April 14, 2025 • 32 mins
Detectives Andrew Houghton and Matt Vartanian from the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Unit speak with Jacob Grubbs and Lindsay Bussick from Chaos Divers, the group which was instrumental in bringing Karen Schepers home, to talk about their organization, their experience in search and recovery, and their amazing work on Karen’s case.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police
and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details
may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons.
While the events in cases discussed are based on real investigations,
some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes.
(00:25):
Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents.
All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness.
Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast,
but such discussions are not intended to and should not
(00:46):
be considered by the listener to be legal conclusions. All
persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a
court of law. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is Chief Anna Lalley. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something,
a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit.
In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold
cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details
and by encouraging anyone with information.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
To come forward.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
You will come along with real cold case detectives as
they investigate active cold cases in real time and seek
justice for the victims. And closure for their families. We
believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can
work together to bring closure to cold cases because we
know that in these cases, somebody knows something.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Hello and welcome to Somebody Knows something. A Elgin Police
Department Cold Case Podcast. My name is Detective Andrew Howton, and.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
I'm Detective Matt Vartanian.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Last episode, we chronicled our search of the Fox River,
where we located and recovered both Karen's nineteen eighty Toyota
Selica and her remains. It was an unbelievable experience and
we're still processing the fact that we no longer have
to search for Karen. We know where she is and
she's coming home to her family after nearly forty two years.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Our investigation led us through multiple bodies of water, including
the Fox River, But as we have said in previous episodes,
neither Andrew or myself have ever had any experience or
expertise and sonar searches, diving or recovering vehicles from water,
So it is truly the expertise that Chaos Divers provided
that has helped us to bring Karen home.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
For this episode, we sat down with Jacob Grubbs and
Lindsay Busick from Chaos Divers, the Illinois based so in
oar search and recovery team that helped us bring Karen home.
Matt and I feel like over the last few months
coordinating with them, and certainly over the last few weeks
everything that's happened, we've really gotten to know them, and
we really got to know Mike McFerrin as well, who
was instrumental in confirming Karen's car with his dives and
(02:56):
also helping us secure it and remove it.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
Yeah, we wanted to use this episode to hear directly
from Jacob and Lindsay about their experience with Karen's case.
We also wanted to talk to them about their background
and what comes next for Chaos Divers as they continue
their mission to help other families bring loved ones home.
So with that, let's welcome Jacob and Lindsay. Hi, guys,
how are you doing well?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
How are you doing good?
Speaker 5 (03:20):
So we just want to thank you guys again for
everything that you do, and we just want to give this,
you know, this time and take the opportunity to be
able to just dig a little bit deeper into who
you guys are and what you're about what motivates you.
So if you guys don't mind sharing, would you be
able to give us both of your backgrounds and how
did you know transition into Chaos Divers.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, my name is Jacob Grubbs. I was a coal
miner for twelve years. With the declining of coal mining,
I decided I want to pursue a interest in scuba
diving and see if I could start recovering and helping
clean out the river systems. From there, I found out
(04:03):
that I was able to utilize our skills into what
it is now on Chaos Divers. It is a search
and recovery dive group dive team that pretty much started
with Teamwaters out of Saint Louis. Team Waters was able
(04:23):
to show us the ways and show us how to
use cutting egg cutting edge technology with the garment and
Hummingbird life scope I'm sorry, the Hummingbird sonars and Garment
life scope abilities to be able to see what's underwater
(04:45):
and we were able to utilize that and then help
bring home loss of ones. So from there I started
pursuing that and to date now that we have brought
home lost on one since we've started.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, So Karen was your twentieth human remains recovery?
Speaker 6 (05:05):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Sir?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Okay and lindsay, how about you? What were you doing
before Chaos Divers.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
So prior to meeting Jacob, I was actually the executive
director for a chamber of commerce down here locally. I
was volunteering for a search and rescue ground searching team
down here in southern Illinois. And that's actually how I
met Jacob was through that we had a person missing
(05:36):
who was missing along with his vehicle. One of his
friends knew Jacob and got me in contact with him,
said hey, you know this guy does can search water
and stuff with sonar and diving. So I contacted Jacob
that evening and we got everything situated. I remember one
(05:59):
of the first questions that I asked Jacob was, you know,
how much are you going to charge us because we
do this for free? And Jacob had said, we don't
charge anything at all. And then I, you know, he
came out and helped with the search and that's when
I kind of started learning about like utilizing YouTube and
(06:26):
Facebook and social media in this aspect because he had
already had established Chaos Diverse. And then from there I
started we stayed in contact, helped set up you know,
his website, things like that, and then unfortunately I lost
my job due to COVID back in July twenty twenty one,
(06:47):
and looked at Jacob and said, you know, I'm all
yours if you want me to help you. And here
we are four years later, and it's been an absolutely
remarkable journey so far.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
Awesome. So in the last four years, how many vehicles
would you say that you guys have located or recovered.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Located? I would say, and this is just a rough estimate,
and I would say about a little bit over a
thousand vehicles, and we were able to recover what we used, say,
probably around two hundred or so.
Speaker 6 (07:25):
I know we've worked I actually in doing Karen's case,
just pulled it up the other night and went through
every case. We've worked one hundred and eleven cases in
the last four years.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
How many different states have you guys been to?
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Do you know? We have been to what twenty ish?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
About twenty states?
Speaker 6 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, give or take.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
If you were to cut the United States in half,
almost every bit of the East coast or east from
the half of the United States, except for the upper
northern parts like Maryland and Maine and Vermont. We have
not been up in that corner, but everything else basically
(08:12):
we have had a search in those waters.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Okay, so you're probably talking like Ohio River, Mississippi River,
Illinois River, lots of major waterways plus smaller rivers like
the Fox River.
