October 14, 2024 • 59 mins
In this episode, we gather around the Campfire with Josh Hallmark from True Crime Blush**, and Nic and the Captain of True Crime Garage to talk about the Keyes case. Enjoy!
Special Thank you to our Patreon producers:
Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Colleen Sullivan
Rochelle Roberts
Attar Mann
Stephanie Maksimow
Katelyn James
Kathy Nation
and
Pink
Special Thank you to our Patreon producers:
Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Colleen Sullivan
Rochelle Roberts
Attar Mann
Stephanie Maksimow
Katelyn James
Kathy Nation
and
Pink
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a studio both and collaboration.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Nick, are we do we think that the captain is
gonna make it or probably just move on?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I would say, if he's not with us in the
next minute or two, yeah, let's just move on. I
did speak with him. We traded a couple of texts today,
but I spoke with him yesterday and the feeling was,
you know, it's nine o'clock where he is nine pm.
So he expressed an interest. He said, oh, yeah, I
(01:00):
would like to do that. But he did go, but
it's going to be nine o'clock. I said, well, you're
kind of lucky because nine's better than ten. He said,
he is, I might, he goes, I might be talking
to you tomorrow. So he didn't closed the door.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
But you mean you guys don't live together.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
No, no, well he's in the UK Dakota.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Oh, he's in England. So usually we are only an
hour away from one another, not not time wise, not
time zone wise, driving distance. There's a there's even a
whole county between us and Speak of the Devil. We've
been joined.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, hey, Kathin, I'm here, can you hear me? Yes? Well,
thanks for thanks for joining him From so far away.
Definitely appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Yeah, I'm glad that we're not on video because I'm
I'm like hiding in a little tiny addict.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I would love to see that.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
I bet you would. Josh.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
After our last episode with True Crime Garage and True
Crime Bullshit, we invited the Captain, Nick and Josh Hallmark
back to have another conversation about the Keys case, a
more free flowing back and forth sharing of ideas and perspectives.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, I figured, since you know, you know, Nick and
the Captain, you guys are approaching eight hundred episodes probably
over it had to be what almost five hundred cases.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So yeah, I would say we're probably roughly at about
half the number of episodes we've done, would be dedicated
to somewhere around four hundred. I would guess it is
about the number of cases we've covered.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
True Crime Garage entitled their collaborative episode eleven Skulls. So
we decided to revisit the drawings done by Keys in
his own blood. There were new things to share, and
you can find this image on our website at Somewhere
in the Pines dot com.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The one thing with the skulls I sent over the
photos two photos, a photo of the skulls that he drew,
and then also a photo of a map and with
the skull picture, I noticed after listening to your episode,
a handful of the skulls have a dot that's located
basically right below the right eye. To me, it's I've
never noticed it until actually going back and looking the
(03:22):
photos again, and didn't know if you guys had ever
seen that or anybody that ever talked about that, and
if it could be like an indicator of maybe certain genders,
whether it's maybe it's like tagging each skull. What did
you any of you guys noticed that.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Or I never had? And now I'm annoyed with myself
because it's like clear as day.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, can you see that? It's it's how many totals?
It maybe five or so.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Or at least four?
Speaker 5 (03:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah? What was he left handed or right handed?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
That's a good question, Josh, do you know?
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I'm sure I have it written down. I have like
a whole biometric thing on him, but I don't know
off the top of my head.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
And I only throw that out there because these are
kind of sloppily put together, these pictures, And how many
times when when we're putting something together with paint or
permanent marker, magic marker. Blood. Yeah, the blood that we
write with all the time. How many times have like
your the side of your hand or the or the
(04:28):
curve of your pinky smeared something on the on the picture.
So I was just looking at it from that angle.
Maybe it's just happenstance that if he were left handed,
I would it wouldn't surprise me to see that kind
of blemish on some of these pictures.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, A lot of times people actually like steady their
hand by you know, putting the finger down and then
doing that. But they are just so, like you said,
sloply drawn that it kind of stood out as more
of like a a specific point, just just really odd.
I don't know. So I'm curious to see if there's
anything that we can Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I've never noticed the dot before. That's a good observation, Josh.
And I wonder since these are separate sheets of paper,
I wonder there's probably no way to tell now, but
what order they were done in, if he did the
both of them at first, or if he did it last,
or if the messiest skull is the last one he did,
or Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, yeah, and it feels like the we are one
would have been either first or last.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
That doesn't seem like something you do in the middle
of a of a sequence here, right.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah. I also thought it was interesting. I'm not sure
if we talked about this on your show, but the
the fact that he put the we are one under
the skull instead of under the bath. And I've always
kind of assumed that if these are his victims, then
you know, he would be the Satanic symbol and he
would put we are under that image. But the fact
(06:02):
that it's under one of the skulls kind of throws
me off. And I've seen online more people saying maybe
it's potentially his family because he did have such a
large extended family, or the victims. But does that stand
out to you guys at all?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I mean, I think you know my opinion on this,
I don't. I think it was mostly just him being
an asshole, so I don't know how much like thought
he put into it. It's also like he could be rushed.
He's obviously bleeding enough to do this masterpiece, and you know,
(06:41):
trying to hide what he's doing from guards, So I like,
I'm not willing to write it off. But I also
I feel like kind of like maybe he wrote it
all or drew it all and then was like, oh,
I want to add this flourish that was just the
one that was in front of him.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Well, I think Josh is right too. That's something we
should remind ourselves of. We don't know if if he
completed the whatever he set out to do with this.
We don't know if he was interrupted and didn't complete it,
or you know, stopped because he was interrupted, or we
really have nothing but a whole lot of guessing to
(07:23):
do here. And then when he leaves something like this behind.
That's why I was a little surprised to hear when
we were talking before that like that he would be
annoyed or bothered by us talking dissecting and analyzing him
today because I see something like this, and this to
me looks like a cry for that, like a like
(07:45):
he's doing it out of desperation. He's hoping to somehow
have people to study.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
Him and analyze him, maybe out of desperation or maybe
out of boredom. I mean, you're in a cell for
twenty four hours a day, so it again, with a
lot of these killers, it's one of those things where
it's like this could mean everything or this could mean nothing.
(08:13):
But I also when you talked about the pentagram drawing
as possibly being the symbol of him, and I'd have
to dive more into his interviews. But like with BTK,
he talks about the the addiction or obsession to kill,
(08:35):
as I believe he calls it X factor, the X factor,
and so some of these killers have this. They almost
separate themselves from the urge or from the thing, the entity.
(08:56):
They almost create an entity of what is driving them
to kill. So I wonder if it's the representation of
himself or maybe a representation of the desire the addiction
to kill.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
We're only guessing that that is meant to represent him.
It's not, obviously, we don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
It's like mister Brooks or Dexter, the Dark Passenger or
the you know, mister Brooks. Kevin Costner's talking, you know,
they show scenes where he's talking to the driving force
that's that's urging him and driving him to kill. And yeah,
that's that's a good point there, Captain. It's BTK had
(09:44):
factor X. But the the other thing to kind of
draw another parallel to BTK with the We Are One
Zodiac BTK and and there's there's no short list of it,
but there are many of the serial killers that believe
(10:04):
that their victims become their possession, that their slaves in
the afterlife, their servants in the afterlife, and BTK certainly
did that, and Zodiac at least claimed that in some
of his communications.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
Well, and that's why Dahmer would eat some of his
victims so they would be with him forever. We are One.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's interesting that you mentioned, well, Zodiac are One, because
there's the block letter that we introduced on your show
where he's basically talking about six victims that he murdered
in great detail over ten pages. What was told to us,
the image or the writings were in full block lettering.
(10:48):
It was a very unique document. No space, is no punctuation.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Here's Special Agent Ted Halla on June third, twenty twenty
four explaining the characteristics of the letter. Joshua is talking
about that there was.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
One letter and then there was also another.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Yeah, so my understanding is there's a letter that he
had written a family and it reads like a goodbye letter, okay,
and then they found this ten page document. It's very unique.
It's written in all caps, no punctuation, no paragraphs, so
and in it he's giving a first first hand account
of victims as he's killing them, extremely graphic, one of
(11:27):
the most disserving things I've ever read my whole career.
And there's six victims that are described, and it looks
like during the last description he's interrupted, so he hasn't finished.
But that's all we have. And we know from our
interviews with him that the first page he talks about
(11:51):
a couple that he's killed, and we believe that's the
Washington couple. Then some of the other ones are known
victims that we know about, matchup the description with what
we know. And then there's a female at the end
that's an unknown victim. That one we don't know who
she is.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Is that the one with the relation to.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
The men, the rich grandmother?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, and it was mentioned about, uh, the vehicle that
she was driving as well.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
There is a mention about a vehicle I don't know
of the re refer to the document. If there's anything,
there's no real details about it, at least for investigative least,
but there's a vehicle involved with that one.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, and these were all confiscated by the doc and anchorage.
Speaker 6 (12:30):
Yep, Doc Grebus. They My understanding was it was just
a random search of a cell like they do with
prisoners at times, and they found this stuff.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
And are there still uh in evidence up there or
so FBI's got possession of them and.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
A lot of it's been sent to the FBI museum
out there in DC right now. So my understanding, there's
a display on keys out there, and I think the
the skull drawings that he did are out there part
of the display. They sent this letter out, although it's
not displayed like for reading because it's so graphic, but
I think it's mentioned or referred to or in some capacity.
(13:07):
I haven't seen the display yet out.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
There, and I was doing an interview with the local
newspaper just this past week and they had asked me
about that. Scott and Kate of the Vernon You Voice
gave us our first media coverage when we were starting out.
Since then, they've been getting involved in the mystery, coming
up with their own ideas and theories. One interesting concept
they brought to the table is that the block letter
(13:31):
was written in this fashion as a different expression of
keys A way for him to talk about the details
of his crimes outside of his normal self. Specifically, I'm
wondering if it was maybe such a weird document, because
you know, he was when he when he was first caught,
he was saying he was trying to get used to
talking about these things because he never had a talk
about them before. So I was curious. They were asking
(13:53):
if maybe the block letters and just the way it
was written so strangely, so oddly, was because it was
him trying to figure out how to actually talk about
these things. It was more like a different representation of
like a different part of himself, the duality that he had.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
That's interesting. I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, I thought it was a great, a great idea
to think about. You know, we will probably never be
able to actually see the document. It sounds like it's
absolutely terrible and that there's no there's no real value
to it being in the public, so I guess we'll
never really know. You know, we're all about the same age,
I think, And I don't know if it was prominent
(14:36):
where you guys grew up, but satanic panic was at
least whenever when I was a young child. It was
kind of a big, big thing in the area that
I lived in in Buffalo. Was there any did you
guys hear about that at all? Whenever you guys are kids?
