August 22, 2024 • 51 mins
If you have a tip, please call 1-800-CALL-FBI (1-800-225-5324)
In our third interview ever, we call in for an hour long conversation with FBI SA Ted Halla from the Western Washington Seattle division. An Agent that once sat across the table from Israel Keyes. Finding out how important this case still is to law enforcement and just how much information the FBI is willing to share.
In this episode, we begin to Fact check leads from the case file as we break down whether jurisdictional lines were a part of Israel's plan. Which leads to us discovering a new point on the map to add to the investigation.
With Special Guests:SA Ted Halla, Steven Bernd, and Amy Alexander
Private Investigator Haydn Dolata
Anonymous Federal Law Enforcement Officer
Peggy from Truth in the Shadow Podcast
Researched, Written, Recorded, Edited, and Produced by Somewhere in the Pines
Patreon Producers:
Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Colleen Sullivan
Rochelle Roberts
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Attar Mann
This is a Studio BOTH/AND collaboration: www.somewhereinthepines.com / bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
For early episodes and more: www.Patreon.com/somewhereinthepines
Resources:
"From the Special Agent in charge" - Richard A. Collodi
Researcher Kim K.
CBS NEWS: FBI reveals new evidence in hopes of identifying unknown victims of serial killer
By Peter Van Sant
March 13, 2021 / 10:05 PM EST / CBS News
FBI Case File
Special Forces Caching Techniques Manual
Montage -
CBSN Live
CBS NEWS
NBC5 - WPTZ
KPTV
Music: "part 2" by Dirt Jake Replicas
"Mend" by Dirt Jake Replicas
Backing Tracks: GarageBand Loops
In our third interview ever, we call in for an hour long conversation with FBI SA Ted Halla from the Western Washington Seattle division. An Agent that once sat across the table from Israel Keyes. Finding out how important this case still is to law enforcement and just how much information the FBI is willing to share.
In this episode, we begin to Fact check leads from the case file as we break down whether jurisdictional lines were a part of Israel's plan. Which leads to us discovering a new point on the map to add to the investigation.
With Special Guests:SA Ted Halla, Steven Bernd, and Amy Alexander
Private Investigator Haydn Dolata
Anonymous Federal Law Enforcement Officer
Peggy from Truth in the Shadow Podcast
Researched, Written, Recorded, Edited, and Produced by Somewhere in the Pines
Patreon Producers:
Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Colleen Sullivan
Rochelle Roberts
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Attar Mann
This is a Studio BOTH/AND collaboration: www.somewhereinthepines.com / bothand.fyi
For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand
For early episodes and more: www.Patreon.com/somewhereinthepines
Resources:
"From the Special Agent in charge" - Richard A. Collodi
Researcher Kim K.
CBS NEWS: FBI reveals new evidence in hopes of identifying unknown victims of serial killer
By Peter Van Sant
March 13, 2021 / 10:05 PM EST / CBS News
FBI Case File
Special Forces Caching Techniques Manual
Montage -
CBSN Live
CBS NEWS
NBC5 - WPTZ
KPTV
Music: "part 2" by Dirt Jake Replicas
"Mend" by Dirt Jake Replicas
Backing Tracks: GarageBand Loops
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a studio both and collaboration. Somewhere in the
Pines is a serial podcast containing adult content, including descriptions
of violence, sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Last time on Somewhere in the Pines, What are the
guns in that bucket? There was already buried in Burlington.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Why did you have the guns buried there?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Okay, here's the Leanuski River. It's a pretty steve drop off.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
The Wenuski River. Cash was in a wooded area just
within city limits, only five hundred yards from his hotel,
in less than one mile from the currier's home. This
wouldn't be the only time Israel gave up every part
of his plan.
Speaker 5 (00:56):
There's a shovel on some two gallons of drain on
of on the road in Eagle River.
Speaker 6 (01:02):
And that was too much.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Doing this by myself, I think, And I'm glad you
know we're gonna do it together the rest of the time.
Speaker 6 (01:12):
I am done.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'm ready to go home.
Speaker 7 (01:26):
In twenty twelve, the last in law enforcement came face
to face with one of this country's most prolific serial killers.
Speaker 6 (01:32):
His name is Israel Keys.
Speaker 8 (01:35):
Investigators say Israel Keys had a so called murder kit.
He strategically hit a box filled with weapons and tools
near the Windowski River.
Speaker 9 (01:43):
There is an Orange home depot Bookeet.
Speaker 8 (01:46):
Inside would be a gun, weapons of rope, and sip ties.
He always flew somewhere reck to the car and then
drove hundreds, if not one thousand miles. He told investigators
he left the kids in Washington State, Wyoming, and Texas.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
And Land to hide one in are I was in
a whole bunch of states.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
I mean Alaska, Vermont, Washington, Oregon, New York, New Jersey, California, Texas, Illinois, Tennessee.
Speaker 8 (02:09):
Had a cash in Washington because very long, all right,
I was a kid. I was used to doing that.
Speaker 10 (02:18):
I'd find buried traitor and very well, if I can't
find it, I might as well created.
Speaker 7 (02:24):
My name is Hayden Delatta. I am a licensed private
investigator in the state of Oregon. I became an investigator
in twenty seventeen. It's my second career. Ironically, the day
I found out I was pregnant with my daughter was
(02:44):
the first day I went in to a prison for
the first time in Ontario, Oregon. But yeah, the juxtaposition
was just.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
Like it blew my mind that whole day.
Speaker 7 (02:54):
I was like nervous about going in, but also excited
about this like little life growing inside of me.
Speaker 9 (03:00):
You know.
Speaker 7 (03:00):
It was just a it was a crazy day. But
I became an investigator as a second career because I've
always been interested in the criminal justice system and my
mother is a private investigator. So I found that I
spent more time asking my mom about her cases and
(03:20):
her job, and I actually cared about my sales job.
Israel Keys looks like he I was just looking at
his case record. It looks like he had five federal cases,
one in western Washington, eastern Texas, and then three in
the Alaska District courts. You know, knowing you guys are
(03:45):
meeting with an FBI agent, I think whatever. I understand
that you'll be nervous and it's a big deal. But
at the same time, anything that you're going to be
bringing to the table, or the are going to be
bringing to the table, you're going to be helping each
other out. So I feel like it's going to be
a very symbiotic relationship. So what is the name of
(04:09):
the agent that you guys are meeting with?
Speaker 6 (04:13):
So special agent type holla, I don't know if.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
It's the advent of podcasts or kind of like people
that maybe aren't licensed investigators that are doing work or
kind of like a hobby, But I do feel like
that FBI and just detectives and police are having to
rely more on people like you guys, because because they're
(04:39):
overloaded already.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I met Hayden along with their family a few years back.
We were introduced by a mutual friend and instantly found
some common ground while chatting about different musical tastes in
our favorite true crime podcasts. At one point, I thought
Hayden said that she's a lawyer, so I made sure
to remember that because one can never know enough lawyers
right when Dakota and I put the first up so together,
we reached out to a few people for guidance, and
(05:02):
she was one of them. This is when we found
out she's actually a private investigator, not a lawyer. So
she was the first person we decided to call and
ask for help, and we found out that we have
an opportunity to speak with the FBI. We wanted to
know what to expect. Since then, Hayden has been a
continuing resource for us. She would prove instrumental in opening
lines of communication that have been closed off to us
for a long time.
Speaker 11 (05:24):
So yeah, we definitely feel like, you know, we I
think understand that they probably would have talked to us
if there wasn't some sort of like best interest for
them as well. Trying to be as successful as possible
with the interview, and you know, we've got they said,
we have another one that we can schedule in person
before then, before September, So trying to make sure that
doesn't go away by messing up this first interview, right, right,
(05:49):
So we're just really getting started in all of this.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
So walking to the FBI, the.
Speaker 12 (05:53):
Lead investigators kind of moved intimidating, So I think for us,
we really kind of wanted to know if you had
any tips and kind of like just talk about.
Speaker 6 (06:04):
Any ideas if you kind of deal with that to
your work at all.
Speaker 8 (06:07):
Just as you.
Speaker 6 (06:08):
Said his name, I was typing it in.
Speaker 7 (06:10):
It looks like he interviewed Keys back in twenty twelve.
It says SBI special agents Ted Halla and Colleen Sanders
first question Keys in twenty twelve. They have spent eight
years investigating his life in crimes in Washington, searching for
more victims they believe. Ted Halla told CBS News that
he believes Keys killed four victims total in Washington State.
(06:34):
So what that tells me is that Ted Hall is
probably very well versed in the case. He knows what
he's doing, He's interviewed people, He's investigated Israel Keys' life extensively.
My personal opinion is I would go into a meeting
(06:54):
thing that you guys are engaged in the case and
you want to help find more cashes, and you want
to help in any way possible, and that you're willing
to take time and energy out of your own lives
to do it. Because if you guys go in there
saying like, oh, here are these huge nuggets of information,
likely he's already investigated and found all of that stuff
(07:18):
out that FDI they have resources like behavioral analysis or
of analysts, sorry, and like FBI profilers that once knowing
about Israel Keys and what he's like, they're going to
be looking into his past and trying to find those patterns.
(07:39):
I don't know what to extend they have or how
many how much resources they really have invested, but I
think like the first step for me, if I was
meeting with an FBI Special Agent is to explain your
interest in finding the cases and that you're willing to
(08:00):
set aside a lot of time and energy that you know,
once you find something like that, you would never interfere
or touch it. You just want to take a picture
and plug in a GPS location so that you can
share with the FBI like you want to work in
tandem with them. And then secondly, I think what's really
(08:23):
important in these kind of cases would be sharing of discovery.
And that's the information because at this point you guys
are kind of becoming amateur investigators.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
And what I do.
Speaker 7 (08:38):
Before any investigation of any case is I read all discovery,
all the information that's available available for a case. It's
you want to absorb yourself in everything and know everything
about whether it's Israel Keys or the police reports or
people interviewed. And are you bringing what are you bringing
(09:02):
to the table in terms of information or is that
something you can discuss.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
In our third interview ever, we call in for an
hour long conversation with FBI Special Agent Ted Halla from
Western Washington Seattle Division, an agent that once sat across
the table from Israel Keys, finding out how important this
case still is to law enforcement and just how much
information the FBI is willing to share. In this episode,
(09:35):
we begin to fact check leads from the case file
as we break down whether jurisdictional lines were a part
of Israel's plan, which leads us to discovering a new
confirmed point on the map to add to the investigation.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I'm Dakota and I'm Joshua. Welcome to Somewhere in the Pines.
