March 31, 2025 • 27 mins
Detectives Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian from the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Unit search the Fox River with the Illinois-based search and recovery team Chaos Divers and make a discovery almost 42 years in the making.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police
and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details
may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons.
While the events in cases discussed are based on real investigations,
some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes.
(00:25):
Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents.
All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness.
Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast,
but such discussions are not intended to and should not
(00:46):
be considered by the listener to be legal conclusions. All
persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a
court of law. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something,
a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit.
In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold
cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details
and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You
will come along with real cold case detectives as they
(01:24):
investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice
for the victims and closure for their families. We believe
that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work
together to bring closure to cold cases because we know
that in these cases, somebody knows something.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Welcome to the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Podcast. Somebody
Knows Something. I'm Detective Andrew.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Howton and I'm Detective Matt Thartanian. This season, we have
spent the last seven episodes discussing the case of Karen Sheepers,
who disappeared along with her Canary nineteen eighty Toyota Salica
on April sixteenth of nineteen eighty three, and in this episode,
we are going to detail a massive break in this case.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
That's right, Matt, This episode is a really special one
for us, for Karen's family, and for the entire community
of Elgin and surrounding communities. I know that last episode,
our listeners came along with us as we identified the
routes that Karen Sheepers would have likely taken on April
sixteenth of nineteen eighty three if she did lead PM
Binley's Bar and had either home or to her boyfriend
Terry's house. We drove those routes under nearly identical conditions,
(02:33):
and we identified multiple bodies of water along both routes.
Because we had no record of any extensive water searches,
we felt it was important not only to use the
best equipment, but also to get a grip of expert
divers in sonar diving, recovery and extraction of vehicles, specifically
vehicles which might contain human remains, as we sought to
finally bring Karen home.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Obviously, finding a vehicle on a body of water, especially
one that might contain human remains, was a huge step,
but once a vehicle is located, it takes skilled divers
with experience to navigate currents, the visibility, and potentially dangerous
conditions to confirm, assess, and then finally remove that vehicle
from the water. We wanted to be prepared to remove
(03:16):
any vehicle we found in a manner that kept it
as intact as possible as well, so the team we
needed had to have extensive experience not only locating and
assessing a vehicle, but also removing it as well. From
the beginning, our goal has always been to find Karen,
not just her car. We even had a deputy corner
(03:36):
from the Kane County Corner's Office, Gabby Allison, out with
us for the duration of our entire search in the
event that we did locate any remains, so that we
could get the ball rolling immediately if we found anything.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
As it turns out, we found the exact team that
we needed in an Illinois based nonprofit group called Chaos Divers.
We're going to talk about them extensively in our next episode,
but before we even get in the nuts and bolts
of what happened this week, Matt, we both want to
thank them for everything they did in this case. We
can't express our thanks to them enough. Their expertise was
crucial for this investigation. To Jacob Grubbs, Lindsay Busick, and
(04:13):
Mike McFerrin, we owe you a debt we can never
repay you, so thank you, Thank you, thank you for
everything that you were able to do on this case.
You all deserve a huge amount of credit for this case,
and we would not have been able to have the
outcome we did without the professionalism, resources, experience, and the
toughness of your entire team.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Absolutely, I second that. Just a huge thank you to
you guys out there from Chaos Divers. Our entire experience
with you guys at Chaos divers, from planning to execution
to all the post action stuff has just been truly amazing.
You guys are really awesome people. I think we are
just still both in a state of shock with just
how awesome and just professional you guys are and what
you guys do well. After spending all day on the
(04:54):
river on March twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, with Chaos Divers,
we were quite honestly feeling deflated. We had literally scanned
from the Kimball Street Dam in the south to just
south of the Illinois Route seventy two in the north,
that is nearly five nautical miles of river, and to
completely scan the entire riverbed was an all day project
on the boat. During the search, we found two vehicles
(05:17):
throughout the day, and Mike McFerrin, the diver for our search,
dove them multiple times in water that was around forty
degrees with less than six inches of visibility. One vehicle
initially seemed promising with a headlamp that was similar to
Karen's car, but after multiple dives on that car, Mike
told us that it was basically a debris field and
(05:39):
with other pieces that he was able to recover, we
were able to conclusively say it was not Karen's car.
The second vehicle was also clearly not her vehicle based
on the pieces that Mike could find and the color
and the size of that second car. That car, like
the first, was also not intact.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
That was when we got lucky, or had divine intervention,
or whatever you want to call it. We headed back
to the launch site to leave, even calling our command
post to tell him we thought we were almost done
for the day and that Matt and I needed someone
to come pick us up. As we traveled south from
the I ninety bridge, Jacob, who was driving the boat,
and Lindsay, who was using the sonar equipment along with him,
both decided we needed to circle back in the same
(06:17):
area where Mike had dove on the first two cars.
They just wanted to be sure one last time that
we weren't missing anything. We had found a pipe, a
large tractor tire, and other debris that they had tagged,
so we basically went back and rechecked each item before
we left. That's when Jacob saw something else. About one
hundred and fifty to one hundred and sixty feet west
of the eastern shoreline in the Fox River. He and
(06:40):
Lindsay confirmed that it was a vehicle on its roof
and it was absolutely a smaller car, making it our
third vehicle the day. This time, we found exactly what
we've been searching for from the beginning of this investigation.
We have covered from the Kimball Street dam all the
way up to basically Route seventy two.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
We have found three cars to day two, of which
we have ruled out.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
In the third little what do I know?
