S01E07 - Caracol - The Artist - Somewhere in the Pines

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a studio both and collaboration.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Somewhere in the Pines is a serial podcast containing adult content,
including descriptions of violence, sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion
is strongly advised.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
We continue to interrupt our season one Olympic Peninsula Search
to bring you a mid season mini series of all
new information. Please enjoy this live showing that took place
on October nineteenth, twenty twenty four, at the Berkshire Podcast
Festival in North Adams, Massachusetts, and the work that led
up to the event.

Speaker 4 (01:11):
It's October seventeenth, twenty twenty four. I am on my
way to the airport to pick up our buddy Jesse,
that's going to be helping us this weekend as we
revealed the new evidence. Since we knew we were going
to be in the Northeast, we decided to go a
little bit early and do some searches for the second season.

(01:36):
So far, we've been to Hawk Mountain, Pennsylvania, searching for
two buckets. We've been to Blake Falls Reservoir searching for
a shovel. We went up to Malone and Constable to
interview Drew's family and found some amazing stuff there, and
then we went to Essex, Vermont to also search for cash. Yeah,

(02:01):
but then we went to Arathusa Falls in New Hampshire,
And today we woke up and drove from New Hampshire
down to Savoy, Massachusetts, where we have a cabin for
the entire duration of the festival because we'll be doing
some video shoots and Heather and her husband Joss will

(02:23):
be coming over to actually show us the image for
the first time in person. So yeah, we got a
lot going on. I think we've had about three hours
of sleep every night just because of all the driving
and planning for the event. But yeah, we're going to

(02:43):
pick up Jesse right now. Spent all day driving and
unpacking at the cabin and going to pick up merch
and meeting the team from True Crime bullshit, And I
think I gotta get I think Jesse arrives around ten
o'clock and then it's about another hour and a half drive

(03:05):
back to the cabin where we're gonna get the next
day and pre plan kind of go through all the details.
Is stillthing to be taken care of for the live presentation.
All right, I gotta get moving. Enjoy.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
In June of twenty twenty four, we were shown two
images of Israel's jail cell as it was found the
morning of his suicide. In twenty twelve. Teaming up with
contemporary Canadian artist Heather Horton Whedon, we were able to
bring this scene to the public for further examination. In
this live episode, we show you how the evidence was
able to come together and begin to explain how we

(03:51):
plan to break down what exactly this new information could
mean for the case, as you get an inside look
at the collaborative efforts involved in releasing such sensitive content.
I'm Dakota and I'm Joshua.

Speaker 5 (04:04):
Welcome to Someone in the Pines. Episode seven.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Charcle the artist.

Speaker 6 (04:17):
Second shout, so.

Speaker 7 (04:31):
S you Novice, you.

Speaker 8 (05:00):
There, I am Joshua. I can't hear me, Okay, but
I can't. You can't see me though, No, it's.

Speaker 5 (05:07):
Yeah, It just says Heather's it's fine.

Speaker 8 (05:09):
If you don't, God, why can I not do that?
Let's wait start video, duh.

Speaker 3 (05:15):
Joshua, Heather and myself have a conversation in the very
early stages of trying to figure out how to release
the cell information depicting Israel's suicide.

Speaker 5 (05:23):
Work and working. So yeah, I think very very much.

Speaker 9 (05:27):
Looking forward to this chat and yeah, for many reasons,
but i'll let you guys speak.

Speaker 5 (05:35):
So I started construction on the piece, but it's not
finished yet. So I hope to apply the writing tonight
and then have Streets take photos tomorrow to edit them.
So I think late tomorrow night I should be able
to send you the actual photos.

Speaker 8 (05:53):
I appreciate the degrees of separation.

Speaker 9 (05:55):
I think it's part of the intrigue actually personally, but
just so I understand. And so yeah, I'll be working
from a composite that you both worked on together, which
is pretty cool.

Speaker 5 (06:05):
So here this is a chicken scratch sketch of what
we saw and I'll try to go through each part
of it.

Speaker 8 (06:13):
WHOA, Okay, tell me anything you'd like right now.

Speaker 5 (06:17):
So dumb questions, yeah, no, no, no question is a
dumb question with us. So we'll be able to lay
this out a lot better on the actual image. But basically,
there was a bench that's on the right hand side
with brown and corners, and that's kind of what he
wrote on the sides. And then he had three milk
jug containers and another kind of like a mug type

(06:40):
cup container that was completely filled with blood, and we
was really odd of there. Didn't see any handprints on
the mugs, so he basically just filled them right in place,
right there and then probably dipped and used his hands
right from that spot.

Speaker 8 (07:00):
Ignorance quick question man asked, started interrupt. I'm sorry, So
the milk obviously he's not going to probably get milk
jugs in prison. So this is the just to just
to verify, because right, so these are this is these
are his drawings of them, just checking.

Speaker 5 (07:15):
No, this is this is Actually these are actual small
the small kind of milk containers that used to get
in probably like elementary school and stuff.

Speaker 8 (07:24):
I know exactly what you mean. Yeah, it was a
little dairy milk things.

Speaker 5 (07:27):
Exactly with the tops cut off and this. Yeah, so
this is all real, actual like actual photo that he
showed us the containers completely filled with blood and was
what was weird is like all the yeah, sorry, no problem.
If you want to, if you want to take an
and just look it over, you want to welcome too,

(07:48):
we can. I don't know, I.

Speaker 9 (07:50):
Appreciate you giving like, thank you for because that's like
that's like a whole other level.

Speaker 8 (07:54):
And so and you've seen this actual photo of it. Yeah,
can you can can you both share just like a
little bit of like what you of any part of
it that you doesn't have to be about the jokes,
but like any part of it that like I don't know,
just your impressions.

Speaker 5 (08:14):
Go ahead, to go. There was quite a bit of blood.

Speaker 6 (08:17):
It seemed like it.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
Probably he probably spent quite a good amount of time
doing what he was doing.

Speaker 6 (08:29):
I think that.

Speaker 3 (08:29):
And just for clarification, I think that, and you can
correct me, Josh if I'm wrong. The term the term
I would use for the containers would be cartons, Is
that right?

Speaker 5 (08:40):
Yeah? They weren't plastic.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
They were like the waxed paper cartons, just just to
be clear about that.

Speaker 5 (08:49):
But quite a bit of blood.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
All the all the containers were overflowing with blood. The
bench that they were sitting on was covered in blood.
And he it seems like he maybe I mean, I
don't know. I just don't know, like how long it
would take someone to drain themselves of their blood and
fill all those containers and like it. I guess it
depends on the initial wound. And you know, and without

(09:17):
knowing exactly and what order that happened.

Speaker 8 (09:20):
You have to wonder given his military training, you have
to wonder if if he knew to tourniquet himself, because
if he could tournique himself, he could staunch and he
could mitigate the flow, versus if he opens it, then
he would just not be able to control that and just.

Speaker 3 (09:34):
Think right, and he'd lose and start losing consciousness much.

Speaker 8 (09:38):
Correct exanguination exactly.

Speaker 3 (09:40):
Mm hmm, yeah, yeah. And I don't remember, Josh, do
you remember seeing any any evidence of a tournique anywhere
in the pictures?

Speaker 5 (09:49):
I don't.

Speaker 6 (09:49):
I don't remember seeing that, But nope.