Speaker 6 (08:25):
Yes, we we've covered the Mississippi River, Missouri River. We've
actually had several recovered recoveries in the Ohio River, both
vehicles and lost loved ones. There's a lot of you know,
tributaries that go off of those rivers that we've been in,
(08:46):
and then there's also been a lot of you know,
little ponds and lakes and we've pretty much been able
to you know, no pun intended kind of dip our
toes into everything.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Yeah, and then we we can on a touch base
on this a little bit. But what specifically drove you
guys to this line of work, Like, what's the passion
that drives you guys to do this type of work.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
I think for me it's been this. We've kind of
been afforded this opportunity to provide answers to a family
when they've not gotten them anywhere else. So being able
to do that for somebody. And I told Jacob after
our very first recovery, it was in October of twenty
(09:34):
twenty one, a gentleman in Ohio in the Ohio River,
I said, if this is all we ever do, if
this is the only person we ever find, this is
worth it. So it's just being able to do something
for someone. Basically, you know, you just do the right
(09:55):
thing because it's the right thing to do. We've been
Jacob and I have been pretty fortunate in the sense
that we've never had a missing loved one who was
close to us since doing this job. My husband, however,
has his cousin has gone missing. He's been missing for
a few years now. Jacob and I have actually gone
(10:16):
down and kind of gotten out of our area of
expertise in that, you know, we searched the water focused
on vehicles where Sean is just missing from a small
town in Mississippi, So kind of gotten out and you know,
kind of pounded the pavement and just talked to everybody
we can talk to anytime we're down in Mississippi. So
(10:37):
to see someone close to us go through what these
families go through, it definitely kind of drives our mission
home a little more.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
I can only imagine. I know for us, we had
talked a lot about the Fox River in the last
couple of weeks. But I know, lindsay, when we first
met and we started to coordating this, we were planning
to search way more area than just the river, right,
Can you kind of walk us through that process?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (11:06):
So, I think there was kind of this mutual agreeance
between between you guys and us before we had really
even spoken too much, that obviously the Fox River needed
to be searched just because of, you know, the different routes.
But we had I want to say, approximately close to
(11:26):
thirty locations that we wanted to search. We all knew
you guys had shared your maps with us, and then
that also entailed the different routes that Karen could.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Have taken that night.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
We went even a step further in having the ability
to go through and mark every single body of water,
even ones that weren't necessarily on her route. In the
event something happened, knowing that the river was flooded, did she,
you know, have to turn around and go a completely
different way.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
We looked at everything.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
We all agreed that with the Fox River being the
biggest body of water, that we wanted to search that first,
you know, take out that biggest chunk first. And we
had even broken the Fox River up into different segments
as you know, time got closer. Okay, we knew we
wanted to search you know, from this street to this dam,
(12:20):
this dam up to this street. And thankfully, you know,
I remember coming towards the end of the day and
we had already kind of started to game plan for
you know, what tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Was going to look like.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Yeah, I think I think that's important to bring up
here because you know, we've obviously had a lot of questions,
you know, throughout the last couple of weeks of why
it took forty two years, right, and you know why
we've we've we've said this before, but we can't speak
for previous versions of law enforcement. Only what we can,
you know, account for our actions and the six months
roughly of what we've done with this case. But we
(12:58):
knew we wanted to be as thorough as potossible. And
then once we met you guys, and then you guys
came up and we thought we had like five or
six bodies of water right that we thought we were
going to search it them Lindsay You're like, we have
like thirty yeah, And I was like, right there.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I knew.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I'm like, we have the right people because they they
care right, and you guys, you're doing the right thing
for the right reasons, right, which is is what Karen's
family deserves and what Karen deserves also, you know. So
that was to me, it was a big sign of like, yeah,
we have we found the people that we need. You know,
you guys are the experts in this, and we got them.
We know who we need.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Yeah, I think I want to just note, like for
our listeners, we did identify a body of water on
Santa's Village property up at Illinois Route seventy two and
twenty five. We had met with that company and that
pond had been drained in twenty nineteen, so we were
kind of taking that off of our list. But just
so people understand, we had looked at our two routes
and multiple bodies of water along those routes, and then
(13:55):
in conjunction with what you guys had told us, we
were planning to kind of spread out from there over
probably a five or ten mile radius into all these
other bodies of water. We had other sections of the
river you know, both above and below other dams that
we were going to look at just in the event
that she went in and went over the dam. So
it was not like we just came up and we're like,
let's just search the Fox River in this one area
(14:16):
and we're done. We had a full week plan of,
like you said, maybe twenty five to thirty bodies of
water that we were looking at.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
Yeah, and that was only on the east side of
the river. We hadn't even yeah, talked about the west
side at that point. We knew we wanted to kind
of knock everything out because everything was on the east
side of the river for Karen, you know, Pmventley's, her house,
her boyfriend's house at the time. Everything was taking us
(14:46):
and we had even talked about that going to you know,
if we search every single one of these bodies of
water and we still don't find her, then we even
talked about planning a second trip up there with you
guys and looking at the west side.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, Jacob, to kind of walk us through. I know,
we got in the water around what like nine o'clock
maybe that Monday, just kind of walk us through, you know,
from your perspective kind of how the day went and
what we did so our listeners understand.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So when we put in, like you said, it was
around nine nine thirty, you know, high hopes that when
we looked at these bodies of water when we first
started out, it's like we need Like you guys had
already said, we need to knock out the biggest portion first,
and that's going to give us more time to concentrate
(15:35):
on these smaller bodies of water. I know, the elongated
body of water down Duncan Avenue was a very very
probable spot back then. It didn't have you know, a
fence and stuff like that. But when I put in,
I was very surprised when we put it in a
slate avenue boat ramp. When I put in the water,
(15:57):
I was like, man, this actually has a little depth
to it. That's good because I've seen a lot of
rapids above I ninety driving over it and I'm like, man,
this looks shallow. I don't know if we're gonna be
able to get the boat all the way up. So
when we first started out, I started going around while
Lindsay was put in the boat in the trailer or
(16:17):
the trailer in the truck up and it was just
just to kind of get an idea. I do know
people say that there's been cars put in there from
I think it was Mike GoF who said something about
a car that was actually put in there, but he
didn't know if it was taken out. So I was
looking for that and just going around. I didn't see anything.
