not
like the Civil War, the Revolutionary War, like he fought
war after war after war. Forty three battles, by far
the most amount of battles on THEE.

Speaker 2 (17:00):
He wanted to get some.

Speaker 1 (17:02):
He got a lot, and he had sixteen point seven
wins above replacement.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
I think he just wanted to kind of stay away
from his lady, his toothless, disease ridden lady. Yeah, he
loved her, but from afar. Yeah, Josephine, I can't really
stand more than a weekend with you yet. There's some
benefits to long distance relationships.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
One hundred percent. I mean, she was banging other dudes.

Speaker 2 (17:26):
But yeah, but all long distance relationships, she's probably banging
other dudes. But once you actually see each other for
three four days max passion, you're getting after it like rabbits, yep.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
And then you just get to leave again, and.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Then you get to live your own life. You have
to do whatever you want. They might call. You have to,
you know, have some forty five minute conversation on the
phone where you vague interest in their day to day lives.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 2 (17:54):
But you can do other things. You watch TV, you
can kind of play video games and yeah, like you said,
just kind of cool. Yeah that's sweet. Oh, she's such
a bitch.

Speaker 1 (18:04):
That's literally about to say, yeah, dude, she sucks. Just
don't even worry about her.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, like you deserve better, Like, have you thought about
maybe getting another job?

Speaker 1 (18:16):
I fucking hate all phone calls, but I especially hate
phone calls with a significant.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Other from far, far place away.

Speaker 1 (18:25):
Yeah, I'm like, what do you want? Yeah, I'm here.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Sorry I didn't check in, just laying down.

Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, what's going on? Then? Now with my wife? And like,
show me the kids? Like FaceTime me the kids.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
I don't want to talk to you. We have nothing
to talk about. That's why old people. Have you see
them at like a cracker barrel or any fine dining establishment,
They don't talk to one another. Sixty seven year old couples.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah, and they don't even have phones to fuck around with.
By the time we're old.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
They're just kind of staring off into the abyss.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Yeah, it's a it's a thousand yard stare. Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
That's why I still have no problem with Bill Belichick
dating somebody fifty years younger than him. He's keeping himself young,
keeping himself young. People are like, what are you gonna
talk about if he had a seventy year old wife,
an age appropriate wife, they're not talking anyway. Maybe she
excites him with something.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Yeah, he is actually talking to her. That's the difference.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
He doesn't talk much in general, but like, yeah, getting yeah,
that sounds pretty good. She has a bitch. I agree, Yeah, yeah,
she Uh, you can do it better.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Huh, you are better friends. These are better friends than that.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
We're uh, we're on with Catherine.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
So here's how big of a lead Napoleon has. Do
you want to guess who's in second place? It's another
big boy, as big as you could think of.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
Okay, I think it's gonna be the way you kind
of said it and looked at me. It's gonna be
one of my boys.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
No, not necessarily, okay.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
So it's not Hannibal.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
He ranks high, but it's not Hannibal right era, right era.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Okay, so probably over Roman m hm. And let's go
with Julius Caesar.

Speaker 1 (20:20):
Yep, Julius Caesar comes in second place on the winds
above replacement.

Speaker 2 (20:26):
Nine. That's our conversation with Alex. I think we need
to put more respect on Julius Caesar. We kind of
hated on him, and we're leading him to hate. Julius
Caesar with us tried, he just he would not take.

Speaker 1 (20:38):
Try to lead the witness. He wouldn't follow.

Speaker 2 (20:40):
He wanted He's like, no, I can't do it.

Speaker 1 (20:42):
Yeah, he was that dope because everyone else at the
time was a dickhead too. Yeah, and it makes sense.
That's fine.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Julius Caesar comes in nine wins above replacement behind Napoleon,
like there is no one close to Napoleon. Now, Napoleon
bit of a stat compiler forty three battles. Caesar gets
his seven point three winsby replacement in seventeen battles.

Speaker 2 (21:03):
Brightest flames, burn out the fastest.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yeah. I mean both of them ended their careers at
roughly the same time.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Well technically, but like you said, it's it's all about
actual games played.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
Yeah, and Napoleon played a lot more.

Speaker 2 (21:20):
Now.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
Napoleon, to his credit, part of it is stack compiling.
But part of it with Napoleon is he sought battle
like he would He went after people like Paton, like Grant,
like he hit people he wanted to keep hitting. So
with Napoleon it's kind of stack compiling, but it's kind
of his strategy was to hit, hit, hit, So in
a way, I don't consider it stack compiling just because

(21:44):
his strategy was to just bleed the other at the.

Speaker 2 (21:48):
Other side as much as possible, fucking foot on the neck.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yes, and you got to respect that.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
Yeah, you don't want to. You don't want to get
into like a conservative prevent defense.

Speaker 1 (21:58):
No, nope, keep blitzon, keep keep attacking. Number three is
actually Napoleon's greatest adversary.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
Okay, so the Englishman.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
Yes, General Wellington, Arthur Wesley, the fame, the man who
beat him at Waterloo.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
Did he create the beef wellingon that might be named
after him? I don't know it's named it's clearly named
after him, but did he prefer like did they could
they make beef wellingon? Then?

Speaker 1 (22:24):
What is the beef Wellington named after?

Speaker 2 (22:27):
And it's also it's like just a deep fried steak.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Is indeed named after Arthur Wesley, the Duke of Wellington.

Speaker 2 (22:35):
That's what it is. It's just like a deep fried steak.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
No, it's a you bake it, but it's got pastry
crust around it.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
That's very pastry crust.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
And I think it's got mushrooms in it too. It's
like pastry crust mushrooms.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Like never actually had it.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
It's good, it's delicious, Yeah, but you can't.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Can you fry it? I feel like that's something you
can fry. You could little crispy, you could fry it,
little crispy, kind of crouissant around it.

