December 12, 2024 • 39 mins
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Somewhere in the Pines is sponsored by Better Help and Hello Fresh
Today we are joined by PHD Bioarchaeologist and specialist in Maya civilization remains to talk about the history of the area and what potential crossover there is with Israel's M.O. and cell drawings. Nearing the end of the Caracol miniseries, we hope you enjoy another perspective before we start to break it all down and answer the questions you have been asking.
Enjoy!
Resources:
The FBI files
And as always, a very special Thank you to our Patreon producers:
Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Colleen Sullivan
Attar Mann
Stephanie Maksimow
Katelyn James
Kathy Nation
Brian Hanna
Trista
Ally
Pink
Dale Akstin
and
Corey Deatly
This is a Studio BOTH/AND collaboration: www.somewhereinthepines.com / bothand.fyi For an ad-free experience: cz/studiobothand
For early ad-free episodes and more: www.Patreon.com/somewhereinthepines
Somewhere in the Pines is sponsored by Better Help and Hello Fresh
Today we are joined by PHD Bioarchaeologist and specialist in Maya civilization remains to talk about the history of the area and what potential crossover there is with Israel's M.O. and cell drawings. Nearing the end of the Caracol miniseries, we hope you enjoy another perspective before we start to break it all down and answer the questions you have been asking.
Enjoy!
Resources:
The FBI files
And as always, a very special Thank you to our Patreon producers:
Heather Horton Whedon
Nicole Guzman
Lynnlie Tuschoff
Colleen Sullivan
Attar Mann
Stephanie Maksimow
Katelyn James
Kathy Nation
Brian Hanna
Trista
Ally
Pink
Dale Akstin
and
Corey Deatly
This is a Studio BOTH/AND collaboration: www.somewhereinthepines.com / bothand.fyi For an ad-free experience: cz/studiobothand
For early ad-free episodes and more: www.Patreon.com/somewhereinthepines
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
This is a studio both and collaboration. Somewhere in the
Pines is a serial podcast containing adult content, including descriptions
of violence, sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you for joining us for another installment in the
Chara Call series.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm Dakota and I'm Joshua.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Welcome to Somewhere in the Pines, Episode twelve.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
The expert.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Belize in Meso American culture quickly came into focus when
we receive confirmation from the FBI that the writings on
israel Cell Wall did in fact say Karakol Karakol, one
of the largest Maya archaeological sites in Central America, could
be a place that Israel visited when he went to
Belize in October of two thousand and five. Did Israel
(01:49):
take a victim in or around this location that year?
Although it doesn't seem to fit with statements he made
when asked about potential victims because keys made it seem
that Americans were the only nationality in its crosshairs, nor
does it track with his focus on America and his
suicide note, which was found with him at the time
he wrote Kara Call in the Cell Wall and blood.
(02:11):
As you dive deeper into the research, you begin to
read things that do appear to relate to Keys. Words
like blood letting and caching, just to name a few.
So we knew we needed to find an expert to
help us figure out what the connection might be, if
this South American location is what Keys was hinting at,
or if he adopted any of the practices or philosophies.
(02:31):
This proved to be a harder task than we first expected.
There's a real danger in people speaking on behalf of
the research being done in this part of the world,
and there's a needed protection of the information and culture
that comes along with the research, as many movies and
stories have exploited it over the years. Now, having a
traveling serial killer tied to it is not something that
people in the academic world want to entertain. We feel
(02:53):
fortunate to have found someone that is beyond credentialed who
is willing to speak with us. A phded by our
geologist and a specialist in Maya civilization remains, having written
multiple books in academic journals on the subject. They asked
to remain anonymous simply for protection, but they were willing
to hear us out on Israel's mo and see if
there is any possible connections to the area or its past.
(03:17):
In this initial conversation, we also talk about El Kharakol,
an ancient Maya observatory in Chichinista on the Yucatan Peninsula.
Another location keys was in close Proximity two in two
thousand and eight, named for its circular shape and spiraling staircase.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
I have a lot of questions to start with, too, Okay,
because I've never been approached from a podcast of this
type to you, basically because you're working with the FBI,
I say directly, But then you're kind of, yeah, why
wouldn't the FBI approach me directly? But you, I mean,
(03:55):
what is your role in this investigatation, which is fortunately us.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, so we are not law enforcement. We approached the
FBI to give them information that we've been finding on
the case, and when we did that, they had us
go through a media clearance process that kind of gave
them the ability to share information with us also, so
(04:22):
instead of just us giving them information, they're also giving
us information. It seems like the information so far that
we've been getting from them were the only ones that
have that information. And I don't know. I think that
maybe people aren't asking the right questions and we just
happened to ask some of the right questions. And so
(04:43):
they're kind of sharing a lot of stuff with us
that isn't out there yet. And he and Ted Halla,
the special agent that we're working with, it has been
extremely helpful and he said himself that he wants to
give us this information to help further the investigation and
kind and so it's kind of our responsibility to present
(05:05):
this to the public in a way. We want to
do it responsibly. You know, we wanted to talk to
someone of your caliber, an expert on this subject, so
that we can present this information ethically. Yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,
I wrote to you about the cell writings and that's
where this that's where this connection kind of started. In October,
(05:26):
we're going to release that information of the cell writings.