Episode five, Western.
Speaker 9 (09:52):
Washington shout fun So you were not you?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah? Check check.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
August fourteenth interview a Special Agent Ted Holler.
Speaker 8 (10:47):
Hello, this is a kid with Paul Laurie. Hey kid, okay,
and Amy's here with me. So I think all five
participants are here, and I think I guess we can
get started.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Cool, all right, awesome.
Speaker 8 (11:02):
So I assume you're recording this.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yes, we are recording.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
That's okay, right, okay.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a podcast, right, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
FBI's Western Washington Division. A quote from the Special Agent
in charge, Richard A.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
Claudi.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
The FBI has a worldwide presence, but we know the
FBI that matters the most is the one near you.
FBI Seattle is your FBI field office serving the citizens
of Washington since nineteen fourteen. We are located in ten
locations throughout the state, ready to assist you local industries
and law enforcement agencies before and when the threat appears.
(11:42):
We are not agents flying in from DC like you
might see on television and in the movies. We are
your neighbors living in the communities we serve. We are agents,
intelligence analysts, and professional staff with a variety of specialties.
Safe communities are important to us, not just because we
swore to uphold the law, but also because we live here,
raised families here in called Washington home. First off, do
(12:06):
you want to just let you introduce yourself and maybe
give us a little history on your background with the
FBI and how you got into the case.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
Yeah. So I've been with the FBI for twenty three
years now. I've been assigned to our Seattle Division the
entire time. In two thousand and eight, I transferred over
to our Paul's Bowl Office, and at the time Paul's
Ball Office covered it's at Jefferson and Clown County. A
(12:33):
number of years later they added Mason County, so we
actually covered four counties out here. Our silent crime is
kind of the main thing that we work out here.
We have federal jurisdiction over nine Indian reservations, so when
there's a tribal member that commits a crime on tribal
land and the felony, it'll come to us. So that's
(12:56):
the majority of what we work. We also work, you know,
everything else at the FBI investigates from bank ropperies to
you know, drug investigations, white collar abraud, all that kind
of stuff, but filent crimes the majority of what we
looked at. In regards to the Israel Kings case. Shortly
after Israel Keys was captured down in Texas, the case
(13:18):
agent up in Anchorage reached out to me and said, hey,
we get this destigation going on. It sounds like he's
probably been a serial killer, spent a lot of time
living in Nia Bay, which is one of the reservations
that I cover, and so we were casked to do
as thorough of a background as we could, trying to
interview anyone who had contact with him, and so myself
(13:40):
and my partner at the time began, you know, just
interviewing friends and family and co workers and you know,
people he met on dates. And I'm sure we've interviewed
you know, close to one hundred people or more over
the years in regards to that. And then when he
revealed that there were four Washington's state victims, then that
(14:02):
kind of became our focus and continues to be our
focus is trying to identify the four Washington state victims.
We believe there's two victims in western Washington and two
victims in eastern Washington. My partner and I had a
chance to go meet with Keys in our tour of
twenty twelve. We went up there for a week at
(14:24):
the time that they executed a search warrant on his
Anchorage residence, and then we also got a chance to
sit in with him and chat with him for roughly
forty five minutes to an hour, and he actually was
pretty talkative during that interview session and we learned a
bunch of new things about some of the Washington stuff.
After his death, we remained you know, active in the investigation. Unfortunately,
(14:47):
a lot of the secrets went with him, and we
tried to you know, keep moving the case long as
you know, as much as we can with our workload,
with the hopes that will you know, someday find some
these other victims that are from Washington State. I worked
through the document that you guys sent out and did
(15:09):
some follow up and stuff on that, and so I
think in answering some of those questions, I can be
more honest in a sense if I know that I
can give you information that is for your knowledge but
probably isn't for the podcast per se, keep a caveat
of like hey off podcasts or something like that, and
(15:32):
I can give you some background about, like investigatively what
other things we have going on that are not for
say general public information. But I'm okay sharing it with
you to advance the investigation. You know, let you know, Hey,
this is being covered right now by XYZ, but this
is a question that you'd asked.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, that would be great. Anything that's off the record
or just for us, just let us know and we
can make sure that stuff clipped out. Is it your
belief that therefore Washington victims are all from Washington.
Speaker 8 (16:04):
I don't know that. We just know that there's four
victims that were targeted in Washington State. In talking about
the Washington State victims, he made a comment to us
that he had this uncanny look of grabbing people that
did not go easily missed and He always told us
(16:26):
that a lot of his early victims got little to
no mention in the media are pressed for whatever reason,
So that has made it very difficult for us.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
What value do you think that the cashes.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Have to the case?
Speaker 8 (16:45):
You know, we do believe that he kept souvenirs, and
we believe that if we found the cashes, we may
find items that could identify some of some of the victims.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
And how many cashes do you believe could possibly be
on the Olympic Peninsula.
Speaker 8 (17:08):
I believe there's at least two. He just prior to
his death, we were making arrangements with him for him
to take us to the Port Angelo's Cash. There was
a cash in Port Angelus and we were actually planning
on meeting with him the day after on that Monday.
He killed himself on Sunday. That next day, we were
(17:29):
supposed to meet with him and he was going to
help direct the team down here in Washington to the
Port Angelos cast. There's also comments that he's made about
having to move a cash because of water that we
understood to be out on the peninsula. So my just
gut feeling from all the interviews and all the information,
(17:51):
I believe there's at least two out here on the peninsula.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Has there been any searching done for the cashes after
his suicide or is it just been kind of investigating
leads and what does that look like?
Speaker 8 (18:04):
Yeah, I mean without some sort of clues to help
us focus on an area. I mean, it's you know,
the since there's roughly four thousand square miles and most
of it's pretty rugged, so we would absolutely need some
sort of clues to help us focus in on that.
You know, we participated in a number of different media
(18:27):
things over the years, you know, different shows that have
feature keys and his crimes, and the whole reason for
that is to just keep him in the news and
impression people's minds so that if the cash is found,
hopefully someone recognizes that this could be connected to that
serial killer case, and hopefully they contact local law enforcement
(18:49):
to let them know about it.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
We kind of our own opinion on how many different
kinds of cashes he had, or what's your opinion on
what types of cases he has?
Speaker 8 (19:00):
Yeah, that's good question. I've never thought about like the
types of cashes, I mean the ones that we have recovered,
you know, obviously those are you know, I think falling
in the category of pill cashes, and also you know,
cashes that contain items that will help him with his
crimes and cleaning up his crimes. But I think that's
(19:22):
that's an interesting question that there were you know, different
types of cases, and I'd have to talk to the
case age something anchourage to see what they think about that.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Do you have any idea of what what items he
may have saved? The souvenirs?
Speaker 8 (19:40):
We don't be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there's
stuff like I ds and things like that, jewelry. Yeah,
I try to stay an open mind. I think it
could be almost anything.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Is your claim to have blown up a lock of
a forest ser of escape when he was like fourteen
in Colville? Has this ever been located or followed up on.
Speaker 8 (20:08):
No, we haven't done much with the Colville stuff. Okay,
some of it is, you know, resource priorities. This particular
office here is very, very busy, and so we were
trying to focus on the stuff locally at the time.
(20:28):
We believe this Washington victims were most likely killed in
two thousand and five and two thousand and six, and
a lot of our focus has been on that time
frame versus some of the you know, I think it's
good to understand his upbringing and time when he was
in Colville and stuff like that, But our focus has
definitely been on the time periods where we think the
crimes occurred.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I have a question about the Blake Falls Reservoir cash
when it was recovered the FBI. In the in the
case file, it talks about kt being spray painted on
the on the rock slab, and on the and on
the road and on a telephone pole. Is that something
that the FBI spray painted as markers or is that
(21:12):
something that they believe Israel Keys left.
Speaker 8 (21:17):
Uh, you know, I hadn't seen that before until I
saw the packet shoot forward it. So I did a
little digging on that, and yes, that is something that
our evidence response team left. And that's a common technique
for us when we recover something where potentially down the
road at trial, which sometimes it's two, three, four years
down the road, we may have to go back to
(21:39):
that area. So sometimes we'll you know, pound at rod
into the ground to help us, you know, locate a
specific point. In this case, they marked it with spray
paint on you know, items that likely a couple of
years down the road are still going to be there.
So yeah, that was something that they did mark that
area in case we had to come back to it
(21:59):
down the road for trial or something like that.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Right, maybe we just jumped to the document that we
sent you then and kind of go over those those
items really quick, since it sounds like you were able
to look through that before we started talking.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
This Military Cashing Manual has a significant amount of markers
that it seems like he may have used. You know,
I think that if you you probably have the list
in front of you, colverts, the power line, right of way,
you know, sharp bends and roads, sharp bends and rivers,
stuff like that. And we just didn't know if that
(22:35):
was ever you know, put together by anyone else.
Speaker 8 (22:41):
You know, I don't think we've ever looked at that,
and I think, but I do think it's something that
makes total sense for him to have used. If he
was exposed to that training in that handbook, I totally
would winged out for a second that he didn't use
some of those techniques.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Should we actually call these things in as a tip
or is this just submitting them to you as we
have so far is enough for.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
That, did you?
Speaker 8 (23:06):
I mean, you can you can just you know, reached
directly out to us with the information and we will
go into a report that I'll end up in the
case file for for follow up.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Okay, great.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Do you do you think that when you guys were
actually interrogating him that he was basically truthful or was
he kind of back and forth? What was your opinion
on him being truthful? Law enforcement?
Speaker 8 (23:35):
So that's a great question. And I've listened to our
interviews with him numerous times. I mean some of the
interviews I've listened to at least half a dozen in
a long time. And I think that the majority of
the time, especially when he is free, he's just talking freely.
