S01E10 - Caracol - Satanism

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Hi Everyone,
In today's episode, we chat with Heather Horton Whedon and Jim Freeman about the role Satanism may have played in Israel's crimes. 

Featured Guests:
Jim Freeman
Heather Horton Whedon

Resources:
The FBI files
The Church of Satan by Anton LaVey
Stuff You Should Know - How Satanism Works

And as always, a very special Thank you to our Patreon producers:

Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Colleen Sullivan
Attar Mann
Stephanie Maksimow
Katelyn James
Kathy Nation
Brian Hanna
Trista
Ally
Pink
Dale Akstin
and
Corey Deatly

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a studio both and collaboration.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Somewhere in the Pines is a serial podcast containing adult content,
including descriptions of violence, sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion
is strongly advised.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Thank you for joining us for another installment in the
Chara Call series. In this episode, we continue our investigation
into the Key Cell writings by diving into Israel's attachment
to Satanism and it's changing philosophies.

Speaker 4 (00:46):
I'm Dakota and I'm Joshua. Welcome to Somewhere in the Pines,
Episode ten, Satanism.

Speaker 5 (01:08):
I'm excited. I've got my notes right here. This fellow,
this Jim, Jim right. Yes, he seems very eloquent in
his message. I reread his comment and I get a
good vibe.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Yeah, same same here. Yeah, okay, have.

Speaker 5 (01:27):
You been lurking there?

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Good?

Speaker 5 (01:32):
I expect nothing less. He can turn my video onto Hi.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
How you did?

Speaker 6 (01:37):
I realized I just should have alerked for a while, butting
overplay my hand. I don't know how much I have
to offer you, but I'm not the devout Satanist I
might have given the impression.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
Jim, this is this is Heather.

Speaker 5 (01:58):
I loved I've been enjoying your eloquent comments. I was
very I was quite I was moved by them. I
was like, this guy sounds cool, So I'm really glad
to be chatting with you.

Speaker 6 (02:10):
Nice to meet you. Thank you. That intimidates me even
more hearing that, but I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
Heather was the one that painted the rendition of the
Israel cell. So I'm not sure if you've been caught
to date on that, because I think you reached out beforehand.

Speaker 6 (02:23):
Yeah. No, I was aware of that, and Heather an
amazing piece of art.

Speaker 4 (02:29):
Thank you.

Speaker 6 (02:30):
I was thinking, you know, even without knowing the backdrop
of what's behind it with Israel keys, just as a
piece of artwork, it was very impactful. I mean, I'm very,
very impressed.

Speaker 4 (02:44):
This is Jim Freeman. After listening to a previous episode,
he sent us some comments that caught her attention. We
asked him to spend some time with us to talk
about the case and more specifically Satanism.

Speaker 6 (02:57):
Where are you now, math, I'm in the Northwest now.
I lived in Boston for years, but I've been in
Seattle for almost forty years now.

Speaker 5 (03:07):
So oh wow, amazing.

Speaker 6 (03:09):
I had a former career doing environmental work molessly watershed management,
salmon habitat restoration stuff, and hit a wall in that
and decided to take a year off and study some music.
I hadn't really played anything before then, and just one
thing unexpectedly steamrolled into another and as they ended up

(03:32):
having a major life change and it went on an
amazing ride for a while.

Speaker 4 (03:36):
So sorry, Jim, I'm sorry to jump in here. I'm
kind of curious with the seven restoration were you Were
you a part of any of the Elwaw River restoration.

Speaker 6 (03:45):
No, it was definitely where that my route into that.
I went to grad school at UW emphasizing environmental management work,
but it's through there been planning program there and my
first job out of college was just a great experience

(04:06):
working for the Tale of Tribes for their fisheries department,
and so I was involved with a lot of work
that they were doing. At the time, there was a
state program doing a water quality protection work for all
a Puget Sound. It was called the Fugere Sound water
Quality Management Authority Group that the all of the Pugeit

(04:28):
Sound tribes were pretty heavily involved in.

Speaker 4 (04:31):
Very cool. Yeah, so uh there, I guess doing the
painting got pretty involved in trying to figure out what,
you know, what this could all mean. And so whenever
we were in the Northeast we saw your comment, we
were all together at the same time. We're just interested
in just basically just the very base level and figure
to give you the opportunity to kind of hint at

(04:54):
what you were what you were talking about, and well, yeah,
that question.

Speaker 6 (04:57):
So okay, again, I don't know how much value I
can offer you. But I actually worked out just before
this call and read listened to the podcast episode that
precipitated me writing that just to kind of refresh my
memory what triggered it, and I kinda did get to that,

(05:20):
but I had always in once I got turned on
to the whole Israel Keys thing and went down the
True Crime BIS rabbit hole and everything, and you know,
searched out all the FBI interviews and went through all
that stuff. It always stood out to me that most

(05:41):
people were very quick to dismiss the kind of satan
aspect of stuff for the potential influence of Satanism on
Israel Keys earlier early on. And it was really the
first time in that podcast episode that you guys had
where it was kind of brought up more overtly, and
so that's that's mainly what I was partially responding to

(06:05):
was that that, I mean, oh God, you know, I'm
not the only one that sort of thought that. At
the same time that the small distinction I was trying
to make is there's kind of and this is an oversimplification,
and this is based on me not having much background
in this at all, So you know, take it worth
a grain of salt. But I had in the eighties

(06:30):
when I was going through my own kind of religion
search and looking at different religions, and one of the
things that I did was read the Satanic Bible and
some other Satanic stuff along with every religion there was.
It wasn't like I was into Satanism or anything, but
the thing that stood out at me and reading the
Satanic Bible is there there is the whole area of

(06:51):
Satanism that doesn't involve all the blood and gore and
the you know, quote unquote evil stuff trying to conjure
up power through praising Satan that type of thing. And
so what stood out to me with what Keys had
said in the interviews, and you guys have mentioned this
as well, that, you know, early on, and I'll kind

(07:12):
of draw the line as let's just say pre military
because it's kind of easier to make that distinction. He was,
you know, young, He's trying to figure out who he was,
what he believed, what he didn't believe, and and I
think he may have, you know, probably had dabbled in
doing Satanic ritual stuff.

Speaker 7 (07:33):
Yeah, I was convinced that I had it all figured
out at the time.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
I was into a lot of weird stuff back then, was.

Speaker 7 (07:47):
I mean, I thought I was a Satanist and stuff.

Speaker 1 (07:49):
I mean, had a lot of different philosophy than I
do now.

Speaker 7 (07:53):
So when Yeah, so I I thought.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
I had a lot of stuff figured out, and then
you know, when it.