We know that our audience will have quite a few
questions that we don't know how to answer, and so
that's kind of where you come in.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
My colleagues and I who have been working on on
this from a different, completely different perspective from ritual choreography
and so forth. Specialists from Mexico and like their colleague.
I mean, it's not just me. There are maybe a
dozen colleagues. We're working actively on those topics, so that
(06:02):
haven't been sad. What do you want to know?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
One of the things that we were hoping to do
is to have like this initial conversation with you and
then just to kind of get an idea of if
there is even a connection or if it's just something
that he's simply made up. And it's really we shouldn't
go too far down that rabbit hole as long as
we get the information out to people, so people don't.
We just don't want this to blow up into something
(06:28):
that could be more damaging to your work or anybody
down down south. And we want to just really focus
the investigations so it's not just this crazy, you know,
massive of a problem, you know, So it it'd be
good to be able to come back to you after
we actually present information with the questions that listeners actually have.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Absolutely, I'd be thrilled to yes, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Thank you, awesome.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I don't know what questions you know listeners will have.
The Like Josh said, the main thing that we're trying
to avoid is turning this into like the boogeyman, Hollywood
story or anything like that. We just want we want
the facts. We don't want to add any mystique to
him in the correspondence that we've already had. Do you
see anything in there that really really stands out to
(07:15):
you as a connection.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
I mean, we could start out with the Karakol and
chi Chen. So if you peeked into my article, I
have out there's a part on the caracole. So finally
the skull rack pristine skulls that were stacked vertically mostly vertically,
and that is out that has been out since the
(07:39):
thirties of last century. And I bring this up because
in his last painting, I mean there are twelve victims,
I mean twelve skulls that are pretty much painted. I
don't know how is painting or drawing scuptyle was but yeah,
well maybe painting with his finger and blood wasn't helpful,
(08:02):
but they pretty much look like that's on Mandli platform
in chi Chen. I'm not sure if that could have
been an inspiration and like making a connection to chi
Chen and the Karakol, I'm not sure if he refers
to the Karakol at chi Chen, but since he was
there three years before his death. I understand than for
(08:22):
four years that could be well the case. But then Karakol,
I don't know what else that means in English. Karakol,
it's like like it.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Means a snell. It can be a curl of hair.
And I think also like a directional term with like
a military term. I believe from long long ago that
was used as far as like it was actually a
military exercise where they would going like a giant circle
and attack people in a circle.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
There it could make a lot more sense to me
than the Karakol except for that publication. And then the
only connection I mean, very faint connection I could make
to Chichen and since he's bringing that up, I mean,
is that huge huntly platform with all the skulls that
he is apparently attached to. And then the cart are
(09:19):
called specifically, we hear ADMDI that we give horses to
the tourist guides, and so the tourist guys what they
will do. They will have those folders with kind of
the protected chets. I'm not sure if you've been to
chi Chen, it's like highly it's like a tourist hup.
So millions of people come in each year and so
(09:42):
the well, fortunately for us and everybody, the tourist guides
they're trained and they're certified, so they will run around
with those folders and show the people what like actually happened.
And unfortunately many things are still being made up. But
if that tourist guide was hired by Israel Keith and
(10:08):
then he would show him the pictures, he could have
shown him what Robert found. Giving those courses. I came
across those materials at the National Museum of Anthropology, and
then from a forensic standpoint, I confirmed what Rubert, an
American scholar, had already from the Carnegie had already assumed
(10:35):
ninety years ago that these were impaled. And what strikes
me is that, as you saw, these are twelve skulls,
and that makes it functional so bluntly. So that's the
connection I can draw to the chra Cola. I think
it's very feeble. I think you're you better stick with
(10:56):
the military version of the carac call of something hidden.
So that would be the topic of Chichen and Karacola.