(23:56):
I think he's being very honest. The times were you
see it change. And I think he was a terrible liar,
and I think he kind of hinted that he was
a bad liar. When he is being interrogated and kind
of pushed into a corner, I think he would make
(24:17):
false statements to move on. He did not like that
at all. And I think the perfect example is when
they pushed him on the New York victim that we
identified from his computer but when you listen to the
interviews where they are confronting him about finding her name
(24:37):
on the computer, which her name should have never been
on his computer, he gets very defensive and he's in
a denial mode. But it seems very clear to all
of us investigators that he's lying to us, like we've
hit a mark on him, and that we feel pretty
strong that she is one of his victims because of
(24:58):
how he reacted to us when we kind of cornered
about that, And so I don't think he's being truthful
when he does that. You know, he had nothing to
do with Earth.
Speaker 9 (25:06):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (25:06):
I think it's very evident when you listen to that
those interviews when he's being pressed on that, that he
gets really uncomfortable when we try to push him on something.
And by contrast, when you look at when he's giving
us information about the couriers or you know, you know,
some of the other victims, it's a completely different type
of narrative in just free talking, which I think we
(25:30):
can find to be very truthful.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Just moving on to the to the number three of
the bucket leads portion.
Speaker 8 (25:40):
Almost really interesting. The information that you guys had on
the bucket lid need something different and not common. I
would love to know more about, like this particular bucket
if you have a manufacturer and you know you can
see code and stuff like that. Except would like to
know more about that. I've never focused on, you know,
(26:04):
the bucket that close, especially the lid, So I am
very curious to know more about that and what makes
that unique, because that could be a good lead to
follow up on.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Do you think that the FBI or does the FBI
have his receipts from the Maca tribe or from from
his company or do they can they get them still
if they don't have them.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
We do not have the receipts from the Macaw tribe.
As far as like things that his department would have purchased,
so that he would have purchased for his department. I
can try to find out if they still exist. We'd
be talking well over twenty years, so that, you know, unlikely,
but we can definitely pursue that. We do have credit
(26:51):
carve receipts from the time period that he was working
out here on the peninsula, and I know there's purchases
from home people and stuff like that on there, but
they only give us a total. We don't have itemized
type of seats. Just we've got creditcardy teap that he
you know, spend forty four dollars at home people have
a good day. So that's the extent of the detail
(27:13):
that we would be able to look at in regards
to those purchases. We can definitely reach out to the
tribe and see if, by some small chance, they've got
records that far back, but that's a tall task in
the sense that how many years ago it's been.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, and I'll send you the Skew number just in
case that will help it all.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
It'd be great. Yeah, you get to know if you
looked in to see what the distribution of that lid was,
I mean it was it's something that Home Depot carried,
or something that was on Amazon at the time or
anything like that.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
It's from home Depot. It's the sealable bucket lid that
goes along with the home Depot bucket.
Speaker 8 (27:53):
Think. I think the work you guys did on the
bucket lids is very intriguing and there's there's I think
potential there of maybe using that to kind of generate
some leads. Again, the thing that you know, as each
year goes by trying to get records becomes harder and harder.
(28:17):
So that's always something that's going to just make things
more challenging as we move forward. You know, companies and
they just don't keep records that long, So as we
go forward, it's going to be harder to reach back
for some of those old paper records that you know
might have helped us out.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
You know, ten fifteen years ago, if you had unlimited
resources to search for a cash how would you start
and where would you search?
Speaker 8 (28:42):
I think the I think the chances of law enforcement
being able to go blanket an area without some sort
of information to focus us on an area. I really
think it's going to be someone from the public that
just stumbles across it eventually. Really is just being able
to find evidence that can point us towards who these
(29:06):
victims are, and just having that evidence not to be
campered with that it's going to throw into questions to
the lenity of it. I mean, people will do some
really weird stuff for fifteen minutes of game. So you know,
when someone claims to have found something dealing with the
real keys, you always have to look at it in
that light. You know that I'll the information to see
(29:26):
if it's it's you know.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Truthful or not the story that I sent from Reddit,
And I know this is probably not the best lead,
but I'm just curious. So somebody found, somebody claims to
have found this cash in their backyard, and I'm just wondering,
first of all, that has ever gotten back to the FBI,
or if that's not really an actual lead, or I
have nothing to do with his real keies, but mainly
(29:49):
just wondering, is there a chance that buckets have been
found and they're not getting back to the FBI, or
and is the only way that it really gets back
is by you guys putting out information and letting people
know that they're aware, or jurisdictions like different small police
departments may aware the Reddit bucket we are describing as
a tip that was written in the comment section of
(30:09):
an article on a website called Jezebel. Essentially, what happens
is a family moves into a property in upstate New
York or the New England area that abuts a state
or national forest. The family befriends some neighbors who also
had kids, and one day, while the neighbor was watching
the kids, she went to go check on them as
they were playing outside. She found that they, along with
the dog, had uncovered a sealed big box store bucket
(30:31):
that was buried underground by the edge of the woods.
The cops were called and showed up about two hours
later and pulled the top off the bucket. They claimed
to have found duct tape, zip ties, safety goggles like
you would wear using a saw or in a chemistry lab,
a gun scope, a large hunting knife, a dark haired wig,
and a bundle of something soft wrapped in black plastic.
(30:52):
The winness goes on to say that all the police
in a twenty mile radius arrived, local cops, sheriff deputies,
and highway patrol. They tape off the entire back part
of the yard and some distance into the woods. No
one was telling the family anything and wouldn't let them
back in the house until late that night, with the
police escort and cops roaming around both properties. The next day,
(31:12):
even more law enforcement appears, including the FBI. The witnesses,
including the kids, are questioned by federal agents when they
learned that the family had just recently moved in and
that the house stood vacant for several years before they
bought it. They were then asked if they noticed any
disturbed round around the property other than the bucket, especially
in any of the outbuildings.
Speaker 8 (31:33):
It's very possible that cashes have been found and information
has not gone back to us. It's very possible for
a million different reasons on why they may not get
back to us, but it's very possible this lead that
you guys talked about from Reddit, there was nothing that
(31:53):
I could look up to try to search the sea
if this is something that you know is that we've
received information on, so I would need more specifics to
try to search our system to see if this is
potentially a kit that you know we may have received.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Since getting this reply from Special Agent Halla, we reached
out to the person who submitted this story to hopefully
receive some connecting information. Dakota and I also spoke with
Kim Kay, a researcher from the podcast True Crime Bullshit.
She has been looking into this tip as well. We're
going to do our best to get in contact with
the person who made the post. We've been unsuccessful so far,
but we aren't crossing up the list until we can
get more information. But for now, it sounds like until
(32:31):
we have something to connect it to. We'll have to
put this in the Wait and Sea bucket. So the
next thing on the Lake Paris Bernisconi Bay. This next
tip is from the case file. A man claims that
he happened to see Israel at Lake Paris State Recreation Area,
specifically Bernisconi Bay. He said that while he was fishing,
Israel approached him with a bucket and a shovel and
(32:52):
was acting odd. Eventually, the man's son joins them and
Israel loses interest. The man goes on to say that
later he saw Israel at her remote campground nearby. Now
he wasn't exactly sure what date this happened, so he
responded back with two dates, either March twelfth or March nineteenth,
twenty eleven. The FBI wrote in the case file that
they looked into March twelfth and it could not be
(33:14):
Israel if that was the day, But there was no
information on March nineteenth, so we wanted to check that
date with Special Agent Haula. But he did state two dates.
One was the twelfth and one was the nineteenth. They
follow up on the twelfth. Was there any follow up
on the nineteenth?
Speaker 8 (33:29):
Yeah, I believe there was follow up on that, and
it looks like he was in Anchorage at the time,
so they could feel pre confident he was not in
California during that time period.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Excellent kylines.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, so we noticed that the Blake Falls cash and
the Manooski River cash were placed within one tenth of
a mile of a county line. What jurisdictional complications could
arise from something being so close to a county line
and him possibly cross crossing county and state lines. What
kind of problems does that cause for you?
Speaker 8 (34:03):
I don't know if that was an issue at all
for us. Yeah, I don't think there's there were issues
involved with.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
With that, you know, like such like in the case
of Deborah Feldman, It's it's possible that she was abducted
from New Jersey, taken too, you know, across multiple county
lines to New York. You know, on the commission of
a crime, he's crossing multiple state lines. That doesn't hinder
the investigation.
Speaker 8 (34:31):
Well from a federal standpoint, since you know, potentially if
this was something that you know, we were pursuing for
charging down the road, if she was alive and such.
The conspiracy started an Anchorage or Alaska which we would
have argued because he, you know, we would have argued,
he flew down to the lower forty eight for purposes
(34:52):
of committing these crimes. So the interstate asas has already
established once you leave Anchorage. Interesting, Okay, so the times
that occurred in Anchorage might be a little tricker for
federal prosecution, depending on the execut details of them. But
any time he's leaving his home state to commit these crimes,
(35:14):
like in the case of the couriers, there's a number
of federal violations that would apply. It would give us
federal jurisdiction if we were able to charge that.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
And he's still live today, and so that's a problem
that would maybe be more for state police or local police.
Speaker 8 (35:36):
Potentially. I don't know that he was familiar enough with
state laws to I don't know if that went into
his reasoning at abviously a good question on you know,
if he has these cashes that closed the counting lines
on purpose or if it's coincidents.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, I think the one thing we noticed that was
actually next to like with an attent of a mile
of a sign that that stated the county line. So
it wasn't more of like this invisible line, so it's
more of a seemed like a potential, more of a
marker to actually have a.
Speaker 10 (36:19):
Want to about the bucket in Texas. No, but if
I get close to where it's at, which is there's not.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
A tracking device on. I have a pretty good memory.
I could pretty good in cash places. I have a
good memory when I need to.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
If we came close to where one was, would you tell.
Speaker 9 (36:51):
Us I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I don't know what you mean. If we're able to
tell you an area that we're pretty sure there's one,
would you tell us, Well.