Speaker 1 (23:00):
You pan fry it. Yeah, you could do that. They
think it's it's uh named for for the Duke of
Wellington after his victory at Waterloo, which was sort of
like the end of a that was like VJ Day
for the British. He has seven point one wins of replacement,

(23:20):
not far behind Caesar eighteen battles. Legit. General people don't
know this as much. They almost they only think about
Wellington at Waterloo. But before Waterloo, Wellington was absolutely fucking
the French up in Spain. He was kind of like
on the undercard, just moving up, moving up, and then
took command of the army. He was kind of the

(23:40):
Grant of England. Yeah, like in this in a smaller theater,
just winning, winning, winning, winning, winning, and then gets promoted to.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
The top dog and takes down the goat. Yep, yep.

Speaker 1 (23:54):
Fourth on this list is a guy I never heard of,
but I thought he was worth mentioning that the Shinjin
in Africa that was that was my Japanese accent.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Oh, okay, so he was like a World War two nope,
or a Russo Japanese war No, okay, Samurai ah now
fifteen hundreds Japan feudal Japan yep, known as the Tiger
of Kai. Was he a part of like the showgun stuff?

Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, to some extent. I think I looked him up
a little bit. He just tore this guy just tore
up Japan in the fifteen hundreds basically.

Speaker 2 (24:36):
Oh man, I'm sprouser. Even on the list, there's so
many like Chinese warlords and Japanese war lords.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
There were a lot of names that I had no
idea about that I just skipped.

Speaker 2 (24:48):
It was.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
It was what it was. But yeah, he has an
even six war just fucking up feudal.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Japan, just cutting everyone in half. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Now again, though, I I wonder.

Speaker 2 (25:01):
Who do you play Paul? Well, he might have had
to fight sub Zero from Mortal Kombat. Lore is this Scorpion?
Is this the man that plays Scorpion?

Speaker 1 (25:14):
I mean, I'll give it to him, Okay, call him Scorpion.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
That just makes it easier in my head. Yeah, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
But he ranks above Hannibal who and I don't think
that's fair because I don't think he played as tough
of a schedule as Hannibal.

Speaker 2 (25:30):
Hannibal had a really tough schedule, but he didn't really close.

Speaker 1 (25:33):
He didn't close, and he made egregious tactical airs.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
Yeah, like trying to march elephants through mountains.

Speaker 1 (25:41):
I mean he still won battles after that, but yeah,
but I mean, come on, we got to dock him
some points. Yeah, but Hannibal comes in at five point
four to eight wins above replacement with seventeen battles. He's
a top ten general all time, should be I think
well deserved. I think he's probably better than shin Jen,

(26:01):
even though this stuff is weighted to take into account
all these different things.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, more of his decision making off the battlefield is
what really gets handled.

Speaker 1 (26:09):
Strategic. That's the thing.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Marching through just the swamps and it's just poop filled
water because all of his soldiers are just shitting themselves.

Speaker 1 (26:17):
You can call plays, but you can't run a team.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Can't kind of manage the locker room. Yeah, he's uh,
Terry Francona at the Red Sox. They're all eating just
you know, fried chicken and drinking beers before games. Yeah,
or maybe like a Dan Mullen playing video games. Yeah,
remember that that whole thing with the red they.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Won like two World series doing it.

Speaker 2 (26:38):
Just chased out Terry Francona because he let his guys
just drink beers before the game.

Speaker 1 (26:42):
Yeah. Well, they were saying, like, if you weren't pitching
that day, you were getting fucked up in the dugout.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
I had to.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Which why not?

Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, but oh no, I'm just gonna be slightly buzzed
when I'm my number. My number is not called. I
have no responsibility, nothing to do today. I have to
sit here and till midnight. This ain't no hobby.

Speaker 1 (27:05):
I just love that they'd get drunk on the job
and I and I always I will always respect it.
I think Hannibal underrated. If if if Shinjin is at six,
I think Hannibal's a little underrated here, but fair enough.
Now we're going to get into generals who we just know.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
Okay, you're like, I'm skipping anyone from Russia, anyone from India.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
Well, I mean we got a Russian in here. He's
coming up soon. But first up, Ulysses s Grant, my
guy ranked really high.

Speaker 2 (27:38):
The man the greatest American ever lived.

Speaker 1 (27:41):
Arguably top five American, unquestionably owned a slave, but not
too many.

Speaker 2 (27:48):
Freedom He freedom like immediately, Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (27:50):
He's like, well, it's always just funny to me that
he tried, because I don't I think he didn't want
to be impolite to his father in law, for it
was a gift. It was a wedding gift, and that
he goes like, oh my god, I.

Speaker 2 (28:00):
Can't do this, be really nice, and we're gonna let
this kind of go on for a slight bit until
he died.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
He's just like, whatever the Civil War era of googling,
when is it edita, when is it good etiquette to
free a slave that was a gift to you, like
in your father in law. Yeah, it's like it's bad etiquette.
Free him immediately, Like how many days do I have
to keep this one?

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Insult the man? Yeah, I clearly don't agree with them,
but listen, man, you can just you can just hang
out rent free.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
That's what happened. Yeah, he was like after he tried,
and then he was like, Okay, I'm gonna free you.
I gotta get your but I gotta get your papers
in order I gotta go to the court. It's gonna
take a little while. So just hang just his buddy, Yeah,
just you can just hang man. I'm sure that slave
was like the best roommate ever at that point.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
Oh, he isn't going to act up at all. No,
you don't want grant, you know, second guests in his decision.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Like imagine if you live with your roommate and your
roommate won the lottery, like like the power ball, like
allion dollars, and he's like, dude, you're my bro. I'm
giving you fucking twenty mili out of this. Like, I
love you, man, but I obviously I wait for the
money to come.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
It's actually hit. Yeah, yeah, it might be a month
or two.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
And you how are you acting? Dishes done every night,
vacuuming the apartment?

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Yeah, I mean if our podcast blows up from one
of us somehow becoming incredibly famous, Yeah, like say a
Shane Gillis type, dude, I will get on my knees
for you, buddy. If you got SNL. I think it's possible.
Now Cam Patterson got SNL. Cam Patterson's not very funny.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
That is crazy. Yeah, I've never seen a stand up.

Speaker 2 (29:43):
But that is sometimes he just goes on stage without jokes.