The connection, the hypothetic, hypothetical connection.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I can make when I read the article, that was
the big standout to me was the skull racks in
comparison to that drawing anything about the scalping, I kind
of gave you vague run down on some of his behavior,
So the scalping, the boiling water, or the puncture to
(11:28):
the back because I know that like heart sacrifice, they
went through the front. Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Typically, But they could also like do a like elateral
access and then punctuate the hard and use straws to
draw the bread up blood out. So that was been used.
But this bucket thing, it's not something as Americans would
have done except for Micklante quickly, the god of death.
(11:56):
That's the only representation there's outwards there actually so full
of blood, but it's very rare. What they would do
is basically draw the blood and then point the image
of the deity or the floor or the earth. It's
like an irrigation process, so it's not something that's being
(12:18):
stored doesn't have But that's kind of completely anti as
American to me. It's more like a cul thing.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Maybe.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
You know, there are lots of like those blood cults
that we had here in Mexico in the late eighties,
the Satanikos that was called the draw blood too from
chicken and then also from the necks of human victims,
(12:48):
and there was blood of all over. Fortunately those got caught,
they were killed, and in eighty nine, I believe, yeah,
that was it. But I think what I see here
like this twelfth person, which is kind of the devil,
and it's more like a called a modern cult thing
that doesn't have anything to do with miss America. To me,
(13:09):
probably you should look for further tracks.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Down that road, I suggest, Sorry, he said, So he
became an atheist whenever he was younger, and then he
was also into Satanism for.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
A little while. So yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, we.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Kind of that image is actually a picture of himself
and then that's kind of the way we've sort of
been looking at that. But is that kind of how
you feel about it too.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
By just looking at it? Absolutely, yeah, because then this
was not an animal that was around in pre Hispanic
times for one. And then there are all those crosses,
and these crosses are for me, something that doesn't have
to do with miss America. Miss Americans wouldn't well, I
mean they would put process, but not there. And it's
more like this satan thing to me.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Excellently, as far as the boiling water during an assault.
Was there anything about that that stood out to you
as far as heat exposure or.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Boiling water? There is a functional aspect to it. Could
you just maybe kind of flash that out a little
bit for me because I didn't understand. Yeah, you have
your questions. Two cultural location, was was done with blood
after blood letting, ceremony, heat exposure as it relates to
human sacrifice, He could boil water, Okay, So yeah, boiling
(14:37):
water is something you you you you will do to
flay victim. It makes it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Easier, it like softens the tissue.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Yeah, and it makes it facilitates cutting the skin off.
The question is would the whole victim or the body
part be boiled or just be I mean he boiled
water to like burd that boiling water over the victims.
So that's different aspect. But yeah, I'm not sure how
(15:13):
yeah to interpret that if I don't have the full
picture of it. As Americans, they had a standing called
off sheep, a tautic. It was the flayed one. It
was the one that was being skinned and the skin
would be worn by the priests for a couple of
weeks before it would be taken off again and then
(15:34):
buried and very ceremonious matter, and so it was a
sort of cossetta sort of harvest. So that that that's
a standing ritual choreography. I mean it was I mean
pre Hispanic times, and many of the victims before that
(15:57):
were being he'd exposed facilitate that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Sadly, in that in that instance that where we know
that that happened, that victim, sadly was never recovered, so
we don't have the information to go off of as
far as what wounds were created and things like that.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Okay, okay, So he.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Did describe a lot of his attacks, and we weren't
really sure if the boiling water was used to sterilize,
used to clean up after he committed these acts. So
he never there was never any discussion about any skinning,
but there was dismemberment, and it was just for disposal,
not for personal gain that we know of, and that's
(16:42):
well their hair has been missing, but from victims. But
as far as actual body parts, we don't.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
We have no evidence of that.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
We don't really know exactly what the hot water was
used for, just that he had a stove and that
he had hot water.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
So that's as far as we can really go with that.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Yeah, that doesn't kind of a belt in me from
the best American side. Yeah, it was postmodern mostly.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Is there is there any time that Karacle was presented
in like a popular film or anything that would be
more like pop culture something where he would be able
to reference it?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Yeah, Actually I gave a couple of interviews and programs
like on Chi Chen in which I discussed those, so
he could have had access those big programs that we're
out would not talk about the kindaccoll except for astronomy
and yeah, so I don't think it comes from there
(17:44):
must have been a tourist guide something like that, if
this was a track, that's the connection.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I think.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I watched one of your seminars on YouTube actually, and
you said that you were called two Chitchen in two thousand.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Oh yeah, well I go to Chen a couple of
times per year, but the excavations I was participating and
was in two thousand and nine. Right, yes, that's actually
a more recent program. Yeah, now it comes back right
right right, that was made by Nova.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
I'm just curious the Tower of Skulls, the twelve skulls
that you mentioned, what is that in reference to?
