March 3, 2025 • 38 mins
Detectives Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian from the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Unit travel to the site where PM Bentley’s was in 1983 with the owner as they investigate Theory #2, that something happened at PM Bentley’s. They discuss a witness who claimed he saw Karen with some bikers both inside and outside the bar and another witness who detailed her interaction with a man who allegedly claimed he was involved in her disappearance.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police
and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details
may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons.
While the events in cases discussed are based on real investigations,
some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes.
(00:25):
Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents.
All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness.
Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast,
but such discussions are not intended to and should not
(00:46):
be considered by the listener to be legal conclusions. All
persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a
court of law. Listener discretion is a.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something,
a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit.
In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold
cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details
and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You
will come along with real cold case detectives as they
(01:28):
investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice
for the victims and closure for their families. We believe
that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work
together to bring closure to cold cases because we know
that in these cases, somebody knows something.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Hello and welcome to Somebody Knows Something the Elgin Police
Department Cold Case Podcast. My name is Detective Andrew Howton.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
And I'm Detective Matt of Oaritanian.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
This season, we've been taking you along as we investigate
the case of Karen Sheepers, who disappeared on April sixteenth,
nineteen eighty three. In our last episode, we reviewed the
original theory that some in law enforcement had at the time,
which was that Karen simply left voluntarily. We also considered
the theory that Karen could have taken her own life.
Karen's family, friends, and coworkers all dismissed these options, and Matt,
(02:22):
I think we both agree that those scenarios are kind
of unlikely.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
In this episode, we move on to theory number two.
Something happened at PM Bentley's.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
That's right, and this investigation is going to be covered
over two episodes. For this episode, we will visit the
site where Karen was last scene and discuss the different
theories about what could have happened at PM Bentley's. Are
we returning to the scene of a crime. Well, this
location un lock the key to finding out what happened
to Karen. So let's see what we can find out about.
The last place we can confirm Karen was on April
(02:53):
sixteenth of nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Okay, So, PM Bentley's was a nightclub and bar that
hosted live music a couple of days a week. It
was located in a strip of the Meadowdale Shopping Center
in Carpersville, Illinois, on Route twenty five, just a little
north of Route sixty eight. We kind of thought the
best way to get an idea of how the place
looked and what it was like was to get with
the former owner, Frank, and he was gracious enough to
(03:16):
take us up there and help us kind of take
a tour of the area.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
All right, So we're gonna meet with Frank, the owner
of PM Bentley's back in eighty three, and we're here
in the parking lot. It's kind of a unique layout.
It looks like it used to be a mall. From
what our understanding is, you have a We initially thought
it was maybe closer to where this furniture store is.
There's a furniture store kind of on the corner. But
(03:40):
Frank kind of pointed us out. There's a dentist office
that you go inside the mall to get into the business.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
So it's almost like a mall within a mall, you know. Yeah,
so storefronts inside the.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Parking lot kind of wraps around where we're parked here
in the first row right in front of the entrance
to the door, would have been right around the area
where Karen parked. They said she parked in maybe the
third row, so you know, where we're sitting, we would
have seen where her car was from here.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Basically.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, but there's a huge overhang, so if you're hanging
out outside, you know, that night and smoking or whatever
it's it's going to be covered. That's pretty much the
business not here anymore. It's kind of a vacant building, but.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
A dentist office is now in the location of where
PM Bentleys would be located or would have been located.
There's a cell phone store, a couple other you know,
there's a pawn shop, a couple other locations of salon
that's tucked inside too.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, it looks like the only thing that was here
in eighty three was probably Ace hardware. Everything else is
kind of changed over the time.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
So but it seems like the layout is the same
edule it was.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Layout looks like the same from the aerial photos we've
had and from other conversations we've had with Frank on
the phone. So the building is basically identical. It's just
different tenants. But all right, let's head in and talk
to Frank.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
Sounds good.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
We headed inside the building and met with Frank and
his son. We spoke at length with him, and he
walked us around the building, showing us where the bar
was located and describing.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
It to us.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
I guess could you kind of just take us through
like your history with PM Bentley's, Like how did you
come into owning it?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Like how did you know about it?
Speaker 6 (05:14):
I had a restaurant in Eastern Date okay, camly Am
and always sold the family m A year later, yeah,
this place became available, okay, and going into your shopping
said current vision or at that time, Yeah, it would
be interesting. I had it as well, and he told
(05:36):
me how we would be okay, and that's how we
What what year did you open? Do you remember I
think it was nineteen eighty one or eighty.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Two, okay, and it was here we walked in. It's
like a dentist office. Now it looks like. But you
would come in this side door, and then how far
did it go back? It went back pretty far when
you walked in. He used to describe, like what it
would have looked like when you walked in. So you
walk in the front door.
Speaker 6 (05:59):
And okay, in this store, you can either go straight ahead, okay,
into the area where you cance and sit in the stage,
or you can go right into the bar, okay. And
then there's the Bible was a rectangle fire okay there, okay,
I have turny seats.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Where were the bathrooms at it? When you walk into
the bar, how would you get to the bathroom?
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Right there and right here on your left right there?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Okay, So you walk in the door and right up
as you came into the bathroom right.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
There, showing in the manas watching.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Was there a payphone in the business? No?
Speaker 6 (06:31):
It was not a payphone. Yes I was.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I was on this wall, right on the wall right here,
so right outside.
Speaker 6 (06:36):
The bathroom, these walls weren't here, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So you would walk in straight ahead and be like
the stage.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
And like the sitting there, separate bar and the fire
was spher right.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So if you were sitting and watching the band and
you went to get a drink at the bar, could
you see the bar from your seats or was it
in a separate room?
Speaker 6 (06:55):
No, you could see the bar most of the season.
You could see the bath front.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Okay, it's just this shi room.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
You couldn't see it, okay, But if you were in
the center and the other wall, you had a shot.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
If we're sitting over here and we're watching the vand
would we have waitresses would come to our table and
like service or would you do in the bar?
Speaker 6 (07:17):
We had we had girls run on drinks packing for him, okay,
and we also pike it also comes shoot at the
bar or get their own drink. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Right, So this area out here was like this back then,
and you would walk out and you'd still be inside
the bar. So you were gonna like stand out here
and talk. You could do that. If you're gonna smoke,
could you smoke in the bar. So you can smoke
in the bar. You can smoke out here, Like there'd
really be no reason to stand out in the elements
in the parking lot. It's cold where you know, you
(07:46):
can stand out here and like shoot the ship and
you have a cigarette and you know whatever. Yeah, all right,
So Matt, this place was pretty big. I mean I
think it was bigger than what I kind of anticipated
in my mind thinking about it. I'd driven past the
site and I just didn't realize how big it was.
And be inside, there were, at least how he described it,
quite a few tables, a stage, a bar, the bathrooms
(08:06):
were up front, and there's a payphone right there, which
is basically just how Eloise had described it to us
in the previous episode.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, the location in the layout, you know, was intriguing.
It's not really anything that I thought it would be.
I mean, when you walk out of the bar, there's
this big covered area before you exit the parking lot
and the vestible I guess you would call it as well,
and so is the parking lot. I almost kind of
describe it as like a mall within you know, within
a mall. So there's a lot of area inside where
(08:34):
people could hang out, you know, and stay out of
the elements. And Frank even told us that the guy
who checked ideas at the door would often walk girls
you know who were in the bar alone out of
their car, just to make sure that they were safe.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, speaking of safety, another thing we kind of want
to talk about is the patrons the bar head back then,
back in nineteen eighty three. So when we asked Frank,
his reaction kind of told us a lot. Yeah, what
was what type of client tel did you guys typically
get to the bar?
Speaker 6 (09:01):
You guys know that I wasn't here anywhere else?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Okay, we had we had.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
A pretty young crop young clientele.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
It was pretty common to have live bands play.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
We had, Yes, we had live bands.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (09:19):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Were you guys open every day during the week or every.
Speaker 6 (09:22):
Days every day week? We had entertainment six nights a week, okay?
Speaker 4 (09:27):
And what time did you guys open, like on.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
On an average four o'clock every day, four pm?
Speaker 4 (09:31):
And then what time was closing time?
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Two o'clock, two o'clock three on Sanday?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
So can you kind of you know, you were kind
of chuckling when we were asking you, like about the clientele.
You know that we're coming, can you if you don't
mind just kind of elaborating just because I don't I
don't really know. I know Andrew doesn't either, like when
you when that kind of makes you laugh. Was there
like just a specific type of crowd that would come
in all the time, or like rowdiness.