Speaker 6 (07:09):
Diver is back up.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
So he's got a license place, you know, Matt. I
can't even describe what it was like when Mike broke
through the surface and held up that license plate. We
were both in the back of the boat, maybe forty
feet away, and we could see the plate upside down
in reverse. We kind of looked at each other and
I think we both knew that we thought we saw
(07:32):
an X and a P on that plate. So we
literally ran to the front of the boat. Then Mike
read the plate out loud to us and handed it
to you. I looked down at the mud covered plate
and we both visually confirmed it and that license plate
was the one that we knew by heart. X P
eight nine one nine.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
What Yeah, I think that's it. What, yes, yellow. As
soon as I saw the I thank you, So.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You have a plate.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It is x X ray p Paul eight ex Paul
car He says, it is a yellow So how I
forgot it?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Yeah, I mean there was definitely some giddiness, right. It
was like you see the plate and you're like, wait,
is I see an ex? I see a p I
see some eights and I'm like. We looked at each other,
We're like, yeah, that's that's it, right, that's the plate.
Once we got the plate to the shore, we confirmed
the plate one more time because I think we just
both both kind of knew that second, you know, double confirmation.
I mean, quite honestly, we were both still kind of
(08:50):
in a state of shock.
Speaker 6 (08:51):
I think.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Then we immediately called Susan, Karen's sister.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Matt and I had coordinated with Liz Gary Dale and
Susan prior to this die and they knew when we
were diving and it maybe potentially all week. We decided
that our plan was to call and talk to Liz
every night at the end of each day. That way,
if we called her, it would just be a pre
planned routine. Liz is ninety and has been waiting for
nearly forty two years to find out this information. We
(09:16):
didn't want to call her and have it be some
false sense of hope or something like that, so we
wanted to tell her in person when we actually found something.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
We coordinated with Susan and decided that if we recovered anything,
our plan was to call Susan and tell her so
that she could travel out with us to Sycamore and
we could all meet in person to tell Liz that
we had found her daughter's car. When we called Susan
and broke the news, I think it was a mix
of both shock and relief. As you can imagine, she
was very emotional. I can't even imagine what it must
(09:47):
have been like for her and her family, but hopefully
through this investigation we can finally give them some answers
and some closure.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah. I can't even describe what the day was like
for all of them and for us. Susan let Liz
know that we wanted to talk to her and just
filled the family on kind of the first day of
the search. We kind of tried to soft sell it
to her, I guess basically, and so we all drove
out to Sycamore. When we arrived, Susan told us that
Liz was cleaning the kitchen and doing some dishes because
(10:15):
she knew she had some guests arriving and she wanted
the house to be presentable. I just have to say
that Liz has been just amazing to us. The whole
family has been. They really make you feel like part
of the family. I mean, our last visit, Liz sent
Matt and I both home with some of her famous
Blarney stones that she makes every March for our friends
and family. There's small pieces of pound cake that she
bakes and frosts and then rolls in peanuts using a
(10:37):
handgrinder that she's had for years. Liz made these for
Karen when Karen was a kid, and made them even
before Karen was born. It's just been amazing to feel
like we're part of the family when we deal with them.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah, Liz is just an amazing strong woman. She's ninety
years old and still insists on still mowing her own
lawn and they have almost five acres of property. To
be able to find this car in human remains for
her and her family have just been really such an
honor and a privilege. For both of us looking back.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
In preparation for an episode, we were planning to go
to Karen's apartment and her childhood home, so we had
visited with Gary and Liz multiple times at the house
over the last few months. We had seen Karen's childhood bedroom,
we had looked through a dresser from her old apartment.
We'd even looked at her piano that still sits in
the piano room, alongside a number of photographs of the family,
which include a prominent photograph of Karen in the middle
(11:27):
of the wall as a baby and another above it
with her as an adult. Gary pulled up some chairs
and we sat down at the same kitchen table that
we'd been discussing Karen in the case for the last
few months with the family over our last few visits.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
When we told Liz and Gary that we believed we
had located Karen's vehicle in the Fox River and confirmed
that the vehicle was a yellow car with her license plate,
the family was, as you would imagine, understandably very emotional.
Gary told us that when Susan called, Liz told him
that she knew exactly why we were coming out to
see her. We had found her. It was an emotional
(12:01):
experience for all of us, and I know I speak
for Andrew as well in saying that being able to
give the family this news was really why we do
these cases. That's what it is all about. We want
to provide answers and closure. But finding Karen's car was
just step one of a multi step process. We weren't
done yet in a case like this. Obviously we finally
(12:22):
had the car, but the question had remained, was this
one hundred percent Karen's car and where Karen's remains inside
the vehicle? Still, given the time of day, the lighting conditions,
and the fact that our amazing diver Mike had made
multiple dives in the river in frigid and fairly windy conditions,
we made the decision to regroup for day two to
search further in hopes of finally finding Karen and bringing
(12:44):
her home. So on March twenty fifth, we mobilize a
number of resources to do just that. Obviously, Andrew and
I were on scene to continue this search along with
Chaos Divers, but we want to mention a number of
other groups that assisted us with this recovery.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
That's right, we utilized Elgind Police, department's Drone team, Evidence
Response Team, Major Investigations Unit, the Patrol Division, Technical Investigations Division,
basically all the resources that our department has to work
on this case. We wanted to secure the extraction site
and prepare to collect evidence on this case. We had
decided from the get go that this would be treated
(13:20):
like any other crime scene. That meant drone video photographs,
evidence collection, three D scans of the car, basically everything
that we would do on any active investigation, including a homicide,
as if it had happened today.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Yeah, Andrew, Basically, we wanted to treat this car like
a crime scene until proven otherwise. Now that we had
the car, it was time to slow everything down and
do this very methodically and do it the right way,
kind of just take a pause. So we coordinated our
removal plan for the vehicle and potential remains with the
Cane County Coroner's Office, the Elgin Fire Department, and Redmond's Towing.
