S01E11 - Caracol - The Occult

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Hi Everyone,
In today's episode, as we near the end of the Caracol miniseries - we are joined by Heather Horton Whedon as she retells the theory she told us one cold rainy night while camping near a cemetery on the shoreline of Blake Falls Reservoir. A glimpse into how pondering over Israel's last days and final moments reminded her of specifc Tarot cards that hold special meanings. Speculative but engaging - as well as thought provoking with a fresh perspective from someone that spent the most time with the image. Thanks for listening - and if you are enjoying Somewhere in the Pines, please be sure to tell a friend.

Featured Guests:
Heather Horton Whedon

Resources:
The FBI files
The Church of Satan by Anton LaVey
The Rider Tarot Deck

And as always, a very special Thank you to our Patreon producers:

Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Colleen Sullivan
Attar Mann
Stephanie Maksimow
Katelyn James
Kathy Nation
Brian Hanna
Trista
Ally
Pink
Dale Akstin
and
Corey Deatly

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a studio both and collaboration. Somewhere in the
Pines is a serial podcast containing adult content, including descriptions
of violence, sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Thank you for joining us for another installment in the
Chara Call series.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm Dakota and I'm Joshua. Welcome to Somewhere in the Pines,
Episode eleven, The Occult. This past October, after leaving Hawk Mountain, Pennsylvania,

(01:18):
we made our way back to Blake Falls Reservoir in
New York. This time we were there in search of
a shovel and any new landmark that may present itself.
After driving all morning and searching all afternoon, darkness was
quickly approaching. We decided that spending the night there would
be the best bed, so we could check the other

(01:38):
side of the reservoir in the morning. On our way
to Constable, we opted out of sleeping at the cash site.
This time. There was a truck that kept passing by,
making us a little uneasy, and it felt a little
too exposed to the elements. The temperature was dropping into
the thirties and the rain looked like it would last
all night, so we looked for another spot. Found the cemetery,

(02:09):
an old cemetery on a dead end road on the
opposite side of the reservoir. Of course, camp Near's cemetery
had to be safer tucked beneath the Ponderosa pines. We
set up our tents and gathered firewood. We sipped hacoco
with cinnamon whiskey to keep warm, and slurped romin from
cups to try and build up some reserves for the

(02:30):
cold night ahead. We were all together, Dakota Drew, Heather
and myself, small waves lapping against the shore line of
the reservoir, and fire crackling as wet woods steamed in
the fire ring. We had been waiting to talk about

(02:52):
the painting, trying to find the right time where we
had enough time to discuss ideas without an interruption. This
is when Heather decided to tell us what she thinks
to sell drawings mean. We asked her to condense her
notes so we can release the idea in its entirety.
This is her idea.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
A couple of weeks after completing the characle painting, while
I was painting it, I wasn't thinking about what it
meant because I thought it has to mean something, but
I don't know what that is yet, And my purpose
right now is to paint this as authentically as I
can given the reference that I have. So I painted

(03:43):
this painting without thinking about what it meant and what
he meant. I just painted it. And it wasn't until
I went to Ontario to visit my mom two weeks
after completing the painting that I had some time and
I thought, what the actual hell is going on here?

(04:03):
What did these things mean? And I remember I begin
this rabbit hole. The entrance to the rabbit hole into
this warren of ideas came from Bappha Met in regards
to the skull drawings, and I were like, all right, Bapha
Met pretty much anyone, even without a knowledge of these things,
is like, that's probably satanically connected. So I thought, let's

(04:26):
start there. So I started researching Bapha Met, and I
learned that there was this fellow named Eliphus I know
by pronouncing it poorly Levy, a franchisotericist who became a
ceremonial magician who began speaking of the occult and wrote
numerous books about it, as well as the quote goal

(04:48):
of perfect social order. So Baphamet is the sabbatical goat
with which has quote. Its arms have the words solve
a which means dissolve or separate, and coagula, which means
coagulate or join together. And the figure of bah Met

(05:11):
is usually depicted as androgynists. So my brain started thinking
about that and thinking, nothing that keys seem to do
seemed to be arbitrary. Everything seemed to have a meaning,
And so why bapha Met in this drawing with all
the skulls? And I also read that Levy, this fellow
who drew it, said that the two hands formed the