Speaker 5 (09:52):
They didn't have. Basically, how was presented to us is
he had asked, and we can let you listen to
this whenever whenever we meet it up and stuff the link.
But basically we had asked just to know to clarify
what the word was, because we've heard belize corsol, and
Josh had mentioned one time that it might be carecle,

(10:13):
and so we just wanted to clarify what the word was.
And he put down the first photo and it was
a photograph taken a little bit further back where you
couldn't actually see anything on the bench, so it was
just the word characle. And then he showed us a
second photo that was more zoomed in to actually show
the extra writing on the bench. So from that we
weren't able there was nothing else that was really noticeable

(10:35):
and visible on the outside that would be that I
would call important for this. So really just trying to
create the same image of the closer up image looking
at the bench and you know, and just to throw
this out there. This is also the same point in
time where he wrote his suicide note. So this, yeah,

(11:00):
see if there's any sort of excuse me, any sort
of connection between that and these writings. So all this
was done at the same time, and there was like
obviously blood on the suicide note too. Yes, I would say,
what surprise me the most is how clean it was.
So the what do you mean ask for elaboration on
that totally. So so something like the word characle, It

(11:21):
wasn't like dripping in blood. It was really just kind
of two what I what I would say, like two
finger withs in size and probably like seven to nine
inches maybe maybe at the most nine inches per letter.

Speaker 8 (11:34):
Yeah, that's pretty large like this.

Speaker 5 (11:38):
Yeah, and so that's that was the most important word,
we think because of how large it was, and it
was at its own spot, and this this line of
blood that's underneath it. That was more lights wipe against
the wall. It wasn't trying to underline the word, so
I'll try to emulate that as best as possible. It
was just kind of like maybe a shirt or something.

Speaker 8 (11:57):
So you don't think it was intentional necessarily you were.
I don't think it was a touch.

Speaker 5 (12:01):
I don't think so.

Speaker 8 (12:01):
Yeah, yeah, this one.

Speaker 5 (12:03):
Up here will be further over in the in the
photo we send, but it kind of looked like maybe
like somebody was wearing a shirt soaked and blood was
against the wall and then came apart. So it was
kind of like really watery and kind of just like
the almost like a fabric type impression.

Speaker 8 (12:22):
Huh. So right, so you were saying like bloods of
fabric like something had kind of is that what you were saying,
going up against it?

Speaker 3 (12:29):
Yeah, pressed against it, like he leaned against the wall
and his blood type thing.

Speaker 8 (12:35):
Okay, okay.

Speaker 5 (12:37):
And then so what I meant, what I meant by
clean is there like there was no dripping coming down
from here, and the words the bench they were much
smaller and it looked more like painted with a single
finger as opposed to these with double fingers, possibly because
it was just a thicker, larger image, so same thing,
just really smaller. It's a smaller service. I'm i based

(13:00):
upon the milk jugs, milk curtains. I think we've got
this dimension down pretty good as around eighteen by eighteen,
so it was a.

Speaker 3 (13:12):
Lot of.

Speaker 8 (13:14):
Yeah, do you mind writing like kind of just general dimensions,
doesn't have to be just to give me kind of
a sense of it. Yeah, thank you, Sorry to trup going, no.

Speaker 5 (13:26):
No problem, And I'll put all of this in detailed
notes too, so that way, you know, could have questions
to keep it come back whatever. So but like I
said before, like there was some dripping on the milk jugs,
but it wasn't like handprints and like really messy. It
was like they were almost in the place and he
filled them and then there was just a lot of

(13:46):
spill blood around here where it was like really thick
around the around the jugs, but then kind of just
slowly kind of petered off from there. So it wasn't
like the entire floor was completely dranched. It was probably
maybe right well most maybe three foot in width and
maybe a foot to maybe eighteen inches off the wall.
I would say, just just guessing really quick, but sorry.

Speaker 8 (14:08):
And these were just masks. These are because you know,
like you were saying, we're kids. These are the little
dairy milk ones.

Speaker 9 (14:14):
Not the tall one obviously, but like maybe, but I
don't think so at the little ones.

Speaker 8 (14:19):
Yeah, so he had exercised the top yes, and then
were they different heights like I'm seeing in yours?

Speaker 5 (14:26):
No, they were. They were almost almost all exactly the same.
I think he probably like what I've done so far
is I just cut basically right at the top line,
and that's that's the thing that will be a little
bit different. I'm gonna see if I can get shries
to change the color in the photo because I couldn't
find the actually dairy brand has a really dark blue.

Speaker 8 (14:45):
With the dark blue, I know it, Yeah, I know it. Yes,
I could.

Speaker 9 (14:49):
I could go and buy one if I need to
have something in situ. But anything that Sheres can do,
I appreciate that.

Speaker 5 (14:55):
Yes, well, the cream cheese, so the cream cheese container
that I have has the same color. It's a dairy
cream cheese. So I took a photo of that, so
you can have the color palette with.

Speaker 8 (15:03):
That brilliant, thank you.

Speaker 9 (15:04):
And then now because that's a lot of blood considering
the human body has like, what is it, nine fourteen clients.

Speaker 5 (15:12):
Totally, I'm not sure it's.

Speaker 8 (15:14):
Weird that I know that.

Speaker 9 (15:15):
I don't know, I should verify that my mom was
a nurse. But that's like a lot. I think that's
very interesting. And Dakota, as you pointed out, like it's uh,
it's interesting that there's so much and yet so much
planning went into it. I'm not surprised by that, you know, Yep, anyway,

(15:37):
go on, sorry.

Speaker 5 (15:38):
No, no, don't don't apologize. Yeah, I've got the I
think I've got the color picked out. I matched the
I knew it was like a yellow with a slight
hinted peach in it. And but that may have been
from the color of the photo, you know, I don't.
It seemed like they had some light on it, so
there was a bit of a vignette on the on
the outskirts. But I don't know if that's just the

(15:58):
lighting from the actual jealous well or like a flash
photography or what it was. But it was it was
yellow with like a slight I would say, just the
tiniest bit of peach in it, so I have I
took some photos from the Alaskan jail cells and tried
to get a perfect match for that too.

Speaker 8 (16:15):
I'm sorry, what was what was the fourth vessel?

Speaker 5 (16:17):
What is that? So this was more of a cylinder,
and we haven't been able to identify exactly what it is,
but it wasn't. It wasn't a cylinder that was tapered
like a coffee mug, like a coffee cup. You would
get it like a Starbucks or something. Dakota happens to
know somebody that works at the DOC, so I think
he's going to contact them and try to get an
idea of what kind of containers they have there or

(16:39):
could access.

Speaker 8 (16:40):
So it is cylindrical. I'm just looking because in here
I'm seeing like, okay, that's good to know.

Speaker 5 (16:46):
So yeah, I said, it's not the best drind No.

Speaker 8 (16:52):
You have perspective. You have perspective in your drawing.

Speaker 9 (16:57):
This is great, and this is this is and silly.
These were indeed dairy amount containers, Am I correct? The
dark blue ones of which we're speaking or just similar to.

Speaker 5 (17:06):
So I couldn't see a brand name, but those are
the colors, the dark blue with the.

Speaker 8 (17:09):
Dark red, yep, yep, Okay.

Speaker 5 (17:12):
The amazing like I would say, is you know, worrying
about the details beyond the blood and the containers and everything,
like obviously just trying to get the letters to be
you know, legible so somebody could read it. And you know,
the focus on like the extreme details in the background
are less important, I guess than actually getting the spacene,

(17:36):
I think, right, So I'll try to get the spa
scene right well enough to where you can see that
you know, this isn't connected to the This isn't connected
to this. This isn't really connected to this that we
could see in any way it.

Speaker 8 (17:47):
Does support the plant. Our initial chat about the size,
because printing letters with paint is like if it's small,
it gets progressively more difficult smaller. It is not saying
I'm going to do some like you know, billboard, but
like the lard that'll give me more latitude, like a
little bit more space to properly do the lettering. Do

(18:10):
you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, okay, not.

Speaker 9 (18:14):
Crazy big, but just big enough that I'm not like
worried about if they'll be effective or not, or if
they'll be legible.

Speaker 8 (18:20):
I want them to be just right, And.