(13:55):
By midday on March twenty fifth, we were ready to
get the car out and take the next up on
this case. But that meant a lot of coordination and
a lot more dives.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
All right, good morning everyone, and thank you for being here.
I'm Ann Lally, Chief of Police of the Elgin, Illinois
Police Department. I am joined by the lead Colt case detectives,
Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian, Chaos divers Jacob Grubbs, Lindy Busick,
and Mike McFerrin, Kine County Coroner Monica Silva, members of
her staff, and the Elgin Fire Department. Yesterday's search of
(14:28):
the Fox River was conducted because, as a re examination
of the case progressed, the theories of what happened to
Karen included that Karen's vehicle could potentially be in the
Fox River. With recent significant advancements in technology, Chaos divers
were contacted to assist us in conducting a more thorough
search to fully explore and exhaust this theory. With the
(14:52):
use of sonar technology, Chaos divers located several sites of
interest in the Fox River that were explored forty two
pm yesterday. At a location northwest of the Slade Avenue
boat launch, a vehicle was identified. A diver then conducted
a further assessment of the vehicle and was able to
locate a license plate XP eight nine one nine, which
(15:14):
then match the license plate of Karen's yellow nineteen eighty
Toyota Selico this morning. Plans to safely remove the vehicle
from the Fox River will be formulated and executed in
conjunction with the expertise and assistance of Chaos divers, the
Elgin Fire Department, and the Kine County Coroner's Office. The
scene is considered a crime scene and axis will be
(15:36):
limited to only police and fire personnel. Once the vehicle
has been safely removed from the Fox River, a determination
will be made if any human remains are in the vehicle.
That determination will be made by the Kine County Coroner's Office.
We will provide this information to the public when this
information becomes available as the recovery of the vehicle is made.
(15:58):
It is important to stress that this is the beginning
of what is still considered in open and active investigation,
with many questions still to be answered. As we continue
to investigate this case, we were remained steadfast in our
resolve to provide answers and closure to Karen's family.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Mike assessed the car again, then had dive team members
from the Elgin Fire Department independently assessed the car as well.
That way, they could compare what each saw and felt independently.
Mike had been diving for a number of years and
has extensive experience with underwater recoveries. He, just like Lindsay
and Jacob, volunteers his time to help families with this
(16:39):
type of situation, and he was just a beast all around.
He dove two days in a row, did multiple dives
on each day, and was in water in the Fox
River that was forty degrees with visibility that was less
than six inches. Mike was the diver who confirmed Karen's
car for the first time in almost forty two years
and removed the license in those conditions so that we
(17:02):
could make a visual confirmation of her car. This was
how Mike described Karen's car to us after one of
the extensive dives and assessments that he did on March
twenty fifth.
Speaker 6 (17:12):
On this specific vehicle, it feels like all the windows
are intact, and except for one it's in it's either
the back or the back hatch, and I can still
see yellow on the vehicle. All four wheels are still intact,
(17:33):
all four rules are still there. There's a few rough
spots on the vehicle that where that's rushed through, but
all in all, the vehicles in pretty good shade for
being down there for forty something years.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Once we had double confirmation that all the windows were intact,
with the exception of the rear hatch which was facing downstream,
both Matt and I were pretty excited. We felt like
that meant the vehicle was very intact, so at least
at that point we had a really good chance of
finding human remains inside of Karen's vehicle if they were there.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Mike dove once again and was able to secure an
air bladder inside the rear window of the vehicle. So
think of like a giant balloon going inside of an
object and then you blow it up a little bit.
That helped to kind of steal everything inside. Once Jacob
and Lindsay inflated it, the bladder covered and sealed that
broken window. In preparation for our extraction, the vehicle was
(18:26):
just over one hundred and fifty feet west of the shoreline,
and so Redmond's Towing had to secure cables using a
crane to the vehicle and slowly slide it along the
riverbed to pull it out.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Jacob and Lindsay circled with their sonar to check the
path we planned to drag the car through. Obviously, we
didn't want to drag the car into a piece of
concrete or a tree, or this pipe or tire or
other debris that we had found in our initial search
of the area. Once we assessed the path and found
that it was clear, we started making preparations to bring
Karen's car above the surface for the first time in
(19:01):
forty two years. Here's Jacob talking about the extraction plan.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
So currently they're gonna go down there with the straps
that Redmond's Towing provided for us to go around all
four tires. Therefore, when we get ready to pull them,
those are secure on a tire. The diver can then
go back down readjust the hooks to lift it straight
(19:34):
out of the water. Okay, but for right now, we're
not gonna marry all four points together. The two front
tires or the two back tires, whichever one day decide,
is what's gonna go on the toe hook to drag
it out. We are gonna have yep, we are gonna.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Have a.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Bag inside inflated to make sure the content state in
the front or the back whichever windows open. Once we
get it over there, then we'll lift.