Oh yeah, of course, Okay, okay, yeah, we had like
this wall down the street that everybody said people were
(14:58):
sacrificing rabbits and shit like that. It was creeped me out.
But I didn't know if maybe the time frame, because
Israel was a little bit older than I am, if
maybe that was Satanic panic. Had it sort of a
tie in to him turning to actually be interested in Satanism?
You know, obviously the idea of you know, doing the antithesis.
(15:19):
Whatever his family does, we probably played a big role.
But are there any cases or anything like that that
stand out.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I'm blanking on the perpetrator's name, but there was a
young man from Texas and the the episode we did
on this case, we called it the Slayers Book of
Death because he had a journal that he kept and
he titled the journal Slayer's Book of Death. And I'm
pretty certain that he named it that after the band Slayer,
(15:51):
and he was He committed two murders and got caught, thankfully,
because he would have went on to come many more.
But yeah, he was a young man out of Texas.
This would have been early nineties, like ninety one, I think,
and pretty gruesome stuff that he was doing. But he
was very sloppy, and he was already not just young
(16:12):
and impulsive, but he was already like very much out
of control. You know how some of these guys like
Ted Bundy quite organized in the beginning, and then he
just spirals out of control into this frenzy killer. And
this kid was already he kind of started there and
so he got caught. But like with the Satanism thing,
(16:35):
I feel like you're on the right track. I think
it's it feels more of a feels more about defiance
kind of drove him to that because of because of
either feeling rejected or rejecting his family, feeling rejected by
or rejecting his family. And then you have like Richard Ramirez,
(16:57):
who is he's quite dumb and complicated at the same time.
When people think of Richard Ramirez, they think of devil
worship and satan worship. But he he yes, he did
do a lot of that stuff, but he did that
more so about the that to him was all tied
to the killings, and it was more about, well they
(17:19):
they won't catch me. They can't catch me. I'm too powerful.
I have Satan on my side. I'm fueled by Satan.
But I also that's my luck, my good luck charm.
If you will that he'll keep me safe so I
can stay out here and commit these acts of evil
over and over and over again.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
Well, in the Killer that you're talking about from Texas,
those are episodes four four and four oh five. Jason Massey, Yeah,
that was his name.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
There's also you know, he had family in the Sacramento
area and in the late eighties. They're two different cases
where someone killed multiple people over a short period of time,
either because of Satanism or blamed Satanism. One was Clifford
Saint Joseph and blanking on the other one. The other
(18:12):
one started out I think a lot like keys or
it was assaults and robberies that were blamed on Satanism
and then eventually escalated to murder. But you know, I'm
sure he was aware of those them having occurred in
the same area that his grandmother and aunt lived in
at a you know, pretty formative time in his life.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
This doesn't line up so much with that time frame,
but there's a one out of New York from the
mid eighties early eighties, Ricky Casso. The say you love
satan killer is often his nickname, So I mean there's
no shortage really of ties to that. I mean, it's
(18:54):
clearly not lost on these dudes that they're evil, and
I think in some way they some of these guys
embrace it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Dakota mentioned this, I think in our last conversation with
the five of us that he was under the impression
or I think leaned and correct me if I'm wrong.
Dakota that like this was all just an excuse for
Keys' behavior. It was something he could like blame his
bad behavior on. And I think that's what most of
these cases are. I don't know if you've ever listened
(19:28):
to You're wrong about but she's gone into satanic panic
pretty extensively, and there aren't really any real cases of
Satanism other than these few male serial killers who eventually
blame their crimes on Satanism. But yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
He's like does the reverse where he says that in
the beginning he thought that maybe that was his motivation,
that he was a demon child or you know, a Satanist,
and then once he's incarcerated, he you know, long before
he's incarcerated, he realizes that's not why, and when he's incarcerated,
he doesn't blame that at all. He actually completely backtracks
(20:14):
and says that I just wanted to do it, you know,
So he it's kind of interesting that he doesn't blame
anything for his actions other than him just wanting to
do it.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Actually, that brings up a really good point. And I
think we can figure it out right now because I
know these skulls he drew in July.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, twenty fourth, I believe, and.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
It would be I would be curious to see if
that is around the interview where he's talking about all that,
because it could just be something fresh on his mind.
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Oh yeah, well, and if I can go down a
weird road, maybe it's not yah.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, same week he talked about Satanism in his July
tenth interview.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Oh well, but see, I think it goes back to
you know, even further. I mean, whether you want to
whether it's religion or Star Wars, there's young men that
feel things aren't going their way or they feel a
(21:16):
sense of lack of control. They're looking for some way
to get an edge, to get some type of power,
and that's what most of these killings, most of the
killers out there, there's a if you if you break
down their motivation of killing into like a pie chart,
(21:38):
control and power is always a big part of their motivation.
And so I think it's I mean, it's like, uh,
you know, Anakin Skywalker, It's like, well, the to be
a Jedi, that's powerful, but the dark Side could give
me more power. And I think that's how they get
(22:00):
into reading about Satanism and the dark Side and so
but I think what they all eventually come around two
is that the good the good energy in you or
the negative energy and you is coming from you. It's
(22:22):
not coming from some exterior source. Does that make any
sense at all?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I think that's the perfect way to put it.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Yeah, and Keys, Like I mean, with his upbringing, he
probably had like very little access to mainstream media, so
like the Satanic panic and the I don't know how
much that would have influenced him. But being being a
you know, a kid that was brought up in extreme
belief systems, maybe he was you know easy. It was
(22:56):
easier for him to be influenced by it.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
But it's also fear based religion. It's like, if you
don't do this, Satan's going to get you. And so
again somebody looking for control or looking for powers, going, well,
if Satan is so powerful, then maybe that's the direction
I need to go into. And when people say that
these murders are not satanic on you know, like most
(23:23):
of these killings are not there's nothing to do with Satan. Well,
I think a lot of this is good and evil.
And I was talking to somebody the other day, because
we're talking about Nick just did an interview with this doctor,
Scott Bond. He was and they were talking about the
morphine of these individuals' faces and their eyes. And we've
(23:48):
done at least a handful of interviews where these detectives
and private investigators or authors are talking to these serial
killers and they talk about how you can see their
face morph and contort, and so then you it makes
you wonder if there's if there's a bigger and I
don't want to get like crazy spiritual here, but like,
(24:10):
is there a bigger good versus evil playing out withinside
that human vessel?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
If you will, there's a great video of Richard Ramirez
where he I think he's being interviewed and you can
almost see the change. His intensity is just like off
the charts and like a split second and his eyes
like look like they get darker. It's very very creepy.
I don't know if you guys have ever seen that,
(24:39):
but and you.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Know, when I was a kid reading about serial killers,
that was something that was discussed and I always thought like, oh,
they're just kind of making it very theatrical, right, and
they're just painting a picture for us and making this
guy more of a monster than human, and like when
in these in the books and the writings. But what
(25:03):
sold me on this was not before even seeing that
with Ramirez, was reading about Gacy and it was like
four different people that had that experience with him, independently
of one another and described that, and and it just
(25:24):
blew my mind. At the time. I'm like, this has
to be there has to be some truth to it
if four different people, independently of one another are describing
the same thing with this dude, Like I think one
guy referred to it as like he he went into
almost a like a Frankenstein type state where he like
(25:45):
not only did his face and the sounds that he
made change, but almost like his body went into that
very Mike Myers type mode where it's like, just just
keep going, no matter what, no matter what happens, just
keep going and moving towards the victim and kill the victim.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
I wonder if it's you know, is that good versus
evil within within somebody or is it I mean, can
you define that as just mental illness of some sort?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Well, and some of them, you know, we've described it
many times and we wouldn't be the first that there
is a certain level of addiction for these individuals. I
mean a lot of them become addicted to killing for
any number of reasons. Whether it's the power and control,
like the captain said, if it's a sexual sadist, if
(26:41):
it's whatever's driving them. The feeling of that is so
good and so overpowering to them that they will do this,
knowing fully well, knowing the consequences if they get caught.
And it's almost it's like that that drunk that's got
to get it drink, or or the the guy that's
(27:02):
got to get his fix, and they start chasing that dragon.
After a while, and I think maybe they start morphing physically,
and and the way they sound and things like that,
and and almost a little out of control ish because
they're now so close to that thing that they need,
(27:23):
that thing that that drives them.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Well, there's also the video of Ted Bundy doing an
interview where I think, if you just like Ted Bundy,
the devil appears if you type that into like YouTube.
In this interview, it's people claim that they can see
like the the devil appear on his face. So but
(27:47):
I but but then it goes back to even like
if you want to go deeper into it, like with
a cult like Alistair Crowley, where he he's the one
that starts stating the idea that the evil forces or
the good forces are not coming from external forces, They're
(28:09):
coming from internal forces. And I think also some of
these killers. Again, if we look at like a pie chart,
what percentage of Israel Keys is evil? You can't say
he's one hundred percent of evil, because not one hundred
(28:30):
percent of the time that he's living is he committing
these acts. Even if he's thinking about the acts or
planning the acts, you can't say he's one hundred percent evil. Right,
So is there percentage of their persona that has to
(28:50):
blame it on something else or wants to blame it
on something else because they don't want to believe that
they have a choice.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I wonder about that because I always remind people like two,
all of us these are big, terrible serial killers, but
the majority of Keyes's life was pretty mundane, you know,
like if you're like taking your kid to karate practice
and like, you know, trying to find clients on Craigslist
and like go into fred Meyer to get cigars, like,
(29:24):
the majority of his life is not spent committing heinous crimes.
So and for someone like him who struggles with, you know,
the two different personas or the two different lives that
he's living, I do think, especially someone like Key's who
doesn't seem to love accountability, there could be a sense
of like, well, let me just blame it all on Satanism.