Speaker 6 (09:53):
Or like pretty okay?
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Okay, say, did you guys get like lots of fight.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Or like any issues or anything problems usually on the weekend? Okay, yeah,
not every weekend, but okay.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Was it something where you guys were like you kind
of like policed your own inside or did you have
to call the police places?
Speaker 6 (10:12):
Okay, yeah, okay, most sometimes we'd handle it. Yeah, but
most of the time we'd call it the police. Okay,
got it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
You didn't have it. It's not like a nightclub, so
you didn't have like bouncers.
Speaker 6 (10:21):
Set well, we had people at the door check and
I had.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Just checking ideas.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
Yeah, the doorm I used to walk single girls yeah
to their car if they wanted, Yeah, they scored them
out to the park. Okay.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So Frank's description really echoed what a lot of the
former employees and former patrons kind of told us about
the place. It sounds like it could get a little
bit rough on the weekends. There'd be these live bands.
Maybe you'd get people in you might have some issues,
you know, in the parking lot or in the bar
here and there. According to Frank, they end up closing
the bar sometime in nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty
six because the city wouldn't renew the lease.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know, there was something that Elouise told us about
what had happened, which was not in the original case file.
When we had talked to her recently, she told us
about an event in the adjacent parking lot that night
that Karen disappeared, and we thought that it might or
could be relevant to this investigation.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
That's right.
Speaker 7 (11:14):
When I got to the bar, I was kind of
surprised because the parking lot was very crowded, okay, and
part of it was there was a carnival going on, yeah,
and the carnival was very noisy, and then so people
were parking there to go to the carnival and then
of course go to the bar and whatever else stores
(11:35):
or whatever that were there.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
This carnival was never mentioned in the original reports, the
newspaper articles or statements that we have in the original
case file, but it made us at least consider that
this carnival could be related or that someone from the
carnival might have witnessed something or even had done something
to Karen. When we interviewed Frank, this information about the
carnival was pretty new, and we decided to ask him
(11:57):
about it.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Is the parking lot for which the same how it
was then in structure? Okay, we were told by somebody
that there was maybe a carnival the weekend that this
girl went missing. Do you remember any carnivals.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
Being every year the carnival came to town.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Do you remember any in the spring? I know there
was like a fall carnival Percino that we could find
and Dundee, but do you remember any spring?
Speaker 6 (12:18):
I remember was a spring carnival and it came he
Partners here and every year it came to Captainsvie the
crime why went up? Okay?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Do you remember, like as we're staying in the bar
looking out the door, like where the carnival would be
in relationship where we were at if you.
Speaker 6 (12:35):
Remember it was on the just the small used yeah, okay,
so the carnival was in that area back there, all
the way back.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Okay, so to the north end of the parking lots
here did you get.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
A lot of like patrons from the carnival that would
come to PM Bentleys and like drink and hang out
and everything. Did they ever cause like problems for you
or anything like that?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Okay, do you remember the company or like who put
on the carnival that I can remember that. Well, with
this new information from both Frank and Eloise, we got
to take a nice fun dive back into the world
of newspaper archives. So we went through microfilm, microfish, digital archives,
hard copy newspapers. You know a lot of the listeners
(13:21):
might have never even heard of things like microfilm. Yeah,
the clarity is really tough. It's you know, you're going
through these reels on a machine. It's really time consuming.
I think we both wanted to make sure that we
think the Gilboard and Public Library and the Daily Herald.
The library staff was really helpful. They got us access
to these different reels. They've gotten us access to old
yearbooks other documents, and the Daily Herald pointed us to
(13:43):
a great online archive that we've used to track down
a lot of old newspaper articles from the eighties. A
lot of those hard copies just don't exist anymore. So
it was really great to get their help on that.
After I don't know, a dozen hours going through all
these newspapers, we finally found an article in the nineteen
eighty three April fourth, nineteen eighty three to be exact,
Cardinal Free Press, which confirmed that there was a carnival
(14:06):
in the Meadowdale Shopping Center that spring.
Speaker 6 (14:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
The carnival was called the Greater American Carnival and it
was sponsored by the Meadowdale Businessman's Association. The carnival ran
from April fourteenth through April twenty fourth, right, yep, and
that was in the Meadowdale lot. Now that we can
confirm that Eloise was correct and there was in fact
a carnival that weekend, we wanted to ask any listeners
(14:30):
who have information about that spring carnival to please contact
us if you have, you know, any information if you
worked it, or if you attended it or help plan it,
and could shed you know, some light on things like
where the workers might have stayed, you know, in relation
to PM Bentley's or any other information that might be relevant.
Please please call us for contact us.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Yeah, and like Frank said, it would have been just
north of where she was located. So the parking lot
you know, was attached to where she would have parked
her car. So we're curious about people coming and going,
maybe where workers would have stayed if they were living
on site for the weekend, things like that. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
So, in our first few episodes, we had discussed the
hours leading up to Karen's disappearance, and we discussed that
Karen made a phone call from inside the bar, then
participated in a Hulhu contest, you know, Andrew, one coworker
thought that Karen might have actually won that contest.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Anyway, the thing is, we still don't know what happened
after that. After re examining this case, you know, we
learned that one coworker things she might have recalled something new.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Yeah, that's right. We're gonna talk about a coworker. We're
going to change her name for this podcast and call
her Daisy. She recalled walking out of the bar sometime
around one thirty am, and she told us recently that
she believed Karen might have walked out with her and
some other people. She can't be sure, but she thought
that she remembered some men hanging outside the entrance, maybe
leaning on the wall, smoking cigarettes, talking, and that Karen
(16:00):
have heard someone or had someone call out to her
and turned back towards the bar. You know, she said
it's been forty years, so she can't say for certain,
but she thought that Karen did walk out with them
and then went to her own car. So that's something
that you know, we thought was something new, that was
something we need to look at.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Yeah, you know, this information is intriguing because, on I
believe it was April twenty first of nineteen eighty three,
one witness claimed to have information about Karen both before
and after the hulhup contest, which does sound familiar, and
that man's name was David. The week Karen went missing,
(16:36):
David had reported to the police that he arrived at
PM Bentley's around roughly eight thirty or nine pm on
April fifteenth, and that Karen had caught his eye roughly
around nine thirty PM. Unfortunately, David had died several years ago,
so we can't interview him or speak with him now.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's true, But what we do have is a written
statement that he provided back in nineteen eighty three, and
we've decided that we're going to release that statement for
the first time here in this podcast. Here is David's
actual written police statement from December of nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 8 (17:10):
On April fifteenth, nineteen eighty three, I went to PM
Bentley's Bar in Carpentersville around eight thirty or nine pm.
While at the bar, I saw Karen Sheepers across from me.
I raised a glass towards her in gesture to buy
her a drink. She smiled and given nod as if
she said yes. Before I could buy her a drink,
a husky guy came up to her, so I backed away.
(17:31):
The time was around nine thirty PM. I left the
bar around twelve fifty am to get some fresh air.
Before I left, there were people going buy me to
their cars, so I glanced up for only a moment.
Then around one oh five am, I was standing by
my brother's van and I heard two people arguing and
swearing at each other. I could hear the girl calling
him a bastard a few times, then the guy kept
(17:53):
calling her an asshole or some name. Other people were
around listening to it as well, but kind of joking
about it. After a few minutes, they seemed to disappear
or get into a car. When I got in the van,
I drove to the area where the two people were
I saw a shadow of a guy and a girl
in a light colored car like a Ford or Buick.
There was a dark red car next to them with
(18:15):
blue speckles. The other car was a dark colored car.
After going by them, I went home. I did see
a couple of Harley Choppers and a couple of other
bikes parked in the front of PM Bentley's. The guy
I saw with Karen was about sixty two to six four,
about two forty to two hundred and fifty pounds. He
had curly hair to about his shoulders, and he was
(18:36):
wearing a black leather or suede motorcycle jacket, and he
had a full beard.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
So, in conjunction with that statement, David had told police
that he believed the woman he saw that was involved
in that argument in the parking lot was indeed Karen.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
And beyond just the written statement that he gave him December,
he gave two police interviews where he actually talked with
the police. One of those was on April twenty first,
which was just a couple days after Karen disappeared, and
one was this December interview about seven months later. He
described the mail in his two interviews in two different ways,
and this is something I think that's kind of important
to highlight. I know, in my experience and I'm sure
(19:13):
in yours witnesses wat him change some details when time passes.
So for David, these interviews are about eight months apart.