Speaker 6 (20:04):
It straight out of the water on the land.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
All right, perfect.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Mike took yet another dive into the water and secured
the four tires along with the Elgin Fire Department. Finally
we were ready to start the slow process of bringing
Karen's car to the surface. Andrew coordinated over the radio
with our command posts to let them know that we
were finally ready to go.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
David twenty five or wrapped.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Just make sure they know once they get it close
to the wall here, the divers are gonna have to
go back in and detach and then reattached so they
can lift.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
It with the crane.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
We spent several tense minutes slowly and methodically sliding the
car toward the shoreline. Then, at two thirty nine pm
on March twenty fifth of twenty five, Karen's canary yellow
nineteen eighty Toyota Celica rope the money surface of the
Fox River. It was the first time that the car
was above the water in forty one years eleven months.
(21:11):
In nine days, with.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
The car up and out of the water, our evidence
team and drone team went to work in coordination with
the King County Corner's Office the Elgin Police Department conducted
a thorough assessment of the vehicle before having Redmans lift
the car tarpet and transport it to the Corner's office
for processing. I have to say that during the process
of pulling Karen's car out of the Fox River, several
(21:39):
of those windows, which were initially intact, broke, which made
us concern that we may have potentially lost some human
remains or other items from inside the car. Mike, being
just the absolute best human being that he is, agreed
to go back to his vehicle, put on all his
dive equipment, and go back in the water again. He
searched the area where we drugged the car and pulled
the car out, just to make sure we didn't miss anything.
(22:00):
I just can't say enough about his help and Chaos
Diver's help on this case.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Andrew and I picked up copies of dental records for
Karen that we had at the station that were from
the original case file and headed to the Caine County
Coroner's office to determine if human remains could be located
within the car. We were elated when, within just a
few hours of removing Karen's car, Caine County corner, Doctor
(22:26):
Monica Silva advised us that forensic pathologist doctor Hillary McElligott
confirmed that there were human remains inside Karen's car. So
for the second day in a row, we called Susan.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
We followed the same procedure as the day before and
went out to visit Liz and Gary again. We sat
at the kitchen table, with Listening next to me and
told her we believed that, after forty two years, we
had finally found her missing daughter, Karen.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
You know, I have a hard time explaining just what
this experience was like for both of us. I know
it is something that I will never forget, and I'm
sure that it was something that the family will also
never forget. It is something that I have never experienced
in my career I may never experience again. But even
if we only get to do this one time, it
was totally worth it.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah, I agree, just to be able to tell the family, Liz,
especially that after all her hard work, the letters she wrote,
the people she talked to, the interviews she gave, all
the things the family did up to this point, those
things all mattered. Their efforts helped us bring Karen home.
They helped keep her case alive. They helped put the
limelight on her case, and they helped us finally find Karen.
(23:45):
The last step, at least for this part of the investigation,
was confirming one hundred percent that the remains we recovered
belonged to Karen Sheeper's.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Throughout the day on March twenty six I coordinated with
the evidence Response team from the Elgin Police Department and
the Kane County Coroner's Office for an extensive search of
Karen's vehicle, while Andrew continued coordinating with the family, uploading
videos and pictures for the search and documenting our last
couple days of search efforts. We were able to confirm
(24:17):
the VIN number for Karen's car, and late in the
afternoon on March twenty sixth, we were able to recover
the metal portion of Karen's Sycamore High School class of
nineteen seventy seven tassel, which we believed prior to the
search would have been hanging from her rearview mirror. We
also recovered a sapphire birthstone ring that Karen wore nearly
(24:39):
every day of her adult life, along with other personal
effects and clothing. Then, a little after six pm on
March twenty sixth of twenty twenty five, we got the
news that we had been looking for and that Karen's
family had been seeking for almost forty two years. Forensic
odontologist doctor David Wilhe compared dentell records from Karen's dentist
(25:03):
to the human remains that we recovered from inside the
Toyota Selica. They were a perfect match.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
The last thing we did for this search and recovery
was make the drive out to Sycamore one more time.
On March twenty sixth. Liz greeted us like she has
every other time we've come, and invited us to sit
down at the family kitchen table. I think that the
words we spoke with her there and the family we
will keep between us and the family, but being able
to tell them this news was something that neither of
(25:31):
us will ever forget. I was reminded of Karen's friend Denise,
when we sat down with her early on in the investigation,
and she told us one thing that stuck in my
mind in Matt's mind, she said to us, she's ready
to come home next time here on. Somebody knows something.
(25:56):
We're going to be talking to. Chaos Divers the group
who was instrumental on locating and successfully recovering Karen's vehicle
intact along with her remains and personal belongings. While we
finally brought Karen home, we still have some work to
do and we still have some answers that we want
to try to provide for the family. We plan to
finish this season with a few more episodes to take
our listeners with us as we go through the final
(26:18):
steps in this case and circle back with the family
and friends who have waited over four decades to find
Karen and to hear about what this has meant to them.
We plan to post a few more episodes as we
go through and finalize Karen's case, and then we plan
to take a brief break as we review our case
file to select another case for season two. If somebody
knows something.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
If you or anyone you know has information about this
case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact
the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Email at cold Case
tips at elginil dot gov or the cold Case tip
line at eight four seven two eight nine cold. You
can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police
(27:02):
Department's Transparency hub by going to elginil dot gov and
navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every
cold case, homicide, and missing person's case is listed, with
photographs and information about each case.
This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police
and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details
may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons.
While the events in cases discussed are based on real investigations,
some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes.