Speaker 5 (18:32):
Is the is there a.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Is there something that that is actually geared towards or
is it just just a display? Is there something a
meaning behind it?
Speaker 5 (18:42):
It's a very good question. It's a function. We call
it function and some blundly it's like a skull wreck,
as it says, So you would put not skulls, but
partially defleshed and partially dismembered skulls, namely what unhinged the
mandible word draw and then put it back and then
(19:02):
basically play those so it would be completely defleshed in
the lower part, but the parts of the face and
the upper part would be still flashed. And it's interesting
because the first of those on Puntley, the functionals on
Pentley a parent were less just excarnated than the latter ones.
(19:25):
And that comes to like it's relevant because the iconography,
the early iconography of the book, for example from no
Pat from Ushmaal, from Koba Kabah excuse me, they still
represent hair on the skulls, partly defleshed faces without the eyeballs,
(19:48):
but they still have clear hair or clinging to the head,
and then the later ones they don't. So that's something
that maybe could be relevant. And if that guy I
visited Ushmal, for example, then he would have likely seen
crossed long bones femurs, and in the corners he would
(20:09):
see like skull masks with the hair like dropping down
from the head like trophy hads. Basically was was hair.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
His hair like a big part of the culture or
anything or is that something that was just.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
Yeah, it's it's it's big in the sense that part
of the turn us to the hair. So if it's
not fixed in the body, for example, and little kids
and babies, then it won't be cut. The hair won't
be cut because they would be really frightened that something
would happen to the baby. And then when it grows older,
(20:51):
and for warriors was important to have the their hair
because it was part of their tonel, their energy. And
then this being cut off when the worry was captured
by the captors, and then that was basically kind of
the token or not the token, it was kind of
(21:13):
the container of energy. It was being cut off. So
part of the person had already vanished before being sacrificed.
When those victims would be sacrificed without their hair, I
mean their personality, their individuality had been considered partly gone.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Ready interesting because so this Israel. We know for sure
that he braided one victim's hair and then cut it off,
and the hair has never been recovered, and it's suspected
that he used other victims hair as a disguise to
go and rob banks. So there's wonder if there's a
(21:50):
possible connection there where if he is claiming the ownership
of these people by taking their hair, is he then
basically it would be devaluing them or they're lesser than
because he's taken ares that? Am I understanding that correctly?
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Yeah? But then that's my question. I mean, did he
have access or would he be sufficiently versed in like
know why and were to look for this type of
literature and normal person would just not know this and
would I mean it would have been very difficult to
have access to that information, more so fifteen years ago.
(22:31):
So I'm not kind of convinced that he would know that.
Ye as American.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Stance, we're not either fully convinced by any of it.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
So yeah, right, I mean you're looking for tracks, and
so I'm just kind of trying to be input from that.
Two thousand and seven, there was an important book that
came out by Houston and colleagues Memory of Bones, which
went into two thousand and six through two thousand and seven.
I'm not sure I can send that to you. So
(23:04):
all that information is in there, like what different body
parts meant and to the ancient Maya and how they
were used. So lots of his there, Yeah, they'd be wonderful,
but that's academic literature, so I'm not sure if that
guy had access to all of that.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I'm not sure how much he had access to. I've
like I've told you, I've seen his the books that
he had in his possession, and everything is very surface
level type tours.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Is there anything on the Maya.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Just like tourism stuff like tour like guide books and
things like that.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
Yeah? Maybe, I mean there's Archaeology, that popular magazine on
archaeology that had lots on the Maya.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I would call.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
But would he like look for those journals?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't
think he wasn't He wasn't highly educated in any sense.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Yeah, I mean, nothing bad about it, But I mean
then in his case, he most probably derived these behaviors
from something else, from these Satan calls. I think that's your.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Better bet, or maybe maybe even meshing, kind of meshing
all these different ideas together, movies, books, things that he's
consumed over the years, that he's just kind of like
pushing all that stuff, all those ideas together, is a possibility.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Did he talk about anything, I mean, to the to
the FB, I maybe you want to ask that, I mean,
what did he mention bring up?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Or I mean, we've listened to a bunch of his
interrogation videos. I think there are maybe just roughly under
thirty so well over forty hours of interrogations, but it
is really hard to listen to. So the question I
(25:08):
had some we so we listened to all the interrogation
audio and read the case file, and it never comes
up anywhere in the case file or the interrogations. And
he had a very special hatred for Americans. He also
wrote a suicide note that was basically a manifesto about
hating Americans and just like they're crazy and un educated
(25:31):
and all this stuff. It's just strange that he basically
also said like the only only victims I count our Americans.