(16:40):
So when we loaded up and took off for the
for the day to search, you know, just meticulously going
through there, there's a lot of there's a lot of debris,
there's some pipes in there, there's a lot of questionable
items that are that are not vehicles, but they're like
(17:01):
what are they? So we spent a lot of time
doing that and just kind of investigating, like we do,
go in every direction, making sure that they want't vehicles.
The first vehicle that we found, I honestly it was
right up against that pump station. I could have sworn
(17:21):
that was gonna be Karen's vehicle. It looked small, it
looked a little sportier, and then when Mike McFerrin actually
pulled I think he pulled a headlight out first. That
headlight was sort of almost identical to the headlight that
(17:42):
would be in Karen's car. So right there, I'm like,
I got cold shields and I'm like, oh, man, like
this is very potential. And you said the same thing.
I was like, dude, you have to you have to
go back down on stop of the mic. I said,
you have to go back down and get me something else.
And then when he pulled the I think it was
(18:03):
a license plate holder up, yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
There was nothing attached to it. We're like, okay, let's
keep going here.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
And then he ended up. I said, Mike, one more time, buddy,
and he was a beast. And he came up with
a plastic gas cap and I'm not for sure if
it was Mad or if it was Andrew, who said
the gas cap was actually square. Yeah, so and with
a key with a key lot for it. So I'm like,
(18:33):
it's it's not the car. We're done, Like, it's not
the car. In this car, I don't think in my
mind it will come out in one piece because the
way that Mike described it, we've had that a lot
to where the car is so deteriorated and so dilapidated
that it will not come out in one piece. So
to remove that would need a piece of big machinery
(18:54):
to actually pull it out, and it's I just don't
know if it would be able to.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Yeah, I know, we said that basically it was. It
wasn't intact like, there wasn't windows or door like. It
wasn't like you're gonna just it wasn't a car. Basically,
it was piece. It was the frame of a car
with pieces of attached to it. He kind of described
like he grabbed that license plase, I just ripped right
off the frame of the car.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah. So those cars are in my eyes, I feel
like those cars are now a part of the fish habitat.
They've done their damage. They've already done their damage to
the to the environment. It just they just need to
stay there. So the second car we were able to find,
we actually turned back around and I wanted to stay
(19:40):
in that general area due to the depth. I said,
let's just keep going around because we did see some
questionable things and we found another vehicle. Uh, and it
was the same way, but he was able to tell
and determine that it was actually a super dark color.
So I'm like, all right, well let's continue to go.
We traveled all the way up to almost East Dundee.
(20:05):
I think we got to the turn, there was a
one one corner that I was really interested where the
road actually.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Ends yet Williams Place.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I think, yes, Williams Place. So at Williams Place, I
was like, I've got to get up there at least.
So in a lot of our incidence is there are
a lot of our missions we have two foot and
then it goes to ten foot, two foot to ten
foot and then sometimes even twenty foot holes. But in
this case, that river is just solid two foot or
(20:38):
even sometimes even a foot, so it's it's got a
solid base on the on the ground with with that current.
So therefore, when we got to Williams Place, they said,
we're turning around. It's too shallow, and we turned around,
and from there I was I was literally done for
the day and travel back. Due to the fact that
(21:02):
it was so shallow, it took us a little bit
of a little bit to go, but I was able
to follow my track. So I pushed your gas a
little bit because everybody was ready. It's been about five
or six hours, well you say five or six hours.
More than that. It's been a long day on the
on the river. Everybody was tired. So I was like,
all right, let's get let's get home. So as soon
(21:24):
as I was getting ready to to doctor boats so
Lindsey can get the trailer down, I said, you know what,
I want to check this one more time. We all
decided we wanted to check it one more time, and
I threw the through the sonar down and we seen
a wall. We seen something that was different and it
(21:44):
wasn't supposed to be there, and the fact that I
couldn't see it. We went around and we were like,
we don't know what this is. It took us two
or three laps around this car, and finally we decided
that we were going to throw the magnet down. And
I was literally getting up, and I think it was
(22:05):
Matt that said, that's a car.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
I was like, at the same time, we're like, oh wow,
that's car. And Matt seeing it Andrew everybody.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Was like.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
And at the time, Michael, Mike McPherrin, he had already
gotten dressed and out of his dry suits. I felt
so horrible, but I'm like, you want to give the
last who role on this. He's like, yep, so we
can concentrate on other areas, because, believe it or not,
if we didn't do that and find that car. We
(22:39):
were done with the Fox River forever, Yeah, because you
had already determined that below that bridge was had been
already like drained to do all that foundation.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Work, right, yeah, cleared out or drained, you know, a
number of years ago. And you're right, like, I distinct
remember that so on oar image when we found it,
and it's like one of those things that'll just stick
in your mind, right, Like you just see it and
you're like, that is a car. It's upside down. You
can see the wheels on it, like it's just clear
as day right like where like you said, the previous
(23:14):
two or three passes there was you just couldn't see it, right,
It's just that perfect, you know, positioning over it at
the right angle whatever it is, you know, to be
able to see it. It's just incredible.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
I just remember Jacob, you pointing it out and going,
that's a tire. That's a tire, that's the window, that's
the window, it's on its top. That's a car. That's
a hundred percent of car. And we said okay, and
we circled back around and off we went.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
So Michael got dressed again, God bless him. Love that
guy death. He does everything for us and he won't
win to an eye if I asked him to do something.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
Yeah, he's a.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Very good diver. So we were able to determine it
was her car and to see when he came up
with that license plate. I was messing around with the
trolla motor and I was kind of not aware of
the license plate at the time that he was holding.
I knew we had Liven's plate, but I didn't see it.
(24:06):
You guys seen it and you were like, that's it.
I'm like, what do you mean, that's it?