Speaker 7 (08:05):
Actually came time to do it, I yeah, at the time,
I I it was just I just couldn't follow through
that on on my part.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
And you know, for the next.

Speaker 7 (08:23):
Four years after that, I would think about it, and
you know, change change money, and my philosophy changed on
why I wanted to do it and stuff front, how

(08:45):
did that change.

Speaker 8 (08:46):
From what and what?

Speaker 7 (08:48):
Well, I just I mean, at the time, I thought
that I was just into that whole Satanist symbolism, the
type stuff, and I thought that was the reason I
was doing it.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
And then over the next.

Speaker 7 (09:11):
Few years I realized that I didn't really even believe
in that stuff.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
I just at the time I was just using that as.

Speaker 7 (09:23):
Justification or reason or something, and that wasn't really the
reason I wanted to do it. It was just because
I wanted to do it. And then so once I
kind of came to terms with that that there wasn't
it wasn't a higher power, if you will, that.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
I was going to do it for. It was just
something I wanted to do. That made it a lot easier.

Speaker 8 (09:45):
So you weren't doing it for the devil or Satan or.

Speaker 7 (09:49):
That's what I Yeah, but at the time that stuff
meant a lot to me, or I thought it did.
Like I said, I wanted to believe. Then I tried
really hard. I thought that if I, you know, did
all the things that these books said, and you know,
did all the right rituals or whatever, that I would

(10:10):
get some kind of confirmation that there was satan or
that I was doing something special. But the more I
read about it, the less it's convinced I became.

Speaker 8 (10:21):
So so you never had that happened.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
I never did that.

Speaker 7 (10:24):
No, but like that girl was That's why, like I said,
I probably would have choked her, just because I was
afraid of getting caught. But I had like all the
knives and stuff with me.

Speaker 8 (10:37):
To do blood.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
Well, you can't like all the.

Speaker 7 (10:43):
All the rituals that I was reading at the time,
and you know, it's all.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
It's like blood, blood letting and stuff. It's not you
don't have strangle people.

Speaker 6 (10:56):
My my question would be how did he come across
in information given his background, you know, how isolated he was.
He I'm sure he had access to libraries, but it
would have been a library in a rural area, you know.
I'm just kind of curious about that. How he would
have come up with information specifically about Satanism that wasn't

(11:20):
through the teachings of his family, you know. So and
I'm sure, you know, being a teenager and obviously a psychopath,
but he probably sought out those things. But but how
he got access to him and learned about it and
maybe employed him, who knows, you know, I don't know,

(11:40):
but he and this is an obvious thing. Everybody sort
of picked up on this where he says he talks
about in the interviews how that, you know, something sort
of changed in him where he kind of set aside
that maybe there was some influence or some reason why
he had the desires and wanted to act out the

(12:01):
way he was, and he just sort of accepted that
that was a part of himself. And that's what always
stood out to me. And also in that episode, you
guys had had some discussion on this. I don't think
he had all blamed any of his acts on anything,
you know, no external factor, right. I think he more

(12:23):
or less accepted that that's who he was, and I
don't think he cared. You know that that was really
kind of the point that I was trying to make that.
I think there's in terms of any way that Satan
hasn't kind of played a role in his activities. I
think there's an an a B in regards to that.

(12:47):
And after the military, if he fooled around with any
type of Satanic imagery or doing any type of I
don't know, ritualistic things, we don't know at all. Well,
how he may have killed most of his victims. If
he did employ anything, it was probably more to get
his kicks off in some way or try to induce

(13:09):
sphere it's just my take on it. Later on, I
don't know if that makes any sense.

Speaker 4 (13:14):
Or yeah, that makes total sense. Do you One thing
I've been kind of curious about is how after the military,
because I feel I agree with a lot of what
you just said. There After the military is when it
sounds like he did most of his branding, which would
be like an upset inverted cross. Yeah, okay, Pentagram. Any

(13:35):
thoughts on why he would still be holding on to
that imagery. I just don't even know what I'm trying
to ask. If it's if he's still holding on to
some of that the philosophy, or if it's just you
think just that imagery is so impactful that it's important
to him.

Speaker 6 (13:50):
I think it's more of the industry. That's just my
take on it. And you're talking about the branding that
he did on himself. Yes, yes, because that's one question
I had. Maybe you guys at this point have more
information than I've come across. I've had the impression that
he may have branded some victims, and I don't know

(14:11):
if he did, or if there'd be any significance to that.

Speaker 4 (14:15):
I don't think that there are any brands on Samantha
Koenig's body and that's the only one that.

Speaker 6 (14:20):
They've Yeah, yeah, I know that. Yeah, And from what
was described, there wasn't any indication that he did that.
I've always been curious what his intent with the camp
stove was with the couriers. You know that the mind
can go to all sorts of dark places, and what
he might have intended to do with that. But he

(14:41):
made I felt like in the interviews he made a
big point or not on purpose, but he mentioned the
camp stove several times, and how you know, at one
point there is a discussion that it got knocked over
and he wasn't able to do what he wanted. And
I'm and when I was listening to that, I'm like, Okay,

(15:02):
what the what the heck was he intending to do?

Speaker 8 (15:04):
Same?

Speaker 5 (15:05):
I'm like, why did he have bottles of water with
them and a camp stove with the couriers?

Speaker 6 (15:09):
Yeah, that was going on there. But anyway, to get
back to the main question, I believe it was him
doing that to himself was mainly just an imagery thing.
I don't tend to believe that he felt that it
was in any way, you know, bonding him to Satan

(15:31):
or giving him an allegiance to some evil power.

Speaker 9 (15:36):
I don't know quite a bit of the interrogation footage unfortunately.

Speaker 6 (15:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (15:41):
Yeah, Do you think that as far as like the
satanic imagery, like, because there's different levels of Satanism. There's
the you know, the probably the highest level where you
think that Satan is the almighty deity, or there's an
atheistic level where you don't believe in God or or Satan,
you know, and then there's the you know, a level

(16:03):
below that, which is you just see the the satanistic
characteristics in people. Do you think that from watching the
interrogations are like just kind of familiarizing yourself with him,
that any of those stand out of what where he
lies on that scale.

Speaker 6 (16:22):
Yeah, definitely be in my opinion, And I fall that
way probably because okay, you can't trust anything that he
says most of the time. So that being said, he
said directly that he viewed himself as an atheist in
one of the interviews. I don't remember which one it was,

(16:43):
and so I kind of take that to heart and
that that's the box that I put in. This is
the one that you described to be.