Speaker 10 (37:02):
I assume you know I've been kind of all over
the place when I do go places.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I don't know what you considered clothes like state No, No,
I mean.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Keys was interrupted there, but what he said was state
and county. Israel always seemed to be skirting county and
state lines when he was up to no good. His
caches appear to be within a very short distance of
boundary lines. He, in the case of the Couriers, was
engaged in severe crimes just across the Burlington, Essex border,
and in the case of Deborah Feldman, it is believed
(37:37):
he crossed multiple state lines. Although his understanding of jurisdictional
procedure may be less than complete. He seems to have
thought moving across boundary or jurisdictional lines would somehow benefit him,
causing confusion and disorder for law enforcement. Another source in
federal law enforcement, we were able to interview Expands on
this concept. To be candid on the topic, they chose
(37:58):
to remain anonymous. They told us jurisdictional success leans heavily
on personal relationships between law enforcement officers, officer to officer,
agency to agency. Having multiple organizations work on something could
confuse the case. Putting pieces together between states or even
within states. They go on to say, my reporting system
(38:21):
does not connect to the state reporting system. States and
the federal government don't talk or work very well together.
For example, if I ever wrote a DUI, it's a
five hundred and fifty dollars fine, and it doesn't even
go on your driving record. The systems just don't go together.
I asked them if a cash has found four or
five feet over a city or county line, who would
(38:42):
claim jurisdiction? They answered, if someone from the city found
that cash, they might not even mention it to someone
from the county. Then the county wouldn't know anything about
it because someone from the city found it and didn't
put it into a linked system, or there wasn't a
person to see the connection of the two crimes. And
the more distance between those crimes, the harder it is
(39:03):
to make that connection. The more jurisdictions, the more agencies,
It's all about distance. Anytime you create space, you get
an advantage. It's all about the people who work at
these agencies to build relationships. Random crimes are always the
hardest to solve.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Realizing that we also need to build relationships with people
from the Peninsula, We've been in contact with another podcaster
and bucket hunting enthusiasts from Squim, Washington. Her name is Peggy.
Her show Truth in the Shadow covered the case of
Lindsay Baum, a ten year old girl that went missing
from Mcleary, Washington, on June twenty six, two thousand and nine,
and whose skull was later discovered in Ellensburg, Washington, a
(39:39):
separate jurisdiction in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 8 (39:42):
Is in state.
Speaker 13 (39:43):
He hovers around reservation and then in National Forest and
then because like what happens with all these things too,
and what happened like in Lakey's case is it became
this jurisdictional nightmare.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
She disappeared from the.
Speaker 8 (39:56):
Town of mc McCleary police departments, not like that went to.
Speaker 13 (40:00):
Gray's Harbor, but then like there was some evidence maybe found,
they're not sure if it's tied to her in Mason County.
So now we have another county.
Speaker 8 (40:10):
Who stills found in Ellensburgh, but it's.
Speaker 13 (40:12):
Up on fish and wildlife, so it's state. It's just
like this jurisdictional nightmare. And anytime that jurisdictions are trying
to like.
Speaker 9 (40:24):
Talk to each other.
Speaker 13 (40:25):
And depending on how well they get along, also some
of that information could be lost. And so I kind
of always wondered with him, especially if he understood that,
and that was something that he used to just make
it a big mess, because he was talking about in
the interviews about like how come the Feds weren't stepping
in for certain things, and I thought, well, that's an
(40:46):
interesting question. Why would the feds step in unless you're
on federal land, meaning that you're in the park.
Speaker 6 (40:55):
That's another jurisdiction.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, that's something we're super curious about. We're actually today
we're working an episode about jurisdiction.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
So yeah, that's why we got real quiet just let
you talk.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Along with interviewing law enforcement extensively for Lindsay's case, learning
a lot about how local agencies interacted with each other.
Peggy's prior career involved economic development for Clailam County, the
same jurisdiction that Special Agent Hollo covers in the same
area that we were searching on the peninsula. Can I
just ask one more question about jurisdiction, so you know,
we're not really sure if he understood that jurisdiction was
(41:35):
like a serious thing or not. And it seems like
the FBI didn't think it was a concern because they
felt they were able to get federal jurisdiction over almost
the entire case. If you if you have any more
to say about jurisdiction and what you think like if so, say,
if something was hidden just you know, one hundred yards
or something outside of a county line or something like that,
(41:57):
is the jurisdictional problems that would occur really just based
upon the size of the police department in the location,
or is there anything else that of note that you
think is really important to think about.
Speaker 13 (42:07):
I think like jurisdiction is such a funny thing because
you can, so police department can allow somebody else to
have jurisdiction in usually centual juris I'm not sure central
jurisdiction and all of those things where because usually the
county is involved because they have more resources than beds.
Speaker 6 (42:27):
Normally do on the ground.
Speaker 13 (42:31):
But the relationship between the law enforcement agencies is pretty
important also.
Speaker 6 (42:38):
So like if.
Speaker 13 (42:41):
Especially reservation those are you know, sovereign entities, and so
they don't need to work with the counties whatsoever if
they don't want to.
Speaker 8 (42:51):
Of like, now everybody works together.
Speaker 13 (42:54):
Pretty well, but like whether or not the jurisdiction laws
to give up information, I suppose help with it.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
And yeah, do you kind of think then that him
operating closer to reservations would kind of tie into that
where he would have materials close to the reservation or anything.
And you think, does that make sense to you that
that would be a logical way to kind of plan
a crime.
Speaker 13 (43:18):
Then well, especially because he worked for the tribe, that
I would think that the reason he would want that
separation is because he knows he has a certain amount
of protection by living on the reservation and so.
Speaker 8 (43:32):
Therefore, like he can kind of.
Speaker 13 (43:35):
I don't know, be protected by that jurisdictional part as
long as he's not doing it on the reservation. So
it would make sense to me that he would take
it off the reservation, even if it's only.
Speaker 6 (43:48):
Like a little ways off.
Speaker 13 (43:51):
But there again, I could also argue that he would
put something around there becomes jurisdictionally. There's very little law
enforcement out there. I guess we could argue about points
for it.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Any clues or bones you can throw us to keep
us busy until that time talk to us. I have been
puzzled about your You seem an adamant that there's no
possible federal nexus to the Washington cases.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
And I'm just.
Speaker 5 (44:21):
Shocked because knowing the Peninsula like we do, there's so
much federal land out there.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Especially with the National forest, national parks, and you.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Know, my understanding then would be that nothing's happened on
those type of lands.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Are we correct and understanding that or no, I just didn't.
Speaker 10 (44:37):
I didn't know that would qualify it as a federal crime.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
If it's a national park or.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
Something National park or National forest, we could have jurisdiction
on a felony.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
So see, that's all this stuff is the legal details.
Speaker 8 (44:52):
All these can new to me, but that's good to know.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
But that's possibility.
Speaker 8 (44:58):
Okay, Washington is I don't even remember. I mean, I
know all the places I went, and I know that
they are all public areas, but I don't know which
ones were state, which.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Ones are federal. I don't know.
Speaker 8 (45:16):
I never really.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Paid that much attention. Become important.
Speaker 8 (45:21):
There's a lot of federal land up and there's there's
lots of other ways for it to be federals, right,
that's an easy way, that's easy to do.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
So it's clear that the FBI believes that jurisdiction would
not have been an issue for their investigation. They're able
to claim the conspiracy to commit murder as Israel leaves
his home state of Alaska. The other federal officer that
we contacted has a different perspective. Although they are a
federal officer, they deal more in smaller communities and see
(45:49):
the dysfunction that can occur when a crime is handled
by multiple agencies. It really depends on the agencies building
relationships and communicating.
Speaker 8 (45:57):
Well.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Then we have Peggy inside into the relationship between the
counties that we're searching. Gives us an insider's perspective, and
our knowledge of how law enforcement functions on the reservations
adds another layer to consider. So where does that leave us?
Although county lines have a potential to cause some jurisdictional
confusion or possibly a cache falling through the cracks, so
(46:18):
to speak, we have no way of knowing whether or
not keys factored in county lines or other boundary signs
when he chose his locations. He could have used a
signed county line as a landmark and had no thought
of what it would mean for law enforcement if ever discovered,
simply just an easy reference point on a map, especially
since it's a strategy taken directly from the caching manual quote.
(46:41):
Following objects, when available, are sometimes ideal reference points. Small
unfrequented bridges and dams, boundary markers, mile markers, culverts along
unfrequented roads, a geodetic survey marker, battle monuments, and wayside shrines.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
As new cashes are discovered, we can look to the
new locations to see if they share a similar distance
from the respective county line sign or the opposite can
be true. We may never see a boundary sign used again,
and it could just be a coincidence. This is why
any new spot on the map can really help, because
then we can cross reference it to the other known
locations and hopefully find patterns in his behavior. What is
(47:19):
clear is that the FBI and Special Agent Ted Hollis
specifically believe that their best path to a cache is
through the public. They rightfully so, are focused on finding
the victims that remain unnamed, so the resources they have
available have to be focused more on the time periods
when they believe he was most active. For now, we
are able to set two potential caches on the back burner,
(47:40):
the reddit bucket and the Lake Paris sighting. There is
of course a chance either one can be brought back
into the picture if more information is received, like a
location or confirmation from another agency on the reddit bucket
or a confirmed date for the Lake Paris sighting. But
what should be noticed is the FBI wasn't aware of
the reddit bucket, so it's a good example of a
way that we can help move the case forward. The
(48:00):
FBI believes there's a chance that someone already stumbled across
the cash and it just hasn't made its way back
to them, so that would be another goal for us.
Continue to fact check every lead that we get and
verify it with them so they can be the ones
to bet the information completely. Until more information is gathered,
we will not use either of these tips in our research,
which leads us to another question. We ask Special Agent
(48:21):
Hala that will bring a new cash into the picture.
Now for the first time, we're hearing that the FBI
believes this cash is actually tied to Israel. The next
tip that was the Olympic Hot Springs cash. There was
a cash with a bag. It had basically a rape
kit in the cash.
Speaker 8 (48:38):
With a history on that. When that came in, we
followed that one up very seriously. I really liked the
timeframe of it. It fits very nicely into when we
know that case was active on the peninsula and it
balled in that two thousand and five two thousand and
six times period, which is I think the key period
(48:59):
for him. It's it's from my opinion that I think
it's very likely that that cash was connected to keys,
but we will never know for sure without you know,
finding those items. But I think it's very consistent in
time period and everything.
Speaker 6 (49:14):
That I think it's very likely it could.
Speaker 8 (49:16):
Have been one of those guys.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Next time on Somewhere in the Pines. We tune up
the bikes, dust off the rain gear, and cycle over
twenty miles to the location of the Olympic Hot Springs.