Speaker 1 (29:46):
That sounds like a stand up comic. Pretty sweet, sounds
like a stand up in Austin did.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
The podcast and the comedy wars. We're not a part
of it. I want to be a part of it.
We gotta start beef. We should start beef with people.
That's how we get our name in the headlines.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, two podcasters. If you get Austin, read about it
because your life sucks.

Speaker 2 (30:10):
There's just nothing cooler than podcast beef. Nothing.

Speaker 1 (30:15):
I saw Tony Hinchcliff talking shit on like Anthony Jeselnik
the other day and I was like, boy, two people
I just hate so much.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Also, Jessel Nicks can just run circles around Henecliff as
a as an actual stand up for sure.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
But I don't even like Jeselnic, even though I do
think he's much better.

Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah, I think I'm in the same camp. Yeah, I
respect what his art and he is a good stand
up comedian, but man, he is kind of a tool.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
He oh as a person, He's like, I get served
it reels a lot of him on his podcast talking
about comedy and stuff like that, and I'm just like
you are insufferable?

Speaker 2 (30:50):
Do we have to claim Austin though? If we somehow
got involved in the comedy.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Wars, No, I'm telling people from Saint Louis, we could
be the Philly podcast too. I'm I'm just saying, like,
I'm not giving this city any shine.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, we got to pull away from it. Even though
it's I've said it on the discord. It's the longest
I've lived anywhere in my adult.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
Life by a mile, oh not even close.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
So I feel like I need and people start talking
about Austin, I kind of get defensive.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
I'm like, all right, depends on who's doing it.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
I don't like it either, but I don't think you
can say it. Yeah I did my time. I served
a decade here. Yeah, you shut up about it.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
That's for me.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
I get the bitch.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
It's like a family thing, Like you don't call my
sister a whore. Only I called my sister a yeah. Yeah,
uh oh sorry. Grant sixteen battles five point zero sixty
three wins above replacement ranks really high on the list.
I actually thought sixteen battles was a little low. It

(31:49):
feels like he fought more, but at the end of
the Civil War, the battles were really extended, like the
Battle of Petersburg at the end of the Civil War.
That it became more of a World War One scenario
where battles would last a long time, or like even
Vicksburg lasted a long time because he was doing sieges
and shit like that. So it wasn't necessarily like Shiloh,
which he also won, but that was like a two
day engagement.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Oh, we should do a miacoppa for the Mongolian episode.
Apparently they had Chinese engineers. Oh yeah, they were pretty
good at taking down medieval castle.

Speaker 1 (32:20):
God just sitting in a medieval castle and all these
alien looking motherfuckers. They're just like building tools.

Speaker 2 (32:26):
Yeah, people, you've clearly looked wildly different than you.

Speaker 1 (32:29):
Yeah, building building machines you've never heard of.

Speaker 2 (32:34):
The Aliens might have actually just helped the Mongolians. It's
the only explanation for the weather rocks. Yeah, the weather
Rock also just their dominance for a short period, and
then maybe the Aliens just left.

Speaker 1 (32:47):
Yeah, they just gave him some tech got out of there.
Next up is Russian general from World War Two. I
think this is the highest rated World War two general.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
Is it? Uh, man, I'm blank and lone's name he's
in Death of Stalin. Zukov sounds vaguely familiar, but I
mean you could say any Russian names fair enough.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
That's the guy, Georgia Zukov. He was the main Russian
general in World War Two.

Speaker 2 (33:15):
Was he a player in the mix after Stalin dies?

Speaker 1 (33:20):
I think so?

Speaker 2 (33:21):
Okay, because he was h hold On.

Speaker 1 (33:25):
Zuka in Death of Stone. Yes, that's who Jason Isaac's plays.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
Okay, that's that's what I thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so
he was Jason Isaac's the man. Yeah, he loved that guy.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
He fucking rocks. So Zukov was like the he was
like a combination of Eisenhower and Patten for the Russians,
is a good way to put him.

Speaker 2 (33:42):
Like pretty sweet?

Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, like the most decorated, hard ass general. Uh four
point five nine six wins by replacement by far, the
most World War Two. He only has ten battles, but
I feel like he like the Eastern Front was just
one giant battle that lasted four years kind of yeah,
like it was like constant contact. Like that's the difference between.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
I'm sure a lot of the Eastern European listeners we
have would see that as completely ignorant and disrespectful on
our part. What just calling it one long battle.

Speaker 1 (34:18):
It's just the thing there's they're always in contact, they're
always attacking, obviously, like Stalingrad was its own thing.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
And just admit, we don't care.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
I don't care that.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
We just don't care.

Speaker 1 (34:27):
No, I don't.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Uh, We're not gonna romanticize your communist bullshit.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
And by the way, Zukov might actually be the most efficient.
He comes in wins above replacement per battle.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
I mean he's crushing Nazis, so that's a that's.

Speaker 1 (34:46):
A good dub, like ripping spines out, like absolutely.

Speaker 2 (34:50):
Destroys responsible for the narrative now that the Russians won
World War two.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, which is absolute bullshit. I tweeted the other day
and it didn't do well, which I was pissed about.

Speaker 3 (35:00):
It was like Putin's G the everything app X, Yeah,
Putin G and the other people that were there celebrating
victory Day in China, so like World War two victory Day, Yeah,
and I was I just quote tweeted the like picture
of it, and I was like, oh, that's kind of cool.

Speaker 1 (35:17):
They all came together to celebrate an American accomplishment.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Zero real sweets yep, zeros Yep.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
That was all us, baby, that was all us.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Well, that just kind of confirms that Twitter at this
point is just Russian bots.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
And weirdly like Pakistani and Indian bots.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
That's not weird, they're they're kind of running the Internet
right now.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
They it's so fucked. But he comes in at point
four to six war per battle. Napoleon's only point three eight.

Speaker 2 (35:51):
Oh damn, Napoleon overrated, a little bit.

Speaker 1 (35:54):
Of a stack compiler, also lost more battles than Zukov did.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
How many thous did Zukov lose?