Seven eight months apart. It doesn't shock me that some
of the details have changed, but there are some stark
differences that I think we both wanted to talk about.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Yeah, So on April twenty first, David described the man
that he saw with a woman he believed to be
Karen in the following way. He described the individual to
be a white male about five eight to five nine,
with a bushy beard, big arms, shoulder length hair, and
in his late twenties or maybe early thirties. He also
estimated that he saw Karen with the biker at the
(19:49):
bar around eleven thirty and not nine to thirty PM.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, that kind of changed a little bit. And then
in December he provided a written statement, and in that
statement he talks about the guy being a white male
who's about sixty two to sixty four, about two hundred
and forty to two hundred and fifty pounds, with curly
hair that hung down to his shoulders in a full beard.
This time, he estimated that the time was around nine
thirty or nine to forty five, and like you said,
(20:13):
on the twenty first, he thought it was maybe eleven thirty,
so that kind of changed.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Yeah, well, the timeframe of nine thirty or nine forty
five PM versus eleven thirty PM isn't really that important.
We do know that Karen was inside the bar until
at least twelve thirty am on the night of the sixteenth,
so it is entirely possible that David saw her and
raised his glass to her at any time between nine
pm and twelve thirty am.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
That's right. What's more important is this guy that reportedly
went up to talk to Karen, And I would note
that David does describe the hair and the beard both
pretty much the same in the two statements, even though
some of those other descriptors change over time. He kind
of makes the guy sound bigger and more menacing as
time passes, which could be you know a number of things.
I don't know. Maybe he's just thinking about it now
(21:00):
in December and you know, building up in his mind.
Who knows, but five nine to six four is kind
of a big difference.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Right, Yeah, sure is. He described the guy was wearing
a leather or a Swede type motorcycle club jacket in
both of his interviews too, but there's no mention of
any patches or rockers or any specific markings for the
jacket or anything like that. David had used this term
motorcycle jack in one of his interviews, so he clearly
(21:29):
was linking the guy as some kind of you know,
outwardly appearing type, you know, biker. I had spent you know,
a number of years in the Elgin Gang unit. I
know that we still have some motorcycle gangs that operate
in the area in the nineteen eighties, we'd been told
by former investigators there were certainly active motorcycle gangs and
groups in both Carpentersville and Elgin. Unfortunately, David didn't have
(21:55):
any information about patches or colors or rockers that could
help us narrow down the guy he allegedly had seen.
After talking to Frank, we think we know why David
might not have been able to provide more details about
this person. He claimed was talking to Karen, what.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
About like motorcycles, Like, was there a group of guys
would come here that were like motorcycle.
Speaker 6 (22:15):
Type we had. We had motorcycle people come in here,
but we wouldn't allow them to bring their.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Colors, okay, so like they'd be like a like a
motorcycle gang that they wouldn't have any of their like
any other cuts or anything like that.
Speaker 6 (22:29):
Okay. And we had a couple of couple We had
one guy that owned the motorcycle shop and mc henry
or somewhere. Yeah, and he was a pretty big company
and he knew all the motorcycles and all the bikers okay,
and he was on our side.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, so he kept all out of them, Okay.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Quiet, do you remember were they like outlaws or like
any specific gangs?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Me?
Speaker 4 (22:53):
And I know, you didn't let the colors or the
cuts come in or anything like that, So it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Keep it.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Yeah, So the bar had tried to curb issues with
motorcycle gangs, you know, and their activity within the bar.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah, And I mean it makes sense. It's definitely kind
of clarifies to us that there were certainly motorcycle gangs
and motorcycle guys that would hang around this area. You know,
you would make sense to put a policy in place that, hey,
we don't want these guys wearing colors in the bars.
We don't want to have problems.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah, and for anybody that's listening, if anyone recalls anything
similar to this argument at PM Bentley's that we you know,
would or could clear up this altercation that David said
he witnessed, please call us. Maybe it has nothing to
do with Karen, or maybe it has everything to do
with her. We just don't know. And if you have
that information, we'd like to find out.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Or if somebody remembers talking to Karen, buying her a drink,
or any other contact they might have had with her,
please contact us. We're still working to speak with as
many people who were present at the bar that night
as possible.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Yeah, So again, this is a huge part of this
podcast and why we were giving out this type of information.
You know, we are trying to really spark a memory
for people so that new witnesses can come forward.
Speaker 6 (24:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
One thing that we both found important in David's statements
is that David later said that when he left and
he estimated the time around twelve to fifty am on
the night of the sixteenth, or I should say the morning,
he left alone and saw several men in bikes outside
of the bar in the far west lot, and some
Harley Davidson's parked directly in front of the bar. That
(24:26):
coworker Daisy. She also described people hanging around as she
left the bar with several people, including potentially Karen, and
the timeframe is pretty close to David's. I mean, we
were talking about people estimating a time they left the
bar and all saying it was kind of around one am.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yeah, David reported that about one oh five am, and
again we're estimating, I mean, people are drinking at a bar.
But around one oh five am he saw a woman
who he thought was Karen talking to the same guy
from the bar. Outside the bar. He heard someone call
somebody a bass and while the group of bikers around
him started laughing, you know, David kind of left and
(25:05):
saw these people talking.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
In one of his interviews, David also described that he
saw the woman being placed into a car, which he
described as a light colored medium sized vehicle, park next
to a newer, dark in color Compact Sedan with Wisconsin plates.
He also said that he saw a man and a
woman in a light colored Ford or a Buick park
(25:28):
next to a kind of distinctive car that was dark
red with blue metallics speckles on it. And that would
be if we went back to the written statement, right.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yep, his written statement.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
So his written statement includes some of that detail, but
it doesn't include some of the things he later said
in his fertile interviews. You know, we've read all of
the interviews and police reports and overall they include that
level of detail.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yeah again, Mad, it kind of highlights the difference that
we see in these older cases, and it, you know, honestly,
can be a little bit frustrating. The witnesses in these
old cases would often provide some sort of written statement
like we provided with David. Then they would give these long,
in depth interviews to the police, where the police would
just either take notes or just write a report about
what the person said. Oftentimes, those statements that the detectives
(26:17):
wrote down had way more detailed than the written statement did.
And it's clear that the written statements were not as
in depth as the interview was. But we don't have
any audio, we don't have any video. You know, today
we would sit down body your cameras, we would record everybody,
and we would just have the full transcript. But we
just don't have that in this type of case.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Yeah, another thing that was common back then was a
polygraph or also known as a lie detector test. David
did take a polygraph as part of this investigation. Now
these things aren't admissible in court, but you know, polygraphs
and an individual's reaction to being asked to take one
can be useful for investigators. For instance, if a person
is completely reluctant to take one, I think police at
(27:02):
that time, especially you know, honed in a little more
than the nod on a person due to their lack
or level of cooperation. But if it seems like if
someone had passed a polygraph, maybe they moved on, you know,
which could also be problematic, Maybe they missed something.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, I mean I think that sometimes it looks like
you would look at a suspect they'd pass a polygraph
or partially pass a polygraph, and police would just kind
of say, Okay, we're going to move forward. That obviously,
like you said, can be problematic. Right. We've heard from
a number of law enforcement sources that worked in the
eighties and used polygraphs, and I think we both kind
would agree. What they kind of tell you is you know,
(27:40):
you want a really accomplished, practiced examiner, And they said
that the examiner is almost as important as the test
itself because they could really drive those results, which is
probably why some of these things aren't in missible in court.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Yeah, like you know, I had said, David did take
one in December of nineteen eighty three. And here's the
actual polygraph questions and the answers from the original case
file that we had found.
Speaker 9 (28:05):
On April sixteenth, nineteen eighty three, did you talk to
Karen Sheepers in the parking lot of PM Bentley's No.
Did you harm Karen in any way?
Speaker 6 (28:18):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:19):
Do you know what happened to Karen?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:24):
On April sixteenth, nineteen eighty three, did you see Karen
arguing with an unknown white male?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
No?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
No, Matt, I'm not sure why he said he did
not see Karen arguing in the parking lot when his
statement says that that's what he saw. Maybe the question
was too broad, or he wasn't sure it was actually
Karen who he saw. But the examiner's findings for all
the questions were as follows.