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
And then to see the joy that that you guys
had of we finally saw this case was absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Yeah, like having you know, after six months of work
on the case, you're holding something tangible in your hand
that is a result of everything that just came together.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
And I'll say this once again and I'll continue to say,
we would not have been able to find Karen's car
without you guys. The credit goes to you guys, the expertise.
I know you don't call yourself professionals, but you are.
You guys are amazing people, and we would not have
been able to get that car out the way that
we got it out with with Karen. Without you guys,
(24:51):
you know, we would have lost stuff, It would have
came out a different way. Just I'm still blown away
by that. So I want to ask you, guys, how
has Karen's case impacted you guys.
Speaker 6 (25:00):
I think so Karen's case is the oldest case that
we've had the honor of solving. So for us, because
we do have another case in Iowa, Harry Milligan has
been missing for forty one years, So it kind of
gives me a renewed hope that cause there kind of
(25:21):
comes this point in time where like, are we going
to find this car? Is this car going to be
buried under silt and sediment? And so some of these
older cases Tom Long in Ohio, he's been missing since
the late nineteen sixties. It's given me kind of a
renewed hope that we can do this and we can
find these cars that have been in there for thirty, forty, fifty,
(25:43):
sixty years. So it's it's been really great to kind
of it's kind of refreshed us in a way. But
I think also one getting to meet Karen's mom, Liz,
was an absolute pleasure I think that's something I'll never
I'll never forget. But also getting to feel like we
(26:04):
kind of got to be part of your foundation as
well in this cold case unit. So to be able
to experience this with you guys, and this being your
first one, and I will tell you that that feeling
never goes away. Every every case that we saw that
feels like it's the very first one we've ever solved.
(26:25):
So but to be able to do that with you
guys and be there for your first one and there
there's this really does encompass so many emotions on so
many levels. You know. Obviously bringing Karen home was an
amazing feeling, but getting to sit down and speak with
her mom and tell her, you know, even after Karen
(26:47):
is gone, we'll get everything that was done because of Karen.
All of these people from all different walks of life
have come together because of Karen. And and again, you know,
to be able to to do this and with you guys,
and you guys having that faith in our abilities, it
(27:09):
truly has been an incredible experience.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
In my side of everything, I think with going what
Lindsay said to have everybody together as a team and
to every single day talk about what we're going to
do next, how we're going to do things, what the
chain of command is going to be, and having an
abby from the corners with us and having all of
(27:35):
that professionalism all in one has been a blessing. And
to speak with the family again is truly amazing. To
tell somebody from ninety years where her daughter has been
for the past forty forty two years. It's crazy feeling.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
So Okay, we just want to kind of wrap up
with you guys by asking how can our list sars
get involved in what you were doing? How can they
follow you, how can they donate different things like that.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
So we are Our primary platforms for our searches are
on YouTube and Facebook under Chaos Diverse. We do this
for two reasons. One, when we go on a search,
it gets that person's story out to everyone. It brings
them back to the forefront of people's minds, and that's
(28:27):
the most important part of what we do. And then
second and being that kind of content creator role, it
allows us to you know, make the money to be
able to do this. We do this at no charge
to the families and at no charge to law enforcement.
We don't accept rewards if there is a reward from families.
(28:50):
The best way is to follow us on either of
those platforms to interact with the videos. Just watching the videos.
That's the most that we can ask of anyone. The
rest of our support does come through, you know, donations
and contributions. You can always contact us on chaosdivers dot com.
(29:13):
There's a link on there, and then we also have PayPal,
cash app, Venmo, things like that, and I believe if
you are on our website and you scroll to the bottom,
those links are on there as well. But the biggest
thing that we can ask people is just you know,
just follow along and support what we do and just
(29:33):
watch the videos. And that's that's really the biggest thing
that we ask of people.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think Matt and I both we
just can't say enough about you guys. I know you
said it was a pleasure to work with us. It
was likewise, it was just a pleasure absolutely for you.
We certainly hope that other people in law enforcement hear this,
other people that have loved ones missing here this, and
that your service is something that they could potentially use.
If any one needs to get in contact with you guys,
(30:01):
they can always contact us or contact you directly. We're
happy to recommend you to anybody because we had just
such a great experience with both of you and with
Mike as well.
Speaker 6 (30:11):
No, thank you for again for everything that you guys
allowed us to do and you know, to be able
to play you know, this part and not only Karen's story,
but your journey as well, and that's something that will
forever be grateful for.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
Yeah, thank you very much, guys. We really do appreciate
your time and everything that you've done for us here.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Well, thank you. I appreciate you guys.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
All right, So, Chaos Divers, like Matt and I said,
I've been instrumental in this case. We certainly appreciate them
coming on with us for the podcast and for helping
us with everything they did. Again, please consider donating to them,
following them liking their different content as they continue their
west to bring more people home like we were able
to bring Karen home.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Next episode, our focus is going to shift back to
Kiaren's case. We plan to discuss new details about Karen
and her car, as well as some new tips that
have been coming in as our recovery of Karen and
her car has made national headlines. Now that we have
found Karen and she has come home, and now that
we have her vehicle, we can finally provide some answers
(31:22):
about what we believe happened to her on April sixteenth
of nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
If you, or anyone you know has information about this
case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact
the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Email at cold Case
tips at elginil dot gov or the cold case tip
line at eight four seven two eight nine cold. You
can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police
(31:51):
Department's Transparency Hub by going to ELGINIL dot gov and
navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every
hold case, homicide and missing person's case is listed with
photographs and information about each case.
This podcast is based on information sourced primarily from police
and media reports, but certain names and other identifying details
may have been changed or altered for privacy and security reasons.
While the events in cases discussed are based on real investigations,
some aspects may be simplified for time and for narrative purposes.
(00:25):
Voice actors have been used to read from statements or documents.
All information presented is intended solely to inform and raise awareness.
Hosts may discuss theories regarding the cases examined in this podcast,
but such discussions are not intended to and should not
(00:46):
be considered by the listener to be legal conclusions. All
persons discussed are considered innocent until proven guilty in a
court of law. Listener discretion is advised.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
This is Chief Anna Lalley. Welcome to Somebody Knows Something,
a podcast from the Elgin Police Department's Cold Case Unit.