Cash as private investigator Hayden Delata helps us connect with
Josh Hallmark and the True Crime Bullshit Research Team.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Somewhere in the Pines.
One simple way for you to join the search is
to rate and review the show, and don't forget to
subscribe and tell a friend. For photos of the locations
we visit, go to Somewhere in the Pines dot com
forward slash photos for ad free episodes and behind the
scenes content. Join us on Patreon at patreon dot com
forward slash Somewhere in the Pines. We'd also like to
(50:17):
give a very special thank you to our Patreon producers
Heather Hort and Whedon, Nicole Guzman, Colleen Sullivan, Rochelle Roberts,
Lynley Tuschoff, and Notturman.
Speaker 8 (51:07):
Shit me an email and we'll try to work comping
out before the end of the month in person.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
That sounds great. Thank you so much, by I thank you,
thank that.
Speaker 8 (51:17):
Bye mm hmm.
Speaker 9 (51:23):
Ok.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Nice work.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
Dude, yeah, good job. Holy fuck.
This is a studio both and collaboration. Somewhere in the
Pines is a serial podcast containing adult content, including descriptions
of violence, sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Last time on Somewhere in the Pines, What are the
guns in that bucket? There was already buried in Burlington.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Why did you have the guns buried there?
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Okay, here's the Leanuski River. It's a pretty steve drop off.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
The Wenuski River. Cash was in a wooded area just
within city limits, only five hundred yards from his hotel,
in less than one mile from the currier's home. This
wouldn't be the only time Israel gave up every part
of his plan.
Speaker 5 (00:56):
There's a shovel on some two gallons of drain on
of on the road in Eagle River.
Speaker 6 (01:02):
And that was too much.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Doing this by myself, I think, And I'm glad you
know we're gonna do it together the rest of the time.
Speaker 6 (01:12):
I am done.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
I'm ready to go home.
Speaker 7 (01:26):
In twenty twelve, the last in law enforcement came face
to face with one of this country's most prolific serial killers.
Speaker 6 (01:32):
His name is Israel Keys.
Speaker 8 (01:35):
Investigators say Israel Keys had a so called murder kit.
He strategically hit a box filled with weapons and tools
near the Windowski River.
Speaker 9 (01:43):
There is an Orange home depot Bookeet.
Speaker 8 (01:46):
Inside would be a gun, weapons of rope, and sip ties.
He always flew somewhere reck to the car and then
drove hundreds, if not one thousand miles. He told investigators
he left the kids in Washington State, Wyoming, and Texas.
Speaker 6 (02:00):
And Land to hide one in are I was in
a whole bunch of states.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
I mean Alaska, Vermont, Washington, Oregon, New York, New Jersey, California, Texas, Illinois, Tennessee.
Speaker 8 (02:09):
Had a cash in Washington because very long, all right,
I was a kid. I was used to doing that.
Speaker 10 (02:18):
I'd find buried traitor and very well, if I can't
find it, I might as well created.
Speaker 7 (02:24):
My name is Hayden Delatta. I am a licensed private
investigator in the state of Oregon. I became an investigator
in twenty seventeen. It's my second career. Ironically, the day
I found out I was pregnant with my daughter was
(02:44):
the first day I went in to a prison for
the first time in Ontario, Oregon. But yeah, the juxtaposition
was just.
Speaker 6 (02:52):
Like it blew my mind that whole day.
Speaker 7 (02:54):
I was like nervous about going in, but also excited
about this like little life growing inside of me.
Speaker 9 (03:00):
You know.
Speaker 7 (03:00):
It was just a it was a crazy day. But
I became an investigator as a second career because I've
always been interested in the criminal justice system and my
mother is a private investigator. So I found that I
spent more time asking my mom about her cases and
(03:20):
her job, and I actually cared about my sales job.
Israel Keys looks like he I was just looking at
his case record. It looks like he had five federal cases,
one in western Washington, eastern Texas, and then three in
the Alaska District courts. You know, knowing you guys are
(03:45):
meeting with an FBI agent, I think whatever. I understand
that you'll be nervous and it's a big deal. But
at the same time, anything that you're going to be
bringing to the table, or the are going to be
bringing to the table, you're going to be helping each
other out. So I feel like it's going to be
a very symbiotic relationship. So what is the name of
(04:09):
the agent that you guys are meeting with?
Speaker 6 (04:13):
So special agent type holla, I don't know if.
Speaker 7 (04:16):
It's the advent of podcasts or kind of like people
that maybe aren't licensed investigators that are doing work or
kind of like a hobby, But I do feel like
that FBI and just detectives and police are having to
rely more on people like you guys, because because they're
(04:39):
overloaded already.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I met Hayden along with their family a few years back.
We were introduced by a mutual friend and instantly found
some common ground while chatting about different musical tastes in
our favorite true crime podcasts. At one point, I thought
Hayden said that she's a lawyer, so I made sure
to remember that because one can never know enough lawyers
right when Dakota and I put the first up so together,
we reached out to a few people for guidance, and
(05:02):
she was one of them. This is when we found
out she's actually a private investigator, not a lawyer. So
she was the first person we decided to call and
ask for help, and we found out that we have
an opportunity to speak with the FBI. We wanted to
know what to expect. Since then, Hayden has been a
continuing resource for us. She would prove instrumental in opening
lines of communication that have been closed off to us
for a long time.
Speaker 11 (05:24):
So yeah, we definitely feel like, you know, we I
think understand that they probably would have talked to us
if there wasn't some sort of like best interest for
them as well. Trying to be as successful as possible
with the interview, and you know, we've got they said,
we have another one that we can schedule in person
before then, before September, So trying to make sure that
doesn't go away by messing up this first interview, right, right,
(05:49):
So we're just really getting started in all of this.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
So walking to the FBI, the.
Speaker 12 (05:53):
Lead investigators kind of moved intimidating, So I think for us,
we really kind of wanted to know if you had
any tips and kind of like just talk about.
Speaker 6 (06:04):
Any ideas if you kind of deal with that to
your work at all.
Speaker 8 (06:07):
Just as you.
Speaker 6 (06:08):
Said his name, I was typing it in.
Speaker 7 (06:10):
It looks like he interviewed Keys back in twenty twelve.
It says SBI special agents Ted Halla and Colleen Sanders
first question Keys in twenty twelve. They have spent eight
years investigating his life in crimes in Washington, searching for
more victims they believe. Ted Halla told CBS News that
he believes Keys killed four victims total in Washington State.
(06:34):
So what that tells me is that Ted Hall is
probably very well versed in the case. He knows what
he's doing, He's interviewed people, He's investigated Israel Keys' life extensively.
My personal opinion is I would go into a meeting
(06:54):
thing that you guys are engaged in the case and
you want to help find more cashes, and you want
to help in any way possible, and that you're willing
to take time and energy out of your own lives
to do it. Because if you guys go in there
saying like, oh, here are these huge nuggets of information,
likely he's already investigated and found all of that stuff
(07:18):
out that FDI they have resources like behavioral analysis or
of analysts, sorry, and like FBI profilers that once knowing
about Israel Keys and what he's like, they're going to
be looking into his past and trying to find those patterns.
(07:39):
I don't know what to extend they have or how
many how much resources they really have invested, but I
think like the first step for me, if I was
meeting with an FBI Special Agent is to explain your
interest in finding the cases and that you're willing to
(08:00):
set aside a lot of time and energy that you know,
once you find something like that, you would never interfere
or touch it. You just want to take a picture
and plug in a GPS location so that you can
share with the FBI like you want to work in
tandem with them. And then secondly, I think what's really
(08:23):
important in these kind of cases would be sharing of discovery.
And that's the information because at this point you guys
are kind of becoming amateur investigators.
Speaker 6 (08:37):
And what I do.
Speaker 7 (08:38):
Before any investigation of any case is I read all discovery,
all the information that's available available for a case. It's
you want to absorb yourself in everything and know everything
about whether it's Israel Keys or the police reports or
people interviewed. And are you bringing what are you bringing
(09:02):
to the table in terms of information or is that
something you can discuss.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
In our third interview ever, we call in for an
hour long conversation with FBI Special Agent Ted Halla from
Western Washington Seattle Division, an agent that once sat across
the table from Israel Keys, finding out how important this
case still is to law enforcement and just how much
information the FBI is willing to share. In this episode,
(09:35):
we begin to fact check leads from the case file
as we break down whether jurisdictional lines were a part
of Israel's plan, which leads us to discovering a new
confirmed point on the map to add to the investigation.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I'm Dakota and I'm Joshua. Welcome to Somewhere in the Pines.
Episode five, Western.
Speaker 9 (09:52):
Washington shout fun So you were not you?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah? Check check.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
August fourteenth interview a Special Agent Ted Holler.
Speaker 8 (10:47):
Hello, this is a kid with Paul Laurie. Hey kid, okay,
and Amy's here with me. So I think all five
participants are here, and I think I guess we can
get started.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Cool, all right, awesome.
Speaker 8 (11:02):
So I assume you're recording this.
Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yes, we are recording.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
That's okay, right, okay.
Speaker 6 (11:09):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a podcast, right, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
FBI's Western Washington Division. A quote from the Special Agent
in charge, Richard A.
Speaker 6 (11:19):
Claudi.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
The FBI has a worldwide presence, but we know the
FBI that matters the most is the one near you.
FBI Seattle is your FBI field office serving the citizens
of Washington since nineteen fourteen. We are located in ten
locations throughout the state, ready to assist you local industries
and law enforcement agencies before and when the threat appears.
(11:42):
We are not agents flying in from DC like you
might see on television and in the movies. We are
your neighbors living in the communities we serve. We are agents,
intelligence analysts, and professional staff with a variety of specialties.
Safe communities are important to us, not just because we
swore to uphold the law, but also because we live here,
raised families here in called Washington home. First off, do
(12:06):
you want to just let you introduce yourself and maybe
give us a little history on your background with the
FBI and how you got into the case.
Speaker 8 (12:13):
Yeah. So I've been with the FBI for twenty three
years now. I've been assigned to our Seattle Division the
entire time. In two thousand and eight, I transferred over
to our Paul's Bowl Office, and at the time Paul's
Ball Office covered it's at Jefferson and Clown County. A
(12:33):
number of years later they added Mason County, so we
actually covered four counties out here. Our silent crime is
kind of the main thing that we work out here.