Speaker 1 (36:00):
Uh, let's check, let's check on on Zukov here, I
gotta find him on the fuck.

Speaker 2 (36:04):
And also can we trust Soviet Russia data?

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Uh?

Speaker 2 (36:09):
You know this is like, you know, who's probably the
greatest general is a North Korean from the information?

Speaker 1 (36:19):
Yeah, that's absolutely yeah, that's accurate.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
Kim Jong un actually has the largest war for any general.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Three hundred yeah, three hundred wins by replacement.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
And he did so by not having to actually go
to war.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
That's the best general of all.

Speaker 2 (36:35):
It's just firing a bunch of nukes into the ocean.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
So Zukov never lost a battle ten oh to oh.

Speaker 2 (36:41):
Oh, then put him up there, dude, put them on
Mount rushmore.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Right, Napoleon. How many battles a Napoleon lose? Let's see, well,
all right, let's give some credit to Napoleon here on
his record thirty eight and five. So Waterloo, he lost,
the Battle of aspern Elsling, the Battle of Kresnoir.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Obviously going into Russia.

Speaker 1 (37:08):
The Battle of Berezena. So in Russia he was winning
most of the battles. Battle of Leipzig is the one
he lost in Russia, I believe, or to the Russians.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
Could be wrong about that, but I just imagine he
lost since the old saying is never go to Russia
during the winter.

Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, but that was a strategic mistake. On the battlefield,
he wasn't doing too bad.

Speaker 2 (37:29):
It seems like a major part of the model, though,
is the strategic.

Speaker 1 (37:34):
Is his only tactical acumen? Okay, strategic, you'd have to
do a different one for it. I don't even know
how you would do it.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
I think they should kind of combine it.

Speaker 1 (37:42):
I agree to be kind of a.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Full representation of who they are.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
This is not the end all be all. I agree
with that. Alexander the Great clocking in at four point
three seven six wins above replacement, He is arguably the
great because he has the highest wins above replacement per
battle at point four to eight on the whole graph.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
I think he also just has the largest variety of wins.
What do you mean, just people he battled, he was
going all over.

Speaker 1 (38:16):
Oh yeah, and he wins sieges, He wins pitched battles.
He wins, can do it all. Yeah, he wons a
five tool player. He only fought nine battles, won them all.

Speaker 2 (38:27):
On nine different like geographical series.

Speaker 1 (38:32):
Just everywhere. He literally built land to fight a battle
in Sardis, I think. But yeah, he he is the highest.
He's the most efficient general on the list. I believe Patton.
And this is where I think we underrate World War
two generals comes in at a measly point nine wins
above replacement for his career.

Speaker 2 (38:54):
We you say we overrated under it under rate. I
think we overrat him.

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Huh, because according to this we overrate Patton. Yeah, zero
point nine doesn't even get to a full win above replacement.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Yeah, it's like anybody could have done this, any.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Lug he's a plug and play Patton is essentially a
replacement level general in this model.

Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yeah, it's just like, all right, get another catcher who cares.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
It's like a running back.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah, yeah, just plug him in. Never pay a running
back more than minimum wage. Never pay a World War
two general.

Speaker 1 (39:28):
There are a ton of generals from the Civil War
on this list because they fought a ton of battles.
Their rankings are kind of fascinating. Talked about Grant, He's
a top ten general.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Do we have we haven't gotten to this. Do we
have terrible generals on this list? Yes, all the way
to like the left, yep and bottom.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
We'll get to we'll get to We'll get to some.
There's a really funny one. There's a really funny one.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
I was thinking kind of just Mexican American War.

Speaker 1 (39:55):
Winfield Scott for the Americans had like two plus wins
ab overplay and he was a general in both eighteen
twelve A in the Mexican War, and yeah, he did well.
I couldn't find Zachary Taylor, but I assume he.

Speaker 2 (40:08):
I wasn't thinking American.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Oh you wanted to see the Mexicans. There's a lot
of Spanish names on here.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
I don't know. I don't know who.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
It doesn't give their nationality, like I just had to
know their nationality from looking at the name. Yeah, So
let's talk about Lee. Obviously, Grant's opponent.

Speaker 2 (40:31):
Did not farewell. Really crooked media.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
Fucking libs, fucking liberal bath. Lee fought the second most
battles on this list, behind Napoleon twenty seven battles.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
It's too many battles.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
Clocks in at negative one point nine wins above replacement.
Lee's record was eight wins, thirteen losses, and six.

Speaker 2 (41:02):
Draws thirteen ols. He took thirteen ols.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
This is your goat, right, yeah, thirteen els. He takes
a lot, he doesn't. I mean, he wins big battles,
like he wins Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville, but people forget he
loses it a lot of other places. This counts Antietam
as a loss, but he loses it, you know, Beaver Creek, Dam,

(41:27):
Oak Grove, and then once Grant gets in there, it's
over Chaffin's Farm, Cold Harbor.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
He was like that Tom Herman season at Houston where
they're knocking off Louisville. They're knocking off the big names. Yeah,
but then Navy catches him.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
In a way. It was Navy that caught the Confederacy,
maybe really caught the Confederacy.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
Their submarines couldn't do anything.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
Yeah, if only the technology had been there. But yeah,
Lee lost more battles than he won. People forget this
because he had admittedly humongous victories at Second Bowl Run, Chancellorsville, Fredericksburg,
but he had a losing record in the war, lost
the war negative wins above replacement on this list. However,

(42:15):
not all Confederates.

Speaker 2 (42:16):
Fared that battlely Stonewall Jackson.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Stonewall Jackson two point eight wins above replacement.

Speaker 2 (42:24):
Until I mean, did it factor in him just taking
a goddamn cannonball or whatever?

Speaker 1 (42:29):
He gets a bullet, his bullet, Yeah, but from his
own Dudes.

Speaker 2 (42:33):
Why do I think he just got to I thought
he had taken out by Oh so friendly fire took
out Stonewall Jackson. Yeah, yeah, dude, immediately disqualified. That's about
general Your men took you out.