Speaker 9 (28:52):
It is the opinion of the examiner based on the
subject's polygraph records. That he is suffering from some emotion defect,
which precludes the examiner from submitting a definite report at
this time.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Okay, so the examiner noted in the record that it
contained quote erratic and unexplained emotional disturbances. I think it's
basically just a fancy way to say David's test was
just it was inconclusive.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, I'd love to know more about that, right, Well,
at least we know that there were certainly bikers who
are around that night, And to be honest, David inserting
himself into this investigation might be very important too. Maybe
he did see Karen or talk to her, or maybe
he actually did try to buy her a drink.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, it's obviously hard to note at this point. I mean,
he claims that he made eye contact with her and
wanted to buy her a drink. One thing we do
know from his interviews and for our interviews with different coworkers,
is that David claimed that Karen went off with this
burly kind of biker guy to a booth and sat
and drank with this guy. Now, all the coworkers we've
talked to said they were very very confident that Karen
(30:00):
was with them. The entire night. Their group didn't mingle
with other people. They had someone waiting on their tables.
They could have gone up to the bar, but the
way Frank described the bar, it would have been kind
of a hike from where they were sitting to go
all the way around to the bar to do that.
And they had a girl who was waiting their table,
So their account, you know, the woman might just not
be Karen. That might be the reality.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah, Well, we do have other witnesses who recall seeing
motorcycles parked in the lot and things like that. You know,
we had talked to some local law enforcement from around
that time period, and they described the bar as kind
of a you know, a blue collar and a working
class bar. There were bikers in the area at that time,
and it would not have been uncommon for motorcycles to
(30:42):
be at that bar too. Some of Karen's coworkers echoed
that description when we had talked to them, So it's
hard to rule out the fact that David could have
made contact with Karen or also some biker, whether it
was inside or outside the bar.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, and those same law enforcement people we talked to
from that time, they said the bar had a bit
of a reputation with bikers, and that goes along with
David's statement. It also goes along with some things that
you know, Frank was told telling us about having bikers there,
making sure they didn't wear their colors in the bar,
stuff like that. But I think for a biker to
have taken Karen and then her car to disappear, there's
just a lot of moving parts to that that maybe
(31:18):
make it a little bit less likely.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
Yes, And again, Karen's car is a huge part of
this case. Either someone would have had to have hidden
it or forced their way into a car, you know,
be allowed into the car by Karen, or if she
left with some biker in some other car around a bike,
someone would have had to have come back to the
bar and then taken care of the car.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, and we did talk to Frank about towing, and
they said they didn't really have a situation where like
today you would have a posted sign that says, you know,
ABC Towing will tow this car to this location if
it stays here overnight. He basically said that if something
like that were to happen, they would just call the
owners of the bar and they would say, hey, there's
(31:59):
a car parked in the law, like, do you know
whose car it is? Kind of deal. Yeah, So we
don't have any record of our car being towed out
of there. And like we talked about before, it was
a manual transmission, so someone would have to be able
to drive that. I mean, that's pretty common back in
eighty three, but it's still just something to remember exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Then you would have had to have disposed of that
car somewhere, and it has never been found for over
forty one years.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, I mean it is possible. I suppose. We can't
say one way or the other, and we can't really
determine if this biker that David says he saw actually
talked to Karen or if it was some other person.
It's certainly possible that something happened at the bar and
that this biker or something else at the bar could
have been what caused Karen to disappear. So we have
to keep that option kind of on the table now.
(32:43):
But you know, we got to kind of keep moving
forward and looking at other things too.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
That's right. And there was another person that came up
regarding PM Bentleys a few days after Karen's disappearance that
we also need to talk about a woman that we're
going to call. Jessica told police shortly after Karen's disappearance
that she had information that might be related to Karen's case.
(33:09):
Jessica stated that she was at PM Bentley's on April
twenty fourth, which was the Saturday after Karen had been
reported missing.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yes, it's exactly one week later.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Yeah, the following weekend, yep. I mean, obviously Karen's disappearance
was kind of a big thing in that area at
that time, especially at the bar. Anyways, Jessica said that
she was at the bar with her sister and that
they met these two men inside the bar. The group
was understandably talking about Karen's disappearance and everything associated with it,
(33:41):
and Jessica's sister said that, quote unquote, some weirdo probably
abducted her.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Jessica then said that she and her sister left the
bar around two forty five am to go to another
local place for coffee with these two guys that they
just met. I would note that the bar closed it too,
so I don't know if that discrepancy makes sense or not,
but just to throw it in there, Jessica claimed that
her sister rode with one of the men, and Jessica
was going to drive the car that they drove to
(34:06):
go meet these guys for coffee, and that this friend
of the guy walked out with her and he walked
over by this beije Van that he was driving. That's
what things got a little bit weird, at least according
to Jessica. Jessica claimed that she and this guy were
staying in the parking lot for like ten or fifteen minutes,
just kind of talking, and the guy said this.
Speaker 9 (34:26):
You know, d weirdo.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
Your sister was talking about, Well, you're looking at him.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
The man also reportedly had told Jessica that he was
going to rape her. Jessica did not know if this
guy was involved in Kieran's disappearance, but she had contacted
the local authorities to tell them about him. Anyways, you know,
I think this is a good reminder that even if
this guy was not involved, somebody said something in any
of these cases, and even in cases that we investigate,
(34:53):
you know, in real time. Today, we want people to
know that the police are never going to judge you
for bringing us information. Other people contact us and tell
us information then think, oh, I don't want to bother them.
It's probably nothing. No detail is too small, no tip,
you know, tip is too small. We want to make
sure that we investigate anything that comes through.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, any information that people give us, we're going to
run it down. If it turns out to be nothing,
I mean, that's fine, that's what we're here for. That's
our job.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Jessica was able to provide a full name, you know,
for the man that she had met that night, and
police did talk to him. He had lived in the
area and police determine that he had no criminal history
from what we had read. He claimed that while he
did have a conversation with Jessica, she was completely fabricating
and making up any of the things that she had
claimed he had said. But you know, we should also
(35:39):
note here Andrew that you know, this guy did not
match really in any way the description of the biker
that David had described in his interviews.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, that's that's true. So our point with telling these
different statements and these different stories is that we want
to make sure any of our listeners contact us if
they remember anything similar. If you have a story similar
to jess story, please contact us. And if you have
any issues that you had or remember any issues at
the bar with bikers, or remember some sort of argument
(36:08):
this night when Karen went missing. Please contact us. You
can do it anonymously. You can give us your information
whatever you prefer. But like Matt said before, what you
know is more important than who you are to us.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Yeah, you know, we've talked a lot about the bar, David,
and this other weird interaction in the parking lot with
the van. We need to really talk about the employees too.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Here.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
We know one employee recalled seeing Karen in the bathroom
and talking to her about the TV show Dallas at
that time, and other employees remembered seeing her roughly around
one am on the night at the sixteenth. But there
are several employees who we've not been able to track
down and who were never interviewed that we would like
to speak to.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Yeah, that's true, Matt. We know a girl, like I
said before, was serving their table and we've never been
able to talk to her. Police never interviewed her in
nineteen eighty three, so we feel like she would be
someone to be very important for us to talk to.
We're trying to track her down. We also had identified
and interviewed one more new witness, a woman who worked
at PM Bentley's but quit shortly before Karen disappeared. She
(37:07):
provided a shocking revelation that could potentially take us investigation
a totally new direction. Next time on Somebody Knows Something,
we continue our investigation into the last place that Karen
Sheepers was seen alive. PM Bentley's in Carpentersville, Illinois. During
(37:31):
the initial investigation in nineteen eighty three, PM Bentley's owner
provided the police with a list of employees who worked
that night that Karen disappeared. He also told police that
just two months before Karen vanished, a female employee reported
that a man followed her home from the bar after
she got off work. That employee was never interviewed, and
when we recently tracked her down, she told us that
(37:51):
someone did a whole lot more and just followed her home.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Or anyone you know has information about this case or
any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin
Police Department Cold Case email at cold Case tips at
elginil dot gov or the Cold Case tip line at
eight four seven two eight nine cold You can also
review cold case information on the Elgin Police Department's Transparency
(38:22):
Hub by going to elginil dot gov and navigating to
the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every cold case, homicide,
and missing person's case is listed with photographs and information
about each case.
This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police
and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details
may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons.
While the events in cases discussed are based on real investigations,
some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes.
(00:25):
Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents.
All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness.
Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast,
but such discussions are not intended to and should not
(00:46):
be considered by the listener to be legal conclusions. All
persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a
court of law. Listener discretion is a.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something,
a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit.