(29:45):
Whether it's because it's easier for him intellectually to do that,
or if it's just fun for him to fuck with people,
or some combination of the two.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think all of what you guys just talked about
is a good reason why he was able to go
long time without committing murder. And it's because of the
addiction and the the planning that he had put in
place where he would you know, he was always making
like a canoe to be able to use the dispose
of a victim, so he was able to use, like
(30:15):
he would always be creating something so it would still
be in it and in his addiction without actually going
out and committing murder. So like Samantha Konig, whenever he
disposes of her body, he builds a container or the
ice house to be able to dispose of her when
he conduce, call and buy it. So like every little
piece of his life going to get cigars to put
in kill kits, et cetera. Like I think was kind
(30:37):
of still him being in his separate mindset without actually
going out and committee murder.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Well, and not to be insensitive, but to me, I
feel like on some level, because again back to I
feel like I need to go buy a cherry pie
or something because I keep talking about a pie chart.
But on some level, this is just a percentage of
their life, just like a hobby. But with any hobby,
(31:10):
I mean, you just take music, for example, you can
practice your guitar, you can play scales, you can play chords,
you can learn songs. You could spend time watching YouTube videos,
you could spend time looking at new guitars to buy.
You can spend time. So it's all a part of
(31:32):
the hobby.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Yeah, necessarily always playing shows or something exactly.
Speaker 5 (31:38):
Yes, So it's all just a percentage. And of course,
you know, for the victims and the victims' families they view,
they're going to view the killers as well. There are
one hundred percent evil and that's just the way it is.
But again, I think it's just a percentage. And then
also does if somebody, let's say, uh, is he spent
(32:00):
thirty percent of his life in this fantasy hobby world
of killing, Well maybe there's some guys out there that
have spent more of their time, but they just never
killed and not to like and I hope you guys
don't take this as an insult, But we also spend
(32:23):
so much time with these killers, and I think we
want to make them extraordinary, but they're really like you know,
like Josh Hallmark said, Israel Keys is not an extraordinary individual.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, I agree. I've said so many times, like the
more we make him a boogeyman, the more power we
give him. And quite frankly, like, the mythology is way
more interesting than Keys was, and that's not to negate
the terrible things he did, but yeah, I agree, like
(33:01):
he was a fallible serial killer who was a lot
better at planning his crimes and executing his crimes. And
I just think, you know, it's so easy to get
caught up in the hype, especially now in the positions
we're in where like we literally are part of the hype.
(33:21):
But yeah, it's like he was just like he was
just a dude who was slightly more intelligent than autist tool.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Like yeah, yeah, And mythology can be damaging to an
investigation also because you can just write things off as
being oh, well he was, you know, extraordinary instead of
just being like an ordinary person.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
And what did he really do that was that great? Yeah,
I mean he's not like he's not like Prince. Prince
was good at basketball. Prince could sing, he could play,
he could dance, he could wear assless chaps. He could
also make you some pancakes. You know, Israel, Keys is
(34:03):
no Prince and you can put that on a T shirt.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Nick and Captain. I don't know if you guys have
gone over any of the interrogation footage of the Israel
Keys in custody and going through the interrogations. I know
that josh and Joshua and I have quite a bit.
Have you, guys ever, have you guys ever noticed a
change in you know, like we were talking about how
(34:31):
the Bundy, you could see the change or see the
devil in his face all of a sudden. Have you
ever noticed anything like that when you're reviewing the interrogations.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I have not. But he is so Keys to me,
and I don't mean to just keep connecting him to BTK,
but BTK called it cubism right, that he had these
many different sides of him and if if he physically
viewed himself like a cube, he could turn and you
(35:01):
would only see whatever side he chose for you to see.
And he claimed to have this ability to only present
that one side of that cube to you and to
so when he was around his family, he needed to
be the family guy. When he was at work, he
needed to be the work guy. When he was in
college he needed to be the student. And when he
(35:23):
was the very perverted, nasty serial killer, he had a
side for that too. Keys. I feel like that's Keys,
like I feel like he knows when to turn it
on and turn it off. I think that when he's
behind closed doors, when he was by himself, like you said,
(35:43):
in the moments of whether it be building a canoe
or out purchasing the cigars, that's when that's when he
got to be that other side of the cube. And
I didn't see any of the like uncontrollably or on control,
losing control. I guess I should say during the course
(36:04):
of those the limited interviews that I have reviewed.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Well, and just to expand on what Nick was talking about,
BTK his daughter for thirty some years never saw that
side of the cube until she was doing an interview
because I believe the FBI and other law enforcement wanted
(36:32):
her to be involved in some of these interviews to
try to get more information out of them, and then
she saw it. So you're talking about thirty some years
of never seeing that, and you would think that maybe
she would remember being six years old or ten years
old and her parents got in a fight or something
and she briefly saw it, but she never saw it.
(36:55):
But I also have noticed something with killers, and depending
on the type of killer, if you look at like
the Menendez brothers, I think they're they're not quote unquote
serial killers. They're not they they're they're they were probably
(37:17):
never going to murder anybody, whether you believe what happened
to them or not. They chose to murder their their
their parents, and if you let them out of prison,
they're probably never going to murder anybody else again. But
people like keys that have this factor X, I think
(37:38):
over time, maybe you don't see them moreph withinside an interview,
but you you see them change physically. And some of
these guys I feel over and maybe it's just they
you know, they didn't age well, right, but but I
think you can almost see the evil coming out of
(38:06):
them as the age, if that makes any sense at all.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
M It's it's what's really interesting is that they asked
Israel about BTK and he said that BTK was a hack.
And I've always thought there was so similar in so
many ways, especially the the trolling phase and trying to
like find locations to do things and like setting the
(38:31):
plan in place. There's like so many different similarities and
you know, being a sexual sadist. But I've always wondered
if the reason he thought it was a hack was
because he stopped killing Josh. Do you have any any
thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I have a few competing thoughts.
I think that's one of them. The other is I
think because he's so closely related to BTK, because he
you know, he talked about feeling more similar to Bundy
and HJ. Sholmes being his favorite, and whenever he mentions
(39:09):
BTK or they mentioned BTK, his hackles kind of go up,
and there's there has to be a reason for that.
So I don't know if it's he identified with him,
or there's something that happened with bo BTK that was
similar to something that happened with him, or just you know,
there was some limitation BTK that he had that he regretted,
maybe the kids thing. Like, I don't know, but I
(39:31):
think there's something deeper to that.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Didn't BTK like publicly apologize in court and like show
vulnerability and.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, and when Keys talks about it, you it's weird.
You almost hear like a level of compassion in his
voice or sympathy. It's it's such a strange interview.
Speaker 5 (39:54):
Yeah, but I think it it comes to like copy
right there, there is so many similarities, similarities there and
then I think, I mean, it's like a musician, right,
It's like a musician that steals all their licks from
the guy before them, and then when they get compared,
(40:17):
it's almost like, ah, you're minimizing my ability. And I
think anytime they brought up BTK that I think he
felt like they were minimizing him. You're just putting me
in this box with this guy, and I want to
be in a box by myself.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Right, And he probably knew the similarities and just didn't
want to be compared in that way.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I think all these possibilities that we're discussing are quite likely.
The I mean BTK though when he was in front
of the judge, he couldn't stop talking. He was very
He's very proud of what he did because he thinks
that he thinks that that makes him smarter and better
(41:03):
than the rest of us and the the But the
thing is, we don't know how much Digging Keys did
on BTK. But one thing that is incredibly when I
think of bt K, I cannot think of Dennis Raider
without thinking of this thing and this this this detail
is not so well known by the masses, but when
(41:28):
he killed the that large portion of the Otero family
he killed. He killed a father, a mother, a little girl,
and a little boy.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
And in his.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Writings about those murders, that was his his first as
far as we know, and first, as far as he's
willing to admit. He goes into the home after some
of the kids had went off to school and then
wipes out this family. Afore, it's a little prolonged, it takes,
you know, it's it's he's taken them out one at
(42:01):
a time. But the thing that's so gross about it
and so just freaking disgusting, is that in his writings
he said that those four were his slaves, and and
and Joseph the father was his, his servant to do
all the physical man work that would bt K thought
(42:22):
of himself as the king of his own castle, a
minotaur actually in his own castle. And I don't know
why he thinks minataurs live in castles. He's not clearly
not done enough reading, but he he envisioned himself as
a minotaur living in a castle. And all the victims
that he claimed and killed became his slaves in what
(42:43):
form that he chose them to become.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Well, just getting getting back to copycat thing. There are
a lot of There are a lot of killers that
actually have used kill kits and rape kits. You know
Bundy obviously, and uh you know, allegedly Richard Allen from
the Delphi case. I know you guys covered at least
well like six to eight episodes on the Delphi murders,
(43:08):
but he had a kit with him as well. But
is Keys the first case that you guys know that
somebody was burying kits and hiding them in advance, because
I've only ever heard about people that bring the kit
along with them to attack a victim. Is that what
is more unique about it, I guess, Or is that
(43:28):
I just have never heard of anything like that other than.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
The burying is the burying the kids is certainly very
unique as far as what I've reviewed over the years. Oftentimes,
when you hear of someone traveling around with a kid,
kill kid, it's it's in their car, you know. Bundy.
Bundy would leave one in his vehicle at all times
because he never knew when the opportunity would present itself.
(43:52):
The one that I think that that Key's mirrors in
a strange way would be the Golden State Killer, because
the Golden State Killer would break into your home and
hide some shit in there and then come back and
use that stuff against you at a later date.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
Yeah, And so like with bt K, I mean when
he he's bringing items with him, but he's also surveilling
the property, so he's bringing a kill kit with him,
but also using the house as a part of the
kill kit or a part of the strategy. And then
you look at like Bundy and you look at like
(44:30):
Edmund Kemper. I think their brain they were their kill kits,
were their cars. And if I can get you in
my car, well now I can control the whole situation.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Mm hmm. That's a good point, I think.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
I think it has to do a lot with you know,
organized disorganized, like how much control you have over yourself
in the moment from moment to moment. And you know, uh,
Golden State Killer keys and he these BTK, any of
these guys with this really long term planning. Like I
think that that's the main difference is are we talking
(45:08):
short term planning, you know, where I just have the
kit in the car, or are we talking extreme long
term planning where I can return to this years later
and then and then use it to commit a crime.