(05:32):
sign of occultism in Baphomet, and that this sign expressed
the perfect harmony of mercy with justice, which is interesting.
So one of Baphamet's arms go up and one goes down,
and we have the Latin words essentially dissolve and coagulate
on two different arms, and my brain went to a
bit of a graphic place with regards to some of

(05:55):
his victims. Again, I am I'm hypothesizing here, but I've
found it interesting that baha Met really means balance and
order and not satan per se, not the nefariousness that
one would immediately think it might mean. I thought about
the vessels in the painting, and I thought about these

(06:18):
three vessels that are square and one that's circular. Keep
in mind, mind, I've painted this thing to the best
of my ability, and I hadn't thought about what it
really meant and what the hell he was doing there.
And from bah Met I found Levy, and from Levy
I found a Weight Waite and ae Weight, Arthur Edward Waite.

(06:44):
He created the rider Weight tarot deck, which was illustrated
by Pamela Coleman Smith. They both were members of the
Golden Dawn and so she illstrated the probably the most

(07:05):
iconic tarot deck. So a kind of a lightning bolt
thing happened. After the Baphomet. I went and I found
this dude, Levy. I'm like, who are you? Then I
found out about Weight and how he illustrated this deck,
and then my years of being, you know, in my
witchy ways. In high school with my best friend, we

(07:25):
practiced wicca after we found a book called The Power
of the Witch by laur Cabot. Cabot and we were like,
this is cool, and we were into that. So I
have a very very cursory knowledge of these sorts of
witchy things, but the tarot is something that I mean,
we've all generally heard of it. And this deck, the
rider Weight deck, is the iconic deck in my experience

(07:49):
of the taro. And all of a sudden I remembered
that the four of Cups in the rider weight tarot,
or any taro really that the rider weights the one
that came to mind.

Speaker 5 (08:02):
The four of.

Speaker 4 (08:03):
Cups has three cups lined up next to one another,
and a fourth one is coming from a nebulous cloud
from the side. There's a figure on this card the
fourth cups, and he has his arms crossed and he's
not looking at the cups that are beside him, and

(08:26):
he certainly isn't looking at the one that's coming from
the cloud. And all of a sudden, I thought, I
quickly googled, I need to see the picture of this card,
and sure enough, the card has three goblets with square tops,
but then kind of circular bottoms. I believe it was

(08:47):
three of them, and then the fourth one's coming from
this kind of cloud. And I don't know what keys
had access to, but I remember the fourth vessel as
a circle, and I'm thinking, I wonder if that was
because it came from a nebulous place. Did he have
time to get fourth one that was square or ran
out of time? I don't know. But then I start.

(09:08):
I went and I thought, you've got to be kidding me,
And I went and looked up the meaning of the
four of cups in the tarot. Now keep in mind,
in the tarot you've got four elements. You have four
suits if you will, pentacles, swords, wands, and cups. And

(09:29):
swords means air, pentacles means earth, wands is fire, and
cups is emotions and water and water seems to play
a part in what I've heard about keys. But moving
on the four of cups. Quote here we go. Quote here.

Speaker 2 (09:47):
The four of.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
Cups shows a young man sitting under a tree with
his arms crossed, deep in contemplation and meditation. He is
so engrossed in his thoughts that he does not seem
to notice the outstretched arm offering a cup or other
three cups stand at his feet. But again, he doesn't
seem to notice or care about these opportunities either.

Speaker 3 (10:08):
The four of.