In this podcast, we will shed new light on cold
cases in the city of Elgin by sharing untold details
and by encouraging anyone with information.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
To come forward.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
You will come along with real cold case detectives as
they investigate active cold cases in real time and seek
justice for the victims. And closure for their families. We
believe that the Elgin Police Department and our community can
work together to bring closure to cold cases because we
know that in these cases, somebody knows something.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
Hello and welcome to Somebody Knows something. A Elgin Police
Department Cold Case Podcast. My name is Detective Andrew Howton, and.
Speaker 5 (01:53):
I'm Detective Matt Vartanian.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Last episode, we chronicled our search of the Fox River,
where we located and recovered both Karen's nineteen eighty Toyota
Selica and her remains. It was an unbelievable experience and
we're still processing the fact that we no longer have
to search for Karen. We know where she is and
she's coming home to her family after nearly forty two years.
Speaker 5 (02:13):
Our investigation led us through multiple bodies of water, including
the Fox River, But as we have said in previous episodes,
neither Andrew or myself have ever had any experience or
expertise and sonar searches, diving or recovering vehicles from water,
So it is truly the expertise that Chaos Divers provided
that has helped us to bring Karen home.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
For this episode, we sat down with Jacob Grubbs and
Lindsay Busick from Chaos Divers, the Illinois based so in
oar search and recovery team that helped us bring Karen home.
Matt and I feel like over the last few months
coordinating with them, and certainly over the last few weeks
everything that's happened, we've really gotten to know them, and
we really got to know Mike McFerrin as well, who
was instrumental in confirming Karen's car with his dives and
(02:56):
also helping us secure it and remove it.
Speaker 5 (02:59):
Yeah, we wanted to use this episode to hear directly
from Jacob and Lindsay about their experience with Karen's case.
We also wanted to talk to them about their background
and what comes next for Chaos Divers as they continue
their mission to help other families bring loved ones home.
So with that, let's welcome Jacob and Lindsay. Hi, guys,
how are you doing well?
Speaker 3 (03:18):
How are you doing good?
Speaker 5 (03:20):
So we just want to thank you guys again for
everything that you do, and we just want to give this,
you know, this time and take the opportunity to be
able to just dig a little bit deeper into who
you guys are and what you're about what motivates you.
So if you guys don't mind sharing, would you be
able to give us both of your backgrounds and how
did you know transition into Chaos Divers.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, my name is Jacob Grubbs. I was a coal
miner for twelve years. With the declining of coal mining,
I decided I want to pursue a interest in scuba
diving and see if I could start recovering and helping
clean out the river systems. From there, I found out
(04:03):
that I was able to utilize our skills into what
it is now on Chaos Divers. It is a search
and recovery dive group dive team that pretty much started
with Teamwaters out of Saint Louis. Team Waters was able
(04:23):
to show us the ways and show us how to
use cutting egg cutting edge technology with the garment and
Hummingbird life scope I'm sorry, the Hummingbird sonars and Garment
life scope abilities to be able to see what's underwater
(04:45):
and we were able to utilize that and then help
bring home loss of ones. So from there I started
pursuing that and to date now that we have brought
home lost on one since we've started.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Yeah, So Karen was your twentieth human remains recovery?
Speaker 6 (05:05):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (05:07):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (05:07):
Sir?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
Okay and lindsay, how about you? What were you doing
before Chaos Divers.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
So prior to meeting Jacob, I was actually the executive
director for a chamber of commerce down here locally. I
was volunteering for a search and rescue ground searching team
down here in southern Illinois. And that's actually how I
met Jacob was through that we had a person missing
(05:36):
who was missing along with his vehicle. One of his
friends knew Jacob and got me in contact with him,
said hey, you know this guy does can search water
and stuff with sonar and diving. So I contacted Jacob
that evening and we got everything situated. I remember one
(05:59):
of the first questions that I asked Jacob was, you know,
how much are you going to charge us because we
do this for free? And Jacob had said, we don't
charge anything at all. And then I, you know, he
came out and helped with the search and that's when
I kind of started learning about like utilizing YouTube and
(06:26):
Facebook and social media in this aspect because he had
already had established Chaos Diverse. And then from there I
started we stayed in contact, helped set up you know,
his website, things like that, and then unfortunately I lost
my job due to COVID back in July twenty twenty one,
(06:47):
and looked at Jacob and said, you know, I'm all
yours if you want me to help you. And here
we are four years later, and it's been an absolutely
remarkable journey so far.
Speaker 5 (07:00):
Awesome. So in the last four years, how many vehicles
would you say that you guys have located or recovered.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Located? I would say, and this is just a rough estimate,
and I would say about a little bit over a
thousand vehicles, and we were able to recover what we used, say,
probably around two hundred or so.
Speaker 6 (07:25):
I know we've worked I actually in doing Karen's case,
just pulled it up the other night and went through
every case. We've worked one hundred and eleven cases in
the last four years.
Speaker 4 (07:36):
How many different states have you guys been to?
Speaker 6 (07:38):
Do you know? We have been to what twenty ish?
Speaker 3 (07:45):
About twenty states?
Speaker 6 (07:47):
Yeah, yeah, give or take.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
If you were to cut the United States in half,
almost every bit of the East coast or east from
the half of the United States, except for the upper
northern parts like Maryland and Maine and Vermont. We have
not been up in that corner, but everything else basically
(08:12):
we have had a search in those waters.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
Okay, so you're probably talking like Ohio River, Mississippi River,
Illinois River, lots of major waterways plus smaller rivers like
the Fox River.