So it's been weird to see this connection to Karacole
in there where it doesn't really fit into any other
part of the case. We don't know if it's a
red herring or if there's something if it's completely outside
(25:51):
of the location and more towards one of the other
definitions like the snail or the hair or something like that.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
Yeah, I was one wondering, I mean, would he commit
crimes also in Mexico or was this kind of off
limits where would he commit crimes? I mean, it's apparently
all already in the US, very particularly meticulously plan but
not outside of the US. So it's where like he
(26:18):
went off and he took off and then he took
a vacation and then just kind of like yeah, let's yeah,
let things settle down and calm down, and it's more
like a relief area than anything else, or would you
think otherwise wise?
Speaker 4 (26:38):
I think that's that's spot on. We just weren't sure
if maybe he killed an American while he was visiting there,
and that's that's how the correlation is. But the writing
on the cell, that specific word is probably about seven
to nine inches tall, the letters each letter, so it's
pretty a pretty large writing in blood. And then there's
(26:59):
other connected piece of writing on a bench next to
next to the wall as well, Dakota, have you mentioned
this yet, I I d an email.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Yeah, but you can, you can definitely bring it up and.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
So okay, yeah, so the so he also wrote in blood,
if the only blood was mine, I would spill it,
so having the characle written on the wall and in
smaller letters, if the only blood is mine, I would
spill it. And then also a suicide note that was
directed all towards American victims. We're just wondering how that's
(27:30):
all connected in any way.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
But there's no word on Chi chain and that's suicide
not happening. Yeah, then I would doubt that this is
the correct recall, except for maybe getting the inspiration of
how to draw those skulls, which are pretty much how
they're represented on the on the platform. But yeah, other
(27:53):
from that, I'm not sure. I mean, maybe you need
to imagine that during that time, the organized crime right
was incredibly high in Mexico and it has been always
very very cruel, and so the gang members they're right
(28:13):
now like half a dozen or a dozen different gangs,
they have their protocols of how to torture and kill victims.
So probably, I mean, if I would think of his
mind this type of mind he should be obsessed with,
like learning more about those ways of killing people, decapitations
(28:35):
and burning victims and yeah, I mean harming them. That
could have been something that he was actively looking for.
I don't know how, but since he didn't have well, yeah,
he had access to the internet, so he could just
google it probably at that time, but that probably has
(28:55):
been researched by the FBI already through the computers. That
could be another lead. I mean going to Mexico and
then hearing about all the primes and and yeah, and
the tortures. I don't know if that could be a
lead lead.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Everything's basically surface level though, there's no there's no real
strong connection that you're falling from it, which is probably
good because that could just be okay, you know, if
it's if there is a strong connection.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Does the does the phrase if if the only blood
was mine, I would spill it. That doesn't ring any bells.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
Yeah, that's it sounds like self sacrifice. I would spill it.
I would donate it. I will. I would very stupid,
I think to say, but yeah, I would just offer it.
It's like self sacrifice. Yes, But since it's all these victims,
(29:59):
then it's not self sacrifice he has. Yeah, it doesn't
make much sense to me. But what I suggest, and
I'm sure you have done, is dick deeper into the
Satanist and the cult literature. I think then it would
kind of connect not from the mess American Standwoyd. I'm
(30:22):
happy to show you, and so I will share. Yeah,
that's tough. Do you see my screen? Yes, yeah, that's
a colleague of mine, a dear colleague, and I were
working on a book on hard sacrifice right now. And
this image that you see here is from the Maglia
(30:44):
Vetiano Codets and it shows Miklendekutli, who is the god
of death. He's all skeletnized, I mean, he was his
claus as this monster. And here you have this classic
imagery of the crossbowes and the partly fleshed skulls with
the unhinged lower jaws, and there is the statue, and
(31:08):
on top of the statue there's a practitioner who is
spilling the blood contained in a vessel on top of
that statue over it. Wow. And that's the only image
that the very very few images that we came across.
Typically what you have is you there's this blood that
(31:33):
is being shed. It's it's it's represented as like lines,
it's it's a contained liquids, it's it spills. It has
signs of being sacred, it has signs of being vitalized.
So it has often it contains reddish bluish turquoise dots,
(31:57):
which are the signs for it. It's being sacred and vitalizing.