Speaker 5 (18:23):
I think, like I was saying, probably I mentioned horizontal before,
but that's just because of trying to fit everything in.
But we obviously don't need like the entire bench or anything,
you know, it's really just focusing on the smaller area.
I think is probably the most important thing.

Speaker 9 (18:38):
I really like your negative space that you've put in
here side note, no, no, no, I really like it.

Speaker 8 (18:43):
I think negative space is important in a painting because
it gives the viewer a chance to let their eye rest,
whether they're conscious of it or not. Like, if you
have areas of concentration, then your eye goes there and
has to take that in. And then if you've got
areas where your eye could kind of like rely, whether
it be on like cinder blocks or the paint whatever.

(19:05):
In other words, what I'm saying is, yeah, even if
it's not the whole bench, I.

Speaker 9 (19:09):
Really I'm digging how like that line I see across
the top, I kind of just like the idea of that,
so that it's not just information like that, it's actually
got some space around it to be like it helps
the viewer be like, let's take a breath and have
a look.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
So I've been investigating israel Kies for more than a decade,
which is a thing I kind of hate saying now.
And in that time, I get emails from people constantly.

Speaker 10 (19:55):
They want to help, they want to give me tips,
they want to go out and look for kill kids.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
And I'm always very scared, and so I just don't
respond to them because I'm like, I don't need a
bunch of ding Dongs.

Speaker 10 (20:05):
Out of the woods killing themselves because of me.

Speaker 6 (20:09):
And then these two ding dongs sent me an email
and I ignored it.

Speaker 10 (20:15):
I got sent me another one and I ignored that one.
And then they sent me another one and I ignored
that one.

Speaker 3 (20:20):
And then I.

Speaker 1 (20:21):
Hired a private investigator to get in touch with someone
from my research team, and they.

Speaker 10 (20:26):
Got my attention, and.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Then they became family to me because we got on
the phone and I realized they had the same ethics
and motivations.

Speaker 6 (20:36):
That my team and I had, and I.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Immediately wanted to work with them and be friends with them.

Speaker 6 (20:45):
And so Josh and.

Speaker 1 (20:47):
Dakota from somewhere in the Pines joined the Studio book
and Network, or created the Studio Booking.

Speaker 6 (20:53):
Network, which was just me at that point, and.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Together we'd done some really cool stuff and they were
about to do something really cool.

Speaker 10 (21:02):
Uh, and it's with the help of the lovely.

Speaker 1 (21:07):
Canadian contemporary or this Heather Horn, who uh I only
just met yesterday, if.

Speaker 10 (21:13):
I can tell you who he is one of the
sweetest Humian beings on the planet. Uh.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
And their partnership does a really really cool and I'm
rarely jealous of anyone.

Speaker 10 (21:23):
Who does anything with is real jeeese.

Speaker 1 (21:25):
But like, I'm jealous of some of the work they've done,
and it doesn't honor to get to present them to
you guys.

Speaker 10 (21:31):
So, Josh Heather Dakara.

Speaker 11 (21:35):
Do you have a real cool but.

Speaker 5 (21:42):
Yeah, just declip that. Hi, guys, everybody's beck you Joshua
josh Sort I'm Joshua Jo.

Speaker 9 (21:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (21:56):
Uh. So we were showing a piece of evidence from
the case and uh, we're not gonna.

Speaker 10 (22:03):
Make it really suspenseful.

Speaker 6 (22:04):
We're just gonna show you right away.

Speaker 5 (22:05):
But we wanna warn you that is uh very graphic
and uh it deals with uh Israel's suicide, So if
people have issues with that, it might be a good
time to step out of and uh, I guess with that,
we'll probably just get up and reveal the image and
you're welcome to take photos. We'll give you a second
to take a photo post to wherever you want to.
It's really important for this information.

Speaker 11 (22:25):
To get out, so uh yeah, you're welcome to you
whatever you want, right, and you can come to the
front of the stage if you wanna get a little
bit closer for the people in the back.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Mmma, no, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (22:45):
Also, as we reveal Heather's rendering of the crime scene,
the crowd engages in hush tones as they take photos.
If you'd like to view the image and follow along,
you can access I said it somewhere in the Pines
dot com Forward slash Kara call dash photo.

Speaker 5 (23:16):
Okay, he has my stuff. Yeah, we're not used to
doing live shows, so they're with us.

Speaker 1 (23:27):
They Finally, that's the coolest response to a live show
I've ever said.

Speaker 5 (23:36):
So we want to start off by explaining this is
clearly a painting done by Heather, and.

Speaker 10 (23:43):
We want to go through and explain all the details
of what is up.

Speaker 5 (23:46):
There, because obviously we weren't allowed to actually show you
the full image. So this is when Israel was found
dead in his cell, and he was also found with
a suicide note. Though several pages long covered of blood.
Basically this section up here. We asked him to confirm
one word, which is characle, and he especialized in hala.

(24:08):
An FBI agent Dad has been willing to work with
us in some respects instead.

Speaker 10 (24:13):
Because of the I think because of the work we've
done so.

Speaker 5 (24:15):
Far up No, he basically just dropped the photos down
in front of us, and the top left corner that
image right there, it looked as though it was a
wet blotch on the wall where maybe his shirt was wet,
and it was like left fabric against the wall and
then came off.

Speaker 6 (24:28):
A bit, so he was very thin.

Speaker 5 (24:31):
It wasn't really like a splatter for lack of a
better word.

Speaker 10 (24:36):
But so it looked up more like fabric pressed against
the wall. And then the word charricle rand across the front, and.

Speaker 5 (24:43):
That wasn't looked like that was done in maybe two fingers,
so it was kind of a little bit larger and
maybe like seven to nine inches in size.

Speaker 10 (24:51):
And then the.

Speaker 5 (24:52):
Slash that's underneath, that's in the middle, that was a
good distance away from the charricle to where it didn't
look like it was actually an underline. It looked like
a separate thing altogether, almost like a hand swipe across
the bottom of the wall. Now the very next thing
on the on the floor, we have three milk cartons
that were cut open. And then when we only remember

(25:15):
as a cylinder, we've still just try to find out
what that is.

Speaker 10 (25:18):
And it was likely some sort of cup that they'd
just served to you.

Speaker 6 (25:20):
Would in jail.

Speaker 5 (25:22):
And all three, all four of those items were completely
filled with blood.

Speaker 10 (25:26):
And there were no handprints.

Speaker 6 (25:29):
It wasn't messy.

Speaker 5 (25:30):
It was very controlled and very clean, aside from the
obvious pool of blood that's locating.

Speaker 6 (25:36):
On the ground.

Speaker 5 (25:38):
And then on the side wall there was a bench.
Now this is all new information. It means if the
only blood was fine, I would spill it and that
was done in it looks like maybe just one finger
and the size was about half the size of the charricle,
so around four inches and size.

Speaker 10 (25:57):
Four inches and night we just it's really important because
when Israel killed a young woman.

Speaker 5 (26:05):
Named Samantha Komg it was an image that came out
afterwards after he held an event. He held a mansive
note and the image was reproduced, recreated by somebody, and
it was a fake image and it's terrible and for us,
we wanted to make sure we were real to present
the most accurate information possible. And like I said, we're

(26:25):
lucky enough to have Heather who is an incredible painterred artist,
and she was able to recreate it as clearly as
we remember seeing him.

Speaker 6 (26:36):
And with that.

Speaker 5 (26:39):
We will just go we we have to have Josh
monterade and asked the questions and go.

Speaker 9 (26:44):
Ahead, all right?

Speaker 1 (26:45):
What if I went off script and just asked you
different questions?

Speaker 6 (26:51):
What's your favorite cheese?