Speaker 6 (08:25):
Yes, we we've covered the Mississippi River, Missouri River. We've
actually had several recovered recoveries in the Ohio River, both
vehicles and lost loved ones. There's a lot of you know,
tributaries that go off of those rivers that we've been in,
(08:46):
and then there's also been a lot of you know,
little ponds and lakes and we've pretty much been able
to you know, no pun intended kind of dip our
toes into everything.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
Yeah, and then we we can on a touch base
on this a little bit. But what specifically drove you
guys to this line of work, Like, what's the passion
that drives you guys to do this type of work.
Speaker 6 (09:11):
I think for me it's been this. We've kind of
been afforded this opportunity to provide answers to a family
when they've not gotten them anywhere else. So being able
to do that for somebody. And I told Jacob after
our very first recovery, it was in October of twenty
(09:34):
twenty one, a gentleman in Ohio in the Ohio River,
I said, if this is all we ever do, if
this is the only person we ever find, this is
worth it. So it's just being able to do something
for someone. Basically, you know, you just do the right
(09:55):
thing because it's the right thing to do. We've been
Jacob and I have been pretty fortunate in the sense
that we've never had a missing loved one who was
close to us since doing this job. My husband, however,
has his cousin has gone missing. He's been missing for
a few years now. Jacob and I have actually gone
(10:16):
down and kind of gotten out of our area of
expertise in that, you know, we searched the water focused
on vehicles where Sean is just missing from a small
town in Mississippi, So kind of gotten out and you know,
kind of pounded the pavement and just talked to everybody
we can talk to anytime we're down in Mississippi. So
(10:37):
to see someone close to us go through what these
families go through, it definitely kind of drives our mission
home a little more.
Speaker 4 (10:47):
I can only imagine. I know for us, we had
talked a lot about the Fox River in the last
couple of weeks. But I know, lindsay, when we first
met and we started to coordating this, we were planning
to search way more area than just the river, right,
Can you kind of walk us through that process?
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (11:06):
So, I think there was kind of this mutual agreeance
between between you guys and us before we had really
even spoken too much, that obviously the Fox River needed
to be searched just because of, you know, the different routes.
But we had I want to say, approximately close to
(11:26):
thirty locations that we wanted to search. We all knew
you guys had shared your maps with us, and then
that also entailed the different routes that Karen could.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Have taken that night.
Speaker 6 (11:38):
We went even a step further in having the ability
to go through and mark every single body of water,
even ones that weren't necessarily on her route. In the
event something happened, knowing that the river was flooded, did she,
you know, have to turn around and go a completely
different way.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
We looked at everything.
Speaker 6 (11:59):
We all agreed that with the Fox River being the
biggest body of water, that we wanted to search that first,
you know, take out that biggest chunk first. And we
had even broken the Fox River up into different segments
as you know, time got closer. Okay, we knew we
wanted to search you know, from this street to this dam,
(12:20):
this dam up to this street. And thankfully, you know,
I remember coming towards the end of the day and
we had already kind of started to game plan for
you know, what tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Was going to look like.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Yeah, I think I think that's important to bring up
here because you know, we've obviously had a lot of questions,
you know, throughout the last couple of weeks of why
it took forty two years, right, and you know why
we've we've we've said this before, but we can't speak
for previous versions of law enforcement. Only what we can,
you know, account for our actions and the six months
roughly of what we've done with this case. But we
(12:58):
knew we wanted to be as thorough as potossible. And
then once we met you guys, and then you guys
came up and we thought we had like five or
six bodies of water right that we thought we were
going to search it them Lindsay You're like, we have
like thirty yeah, And I was like, right there.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
I knew.
Speaker 5 (13:13):
I'm like, we have the right people because they they
care right, and you guys, you're doing the right thing
for the right reasons, right, which is is what Karen's
family deserves and what Karen deserves also, you know. So
that was to me, it was a big sign of like, yeah,
we have we found the people that we need. You know,
you guys are the experts in this, and we got them.
We know who we need.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Yeah, I think I want to just note, like for
our listeners, we did identify a body of water on
Santa's Village property up at Illinois Route seventy two and
twenty five. We had met with that company and that
pond had been drained in twenty nineteen, so we were
kind of taking that off of our list. But just
so people understand, we had looked at our two routes
and multiple bodies of water along those routes, and then
(13:55):
in conjunction with what you guys had told us, we
were planning to kind of spread out from there over
probably a five or ten mile radius into all these
other bodies of water. We had other sections of the
river you know, both above and below other dams that
we were going to look at just in the event
that she went in and went over the dam. So
it was not like we just came up and we're like,
let's just search the Fox River in this one area
(14:16):
and we're done. We had a full week plan of,
like you said, maybe twenty five to thirty bodies of
water that we were looking at.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
Yeah, and that was only on the east side of
the river. We hadn't even yeah, talked about the west
side at that point. We knew we wanted to kind
of knock everything out because everything was on the east
side of the river for Karen, you know, Pmventley's, her house,
her boyfriend's house at the time. Everything was taking us
(14:46):
and we had even talked about that going to you know,
if we search every single one of these bodies of
water and we still don't find her, then we even
talked about planning a second trip up there with you
guys and looking at the west side.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
Yeah, Jacob, to kind of walk us through. I know,
we got in the water around what like nine o'clock
maybe that Monday, just kind of walk us through, you know,
from your perspective kind of how the day went and
what we did so our listeners understand.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
So when we put in, like you said, it was
around nine nine thirty, you know, high hopes that when
we looked at these bodies of water when we first
started out, it's like we need Like you guys had
already said, we need to knock out the biggest portion first,
and that's going to give us more time to concentrate
(15:35):
on these smaller bodies of water. I know, the elongated
body of water down Duncan Avenue was a very very
probable spot back then. It didn't have you know, a
fence and stuff like that. But when I put in,
I was very surprised when we put it in a
slate avenue boat ramp. When I put in the water,
(15:57):
I was like, man, this actually has a little depth
to it. That's good because I've seen a lot of
rapids above I ninety driving over it and I'm like, man,
this looks shallow. I don't know if we're gonna be
able to get the boat all the way up. So
when we first started out, I started going around while
Lindsay was put in the boat in the trailer or
(16:17):
the trailer in the truck up and it was just
just to kind of get an idea. I do know
people say that there's been cars put in there from
I think it was Mike GoF who said something about
a car that was actually put in there, but he
didn't know if it was taken out. So I was
looking for that and just going around. I didn't see anything.