Speaker 5 (16:50):
Your comments have inspired me to impbe I could not
find the Satanic Bible in my an audible, but I
did read a book on Levey, oh okay and Leavey
and philosophy about Satanism, and you just mentioned atheism. And
when he said to the FBI, I guess I kind
of just became I'm an atheist. Well, I did not

(17:13):
know that Satanism did not actually it was not actually
a theology, it's a philosophy. And you like the stuff
I've learned, have been cramming about Satanism pre this interview.
It's interesting. I learned a lot about it. And so
when he said I'm an atheist, it's he was very
clever about how he lied or told the truth, I think,

(17:35):
And I think by saying I'm an atheist doesn't necessarily
say he's not a Satanist, because atheism is really at
the heart of it, isn't it. They don't believe in
a deity, They believe in an anti Establishmentism's anti establishment.

Speaker 6 (17:47):
I also view it as it's a philosophy of putting
the individual first, right, and it is kind of how
I looked at it, like, yeah, very much. You know,
there's the Christian thing. I'm older than you guys, so
I go back to the Gail Sayers movie. I don't
know if any of you people know who. Gail Sayers

(18:08):
is a football player who died early of cancer. And
he always used to say, it's sort of this Christian
thing that I put my God first, my family second,
myself third, right, and so I've always kind of viewed
this Satanist things more. I've put myself first.

Speaker 9 (18:27):
Well, that's an alignment also in alignment with him saying
that maybe I'm not I don't believe in Satanism or
any of that stuff, but I just wanted to do it,
so I was going to do it. That's putting himself first.

Speaker 6 (18:39):
Yeah, exactly, it's justifying for him. It would have been
just a fine a hedonistic lifestyle, right. You know, one
could argue that one could be a Satanist and lead
of completely virtuous life. Right if you place value on
your own self esteem, on feeling good from doing good things, correct,

(19:04):
you could place yourself first. You know, you go out
of your way to make sure that you're a healthy
individual in your world. You know you can you can
be a virtuous Satanist. I would argue, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 5 (19:19):
I think it's I don't know Jim how much you've
like And I again, I'm just like just dove in.
So I have many notes, but I haven't really call
asced them truly, But please clarify if I'm saying something
wrong here. But it sounds like the Satanists creative isolation
in a space time warp possible. Mind frame is one

(19:39):
of silence and subtlety and one of the greatest tools
of the Satanic trade. This, combined with honest self knowledge
and a proud appreciation of one's own kinks and complications,
makes for a good solid Satanist. It's interesting that it
seems as though creating a sac creating a special space

(20:03):
in which you can have endless freedom, which seems paradoxical,
is kind of central.

Speaker 6 (20:08):
I agree, I guess. Kind of bringing this back to Keys,
I mean, the question is whether or not he held
this stuff close to his vest or it was just
you know, his own philosophy that he that he would

(20:29):
argue that he it's his own philosophy, you know. And
I'm sure I'm sure he's read He's read the Satanic
Bible and other things, right, so he was aware of
these things, and whether it went much beyond being aware
and plucking from it what appealed to him.

Speaker 4 (20:50):
I don't know, do you know something about the knives
in your in your message?

Speaker 6 (20:55):
Ah? Yeah, okay, this is a thing too that well, God,
there's there's so much to to this side of things,
but okay, that the knives specifically, he mentioned in talking
about the dishoot situation about having knives with him, and

(21:16):
that just really stood out to me. And for a
number of reasons. One is, he was talking about disposing
of his victim in the outhouse, right, and so how
the heck would you be doing anything with knives in
that situation without making a horrific mess? I I I

(21:39):
just right, I mean I just to me that that
just logistically kind of stood stood out to me. There
was no we don't have any indication that he prepped
the outhouse with a tarp or anything that we know of.
The indication is that he tied her up, according to
his reporting. But but the fact that he had a

(22:00):
knife kit there made me think that his full intent
might have involved some sort of ritualistic you know, knife work,
and that part of the thing. Again, there's so much
that we just don't know, right, So I try to
put myself in in his shoes, which I'm sure we

(22:21):
all have done. Like what was he thinking at this time? Right,
And we're all limited by who we are and not
being you know, you can only pretend to think so
much like a psychopath if you're not a psychopath. But
if I'm guessing if he did fool around with Satanism,
you know, he probably he was left to his own

(22:43):
devices as a later age teenager right for live kind
of by himself, separate from the family for periods of time.
I've got to believe that he hunted and tortured and
killed animals and did horrible things right animals. I'm assuming that,

(23:05):
And I'm guessing if he had information about Satanic worship
and rituals, he probably again, I'm putting myself in hissues.
I'm thinking, if I'm like fifteen, sixteen years old, I've
had this religious upbringing, all these people say there's all
this power with God. I'm reading that there could be
all this power with Satan. I'm going to try a
few things and see if anything happens, you know, and

(23:29):
whether or not, you know, he got to the point
of intending to carry out a specific ritual on a
human victim. The fact that he brought a knife kit
or claimed to have had a set of knives with
him at the Dishoot situation makes me think that he
was fooling around with that, trying to figure that stuff out.

Speaker 7 (23:55):
When I was living in Oregon, I was working on
his house for for my dad, and uh, there was
this river that was near the house.

Speaker 1 (24:10):
There was a lot of people would go down there.

Speaker 7 (24:14):
A pretty remote area, but there were beaches and stuff
along the river where people would go and hang out
for the day and stuff, and and that's I don't know,
so it gave me the idea, I guess there, you know,
there would be people hanging on the beaches, you know,

(24:37):
like younger girls and.

Speaker 1 (24:39):
Their swimsuits and stuff. And I think it was only
maybe eighteen at the time.

Speaker 8 (24:52):
So did you get away with something there?

Speaker 7 (24:54):
Yeah, never even got reported. I mean I didn't, Like
I said, I didn't have the nerve to.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
You know, take it to the next level.

Speaker 7 (25:10):
But but in my mind that's what I was gonna do.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Is it a pretty remote area that you were in.

Speaker 7 (25:24):
Yeah, it's called the Dishoots River and goes into the Columbia.
It's like just a little town out in the middle
of nowhere, but in the summer time, there were a
lot of people who would who would go up there
from Portland and stuff, and.

Speaker 8 (25:39):
Yeah, what I've been to that area. What's the name
of the town was there?

Speaker 1 (25:43):
Well, the town that the house I was working amazon
was Mopping.

Speaker 7 (25:48):
It's just downriver from uh Bend, I think, yeah, Bendorgan.

Speaker 8 (25:56):
And and what'd you do? Then?