Speaker 5 (45:22):
But I also think it's also like the physicality of
the killer if you look at like a Keys or
a Bundy. You know, when we first started doing the podcast,
for some reason, every time we'd start talking about a
new killer, I would just picture myself in a room
with them, just me and them, and and would I
(45:43):
be afraid of them? And a Bundy or Keys not
not afraid of them? Now maybe a Edmund Kemper because
of the physicality. So I think the ones that were
less physically capable had to do more planning because the
(46:05):
end result wantn't be what they wanted because they would
have the they they were capable of being overpowered. They
were even like Bundy. I think Bundy, because of his
physicality is one of the reasons why, you know, primarily
his victims were all female.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
And I wonder if it's a confidence, you know, like
you say, the sense you know the size or physicality
of the offender. I wonder if for them they know
that and and to be able to become the intimidating
force that they want to be. The planning helps them
get to that point.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Well, and what gets you caught is somebody getting away.
And so the ones the ones that have a longer career,
if you want to call it, that, are the ones
that take the steps to plan enough that they they
really what they're trying to do is reduce their risk
factor of getting caught.
Speaker 5 (47:02):
The smart ones.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
And yeah, just like with any scenario, there are serial
killers that do get lucky on occasion, but it's it
it's primarily the one that gets away that will get
you caught. And so you're really reducing your risk factor
by thinking these things out ahead of time and planning them. Unfortunately,
(47:25):
your victim's at a huge disadvantage because a lot of
times they can't see the train until it's two feet
in front of their face because they don't know that
the whole time, you're setting them up to be the
next victim.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, I had an interesting talk with I think doctor
Ramsland who was saying it's also a huge part of
the ritual. And with keys, it's like, Okay, I'm going
to bury this and for the next two years or
until I use it, I can fantasize about how I'm
going to use it and when I'm going to use it,
and it becomes part of the not only like this
(48:00):
sexual motivation or the sexual reward, but part of the build.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
Up to the kill, well, that's like Joshua was saying
about how he might not be always assaulting, but he's
you know, he's getting that satisfaction out of the planning.
He's getting that satisfaction out of building a canoe or
you know, like always being somehow involved in that fantasy.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
That planning gives them an edge over everybody else. So
it's just really paying attention to planning. We'll set them
up for success. So Nick and Captain, we've obviously the
last Collaboration episode, we were able to identify a potential
cash so we made a connection collaborating together with Josh's team,
(48:47):
and from that we've also been able to find that
there were over seventy maps on Israel's computer and they're
doing a really big forensic deep dive of on his
computer now that they've been able to upgrade some of
the soft where and one of the things we've been
able to do is also in collaboration, tell josh about
to missing people that they believe are not a victim
(49:08):
of keys, and that's Giovannah Tyler and Cynthia Jane Marl.
They have a lot of really close similarities in the
way that they disappeared that it was pretty definitely good
to consider them as potential options. But Josh, if you
want to talk about them at all, if you have
(49:29):
anything to say about them, I'm sure you're probably geting
covered on your show at some point.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
But yeah, we covered Marl a while ago because when
we got the case files in her case after I
think a year after we avoided them, it was pretty
clear that they had two very strong suspects. So we
you know, we're like, this was probably not Keys, but
then getting confirmation from you from hall A via you guys,
(49:53):
I was like, okay, cool, and then yeah, the Giovannah
Tyler case is interesting because she had actually lived in
Nia Bay, just a block from Keys. They were both
arrested by tribal police on the same night, or not
arrested but detained by tribal police on the same night,
(50:13):
and so there's just a lot of interesting coincidences. And
they everyone I've talked to in Nia Bay and people
I've talked to who knew Keys were like, there's no
way these two people did not know each other. So
it just seemed like such a bizarre coincidence that you know,
Keys as a serial killer in this woman, he's spent
some level of time with who he knew who lived
(50:35):
in the same tiny, tiny villages of him disappeared and
disappeared in a fairly keysy and way. So we looked
at it extensively, and she was always pretty high on
our list. So unlike Marl where we were kind of
anticipating that was going to be the response, we were
pretty surprised to hear that the FBI that Ted Hollo
(50:56):
was not only familiar with it with her case, but
said that you know, they did not considered he's a suspect.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
And the other piece of evidence that we're going to
be releasing coming up on the nineteenth is something that
we're pretty excited about to bring to the public. Whenever
Dakota and I first met with especially to Halla in
person on June third, we had asked him to confirm
what was written in Israel cell in blood, and it's
(51:28):
always it was kind of up to for debate on
what the word was, and we just asked him to
just confirm it so that way we can tell everyone.
But instead he actually showed us photos of the cell,
and what we were shown was that not only did
he write characle, but he actually wrote ten other words,
And we have hooked up with this contemporary Canadian artist.
(51:51):
She actually recreated did a rendition of what we saw.
So we're going to be presenting that to the public
on October nineteenth at a live show and we're hoping
that we'll kind of add to the conversation with the
note that was found in his cell, the skulls and
the other writings that were in a cell wall. So
(52:12):
it's a pretty big piece of information that we're excited
to bring, but it's also pretty so.
Speaker 5 (52:17):
So quick quick question. How many you said that there was?
There are single words written in the cell? How many total?
Speaker 2 (52:28):
So there was one word characle and then there was
a sentence that was also written, and that's what is
the new information that will be presenting to everyone. And
the sentence was comprised of ten words. But I'm not
going to reveal that now.
Speaker 5 (52:45):
Okay, But that here's where it gets interesting. If I'm
there was eleven eleven skulls, right, but you're saying that
it is a sentence, but but it's a sentence plus
extra words, so that's eleven words.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah, We've there are a lot of different directions that
this can go in. So it's going to be I
think that's one thing that we're going to try to
do is really lay it out afterwards on the different
scenarios that could potentially come from this, and that's one
of them. That could be that it's actually a code.
It could be that it's just absolutely gibberish and just
(53:27):
something that's tied into a suicide. Note there's different angles
with still connected to beliefs that we're trying to investigate
as well. So it's we're really excited to see what
other people can bring from it, because it's it must
have some importance to him if you wrote it down,
or maybe it's just a red herring, but it's it's
(53:49):
it must have some importance. Is what the way that
we feel about him?
Speaker 4 (53:54):
Well, and at least we want we can add to,
you know, get a fuller picture of of the scene
in the cell, and just to be able to put
all the pieces together and you know, investigate it fully
rather than just having you know, a piece here and
a piece there.
Speaker 5 (54:13):
Well, a question for all three of you, and I
guess Nick could answer this question too, But do you
ever just late at night when you're sitting there looking
up something for the third or fourth hour in a row.
Do you ever just think to yourself, what the hell
am I doing with my life?
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Every day?
Speaker 4 (54:36):
Yes, yeah, all the time, dude, at least three times today.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, It's it's crazy. And to have the access that
we've had so far to be able to bring these
new pieces of information the case is really we're still
kind of gobsmacked by it and just have no idea
like how we got ourselves into this situation. So yeah,
that definitely runs through my head all the time. Yeah, yeah,
(55:07):
And I think you guys may actually be helping with
the presentation of that. I don't know if Nick has
talked to you, yeah, captain, but they were interested in
having you guys help out in a little bit, so
listeners may have something to look forward to in that regard.
Speaker 5 (55:21):
To well, whatever he tells me we're doing.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Okay, we're doing You get that on recording because I
don't think it.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Great. Well cool, guys, I know you guys. It's already
over an hour, so I appreciate your time. Is there
anything last minute that you guys want to talk about
before we say goodbye?
Speaker 5 (55:44):
Well, I do want to thank you you Uh, one
of you sent a very nice email to us, and
that might have feel great, but I got to edit
the interview and and I know you guys some of
you were nerve, but I thought it turned out very well.
We got high praise from a lot of listeners, and
(56:07):
we're just happy to be involved with what I feel
is three brilliant minds and just thankful to be working
and two onlookers, three brilliant minds.
Speaker 4 (56:23):
You know.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
It was what was great about the collaboration with you guys,
and I'm glad that we've been able to, you know,
keep it, keep it running. But this is obviously a
case that's been requested by our listeners many many times.
It is one that we've strongly considered covering many many times.
But it's also one that has been covered many times.
(56:45):
But I think you three are covering it in a
very unique way, in a very brilliant way. That when
you guys reached out, it was like, Yeah, to say
no to this would be would really be dumb on
our parts. So we were happy that you guys shout
to us, and and we're happy to discuss serial killers,
not just Israel keys or other true crime cases with you,
(57:06):
guys whenever, whenever you wish.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
Well, thank you, guys, I really appreciate it. Next, Yeah,
definitely thanks for the collaboration. That was a dream come
true for me. I've always loved both your shows, so
to participate was definitely something very special, which is why
I was.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
So and again the next time you because you guys
are always digging, always hunting, You've found some really interesting stuff.
You've You've left a nice cliffhanger there for everybody that
you have some big reveal coming out, and after this one,
I'm confident that you guys will have another amazing find.
(57:43):
Don't forget about us, right, we were your We were
your friends first.
Speaker 5 (57:47):
Okay, we knew you when and Josh, Josh Hallmark, I
have the photo to prove it. I heard, yeah you
and Lamy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
Well, thank you guys. An We'll talk soon.
Speaker 4 (58:04):
Yeah, thanks so much, guys.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
Cheers a great night.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
We have a good night by everyone. Cheers by.
Speaker 4 (58:12):
Thanks for listening to this Campfire Conversation. If you'd like
to support the show, join us on Patreon at Patreon
dot com. Ford slash Somewhere in the Pines. There aren't
many tickets left for the Berkshire Podcast Festival, so if
you'd like to be there when we release the new information,
you can get your tickets at Berkshire Podcast Festival dot com.
We'd also like to give a very special thank you
(58:33):
to our Patreon producers Heather Horton, Whedon, Nicole Gooseman, Colleen Sullivan,
Rochelle Roberts, Linley Tushoff, Aturman, Caitlin James, Stephanie, Maximo, Kathy
Nation and Pink
This is a studio both and collaboration.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Nick, are we do we think that the captain is
gonna make it or probably just move on?
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I would say, if he's not with us in the
next minute or two, yeah, let's just move on. I
did speak with him. We traded a couple of texts today,
but I spoke with him yesterday and the feeling was,
you know, it's nine o'clock where he is nine pm.
So he expressed an interest. He said, oh, yeah, I
(01:00):
would like to do that. But he did go, but
it's going to be nine o'clock. I said, well, you're
kind of lucky because nine's better than ten. He said,
he is, I might, he goes, I might be talking
to you tomorrow. So he didn't closed the door.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
But you mean you guys don't live together.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
No, no, well he's in the UK Dakota.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
Oh, he's in England. So usually we are only an
hour away from one another, not not time wise, not
time zone wise, driving distance. There's a there's even a
whole county between us and Speak of the Devil. We've
been joined.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, hey, Kathin, I'm here, can you hear me? Yes? Well,
thanks for thanks for joining him From so far away.