Speaker 4 (10:09):
Cups appears when you are bored or dissatisfied with your
everyday life. You may feel disengaged. Apathetic or unmotivated. Maybe
life has become dull, and I'm thinking, well, he was incarcerated.
It also means the four of cups also means contemplation, apathy, reevaluation,

(10:29):
not caring about anyone else, giving away little, holding your
emotions in, ignoring gifts and blessings, pass of acceptance, depression,
being tired withdrawn, isolated from society, distance, emptiness, defensiveness, also

(10:52):
feeling a discontent and indifference and struggling to see a
way forward. And I thought that sounds possibly right, given
the circumstances that he was in. Then the real crazy
moment came when I remembered in True Crime Bullshit, when

(11:15):
he mentioned how Israel took his life and that he
had fashioned a noose around his neck, and that he
had fashioned one around his ankle. It's written once. I
found it once in type in Psychology today weirdly about
it being tied at his ankle being tied, and I

(11:37):
remember hearing that so long ago and thinking, huh, ankle
seems kind of weird. I don't know. I can't picture it.
I can't picture the cell, but I don't know that
just and I tucked it away in my brain But
then after I thought about the four of cups, I thought,
holy the heck, and I quickly googled to verify that.

(12:00):
In the tarot deck you've got major arcana and minor arcana,
and your major arcane are kind of your archetypes. So
your major cards are the ones that mean major life
changes and forces and such, and the minor arcana are
kind of more minor, if you will. And I thought,
holy heck, what about the hanged man, because hearing that

(12:22):
he fashioned a noose around his one ankle, not both.
And I went back today to verify, and it was one.
I thought, what the heck about the hanged man? In
the major arcana, the hangedman is the twelfth card. This
is what I found. What ae Wait, who designed a deck,

(12:44):
said on this fellow, so imagine, if you will, you
have a figure man hanging from one ankle upside down
on a cross. And he says the face expresses deep entransmit,
not suffering. That the figure as a whole suggests life

(13:05):
in suspension. It has been called falsely a card of martyrdom.
The hangman signifies surrender, letting go and gaining a new perspective.
There's that word through sacrifice. It embodies a period of
suspension and self reflection, mirroring the emotional withdrawal and introspection

(13:28):
of the fourth cups. So you've got two cards which
both have introspection, an inward energy dissatisfaction, also kind of
a letting go. So you've got these two overlapping meanings.
And I thought, why tie your foot like that? It

(13:49):
doesn't sound like it served a function. I don't know,
but it sounds like it was symbolic, and I really
felt like it could be the hanged man. It also
means the importance of pa patients and gaining new perspectives,
the positive aspects of letting go, sacrificing and taking time

(14:11):
to reflect. It also means wisdom, circumspection, discernment, trials, divination,
and prophecy. And also I found out that this figure
hanging upside down is often depicted as Odin. Odin hung
upside down for nine days and nights. On the Tree

(14:32):
of Life, you drassle, I'm not pronouncing it right, and
you drassle is the Tree of Life and Knowledge. In
on the Tree of Life and Knowledge, it came from
a well spring of water and the runic alphabet. The
ruines came from his nine days of hanging upside down
and what happened to him. So there's a real odin

(14:54):
quality to the hanged man upside down. And also it
means yeah, wisdom, circumspection, discernment, trials, dimnation, prophecy. It also
means dissatisfaction with your current situation. It also means or
the four of cups means a separation from society. You

(15:15):
are literally separate from society. And I thought about these
two cards, and I thought, even if there's no further
meaning other than that which the cards generally mean, even
if there's not some overarch in philosophy, I really feel
that those that could be connected perhaps, And the four

(15:40):
of cups is cool because they're lined up like it
was they were in to sell those vessels in a
cell looked like those vessels. And what those vessels, by
the way, represent, are temptations of life. They represent, you know,
things you could take that would deviate you from your
path right of where you might go, your self reflection,

(16:03):
what you're doing. They represent kind of physical temptations, if
you will. And between that and hanging upside down and
the freaking his ankle, the news tier at Ankle, I thought,
why the hell would someone do that. You've already you're exsanguinating,
Why would you do that? And I really think it

(16:23):
was symbolic, and I really think that it's meant to
represent the hangedman from the major arcana of the terra.
I really do. They are both cards of introspection, you know,
so they kind of magnify each other, but the Hangman
does not. And I think it's interesting. He specifically said
it does not meant to be a martyrdom card. It's
not that. It's kind of a relinquishing yourself to that