Speaker 10 (25:58):
You said, just you thought about taking it to the
neck next level, but you obviously did some level something.

Speaker 8 (26:04):
You got away with him there?

Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah. Oh, there were these.

Speaker 7 (26:12):
Like a remote restrooms in these just random little beach
areas along the river. And I took somebody to one
of those, but I didn't, you know, I didn't kill her.

Speaker 1 (26:32):
What'd you do?

Speaker 7 (26:33):
Or it was just it was one of those uh
bathrooms where the door you could flock from the inside
and just like single, single restroom. And it was kind
of late, so I didn't know E would be along,

(27:01):
But I don't. I just pretty dumb when I lost
my ever winding. And I didn't kill her, right she was,

(27:27):
she was pretty scared. She was about my age, though,
I don't know. I guess I just decided not y,
I don't know not not to kill her.

Speaker 10 (27:38):
Yeah, how'd you okay sexually sold her?

Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, it's I mean, I scared her pretty bad. Mm.
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (27:56):
I guess maybe that's why she never I'd never read
anything about it.

Speaker 8 (28:03):
Do you have a weapon?

Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (28:06):
I was.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
I I was mostly in Denians at the time.

Speaker 7 (28:09):
But how'd you get her.

Speaker 8 (28:11):
To the bathroom?

Speaker 7 (28:14):
I'm I guess I'm assuming you didn't know her.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
Oh, I didn't know her.

Speaker 11 (28:22):
She was.

Speaker 7 (28:24):
She was out on the river and it's like a
river you can float down like people would do it
on inner tubes and stuff. And I was just hanging
out as this more remote spot. She was like the
last one in her group and grabbed her, pulled her

(28:53):
on the shore.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
She way black, dy.

Speaker 8 (29:00):
She was white.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
I thought you were right. I don't know how old
she was.

Speaker 7 (29:05):
She could have been anywhere from I don't know, fourteen
to eighteen.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
I don't know. Could you have like conversation with doing stuff?

Speaker 7 (29:12):
Did you her name or anything like that?

Speaker 1 (29:14):
No, Mom brunette. Uh, she was uh like dirty belongings.

Speaker 7 (29:27):
And that didn't get reported.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
I don't know. I never read anything. I was pretty
freaked out afterwards. I was sure that I was gonna
get in trouble. I don't know. I'm just paranoid.

Speaker 5 (29:40):
You didn't hear about it getting reported or no?

Speaker 11 (29:42):
I I remember like a week after that, I kept
going and checking, like all the newspapers and stuff I
didn't have.

Speaker 1 (29:53):
I wasn't into computers or anything at the time, so
but I never I never read anything about it.

Speaker 7 (30:00):
You you were eighteen, Yeah, eighteen or nineteen, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (30:06):
Was that the first time you sexual yourself with somebody? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (30:13):
I don't know.

Speaker 7 (30:13):
It depends what your definition is.

Speaker 1 (30:16):
Is that the first time you had sex with somebody
against their will?

Speaker 5 (30:23):
No?

Speaker 1 (30:23):
But I mean that was the first time I.

Speaker 7 (30:28):
Take it to that level, like had someone tied up,
you know, like was ready to actually kill do that?

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 8 (30:39):
What did that feel like? All right?

Speaker 7 (30:43):
I mean I had it all planned out, it was
you know, that was my intention. It was a regular Yeah,
it was a small bathroom.

Speaker 1 (30:58):
Didn't get used very much.

Speaker 7 (31:00):
They probably only cleaned it out maybe once a year
or something.

Speaker 10 (31:03):
So permanent type after him or read the can type after.

Speaker 7 (31:07):
Like a permanent like the ones you see at for
service campground with a big concrete tanking room.

Speaker 8 (31:16):
So you said they only cleaned it once a year.
What was that when you knew that going into it?

Speaker 1 (31:21):
Yeah, I knew about him, I knew how they worked.

Speaker 8 (31:23):
And what were your thoughts?

Speaker 1 (31:25):
Well, I was That's why I picked.

Speaker 7 (31:28):
I was gonna after I killed whoever or I was gonna,
I was waiting for someone who is pretty small, because
I was gonna dump them down in the tank.

Speaker 6 (31:42):
And at some point I'm guessing that either through killing
animals or you know, uh could be there were some
victims in Colville or somewhere that he was like, well, yeah,
you know, I got no power from you know, nothing
super natural has happened from me doing X, Y or Z.
So I think he probably shifted from thinking that there

(32:08):
may be something there. But again that the knives just
stood out to me, being that that young and thinking
that he would have knives with him, And the one
thing I want to throw out that's really stood out
to me in that interview, that particular interview, and I'm
surprised that it hasn't. I haven't heard anyone else really

(32:31):
bring it up. They asked him if that was his
first time, and they were indicating, or the question was
really posed indicating was that his first murder? Right, and
and it was kind of like, I forget the exact
you know, discussion, but it was kind of like, well,

(32:55):
indicating that that that was his first time doing something
like that. And then the question was like, well, have
you ever sexually assaulted someone or something before that or
and he said, and I forget the exact wording, something
like oh no. They asked, was that the first time
you had sex with someone without their consent? And he

(33:17):
said no, And so that really jumped out of me
and makes me wonder if there isn't some investigation there
that could turn over a rock or two.

Speaker 4 (33:32):
That's we actually asked, specially as in Halla about that
because it's it's because he said that this event was
so important to him and that he was very nervous
and thought that somebody's been knocking down his door right
after this event, very intense moment for him. But he
was very kind of flipping his response about assaulting someone
prior to that, and they said they didn'tink it might

(33:53):
be actually a sex worker, and and that surprised me,
for being so young that he was.

Speaker 6 (33:59):
It made me think it was probably a family member.

Speaker 9 (34:01):
That's what I thought as well, that's remember or someone
close to the family.

Speaker 6 (34:06):
Left really somebody that he'd in some way be able
to either manipulate or or the family would sweep it
under the rug or who or it could be. And
you know, I don't know at all much about that community,
right so, but I would think that if there was

(34:29):
a sexual assault between somebody and another family, that they
would handle it themselves, right YEA.

Speaker 4 (34:43):
My only kind of argument to that would be if
if at this point he had already I guess it
really depends on when he did the committed the sexual assault,
But at this point, if he had already decided to
no longer do things with anybody after he shot the
cat and the friend was there and he got in trouble,
if he would risk assaulting somebody where he would get

(35:04):
in trouble and ruin his images being a good, good kid,
I guess, yeah, No, that's a good point.