In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold
cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details
and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You
will come along with real cold case detectives as they
(01:28):
investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice
for the victims and closure for their families. We believe
that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work
together to bring closure to cold cases because we know
that in these cases, somebody knows something.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
Hello and welcome to Somebody Knows Something the Elgin Police
Department Cold Case Podcast. My name is Detective Andrew Howton.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
And I'm Detective Matt of Oaritanian.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
This season, we've been taking you along as we investigate
the case of Karen Sheepers, who disappeared on April sixteenth,
nineteen eighty three. In our last episode, we reviewed the
original theory that some in law enforcement had at the time,
which was that Karen simply left voluntarily. We also considered
the theory that Karen could have taken her own life.
Karen's family, friends, and coworkers all dismissed these options, and Matt,
(02:22):
I think we both agree that those scenarios are kind
of unlikely.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Yeah, we do.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
In this episode, we move on to theory number two.
Something happened at PM Bentley's.
Speaker 4 (02:31):
That's right, and this investigation is going to be covered
over two episodes. For this episode, we will visit the
site where Karen was last scene and discuss the different
theories about what could have happened at PM Bentley's. Are
we returning to the scene of a crime. Well, this
location un lock the key to finding out what happened
to Karen. So let's see what we can find out about.
The last place we can confirm Karen was on April
(02:53):
sixteenth of nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 5 (02:55):
Okay, So, PM Bentley's was a nightclub and bar that
hosted live music a couple of days a week. It
was located in a strip of the Meadowdale Shopping Center
in Carpersville, Illinois, on Route twenty five, just a little
north of Route sixty eight. We kind of thought the
best way to get an idea of how the place
looked and what it was like was to get with
the former owner, Frank, and he was gracious enough to
(03:16):
take us up there and help us kind of take
a tour of the area.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
All right, So we're gonna meet with Frank, the owner
of PM Bentley's back in eighty three, and we're here
in the parking lot. It's kind of a unique layout.
It looks like it used to be a mall. From
what our understanding is, you have a We initially thought
it was maybe closer to where this furniture store is.
There's a furniture store kind of on the corner. But
(03:40):
Frank kind of pointed us out. There's a dentist office
that you go inside the mall to get into the business.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
So it's almost like a mall within a mall, you know. Yeah,
so storefronts inside the.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Parking lot kind of wraps around where we're parked here
in the first row right in front of the entrance
to the door, would have been right around the area
where Karen parked. They said she parked in maybe the
third row, so you know, where we're sitting, we would
have seen where her car was from here.
Speaker 5 (04:04):
Basically.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, but there's a huge overhang, so if you're hanging
out outside, you know, that night and smoking or whatever
it's it's going to be covered. That's pretty much the
business not here anymore. It's kind of a vacant building, but.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
A dentist office is now in the location of where
PM Bentleys would be located or would have been located.
There's a cell phone store, a couple other you know,
there's a pawn shop, a couple other locations of salon
that's tucked inside too.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, it looks like the only thing that was here
in eighty three was probably Ace hardware. Everything else is
kind of changed over the time.
Speaker 4 (04:38):
So but it seems like the layout is the same
edule it was.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Layout looks like the same from the aerial photos we've
had and from other conversations we've had with Frank on
the phone. So the building is basically identical. It's just
different tenants. But all right, let's head in and talk
to Frank.
Speaker 6 (04:52):
Sounds good.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
We headed inside the building and met with Frank and
his son. We spoke at length with him, and he
walked us around the building, showing us where the bar
was located and describing.
Speaker 6 (05:04):
It to us.
Speaker 4 (05:06):
I guess could you kind of just take us through
like your history with PM Bentley's, Like how did you
come into owning it?
Speaker 3 (05:13):
Like how did you know about it?
Speaker 6 (05:14):
I had a restaurant in Eastern Date okay, camly Am
and always sold the family m A year later, yeah,
this place became available, okay, and going into your shopping
said current vision or at that time, Yeah, it would
be interesting. I had it as well, and he told
(05:36):
me how we would be okay, and that's how we
What what year did you open? Do you remember I
think it was nineteen eighty one or eighty.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
Two, okay, and it was here we walked in. It's
like a dentist office. Now it looks like. But you
would come in this side door, and then how far
did it go back? It went back pretty far when
you walked in. He used to describe, like what it
would have looked like when you walked in. So you
walk in the front door.
Speaker 6 (05:59):
And okay, in this store, you can either go straight ahead, okay,
into the area where you cance and sit in the stage,
or you can go right into the bar, okay. And
then there's the Bible was a rectangle fire okay there, okay,
I have turny seats.
Speaker 3 (06:16):
Where were the bathrooms at it? When you walk into
the bar, how would you get to the bathroom?
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Right there and right here on your left right there?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Okay, So you walk in the door and right up
as you came into the bathroom right.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
There, showing in the manas watching.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Was there a payphone in the business? No?
Speaker 6 (06:31):
It was not a payphone. Yes I was.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
I was on this wall, right on the wall right here,
so right outside.
Speaker 6 (06:36):
The bathroom, these walls weren't here, yeah, all right.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
So you would walk in straight ahead and be like
the stage.
Speaker 6 (06:42):
And like the sitting there, separate bar and the fire
was spher right.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
So if you were sitting and watching the band and
you went to get a drink at the bar, could
you see the bar from your seats or was it
in a separate room?
Speaker 6 (06:55):
No, you could see the bar most of the season.
You could see the bath front.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Okay, it's just this shi room.
Speaker 6 (07:01):
You couldn't see it, okay, But if you were in
the center and the other wall, you had a shot.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
If we're sitting over here and we're watching the vand
would we have waitresses would come to our table and
like service or would you do in the bar?
Speaker 6 (07:17):
We had we had girls run on drinks packing for him, okay,
and we also pike it also comes shoot at the
bar or get their own drink. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Right, So this area out here was like this back then,
and you would walk out and you'd still be inside
the bar. So you were gonna like stand out here
and talk. You could do that. If you're gonna smoke,
could you smoke in the bar. So you can smoke
in the bar. You can smoke out here, Like there'd
really be no reason to stand out in the elements
in the parking lot. It's cold where you know, you
(07:46):
can stand out here and like shoot the ship and
you have a cigarette and you know whatever. Yeah, all right,
So Matt, this place was pretty big. I mean I
think it was bigger than what I kind of anticipated
in my mind thinking about it. I'd driven past the
site and I just didn't realize how big it was.
And be inside, there were, at least how he described it,
quite a few tables, a stage, a bar, the bathrooms
(08:06):
were up front, and there's a payphone right there, which
is basically just how Eloise had described it to us
in the previous episode.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, the location in the layout, you know, was intriguing.
It's not really anything that I thought it would be.
I mean, when you walk out of the bar, there's
this big covered area before you exit the parking lot
and the vestible I guess you would call it as well,
and so is the parking lot. I almost kind of
describe it as like a mall within you know, within
a mall. So there's a lot of area inside where
(08:34):
people could hang out, you know, and stay out of
the elements. And Frank even told us that the guy
who checked ideas at the door would often walk girls
you know who were in the bar alone out of
their car, just to make sure that they were safe.
Speaker 3 (08:45):
Yeah, speaking of safety, another thing we kind of want
to talk about is the patrons the bar head back then,
back in nineteen eighty three. So when we asked Frank,
his reaction kind of told us a lot. Yeah, what
was what type of client tel did you guys typically
get to the bar?
Speaker 6 (09:01):
You guys know that I wasn't here anywhere else?
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Okay, we had we had.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
A pretty young crop young clientele.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
It was pretty common to have live bands play.
Speaker 6 (09:16):
We had, Yes, we had live bands.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Okay.
Speaker 6 (09:19):
Correct.
Speaker 4 (09:19):
Were you guys open every day during the week or every.
Speaker 6 (09:22):
Days every day week? We had entertainment six nights a week, okay?
Speaker 4 (09:27):
And what time did you guys open, like on.
Speaker 6 (09:29):
On an average four o'clock every day, four pm?
Speaker 4 (09:31):
And then what time was closing time?
Speaker 6 (09:33):
Two o'clock, two o'clock three on Sanday?
Speaker 4 (09:36):
So can you kind of you know, you were kind
of chuckling when we were asking you, like about the clientele.
You know that we're coming, can you if you don't
mind just kind of elaborating just because I don't I
don't really know. I know Andrew doesn't either, like when
you when that kind of makes you laugh. Was there
like just a specific type of crowd that would come
in all the time, or like rowdiness.
Speaker 6 (09:53):
Or like pretty okay?
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Okay, say, did you guys get like lots of fight.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
Or like any issues or anything problems usually on the weekend? Okay, yeah,
not every weekend, but okay.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
Was it something where you guys were like you kind
of like policed your own inside or did you have
to call the police places?