(16:49):
which is before you. So you've got the four of Cups,
which means I am so sick of this situation I'm
in basically like, I'm depressed, I'm upset, I'm apathetic. What
am I doing? Or why am I like? And then
you've got the Hangman, which is there's an interesting There's
two aspects. There's there's relinquishing yourself to new perspectives, new

(17:13):
horizons and possible enlightenment, and yeah, there's the whole Odin
thing is interesting. I did not know that at first
about the fact that he's actually hanging upside down. Originally
from the drassal tree, which is the tree of life
and wisdom. So by letting yourself go into that through

(17:35):
self sacrifice and not martyrdom, which are different, right, it's
allowing yourself to perhaps get wisdom and learning and knowledge
from that. It is the tree of life which weight
was inspired by, which created the Hangman. But and I'm
not saying that Keys was ruled by Taro, but I

(17:56):
think that the deeper meanings or the meanings of those cards,
I do believe that means something. The tarot has been
around for centuries, like centuries, and it's mystical occult per
mutations have happened more recently. They were used as like
a deck of actual playing cards and still are in

(18:18):
France to this day, but as a divination tool that
was only rather recently. I do believe the eighteen hundreds,
I do believe that's when it first came to be
used as a tool of divination. And there's seventy six
or seventy eight cards of which are divided into the

(18:39):
major minor arcane. They've gone through different evolutions over the years,
different archetypes have been used. But the four suits, the
four suits are and they go all the way from
your ace, which is your PIP card. So they go
all the way from the ace to the king, and
every has meaning right and cups means emotions. Wands is

(19:05):
fire right or work an ambition, and then you've got pentacles,
which is earth or money related things, also wisdom. And
then you've got sword, which is air, which is generally
when you see that air cards or swords cards come
up in readings, they mean strife and dissension and things

(19:28):
like that. So I think it's interesting that he chose
the four of cups, if that's what that means, because
cups are emotions and he I think there was a
huge water component to this person, water and fire. But
I think that it's my guess is that if the
only blow is mis billit is either about I can't
do this because I have to not completely demolish the

(19:52):
lives of my loved ones. But I actually truthfully think
eighty percent of me thinks that it's the other reason,
which is I can't tell you these things because it
would nullify I would not have of them within my
control anymore if I gave you that. That's why I
think he was so pissed off about the couriers because

(20:12):
they were no longer his. They become you, you become one,
and he had to let them go. And so I
think the skull drawings and the eleven and the twelfth
with a baffro met whether or not he saw himself
as Bapha met the eleven, I think that was a
way of him saying goodbye to them, the eleven because
there's possibly I think, probably more, but he had to

(20:34):
let them go. That's what I think by talking about them,
he let them go by saying it, by describing it.
I personally believe that by describing it in terms of
location anything that he didn't have control anymore. Right, it's
all about control. If you talk about a thing and
you tell where a thing is, even if they don't

(20:56):
find it, you've kind of broken the seal. The whole
Satanic principle of that which is not seen has the
most allure. It could possibly explain the fact that he
would hide cashes with in place that they could technically
be found but probably weren't, like the titillation of the
proximity of cases, and where he threw the gun where

(21:17):
it could still be retrieved. Obviously, the like if need be,
the cash is obviously, but the gun maybe, but he
knew it was there. It's very interesting to me the fact, Yeah,
I really think, I don't know, Yeah, I don't know.
I just I really think that that was very interesting
to him to have a thing and not lord it

(21:40):
over someone. But I think drawing those those skulls that
was a way of saying goodbye, because he even telling
the FBI that they were there, even if they didn't
find them, And that's why he maybe was so pissed
off about the couriers. It's not that well because they
were going to nail him on other crimes anyway, But
he seemed just so a mad about the couriers, And

(22:04):
I think it's because he knew that their energy or
whatever was transferred there was gone, not because they found them,
but because he told them. Just the fact that the
three vessels are lined up perfectly in a row like
they were in the cell, with a square bottom, maybe
that's all he had access to. But the fact that

(22:26):
he somehow found a fourth vessel which was round bottom.
I thought, why is that different? What's different about that
one from the other ones? And then when I pulled
the card and I looked at it, and I saw
that the fourth vessel was coming from a cloud, which
is amorphous kind of by nature. I thought, heck, maybe
that's what that means. Maybe that's that one. So you've

(22:50):
got three that are on the ground beside him, and
he has the fourth one closest or wherever he was.
But the fourth one is a circle at the base.
And maybe it's because as that's representing the one that's
from the cloud. Maybe maybe I could talk about hair
stuff too, and Cara Cali and Fibonacci and sacred geometry.