Speaker 7 (35:11):
I got in trouble a few times around that age.
People found out about some of the stuff I did,
Like my parents and parents of other kids who would
hang out with me. They would find out about some
of the stuff I did. And that's when I just
started doing stuff by myself. When I was fourteen, there

(35:34):
were some friends staying with us, and there was a
cat of ours that was always getting into the trash
and it was my sister's cat, and I told her
at the time, I was like, that cat gets into
the trash again, I'm gonna kill it.

Speaker 1 (35:51):
And and so.

Speaker 7 (35:59):
There's this kid and some of the other some of
his I think maybe one of my sisters and one
of his sisters.

Speaker 1 (36:07):
We all went up into the woods and I had
the cat with me.

Speaker 7 (36:12):
And took a piece of parachute cord and tied it
to this tree. And the parachute cord was about ten
feet long and had a twenty two revolver with me, and.

Speaker 1 (36:32):
I shot it in the stomach and it.

Speaker 7 (36:35):
Ran around and around the tree and then crashed into
the tree and then started started vomiting. And as soon
as that, like for me, I didn't really react. I
mean I actually kind of laughed a little, I think
because of the way it was running around the tree.
But then I looked over at everybody else, and the

(36:58):
kid who was about my age was with me. He
was he was throwing up like he was like really
and traumatized, I guess you would say. And and he
told he told his dad about it.

Speaker 8 (37:16):
And then.

Speaker 7 (37:20):
And then of course his dad talked to my parents
about it, and that was that was pretty much the
last time anybody went in the woods with me.

Speaker 6 (37:30):
I try to think of that as being that would
be like in the early development of a serial killer,
right on how he might progress.

Speaker 4 (37:37):
The conversations that we've had with the FBI, it seems
like they are very that they they believe that his
first victim was between July two thousand and one and
October two thousand and one, and you know the shoots
assault that was also just before he moved to the north,

(37:58):
uh to the northeast, and and the way that he
described it, I personally believe him now listening to it
over and over again, that he that was a big
deal for him.

Speaker 6 (38:08):
Oh yeah, No, I agree with that.

Speaker 4 (38:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (38:11):
I think he's being sincere about failing to act and
being mad at himself and then being spooked that he
almost committed a murder in his own backyard where he
could have been easily identified. Yeah, yeah, and I agree

(38:32):
with all that.

Speaker 4 (38:32):
Yeah. We spoke with the Console podcast with actually the
full team, all four members their f four FBI profilers
actually covered smanth the Koenig's case and the Courier's case
before they even knew that Israel was a part of it.
So speaking with them, oh yeah, we actually talked about
this and this will come up in an episode coming

(38:53):
up very soon. They they basically convinced me that you know,
once once you start, you know, what he wanted to
do was murder people, and once you start actually performing
that act, you don't go back and just have an
assault and then turn away from it like that's it's
I mean, obviously there are times where people get away,

(39:15):
but him letting her go, they felt like it was
a sign that he had not killed somebody prior to that,
And I think that makes a lot of sense after
talking to them.

Speaker 6 (39:24):
Yeah, and yeah, I agree, I did. That makes a
lot of sense. I think there could be a situation
where it's possible that he could have killed somebody with
it being not an event with a full blown sexual

(39:48):
assault type of thing.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (39:51):
I also wonder too. He said, you know, after the
dishoots assault, he was determined and he kept kind of
going tell kind of backwards, and he's like, yeah, she
really knew what to say, you know, she really knew
how to get out of that, Like you know you're
an interactive guy. I date you, and it sounds to
me pure speculation that he really took that. It sounds

(40:13):
like there had to be some kind of almost not disassociation,
but certainly some definitive compartmentalization, so that he really didn't
like that she'd gotten to him. It's like she could
see through the guys and he couldn't handle his ego,
couldn't handle it, and he knew he had to bifurcate
those two aspects.

Speaker 6 (40:28):
Perhaps that makes some sense to me. The other thing
I would that I took away from when he was
talking about that, specifically that thing about reflecting back on it.
He was pissed he didn't kill her exactly, you know,
I mean after it's like, you know, if I if
I knew then what I knew now, you know, I

(40:49):
would have taken her.

Speaker 5 (40:50):
You know.

Speaker 6 (40:51):
Yeah, I viewed some of it, but oh, I was
going to ask on the clarification of the dates because
I sometimes get fuzzy on it. Would the FBI. Then
when was Susie Lyle taken?

Speaker 4 (41:03):
She was in That was nineteen ninety eight, I believe.

Speaker 6 (41:06):
Yeah, so that would preclude her, right.

Speaker 4 (41:08):
Yeah, Yeah, And you know I'm only speaking for myself
at this point, so I'm not speaking for Dakota or
Heather right now. That's just my opinion on it.

Speaker 6 (41:17):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:21):
Yeah. So they said, yeah, July two thousand and one
to October two thousand and one is when they expect
the first murder to happen, to have happened, and for
it to be not in Washington State. So that's all
that they know is that it's not a Washington State.
All that they believe is is not a Washington State victim.

Speaker 6 (41:35):
So interesting, interesting, Okay, Yeah, and they obviously know more
than any of us, so right.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
Yeah, And I've I've always felt that his description of
the shoots assault is that he was really just speaking
from fantasy and the whole idea of him like going
out into the water to go yeah, inner tube. So
it's really interesting to hear like that part of it.
But then him still tell the story about how she

(42:03):
was able to talk him out of it.

Speaker 5 (42:06):
He yeah, bugged him, he could tell. I he was like, yeah, didn't.
I wasn't gonna let that happen again.

Speaker 6 (42:12):
But I just want to say, I think you're completely
right about the pulling someone off the inner two being fantasy.
I've actually again, you guys probably have spent time on
that river. I rafted that whole river, and so I
somewhat familiar with it, and just the the logistics of
doing what he described seems kind of ridiculous to me.

Speaker 5 (42:35):
Yeah, I'd forgotten about that.

Speaker 6 (42:36):
May I now?

Speaker 5 (42:37):
So I don't mean to keep peppering things with quotes
from you know, Satanism, but may I also pepper. That's
why we're here's a wee bit of pepper.

Speaker 6 (42:46):
It's crazy. I thought I would never hear be with Satanism.