We have federal jurisdiction over nine Indian reservations, so when
there's a tribal member that commits a crime on tribal
land and the felony, it'll come to us. So that's
(12:56):
the majority of what we work. We also work, you know,
everything else at the FBI investigates from bank ropperies to
you know, drug investigations, white collar abraud, all that kind
of stuff, but filent crimes the majority of what we
looked at. In regards to the Israel Kings case. Shortly
after Israel Keys was captured down in Texas, the case
(13:18):
agent up in Anchorage reached out to me and said, hey,
we get this destigation going on. It sounds like he's
probably been a serial killer, spent a lot of time
living in Nia Bay, which is one of the reservations
that I cover, and so we were casked to do
as thorough of a background as we could, trying to
interview anyone who had contact with him, and so myself
(13:40):
and my partner at the time began, you know, just
interviewing friends and family and co workers and you know,
people he met on dates. And I'm sure we've interviewed
you know, close to one hundred people or more over
the years in regards to that. And then when he
revealed that there were four Washington's state victims, then that
(14:02):
kind of became our focus and continues to be our
focus is trying to identify the four Washington state victims.
We believe there's two victims in western Washington and two
victims in eastern Washington. My partner and I had a
chance to go meet with Keys in our tour of
twenty twelve. We went up there for a week at
(14:24):
the time that they executed a search warrant on his
Anchorage residence, and then we also got a chance to
sit in with him and chat with him for roughly
forty five minutes to an hour, and he actually was
pretty talkative during that interview session and we learned a
bunch of new things about some of the Washington stuff.
After his death, we remained you know, active in the investigation. Unfortunately,
(14:47):
a lot of the secrets went with him, and we
tried to you know, keep moving the case long as
you know, as much as we can with our workload,
with the hopes that will you know, someday find some
these other victims that are from Washington State. I worked
through the document that you guys sent out and did
(15:09):
some follow up and stuff on that, and so I
think in answering some of those questions, I can be
more honest in a sense if I know that I
can give you information that is for your knowledge but
probably isn't for the podcast per se, keep a caveat
of like hey off podcasts or something like that, and
(15:32):
I can give you some background about, like investigatively what
other things we have going on that are not for
say general public information. But I'm okay sharing it with
you to advance the investigation. You know, let you know, Hey,
this is being covered right now by XYZ, but this
is a question that you'd asked.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Yeah, that would be great. Anything that's off the record
or just for us, just let us know and we
can make sure that stuff clipped out. Is it your
belief that therefore Washington victims are all from Washington.
Speaker 8 (16:04):
I don't know that. We just know that there's four
victims that were targeted in Washington State. In talking about
the Washington State victims, he made a comment to us
that he had this uncanny look of grabbing people that
did not go easily missed and He always told us
(16:26):
that a lot of his early victims got little to
no mention in the media are pressed for whatever reason,
So that has made it very difficult for us.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
What value do you think that the cashes.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Have to the case?
Speaker 8 (16:45):
You know, we do believe that he kept souvenirs, and
we believe that if we found the cashes, we may
find items that could identify some of some of the victims.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
And how many cashes do you believe could possibly be
on the Olympic Peninsula.
Speaker 8 (17:08):
I believe there's at least two. He just prior to
his death, we were making arrangements with him for him
to take us to the Port Angelo's Cash. There was
a cash in Port Angelus and we were actually planning
on meeting with him the day after on that Monday.
He killed himself on Sunday. That next day, we were
(17:29):
supposed to meet with him and he was going to
help direct the team down here in Washington to the
Port Angelos cast. There's also comments that he's made about
having to move a cash because of water that we
understood to be out on the peninsula. So my just
gut feeling from all the interviews and all the information,
(17:51):
I believe there's at least two out here on the peninsula.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Has there been any searching done for the cashes after
his suicide or is it just been kind of investigating
leads and what does that look like?
Speaker 8 (18:04):
Yeah, I mean without some sort of clues to help
us focus on an area. I mean, it's you know,
the since there's roughly four thousand square miles and most
of it's pretty rugged, so we would absolutely need some
sort of clues to help us focus in on that.
You know, we participated in a number of different media
(18:27):
things over the years, you know, different shows that have
feature keys and his crimes, and the whole reason for
that is to just keep him in the news and
impression people's minds so that if the cash is found,
hopefully someone recognizes that this could be connected to that
serial killer case, and hopefully they contact local law enforcement
(18:49):
to let them know about it.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
We kind of our own opinion on how many different
kinds of cashes he had, or what's your opinion on
what types of cases he has?
Speaker 8 (19:00):
Yeah, that's good question. I've never thought about like the
types of cashes, I mean the ones that we have recovered,
you know, obviously those are you know, I think falling
in the category of pill cashes, and also you know,
cashes that contain items that will help him with his
crimes and cleaning up his crimes. But I think that's
(19:22):
that's an interesting question that there were you know, different
types of cases, and I'd have to talk to the
case age something anchourage to see what they think about that.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Do you have any idea of what what items he
may have saved? The souvenirs?
Speaker 8 (19:40):
We don't be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if there's
stuff like I ds and things like that, jewelry. Yeah,
I try to stay an open mind. I think it
could be almost anything.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
Is your claim to have blown up a lock of
a forest ser of escape when he was like fourteen
in Colville? Has this ever been located or followed up on.
Speaker 8 (20:08):
No, we haven't done much with the Colville stuff. Okay,
some of it is, you know, resource priorities. This particular
office here is very, very busy, and so we were
trying to focus on the stuff locally at the time.
(20:28):
We believe this Washington victims were most likely killed in
two thousand and five and two thousand and six, and
a lot of our focus has been on that time
frame versus some of the you know, I think it's
good to understand his upbringing and time when he was
in Colville and stuff like that, But our focus has
definitely been on the time periods where we think the
crimes occurred.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
I have a question about the Blake Falls Reservoir cash
when it was recovered the FBI. In the in the
case file, it talks about kt being spray painted on
the on the rock slab, and on the and on
the road and on a telephone pole. Is that something
that the FBI spray painted as markers or is that
(21:12):
something that they believe Israel Keys left.
Speaker 8 (21:17):
Uh, you know, I hadn't seen that before until I
saw the packet shoot forward it. So I did a
little digging on that, and yes, that is something that
our evidence response team left. And that's a common technique
for us when we recover something where potentially down the
road at trial, which sometimes it's two, three, four years
down the road, we may have to go back to
(21:39):
that area. So sometimes we'll you know, pound at rod
into the ground to help us, you know, locate a
specific point. In this case, they marked it with spray
paint on you know, items that likely a couple of
years down the road are still going to be there.
So yeah, that was something that they did mark that
area in case we had to come back to it
(21:59):
down the road for trial or something like that.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Right, maybe we just jumped to the document that we
sent you then and kind of go over those those
items really quick, since it sounds like you were able
to look through that before we started talking.
Speaker 8 (22:12):
Yeah, that'd be great.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
This Military Cashing Manual has a significant amount of markers
that it seems like he may have used. You know,
I think that if you you probably have the list
in front of you, colverts, the power line, right of way,
you know, sharp bends and roads, sharp bends and rivers,
stuff like that. And we just didn't know if that
(22:35):
was ever you know, put together by anyone else.
Speaker 8 (22:41):
You know, I don't think we've ever looked at that,
and I think, but I do think it's something that
makes total sense for him to have used. If he
was exposed to that training in that handbook, I totally
would winged out for a second that he didn't use
some of those techniques.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Should we actually call these things in as a tip
or is this just submitting them to you as we
have so far is enough for.
Speaker 6 (23:04):
That, did you?
Speaker 8 (23:06):
I mean, you can you can just you know, reached
directly out to us with the information and we will
go into a report that I'll end up in the
case file for for follow up.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
Okay, great.
Speaker 2 (23:21):
Do you do you think that when you guys were
actually interrogating him that he was basically truthful or was
he kind of back and forth? What was your opinion
on him being truthful? Law enforcement?
Speaker 8 (23:35):
So that's a great question. And I've listened to our
interviews with him numerous times. I mean some of the
interviews I've listened to at least half a dozen in
a long time. And I think that the majority of
the time, especially when he is free, he's just talking freely.
(23:56):
I think he's being very honest. The times were you
see it change. And I think he was a terrible liar,
and I think he kind of hinted that he was
a bad liar. When he is being interrogated and kind
of pushed into a corner, I think he would make
(24:17):
false statements to move on. He did not like that
at all. And I think the perfect example is when
they pushed him on the New York victim that we
identified from his computer but when you listen to the
interviews where they are confronting him about finding her name
(24:37):
on the computer, which her name should have never been
on his computer, he gets very defensive and he's in
a denial mode. But it seems very clear to all
of us investigators that he's lying to us, like we've
hit a mark on him, and that we feel pretty
strong that she is one of his victims because of
(24:58):
how he reacted to us when we kind of cornered
about that, And so I don't think he's being truthful
when he does that. You know, he had nothing to
do with Earth.
Speaker 9 (25:06):
Uh.
Speaker 8 (25:06):
I think it's very evident when you listen to that
those interviews when he's being pressed on that, that he
gets really uncomfortable when we try to push him on something.
And by contrast, when you look at when he's giving
us information about the couriers or you know, you know,
some of the other victims, it's a completely different type
of narrative in just free talking, which I think we
(25:30):
can find to be very truthful.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Just moving on to the to the number three of
the bucket leads portion.
Speaker 8 (25:40):
Almost really interesting. The information that you guys had on
the bucket lid need something different and not common. I
would love to know more about, like this particular bucket
if you have a manufacturer and you know you can
see code and stuff like that. Except would like to
know more about that. I've never focused on, you know,
(26:04):
the bucket that close, especially the lid, So I am
very curious to know more about that and what makes
that unique, because that could be a good lead to
follow up on.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Do you think that the FBI or does the FBI
have his receipts from the Maca tribe or from from
his company or do they can they get them still
if they don't have them.
Speaker 8 (26:28):
We do not have the receipts from the Macaw tribe.