(00:25):
Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents.
All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness.
Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast,
but such discussions are not intended to and should not
(00:46):
be considered by the listener to be legal conclusions. All
persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a
court of law. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is Chief Anna Lally. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something,
a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit.
In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold
cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details
and by encouraging anyone with information to come forward. You
will come along with real cold case detectives as they
(01:24):
investigate active cold cases in real time and seek justice
for the victims and closure for their families. We believe
that the Elgin Police Department and our community can work
together to bring closure to cold cases because we know
that in these cases, somebody knows something.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Welcome to the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Podcast. Somebody
Knows Something. I'm Detective Andrew.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Howton and I'm Detective Matt Thartanian. This season, we have
spent the last seven episodes discussing the case of Karen Sheepers,
who disappeared along with her Canary nineteen eighty Toyota Salica
on April sixteenth of nineteen eighty three, and in this episode,
we are going to detail a massive break in this case.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
That's right, Matt, This episode is a really special one
for us, for Karen's family, and for the entire community
of Elgin and surrounding communities. I know that last episode,
our listeners came along with us as we identified the
routes that Karen Sheepers would have likely taken on April
sixteenth of nineteen eighty three if she did lead PM
Binley's Bar and had either home or to her boyfriend
Terry's house. We drove those routes under nearly identical conditions,
(02:33):
and we identified multiple bodies of water along both routes.
Because we had no record of any extensive water searches,
we felt it was important not only to use the
best equipment, but also to get a grip of expert
divers in sonar diving, recovery and extraction of vehicles, specifically
vehicles which might contain human remains, as we sought to
finally bring Karen home.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Obviously, finding a vehicle on a body of water, especially
one that might contain human remains, was a huge step,
but once a vehicle is located, it takes skilled divers
with experience to navigate currents, the visibility, and potentially dangerous
conditions to confirm, assess, and then finally remove that vehicle
from the water. We wanted to be prepared to remove
(03:16):
any vehicle we found in a manner that kept it
as intact as possible as well, so the team we
needed had to have extensive experience not only locating and
assessing a vehicle, but also removing it as well. From
the beginning, our goal has always been to find Karen,
not just her car. We even had a deputy corner
(03:36):
from the Kane County Corner's Office, Gabby Allison, out with
us for the duration of our entire search in the
event that we did locate any remains, so that we
could get the ball rolling immediately if we found anything.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
As it turns out, we found the exact team that
we needed in an Illinois based nonprofit group called Chaos Divers.
We're going to talk about them extensively in our next episode,
but before we even get in the nuts and bolts
of what happened this week, Matt, we both want to
thank them for everything they did in this case. We
can't express our thanks to them enough. Their expertise was
crucial for this investigation. To Jacob Grubbs, Lindsay Busick, and
(04:13):
Mike McFerrin, we owe you a debt we can never
repay you, so thank you, Thank you, thank you for
everything that you were able to do on this case.
You all deserve a huge amount of credit for this case,
and we would not have been able to have the
outcome we did without the professionalism, resources, experience, and the
toughness of your entire team.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Absolutely, I second that. Just a huge thank you to
you guys out there from Chaos Divers. Our entire experience
with you guys at Chaos divers, from planning to execution
to all the post action stuff has just been truly amazing.
You guys are really awesome people. I think we are
just still both in a state of shock with just
how awesome and just professional you guys are and what
you guys do well. After spending all day on the
(04:54):
river on March twenty fourth, twenty twenty five, with Chaos Divers,
we were quite honestly feeling deflated. We had literally scanned
from the Kimball Street Dam in the south to just
south of the Illinois Route seventy two in the north,
that is nearly five nautical miles of river, and to
completely scan the entire riverbed was an all day project
on the boat. During the search, we found two vehicles
(05:17):
throughout the day, and Mike McFerrin, the diver for our search,
dove them multiple times in water that was around forty
degrees with less than six inches of visibility. One vehicle
initially seemed promising with a headlamp that was similar to
Karen's car, but after multiple dives on that car, Mike
told us that it was basically a debris field and
(05:39):
with other pieces that he was able to recover, we
were able to conclusively say it was not Karen's car.
The second vehicle was also clearly not her vehicle based
on the pieces that Mike could find and the color
and the size of that second car. That car, like
the first, was also not intact.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
That was when we got lucky, or had divine intervention,
or whatever you want to call it. We headed back
to the launch site to leave, even calling our command
post to tell him we thought we were almost done
for the day and that Matt and I needed someone
to come pick us up. As we traveled south from
the I ninety bridge, Jacob, who was driving the boat,
and Lindsay, who was using the sonar equipment along with him,
both decided we needed to circle back in the same
(06:17):
area where Mike had dove on the first two cars.
They just wanted to be sure one last time that
we weren't missing anything. We had found a pipe, a
large tractor tire, and other debris that they had tagged,
so we basically went back and rechecked each item before
we left. That's when Jacob saw something else. About one
hundred and fifty to one hundred and sixty feet west
of the eastern shoreline in the Fox River. He and
(06:40):
Lindsay confirmed that it was a vehicle on its roof
and it was absolutely a smaller car, making it our
third vehicle the day. This time, we found exactly what
we've been searching for from the beginning of this investigation.
We have covered from the Kimball Street dam all the
way up to basically Route seventy two.
Speaker 5 (06:57):
We have found three cars to day two, of which
we have ruled out.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
In the third little what do I know?