Speaker 5 (42:53):
Little twist. Okay, so Levey spoke of the total environment,
which I need to research more. But let's just presuppose
that he, you know, kind of at least had Satanistic
ideology in his periphery, if not in But I personally
think there was a lot more deliberate ritual in his life,

(43:15):
my own personal belief and associated with his crimes. But
here is another So as to what you said, Jim
about individualistic Satanism is an individual individualistic philosophy, like right,
it's it's your own everything that you do within yourself,
how you conduct yourself. They espouse, they espouse misanthropy, they

(43:37):
he think. Levey said fetishists are fantastic indulged in those things,
indulgence or fetishisms, because they'll help you be a better Satanist,
and says the total environment encompasses many of the central
LaVeyan concepts in one confined yet endless space. And I'm
thinking about certain people we've spoken of in their environment
where he took them, what he did to them, personal preferences, esthetics,

(44:00):
the intellectual compression chamber, fetishism, misanthropy, and possibly artificial human
companions to share the magic with. It is a sphere
of clear sighted yet romantic proto creativity previously unheard of,
a classical magical lore. And I don't want to get
too like weird, but I've been reading stuff and I'm like, again,

(44:25):
we don't know how far he took this. But Anton
Levy was very, very He hated he did not like people,
and he just wanted to create people that were not
people to have around him. And that added to the
magical element he would create. He had mannequins, He would
actually have mannequins made, and he was like, yeah, the
kind of stuff you could buy in the store is nothing.

(44:46):
I've got polyurthing going on here. I've got all sorts
of stuff and these are the people that I create
to have like magical experiences with. And I my brain
went there, kind of went to a crazy place. You
don't have you to comment on this at all, because
I don't really know what I'm saying.

Speaker 9 (45:04):
The thing that came to mind for me is that,
I mean, if you're taking complete control of a victim,
you're essentially turning them into an inandamate object.

Speaker 5 (45:12):
Yeah, precisely, mm hm. This and this sounds like again
hypothesizing you can delete all this stuff, but it sounds
like possibly Postmoredom. We know there was Shenanigan's you know,
not to minimize it or make it, but it sounds
like like there's more on it, like what he would
do and all that stuff, and like I don't know

(45:33):
again how far he's went with it, but it's it's
very Those artificial humans are very central to the potency
of what you do within the realm. I believe of
Leavey and Satanism.

Speaker 4 (45:48):
Can I ask you but also be linked to possessing
them long term by by taking them and as they
are just in your thoughts. I guess there's the memory
of that.

Speaker 5 (46:04):
That's a good question, and it actually goes to things
that I was gonna we're going to talk about after
like other things I haven't thought. I haven't found that yet, Joshua,
in my reading about long term implications of having those
other than it was almost like a comfort and a
way for him for Levey to be fully like flourishing

(46:24):
and not having to worry about actual people and there
and their emotions. That just sounded like kind of maybe
possibly similar to certain paradigms that Keys might have created. However,
I think what you might have just been mentioning is
sort of a long term possession. Are you talking about
possibly like theoretically him taking something with him from his victims,

(46:46):
either physically and literally or metaphysically.

Speaker 7 (46:50):
Is that what you were Yeah.

Speaker 6 (46:54):
All kind of on the table. The uh again, just
it's just reacting to what you said. One. Is that
again we know that he committed acts in acrophilia, he
spent I was amazed, you know, when I heard the

(47:14):
interviews of him going through the details of Samantha Konic
how much time he spent with her post mortem. So
that could not have been the first time that he
spent significant time post mortem with a victim, I by believe,
and I think there's a good circumstantial information that he

(47:34):
spent a lot of time with post mortem with more
victims than just Samanthakonic. I think we can probably assume that.
But the one other thing too, talking about possessing something
after death, he did in the suicide note right, he

(47:55):
mentioned saying that the soul dies with the the body
or the physical being. Which that's that stood out to
me a little bit. I was sort of surprised because
I I would have thought that he had the mindset
of collecting souls.

Speaker 5 (48:14):
But I do share that I do believe in what
you're saying there, just with what.

Speaker 6 (48:19):
He wrote, which again isn't a surprise with him. But
and then the last thing, and this ties into another thing,
is whether or not he did take trophies. But he
uh did seem to have a thing for hair, obviously,
and which goes into the and I'm sure if you

(48:42):
guys have brainstormed the meaning of Cara call enough what
whether or not it has significance obviously, and uh one
I one of many ideas that popped in my head
is that maybe the main trophy he took were curlsive

(49:02):
hair or locks of hair. And again that's one of
many thoughts. But I just haven't heard anyone specifically mentioned that.
But I know you guys Joshua are hoping to uh yeah,
you know, in a great world to be to come
up with the cash room port Angelis, which you know

(49:23):
might be the the gold mine of of of things,
may have some some trophies. And I wouldn't be surprised
if there were a bunch of locks.

Speaker 4 (49:36):
I think I agree that definitely. And and Samantha un
Kooningg's hair was was cut whenever they found her. Yeah,
did you so whenever you first contacted us, that was
before we released the painting that Heather had done. Correct,
what was your Did you have any initial reactions when
you saw it? Anything that stood out to you?

Speaker 6 (49:56):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (49:56):
Wow?

Speaker 6 (49:57):
Got a bunch of things. One was that it had
never been reported that I had come across as a Karacol.
That was it was always usually Corzol. And so that
opened up just more thoughts, I guess, And and people

(50:20):
you guys have talked about him. I can't really shed
any light on on that. There's the location thing, There's
the Mayan aspect thing of human sacrifices being related to
the geography. There's the meaning of lack of hair or

(50:40):
curls of hair, the meaning the snail meaning, which I
probably think would be the least likely of having any significance.
I I had no idea that he drained his own
blood into containers. That was was pretty uh surprising and
graphically pretty disturbing. Again, you know, I think of doing that,

(51:10):
right and actually acting that out, and I just did.
Again I'm limited by my myself, right, I can't. I
can't picture uh doing that. It's just bizarre to me. Uh.
It does indicate that there could be some significance again

(51:30):
about blood letting and what he may or may not
have done with blood yet, you know, maybe drank blood.
I don't know.

Speaker 5 (51:38):
Well, when you think about it magically, you know, blood
obviously has so many magical connotations, right, life, force, everything.
And also to what you were talking about with hair,
I'm fascinated by that, and I have two two kind
of beliefs about the word. But as pertains to hair,

(52:00):
this is an interesting quote that I found in the
realm of accult Practice's Locks of hair considered a potent
magical tool often used in spells and rituals due to
the belief that hair is a direct physical connection to
a person's life force, allowing for manipulation of their energy
through quote. Contagious magic and contagious magic is the core
concept that a person's hair retains a connection to the whole,

(52:24):
meaning possessing someone's hair gives you a degree of power
over them. And I fully agree with you about that,
I personally again, however we want to go. I believe
fully that hair was taken and it's sacred. Hair is
a possessive thing, you know.