Speaker 1 (26:54):
So obviously you guys met with Asia Halla and you
shared this with you or tell every one about your
journey to that.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
Meaning Well, early on in our research, we knew that
some of the things we were noticing about the case
that we wanted to bring to the FBI, and we
just thought that it was important. We didn't know, you know,
if they noticed the smaller details or some of the
things that we were noticing.

Speaker 6 (27:22):
We figured they had, but we wanted to make sure.

Speaker 3 (27:25):
So as we were kind of constructing the first couple episodes,
we had a couple leads that we really wanted to
make the FBI aware of, and I just made the
phone call and.

Speaker 6 (27:38):
We got really lucky.

Speaker 3 (27:40):
Everyone was out to lunch and Special Agent Halla, who
is the agent in charge of the case, was the
one that answered the phone, and so we were able
to have a really in depth, detailed conversation with him
right then in the moment, and he kind of gave
us the process to get media.

Speaker 6 (27:56):
Clearance and everything like that.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
And when we were able to actually sit down in
person with him, we knew that we wanted to get
the information of what was actually written on the wall
in the cell. We never really expected him to show
us the images, and it was right when we were
basically right when the interview started, he said, you guys

(28:19):
wanted to know what was written on the wall, and
he just put the images down on the on the
desk in front of us, and we weren't allowed to
take pictures, but we took great care in trying to
remember what was what we saw. Josh immediately made a
sketch when we left the building, just tried to really
identify shape, sizes, just everything we saw and it was

(28:46):
just it was just a really incredible moment because you know,
we're amateur sluice. We're I mean, I don't even know
if we're that I don't know what we are, so
we were contractors. Yeah, thank you, Yeah, these are my
good pants. So yeah, it was just something that we

(29:06):
never expected. And I think that they might want this
information to be out there because it might lead to
a location for us, you know, because that's what we're
looking for, is we're looking for locations and behaviors in
those locations. And I just think that they need the
information to get out to the public to generate some leads.

Speaker 6 (29:28):
So one of the things.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
I appreciate about both of you is you guys really
labored over how to share this information with audiences, how
to do it ethically, mindfully and accurately. They even contacted
Sarah Turney and Haley Gray because I just ethics were so.

Speaker 12 (29:48):
Important to them, which is why we're friends.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Why did you decide to do it in this medium?

Speaker 5 (29:58):
Well, whenever we saw the image, we only saw for
maybe a minute of total, and we knew that basically
he took the pictures away from us, So we tried
to measure everything out and get a good idea of
what the lay all looked like.

Speaker 6 (30:10):
And we knew that we would not.

Speaker 5 (30:12):
Be able to present the picture of anybody and to
anybody so we could present the words to people, but
we felt that that was just walking on line that
was maybe just too dangerous, where people would make their
own images and then there would mean t shirts and
who knows what would happen with it.

Speaker 6 (30:30):
So we just got very lucky in meeting.

Speaker 5 (30:33):
Heather and it just kind of came naturally to where
the decision was made to just make it as a
painting just because of her talent and her skills, and
we felt that she was the only person that we
could have done like this, So it's we just got
really lucky, and we didn't originally want to do it
as a painting, but it just made We didn't know

(30:54):
how to release it originally, and then it just made
sense that this is the best way to do it.

Speaker 6 (30:59):
And Hather, how did you come to us?

Speaker 13 (31:05):
I've been binging to Frank bullshit for low these many years,
and as soon as I heard about somewhere in the mines,
I was like just.

Speaker 12 (31:16):
Went right over subscribed right away.

Speaker 9 (31:18):
And they wrote and said, your first highest year supporter,
what's your story? You know, we started an email dialogue,
I shared my art with them, and it sort of
evolved organically I didn't know all what they had been doing,
and so when they came to me with this idea
and what they had, I was blown away, honored and

(31:39):
still am. And I felt very safe because of exactly
what you said, the ethics and the integrity, and I believe,
I'm guessing a special agent Holla felt that too, and
how he trusted you with that information.

Speaker 12 (31:53):
So that is how I came to work with them.
So it happened safely, organically.

Speaker 9 (31:58):
With integrity, and that made it It made it a pleasure,
if one can call it that, to do this painting.

Speaker 6 (32:08):
What were some of your challenges and releasing this? I'll
tell you, like.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
I am an on the fly reporter, and these guys
will like find something and be like, but we don't
want to report on it for like six months.

Speaker 6 (32:19):
Just keep it to yourself.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
But imber what.

Speaker 5 (32:23):
So other than that, what your struggles with this? There
were many, is I guess the biggest thing was starting
out trying to find a way to build trust with
other She contacted us originally and the idea kind of
came came back behind the scenes that we might try

(32:45):
to ask her to do this, and it just kind
of as how I said, it kind of build naturally,
and it was really just the trust building that got
us the point to be able to do this.

Speaker 10 (32:56):
And then there were a lot of things, mainly the
worst part about it.

Speaker 5 (33:02):
The biggest challenge is knowing that victims' families will see this,
friends will see this, and even as far as Israel's
family will see this, you know, so I think trying
to work through that and then talking to Sarah July
was a huge help to get to get through that
process because I don't want to cause anybody in any pain,

(33:22):
but you know, we think that there's a chance that
this could be to another victim if somebody knows what
this means, and we will explore that later on.

Speaker 10 (33:32):
But the biggest thing is just trying to well.

Speaker 5 (33:36):
Then we also have to recreate the actual picture for
them to be able to paint it, because my schedule
is terrible and we can run hard.

Speaker 6 (33:46):
It was done on a nap, can I believe?

Speaker 5 (33:48):
No, no, no, no, no, I'm really I'll actually kind
of thought of it, but you know, so we had
to actually recreate this image, and luckily with our artry skills,
we were.

Speaker 10 (34:01):
Able to build this same sell image.

Speaker 5 (34:04):
In my basement and help with my friend Jesse, we
were able to recreate the blood and make the image,
which was an absolutely terrifying and horrible experience.

Speaker 6 (34:18):
It's probably the biggest challenge.

Speaker 10 (34:20):
So that's it.

Speaker 1 (34:21):
So, you know, there's all these ethical physical chapel needs
to do in this, which begs the question, why do
you think it's important despite all that to release the supervision?

Speaker 6 (34:37):
We don't know.

Speaker 3 (34:38):
We've had time to sit with this and investigate what
it could possibly mean, and at this point we don't
know what it means. But if you and if you
do your own research, you look this Cara call up
and kind of look into it, you're gonna find that
there's a lot of avenues of investigation to go down.

(34:59):
And and I think we all agree that we may
not know what it means, but someone out there might
and that's why it's so important to get the information
to the public. I think that we're at the point
now where we agree with the FBI where the public
is our biggest.

Speaker 6 (35:18):
Resource, and it's you know, I just.

Speaker 3 (35:22):
Think that we're trying to find cases and we're so
far beyond Like our mission statement was that you know,
early early on, but.

Speaker 6 (35:34):
It's been.

Speaker 3 (35:37):
Just kind of it's something like we felt like we
had to do even though it was hard.

Speaker 6 (35:42):
It was something it was a hard decision to make.

Speaker 3 (35:45):
But one other thing that we want to bring up
is that examining, like the sell information as a whole,
like that event, there's a lot of parts to that.

Speaker 10 (35:59):
So we have a block letter that was written.

Speaker 3 (36:02):
About victims, we have a goodbye letter to his family,
we have a suicide note.

Speaker 6 (36:09):
And we have the drawings on the wall. And then
earlier in the year, in July.

Speaker 3 (36:14):
Of twenty twelve, he had done the skull drawings with
the image of botha net, which I think is probably
the most scene picture that goes along with this case.
And we just think it's really important to be able
to examine all the information.