Speaker 6 (07:09):
Diver is back up.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
So he's got a license place, you know, Matt. I
can't even describe what it was like when Mike broke
through the surface and held up that license plate. We
were both in the back of the boat, maybe forty
feet away, and we could see the plate upside down
in reverse. We kind of looked at each other and
I think we both knew that we thought we saw
(07:32):
an X and a P on that plate. So we
literally ran to the front of the boat. Then Mike
read the plate out loud to us and handed it
to you. I looked down at the mud covered plate
and we both visually confirmed it and that license plate
was the one that we knew by heart. X P
eight nine one nine.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
What Yeah, I think that's it. What, yes, yellow. As
soon as I saw the I thank you, So.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
You have a plate.
Speaker 3 (08:14):
It is x X ray p Paul eight ex Paul
car He says, it is a yellow So how I
forgot it?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Yeah, I mean there was definitely some giddiness, right. It
was like you see the plate and you're like, wait,
is I see an ex? I see a p I
see some eights and I'm like. We looked at each other,
We're like, yeah, that's that's it, right, that's the plate.
Once we got the plate to the shore, we confirmed
the plate one more time because I think we just
both both kind of knew that second, you know, double confirmation.
I mean, quite honestly, we were both still kind of
(08:50):
in a state of shock.
Speaker 6 (08:51):
I think.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
Then we immediately called Susan, Karen's sister.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Matt and I had coordinated with Liz Gary Dale and
Susan prior to this die and they knew when we
were diving and it maybe potentially all week. We decided
that our plan was to call and talk to Liz
every night at the end of each day. That way,
if we called her, it would just be a pre
planned routine. Liz is ninety and has been waiting for
nearly forty two years to find out this information. We
(09:16):
didn't want to call her and have it be some
false sense of hope or something like that, so we
wanted to tell her in person when we actually found something.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
We coordinated with Susan and decided that if we recovered anything,
our plan was to call Susan and tell her so
that she could travel out with us to Sycamore and
we could all meet in person to tell Liz that
we had found her daughter's car. When we called Susan
and broke the news, I think it was a mix
of both shock and relief. As you can imagine, she
was very emotional. I can't even imagine what it must
(09:47):
have been like for her and her family, but hopefully
through this investigation we can finally give them some answers
and some closure.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah. I can't even describe what the day was like
for all of them and for us. Susan let Liz
know that we wanted to talk to her and just
filled the family on kind of the first day of
the search. We kind of tried to soft sell it
to her, I guess basically, and so we all drove
out to Sycamore. When we arrived, Susan told us that
Liz was cleaning the kitchen and doing some dishes because
(10:15):
she knew she had some guests arriving and she wanted
the house to be presentable. I just have to say
that Liz has been just amazing to us. The whole
family has been. They really make you feel like part
of the family. I mean, our last visit, Liz sent
Matt and I both home with some of her famous
Blarney stones that she makes every March for our friends
and family. There's small pieces of pound cake that she
bakes and frosts and then rolls in peanuts using a
(10:37):
handgrinder that she's had for years. Liz made these for
Karen when Karen was a kid, and made them even
before Karen was born. It's just been amazing to feel
like we're part of the family when we deal with them.
Speaker 4 (10:49):
Yeah, Liz is just an amazing strong woman. She's ninety
years old and still insists on still mowing her own
lawn and they have almost five acres of property. To
be able to find this car in human remains for
her and her family have just been really such an
honor and a privilege. For both of us looking back.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
In preparation for an episode, we were planning to go
to Karen's apartment and her childhood home, so we had
visited with Gary and Liz multiple times at the house
over the last few months. We had seen Karen's childhood bedroom,
we had looked through a dresser from her old apartment.
We'd even looked at her piano that still sits in
the piano room, alongside a number of photographs of the family,
which include a prominent photograph of Karen in the middle
(11:27):
of the wall as a baby and another above it
with her as an adult. Gary pulled up some chairs
and we sat down at the same kitchen table that
we'd been discussing Karen in the case for the last
few months with the family over our last few visits.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
When we told Liz and Gary that we believed we
had located Karen's vehicle in the Fox River and confirmed
that the vehicle was a yellow car with her license plate,
the family was, as you would imagine, understandably very emotional.
Gary told us that when Susan called, Liz told him
that she knew exactly why we were coming out to
see her. We had found her. It was an emotional
(12:01):
experience for all of us, and I know I speak
for Andrew as well in saying that being able to
give the family this news was really why we do
these cases. That's what it is all about. We want
to provide answers and closure. But finding Karen's car was
just step one of a multi step process. We weren't
done yet in a case like this. Obviously we finally
(12:22):
had the car, but the question had remained, was this
one hundred percent Karen's car and where Karen's remains inside
the vehicle? Still, given the time of day, the lighting conditions,
and the fact that our amazing diver Mike had made
multiple dives in the river in frigid and fairly windy conditions,
we made the decision to regroup for day two to
search further in hopes of finally finding Karen and bringing
(12:44):
her home. So on March twenty fifth, we mobilize a
number of resources to do just that. Obviously, Andrew and
I were on scene to continue this search along with
Chaos Divers, but we want to mention a number of
other groups that assisted us with this recovery.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
That's right, we utilized Elgind Police, department's Drone team, Evidence
Response Team, Major Investigations Unit, the Patrol Division, Technical Investigations Division,
basically all the resources that our department has to work
on this case. We wanted to secure the extraction site
and prepare to collect evidence on this case. We had
decided from the get go that this would be treated
(13:20):
like any other crime scene. That meant drone video photographs,
evidence collection, three D scans of the car, basically everything
that we would do on any active investigation, including a homicide,
as if it had happened today.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Yeah, Andrew, Basically, we wanted to treat this car like
a crime scene until proven otherwise. Now that we had
the car, it was time to slow everything down and
do this very methodically and do it the right way,
kind of just take a pause. So we coordinated our
removal plan for the vehicle and potential remains with the
Cane County Coroner's Office, the Elgin Fire Department, and Redmond's Towing.