Speaker 6 (52:42):
If there's any significance to the number eleven, which I don't,
you know, I don't know that. I believe that there is.
But maybe that has to do with the victims that
he did collect a trophy from because the murder was
conducted in some way, that's some satisfaction for him who

(53:04):
knows that.

Speaker 5 (53:07):
D code And Joshua, do you mind if I just
throw one of my tiny little side theories about the
number of or why he did the drawing? Do you
mind if I do that?

Speaker 6 (53:17):
Go ahead, Joshua, Sorry.

Speaker 4 (53:20):
I keep me and myself because I have a cat
run around here.

Speaker 5 (53:22):
Vide Yeah, No, absolutely, and again huge bracket speculative, that
he believed that there was an energetic transference between his
victims and him, and that he had, you know, back
to the Bundy quote, like he had agency over them.
And I personally believe that that drawing of the eleven

(53:43):
plus the Baphomet was him saying, I have to let
you go because I have told the FBI that there
were eleven of you. I think that he felt like
he might have harnessed the energy. Huge speculator like provide
that he'd harness the energy, and by admitting to those
that he kind of had to let them go, and

(54:04):
then he was kind of paying a little homage to
them in that drying. I do think there was an
energetic He believed there was an energetic transference and he
kind of had them and they were he had them.
He knew where he put them, no one else did,
and he was pissed off that they found that he
told about the couriers and he had to let them go,
and he didn't probably want to do that because he

(54:24):
probably figured they'd found it. Anyway, that's my own You
don't have to comment on that. That's just I believe
there was a real possessive quality to it to them.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
Is that like an act of remorse then or just
to what would.

Speaker 5 (54:37):
Be the total speculation, But I think if so, if
you have to, if you reveal something to someone, even
if you don't get too specific. I think I'm not
saying shame was involved, but I believe that there was
a degree of Yeah, remorse, did you say remorse? I
think that could be so like, I unfortunately have to
let you go from the collective of people that I've.

Speaker 6 (54:58):
Taken interesting so fascinating thought.

Speaker 5 (55:02):
And by by by drawing them on there, it was
kind of his little homage to them, being like, I
have to bid you goodbye. I still have everyone else,
but I'm going to let you guys go.

Speaker 4 (55:15):
Do you have any comment at all on the skulls
or how that's.

Speaker 6 (55:18):
Not not any really beyond anything that anybody's else come
up with. Okay, and no, no greater thought the one again,
this is just a brainstorming thing, you know. I forget
who brought up it was one of you guys. Wasn't
it about some of the skulls might have had a
mark on the cheek.

Speaker 4 (55:39):
Yeah, it's like a dot below one of the eyes
on several of them. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (55:43):
Yeah, the and again that this is this isn't thought through,
This is just a reaction, just a thought of okay,
what could that be? Maybe maybe those could be the couples. Oh. Interesting,
It was one one thing that came to me. But
I and it's not based on anything other than why

(56:04):
not you know, mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (56:07):
That's interesting.

Speaker 6 (56:08):
Yeah, that was the only explanation or just one one
explanation that puffed in mind that I hadn't heard anybody
mentioned before.

Speaker 5 (56:17):
But I know that I know that we've talked about
Bundy before, and I mean I only mentioned him because
I do find certain certain aspects similar. And I know
Dakota and Joshua I read that quote to you that
I really do kind of think it might be relevant,
just in my own belief about how when Bundy said,

(56:42):
you know when after a while, it doesn't because it
ceases to be so much sexual or violent in the
sense that what overrides that impetus is the desire to
return to the places from which you took them. I've
never quite forgotten that. And that's in the same interview
shortly before his execution, where he basically said, you know,

(57:04):
when you take people, you become one with them, and
in the skull drawings he does say we are one.
And I'm not saying it's Bundy related, but I find it.
I personally find it. And again i'm it's confirmation bias, etc.
But I do think there's something there. I think, but

(57:25):
we're going I'm sorry, I don't mean to go off
on a side, no, but I'm fascinated by the hair.
I'm fascinated by the returning, reported returning of people's items
to where he took them from. Ostensibly, let's just hypothetically say, yes,
that's what he did, and he did those things. I'm
fascinated by the fact that these were people who disappeared

(57:46):
and who he purportedly took and you were going into
a place where you were returning a thing to a
place from whence you took them. There's a degree of
risk there. Why do that? And I mean, I am
the supernatural hypothesis gal. I think there was a ritualistic
compulsion to return there. I'm digressing, But I do I

(58:08):
believe that, Oh sure, yeah.

Speaker 9 (58:11):
At first glance, I just want to believe that he
thought he was smarter than law enforcement. It was gonna
throw an investigation off course by doing something like that,
but it could be more ritualistic than I think.

Speaker 4 (58:26):
Yeah, there's practical reasons too, just going there to double
check to see if you drop something, left something behind, Like,
there's a lot there's so many different aspects of that
if he actually did, in fact go back and leave
stuff to derail or to visit the site again, Like,
there's a lot of different avenues that you can pursue
with that that I think are really once another victim

(58:49):
is actually discovered, I think it will reveal a lot
about what his process was and if he actually did
go back and do that stuff.

Speaker 9 (58:56):
Right, That's a really good point, Josh, because I was
just going to say, really, we only have three victims
to look at, and I don't think that we have
an example in the Courier case or the Coning case
of him returning items to the scene of the abduction.
So we're basing you know, I mean, if we're going
to base uh theories on, you know, all we have

(59:16):
to base them on are those three abductions victims, and
we don't have that example within those events. So it's
hard to say one way or the.

Speaker 6 (59:27):
Other that's yeah, a really good point.

Speaker 2 (59:30):
M hm.

Speaker 9 (59:31):
Not not to not to be a part party pooper.

Speaker 5 (59:34):
No, I love it all. I mean yeah, I think
and you know what, there could be two things. It
could be I flaunting what was it they call like, uh,
what did dud Julius sing in the console or something?
But deceptive deceitful. There's a thing where you basically flaunt
what you've done. So you know, there's a there's a
there's a titillation to having something that you know that

(59:57):
someone dy that you're with does not know. Yeah, and
there's perhaps that happened perhaps to do rail you know,
and my own you know, I also think, you know,
a ritualistic, magical component. But I am the I am
the new ag gal Off, you know, in my own
little world here, Heather, was that duping delight?

Speaker 4 (01:00:24):
Is that what you're referring to or is it a
different correct?

Speaker 5 (01:00:26):
Okay, okay, that's correct.

Speaker 8 (01:00:28):
It was.