Definitely appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Yeah, I'm glad that we're not on video because I'm
I'm like hiding in a little tiny addict.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I would love to see that.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
I bet you would. Josh.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
After our last episode with True Crime Garage and True
Crime Bullshit, we invited the Captain, Nick and Josh Hallmark
back to have another conversation about the Keys case, a
more free flowing back and forth sharing of ideas and perspectives.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Well, I figured, since you know, you know, Nick and
the Captain, you guys are approaching eight hundred episodes probably
over it had to be what almost five hundred cases.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
So yeah, I would say we're probably roughly at about
half the number of episodes we've done, would be dedicated
to somewhere around four hundred. I would guess it is
about the number of cases we've covered.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
True Crime Garage entitled their collaborative episode eleven Skulls. So
we decided to revisit the drawings done by Keys in
his own blood. There were new things to share, and
you can find this image on our website at Somewhere
in the Pines dot com.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
The one thing with the skulls I sent over the
photos two photos, a photo of the skulls that he drew,
and then also a photo of a map and with
the skull picture, I noticed after listening to your episode,
a handful of the skulls have a dot that's located
basically right below the right eye. To me, it's I've
never noticed it until actually going back and looking the
(03:22):
photos again, and didn't know if you guys had ever
seen that or anybody that ever talked about that, and
if it could be like an indicator of maybe certain genders,
whether it's maybe it's like tagging each skull. What did
you any of you guys noticed that.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Or I never had? And now I'm annoyed with myself
because it's like clear as day.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yeah, can you see that? It's it's how many totals?
It maybe five or so.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Or at least four?
Speaker 5 (03:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Yeah? What was he left handed or right handed?
Speaker 2 (03:56):
That's a good question, Josh, do you know?
Speaker 1 (04:01):
I'm sure I have it written down. I have like
a whole biometric thing on him, but I don't know
off the top of my head.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
And I only throw that out there because these are
kind of sloppily put together, these pictures, And how many
times when when we're putting something together with paint or
permanent marker, magic marker. Blood. Yeah, the blood that we
write with all the time. How many times have like
your the side of your hand or the or the
(04:28):
curve of your pinky smeared something on the on the picture.
So I was just looking at it from that angle.
Maybe it's just happenstance that if he were left handed,
I would it wouldn't surprise me to see that kind
of blemish on some of these pictures.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Yeah, A lot of times people actually like steady their
hand by you know, putting the finger down and then
doing that. But they are just so, like you said,
sloply drawn that it kind of stood out as more
of like a a specific point, just just really odd.
I don't know. So I'm curious to see if there's
anything that we can Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I've never noticed the dot before. That's a good observation, Josh.
And I wonder since these are separate sheets of paper,
I wonder there's probably no way to tell now, but
what order they were done in, if he did the
both of them at first, or if he did it last,
or if the messiest skull is the last one he did,
or Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, yeah, and it feels like the we are one
would have been either first or last.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Right.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
That doesn't seem like something you do in the middle
of a of a sequence here, right.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Yeah. I also thought it was interesting. I'm not sure
if we talked about this on your show, but the
the fact that he put the we are one under
the skull instead of under the bath. And I've always
kind of assumed that if these are his victims, then
you know, he would be the Satanic symbol and he
would put we are under that image. But the fact
(06:02):
that it's under one of the skulls kind of throws
me off. And I've seen online more people saying maybe
it's potentially his family because he did have such a
large extended family, or the victims. But does that stand
out to you guys at all?
Speaker 1 (06:20):
I mean, I think you know my opinion on this,
I don't. I think it was mostly just him being
an asshole, so I don't know how much like thought
he put into it. It's also like he could be rushed.
He's obviously bleeding enough to do this masterpiece, and you know,
(06:41):
trying to hide what he's doing from guards, So I like,
I'm not willing to write it off. But I also
I feel like kind of like maybe he wrote it
all or drew it all and then was like, oh,
I want to add this flourish that was just the
one that was in front of him.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Well, I think Josh is right too. That's something we
should remind ourselves of. We don't know if if he
completed the whatever he set out to do with this.
We don't know if he was interrupted and didn't complete it,
or you know, stopped because he was interrupted, or we
really have nothing but a whole lot of guessing to
(07:23):
do here. And then when he leaves something like this behind.
That's why I was a little surprised to hear when
we were talking before that like that he would be
annoyed or bothered by us talking dissecting and analyzing him
today because I see something like this, and this to
me looks like a cry for that, like a like
(07:45):
he's doing it out of desperation. He's hoping to somehow
have people to study.
Speaker 5 (07:53):
Him and analyze him, maybe out of desperation or maybe
out of boredom. I mean, you're in a cell for
twenty four hours a day, so it again, with a
lot of these killers, it's one of those things where
it's like this could mean everything or this could mean nothing.
(08:13):
But I also when you talked about the pentagram drawing
as possibly being the symbol of him, and I'd have
to dive more into his interviews. But like with BTK,
he talks about the the addiction or obsession to kill,
(08:35):
as I believe he calls it X factor, the X factor,
and so some of these killers have this. They almost
separate themselves from the urge or from the thing, the entity.
(08:56):
They almost create an entity of what is driving them
to kill. So I wonder if it's the representation of
himself or maybe a representation of the desire the addiction
to kill.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
We're only guessing that that is meant to represent him.
It's not, obviously, we don't know.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
It's like mister Brooks or Dexter, the Dark Passenger or
the you know, mister Brooks. Kevin Costner's talking, you know,
they show scenes where he's talking to the driving force
that's that's urging him and driving him to kill. And yeah,
that's that's a good point there, Captain. It's BTK had
(09:44):
factor X. But the the other thing to kind of
draw another parallel to BTK with the We Are One
Zodiac BTK and and there's there's no short list of it,
but there are many of the serial killers that believe
(10:04):
that their victims become their possession, that their slaves in
the afterlife, their servants in the afterlife, and BTK certainly
did that, and Zodiac at least claimed that in some
of his communications.
Speaker 5 (10:18):
Well, and that's why Dahmer would eat some of his
victims so they would be with him forever. We are One.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
It's interesting that you mentioned, well, Zodiac are One, because
there's the block letter that we introduced on your show
where he's basically talking about six victims that he murdered
in great detail over ten pages. What was told to us,
the image or the writings were in full block lettering.
(10:48):
It was a very unique document. No space, is no punctuation.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Here's Special Agent Ted Halla on June third, twenty twenty
four explaining the characteristics of the letter. Joshua is talking
about that there was.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
One letter and then there was also another.
Speaker 6 (11:03):
Yeah, so my understanding is there's a letter that he
had written a family and it reads like a goodbye letter, okay,
and then they found this ten page document. It's very unique.
It's written in all caps, no punctuation, no paragraphs, so
and in it he's giving a first first hand account
of victims as he's killing them, extremely graphic, one of
(11:27):
the most disserving things I've ever read my whole career.
And there's six victims that are described, and it looks
like during the last description he's interrupted, so he hasn't finished.
But that's all we have. And we know from our
interviews with him that the first page he talks about
(11:51):
a couple that he's killed, and we believe that's the
Washington couple. Then some of the other ones are known
victims that we know about, matchup the description with what
we know. And then there's a female at the end
that's an unknown victim. That one we don't know who
she is.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Is that the one with the relation to.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
The men, the rich grandmother?
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Yeah, and it was mentioned about, uh, the vehicle that
she was driving as well.
Speaker 6 (12:17):
There is a mention about a vehicle I don't know
of the re refer to the document. If there's anything,
there's no real details about it, at least for investigative least,
but there's a vehicle involved with that one.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
Yeah, and these were all confiscated by the doc and anchorage.
Speaker 6 (12:30):
Yep, Doc Grebus. They My understanding was it was just
a random search of a cell like they do with
prisoners at times, and they found this stuff.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
And are there still uh in evidence up there or
so FBI's got possession of them and.
Speaker 6 (12:46):
A lot of it's been sent to the FBI museum
out there in DC right now. So my understanding, there's
a display on keys out there, and I think the
the skull drawings that he did are out there part
of the display. They sent this letter out, although it's
not displayed like for reading because it's so graphic, but
I think it's mentioned or referred to or in some capacity.
(13:07):
I haven't seen the display yet out.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
There, and I was doing an interview with the local
newspaper just this past week and they had asked me
about that. Scott and Kate of the Vernon You Voice
gave us our first media coverage when we were starting out.
Since then, they've been getting involved in the mystery, coming
up with their own ideas and theories. One interesting concept
they brought to the table is that the block letter
(13:31):
was written in this fashion as a different expression of
keys A way for him to talk about the details
of his crimes outside of his normal self. Specifically, I'm
wondering if it was maybe such a weird document, because
you know, he was when he when he was first caught,
he was saying he was trying to get used to
talking about these things because he never had a talk
about them before. So I was curious. They were asking
(13:53):
if maybe the block letters and just the way it
was written so strangely, so oddly, was because it was
him trying to figure out how to actually talk about
these things. It was more like a different representation of
like a different part of himself, the duality that he had.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
That's interesting. I never thought about it like that.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Yeah, I thought it was a great, a great idea
to think about. You know, we will probably never be
able to actually see the document. It sounds like it's
absolutely terrible and that there's no there's no real value
to it being in the public, so I guess we'll
never really know. You know, we're all about the same age,
I think, And I don't know if it was prominent
(14:36):
where you guys grew up, but satanic panic was at
least whenever when I was a young child. It was
kind of a big, big thing in the area that
I lived in in Buffalo. Was there any did you
guys hear about that at all? Whenever you guys are kids?
Oh yeah, of course, Okay, okay, yeah, we had like
this wall down the street that everybody said people were
(14:58):
sacrificing rabbits and shit like that. It was creeped me out.
But I didn't know if maybe the time frame, because
Israel was a little bit older than I am, if
maybe that was Satanic panic. Had it sort of a
tie in to him turning to actually be interested in Satanism?
You know, obviously the idea of you know, doing the antithesis.
(15:19):
Whatever his family does, we probably played a big role.