(13:55):
By midday on March twenty fifth, we were ready to
get the car out and take the next up on
this case. But that meant a lot of coordination and
a lot more dives.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
All right, good morning everyone, and thank you for being here.
I'm Ann Lally, Chief of Police of the Elgin, Illinois
Police Department. I am joined by the lead Colt case detectives,
Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian, Chaos divers Jacob Grubbs, Lindy Busick,
and Mike McFerrin, Kine County Coroner Monica Silva, members of
her staff, and the Elgin Fire Department. Yesterday's search of
(14:28):
the Fox River was conducted because, as a re examination
of the case progressed, the theories of what happened to
Karen included that Karen's vehicle could potentially be in the
Fox River. With recent significant advancements in technology, Chaos divers
were contacted to assist us in conducting a more thorough
search to fully explore and exhaust this theory. With the
(14:52):
use of sonar technology, Chaos divers located several sites of
interest in the Fox River that were explored forty two
pm yesterday. At a location northwest of the Slade Avenue
boat launch, a vehicle was identified. A diver then conducted
a further assessment of the vehicle and was able to
locate a license plate XP eight nine one nine, which
(15:14):
then match the license plate of Karen's yellow nineteen eighty
Toyota Selico this morning. Plans to safely remove the vehicle
from the Fox River will be formulated and executed in
conjunction with the expertise and assistance of Chaos divers, the
Elgin Fire Department, and the Kine County Coroner's Office. The
scene is considered a crime scene and axis will be
(15:36):
limited to only police and fire personnel. Once the vehicle
has been safely removed from the Fox River, a determination
will be made if any human remains are in the vehicle.
That determination will be made by the Kine County Coroner's Office.
We will provide this information to the public when this
information becomes available as the recovery of the vehicle is made.
(15:58):
It is important to stress that this is the beginning
of what is still considered in open and active investigation,
with many questions still to be answered. As we continue
to investigate this case, we were remained steadfast in our
resolve to provide answers and closure to Karen's family.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
Mike assessed the car again, then had dive team members
from the Elgin Fire Department independently assessed the car as well.
That way, they could compare what each saw and felt independently.
Mike had been diving for a number of years and
has extensive experience with underwater recoveries. He, just like Lindsay
and Jacob, volunteers his time to help families with this
(16:39):
type of situation, and he was just a beast all around.
He dove two days in a row, did multiple dives
on each day, and was in water in the Fox
River that was forty degrees with visibility that was less
than six inches. Mike was the diver who confirmed Karen's
car for the first time in almost forty two years
and removed the license in those conditions so that we
(17:02):
could make a visual confirmation of her car. This was
how Mike described Karen's car to us after one of
the extensive dives and assessments that he did on March
twenty fifth.
Speaker 6 (17:12):
On this specific vehicle, it feels like all the windows
are intact, and except for one it's in it's either
the back or the back hatch, and I can still
see yellow on the vehicle. All four wheels are still intact,
(17:33):
all four rules are still there. There's a few rough
spots on the vehicle that where that's rushed through, but
all in all, the vehicles in pretty good shade for
being down there for forty something years.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Once we had double confirmation that all the windows were intact,
with the exception of the rear hatch which was facing downstream,
both Matt and I were pretty excited. We felt like
that meant the vehicle was very intact, so at least
at that point we had a really good chance of
finding human remains inside of Karen's vehicle if they were there.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
Mike dove once again and was able to secure an
air bladder inside the rear window of the vehicle. So
think of like a giant balloon going inside of an
object and then you blow it up a little bit.
That helped to kind of steal everything inside. Once Jacob
and Lindsay inflated it, the bladder covered and sealed that
broken window. In preparation for our extraction, the vehicle was
(18:26):
just over one hundred and fifty feet west of the shoreline,
and so Redmond's Towing had to secure cables using a
crane to the vehicle and slowly slide it along the
riverbed to pull it out.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Jacob and Lindsay circled with their sonar to check the
path we planned to drag the car through. Obviously, we
didn't want to drag the car into a piece of
concrete or a tree, or this pipe or tire or
other debris that we had found in our initial search
of the area. Once we assessed the path and found
that it was clear, we started making preparations to bring
Karen's car above the surface for the first time in
(19:01):
forty two years. Here's Jacob talking about the extraction plan.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
So currently they're gonna go down there with the straps
that Redmond's Towing provided for us to go around all
four tires. Therefore, when we get ready to pull them,
those are secure on a tire. The diver can then
go back down readjust the hooks to lift it straight
(19:34):
out of the water. Okay, but for right now, we're
not gonna marry all four points together. The two front
tires or the two back tires, whichever one day decide,
is what's gonna go on the toe hook to drag
it out. We are gonna have yep, we are gonna.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Have a.
Speaker 5 (19:54):
Bag inside inflated to make sure the content state in
the front or the back whichever windows open. Once we
get it over there, then we'll lift.