As far as like things that his department would have purchased,
so that he would have purchased for his department. I
can try to find out if they still exist. We'd
be talking well over twenty years, so that, you know, unlikely,
but we can definitely pursue that. We do have credit
(26:51):
carve receipts from the time period that he was working
out here on the peninsula, and I know there's purchases
from home people and stuff like that on there, but
they only give us a total. We don't have itemized
type of seats. Just we've got creditcardy teap that he
you know, spend forty four dollars at home people have
a good day. So that's the extent of the detail
(27:13):
that we would be able to look at in regards
to those purchases. We can definitely reach out to the
tribe and see if, by some small chance, they've got
records that far back, but that's a tall task in
the sense that how many years ago it's been.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Yeah, and I'll send you the Skew number just in
case that will help it all.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
It'd be great. Yeah, you get to know if you
looked in to see what the distribution of that lid was,
I mean it was it's something that Home Depot carried,
or something that was on Amazon at the time or
anything like that.
Speaker 3 (27:46):
It's from home Depot. It's the sealable bucket lid that
goes along with the home Depot bucket.
Speaker 8 (27:53):
Think. I think the work you guys did on the
bucket lids is very intriguing and there's there's I think
potential there of maybe using that to kind of generate
some leads. Again, the thing that you know, as each
year goes by trying to get records becomes harder and harder.
(28:17):
So that's always something that's going to just make things
more challenging as we move forward. You know, companies and
they just don't keep records that long, So as we
go forward, it's going to be harder to reach back
for some of those old paper records that you know
might have helped us out.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
You know, ten fifteen years ago, if you had unlimited
resources to search for a cash how would you start
and where would you search?
Speaker 8 (28:42):
I think the I think the chances of law enforcement
being able to go blanket an area without some sort
of information to focus us on an area. I really
think it's going to be someone from the public that
just stumbles across it eventually. Really is just being able
to find evidence that can point us towards who these
(29:06):
victims are, and just having that evidence not to be
campered with that it's going to throw into questions to
the lenity of it. I mean, people will do some
really weird stuff for fifteen minutes of game. So you know,
when someone claims to have found something dealing with the
real keys, you always have to look at it in
that light. You know that I'll the information to see
(29:26):
if it's it's you know.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
Truthful or not the story that I sent from Reddit,
And I know this is probably not the best lead,
but I'm just curious. So somebody found, somebody claims to
have found this cash in their backyard, and I'm just wondering,
first of all, that has ever gotten back to the FBI,
or if that's not really an actual lead, or I
have nothing to do with his real keies, but mainly
(29:49):
just wondering, is there a chance that buckets have been
found and they're not getting back to the FBI, or
and is the only way that it really gets back
is by you guys putting out information and letting people
know that they're aware, or jurisdictions like different small police
departments may aware the Reddit bucket we are describing as
a tip that was written in the comment section of
(30:09):
an article on a website called Jezebel. Essentially, what happens
is a family moves into a property in upstate New
York or the New England area that abuts a state
or national forest. The family befriends some neighbors who also
had kids, and one day, while the neighbor was watching
the kids, she went to go check on them as
they were playing outside. She found that they, along with
the dog, had uncovered a sealed big box store bucket
(30:31):
that was buried underground by the edge of the woods.
The cops were called and showed up about two hours
later and pulled the top off the bucket. They claimed
to have found duct tape, zip ties, safety goggles like
you would wear using a saw or in a chemistry lab,
a gun scope, a large hunting knife, a dark haired wig,
and a bundle of something soft wrapped in black plastic.
(30:52):
The winness goes on to say that all the police
in a twenty mile radius arrived, local cops, sheriff deputies,
and highway patrol. They tape off the entire back part
of the yard and some distance into the woods. No
one was telling the family anything and wouldn't let them
back in the house until late that night, with the
police escort and cops roaming around both properties. The next day,
(31:12):
even more law enforcement appears, including the FBI. The witnesses,
including the kids, are questioned by federal agents when they
learned that the family had just recently moved in and
that the house stood vacant for several years before they
bought it. They were then asked if they noticed any
disturbed round around the property other than the bucket, especially
in any of the outbuildings.
Speaker 8 (31:33):
It's very possible that cashes have been found and information
has not gone back to us. It's very possible for
a million different reasons on why they may not get
back to us, but it's very possible this lead that
you guys talked about from Reddit, there was nothing that
(31:53):
I could look up to try to search the sea
if this is something that you know is that we've
received information on, so I would need more specifics to
try to search our system to see if this is
potentially a kit that you know we may have received.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
Since getting this reply from Special Agent Halla, we reached
out to the person who submitted this story to hopefully
receive some connecting information. Dakota and I also spoke with
Kim Kay, a researcher from the podcast True Crime Bullshit.
She has been looking into this tip as well. We're
going to do our best to get in contact with
the person who made the post. We've been unsuccessful so far,
but we aren't crossing up the list until we can
get more information. But for now, it sounds like until
(32:31):
we have something to connect it to. We'll have to
put this in the Wait and Sea bucket. So the
next thing on the Lake Paris Bernisconi Bay. This next
tip is from the case file. A man claims that
he happened to see Israel at Lake Paris State Recreation Area,
specifically Bernisconi Bay. He said that while he was fishing,
Israel approached him with a bucket and a shovel and
(32:52):
was acting odd. Eventually, the man's son joins them and
Israel loses interest. The man goes on to say that
later he saw Israel at her remote campground nearby. Now
he wasn't exactly sure what date this happened, so he
responded back with two dates, either March twelfth or March nineteenth,
twenty eleven. The FBI wrote in the case file that
they looked into March twelfth and it could not be
(33:14):
Israel if that was the day, But there was no
information on March nineteenth, so we wanted to check that
date with Special Agent Haula. But he did state two dates.
One was the twelfth and one was the nineteenth. They
follow up on the twelfth. Was there any follow up
on the nineteenth?
Speaker 8 (33:29):
Yeah, I believe there was follow up on that, and
it looks like he was in Anchorage at the time,
so they could feel pre confident he was not in
California during that time period.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
Excellent kylines.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, so we noticed that the Blake Falls cash and
the Manooski River cash were placed within one tenth of
a mile of a county line. What jurisdictional complications could
arise from something being so close to a county line
and him possibly cross crossing county and state lines. What
kind of problems does that cause for you?
Speaker 8 (34:03):
I don't know if that was an issue at all
for us. Yeah, I don't think there's there were issues
involved with.
Speaker 3 (34:10):
With that, you know, like such like in the case
of Deborah Feldman, It's it's possible that she was abducted
from New Jersey, taken too, you know, across multiple county
lines to New York. You know, on the commission of
a crime, he's crossing multiple state lines. That doesn't hinder
the investigation.
Speaker 8 (34:31):
Well from a federal standpoint, since you know, potentially if
this was something that you know, we were pursuing for
charging down the road, if she was alive and such.
The conspiracy started an Anchorage or Alaska which we would
have argued because he, you know, we would have argued,
he flew down to the lower forty eight for purposes
(34:52):
of committing these crimes. So the interstate asas has already
established once you leave Anchorage. Interesting, Okay, so the times
that occurred in Anchorage might be a little tricker for
federal prosecution, depending on the execut details of them. But
any time he's leaving his home state to commit these crimes,
(35:14):
like in the case of the couriers, there's a number
of federal violations that would apply. It would give us
federal jurisdiction if we were able to charge that.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
And he's still live today, and so that's a problem
that would maybe be more for state police or local police.
Speaker 8 (35:36):
Potentially. I don't know that he was familiar enough with
state laws to I don't know if that went into
his reasoning at abviously a good question on you know,
if he has these cashes that closed the counting lines
on purpose or if it's coincidents.
Speaker 2 (35:54):
Yeah, I think the one thing we noticed that was
actually next to like with an attent of a mile
of a sign that that stated the county line. So
it wasn't more of like this invisible line, so it's
more of a seemed like a potential, more of a
marker to actually have a.
Speaker 10 (36:19):
Want to about the bucket in Texas. No, but if
I get close to where it's at, which is there's not.
Speaker 3 (36:31):
A tracking device on. I have a pretty good memory.
I could pretty good in cash places. I have a
good memory when I need to.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
If we came close to where one was, would you tell.
Speaker 9 (36:51):
Us I don't.
Speaker 3 (36:53):
I don't know what you mean. If we're able to
tell you an area that we're pretty sure there's one,
would you tell us, Well.
Speaker 10 (37:02):
I assume you know I've been kind of all over
the place when I do go places.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
I don't know what you considered clothes like state No, No,
I mean.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Keys was interrupted there, but what he said was state
and county. Israel always seemed to be skirting county and
state lines when he was up to no good. His
caches appear to be within a very short distance of
boundary lines. He, in the case of the Couriers, was
engaged in severe crimes just across the Burlington, Essex border,
and in the case of Deborah Feldman, it is believed
(37:37):
he crossed multiple state lines. Although his understanding of jurisdictional
procedure may be less than complete. He seems to have
thought moving across boundary or jurisdictional lines would somehow benefit him,
causing confusion and disorder for law enforcement. Another source in
federal law enforcement, we were able to interview Expands on
this concept. To be candid on the topic, they chose
(37:58):
to remain anonymous. They told us jurisdictional success leans heavily
on personal relationships between law enforcement officers, officer to officer,
agency to agency. Having multiple organizations work on something could
confuse the case. Putting pieces together between states or even
within states. They go on to say, my reporting system
(38:21):
does not connect to the state reporting system. States and
the federal government don't talk or work very well together.
For example, if I ever wrote a DUI, it's a
five hundred and fifty dollars fine, and it doesn't even
go on your driving record. The systems just don't go together.
I asked them if a cash has found four or
five feet over a city or county line, who would
(38:42):
claim jurisdiction? They answered, if someone from the city found
that cash, they might not even mention it to someone
from the county. Then the county wouldn't know anything about
it because someone from the city found it and didn't
put it into a linked system, or there wasn't a
person to see the connection of the two crimes. And
the more distance between those crimes, the harder it is
(39:03):
to make that connection. The more jurisdictions, the more agencies,
It's all about distance. Anytime you create space, you get
an advantage. It's all about the people who work at
these agencies to build relationships. Random crimes are always the
hardest to solve.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Realizing that we also need to build relationships with people
from the Peninsula, We've been in contact with another podcaster
and bucket hunting enthusiasts from Squim, Washington. Her name is Peggy.