But are there any cases or anything like that that
stand out.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
I'm blanking on the perpetrator's name, but there was a
young man from Texas and the the episode we did
on this case, we called it the Slayers Book of
Death because he had a journal that he kept and
he titled the journal Slayer's Book of Death. And I'm
pretty certain that he named it that after the band Slayer,
(15:51):
and he was He committed two murders and got caught, thankfully,
because he would have went on to come many more.
But yeah, he was a young man out of Texas.
This would have been early nineties, like ninety one, I think,
and pretty gruesome stuff that he was doing. But he
was very sloppy, and he was already not just young
(16:12):
and impulsive, but he was already like very much out
of control. You know how some of these guys like
Ted Bundy quite organized in the beginning, and then he
just spirals out of control into this frenzy killer. And
this kid was already he kind of started there and
so he got caught. But like with the Satanism thing,
(16:35):
I feel like you're on the right track. I think
it's it feels more of a feels more about defiance
kind of drove him to that because of because of
either feeling rejected or rejecting his family, feeling rejected by
or rejecting his family. And then you have like Richard Ramirez,
(16:57):
who is he's quite dumb and complicated at the same time.
When people think of Richard Ramirez, they think of devil
worship and satan worship. But he he yes, he did
do a lot of that stuff, but he did that
more so about the that to him was all tied
to the killings, and it was more about, well they
(17:19):
they won't catch me. They can't catch me. I'm too powerful.
I have Satan on my side. I'm fueled by Satan.
But I also that's my luck, my good luck charm.
If you will that he'll keep me safe so I
can stay out here and commit these acts of evil
over and over and over again.
Speaker 5 (17:39):
Well, in the Killer that you're talking about from Texas,
those are episodes four four and four oh five. Jason Massey, Yeah,
that was his name.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
There's also you know, he had family in the Sacramento
area and in the late eighties. They're two different cases
where someone killed multiple people over a short period of time,
either because of Satanism or blamed Satanism. One was Clifford
Saint Joseph and blanking on the other one. The other
(18:12):
one started out I think a lot like keys or
it was assaults and robberies that were blamed on Satanism
and then eventually escalated to murder. But you know, I'm
sure he was aware of those them having occurred in
the same area that his grandmother and aunt lived in
at a you know, pretty formative time in his life.
Speaker 3 (18:33):
This doesn't line up so much with that time frame,
but there's a one out of New York from the
mid eighties early eighties, Ricky Casso. The say you love
satan killer is often his nickname, So I mean there's
no shortage really of ties to that. I mean, it's
(18:54):
clearly not lost on these dudes that they're evil, and
I think in some way they some of these guys
embrace it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Dakota mentioned this, I think in our last conversation with
the five of us that he was under the impression
or I think leaned and correct me if I'm wrong.
Dakota that like this was all just an excuse for
Keys' behavior. It was something he could like blame his
bad behavior on. And I think that's what most of
these cases are. I don't know if you've ever listened
(19:28):
to You're wrong about but she's gone into satanic panic
pretty extensively, and there aren't really any real cases of
Satanism other than these few male serial killers who eventually
blame their crimes on Satanism. But yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
He's like does the reverse where he says that in
the beginning he thought that maybe that was his motivation,
that he was a demon child or you know, a Satanist,
and then once he's incarcerated, he you know, long before
he's incarcerated, he realizes that's not why, and when he's incarcerated,
he doesn't blame that at all. He actually completely backtracks
(20:14):
and says that I just wanted to do it, you know,
So he it's kind of interesting that he doesn't blame
anything for his actions other than him just wanting to
do it.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Actually, that brings up a really good point. And I
think we can figure it out right now because I
know these skulls he drew in July.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, twenty fourth, I believe, and.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
It would be I would be curious to see if
that is around the interview where he's talking about all that,
because it could just be something fresh on his mind.
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Oh yeah, well, and if I can go down a
weird road, maybe it's not yah.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah, same week he talked about Satanism in his July
tenth interview.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Oh well, but see, I think it goes back to
you know, even further. I mean, whether you want to
whether it's religion or Star Wars, there's young men that
feel things aren't going their way or they feel a
(21:16):
sense of lack of control. They're looking for some way
to get an edge, to get some type of power,
and that's what most of these killings, most of the
killers out there, there's a if you if you break
down their motivation of killing into like a pie chart,
(21:38):
control and power is always a big part of their motivation.
And so I think it's I mean, it's like, uh,
you know, Anakin Skywalker, It's like, well, the to be
a Jedi, that's powerful, but the dark Side could give
me more power. And I think that's how they get
(22:00):
into reading about Satanism and the dark Side and so
but I think what they all eventually come around two
is that the good the good energy in you or
the negative energy and you is coming from you. It's
(22:22):
not coming from some exterior source. Does that make any
sense at all?
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I think that's the perfect way to put it.
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Yeah, and Keys, Like I mean, with his upbringing, he
probably had like very little access to mainstream media, so
like the Satanic panic and the I don't know how
much that would have influenced him. But being being a
you know, a kid that was brought up in extreme
belief systems, maybe he was you know easy. It was
(22:56):
easier for him to be influenced by it.
Speaker 5 (22:58):
But it's also fear based religion. It's like, if you
don't do this, Satan's going to get you. And so
again somebody looking for control or looking for powers, going, well,
if Satan is so powerful, then maybe that's the direction
I need to go into. And when people say that
these murders are not satanic on you know, like most
(23:23):
of these killings are not there's nothing to do with Satan. Well,
I think a lot of this is good and evil.
And I was talking to somebody the other day, because
we're talking about Nick just did an interview with this doctor,
Scott Bond. He was and they were talking about the
morphine of these individuals' faces and their eyes. And we've
(23:48):
done at least a handful of interviews where these detectives
and private investigators or authors are talking to these serial
killers and they talk about how you can see their
face morph and contort, and so then you it makes
you wonder if there's if there's a bigger and I
don't want to get like crazy spiritual here, but like,
(24:10):
is there a bigger good versus evil playing out withinside
that human vessel?
Speaker 2 (24:19):
If you will, there's a great video of Richard Ramirez
where he I think he's being interviewed and you can
almost see the change. His intensity is just like off
the charts and like a split second and his eyes
like look like they get darker. It's very very creepy.
I don't know if you guys have ever seen that,
(24:39):
but and you.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Know, when I was a kid reading about serial killers,
that was something that was discussed and I always thought like, oh,
they're just kind of making it very theatrical, right, and
they're just painting a picture for us and making this
guy more of a monster than human, and like when
in these in the books and the writings. But what
(25:03):
sold me on this was not before even seeing that
with Ramirez, was reading about Gacy and it was like
four different people that had that experience with him, independently
of one another and described that, and and it just
(25:24):
blew my mind. At the time. I'm like, this has
to be there has to be some truth to it
if four different people, independently of one another are describing
the same thing with this dude, Like I think one
guy referred to it as like he he went into
almost a like a Frankenstein type state where he like
(25:45):
not only did his face and the sounds that he
made change, but almost like his body went into that
very Mike Myers type mode where it's like, just just
keep going, no matter what, no matter what happens, just
keep going and moving towards the victim and kill the victim.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:09):
I wonder if it's you know, is that good versus
evil within within somebody or is it I mean, can
you define that as just mental illness of some sort?
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Well, and some of them, you know, we've described it
many times and we wouldn't be the first that there
is a certain level of addiction for these individuals. I
mean a lot of them become addicted to killing for
any number of reasons. Whether it's the power and control,
like the captain said, if it's a sexual sadist, if
(26:41):
it's whatever's driving them. The feeling of that is so
good and so overpowering to them that they will do this,
knowing fully well, knowing the consequences if they get caught.
And it's almost it's like that that drunk that's got
to get it drink, or or the the guy that's
(27:02):
got to get his fix, and they start chasing that dragon.
After a while, and I think maybe they start morphing physically,
and and the way they sound and things like that,
and and almost a little out of control ish because
they're now so close to that thing that they need,
(27:23):
that thing that that drives them.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Well, there's also the video of Ted Bundy doing an
interview where I think, if you just like Ted Bundy,
the devil appears if you type that into like YouTube.
In this interview, it's people claim that they can see
like the the devil appear on his face. So but
(27:47):
I but but then it goes back to even like
if you want to go deeper into it, like with
a cult like Alistair Crowley, where he he's the one
that starts stating the idea that the evil forces or
the good forces are not coming from external forces, They're
(28:09):
coming from internal forces. And I think also some of
these killers. Again, if we look at like a pie chart,
what percentage of Israel Keys is evil? You can't say
he's one hundred percent of evil, because not one hundred
(28:30):
percent of the time that he's living is he committing
these acts. Even if he's thinking about the acts or
planning the acts, you can't say he's one hundred percent evil. Right,
So is there percentage of their persona that has to
(28:50):
blame it on something else or wants to blame it
on something else because they don't want to believe that
they have a choice.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
I wonder about that because I always remind people like two,
all of us these are big, terrible serial killers, but
the majority of Keyes's life was pretty mundane, you know,
like if you're like taking your kid to karate practice
and like, you know, trying to find clients on Craigslist
and like go into fred Meyer to get cigars, like,
(29:24):
the majority of his life is not spent committing heinous crimes.
So and for someone like him who struggles with, you know,
the two different personas or the two different lives that
he's living, I do think, especially someone like Key's who
doesn't seem to love accountability, there could be a sense
of like, well, let me just blame it all on Satanism.
(29:45):
Whether it's because it's easier for him intellectually to do that,
or if it's just fun for him to fuck with people,
or some combination of the two.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think all of what you guys just talked about
is a good reason why he was able to go
long time without committing murder. And it's because of the
addiction and the the planning that he had put in
place where he would you know, he was always making
like a canoe to be able to use the dispose
of a victim, so he was able to use, like
(30:15):
he would always be creating something so it would still
be in it and in his addiction without actually going
out and committing murder. So like Samantha Konig, whenever he
disposes of her body, he builds a container or the
ice house to be able to dispose of her when
he conduce, call and buy it. So like every little
piece of his life going to get cigars to put
in kill kits, et cetera. Like I think was kind
(30:37):
of still him being in his separate mindset without actually
going out and committee murder.
Speaker 5 (30:46):
Well, and not to be insensitive, but to me, I
feel like on some level, because again back to I
feel like I need to go buy a cherry pie
or something because I keep talking about a pie chart.