Speaker 1 (42:45):
You want to say something about Pat Tillman.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Yeah, kind of. He wasn't in general. Yeah, he wasn't
in charge.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
It was it was Stonewall Jackson's fault. Too. He was
traveling at night during I think the Battle of Chancellorsville
and came upon a Confederate picket. He probably should have
known better, and he got shot by one of his
own fucking dudes.

Speaker 2 (43:03):
Imagine being the troops took out Stonewall.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Lot, maybe losing the war, maybe.

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Losing your own life, you lost your country. Yeah, but
I imagine he got reprimanded. He probably got hung.

Speaker 1 (43:17):
I'll check that out.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Maybe they sent him to like a war camp. The
soldier who shot he's a pow. It's like, dude, I'm
on your side.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
No specific soldier was ever punished.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Hmm. Interesting. He probably deserted.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
You got to get out of there, get out. You
gotta get the hell out of there.

Speaker 2 (43:35):
Or they just covered up, like yeah he's dead, don't worry.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
Yeah, killed him, kill him immediately, don't worry about it.
They're like, run Roscoe, get out of here. Roscoe never
come back. Jedediah Uh.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
It was like it was like a thirteen year old kid. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
Probably another Confederate general p. G. T. Beauregald, who mostly
fought in the Western Theater. I believe three point one
wins above. Replacement did well, did well, fourteen battles Ku
Klux Klan founder Nathan Bedford Forrest.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Who was he getting wins against?

Speaker 1 (44:10):
He was a Confederate general first, he founded the clan
after Okay, two point six wins above replacement thirteen battles,
did a hell of a job.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
And I don't agree with the politics.

Speaker 1 (44:27):
Yeah, I didn't know. He is considered an excellent cavalry
goddamn strategist. Rather there he is considered on the field
one of the best commanders of the Civil War.

Speaker 2 (44:37):
Like legitimately bad decision with the Hoods, though, you know,
it's kind of tough.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Hard to see, hard to shoot. This one surprised me,
But I think I know why General Sherman only two
point twenty five wins above replacement twelve battles.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
He burned down an entire city.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Robert burnt down an entire swath. But here's the thing.
The whole march to the See doesn't count. That's strategic.
Any battle fought within counts. But the larger success of it,
the larger genius of that move.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
See. I already questioned the numbers and the data here,
then I know you've you've already set those expectations. But
I just I just can't get down with this. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
So his strategic acumen of initiating the march to the
Sea and then sending off a sending off part of
his army to go deal with Tennessee and being like,
fuck it, we don't need supply.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
I'm gonna have. I'm gonna need you to actually just
like come up with your own model. Sure, coney, a
better model. Okay, there there's a want and a need
for it. I think you need to market is craven?
What the market's craven? A better model it is?

Speaker 1 (45:47):
Yeah, we gotta we gotta refine it. Yeah, so his
strategy stuff doesn't count. Now here's one that doesn't make
any goddamn sense. Uh. General mcclell and, who is one
of the worst generals of the war, allegedly allegedly see
it's a broken model. Yeah, has a higher wins above

(46:07):
replacement than Sherman. Now McClellan was strategically horrible, but he
was in OC. Yeah, he was in O C.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
That's what it is. You know, sometimes you just got
to know your position. You can't lead in the entire team,
you can't be in charge of you know that. Fifty
two man roster, but playing or play calling, that's fine.
Call some call, yeah, just called again.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Eleven battles, two point eight wins above replacement, pretty pretty
odd to me. And then this one is right on
the money actually, which makes me think it's okay, uh Mead,
General Meade who won the Battle of Gettysburg for the Union,
grant wasn't over there yet, comes out positive one point
six eight war slightly above average, eleven battles. That's kind

(46:55):
of how historians rate him. He's right right on the
money there. And then General Longstreet, Lee's right hand man
after Jackson goes down, and probably the smartest Confederate general
of the war in my opinion. One point three wins
above replacement.

Speaker 2 (47:09):
Seems like your opinion is not great.

Speaker 1 (47:11):
Okay, I just think he's underrated here.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
You're either wrong or the model drong.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Who could say, because I agree with some of it,
but others are weird.

Speaker 2 (47:24):
Now, I think we kind of give too much credit
to the Civil War generals. They should they should be dinged.

Speaker 1 (47:30):
They did get to fight a lot of battles, a lot.

Speaker 2 (47:32):
Of battles going against your like old roommate, this was
this was an innermural game.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
It was a very incestuous coaching tree.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
Yeah, this was just fraternity gold League.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
It was just your pros, Like, dude, I'm totally gonna
outsmart fucking damn today. It's gonna be hilarious.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
Such a dumb bitch. Uh.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
There's pretty funny results from this list as well, and
interesting results. This is the funniest one by far. Do
you want who the lowest wins above replacement I could
find on this list was hmm, arguably the worst general
on the list.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Of all time, the worst general to ever do it.
I gotta think of somebody that lost to him. Was
it whoever was fighting against like Shaka Zulu?

Speaker 1 (48:32):
Nope?

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Mmm?

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Who was it? George Washington?

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Uh?

Speaker 1 (48:42):
Did George Washington clocking in at negative nine winds above replacement?

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Yeah? American Revolution? Did England actually just give it to us?

Speaker 1 (48:53):
They did? We lost a shit ton of battles in
the American Revolution. What George Washington did? It's sort of
you write history.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
He'd be like, Yeah, England just you know in there
they're ever given ways just decided you guys can be free.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
I mean, in a lot of ways, the American Revolution
was the g watt Yeah, but It's.

Speaker 2 (49:15):
Like, if George Washington is that bad, how fucking dope
is Lafayette?

Speaker 1 (49:19):
I couldn't find him on this list.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
God damn it, dude. I know Lafayette has to be
like off the but he's broken past Napoleon.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
George Washington is acknowledged historically as a mediocre to bad tactician.
But they marvel at his strategy. He could rally the
truth in the war, which is basically just like, you
can't do this forever, man.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
Yeah, but how many he doesn't get dinged for like
killing all those people at Valley Forge.