Speaker 6 (10:12):
Okay, yeah, okay, most sometimes we'd handle it. Yeah, but
most of the time we'd call it the police. Okay,
got it.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
You didn't have it. It's not like a nightclub, so
you didn't have like bouncers.
Speaker 6 (10:21):
Set well, we had people at the door check and
I had.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Just checking ideas.
Speaker 6 (10:25):
Yeah, the doorm I used to walk single girls yeah
to their car if they wanted, Yeah, they scored them
out to the park. Okay.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
So Frank's description really echoed what a lot of the
former employees and former patrons kind of told us about
the place. It sounds like it could get a little
bit rough on the weekends. There'd be these live bands.
Maybe you'd get people in you might have some issues,
you know, in the parking lot or in the bar
here and there. According to Frank, they end up closing
the bar sometime in nineteen eighty five or nineteen eighty
six because the city wouldn't renew the lease.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
You know, there was something that Elouise told us about
what had happened, which was not in the original case file.
When we had talked to her recently, she told us
about an event in the adjacent parking lot that night
that Karen disappeared, and we thought that it might or
could be relevant to this investigation.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
That's right.
Speaker 7 (11:14):
When I got to the bar, I was kind of
surprised because the parking lot was very crowded, okay, and
part of it was there was a carnival going on, yeah,
and the carnival was very noisy, and then so people
were parking there to go to the carnival and then
of course go to the bar and whatever else stores
(11:35):
or whatever that were there.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
This carnival was never mentioned in the original reports, the
newspaper articles or statements that we have in the original
case file, but it made us at least consider that
this carnival could be related or that someone from the
carnival might have witnessed something or even had done something
to Karen. When we interviewed Frank, this information about the
carnival was pretty new, and we decided to ask him
(11:57):
about it.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
Is the parking lot for which the same how it
was then in structure? Okay, we were told by somebody
that there was maybe a carnival the weekend that this
girl went missing. Do you remember any carnivals.
Speaker 6 (12:10):
Being every year the carnival came to town.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
Do you remember any in the spring? I know there
was like a fall carnival Percino that we could find
and Dundee, but do you remember any spring?
Speaker 6 (12:18):
I remember was a spring carnival and it came he
Partners here and every year it came to Captainsvie the
crime why went up? Okay?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
Do you remember, like as we're staying in the bar
looking out the door, like where the carnival would be
in relationship where we were at if you.
Speaker 6 (12:35):
Remember it was on the just the small used yeah, okay,
so the carnival was in that area back there, all
the way back.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Okay, so to the north end of the parking lots
here did you get.
Speaker 4 (12:51):
A lot of like patrons from the carnival that would
come to PM Bentleys and like drink and hang out
and everything. Did they ever cause like problems for you
or anything like that?
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Okay, do you remember the company or like who put
on the carnival that I can remember that. Well, with
this new information from both Frank and Eloise, we got
to take a nice fun dive back into the world
of newspaper archives. So we went through microfilm, microfish, digital archives,
hard copy newspapers. You know a lot of the listeners
(13:21):
might have never even heard of things like microfilm. Yeah,
the clarity is really tough. It's you know, you're going
through these reels on a machine. It's really time consuming.
I think we both wanted to make sure that we
think the Gilboard and Public Library and the Daily Herald.
The library staff was really helpful. They got us access
to these different reels. They've gotten us access to old
yearbooks other documents, and the Daily Herald pointed us to
(13:43):
a great online archive that we've used to track down
a lot of old newspaper articles from the eighties. A
lot of those hard copies just don't exist anymore. So
it was really great to get their help on that.
After I don't know, a dozen hours going through all
these newspapers, we finally found an article in the nineteen
eighty three April fourth, nineteen eighty three to be exact,
Cardinal Free Press, which confirmed that there was a carnival
(14:06):
in the Meadowdale Shopping Center that spring.
Speaker 6 (14:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
The carnival was called the Greater American Carnival and it
was sponsored by the Meadowdale Businessman's Association. The carnival ran
from April fourteenth through April twenty fourth, right, yep, and
that was in the Meadowdale lot. Now that we can
confirm that Eloise was correct and there was in fact
a carnival that weekend, we wanted to ask any listeners
(14:30):
who have information about that spring carnival to please contact
us if you have, you know, any information if you
worked it, or if you attended it or help plan it,
and could shed you know, some light on things like
where the workers might have stayed, you know, in relation
to PM Bentley's or any other information that might be relevant.
Please please call us for contact us.
Speaker 3 (14:50):
Yeah, and like Frank said, it would have been just
north of where she was located. So the parking lot
you know, was attached to where she would have parked
her car. So we're curious about people coming and going,
maybe where workers would have stayed if they were living
on site for the weekend, things like that. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:10):
So, in our first few episodes, we had discussed the
hours leading up to Karen's disappearance, and we discussed that
Karen made a phone call from inside the bar, then
participated in a Hulhu contest, you know, Andrew, one coworker
thought that Karen might have actually won that contest.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:26):
Anyway, the thing is, we still don't know what happened
after that. After re examining this case, you know, we
learned that one coworker things she might have recalled something new.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Yeah, that's right. We're gonna talk about a coworker. We're
going to change her name for this podcast and call
her Daisy. She recalled walking out of the bar sometime
around one thirty am, and she told us recently that
she believed Karen might have walked out with her and
some other people. She can't be sure, but she thought
that she remembered some men hanging outside the entrance, maybe
leaning on the wall, smoking cigarettes, talking, and that Karen
(16:00):
have heard someone or had someone call out to her
and turned back towards the bar. You know, she said
it's been forty years, so she can't say for certain,
but she thought that Karen did walk out with them
and then went to her own car. So that's something
that you know, we thought was something new, that was
something we need to look at.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Yeah, you know, this information is intriguing because, on I
believe it was April twenty first of nineteen eighty three,
one witness claimed to have information about Karen both before
and after the hulhup contest, which does sound familiar, and
that man's name was David. The week Karen went missing,
(16:36):
David had reported to the police that he arrived at
PM Bentley's around roughly eight thirty or nine pm on
April fifteenth, and that Karen had caught his eye roughly
around nine thirty PM. Unfortunately, David had died several years ago,
so we can't interview him or speak with him now.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
That's true, But what we do have is a written
statement that he provided back in nineteen eighty three, and
we've decided that we're going to release that statement for
the first time here in this podcast. Here is David's
actual written police statement from December of nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 8 (17:10):
On April fifteenth, nineteen eighty three, I went to PM
Bentley's Bar in Carpentersville around eight thirty or nine pm.
While at the bar, I saw Karen Sheepers across from me.
I raised a glass towards her in gesture to buy
her a drink. She smiled and given nod as if
she said yes. Before I could buy her a drink,
a husky guy came up to her, so I backed away.
(17:31):
The time was around nine thirty PM. I left the
bar around twelve fifty am to get some fresh air.
Before I left, there were people going buy me to
their cars, so I glanced up for only a moment.
Then around one oh five am, I was standing by
my brother's van and I heard two people arguing and
swearing at each other. I could hear the girl calling
him a bastard a few times, then the guy kept
(17:53):
calling her an asshole or some name. Other people were
around listening to it as well, but kind of joking
about it. After a few minutes, they seemed to disappear
or get into a car. When I got in the van,
I drove to the area where the two people were
I saw a shadow of a guy and a girl
in a light colored car like a Ford or Buick.
There was a dark red car next to them with
(18:15):
blue speckles. The other car was a dark colored car.
After going by them, I went home. I did see
a couple of Harley Choppers and a couple of other
bikes parked in the front of PM Bentley's. The guy
I saw with Karen was about sixty two to six four,
about two forty to two hundred and fifty pounds. He
had curly hair to about his shoulders, and he was
(18:36):
wearing a black leather or suede motorcycle jacket, and he
had a full beard.
Speaker 4 (18:43):
So, in conjunction with that statement, David had told police
that he believed the woman he saw that was involved
in that argument in the parking lot was indeed Karen.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
And beyond just the written statement that he gave him December,
he gave two police interviews where he actually talked with
the police. One of those was on April twenty first,
which was just a couple days after Karen disappeared, and
one was this December interview about seven months later. He
described the mail in his two interviews in two different ways,
and this is something I think that's kind of important
to highlight. I know, in my experience and I'm sure
(19:13):
in yours witnesses wat him change some details when time passes.
So for David, these interviews are about eight months apart.