Speaker 6 (36:32):
As a whole and see where it takes us.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
Josh, you are an incredibly talented artist.

Speaker 6 (36:45):
Your art tends to be less moody than this. What
was it like anything?

Speaker 12 (36:53):
This paradoxically surreal and calming.

Speaker 9 (36:59):
It is unlike anything I've ever painted before. It's funny
when you paint something, even if you do a painting,
a monato biographical painting where I'm upset when.

Speaker 8 (37:11):
You're painting it, you have to.

Speaker 9 (37:14):
You're thinking about the technical elements, and so you kind
of separate yourself a bit from the.

Speaker 8 (37:18):
Why with here.

Speaker 9 (37:20):
I thought, this guy didn't do anything arbitrarily, it seems,
I would guess, and this probably is very much included.

Speaker 8 (37:28):
I didn't think about the why. I didn't know the why.

Speaker 9 (37:30):
I just thought, I need to do this to the
very best in my ability. Having decent reference is the key.
If someone just describes I'm not a conceptual artist, that's
not my jam.

Speaker 8 (37:42):
So when he gave.

Speaker 12 (37:43):
Me the recreation of this scene, I thought I can
do it.

Speaker 8 (37:47):
I can do this.

Speaker 12 (37:48):
But until i'd seen that, I was nervous in theory.

Speaker 8 (37:51):
I'm like, let's go.

Speaker 9 (37:52):
But when you see it, I thought, okay, I think
I can do this, and I was going to paint it.

Speaker 12 (37:57):
Larger, but then I thought that's not right. It didn't
It felt too big, and I didn't want it to
be about that.

Speaker 7 (38:04):
This was the size that would be able me to
do this the text well enough so that if it
was too small, I couldn't do it very well. So
this was the size that I landed on, because too bigger,
too much bigger than this would be too much.

Speaker 9 (38:19):
And I was like, that's the perfect size to do it.
So that's the side and again having great reference key
And you were asking about how how did I rationalize
it within myself?

Speaker 8 (38:32):
I think knowing that it.

Speaker 9 (38:33):
Was and a recreation, if you will, helped me kind
of handle that unconsciously, I suppose, so at the time,
I just kind of compartmentalized it.

Speaker 12 (38:44):
Thought, let's go, let's do this.

Speaker 7 (38:45):
I'm painting red and red in my pains, the harvest
color of paint.

Speaker 12 (38:49):
It's tough because if you had white, it's painting sow
that you.

Speaker 14 (38:53):
So I'm like, oh, just go.

Speaker 9 (38:56):
So it was challenging, but it was very rewarding and
I'm hopeful.

Speaker 5 (39:03):
And uh, just somebody knows. The goal for this where
this image will hopefully stay is we want to present
into the FBI and donate into the FBI.

Speaker 6 (39:12):
For their museum.

Speaker 10 (39:15):
Right now, there is an Israel Kis museum and we're
hoping that.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
Starts exhibit oh exhibit yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, we're live.

Speaker 6 (39:27):
We hope to donate to the FBI.

Speaker 5 (39:28):
Is the name name?

Speaker 6 (39:29):
Uh thing I was trying to say.

Speaker 10 (39:31):
And it will not be sold, it will not be exploited.

Speaker 5 (39:34):
In any way, not going to do anything merg rain
like that of this and hope that nobody else does
anything like that. And also what is important about this
is that, uh, we'd like to talk more about this, but.

Speaker 6 (39:48):
It's really important.

Speaker 5 (39:49):
The biggest preas member was shown this is so that
it could get attention, which is a you know, terrible
thing to say. But the main thing is that.

Speaker 6 (39:58):
The FBI the.

Speaker 5 (39:59):
Names there are. There is evidence out in the woods.
There are buckets out there that contain evidence. And the
more people that know about keys, the more people that
know these buckets exist, the better because people have absolutely
found them and it just is not gonna been connected
back to the FBI, which I'm sure we'll talk about.

Speaker 4 (40:18):
In the next.

Speaker 6 (40:20):
Next time.

Speaker 5 (40:21):
So that's the biggest thing is if you ever find
something like this, do not open it, and do not
just right away called the authorities even if you don't
know what it is.

Speaker 10 (40:31):
Good is the goals, and hopefully this will lead to
another good at some point.

Speaker 6 (40:40):
I have a quick question.

Speaker 10 (40:42):
Now, Heather has been out in moments of you, I've
been out in the moments with you.

Speaker 6 (40:47):
Do you enjoy watching us for ourselves.

Speaker 15 (40:53):
Go to No?

Speaker 6 (40:59):
I think that you both better balance than I do
do we know? Just trying to be polite.

Speaker 5 (41:06):
You're very kind.

Speaker 12 (41:07):
I injured myself twice on a recent search.

Speaker 9 (41:09):
I poked, I scratched my cornea, which is still healing,
and I went I flipped.

Speaker 8 (41:15):
I didn't even go forward with like a head roll properly.
I went backwards. I think they have it on audio.

Speaker 12 (41:21):
The video had camped out, but I do believe it's
on audio.

Speaker 6 (41:24):
I hope.

Speaker 12 (41:25):
So I'm only I'm only talking.

Speaker 9 (41:27):
About it now because I didn't hurt myself more seriously,
but I did scratch my eye.

Speaker 12 (41:31):
It's been a crazy two days.

Speaker 6 (41:33):
But I'm wonderful day. It was out there with us
for like three days. We went out for like twenty
minutes because I'm smarter.

Speaker 9 (41:42):
Too.

Speaker 5 (41:43):
Shit.

Speaker 6 (41:43):
Also, these guys record everything, so we are so.

Speaker 10 (41:50):
Well with a few minutes.

Speaker 6 (41:51):
You guys wanted to uh yeah, real quick, I want to.

Speaker 3 (41:56):
I want to say that obviously, this is an ongoing investigation.
We are trying to connect victims to the crimes, and
we feel like the best way to do that is
to find the caches.

Speaker 6 (42:11):
And like I said earlier, our biggest resource is you, guys,
is the public. If you see or find anything, like that,
Like Josh said, don't open it. If you want to
support the investigation.

Speaker 3 (42:21):
You can support us on our Patreon And if you
want to engage with the information more, you can engage.

Speaker 6 (42:28):
With the information on our website.

Speaker 10 (42:30):
And we are excited for the next few episodes.

Speaker 5 (42:34):
We've a tone to a lot of different professionals. We
have a three hour interview with four half bad profilers
that sat down and actually cover in Israel Keys's case separately.
There was two of them covered Samantha Comings case and
William of Learning Careers case independently and.

Speaker 6 (42:53):
Didn't even know the Keys was involved.

Speaker 5 (42:54):
So we had an amazing conversation with Van showing in
the image and trying to get their input on them.
And we're gonna try to break down as much of
this as possible the next few episodes.

Speaker 6 (43:04):
So hopefully we don't.

Speaker 5 (43:06):
Want this to go down some crazy rabbit hole where
people just make us do this a really big thing
when it may not be.

Speaker 6 (43:13):
I think maybe they could have mentioned this.

Speaker 5 (43:15):
One of the biggest things that we think is that
somebody does know what this means, one of this family members.

Speaker 6 (43:20):
Maybe somebody doesn't know what this means, and we hope
that this supposed.

Speaker 9 (43:23):
To be to that.

Speaker 16 (43:26):
Yeah, it's pretty any of our students, Oh okay, yes,
So I don't know if this.

Speaker 12 (43:38):
Is necessarily in your wheeled house to answer or not.

Speaker 7 (43:41):
But with this being so elaborate, on top of the
suicide note and everything else, do we know how he
was able to.

Speaker 5 (43:49):
Be left alone for so long to be able to
accomplish this, Like wasn't he supposed to be on suicide
watch and things like that? So one thing we don't
want it to be. As you can see, we're very
nervous and we make the mistakes right now. We don't
want to say the incorrect thing and how it be

(44:09):
something that gets spread.