(16:40):
So when we loaded up and took off for the
for the day to search, you know, just meticulously going
through there, there's a lot of there's a lot of debris,
there's some pipes in there, there's a lot of questionable
items that are that are not vehicles, but they're like
(17:01):
what are they? So we spent a lot of time
doing that and just kind of investigating, like we do,
go in every direction, making sure that they want't vehicles.
The first vehicle that we found, I honestly it was
right up against that pump station. I could have sworn
(17:21):
that was gonna be Karen's vehicle. It looked small, it
looked a little sportier, and then when Mike McFerrin actually
pulled I think he pulled a headlight out first. That
headlight was sort of almost identical to the headlight that
(17:42):
would be in Karen's car. So right there, I'm like,
I got cold shields and I'm like, oh, man, like
this is very potential. And you said the same thing.
I was like, dude, you have to you have to
go back down on stop of the mic. I said,
you have to go back down and get me something else.
And then when he pulled the I think it was
(18:03):
a license plate holder up, yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (18:05):
There was nothing attached to it. We're like, okay, let's
keep going here.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
And then he ended up. I said, Mike, one more time, buddy,
and he was a beast. And he came up with
a plastic gas cap and I'm not for sure if
it was Mad or if it was Andrew, who said
the gas cap was actually square. Yeah, so and with
a key with a key lot for it. So I'm like,
(18:33):
it's it's not the car. We're done, Like, it's not
the car. In this car, I don't think in my
mind it will come out in one piece because the
way that Mike described it, we've had that a lot
to where the car is so deteriorated and so dilapidated
that it will not come out in one piece. So
to remove that would need a piece of big machinery
(18:54):
to actually pull it out, and it's I just don't
know if it would be able to.
Speaker 4 (19:04):
Yeah, I know, we said that basically it was. It
wasn't intact like, there wasn't windows or door like. It
wasn't like you're gonna just it wasn't a car. Basically,
it was piece. It was the frame of a car
with pieces of attached to it. He kind of described
like he grabbed that license plase, I just ripped right
off the frame of the car.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah. So those cars are in my eyes, I feel
like those cars are now a part of the fish habitat.
They've done their damage. They've already done their damage to
the to the environment. It just they just need to
stay there. So the second car we were able to find,
we actually turned back around and I wanted to stay
(19:40):
in that general area due to the depth. I said,
let's just keep going around because we did see some
questionable things and we found another vehicle. Uh, and it
was the same way, but he was able to tell
and determine that it was actually a super dark color.
So I'm like, all right, well let's continue to go.
We traveled all the way up to almost East Dundee.
(20:05):
I think we got to the turn, there was a
one one corner that I was really interested where the
road actually.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Ends yet Williams Place.
Speaker 3 (20:14):
I think, yes, Williams Place. So at Williams Place, I
was like, I've got to get up there at least.
So in a lot of our incidence is there are
a lot of our missions we have two foot and
then it goes to ten foot, two foot to ten
foot and then sometimes even twenty foot holes. But in
this case, that river is just solid two foot or
(20:38):
even sometimes even a foot, so it's it's got a
solid base on the on the ground with with that current.
So therefore, when we got to Williams Place, they said,
we're turning around. It's too shallow, and we turned around,
and from there I was I was literally done for
the day and travel back. Due to the fact that
(21:02):
it was so shallow, it took us a little bit
of a little bit to go, but I was able
to follow my track. So I pushed your gas a
little bit because everybody was ready. It's been about five
or six hours, well you say five or six hours.
More than that. It's been a long day on the
on the river. Everybody was tired. So I was like,
all right, let's get let's get home. So as soon
(21:24):
as I was getting ready to to doctor boats so
Lindsey can get the trailer down, I said, you know what,
I want to check this one more time. We all
decided we wanted to check it one more time, and
I threw the through the sonar down and we seen
a wall. We seen something that was different and it
(21:44):
wasn't supposed to be there, and the fact that I
couldn't see it. We went around and we were like,
we don't know what this is. It took us two
or three laps around this car, and finally we decided
that we were going to throw the magnet down. And
I was literally getting up, and I think it was
(22:05):
Matt that said, that's a car.
Speaker 6 (22:09):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
I was like, at the same time, we're like, oh wow,
that's car. And Matt seeing it Andrew everybody.
Speaker 4 (22:15):
Was like.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
And at the time, Michael, Mike McPherrin, he had already
gotten dressed and out of his dry suits. I felt
so horrible, but I'm like, you want to give the
last who role on this. He's like, yep, so we
can concentrate on other areas, because, believe it or not,
if we didn't do that and find that car. We
(22:39):
were done with the Fox River forever, Yeah, because you
had already determined that below that bridge was had been
already like drained to do all that foundation.
Speaker 5 (22:53):
Work, right, yeah, cleared out or drained, you know, a
number of years ago. And you're right, like, I distinct
remember that so on oar image when we found it,
and it's like one of those things that'll just stick
in your mind, right, Like you just see it and
you're like, that is a car. It's upside down. You
can see the wheels on it, like it's just clear
as day right like where like you said, the previous
(23:14):
two or three passes there was you just couldn't see it, right,
It's just that perfect, you know, positioning over it at
the right angle whatever it is, you know, to be
able to see it. It's just incredible.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
I just remember Jacob, you pointing it out and going,
that's a tire. That's a tire, that's the window, that's
the window, it's on its top. That's a car. That's
a hundred percent of car. And we said okay, and
we circled back around and off we went.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
So Michael got dressed again, God bless him. Love that
guy death. He does everything for us and he won't
win to an eye if I asked him to do something.
Speaker 6 (23:44):
Yeah, he's a.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Very good diver. So we were able to determine it
was her car and to see when he came up
with that license plate. I was messing around with the
trolla motor and I was kind of not aware of
the license plate at the time that he was holding.