Speaker 1 (49:47):
No, but he had to. I mean, he had to
set up camp somewhere.

Speaker 2 (49:51):
George Washington the most overrated man to ever live.

Speaker 1 (49:55):
Excellent strategist, I guess in terms of his strategy being whatever, Dude,
I just gotta wait you out. King Jordan Washington was
basically Ho Chi Minh. Apparently, like Na, the Vietnamese never
won battles in the Vietnam War.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Yeah, but they just outlasted you. Yeah, dude, they because
they knew the terrain obviously being a home game, and
they've been fighting bigger and badder opponents for like one
hundred years at that point, I.

Speaker 1 (50:25):
Do not think they've been fighting bigger and badder. I
think we were the biggest and baddest. They fought, but
they did no bigger and better than them. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (50:33):
Oh obviously not the American. Yeah, the French. China obviously
had the Yeah, the Chinese and the French had a
much better organized army than the viet Kang.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
Right, and the Japanese too in World War Two. Yeah,
all they were Oh, I mean it was it was Uss,
non con just beating. I mean, just big boy after
big boy.

Speaker 2 (50:54):
He should get a lot of love then.

Speaker 1 (50:57):
Yeah, hoch you in.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Yeah, I agree, because he's al kicking his coverage constantly.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
But he's only gonna get strategic love. He's not gonna
get he's not gonna get tactical love.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
That's fine because when.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
The ball kicks off, the Vietnamese bodies are absolutely dropping.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Yeah, he's an Orange man, but.

Speaker 1 (51:21):
Washington, Washington the same way, just getting slapped around on
the battlefield and then rallying and making him do it again.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
He's getting the roster, right, do it again, Yeah, do
it again.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
It's like what you said your strategy in tennis would
be right. I don't have to hit a winner.

Speaker 2 (51:39):
You just gotta fuck up.

Speaker 1 (51:40):
I just got to give it back to you make
an air.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
It's not the worst strategy, Isn't that what Cinner does?

Speaker 1 (51:47):
No, Sinner also hits ball at that level, you do
any He does everything.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
Compared to like an Alcoraz. Al Karaz is just trying
to hit like the perfect shot and centers just like nope.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
Yeah, yeah, Center's defense is brick wall esque.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (52:02):
Uh. Meanwhile, Washington's opponent in the Revolution, General Corn Wallace
two point three eight wins above replacement.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
Okay? Was this made by the BBC?

Speaker 1 (52:16):
I don't know what nationality this guy is actually, I
gotta assume American.

Speaker 2 (52:23):
But yeah, that's your ignorance speaking.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
Yeah yeah, but uh, I mean he's doing a baseball
stat so I assume he's American.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
There's a couple of baseball fans Japim.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
True, Ethan could be Japanese.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
You don't know.

Speaker 1 (52:37):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (52:38):
It's like or Korean. Korean's adopted an American name.

Speaker 1 (52:42):
Yeah do they?

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Yeah, they're like Steve Tom Kim's name is not Tom.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Oh well, I thought he was an American.

Speaker 2 (52:49):
It's boy Young Kim. Okay.

Speaker 1 (52:51):
I thought he was like an American career.

Speaker 2 (52:52):
No, but Uh, Koreans that come over, they'll just adopt
an American name. It's like, just I don't don't call
me boy young. Yeah you can't say.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
I went to grade school with a Korean kid whose
first name was John, so yeah, he might have done
that too, probably, Yeah, never asked. I was just like, Okay,
your name is John. Uh, let's get into the crusades.

Speaker 2 (53:17):
Let's do it a lot richer than the lion Heart.

Speaker 1 (53:19):
Yeah, I'll get to him in a second. Uh saladeens
who were doing.

Speaker 2 (53:23):
For saladein as Yes, yes, yes, Saladean should be up there.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
He's goaded negative point five war how I actually don't know.

Speaker 2 (53:36):
Is Baldwin up there?

Speaker 1 (53:37):
I couldn't find Baldwin.

Speaker 2 (53:38):
Damn dude, is bald Winn't even real?

Speaker 1 (53:40):
This guy needs to make a list like a list.
It is just this graph you have to hover over,
and it drives me insane. But I found as many
people as I could. Uh, Richard, the Lionheart comes in
at positive point five wins we replacement. So they basically
just kind of fought each other to a draw, which
is what happened in the act In that actual crusade.

(54:01):
But yeah, I was surprised to see Saladin in the
in the red I would have thought he was positive.

Speaker 2 (54:09):
Yeah, he's like often regarded as one of the best
to do it.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
Yeah, so maybe that's strategically he's one of the best.
Don't know Rommel from World War two negative one point
five wins of replacement. Yeah, arguably the best German general
in the war.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
That's kind of on Hitler. I think whenever Rommel was
cooking and.

Speaker 1 (54:30):
Then had a real Jerry Jones situation.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
Hitler, Yeah, truly, he's straight up just did the Micah
Parson situation for equivalent of World War Two. It's like, Rommeel,
you can't be in the you can't be in the
desert anymore.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
Yeah. Oh, you want to counterattack that cute little beach
landing at Normandy with with tanks. Now, I'm pretty sure
they're coming over at Calai, shut the fuck up and
stand Down's.

Speaker 2 (54:53):
Just doing what the superior told him to do, and
that shouldn't really be a reflection of him.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
Fair enough.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Uh, justice for Rommel.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Oh, we we have another civil war guy. Here's two
more civil war guys. Actually are one of our low
key favorites, not for anything he did in the war.
General Burnside, just for those sweet sweet chops and that
are one of our favorite bars from back in the day.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
Truly go to that was a god bar in twenty fifteen.

Speaker 1 (55:27):
Oh peak Burnside's was.

Speaker 2 (55:30):
Blind Pig Burnside and Buckshot Baby next level. That's when
Austin was Austin. Yeah, before the comedians ruined it kind of.

Speaker 1 (55:41):
Even though Burnside got clowned at Fredericksburg, he actually was
moved to the Western Theater after that and performed well
in the Western Theater. Clock's in at point nine wins above.
Replacement stays positive. Fredericksburg, Texas. No, No, Fredericksburg, Virginia.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Like damn, dude, we're making wine on blood soilk.