Seven eight months apart. It doesn't shock me that some
of the details have changed, but there are some stark
differences that I think we both wanted to talk about.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Yeah, So on April twenty first, David described the man
that he saw with a woman he believed to be
Karen in the following way. He described the individual to
be a white male about five eight to five nine,
with a bushy beard, big arms, shoulder length hair, and
in his late twenties or maybe early thirties. He also
estimated that he saw Karen with the biker at the
(19:49):
bar around eleven thirty and not nine to thirty PM.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Yeah, that kind of changed a little bit. And then
in December he provided a written statement, and in that
statement he talks about the guy being a white male
who's about sixty two to sixty four, about two hundred
and forty to two hundred and fifty pounds, with curly
hair that hung down to his shoulders in a full beard.
This time, he estimated that the time was around nine
thirty or nine to forty five, and like you said,
(20:13):
on the twenty first, he thought it was maybe eleven thirty,
so that kind of changed.
Speaker 4 (20:16):
Yeah, well, the timeframe of nine thirty or nine forty
five PM versus eleven thirty PM isn't really that important.
We do know that Karen was inside the bar until
at least twelve thirty am on the night of the sixteenth,
so it is entirely possible that David saw her and
raised his glass to her at any time between nine
pm and twelve thirty am.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
That's right. What's more important is this guy that reportedly
went up to talk to Karen, And I would note
that David does describe the hair and the beard both
pretty much the same in the two statements, even though
some of those other descriptors change over time. He kind
of makes the guy sound bigger and more menacing as
time passes, which could be you know a number of things.
I don't know. Maybe he's just thinking about it now
(21:00):
in December and you know, building up in his mind.
Who knows, but five nine to six four is kind
of a big difference.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Right, Yeah, sure is. He described the guy was wearing
a leather or a Swede type motorcycle club jacket in
both of his interviews too, but there's no mention of
any patches or rockers or any specific markings for the
jacket or anything like that. David had used this term
motorcycle jack in one of his interviews, so he clearly
(21:29):
was linking the guy as some kind of you know,
outwardly appearing type, you know, biker. I had spent you know,
a number of years in the Elgin Gang unit. I
know that we still have some motorcycle gangs that operate
in the area in the nineteen eighties, we'd been told
by former investigators there were certainly active motorcycle gangs and
groups in both Carpentersville and Elgin. Unfortunately, David didn't have
(21:55):
any information about patches or colors or rockers that could
help us narrow down the guy he allegedly had seen.
After talking to Frank, we think we know why David
might not have been able to provide more details about
this person. He claimed was talking to Karen, what.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
About like motorcycles, Like, was there a group of guys
would come here that were like motorcycle.
Speaker 6 (22:15):
Type we had. We had motorcycle people come in here,
but we wouldn't allow them to bring their.
Speaker 4 (22:21):
Colors, okay, so like they'd be like a like a
motorcycle gang that they wouldn't have any of their like
any other cuts or anything like that.
Speaker 6 (22:29):
Okay. And we had a couple of couple We had
one guy that owned the motorcycle shop and mc henry
or somewhere. Yeah, and he was a pretty big company
and he knew all the motorcycles and all the bikers okay,
and he was on our side.
Speaker 3 (22:46):
Yeah, so he kept all out of them, Okay.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Quiet, do you remember were they like outlaws or like
any specific gangs?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Me?
Speaker 4 (22:53):
And I know, you didn't let the colors or the
cuts come in or anything like that, So it makes sense.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Keep it.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Yeah, So the bar had tried to curb issues with
motorcycle gangs, you know, and their activity within the bar.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Yeah, And I mean it makes sense. It's definitely kind
of clarifies to us that there were certainly motorcycle gangs
and motorcycle guys that would hang around this area. You know,
you would make sense to put a policy in place that, hey,
we don't want these guys wearing colors in the bars.
We don't want to have problems.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Yeah, and for anybody that's listening, if anyone recalls anything
similar to this argument at PM Bentley's that we you know,
would or could clear up this altercation that David said
he witnessed, please call us. Maybe it has nothing to
do with Karen, or maybe it has everything to do
with her. We just don't know. And if you have
that information, we'd like to find out.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Or if somebody remembers talking to Karen, buying her a drink,
or any other contact they might have had with her,
please contact us. We're still working to speak with as
many people who were present at the bar that night
as possible.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Yeah, So again, this is a huge part of this
podcast and why we were giving out this type of information.
You know, we are trying to really spark a memory
for people so that new witnesses can come forward.
Speaker 6 (24:05):
You know.
Speaker 4 (24:05):
One thing that we both found important in David's statements
is that David later said that when he left and
he estimated the time around twelve to fifty am on
the night of the sixteenth, or I should say the morning,
he left alone and saw several men in bikes outside
of the bar in the far west lot, and some
Harley Davidson's parked directly in front of the bar. That
(24:26):
coworker Daisy. She also described people hanging around as she
left the bar with several people, including potentially Karen, and
the timeframe is pretty close to David's. I mean, we
were talking about people estimating a time they left the
bar and all saying it was kind of around one am.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yeah, David reported that about one oh five am, and
again we're estimating, I mean, people are drinking at a bar.
But around one oh five am he saw a woman
who he thought was Karen talking to the same guy
from the bar. Outside the bar. He heard someone call
somebody a bass and while the group of bikers around
him started laughing, you know, David kind of left and
(25:05):
saw these people talking.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
In one of his interviews, David also described that he
saw the woman being placed into a car, which he
described as a light colored medium sized vehicle, park next
to a newer, dark in color Compact Sedan with Wisconsin plates.
He also said that he saw a man and a
woman in a light colored Ford or a Buick park
(25:28):
next to a kind of distinctive car that was dark
red with blue metallics speckles on it. And that would
be if we went back to the written statement, right.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Yep, his written statement.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
So his written statement includes some of that detail, but
it doesn't include some of the things he later said
in his fertile interviews. You know, we've read all of
the interviews and police reports and overall they include that
level of detail.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Yeah again, Mad, it kind of highlights the difference that
we see in these older cases, and it, you know, honestly,
can be a little bit frustrating. The witnesses in these
old cases would often provide some sort of written statement
like we provided with David. Then they would give these long,
in depth interviews to the police, where the police would
just either take notes or just write a report about
what the person said. Oftentimes, those statements that the detectives
(26:17):
wrote down had way more detailed than the written statement did.
And it's clear that the written statements were not as
in depth as the interview was. But we don't have
any audio, we don't have any video. You know, today
we would sit down body your cameras, we would record everybody,
and we would just have the full transcript. But we
just don't have that in this type of case.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Yeah, another thing that was common back then was a
polygraph or also known as a lie detector test. David
did take a polygraph as part of this investigation. Now
these things aren't admissible in court, but you know, polygraphs
and an individual's reaction to being asked to take one
can be useful for investigators. For instance, if a person
is completely reluctant to take one, I think police at
(27:02):
that time, especially you know, honed in a little more
than the nod on a person due to their lack
or level of cooperation. But if it seems like if
someone had passed a polygraph, maybe they moved on, you know,
which could also be problematic, Maybe they missed something.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, I mean I think that sometimes it looks like
you would look at a suspect they'd pass a polygraph
or partially pass a polygraph, and police would just kind
of say, Okay, we're going to move forward. That obviously,
like you said, can be problematic. Right. We've heard from
a number of law enforcement sources that worked in the
eighties and used polygraphs, and I think we both kind
would agree. What they kind of tell you is you know,
(27:40):
you want a really accomplished, practiced examiner, And they said
that the examiner is almost as important as the test
itself because they could really drive those results, which is
probably why some of these things aren't in missible in court.
Speaker 4 (27:52):
Yeah, like you know, I had said, David did take
one in December of nineteen eighty three. And here's the
actual polygraph questions and the answers from the original case
file that we had found.
Speaker 9 (28:05):
On April sixteenth, nineteen eighty three, did you talk to
Karen Sheepers in the parking lot of PM Bentley's No.
Did you harm Karen in any way?
Speaker 6 (28:18):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:19):
Do you know what happened to Karen?
Speaker 3 (28:23):
No?
Speaker 9 (28:24):
On April sixteenth, nineteen eighty three, did you see Karen
arguing with an unknown white male?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
No?
Speaker 3 (28:34):
No, Matt, I'm not sure why he said he did
not see Karen arguing in the parking lot when his
statement says that that's what he saw. Maybe the question
was too broad, or he wasn't sure it was actually
Karen who he saw. But the examiner's findings for all
the questions were as follows.