I knew we had Liven's plate, but I didn't see it.
(24:06):
You guys seen it and you were like, that's it.
I'm like, what do you mean, that's it?
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
And then to see the joy that that you guys
had of we finally saw this case was absolutely beautiful.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Yeah, like having you know, after six months of work
on the case, you're holding something tangible in your hand
that is a result of everything that just came together.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
You know.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
And I'll say this once again and I'll continue to say,
we would not have been able to find Karen's car
without you guys. The credit goes to you guys, the expertise.
I know you don't call yourself professionals, but you are.
You guys are amazing people, and we would not have
been able to get that car out the way that
we got it out with with Karen. Without you guys,
(24:51):
you know, we would have lost stuff, It would have
came out a different way. Just I'm still blown away
by that. So I want to ask you, guys, how
has Karen's case impacted you guys.
Speaker 6 (25:00):
I think so Karen's case is the oldest case that
we've had the honor of solving. So for us, because
we do have another case in Iowa, Harry Milligan has
been missing for forty one years, So it kind of
gives me a renewed hope that cause there kind of
(25:21):
comes this point in time where like, are we going
to find this car? Is this car going to be
buried under silt and sediment? And so some of these
older cases Tom Long in Ohio, he's been missing since
the late nineteen sixties. It's given me kind of a
renewed hope that we can do this and we can
find these cars that have been in there for thirty, forty, fifty,
(25:43):
sixty years. So it's it's been really great to kind
of it's kind of refreshed us in a way. But
I think also one getting to meet Karen's mom, Liz,
was an absolute pleasure I think that's something I'll never
I'll never forget. But also getting to feel like we
(26:04):
kind of got to be part of your foundation as
well in this cold case unit. So to be able
to experience this with you guys, and this being your
first one, and I will tell you that that feeling
never goes away. Every every case that we saw that
feels like it's the very first one we've ever solved.
(26:25):
So but to be able to do that with you
guys and be there for your first one and there
there's this really does encompass so many emotions on so
many levels. You know. Obviously bringing Karen home was an
amazing feeling, but getting to sit down and speak with
her mom and tell her, you know, even after Karen
(26:47):
is gone, we'll get everything that was done because of Karen.
All of these people from all different walks of life
have come together because of Karen. And and again, you know,
to be able to to do this and with you guys,
and you guys having that faith in our abilities, it
(27:09):
truly has been an incredible experience.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
In my side of everything, I think with going what
Lindsay said to have everybody together as a team and
to every single day talk about what we're going to
do next, how we're going to do things, what the
chain of command is going to be, and having an
abby from the corners with us and having all of
(27:35):
that professionalism all in one has been a blessing. And
to speak with the family again is truly amazing. To
tell somebody from ninety years where her daughter has been
for the past forty forty two years. It's crazy feeling.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
So Okay, we just want to kind of wrap up
with you guys by asking how can our list sars
get involved in what you were doing? How can they
follow you, how can they donate different things like that.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
So we are Our primary platforms for our searches are
on YouTube and Facebook under Chaos Diverse. We do this
for two reasons. One, when we go on a search,
it gets that person's story out to everyone. It brings
them back to the forefront of people's minds, and that's
(28:27):
the most important part of what we do. And then
second and being that kind of content creator role, it
allows us to you know, make the money to be
able to do this. We do this at no charge
to the families and at no charge to law enforcement.
We don't accept rewards if there is a reward from families.
(28:50):
The best way is to follow us on either of
those platforms to interact with the videos. Just watching the videos.
That's the most that we can ask of anyone. The
rest of our support does come through, you know, donations
and contributions. You can always contact us on chaosdivers dot com.
(29:13):
There's a link on there, and then we also have PayPal,
cash app, Venmo, things like that, and I believe if
you are on our website and you scroll to the bottom,
those links are on there as well. But the biggest
thing that we can ask people is just you know,
just follow along and support what we do and just
(29:33):
watch the videos. And that's that's really the biggest thing
that we ask of people.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Yeah, I mean, I think Matt and I both we
just can't say enough about you guys. I know you
said it was a pleasure to work with us. It
was likewise, it was just a pleasure absolutely for you.
We certainly hope that other people in law enforcement hear this,
other people that have loved ones missing here this, and
that your service is something that they could potentially use.
If any one needs to get in contact with you guys,
(30:01):
they can always contact us or contact you directly. We're
happy to recommend you to anybody because we had just
such a great experience with both of you and with
Mike as well.
Speaker 6 (30:11):
No, thank you for again for everything that you guys
allowed us to do and you know, to be able
to play you know, this part and not only Karen's story,
but your journey as well, and that's something that will
forever be grateful for.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
Yeah, thank you very much, guys. We really do appreciate
your time and everything that you've done for us here.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Well, thank you. I appreciate you guys.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
All right, So, Chaos Divers, like Matt and I said,
I've been instrumental in this case. We certainly appreciate them
coming on with us for the podcast and for helping
us with everything they did. Again, please consider donating to them,
following them liking their different content as they continue their
west to bring more people home like we were able
to bring Karen home.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Next episode, our focus is going to shift back to
Kiaren's case. We plan to discuss new details about Karen
and her car, as well as some new tips that
have been coming in as our recovery of Karen and
her car has made national headlines. Now that we have
found Karen and she has come home, and now that
we have her vehicle, we can finally provide some answers
(31:22):
about what we believe happened to her on April sixteenth
of nineteen eighty three.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
If you, or anyone you know has information about this
case or any other cold case in Elgin, please contact
the Elgin Police Department Cold Case Email at cold Case
tips at elginil dot gov or the cold case tip
line at eight four seven two eight nine cold. You
can also review cold case information on the Elgin Police
(31:51):
Department's Transparency Hub by going to ELGINIL dot gov and
navigating to the Elgin Police Department's Transparency Hub, where every
hold case, homicide and missing person's case is listed with
photographs and information about each case.
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