Speaker 6 (44:11):
So I think if you questions like that.

Speaker 5 (44:13):
That are more about the specific, specific specifics of it,
we want to try to answer those three episodes over
the next few months. And so, just as an example
of the word chricle, actually, how can you explain how
many different ideas there are? Worth carefully?

Speaker 8 (44:31):
Of course if.

Speaker 12 (44:34):
There's at least four off the top of my head.
For example, there is the antiquated military.

Speaker 9 (44:41):
Maneuver of carrat calling, which would involve cavalryer infantry doing
a half turn discharging their weapon, turning again and discharging
their weapon and then circling back around to the back
of the formation like a snail, which is actually what
Kara called means in Spanish. It originated from the ancient
Greek for I think it was cochlear, like the inner ear,

(45:03):
which means snail or spiral.

Speaker 12 (45:05):
I believe so terracal is the.

Speaker 9 (45:07):
Actual word I believe for snail in Spanish, but also
the military number. And now it's actually used as a
dressage maneuver. I have not seen it done, but that
is in the one of the definitions of it. It's
also simply defined as a spiral shape. It's very snail connected,
but a spiral shape one could also that's also a

(45:28):
definition simply as well.

Speaker 8 (45:30):
Haven't missed.

Speaker 12 (45:31):
Oh, last, but not least.

Speaker 8 (45:33):
It also is a lot of hair, which is interesting.
It is a lock of.

Speaker 12 (45:39):
Hair curly hair usually, but doesn't have to be.

Speaker 8 (45:42):
That's another definition.

Speaker 6 (45:44):
It's also a location in Belize.

Speaker 3 (45:47):
It's also another ancient Meso American observatory and sinista.

Speaker 6 (45:53):
I mean, there's we can't speculate at this point.

Speaker 5 (45:57):
We have to do the work to be able.

Speaker 6 (45:59):
To read your answers, and we have to go to everyone,
tell them who.

Speaker 10 (46:04):
You've talked to party to show them we're trying to
do them work.

Speaker 6 (46:07):
Yeah. So I've I've reached out uh to multiple.

Speaker 3 (46:11):
Uh uh experts in the meso American uh ritualistic sacrifice,
and I've been able to have conversations with them.

Speaker 6 (46:19):
One will go on the record, and they've been.

Speaker 3 (46:22):
You know, very helpful with that side of things, and
we uh and we'll rer even that information to you
in future episodes.

Speaker 6 (46:30):
I think I've got time for one more question.

Speaker 10 (46:38):
She's scarce more than anyone else, so and very excited.

Speaker 17 (46:43):
For what you guys are doing and the responsibility feel
you need to have, which is great.

Speaker 18 (46:48):
But for the content creators out there, I know myself,
how are you wanting them to responsively put out this quote?

Speaker 15 (46:55):
Like?

Speaker 19 (46:55):
What are you wanting them to focus on when they're
posting ie?

Speaker 12 (46:59):
So I've thinke my I bost on social media, I know,
kind of to secure the parameters that you're looking for.

Speaker 6 (47:05):
That's a really good question.

Speaker 12 (47:07):
Amazing questions.

Speaker 6 (47:08):
Do you do you want to have?

Speaker 15 (47:11):
Sure?

Speaker 5 (47:11):
I would?

Speaker 12 (47:13):
I did ask the fellows. I said, is there a
way when this goes out into the world that we
can protect people?

Speaker 15 (47:20):
You know.

Speaker 12 (47:21):
I mean, it's it's an intense image for people to
see all of a sudden, and so.

Speaker 9 (47:25):
I was hoping that we could find a way to
provide a little disclaimer. I d you know what I mean,
That helps us, It helps my heart, and it helps
protect people I think of it.

Speaker 12 (47:39):
That's a really great question.

Speaker 8 (47:41):
I don't know the full capacity of how to answer it.

Speaker 9 (47:43):
All I know is I thought, I can't imagine this
just appearing in my and I painted it and like,
and it would freak me out if I just saw that.

Speaker 8 (47:50):
So how do we handle that?

Speaker 12 (47:52):
That's that's my wish is that and that's what we're
trying to do is have a little discover you know,
but uh to a more deeper content specifics, I'm not sure.

Speaker 5 (48:03):
Yet, but we do have sorry out. We do have
these postcards that we have right now that on the
back we have a few QR codes. One is to
a link on our website that will have all the
information that we've just discussed about the sizing and the
framing of the actual photo, which we think is important.

Speaker 10 (48:25):
And we have two more QR.

Speaker 5 (48:28):
Codes to have those pages and our picture on which
any donations would be gladly accepted to help us continue
to search. But the main thing is we're going to
continue to populate the top QR code and build that
out so all the information will be available for people
to go and do that. So if you are content creator,

(48:48):
please try to push people towards that, if you have questions.

Speaker 6 (48:54):
All right, thank you so much, thank you.

Speaker 5 (49:03):
Okay, Well here at stage, nice out of my computer,
I'll become a disembodied at the best.

Speaker 10 (49:12):
I'd like to invite my research team up.

Speaker 8 (49:15):
To the stage.

Speaker 20 (49:18):
Taylor, Hello, good are you? My phone's been a buzz today.
I don't know if you're a where you're out west,
but here on the east. One of the more infamous
cases from Arkansas, the Morgan Nick disappearance, just had a

(49:40):
big break that was announced about an hour ago. So
there's good news on that front. They unfortunately not found her,
but they but they have physical evidence that has narrowed
their their suspect pulled down to one individual who they
know they have identified the man. Unfortunately he's passed away,

(50:02):
but now asking the public for help.

Speaker 5 (50:04):
So that was some good news.

Speaker 20 (50:07):
And I'm wondering what kind of news you have.

Speaker 4 (50:12):
Yeah, I'm unfamiliar with that case.

Speaker 5 (50:14):
Have you guys covered it before we did?

Speaker 20 (50:17):
I want to say maybe four or five years ago, okay,
but yeah, that one was well, they're all I was gonna.

Speaker 5 (50:27):
Say that was a strange case, but they're all strange calases. Yeah, yes,
So with there's something I'd definitely like to ask you
in absolutely zero issues if you're uninterested, but basically, and
this is off the record at the moment, if you
can definitely talk to the captain about it, but nobody
else at the moment, if that's okay, okay. So we

(50:51):
are on the nineteenth, We're about to release a new
piece of evidence at the Berkshire Podcast Festival, and we're
working with an artist, Heather Horton Whedon, and she was
able to recreate Israel's cell photo or a photo of
israel cell after he committed suicide. And there are some

(51:13):
new writings on the wall that he wrote in blood
that nobody knows about. And what we'd like to do
is we'd also like to have somebody read Israel's suicide
note and to include that in the episode, so that
way people can have the context of all the different
pieces of information that are involved in that case or

(51:35):
just in that one moment he was found with the
suicide note in his cell soaked in blood, and then
all these writings on the wall as well. So we
were wondering if you were interested in maybe reading his
suicide notes, and even if you want to do it
sort of like a beginning of one of your episodes,
if you want, like the captain to do music and
you to do the reading, or we can do just

(51:58):
reading if you don't, if captain does want to be involved, yes,
that's pretty much the goal.

Speaker 14 (52:02):
So yeah, so all right, well, just keep me up
to speed on the what that note looks like once
you guys are done with it, and then when you
meet it by and you don't have to get that
information to me right away because I'm going to talk
to you.

Speaker 20 (52:17):
Again on Friday.

Speaker 5 (52:19):
Awesome, man, I appreciate it, and we'll talk to your Friday.

Speaker 15 (52:22):
Wonderful.