Here's a scene of self sacrifice by an astex from Duran,
and that's what was done to the kids. I mean,
from very early on they were asked to self sacrifice,
to offer their blood, and that was done with spines,
(32:19):
with cutting implements, obsidians, et cetera, but more like a
self penance. Yeah. Here, so I don't think that this
has Yeah, this is the opening of the heart of
the victim. And here you see the blood. But again,
(32:39):
I don't see that there's any direct connection to that guy.
It's a different idea and meaning altogether to it. So
we can go back to the screen. Yeah, so I
think that's what I have to offer. If there's anything
else that you would.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Like to know.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Sacrifice in and around kitchen it was more violent than
other places.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Oh, absolutely, yes, infirmative, Yeah, absolutely. I mean it was
the catalysis of and then Karak coll I think I
didn't bring it up. And then again I think this
guy didn't kind of have access to that information. The
Karak coil was the place where people from Tula from
(33:24):
other There's the tenor stone if it's called. It's like
with the inscriptions and it shows like a group from
very far away that bring a dog and their meeting.
And so the whole ritual choreography, the violence that was
present in Central Mexico suddenly chose up in Chichen and
it's big, I mean it's massified. You have the biggest
(33:46):
sob pundly platform all over mes America, the biggest ball
came game, which is I mean the ball court, which
was the place where those victims were sacrificed most probably
the first place. And these all these kind of ritual
circuits which are I have highly redundant, austere iconography of
(34:07):
heart sacrifices, decapitation. I mean you walk through it and
it's intimidating. Yeah, and then just to talk to on
the sacred Sonata, which also holds the remnants of those victims,
it's yeah, that's something that you don't see in other
sides to the level and the degree of violence that
(34:28):
is displayed in Chichen's center. Basically, when a some pintly
is bellgrack ceases to function, they just bury it and
then continue with the subsequent burial construction phase. So they
just build over it. And it's in the lower sequence.
(34:49):
It's in the lower strata, in the lower levels, and
that's where Robert doing the twenties thirties found those. And
you won't see anything of those except for the drawing
that appears in his book Publication of the Carnegie. So
that's everything there's to it. There's nothing that can be
(35:12):
seen but interestingly associated to that. They basically kind of
they obliterated that, They buried that, and then they constructed
the subsequent platform, and in that platform they raised or
they allocated that stela you may call it. It's a
(35:33):
roundstone with inscriptions and representations of those newcomers from far
away that symbolize and they well they mean to represent.
They represent basically the connection, the encounter of two important
parts of meso America. And basically, yeah, the ritual like
(35:56):
renewal that came from that. It was like a renewal
in an era of renewed sacrifice, an era of yeah,
at the dawn of a new era to them, and
it's basically represented at the caracle after sacrifice. Typically there,
since the body is sacred, it's divine, it's so there's
(36:16):
so much energy energy that mes Americans believed clung to it.
They would keep on processing it. So typically they would
stick the head to one place or exhibit it, then
the heart would go to the other place, another sanctuary,
and so forth. So typically you won't find in complete
(36:41):
victims talking about the post classic era in mes America
because they were highly processed. Typically they were just not
only ritually emulated, killed, but then they were kept on
being used because they were sacred. Their bodies our sacred,
their corpses were sacred. I hope that you can find
(37:06):
out more about this case and probably come across more victims. Sadly,
but probably that's the way to go.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah, Well, good luck, so much, so much, you too,
Thank you so much, thank bye bye to Thanks for
(37:42):
listening to this episode of Somewhere in the Pines. Remember
to subscribe and drop a review. If you want to
support the show, please join us on Patreon at patreon
dot com. Forward slash somewhere in the pines. As always,
we'd like to give a very special thank you to
our Patreon producers, Heather Horton, Whedon, Nicole Gooseman, Calling Sullivan,
Linley tushof A Turman, Caitlin James, Stephanie Maximo, Brian Hannah,
(38:07):
Kathy Nation, Ali Pink, Trista Dale, Axidon, and Corey Deatley.
Speaker 5 (38:47):
Yeah, if he would have I mean, would he he
came into Concoon? I suppose, because if he was in Concuon,
then that could kind of have triggered his hatred for Americans.
Not not to say that, but I mean it's kind
of tourist. It's a tourist hub, and it's like they
(39:07):
stand out
This is a studio both and collaboration. Somewhere in the
Pines is a serial podcast containing adult content, including descriptions
of violence, sexual assault, and suicide. Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you for joining us for another installment in the
Chara Call series.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm Dakota and I'm Joshua.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
Welcome to Somewhere in the Pines, Episode twelve.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
The expert.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Belize in Meso American culture quickly came into focus when
we receive confirmation from the FBI that the writings on
israel Cell Wall did in fact say Karakol Karakol, one
of the largest Maya archaeological sites in Central America, could
be a place that Israel visited when he went to
Belize in October of two thousand and five. Did Israel
(01:49):
take a victim in or around this location that year?