But on some level, this is just a percentage of
their life, just like a hobby. But with any hobby,
(31:10):
I mean, you just take music, for example, you can
practice your guitar, you can play scales, you can play chords,
you can learn songs. You could spend time watching YouTube videos,
you could spend time looking at new guitars to buy.
You can spend time. So it's all a part of
(31:32):
the hobby.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Yeah, necessarily always playing shows or something exactly.
Speaker 5 (31:38):
Yes, So it's all just a percentage. And of course,
you know, for the victims and the victims' families they view,
they're going to view the killers as well. There are
one hundred percent evil and that's just the way it is.
But again, I think it's just a percentage. And then
also does if somebody, let's say, uh, is he spent
(32:00):
thirty percent of his life in this fantasy hobby world
of killing, Well maybe there's some guys out there that
have spent more of their time, but they just never
killed and not to like and I hope you guys
don't take this as an insult, But we also spend
(32:23):
so much time with these killers, and I think we
want to make them extraordinary, but they're really like you know,
like Josh Hallmark said, Israel Keys is not an extraordinary individual.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Yeah, I agree. I've said so many times, like the
more we make him a boogeyman, the more power we
give him. And quite frankly, like, the mythology is way
more interesting than Keys was, and that's not to negate
the terrible things he did, but yeah, I agree, like
(33:01):
he was a fallible serial killer who was a lot
better at planning his crimes and executing his crimes. And
I just think, you know, it's so easy to get
caught up in the hype, especially now in the positions
we're in where like we literally are part of the hype.
(33:21):
But yeah, it's like he was just like he was
just a dude who was slightly more intelligent than autist tool.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Like yeah, yeah, And mythology can be damaging to an
investigation also because you can just write things off as
being oh, well he was, you know, extraordinary instead of
just being like an ordinary person.
Speaker 5 (33:42):
And what did he really do that was that great? Yeah,
I mean he's not like he's not like Prince. Prince
was good at basketball. Prince could sing, he could play,
he could dance, he could wear assless chaps. He could
also make you some pancakes. You know, Israel, Keys is
(34:03):
no Prince and you can put that on a T shirt.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Nick and Captain. I don't know if you guys have
gone over any of the interrogation footage of the Israel
Keys in custody and going through the interrogations. I know
that josh and Joshua and I have quite a bit.
Have you, guys ever, have you guys ever noticed a
change in you know, like we were talking about how
(34:31):
the Bundy, you could see the change or see the
devil in his face all of a sudden. Have you
ever noticed anything like that when you're reviewing the interrogations.
Speaker 3 (34:41):
I have not. But he is so Keys to me,
and I don't mean to just keep connecting him to BTK,
but BTK called it cubism right, that he had these
many different sides of him and if if he physically
viewed himself like a cube, he could turn and you
(35:01):
would only see whatever side he chose for you to see.
And he claimed to have this ability to only present
that one side of that cube to you and to
so when he was around his family, he needed to
be the family guy. When he was at work, he
needed to be the work guy. When he was in
college he needed to be the student. And when he
(35:23):
was the very perverted, nasty serial killer, he had a
side for that too. Keys. I feel like that's Keys,
like I feel like he knows when to turn it
on and turn it off. I think that when he's
behind closed doors, when he was by himself, like you said,
(35:43):
in the moments of whether it be building a canoe
or out purchasing the cigars, that's when that's when he
got to be that other side of the cube. And
I didn't see any of the like uncontrollably or on control,
losing control. I guess I should say during the course
(36:04):
of those the limited interviews that I have reviewed.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Well, and just to expand on what Nick was talking about,
BTK his daughter for thirty some years never saw that
side of the cube until she was doing an interview
because I believe the FBI and other law enforcement wanted
(36:32):
her to be involved in some of these interviews to
try to get more information out of them, and then
she saw it. So you're talking about thirty some years
of never seeing that, and you would think that maybe
she would remember being six years old or ten years
old and her parents got in a fight or something
and she briefly saw it, but she never saw it.
(36:55):
But I also have noticed something with killers, and depending
on the type of killer, if you look at like
the Menendez brothers, I think they're they're not quote unquote
serial killers. They're not they they're they're they were probably
(37:17):
never going to murder anybody, whether you believe what happened
to them or not. They chose to murder their their
their parents, and if you let them out of prison,
they're probably never going to murder anybody else again. But
people like keys that have this factor X, I think
(37:38):
over time, maybe you don't see them moreph withinside an interview,
but you you see them change physically. And some of
these guys I feel over and maybe it's just they
you know, they didn't age well, right, but but I
think you can almost see the evil coming out of
(38:06):
them as the age, if that makes any sense at all.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
M It's it's what's really interesting is that they asked
Israel about BTK and he said that BTK was a hack.
And I've always thought there was so similar in so
many ways, especially the the trolling phase and trying to
like find locations to do things and like setting the
(38:31):
plan in place. There's like so many different similarities and
you know, being a sexual sadist. But I've always wondered
if the reason he thought it was a hack was
because he stopped killing Josh. Do you have any any
thoughts on that?
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I have a few competing thoughts.
I think that's one of them. The other is I
think because he's so closely related to BTK, because he
you know, he talked about feeling more similar to Bundy
and HJ. Sholmes being his favorite, and whenever he mentions
(39:09):
BTK or they mentioned BTK, his hackles kind of go up,
and there's there has to be a reason for that.
So I don't know if it's he identified with him,
or there's something that happened with bo BTK that was
similar to something that happened with him, or just you know,
there was some limitation BTK that he had that he regretted,
maybe the kids thing. Like, I don't know, but I
(39:31):
think there's something deeper to that.
Speaker 4 (39:33):
Didn't BTK like publicly apologize in court and like show
vulnerability and.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
Yeah, and when Keys talks about it, you it's weird.
You almost hear like a level of compassion in his
voice or sympathy. It's it's such a strange interview.
Speaker 5 (39:54):
Yeah, but I think it it comes to like copy
right there, there is so many similarities, similarities there and
then I think, I mean, it's like a musician, right,
It's like a musician that steals all their licks from
the guy before them, and then when they get compared,
(40:17):
it's almost like, ah, you're minimizing my ability. And I
think anytime they brought up BTK that I think he
felt like they were minimizing him. You're just putting me
in this box with this guy, and I want to
be in a box by myself.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Right, And he probably knew the similarities and just didn't
want to be compared in that way.
Speaker 3 (40:42):
I think all these possibilities that we're discussing are quite likely.
The I mean BTK though when he was in front
of the judge, he couldn't stop talking. He was very
He's very proud of what he did because he thinks
that he thinks that that makes him smarter and better
(41:03):
than the rest of us and the the But the
thing is, we don't know how much Digging Keys did
on BTK. But one thing that is incredibly when I
think of bt K, I cannot think of Dennis Raider
without thinking of this thing and this this this detail
is not so well known by the masses, but when
(41:28):
he killed the that large portion of the Otero family
he killed. He killed a father, a mother, a little girl,
and a little boy.
Speaker 5 (41:37):
And in his.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
Writings about those murders, that was his his first as
far as we know, and first, as far as he's
willing to admit. He goes into the home after some
of the kids had went off to school and then
wipes out this family. Afore, it's a little prolonged, it takes,
you know, it's it's he's taken them out one at
(42:01):
a time. But the thing that's so gross about it
and so just freaking disgusting, is that in his writings
he said that those four were his slaves, and and
and Joseph the father was his, his servant to do
all the physical man work that would bt K thought
(42:22):
of himself as the king of his own castle, a
minotaur actually in his own castle. And I don't know
why he thinks minataurs live in castles. He's not clearly
not done enough reading, but he he envisioned himself as
a minotaur living in a castle. And all the victims
that he claimed and killed became his slaves in what
(42:43):
form that he chose them to become.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Well, just getting getting back to copycat thing. There are
a lot of There are a lot of killers that
actually have used kill kits and rape kits. You know
Bundy obviously, and uh you know, allegedly Richard Allen from
the Delphi case. I know you guys covered at least
well like six to eight episodes on the Delphi murders,
(43:08):
but he had a kit with him as well. But
is Keys the first case that you guys know that
somebody was burying kits and hiding them in advance, because
I've only ever heard about people that bring the kit
along with them to attack a victim. Is that what
is more unique about it, I guess, Or is that
(43:28):
I just have never heard of anything like that other than.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
The burying is the burying the kids is certainly very
unique as far as what I've reviewed over the years. Oftentimes,
when you hear of someone traveling around with a kid,
kill kid, it's it's in their car, you know. Bundy.
Bundy would leave one in his vehicle at all times
because he never knew when the opportunity would present itself.
(43:52):
The one that I think that that Key's mirrors in
a strange way would be the Golden State Killer, because
the Golden State Killer would break into your home and
hide some shit in there and then come back and
use that stuff against you at a later date.
Speaker 5 (44:07):
Yeah, And so like with bt K, I mean when
he he's bringing items with him, but he's also surveilling
the property, so he's bringing a kill kit with him,
but also using the house as a part of the
kill kit or a part of the strategy. And then
you look at like Bundy and you look at like
(44:30):
Edmund Kemper. I think their brain they were their kill kits,
were their cars. And if I can get you in
my car, well now I can control the whole situation.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Mm hmm. That's a good point, I think.
Speaker 4 (44:46):
I think it has to do a lot with you know,
organized disorganized, like how much control you have over yourself
in the moment from moment to moment. And you know, uh,
Golden State Killer keys and he these BTK, any of
these guys with this really long term planning. Like I
think that that's the main difference is are we talking
(45:08):
short term planning, you know, where I just have the
kit in the car, or are we talking extreme long
term planning where I can return to this years later
and then and then use it to commit a crime.
Speaker 5 (45:22):
But I also think it's also like the physicality of
the killer if you look at like a Keys or
a Bundy. You know, when we first started doing the podcast,
for some reason, every time we'd start talking about a
new killer, I would just picture myself in a room
with them, just me and them, and and would I
(45:43):
be afraid of them? And a Bundy or Keys not
not afraid of them? Now maybe a Edmund Kemper because
of the physicality. So I think the ones that were
less physically capable had to do more planning because the
(46:05):
end result wantn't be what they wanted because they would
have the they they were capable of being overpowered. They
were even like Bundy. I think Bundy, because of his
physicality is one of the reasons why, you know, primarily
his victims were all female.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
And I wonder if it's a confidence, you know, like
you say, the sense you know the size or physicality
of the offender. I wonder if for them they know
that and and to be able to become the intimidating
force that they want to be. The planning helps them
get to that point.