Speaker 20 (52:23):
Take care of have a great day.

Speaker 5 (52:23):
Yeah you too, thanks Acon.

Speaker 8 (52:25):
Twisted Mind of a serial killer.

Speaker 21 (52:28):
Israel Keys.

Speaker 5 (52:31):
Left investigators stunned by telling them he's a serial killer,
textbook serial killer.

Speaker 21 (52:41):
He took pleasure in the act of taking a life.

Speaker 22 (52:45):
There is nothing probably greater than holding the power and
control of someone's life and looking him in the eye
and being able to control all of that is intoxicating
to serial killers.

Speaker 19 (52:59):
Text book serial Killer Israel.

Speaker 3 (53:02):
Keys to.

Speaker 21 (53:05):
Send the dying to wait for their death and the
comfort of retirement homes justify say it is for the best.
It's best for you, So they're fate. You'll not know.
Turn a blind eye back to the screen. Soak in
your reality shows, stand in front of your mirror, and
you preen in a plastic castle you call home. Land

(53:29):
of the Free, Land of the lie, Land of scheme,
American eyes. Consume what you don't need, stars you idolize,
pursue what you admit is a dream. Then it's American die.
Get in your big car so you can get to
work fast on roads made of dinosaur bones. Punch in

(53:53):
on the clock, and sit on your ass playing stupid
ass games on your phone. Paper on your wall says
you got smarts. The test that you took told you so,
but you would still crawl like the vermin you are.
Once your precious power grids blown. Land of the Free,
Land of the lye, Land of the scheme, American eyes,

(54:18):
global overuse as you over colonize. Where will you go,
you clever little worm. If you bleed your host dry
back in your ride, the night is still young. Street
lights push back the black and neat rose. Off to
the right, a graveyard appears, lines of stones, bodies molder below.

(54:41):
Turn away quick, bob your head to the beat. As
straight through the stop sign you roll. Loaded truck with
lights off, slams into your broadside, your flesh smashed as
metal explodes. You may have been free, you'd loved living
your life. Fate had its own scheme. Crushed like a bug.

(55:02):
You still die soon. Now you'll join those ranks of dead.
Your ashes, the wind will soon blow. Family and friends
will shed a few tears. Pretend it's off to heaven
you go. But the reality is you were just bones
and meat, and with your brain dyed, also your soul.

(55:25):
A nightmare you called a dream. While other cultures you despised,
attacked countries who didn't provoke America believed the lie. Money
was your only scheme for it. You pumped the future dry.
And now you are the punchline, and you were the
joke American died. Now that I have you held tight,

(55:49):
I will tell you a story. Speak soft in your
ear so you know that it's true. You are my
love at first sight, and though you are scared to
be near me. My words penetrate your thoughts now in
an intimate prelude. I look in your eyes. They were
so dark, warm and trusting, as though you had not

(56:10):
a worry or care. The more guileless the gaze, the
better potential to fill up those pools with your fear.
You face framed in dark curls like a portrait, the
sun shone through highlights of red. What color I wonder,
and how straight will it turn? Plastered back with the

(56:31):
sweat of your dread, your wet lips were a promise
of a secret. Unspoke nervous laugh as it burst like
a pulse of blood from your throat. There will be
no more laughter here. I feel your body tense up.
My hand now on your shoulder. Your eyes search away

(56:54):
out of this small dark room. Forget the lady called luck.
She does not abide near me for her powers. Don't
extend to those who are doomed, You, precious pet, with
that I could keep you. Let you be the master
of your own fate. What I wonder would you willingly

(57:15):
stoop to, knowing full well what's at stake? My pretty
captive butterfly, colorful wings in my hands, smears. Could I
somehow repaint them with punishment and tears? Violent metamorphosis emerge,
my dark mothed princess. I would come often and worship
on the altar of your flesh. You shudder now with

(57:39):
revulsion and try to shrink far from me. I'll have
you tied down and begging to become my Stockholm sweetie. Okay,
talk is over. Words are placid and weak. Back it
up with action where it all comes off cheap. Watch
close while I work. Now, feel the electric shock of
my touch. Open my trembling flower, your petals, I'll crush.

(58:06):
This is Nick and the Captain from True Crime Garage
and you are listening to somewhere in the pines.

Speaker 9 (58:16):
H m hm.

Speaker 10 (58:28):
Hm hm.

Speaker 18 (58:38):
M m m m m m m m.

Speaker 5 (58:47):
M m.

Speaker 11 (58:51):
Yeah, yeah, do you want do you want to talk
to her too?

Speaker 18 (58:53):
Or if she wanted to address the question as well,
it's more than happen.

Speaker 3 (58:56):
Well, I think that a lot of the questions we
can talk a little bit, but a lot of the
questions we're gonna us an episode like upcoming up.

Speaker 5 (59:03):
What's your name?

Speaker 21 (59:03):
Kim Kim Jakota, Hi Kim.

Speaker 18 (59:08):
So the question I had was in viewing the original
photo or in Heather's recreation of it, was there some
sort of conclusion or understanding or suspicions about which set
of text was created in his blood first?

Speaker 6 (59:23):
Dude, Yeah, good question.

Speaker 5 (59:25):
At the campfires that we have talked a lot about that.

Speaker 6 (59:30):
I have a theory and other people have theories. I
think that we need to just examine it longer.

Speaker 3 (59:38):
And that's definitely like on our list of things to
unpacked unpacking.

Speaker 18 (59:44):
Okay, yeah, cool, Yeah, it was one of the first
things that popped in my mind looking at kind of
the recreation that you guys have done. A fact, I mean,
can I look at it behind you?

Speaker 5 (59:55):
Yeah, I would think, yeah, I'm gonna found up.

Speaker 18 (59:59):
It's kind of hard to say because it kind of
depends on how far the blood is coming out from
the wall, right, if he's leaning over to write it
and there's this puddle already there, or if that mess
kind of was created like in the process of dipping
into what I could only describe as his like milk
carton blood paint troughs.

Speaker 5 (01:00:17):
But if this bench is no larger than eighteen.

Speaker 18 (01:00:20):
Inches, okay, then I don't know, I part of me
wants to say the lower down portion because if he
was getting in there low No, I don't know. It's
really hard, but like I can go either way with it,
because either he's working top down and creating this larger
piece with the two fingers, or he's starting in the

(01:00:42):
lower spot and then moving up from there. But then
I also wonder, like, because the karacol karousol karacol is
just such a cryptic thing, is that the complete statement
that he was looking to make? Or did he draw
that last and then he's bleeding out? And I'm not
to be bred about it, but like, did he pass
before finishing a drawing? You see this swipe? Like is

(01:01:04):
that weakness in his body as he's still trying to
finish writing something? I don't I don't know.

Speaker 10 (01:01:09):
It's I feel like you should hang out around the campfire.

Speaker 18 (01:01:13):
I would love to hang around the campfire, but I am.

Speaker 3 (01:01:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 18 (01:01:16):
It's just it makes you wonder.

Speaker 6 (01:01:18):
Those are really good observations. That's all stuff that.

Speaker 3 (01:01:22):
We've literally like had this exact conversation.

Speaker 23 (01:01:26):
Are we positive that he was finished with that message?
Because that sea could have been an S and it
could say Sarah or that l could have been another
turning into another letter like you, Why are we the
first people to see that? They want? The FBI wants

(01:01:49):
the public to see it, right, they want we are
to share on social media? Right you will? And I
guess the idea is to get as many people to
see it, yes, right, yes, And that goes back to
my original question. If the point is to get as
many people to see it as possible, why are we

(01:02:12):
this little group the first people to see it and
the FBI isn't releasing it media.