Her show Truth in the Shadow covered the case of
Lindsay Baum, a ten year old girl that went missing
from Mcleary, Washington, on June twenty six, two thousand and nine,
and whose skull was later discovered in Ellensburg, Washington, a
(39:39):
separate jurisdiction in twenty seventeen.
Speaker 8 (39:42):
Is in state.
Speaker 13 (39:43):
He hovers around reservation and then in National Forest and
then because like what happens with all these things too,
and what happened like in Lakey's case is it became
this jurisdictional nightmare.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
She disappeared from the.
Speaker 8 (39:56):
Town of mc McCleary police departments, not like that went to.
Speaker 13 (40:00):
Gray's Harbor, but then like there was some evidence maybe found,
they're not sure if it's tied to her in Mason County.
So now we have another county.
Speaker 8 (40:10):
Who stills found in Ellensburgh, but it's.
Speaker 13 (40:12):
Up on fish and wildlife, so it's state. It's just
like this jurisdictional nightmare. And anytime that jurisdictions are trying
to like.
Speaker 9 (40:24):
Talk to each other.
Speaker 13 (40:25):
And depending on how well they get along, also some
of that information could be lost. And so I kind
of always wondered with him, especially if he understood that,
and that was something that he used to just make
it a big mess, because he was talking about in
the interviews about like how come the Feds weren't stepping
in for certain things, and I thought, well, that's an
(40:46):
interesting question. Why would the feds step in unless you're
on federal land, meaning that you're in the park.
Speaker 6 (40:55):
That's another jurisdiction.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Yeah, that's something we're super curious about. We're actually today
we're working an episode about jurisdiction.
Speaker 3 (41:02):
So yeah, that's why we got real quiet just let
you talk.
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Along with interviewing law enforcement extensively for Lindsay's case, learning
a lot about how local agencies interacted with each other.
Peggy's prior career involved economic development for Clailam County, the
same jurisdiction that Special Agent Hollo covers in the same
area that we were searching on the peninsula. Can I
just ask one more question about jurisdiction, so you know,
we're not really sure if he understood that jurisdiction was
(41:35):
like a serious thing or not. And it seems like
the FBI didn't think it was a concern because they
felt they were able to get federal jurisdiction over almost
the entire case. If you if you have any more
to say about jurisdiction and what you think like if so, say,
if something was hidden just you know, one hundred yards
or something outside of a county line or something like that,
(41:57):
is the jurisdictional problems that would occur really just based
upon the size of the police department in the location,
or is there anything else that of note that you
think is really important to think about.
Speaker 13 (42:07):
I think like jurisdiction is such a funny thing because
you can, so police department can allow somebody else to
have jurisdiction in usually centual juris I'm not sure central
jurisdiction and all of those things where because usually the
county is involved because they have more resources than beds.
Speaker 6 (42:27):
Normally do on the ground.
Speaker 13 (42:31):
But the relationship between the law enforcement agencies is pretty
important also.
Speaker 6 (42:38):
So like if.
Speaker 13 (42:41):
Especially reservation those are you know, sovereign entities, and so
they don't need to work with the counties whatsoever if
they don't want to.
Speaker 8 (42:51):
Of like, now everybody works together.
Speaker 13 (42:54):
Pretty well, but like whether or not the jurisdiction laws
to give up information, I suppose help with it.
Speaker 2 (43:01):
And yeah, do you kind of think then that him
operating closer to reservations would kind of tie into that
where he would have materials close to the reservation or anything.
And you think, does that make sense to you that
that would be a logical way to kind of plan
a crime.
Speaker 13 (43:18):
Then well, especially because he worked for the tribe, that
I would think that the reason he would want that
separation is because he knows he has a certain amount
of protection by living on the reservation and so.
Speaker 8 (43:32):
Therefore, like he can kind of.
Speaker 13 (43:35):
I don't know, be protected by that jurisdictional part as
long as he's not doing it on the reservation. So
it would make sense to me that he would take
it off the reservation, even if it's only.
Speaker 6 (43:48):
Like a little ways off.
Speaker 13 (43:51):
But there again, I could also argue that he would
put something around there becomes jurisdictionally. There's very little law
enforcement out there. I guess we could argue about points
for it.
Speaker 5 (44:04):
Any clues or bones you can throw us to keep
us busy until that time talk to us. I have been
puzzled about your You seem an adamant that there's no
possible federal nexus to the Washington cases.
Speaker 3 (44:19):
And I'm just.
Speaker 5 (44:21):
Shocked because knowing the Peninsula like we do, there's so
much federal land out there.
Speaker 3 (44:25):
Especially with the National forest, national parks, and you.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
Know, my understanding then would be that nothing's happened on
those type of lands.
Speaker 3 (44:32):
Are we correct and understanding that or no, I just didn't.
Speaker 10 (44:37):
I didn't know that would qualify it as a federal crime.
Speaker 3 (44:40):
If it's a national park or.
Speaker 5 (44:41):
Something National park or National forest, we could have jurisdiction
on a felony.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
So see, that's all this stuff is the legal details.
Speaker 8 (44:52):
All these can new to me, but that's good to know.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
But that's possibility.
Speaker 8 (44:58):
Okay, Washington is I don't even remember. I mean, I
know all the places I went, and I know that
they are all public areas, but I don't know which
ones were state, which.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Ones are federal. I don't know.
Speaker 8 (45:16):
I never really.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Paid that much attention. Become important.
Speaker 8 (45:21):
There's a lot of federal land up and there's there's
lots of other ways for it to be federals, right,
that's an easy way, that's easy to do.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
So it's clear that the FBI believes that jurisdiction would
not have been an issue for their investigation. They're able
to claim the conspiracy to commit murder as Israel leaves
his home state of Alaska. The other federal officer that
we contacted has a different perspective. Although they are a
federal officer, they deal more in smaller communities and see
(45:49):
the dysfunction that can occur when a crime is handled
by multiple agencies. It really depends on the agencies building
relationships and communicating.
Speaker 8 (45:57):
Well.
Speaker 4 (45:58):
Then we have Peggy inside into the relationship between the
counties that we're searching. Gives us an insider's perspective, and
our knowledge of how law enforcement functions on the reservations
adds another layer to consider. So where does that leave us?
Although county lines have a potential to cause some jurisdictional
confusion or possibly a cache falling through the cracks, so
(46:18):
to speak, we have no way of knowing whether or
not keys factored in county lines or other boundary signs
when he chose his locations. He could have used a
signed county line as a landmark and had no thought
of what it would mean for law enforcement if ever discovered,
simply just an easy reference point on a map, especially
since it's a strategy taken directly from the caching manual quote.
(46:41):
Following objects, when available, are sometimes ideal reference points. Small
unfrequented bridges and dams, boundary markers, mile markers, culverts along
unfrequented roads, a geodetic survey marker, battle monuments, and wayside shrines.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
As new cashes are discovered, we can look to the
new locations to see if they share a similar distance
from the respective county line sign or the opposite can
be true. We may never see a boundary sign used again,
and it could just be a coincidence. This is why
any new spot on the map can really help, because
then we can cross reference it to the other known
locations and hopefully find patterns in his behavior. What is
(47:19):
clear is that the FBI and Special Agent Ted Hollis
specifically believe that their best path to a cache is
through the public. They rightfully so, are focused on finding
the victims that remain unnamed, so the resources they have
available have to be focused more on the time periods
when they believe he was most active. For now, we
are able to set two potential caches on the back burner,
(47:40):
the reddit bucket and the Lake Paris sighting. There is
of course a chance either one can be brought back
into the picture if more information is received, like a
location or confirmation from another agency on the reddit bucket
or a confirmed date for the Lake Paris sighting. But
what should be noticed is the FBI wasn't aware of
the reddit bucket, so it's a good example of a
way that we can help move the case forward. The
(48:00):
FBI believes there's a chance that someone already stumbled across
the cash and it just hasn't made its way back
to them, so that would be another goal for us.
Continue to fact check every lead that we get and
verify it with them so they can be the ones
to bet the information completely. Until more information is gathered,
we will not use either of these tips in our research,
which leads us to another question. We ask Special Agent
(48:21):
Hala that will bring a new cash into the picture.
Now for the first time, we're hearing that the FBI
believes this cash is actually tied to Israel. The next
tip that was the Olympic Hot Springs cash. There was
a cash with a bag. It had basically a rape
kit in the cash.
Speaker 8 (48:38):
With a history on that. When that came in, we
followed that one up very seriously. I really liked the
timeframe of it. It fits very nicely into when we
know that case was active on the peninsula and it
balled in that two thousand and five two thousand and
six times period, which is I think the key period
(48:59):
for him. It's it's from my opinion that I think
it's very likely that that cash was connected to keys,
but we will never know for sure without you know,
finding those items. But I think it's very consistent in
time period and everything.
Speaker 6 (49:14):
That I think it's very likely it could.
Speaker 8 (49:16):
Have been one of those guys.
Speaker 4 (49:22):
Next time on Somewhere in the Pines. We tune up
the bikes, dust off the rain gear, and cycle over
twenty miles to the location of the Olympic Hot Springs.
Cash as private investigator Hayden Delata helps us connect with
Josh Hallmark and the True Crime Bullshit Research Team.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Somewhere in the Pines.
One simple way for you to join the search is
to rate and review the show, and don't forget to
subscribe and tell a friend. For photos of the locations
we visit, go to Somewhere in the Pines dot com
forward slash photos for ad free episodes and behind the
scenes content. Join us on Patreon at patreon dot com
forward slash Somewhere in the Pines. We'd also like to
(50:17):
give a very special thank you to our Patreon producers
Heather Hort and Whedon, Nicole Guzman, Colleen Sullivan, Rochelle Roberts,
Lynley Tuschoff, and Notturman.
Speaker 8 (51:07):
Shit me an email and we'll try to work comping
out before the end of the month in person.
Speaker 3 (51:11):
That sounds great. Thank you so much, by I thank you,
thank that.
Speaker 8 (51:17):
Bye mm hmm.
Speaker 9 (51:23):
Ok.
Speaker 2 (51:25):
Nice work.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
Dude, yeah, good job. Holy fuck.
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