Speaker 1 (55:59):
Soil grows good, good grows good grapes. They say the
grape tastes better when it suffers on the vine. If
you have suffering in the soil, just generations, it helps.
They should do it. Someone should put up some vineyards
at Arlington National Cemetery.

Speaker 2 (56:18):
Dude, war hero wine.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
Do we just figure it out? Make a vineyard in
a in a national.

Speaker 2 (56:27):
Up Dude, Think of how cool it would be to
go to a cemetery and you just get hammered.

Speaker 1 (56:36):
People used to do that all the time.

Speaker 2 (56:39):
Yeah, but the fact, but you get to go to
like a national cemetery.

Speaker 1 (56:43):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it'd be a blast.

Speaker 2 (56:44):
It's more of a tourist thing anyway, there's no but no,
nobody's sad going there except.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
For the couple family, a couple.

Speaker 2 (56:50):
Family members, some modern funerals, and they'd probably like a drink.
They would love a drink.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
Yeah, I think we saw the few real sadness.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
We get rid of income text and you can just
start putting wine cells to uh cope for that.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Yeah, put up put up wineries at all the national cemeteries. Okay,
another surprising one, or it would sound surprising, but I
actually understand this, uh because he was excellent in the
Civil War.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Wait before we get off this, what do we charge
like stadium prices at a cemetery or is it more reasonable?

Speaker 1 (57:26):
I think if you can prove you are one of
the bereaved, you get a discount. But for Normanis Stadium,
if you're.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Just kind of visiting, yeah, you're just checking things out.

Speaker 1 (57:36):
Yeah, there's there's a brievement discount. If you can prove
you have a relative in the cemetery, like a near relative,
now your great great grandpa.

Speaker 2 (57:42):
But we don't want to get crazy with the discount
like ten percent. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, it's like,
sorry for your troubles.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
We're a business.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
Here's two dollars off.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
Yeah, we're business. My empathy only extends so far.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Gotta make money.

Speaker 1 (57:58):
Yeah, grow up, that's what you you're sad about him.
That's what he fought for. That's what he fought and
died for. My ability to make money off the depressed.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Yes.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
General Custer comes in at point eight wins above replacement,
positive for his career, how because he crushed in the
Civil War.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Okay, not after, not after he took the biggest l.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
Yeah, a horrible l.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
That that alone should make you negative.

Speaker 1 (58:29):
I think it took a lot off. Okay, but yeah,
he uh comes in at point he he his Civil
War stuff was so good that he came in positive
wins above replacement, despite literally getting murdered in his final battle.

Speaker 2 (58:48):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (58:48):
I could not find Cortes. However, I did find a conquistador.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
Do you have conquistadors that aren't Quartez? Doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
I couldn't find Cortez, He's probably in there when you.

Speaker 2 (59:01):
Really count there like skirmishes though he has like fifty dudes,
he has fifty. I know he kills like ten thousand.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
The other side has a lot.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
Seems like he should be up there.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
He's he wasn't in like the easy to find like
super star guys. There's just like this huge pile in
the middle.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
Yeah. So uh.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
Francisco Pizarro, who I believe took out the Incas, let
me check on that.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
It's just, you know, it doesn't have the same value
as the Aztecs.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
It doesn't. But the Incas were actually, I think a
better empire in a lot of ways. Probably they were older,
they were more advanced, more.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Peaceful people, Eh sure, I mean not with the y
yeah yeah, not totally peaceful, but like compared to the
Aztecs were dicks.

Speaker 1 (59:46):
Yeah ye, yeah, they were better. They were better empire
than the Aztecs. Pizarro, who took out the Inca's one
point four windth ab of replacement, all right, did a
good jump. Our guy, Andrew Jackson one point eight positive.
I think he fought a lot of battles where he
was like overly advantaged.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Bat On New Orleans.

Speaker 1 (01:00:12):
Bat On New Orleans would be one where maybe he wasn't,
but he fought a lot of Indian battles.

Speaker 2 (01:00:17):
Yeah, it should be noted to give himself some scalps.

Speaker 1 (01:00:22):
Yeah, it should be noted that a hefty portion of
the negative whims above replacement were Native American names.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
Stay taking those l's man, what's Geronimo?

Speaker 1 (01:00:38):
So I could find gerantao. But I was just going
through the negatives to find funny ones. And it was
like every Indian you've ever heard of, sitting bowl, Yeah,
sitting bowl, like all of them, all of them, all.

Speaker 2 (01:00:50):
In the red. I gotta see who this ethan fella is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:56):
It got I saw one and I was like, oh,
I guess that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
He lost. I mean they lost.

Speaker 1 (01:01:00):
And then I just like kept looking in the negative
side and it was just like Indian, Indian, Indian, and
I was like, oh, bully, how could you tell?

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
It's like blood feather? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
It was all like those types of names. But Andrew
Jackson won a lot of battles against Native Americans, and
I think he had such a big advantage that he
didn't get the war points that say a Napoleon would
get or a Caesar would get.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25):
So Cyrus the Great not maybe Cyrus the not so Great.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Nah, I mean he comes in positive one point six
wins above replacement, Cyrus the mid I think Cyrus also
had massive advantages in most of the battles he went into.

Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
Yeah, I would say so.

Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
So you just don't score a lot of points for
an easy win. Essentially you covered.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
That's good, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:53):
The man who defeated Hannibal Sippio Africanus two point four
wins above replacement. He comes in late in the war.

Speaker 2 (01:02:05):
Yeah, but it doesn't he starts to kind of change
to the tides.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
He completely changes it. He doesn't lose, he doesn't, but
he also doesn't fight a ton.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
Of battles, all right, so he has a good he
has a good.

Speaker 1 (01:02:17):
Warper warper Yeah. The Hibib yeah, uh and the last
one I found and I put him on here just
because we did an episode on him.

Speaker 2 (01:02:29):
Darius, your guy, m hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:02:33):
Negative wins above replacement.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
There's only so many times you can pull the old
uh smell my hand to a horse.