Speaker 5 (01:00:28):
There was some deeds there, Yes, duping delight like Gacy
did it like so many people do it, like they
just they take great pleasure in knowing something that's right
there in their immediacy. I think there could have been
a bit of duping delight perhaps if that's what happened
there with returning items.

Speaker 9 (01:00:47):
Well, we know that, Keys, that's I mean, his exact
words were, That's where I get my kicks is knowing
that I'm lining all these people and they don't know
who I am, but I do. They don't know what
but I do. Yes, you know, so we know for
a fact that he, you know, got great pleasure out

(01:01:08):
of that.

Speaker 5 (01:01:10):
What are you thinking, Joshua, I can hear you thinking.

Speaker 4 (01:01:13):
Oh, yeah, I'm just I'm just I'm enjoying the conversation
with you guys. You guys have some really good points
of view, and it's just interesting. You know, there's always
always something new that that comes with these conversations. You
never really know how it's going to go, so just
to appreciate it.

Speaker 6 (01:01:29):
Yeah, I'll pride myself on knowing about as much as
I can from sitting at home and looking at things online. Right,
But but I recognize that that means I don't know
hardly any any reality about this, just what's been put
out there. But since you guys have been meeting with
the FBI, that's got to be great. I mean to

(01:01:53):
get some actual, direct, real feedback on some of the information.
It's it's amazing that you guys have been able to
make in roads there.

Speaker 9 (01:02:02):
Yeah, No, it's that's incredible. Yeah, And it's just it's
nice to be able to put put away rumors and
confirm facts. And you know, that's the main thing is
is just making sure that we're following the facts and
not not the you know, all the all the internet
stuff that's out there.

Speaker 5 (01:02:20):
Yeah, thank you again for you're incredibly considering that you've
had like limited like what you have absorbed from what
you've heard in everything, Jim, the fact that you left
such a incredibly articulate and measured reply. I read it
and I was like, this guy, no matter what. Yeah,

(01:02:42):
like I thank you for taking the time and it's
really lovely you thank you for sending me down the
satanistic path. I mean, I've you know, just.

Speaker 6 (01:02:54):
Been like you may be cursing me in a month
or two.

Speaker 5 (01:03:00):
What's your address again.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
To how there's point though? That's I mean, that's exactly
what we're looking for, is you know, trying to reach
out or trying to put this information out there and
just see what comes back to us, to see if
it can help in any way. So even if you
don't have the a full background on Satanism, just this
definitely help us get get us going in the right direction.

Speaker 6 (01:03:23):
So there's got to be some academic person out there,
and it doesn't have to be someone in academia, but
but there's got to be somebody that has some expertise
in this that could give a viewpoint. Is it's how
I would describe or suggest, right I. I don't. I

(01:03:45):
don't know that even that they will have you know,
will know what's going on with keys and in regards
to it, but I think they could have a viewpoint
on it.

Speaker 9 (01:03:58):
Right Well, that's half to the battle, is you know,
anyone who may know and have information about this hasn't
had the opportunity or time to sit with the information. Yes,
especially the no information which was just released. So now
that we have a little bit of a clearer picture
of the information, you know, like maybe maybe something will pop.

Speaker 6 (01:04:21):
Well and along the lines of what you're saying. For
somebody to really give a semi educated response, they're going
to have to see all the FBI interviews. They're gonna
have to you know, there's a big time investment of
a learning curse. Someone's got to hop through and finding
someone that would be willing to do that. That's going

(01:04:42):
to be kind of tough too, someone that has the expertise.

Speaker 4 (01:04:46):
But that's why this conversation is valuable. So thank you.

Speaker 6 (01:04:50):
I'll be high for a week after this.

Speaker 4 (01:04:56):
Thanks so much, Tim, I appreciate it.

Speaker 8 (01:04:58):
Tim.

Speaker 4 (01:04:59):
Do you mind if we reach out? Do you have
any other questions or anything at some point or no?

Speaker 6 (01:05:03):
Please? Okay, that'd be awesome, cool, wonderful.

Speaker 4 (01:05:08):
All right, right.

Speaker 6 (01:05:10):
And everyone, that's fantastic.

Speaker 4 (01:05:12):
Cool. We'll catch you later, you too, have a wonderful night.

Speaker 12 (01:05:16):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Somewhere in the
Pines featuring Heather Horton, Whedon and Jim Freeman.

Speaker 9 (01:05:37):
Remember to subscribe and drop a review. If you want
to support the show, please join us on Patreon at
patreon dot com forward slash Somewhere in the Pines. As always,
we'd like to give a very special thank you to
our Patreon producers Heather Horton, Whedon, Nicole Guzman, Colleen Sullivan,
Linley Tushoff, A Tarman, Caitlin James, Stephanie Maximo, Brian Hannah,

(01:06:00):
Kathy Nation, Ali Pink, Trista Dale Accident and Corey Deeley.

Speaker 5 (01:06:35):
The total environment. This is very important in Levan in philosophy.
I need to find out what that means. The total
environment encompasses many of the central Levan concepts in one
confined yet endless space, personal preferences, esthetics, the intellectual decompression chamber.

(01:06:55):
That's another recurring phrase. I need to research exactly what
that means. Fetish is misanthropy, and possibly artificial human companions
to share the magic with. It's a sphere of clear
sighted yet romantic proto creativity previously unheard of in classical
magical lore. So they're talking about how Levey had like

(01:07:17):
he's kind of a bit of an innovator, and that
he described this paradigm. I need to research more about that,
and I will, because this total environment is a recurring
theme I've listened to, and also your intellectual need compression chamber.
And he absolutely encouraged fetishism. He encouraged you to have
pleasure because you were the only one really responsible for

(01:07:39):
yourself and you. Also also he talks about he was
so anti heard mentality, so he's like, keep yourself separate
from people, be separate geographically, be separate emotionally, but also
in order to be a full, a fully realized person,
there is an emotional opponent to everything that you do.

(01:08:04):
It's yeah, I don't know if I'm explaining it right,
but misanthropy is a big deal, like not liking the
establishment or other people. So separate yourself from those ah.
Artificial human companions desire to be in charge and control
the environment and its denizens act as an intellectual decompression chamber. Quote.

(01:08:26):
I have great respect for those who pioneer their own
artificial human companion. Crude is that they may initially be,
they will have They will have come a small step
closer towards playing God and creating man or woman according
to their desired image, with a creative outlet as cloaked

(01:08:48):
in age old taboos such as this, that an artificial
companion looks right is of primary importance.

Speaker 4 (01:08:58):
That's fucking crazy.

Speaker 9 (01:09:00):
Yes,