Speaker 9 (28:52):
It is the opinion of the examiner based on the
subject's polygraph records. That he is suffering from some emotion defect,
which precludes the examiner from submitting a definite report at
this time.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Okay, so the examiner noted in the record that it
contained quote erratic and unexplained emotional disturbances. I think it's
basically just a fancy way to say David's test was
just it was inconclusive.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Yeah, I'd love to know more about that, right, Well,
at least we know that there were certainly bikers who
are around that night, And to be honest, David inserting
himself into this investigation might be very important too. Maybe
he did see Karen or talk to her, or maybe
he actually did try to buy her a drink.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Yeah, it's obviously hard to note at this point. I mean,
he claims that he made eye contact with her and
wanted to buy her a drink. One thing we do
know from his interviews and for our interviews with different coworkers,
is that David claimed that Karen went off with this
burly kind of biker guy to a booth and sat
and drank with this guy. Now, all the coworkers we've
talked to said they were very very confident that Karen
(30:00):
was with them. The entire night. Their group didn't mingle
with other people. They had someone waiting on their tables.
They could have gone up to the bar, but the
way Frank described the bar, it would have been kind
of a hike from where they were sitting to go
all the way around to the bar to do that.
And they had a girl who was waiting their table,
So their account, you know, the woman might just not
be Karen. That might be the reality.
Speaker 4 (30:21):
Yeah, Well, we do have other witnesses who recall seeing
motorcycles parked in the lot and things like that. You know,
we had talked to some local law enforcement from around
that time period, and they described the bar as kind
of a you know, a blue collar and a working
class bar. There were bikers in the area at that time,
and it would not have been uncommon for motorcycles to
(30:42):
be at that bar too. Some of Karen's coworkers echoed
that description when we had talked to them, So it's
hard to rule out the fact that David could have
made contact with Karen or also some biker, whether it
was inside or outside the bar.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, and those same law enforcement people we talked to
from that time, they said the bar had a bit
of a reputation with bikers, and that goes along with
David's statement. It also goes along with some things that
you know, Frank was told telling us about having bikers there,
making sure they didn't wear their colors in the bar,
stuff like that. But I think for a biker to
have taken Karen and then her car to disappear, there's
just a lot of moving parts to that that maybe
(31:18):
make it a little bit less likely.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
Yes, And again, Karen's car is a huge part of
this case. Either someone would have had to have hidden
it or forced their way into a car, you know,
be allowed into the car by Karen, or if she
left with some biker in some other car around a bike,
someone would have had to have come back to the
bar and then taken care of the car.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Yeah, and we did talk to Frank about towing, and
they said they didn't really have a situation where like
today you would have a posted sign that says, you know,
ABC Towing will tow this car to this location if
it stays here overnight. He basically said that if something
like that were to happen, they would just call the
owners of the bar and they would say, hey, there's
(31:59):
a car parked in the law, like, do you know
whose car it is? Kind of deal. Yeah, So we
don't have any record of our car being towed out
of there. And like we talked about before, it was
a manual transmission, so someone would have to be able
to drive that. I mean, that's pretty common back in
eighty three, but it's still just something to remember exactly.
Speaker 4 (32:15):
Then you would have had to have disposed of that
car somewhere, and it has never been found for over
forty one years.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
Yeah, I mean it is possible. I suppose. We can't
say one way or the other, and we can't really
determine if this biker that David says he saw actually
talked to Karen or if it was some other person.
It's certainly possible that something happened at the bar and
that this biker or something else at the bar could
have been what caused Karen to disappear. So we have
to keep that option kind of on the table now.
(32:43):
But you know, we got to kind of keep moving
forward and looking at other things too.
Speaker 4 (32:47):
That's right. And there was another person that came up
regarding PM Bentleys a few days after Karen's disappearance that
we also need to talk about a woman that we're
going to call. Jessica told police shortly after Karen's disappearance
that she had information that might be related to Karen's case.
(33:09):
Jessica stated that she was at PM Bentley's on April
twenty fourth, which was the Saturday after Karen had been
reported missing.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
Yes, it's exactly one week later.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Yeah, the following weekend, yep. I mean, obviously Karen's disappearance
was kind of a big thing in that area at
that time, especially at the bar. Anyways, Jessica said that
she was at the bar with her sister and that
they met these two men inside the bar. The group
was understandably talking about Karen's disappearance and everything associated with it,
(33:41):
and Jessica's sister said that, quote unquote, some weirdo probably
abducted her.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
Jessica then said that she and her sister left the
bar around two forty five am to go to another
local place for coffee with these two guys that they
just met. I would note that the bar closed it too,
so I don't know if that discrepancy makes sense or not,
but just to throw it in there, Jessica claimed that
her sister rode with one of the men, and Jessica
was going to drive the car that they drove to
(34:06):
go meet these guys for coffee, and that this friend
of the guy walked out with her and he walked
over by this beije Van that he was driving. That's
what things got a little bit weird, at least according
to Jessica. Jessica claimed that she and this guy were
staying in the parking lot for like ten or fifteen minutes,
just kind of talking, and the guy said this.
Speaker 9 (34:26):
You know, d weirdo.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
Your sister was talking about, Well, you're looking at him.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
The man also reportedly had told Jessica that he was
going to rape her. Jessica did not know if this
guy was involved in Kieran's disappearance, but she had contacted
the local authorities to tell them about him. Anyways, you know,
I think this is a good reminder that even if
this guy was not involved, somebody said something in any
of these cases, and even in cases that we investigate,
(34:53):
you know, in real time. Today, we want people to
know that the police are never going to judge you
for bringing us information. Other people contact us and tell
us information then think, oh, I don't want to bother them.
It's probably nothing. No detail is too small, no tip,
you know, tip is too small. We want to make
sure that we investigate anything that comes through.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Yeah, any information that people give us, we're going to
run it down. If it turns out to be nothing,
I mean, that's fine, that's what we're here for. That's
our job.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
Jessica was able to provide a full name, you know,
for the man that she had met that night, and
police did talk to him. He had lived in the
area and police determine that he had no criminal history
from what we had read. He claimed that while he
did have a conversation with Jessica, she was completely fabricating
and making up any of the things that she had
claimed he had said. But you know, we should also
(35:39):
note here Andrew that you know, this guy did not
match really in any way the description of the biker
that David had described in his interviews.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, that's that's true. So our point with telling these
different statements and these different stories is that we want
to make sure any of our listeners contact us if
they remember anything similar. If you have a story similar
to jess story, please contact us. And if you have
any issues that you had or remember any issues at
the bar with bikers, or remember some sort of argument
(36:08):
this night when Karen went missing. Please contact us. You
can do it anonymously. You can give us your information
whatever you prefer. But like Matt said before, what you
know is more important than who you are to us.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
Yeah, you know, we've talked a lot about the bar, David,
and this other weird interaction in the parking lot with
the van. We need to really talk about the employees too.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Here.
Speaker 4 (36:27):
We know one employee recalled seeing Karen in the bathroom
and talking to her about the TV show Dallas at
that time, and other employees remembered seeing her roughly around
one am on the night at the sixteenth. But there
are several employees who we've not been able to track
down and who were never interviewed that we would like
to speak to.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
Yeah, that's true, Matt. We know a girl, like I
said before, was serving their table and we've never been
able to talk to her. Police never interviewed her in
nineteen eighty three, so we feel like she would be
someone to be very important for us to talk to.
We're trying to track her down. We also had identified
and interviewed one more new witness, a woman who worked
at PM Bentley's but quit shortly before Karen disappeared. She
(37:07):
provided a shocking revelation that could potentially take us investigation
a totally new direction. Next time on Somebody Knows Something,
we continue our investigation into the last place that Karen
Sheepers was seen alive. PM Bentley's in Carpentersville, Illinois. During
(37:31):
the initial investigation in nineteen eighty three, PM Bentley's owner
provided the police with a list of employees who worked
that night that Karen disappeared. He also told police that
just two months before Karen vanished, a female employee reported
that a man followed her home from the bar after
she got off work. That employee was never interviewed, and
when we recently tracked her down, she told us that
(37:51):
someone did a whole lot more and just followed her home.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Or anyone you know has information about this case or
any other cold case in Elgin, please contact the Elgin
Police Department Cold Case email at cold Case tips at
elginil dot gov or the Cold Case tip line at
eight four seven two eight nine cold You can also
review cold case information on the Elgin Police Department's Transparency
(38:22):
Hub by going to elginil dot gov and navigating to
the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every cold case, homicide,
and missing person's case is listed with photographs and information
about each case.
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