(23:13):
But I don't know how much time you guys.

Speaker 5 (23:17):
I mean, if you've got it in your head and
you're ready for it, I'd say let's just record it
and we can do the follow up whenever Dakota's back
of Dakota. If you do, you have to leave or
you have more time for to finish.

Speaker 4 (23:28):
This will be this part will be quick. Thank you
for hearing the other bits. This part, the Characali bit,
is not going to be as long, and it basically
just means, you know, amongst the many meanings of Kara call,
there is the curl of hair, and there is the
fact that it was written so largely on the Wall.
I started looking at sacred geometry and Fibonacci and just chaos.

(23:52):
It's chaos theory, which is far from chaotic, although it
seems like it. And I personally believe personally that Kara
call because he said I would follow the hurricanes, and
I think the dude was obsessed with weather and he
followed them. And I personally believe that kara cal is
in reference to a spiral or volute shape, which is

(24:13):
one of the definitions of kara cal, and that sacred
geometry is hurricanes. If you look up like a diagram
of that, that's what that is. And I think that
that's how he viewed himself. I think personally that he
viewed himself as control of chaos and he went where

(24:35):
he could cause the most destruction, but within the parameters
that he determined. So that's aside from the cards. But
the characle word, I do think it means also hair,
I do, but I really think it means the spiral
of sacred geometry and Fibonacci, which he viewed himself as.
That's what I think that that's how he saw himself.

(24:58):
I think it's interesting that he didn't just spiral, but
that's what I personally think. I mean, the hangman actually
doesn't mean martyrdom. So it doesn't mean I'm doing this
for the greater good. It actually is I'm doing this
for myself, which is completely in alignment if we want

(25:18):
to go to the satanistic philosophy. So it's not about
look at what I'm doing. I'm going to be leaving
this mortal plane, but look what I did for you.
It's this is me, this is what I'm doing again.
I painted this whole painting knowing I know this means something,
but my my objective, my job right now is to

(25:40):
paint this as authentically as I can, and all I
didn't think I'll figure it out later. I just was like,
this is what I have to do right now. And
it wasn't until weeks later, until I had died for
my brain to rest. I wish I could be like
I really felt it right from the beginning. I'm like nope.
I was just like, I hope I can do this, okay,
And then weeks later I'm like my brain could rest
from it. I'm like, what the heck mm hmm, But

(26:04):
thank you for thank you for being so open because
we're venturing into the realm fully like you know, outer
solar system, like of speculative nests here. But I really
feel and it's not like if someone gave another interpretation,
I'd be like, no, it's mine. I know it's not
that at all. But I personally believe I do. I

(26:27):
do it just it's the ankle. The vessels are one thing,
the ankles and another thing. I do really think that's
the thing. And he tied his neck too, you know,
And I just really, I really do believe it. I
think it was symbolic. I think he distilled his own
philosophy in the end. I think he adhered to some
things but also distilled it. I think he was If

(26:49):
people think he wasn't that smart, I think he was
smart enough to do that.

Speaker 2 (27:08):
Thanks for listening to this episode of Somewhere in the Pines.
If you want to support the show, please join us
on Patreon at patreon dot com forward slash Somewhere in
the Pines. As always, we'd like to give a very
special thank you to our Patreon producers, Heather Horton, Whedon,
Nicole Guzman, Colleen Sullivan, Linley toushoff, A Tarman, Caitlin James,
Stephanie Maximo, Brian Hannah, Kathy Nation, Ali Pink, Trista Dale Axton,

(27:36):
and Corey Deatley.

Speaker 4 (28:00):
M H.

Speaker 5 (28:07):
In my podcast voice, I'm excited for this transition.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
There is no transition.

Speaker 5 (28:16):
It just like always sound like an idiot.