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yeah. That and when you're bumping up against Alexander on
the schedule several times.

Speaker 2 (01:02:48):
Yeah, it's got me tough.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
Tough sled not it's just not what you want. You're
just not going to get a good result there.

Speaker 2 (01:02:55):
It's all bumb matchups.

Speaker 1 (01:02:57):
But I will drop this link in the disc cord
if it hasn't already been dropped, just put it as
a description. Yeah, we'll put it in the description too,
uh well.

Speaker 2 (01:03:05):
In the yeah yeah, for the Pageoon episode.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
This was one of my favorite things to ever play with.
What'd you learn today?

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
I learned this guy's models are broken clearly.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
Who do you think he underrated the most?

Speaker 2 (01:03:22):
Salahadeen over George Washington. Yeah, George Washington was a hack dude.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
He kind of was. He kind of was.

Speaker 2 (01:03:32):
All credit to my boy Lafiette.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Yeah, George Washington is a great man, one of the
greatest Americans ever. But he did not get it done
on the battlefield. Got it done elsewhere, not on the battlefield.
Saladeen massively underrated. I think Sherman's.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
Underrated demon list Baldwin.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Maybe I can't. I don't. You know again, you'll see
this thing and be like, how the fuck are you
supposed to find? People like? Look at this?

Speaker 2 (01:04:03):
Do you do? Your bald Wind impression always just me.
It always gets me.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
Do I have a bald wind pression?

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
When I was sixteen, I won a great battle and
I thought I'd live forever. Now I know I won't
see thirty no matter. You live in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
It's good? Is that good? I like it?

Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
All right?

Speaker 2 (01:04:25):
It just it kind of soothes me. It brings me peace.

Speaker 1 (01:04:28):
You when to do an ASMR for you?

Speaker 2 (01:04:30):
Okay, we just do an entire sketch as a bald
sleep too, all right? Why not fuck it? And you're
just talking about just Jerusalem for forty five minutes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Yeah, you must defend Jerusalem at all costs. It's small
than a city. It's just the Kingdom of Heaven.

Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
As you're moving chess pieces.

Speaker 1 (01:04:52):
Yeah, huh. He's like soft, little laugh ballion. You know
so little of the place of your destiny. I was like,
God has some stuff for you, like I like getting
me addicted to talking like that.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Yeah, I don't care if I don't care if the
audience cares for it, I do. I enjoy. It's so funny.

Speaker 1 (01:05:16):
That's Edward Norton, who's in the game.

Speaker 2 (01:05:23):
The game has been always will be war because war
war never changes.

Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Well, I think the key is just fight a lot
of battles and you'll probably be Okay.

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
It seems like this we need to just make our
own models.

Speaker 1 (01:05:41):
Oh hell, yes, I just found Saddam Hussein.

Speaker 2 (01:05:46):
Saddam, I guess technically count as a general.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
I guess so according to him, negative one point seven
wins above replacement.

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
He had a tough opposition.

Speaker 1 (01:05:58):
I think he was. They count him a lot of
a lot of those battles are the Iran Iraq?

Speaker 2 (01:06:02):
Yeah, that would make more sense. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Oh, and here's Mexican. I found Mexican War Santa Anna.

Speaker 2 (01:06:08):
I was gonna say, Santanna has to be like negative.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
Twelve, negative two point six.

Speaker 2 (01:06:13):
How is Santa Anna not worse than Washington? Santa Anna
is like the worst general to ever live.

Speaker 1 (01:06:19):
So I think he got dubs in the Mexican Revolution
of Independence.

Speaker 2 (01:06:24):
Against other Mexicans. No, no, that was against Spain whatever,
against other Mexicans. All right, fair enough, Well for the
Spanish then they were living in Mexico. They were Mexicans.

Speaker 1 (01:06:35):
If you're in Mexico and you speak Spanish, you are
immediately a Mexican.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
Uh yeah, I don't think Spain really, you know, pumped
the resources into Mexico that they should have. No, they
just it wasn't like us fight in England.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
No, they were strip mining. They weren't like super there.

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
So yeah, so yeah, it was the battle for who
could call themselves Mexican.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
Fair. That's fair, that's that's I'll allow that. But that's
all I got for today.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
I like that. I enjoyed that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:02):
I had a blast riding this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
I like to do this every day of the week
with you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:06):
Brother, you too, baby, No, I'll be I'm a lot closer. Yeah,
just pop in right down the street.

Speaker 2 (01:07:12):
Uh, my apartment's becoming more and more less close. It's
getting less cluttered, but it's more more livable. So you
got everything hung up. We're gonna have the Lopez in
on Sunday. We're gonna try to do a third mic.
Figure that out. He'll be in the middle of the couch.
Hell yeah, you'll see how big the couch is. Can't wait,
you can't can't tell how far away we are?

Speaker 1 (01:07:33):
Well, yeah, you'll finally know. Will my hand be on
Lopez's back?

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
Probably?

Speaker 1 (01:07:39):
I guess you'll find You'll have to see and find out.
You have to watch.

Speaker 2 (01:07:41):
Tune in tune in next episode.

Speaker 1 (01:07:43):
Yeah, Thank you guys. I love you guys as always.
Pop over to the Patreon so you can join the
discord if you haven't already.

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
This is the Patreon but no.

Speaker 1 (01:07:54):
I'm saying, pop over to the Patreon page. Like the
top of the penscord link the pin topic.

Speaker 2 (01:07:58):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it changed. The little link should be working.
It's a forever link now. I think I originally put
like a two day link on for some reason. I
don't know why that exists.

Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
Yeah, I was gonna say I never even.

Speaker 2 (01:08:08):
Heard of that, but I had to change the settings
for that. But yeah, it should be good. Keep an
eye out. We're gonna continue for the twenty dollars tier
do the sports show every week on a Wednesday, and
then also slowly release extra additional content as you know,
as we feel.

Speaker 1 (01:08:23):
Yep, yep, peep peep.

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
So we love you. Guess that's Rob hom Dan. You
just gotta saw served