Speaker 3 (46:44):
Well, and what gets you caught is somebody getting away.
And so the ones the ones that have a longer career,
if you want to call it, that, are the ones
that take the steps to plan enough that they they
really what they're trying to do is reduce their risk
factor of getting caught.
Speaker 5 (47:02):
The smart ones.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
And yeah, just like with any scenario, there are serial
killers that do get lucky on occasion, but it's it
it's primarily the one that gets away that will get
you caught. And so you're really reducing your risk factor
by thinking these things out ahead of time and planning them. Unfortunately,
(47:25):
your victim's at a huge disadvantage because a lot of
times they can't see the train until it's two feet
in front of their face because they don't know that
the whole time, you're setting them up to be the
next victim.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
Yeah, I had an interesting talk with I think doctor
Ramsland who was saying it's also a huge part of
the ritual. And with keys, it's like, Okay, I'm going
to bury this and for the next two years or
until I use it, I can fantasize about how I'm
going to use it and when I'm going to use it,
and it becomes part of the not only like this
(48:00):
sexual motivation or the sexual reward, but part of the build.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
Up to the kill, well, that's like Joshua was saying
about how he might not be always assaulting, but he's
you know, he's getting that satisfaction out of the planning.
He's getting that satisfaction out of building a canoe or
you know, like always being somehow involved in that fantasy.
Speaker 2 (48:26):
That planning gives them an edge over everybody else. So
it's just really paying attention to planning. We'll set them
up for success. So Nick and Captain, we've obviously the
last Collaboration episode, we were able to identify a potential
cash so we made a connection collaborating together with Josh's team,
(48:47):
and from that we've also been able to find that
there were over seventy maps on Israel's computer and they're
doing a really big forensic deep dive of on his
computer now that they've been able to upgrade some of
the soft where and one of the things we've been
able to do is also in collaboration, tell josh about
to missing people that they believe are not a victim
(49:08):
of keys, and that's Giovannah Tyler and Cynthia Jane Marl.
They have a lot of really close similarities in the
way that they disappeared that it was pretty definitely good
to consider them as potential options. But Josh, if you
want to talk about them at all, if you have
(49:29):
anything to say about them, I'm sure you're probably geting
covered on your show at some point.
Speaker 1 (49:32):
But yeah, we covered Marl a while ago because when
we got the case files in her case after I
think a year after we avoided them, it was pretty
clear that they had two very strong suspects. So we
you know, we're like, this was probably not Keys, but
then getting confirmation from you from hall A via you guys,
(49:53):
I was like, okay, cool, and then yeah, the Giovannah
Tyler case is interesting because she had actually lived in
Nia Bay, just a block from Keys. They were both
arrested by tribal police on the same night, or not
arrested but detained by tribal police on the same night,
(50:13):
and so there's just a lot of interesting coincidences. And
they everyone I've talked to in Nia Bay and people
I've talked to who knew Keys were like, there's no
way these two people did not know each other. So
it just seemed like such a bizarre coincidence that you know,
Keys as a serial killer in this woman, he's spent
some level of time with who he knew who lived
(50:35):
in the same tiny, tiny villages of him disappeared and
disappeared in a fairly keysy and way. So we looked
at it extensively, and she was always pretty high on
our list. So unlike Marl where we were kind of
anticipating that was going to be the response, we were
pretty surprised to hear that the FBI that Ted Hollo
(50:56):
was not only familiar with it with her case, but
said that you know, they did not considered he's a suspect.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
And the other piece of evidence that we're going to
be releasing coming up on the nineteenth is something that
we're pretty excited about to bring to the public. Whenever
Dakota and I first met with especially to Halla in
person on June third, we had asked him to confirm
what was written in Israel cell in blood, and it's
(51:28):
always it was kind of up to for debate on
what the word was, and we just asked him to
just confirm it so that way we can tell everyone.
But instead he actually showed us photos of the cell,
and what we were shown was that not only did
he write characle, but he actually wrote ten other words,
And we have hooked up with this contemporary Canadian artist.
(51:51):
She actually recreated did a rendition of what we saw.
So we're going to be presenting that to the public
on October nineteenth at a live show and we're hoping
that we'll kind of add to the conversation with the
note that was found in his cell, the skulls and
the other writings that were in a cell wall. So
(52:12):
it's a pretty big piece of information that we're excited
to bring, but it's also pretty so.
Speaker 5 (52:17):
So quick quick question. How many you said that there was?
There are single words written in the cell? How many total?
Speaker 2 (52:28):
So there was one word characle and then there was
a sentence that was also written, and that's what is
the new information that will be presenting to everyone. And
the sentence was comprised of ten words. But I'm not
going to reveal that now.
Speaker 5 (52:45):
Okay, But that here's where it gets interesting. If I'm
there was eleven eleven skulls, right, but you're saying that
it is a sentence, but but it's a sentence plus
extra words, so that's eleven words.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Yeah, We've there are a lot of different directions that
this can go in. So it's going to be I
think that's one thing that we're going to try to
do is really lay it out afterwards on the different
scenarios that could potentially come from this, and that's one
of them. That could be that it's actually a code.
It could be that it's just absolutely gibberish and just
(53:27):
something that's tied into a suicide. Note there's different angles
with still connected to beliefs that we're trying to investigate
as well. So it's we're really excited to see what
other people can bring from it, because it's it must
have some importance to him if you wrote it down,
or maybe it's just a red herring, but it's it's
(53:49):
it must have some importance. Is what the way that
we feel about him?
Speaker 4 (53:54):
Well, and at least we want we can add to,
you know, get a fuller picture of of the scene
in the cell, and just to be able to put
all the pieces together and you know, investigate it fully
rather than just having you know, a piece here and
a piece there.
Speaker 5 (54:13):
Well, a question for all three of you, and I
guess Nick could answer this question too, But do you
ever just late at night when you're sitting there looking
up something for the third or fourth hour in a row.
Do you ever just think to yourself, what the hell
am I doing with my life?
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Every day?
Speaker 4 (54:36):
Yes, yeah, all the time, dude, at least three times today.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
Yeah, It's it's crazy. And to have the access that
we've had so far to be able to bring these
new pieces of information the case is really we're still
kind of gobsmacked by it and just have no idea
like how we got ourselves into this situation. So yeah,
that definitely runs through my head all the time. Yeah, yeah,
(55:07):
And I think you guys may actually be helping with
the presentation of that. I don't know if Nick has
talked to you, yeah, captain, but they were interested in
having you guys help out in a little bit, so
listeners may have something to look forward to in that regard.
Speaker 5 (55:21):
To well, whatever he tells me we're doing.
Speaker 3 (55:24):
Okay, we're doing You get that on recording because I
don't think it.
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Great. Well cool, guys, I know you guys. It's already
over an hour, so I appreciate your time. Is there
anything last minute that you guys want to talk about
before we say goodbye?
Speaker 5 (55:44):
Well, I do want to thank you you Uh, one
of you sent a very nice email to us, and
that might have feel great, but I got to edit
the interview and and I know you guys some of
you were nerve, but I thought it turned out very well.
We got high praise from a lot of listeners, and
(56:07):
we're just happy to be involved with what I feel
is three brilliant minds and just thankful to be working
and two onlookers, three brilliant minds.
Speaker 4 (56:23):
You know.
Speaker 3 (56:23):
It was what was great about the collaboration with you guys,
and I'm glad that we've been able to, you know,
keep it, keep it running. But this is obviously a
case that's been requested by our listeners many many times.
It is one that we've strongly considered covering many many times.
But it's also one that has been covered many times.
(56:45):
But I think you three are covering it in a
very unique way, in a very brilliant way. That when
you guys reached out, it was like, Yeah, to say
no to this would be would really be dumb on
our parts. So we were happy that you guys shout
to us, and and we're happy to discuss serial killers,
not just Israel keys or other true crime cases with you,
(57:06):
guys whenever, whenever you wish.
Speaker 2 (57:09):
Well, thank you, guys, I really appreciate it. Next, Yeah,
definitely thanks for the collaboration. That was a dream come
true for me. I've always loved both your shows, so
to participate was definitely something very special, which is why
I was.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
So and again the next time you because you guys
are always digging, always hunting, You've found some really interesting stuff.
You've You've left a nice cliffhanger there for everybody that
you have some big reveal coming out, and after this one,
I'm confident that you guys will have another amazing find.
(57:43):
Don't forget about us, right, we were your We were
your friends first.
Speaker 5 (57:47):
Okay, we knew you when and Josh, Josh Hallmark, I
have the photo to prove it. I heard, yeah you
and Lamy. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (58:00):
Well, thank you guys. An We'll talk soon.
Speaker 4 (58:04):
Yeah, thanks so much, guys.
Speaker 3 (58:05):
Cheers a great night.
Speaker 2 (58:06):
We have a good night by everyone. Cheers by.
Speaker 4 (58:12):
Thanks for listening to this Campfire Conversation. If you'd like
to support the show, join us on Patreon at Patreon
dot com. Ford slash Somewhere in the Pines. There aren't
many tickets left for the Berkshire Podcast Festival, so if
you'd like to be there when we release the new information,
you can get your tickets at Berkshire Podcast Festival dot com.
We'd also like to give a very special thank you
(58:33):
to our Patreon producers Heather Horton, Whedon, Nicole Gooseman, Colleen Sullivan,
Rochelle Roberts, Linley Tushoff, Aturman, Caitlin James, Stephanie, Maximo, Kathy
Nation and Pink
Popular Podcasts
My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark
My Favorite Murder is a true crime comedy podcast hosted by Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark. Each week, Karen and Georgia share compelling true crimes and hometown stories from friends and listeners. Since MFM launched in January of 2016, Karen and Georgia have shared their lifelong interest in true crime and have covered stories of infamous serial killers like the Night Stalker, mysterious cold cases, captivating cults, incredible survivor stories and important events from history like the Tulsa race massacre of 1921. My Favorite Murder is part of the Exactly Right podcast network that provides a platform for bold, creative voices to bring to life provocative, entertaining and relatable stories for audiences everywhere. The Exactly Right roster of podcasts covers a variety of topics including historic true crime, comedic interviews and news, science, pop culture and more. Podcasts on the network include Buried Bones with Kate Winkler Dawson and Paul Holes, That's Messed Up: An SVU Podcast, This Podcast Will Kill You, Bananas and more.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com