Speaker 6 (20:04):
It straight out of the water on the land.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
All right, perfect.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Mike took yet another dive into the water and secured
the four tires along with the Elgin Fire Department. Finally
we were ready to start the slow process of bringing
Karen's car to the surface. Andrew coordinated over the radio
with our command posts to let them know that we
were finally ready to go.
Speaker 5 (20:32):
David twenty five or wrapped.
Speaker 6 (20:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Just make sure they know once they get it close
to the wall here, the divers are gonna have to
go back in and detach and then reattached so they
can lift.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
It with the crane.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
We spent several tense minutes slowly and methodically sliding the
car toward the shoreline. Then, at two thirty nine pm
on March twenty fifth of twenty five, Karen's canary yellow
nineteen eighty Toyota Celica rope the money surface of the
Fox River. It was the first time that the car
was above the water in forty one years eleven months.
(21:11):
In nine days, with.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
The car up and out of the water, our evidence
team and drone team went to work in coordination with
the King County Corner's Office the Elgin Police Department conducted
a thorough assessment of the vehicle before having Redmans lift
the car tarpet and transport it to the Corner's office
for processing. I have to say that during the process
of pulling Karen's car out of the Fox River, several
(21:39):
of those windows, which were initially intact, broke, which made
us concern that we may have potentially lost some human
remains or other items from inside the car. Mike, being
just the absolute best human being that he is, agreed
to go back to his vehicle, put on all his
dive equipment, and go back in the water again. He
searched the area where we drugged the car and pulled
the car out, just to make sure we didn't miss anything.
(22:00):
I just can't say enough about his help and Chaos
Diver's help on this case.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Andrew and I picked up copies of dental records for
Karen that we had at the station that were from
the original case file and headed to the Caine County
Coroner's office to determine if human remains could be located
within the car. We were elated when, within just a
few hours of removing Karen's car, Caine County corner, Doctor
(22:26):
Monica Silva advised us that forensic pathologist doctor Hillary McElligott
confirmed that there were human remains inside Karen's car. So
for the second day in a row, we called Susan.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
We followed the same procedure as the day before and
went out to visit Liz and Gary again. We sat
at the kitchen table, with Listening next to me and
told her we believed that, after forty two years, we
had finally found her missing daughter, Karen.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
You know, I have a hard time explaining just what
this experience was like for both of us. I know
it is something that I will never forget, and I'm
sure that it was something that the family will also
never forget. It is something that I have never experienced
in my career I may never experience again. But even
if we only get to do this one time, it
was totally worth it.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Yeah, I agree, just to be able to tell the family, Liz,
especially that after all her hard work, the letters she wrote,
the people she talked to, the interviews she gave, all
the things the family did up to this point, those
things all mattered. Their efforts helped us bring Karen home.
They helped keep her case alive. They helped put the
limelight on her case, and they helped us finally find Karen.
(23:45):
The last step, at least for this part of the investigation,
was confirming one hundred percent that the remains we recovered
belonged to Karen Sheeper's.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Throughout the day on March twenty six I coordinated with
the evidence Response team from the Elgin Police Department and
the Kane County Coroner's Office for an extensive search of
Karen's vehicle, while Andrew continued coordinating with the family, uploading
videos and pictures for the search and documenting our last
couple days of search efforts. We were able to confirm
(24:17):
the VIN number for Karen's car, and late in the
afternoon on March twenty sixth, we were able to recover
the metal portion of Karen's Sycamore High School class of
nineteen seventy seven tassel, which we believed prior to the
search would have been hanging from her rearview mirror. We
also recovered a sapphire birthstone ring that Karen wore nearly
(24:39):
every day of her adult life, along with other personal
effects and clothing. Then, a little after six pm on
March twenty sixth of twenty twenty five, we got the
news that we had been looking for and that Karen's
family had been seeking for almost forty two years. Forensic
odontologist doctor David Wilhe compared dentell records from Karen's dentist
(25:03):
to the human remains that we recovered from inside the
Toyota Selica. They were a perfect match.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
The last thing we did for this search and recovery
was make the drive out to Sycamore one more time.
On March twenty sixth. Liz greeted us like she has
every other time we've come, and invited us to sit
down at the family kitchen table. I think that the
words we spoke with her there and the family we
will keep between us and the family, but being able
to tell them this news was something that neither of
(25:31):
us will ever forget. I was reminded of Karen's friend Denise,
when we sat down with her early on in the investigation,
and she told us one thing that stuck in my
mind in Matt's mind, she said to us, she's ready
to come home next time here on. Somebody knows something.
(25:56):
We're going to be talking to. Chaos Divers the group
who was instrumental on locating and successfully recovering Karen's vehicle
intact along with her remains and personal belongings. While we
finally brought Karen home, we still have some work to
do and we still have some answers that we want
to try to provide for the family. We plan to
finish this season with a few more episodes to take
our listeners with us as we go through the final
(26:18):
steps in this case and circle back with the family
and friends who have waited over four decades to find
Karen and to hear about what this has meant to them.
We plan to post a few more episodes as we
go through and finalize Karen's case, and then we plan
to take a brief break as we review our case
file to select another case for season two. If somebody
knows something.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
If you or anyone you know has information about this
case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact
the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Email at cold Case
tips at elginil dot gov or the cold Case tip
line at eight four seven two eight nine cold. You
can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police
(27:02):
Department's Transparency hub by going to elginil dot gov and
navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every
cold case, homicide, and missing person's case is listed, with
photographs and information about each case.
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