Although it doesn't seem to fit with statements he made
when asked about potential victims because keys made it seem
that Americans were the only nationality in its crosshairs, nor
does it track with his focus on America and his
suicide note, which was found with him at the time
he wrote Kara Call in the Cell Wall and blood.
(02:11):
As you dive deeper into the research, you begin to
read things that do appear to relate to Keys. Words
like blood letting and caching, just to name a few.
So we knew we needed to find an expert to
help us figure out what the connection might be, if
this South American location is what Keys was hinting at,
or if he adopted any of the practices or philosophies.
(02:31):
This proved to be a harder task than we first expected.
There's a real danger in people speaking on behalf of
the research being done in this part of the world,
and there's a needed protection of the information and culture
that comes along with the research, as many movies and
stories have exploited it over the years. Now, having a
traveling serial killer tied to it is not something that
people in the academic world want to entertain. We feel
(02:53):
fortunate to have found someone that is beyond credentialed who
is willing to speak with us. A phded by our
geologist and a specialist in Maya civilization remains, having written
multiple books in academic journals on the subject. They asked
to remain anonymous simply for protection, but they were willing
to hear us out on Israel's mo and see if
there is any possible connections to the area or its past.
(03:17):
In this initial conversation, we also talk about El Kharakol,
an ancient Maya observatory in Chichinista on the Yucatan Peninsula.
Another location keys was in close Proximity two in two
thousand and eight, named for its circular shape and spiraling staircase.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
I have a lot of questions to start with, too, Okay,
because I've never been approached from a podcast of this
type to you, basically because you're working with the FBI,
I say directly, But then you're kind of, yeah, why
wouldn't the FBI approach me directly? But you, I mean,
(03:55):
what is your role in this investigatation, which is fortunately us.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, so we are not law enforcement. We approached the
FBI to give them information that we've been finding on
the case, and when we did that, they had us
go through a media clearance process that kind of gave
them the ability to share information with us also, so
(04:22):
instead of just us giving them information, they're also giving
us information. It seems like the information so far that
we've been getting from them were the only ones that
have that information. And I don't know. I think that
maybe people aren't asking the right questions and we just
happened to ask some of the right questions. And so
(04:43):
they're kind of sharing a lot of stuff with us
that isn't out there yet. And he and Ted Halla,
the special agent that we're working with, it has been
extremely helpful and he said himself that he wants to
give us this information to help further the investigation and
kind and so it's kind of our responsibility to present
(05:05):
this to the public in a way. We want to
do it responsibly. You know, we wanted to talk to
someone of your caliber, an expert on this subject, so
that we can present this information ethically. Yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,
I wrote to you about the cell writings and that's
where this that's where this connection kind of started. In October,
(05:26):
we're going to release that information of the cell writings.
We know that our audience will have quite a few
questions that we don't know how to answer, and so
that's kind of where you come in.
Speaker 5 (05:38):
My colleagues and I who have been working on on
this from a different, completely different perspective from ritual choreography
and so forth. Specialists from Mexico and like their colleague.
I mean, it's not just me. There are maybe a
dozen colleagues. We're working actively on those topics, so that
(06:02):
haven't been sad. What do you want to know?
Speaker 4 (06:06):
One of the things that we were hoping to do
is to have like this initial conversation with you and
then just to kind of get an idea of if
there is even a connection or if it's just something
that he's simply made up. And it's really we shouldn't
go too far down that rabbit hole as long as
we get the information out to people, so people don't.
We just don't want this to blow up into something
(06:28):
that could be more damaging to your work or anybody
down down south. And we want to just really focus
the investigations so it's not just this crazy, you know,
massive of a problem, you know, So it it'd be
good to be able to come back to you after
we actually present information with the questions that listeners actually have.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
Absolutely, I'd be thrilled to yes, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Thank you, awesome.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
I don't know what questions you know listeners will have.