Speaker 15 (01:02:20):
I'm Laura, got nice to meet you. Do you work
with any librarians on these cases? Have you made any
acquaintances with librarians? No, librarians specialize in research. Chelsea is
a library director. I'm a librarian as well. There might
be other librarians here because we get excited about solving
problems and researching things. And so I didn't know. I

(01:02:44):
don't have a good sense of if like we're in
the minority or if there are other people like us here.

Speaker 17 (01:02:53):
Okay, my name is Chelsea, So I live in New Hampshire.
I do don genealogy and I do research for a
Murdcery Told podcast. I was curious so your quote your
co host had said that you were at Arthur's Falls
the other week.

Speaker 9 (01:03:07):
Here have you?

Speaker 18 (01:03:08):
I don't know.

Speaker 17 (01:03:08):
I don't know if you guys do like more of
the like investigations, like kind of like Josh does. But like,
have you ever heard of a woman named Louise cha
putt on thetrayal she was murdered?

Speaker 10 (01:03:23):
Okay, okay, I.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
I haven't never seen a response to a live show
like everyone silent with their phones like that.

Speaker 3 (01:03:31):
It was really cool. It's also good.

Speaker 5 (01:03:34):
Yeah, hopefully they gets still word.

Speaker 8 (01:03:35):
I mean, I love the beating sounds weird.

Speaker 15 (01:03:40):
To say because this looks aw saft. Yeah.

Speaker 18 (01:03:45):
I like hearing the story behind it about how you
don't want it to become like a.

Speaker 17 (01:03:49):
Utilization because if you just put an image online, that's
what people.

Speaker 1 (01:03:55):
That's really good that you're on the record saying that too,
because then you have a back all if somebody does yea, hey,
yuh look I just said that out.

Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
If she didn't come around, then we wouldn't be here,
oh absolute, because we just don't know.

Speaker 3 (01:04:09):
Thanks.

Speaker 10 (01:04:10):
I don't know about that.

Speaker 5 (01:04:12):
I have no idea what you guys are going.

Speaker 8 (01:04:13):
To talk about it.

Speaker 15 (01:04:14):
Oh cool?

Speaker 5 (01:04:14):
That cool yea, it's been months. It's been it's been
a lot.

Speaker 3 (01:04:20):
Can I look it up?

Speaker 15 (01:04:21):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:04:22):
If there's one thing we've learned in the last few
months is that in podcasting nothing is linear. The theories, tips, critiques,
and storytelling are all in constant motion, running parallel until
an idea breaks loose and crashes right into an episode.
You can plan for the best, expect the worst, and

(01:04:44):
still come out on the other end with a completely
new perspective. We hope that behind the scenes montage gave
you a glimpse into the chaos and excitement. Over the
course of the next few episodes. In the mid season
mini series we're calling Karacol, we'll begin to break down
what we've found over the last five months of the
thought and care that we put into this new evidence.

(01:05:04):
Starting with a collaboration with The Consult, one of our
favorite podcasts, we'll begin to break down the information from
Israel's cell, not only the moments leading up to his suicide,
but also the other dramatic events that took place while
he was in custody, trying to understand what this all means,
and giving you the opportunity to connect and participate. We

(01:05:26):
named part one of this miniseries, The Artist, because this
experience reminded us of a quote that could not be
more relevant. The quote is from retired FBI special agent
John Douglas. He created and managed the FBI's profiler program,
now called the Behavioral Analysis Unit or the BAU, and
interviewed some of the most infamous serial killers of our time.

(01:05:49):
We felt it was appropriate for Heather to be the
one to read this quote, So with that, here's Heather
Horton Whedon reading the John Douglas quote that we want
to be ingrained in your psyche over the next few episodes.
As you build your own theories.

Speaker 8 (01:06:04):
To understand the artist, you must study his art.

Speaker 3 (01:06:29):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Somewhere on the Pines.
If you'd like to support the show, you can join
us on Patreon at patreon dot com, forward slash Somewhere
in the Pines. If you'd like to review Heather's rendering
of the cell photograph, you can do so on our
website Someonerethpines dot com, slash cracle dash photo. We'd also

(01:06:52):
like to give a very special thank you to our
Patreon producers, Heather Horton Whedon, Nicole Guzman, Colleen Sullivan, Lynley Tushoff, Otterman,
Caitlin James, Stephanie Maximo, Brian Hannah, Kathy Nation, Ali and Pink.

Speaker 19 (01:07:42):
Fantastic.

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Uh what are you thinking about?

Speaker 9 (01:07:49):
Uh?

Speaker 24 (01:07:50):
Right now, I'm just thinking about how many different paths
and lives and things came together for this event between
like Josh and Dakota and you and Heather and Josh
h and Halla, And it's just crazy how many different
lives intersect into this event and into this one kind

(01:08:14):
of moment.

Speaker 19 (01:08:16):
It's very it's really strange, and I think I'm also
just like, like there's this whole you know, like.

Speaker 24 (01:08:28):
This idea that you have composts or the classic like
lotus that rises out of the muck, but you have
this thing of beauty that comes from something that's as
awful as it gets. And so it's strange to feel
really good and really positive and engaged.

Speaker 19 (01:08:44):
And I think that's one of the things that someone
who's like.

Speaker 24 (01:08:46):
Absolutely new to the true crime scene and I've just
kind of done like mostly fiction, to actually feel like
something like this feels like so much more meaningful and
to have kind of an entry way into it as
opposed to like previously just feeling really that it's just
kind of morbid and exploitative and all these other things.

(01:09:06):
And instead of going like, well, actually watching movies and
TV shows that have no basis in reality, there's actually
I can actually see that as being even worse in
some ways.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:09:20):
Whereas fiction might create the dark.

Speaker 3 (01:09:24):
For you to bring the light from, yeah, true prime
in a.

Speaker 5 (01:09:28):
Lot of ways is taking something that's like the dark
is already there, yeah, and then finding a way to bring.

Speaker 6 (01:09:33):
Light to that.

Speaker 19 (01:09:34):
Yeah, and that it is.

Speaker 24 (01:09:38):
I mean, my takeaway just from watching this first panel
is just like it's it's essentially impossible to make it.
I think that's I think I keep thinking about Israel
Keys in this extreme isolation, to be so isolated, isolated
even from his own family, and then to have and
just and it's just.

Speaker 19 (01:09:56):
I don't know how to really wrestle with.

Speaker 24 (01:10:01):
How the juxtaposition of this all this community that's brought
up to try and kind of right all the wrongs
he did in isolation. And I think especially when we're
talking about a painting about suicide, yeah, you know, and
and and that extreme of life, it's just it's just
really I think I'm just I think I'm really thinking
about like the fulfillment I feel from contributing to the project. Yeah,

(01:10:28):
and it's really and yeah it's cool.

Speaker 10 (01:10:31):
Yeah, no, And it's funny how you and I both
kind of just stumbled into this.

Speaker 3 (01:10:35):
Just from knowing Josh in Nikohea, not really from any
personal interest in the subject matter.

Speaker 24 (01:10:43):
Well, and it's it's actually, I mean, not to make
too much of something, but I met Josh as random
as it gets because I needed a window in my garage,
in the camera, and that the symbols of camera and
window so loaded like its and like a stranger and.

Speaker 19 (01:11:01):
All these other kinds of things.

Speaker 15 (01:11:02):
Yeah, it is.

Speaker 19 (01:11:04):
It's just strange.

Speaker 24 (01:11:05):
But it's just like and I think that's I think
maybe I'm thinking about, like when I heard the episode
about you know that went into he's talking about some
of his victims and just how he has kind of
a methodology or had or seemed to have a methodology,
but how much of it seems to random. Yeah, and
on the other side of the equation, as people are
coming together trying to kind of do good, it's all

(01:11:26):
it's just a random in a way.

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S01E07 - Caracol - The Artist

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