The Like Josh said, the main thing that we're trying
to avoid is turning this into like the boogeyman, Hollywood
story or anything like that. We just want we want
the facts. We don't want to add any mystique to
him in the correspondence that we've already had. Do you
see anything in there that really really stands out to
(07:15):
you as a connection.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
I mean, we could start out with the Karakol and
chi Chen. So if you peeked into my article, I
have out there's a part on the caracole. So finally
the skull rack pristine skulls that were stacked vertically mostly vertically,
and that is out that has been out since the
(07:39):
thirties of last century. And I bring this up because
in his last painting, I mean there are twelve victims,
I mean twelve skulls that are pretty much painted. I
don't know how is painting or drawing scuptyle was but yeah,
well maybe painting with his finger and blood wasn't helpful,
(08:02):
but they pretty much look like that's on Mandli platform
in chi Chen. I'm not sure if that could have
been an inspiration and like making a connection to chi
Chen and the Karakol, I'm not sure if he refers
to the Karakol at chi Chen, but since he was
there three years before his death. I understand than for
(08:22):
four years that could be well the case. But then Karakol,
I don't know what else that means in English. Karakol,
it's like like it.
Speaker 4 (08:33):
Means a snell. It can be a curl of hair.
And I think also like a directional term with like
a military term. I believe from long long ago that
was used as far as like it was actually a
military exercise where they would going like a giant circle
and attack people in a circle.
Speaker 5 (08:53):
There it could make a lot more sense to me
than the Karakol except for that publication. And then the
only connection I mean, very faint connection I could make
to Chichen and since he's bringing that up, I mean,
is that huge huntly platform with all the skulls that
he is apparently attached to. And then the cart are
(09:19):
called specifically, we hear ADMDI that we give horses to
the tourist guides, and so the tourist guys what they
will do. They will have those folders with kind of
the protected chets. I'm not sure if you've been to
chi Chen, it's like highly it's like a tourist hup.
So millions of people come in each year and so
(09:42):
the well, fortunately for us and everybody, the tourist guides
they're trained and they're certified, so they will run around
with those folders and show the people what like actually happened.
And unfortunately many things are still being made up. But
if that tourist guide was hired by Israel Keith and
(10:08):
then he would show him the pictures, he could have
shown him what Robert found. Giving those courses. I came
across those materials at the National Museum of Anthropology, and
then from a forensic standpoint, I confirmed what Rubert, an
American scholar, had already from the Carnegie had already assumed
(10:35):
ninety years ago that these were impaled. And what strikes
me is that, as you saw, these are twelve skulls,
and that makes it functional so bluntly. So that's the
connection I can draw to the chra Cola. I think
it's very feeble. I think you're you better stick with
(10:56):
the military version of the carac call of something hidden.
So that would be the topic of Chichen and Karacola.
The connection, the hypothetic, hypothetical connection.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I can make when I read the article, that was
the big standout to me was the skull racks in
comparison to that drawing anything about the scalping, I kind
of gave you vague run down on some of his behavior,
So the scalping, the boiling water, or the puncture to
(11:28):
the back because I know that like heart sacrifice, they
went through the front. Is that correct?
Speaker 5 (11:33):
Typically, But they could also like do a like elateral
access and then punctuate the hard and use straws to
draw the bread up blood out. So that was been used.
But this bucket thing, it's not something as Americans would
have done except for Micklante quickly, the god of death.
(11:56):
That's the only representation there's outwards there actually so full
of blood, but it's very rare. What they would do
is basically draw the blood and then point the image
of the deity or the floor or the earth. It's
like an irrigation process, so it's not something that's being
(12:18):
stored doesn't have But that's kind of completely anti as
American to me. It's more like a cul thing.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
Maybe.
Speaker 5 (12:28):
You know, there are lots of like those blood cults
that we had here in Mexico in the late eighties,
the Satanikos that was called the draw blood too from
chicken and then also from the necks of human victims,
(12:48):
and there was blood of all over. Fortunately those got caught,
they were killed, and in eighty nine, I believe, yeah,
that was it. But I think what I see here
like this twelfth person, which is kind of the devil,
and it's more like a called a modern cult thing
that doesn't have anything to do with miss America. To me,
(13:09):
probably you should look for further tracks.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
Down that road, I suggest, Sorry, he said, So he
became an atheist whenever he was younger, and then he
was also into Satanism for.
Speaker 5 (13:22):
A little while. So yeah, that's it. Yeah, yeah, we.
Speaker 4 (13:25):
Kind of that image is actually a picture of himself
and then that's kind of the way we've sort of
been looking at that. But is that kind of how
you feel about it too.
Speaker 5 (13:35):
By just looking at it? Absolutely, yeah, because then this
was not an animal that was around in pre Hispanic
times for one. And then there are all those crosses,
and these crosses are for me, something that doesn't have
to do with miss America. Miss Americans wouldn't well, I
mean they would put process, but not there. And it's
more like this satan thing to me.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Excellently, as far as the boiling water during an assault.
Was there anything about that that stood out to you
as far as heat exposure or.
Speaker 5 (14:10):
Boiling water? There is a functional aspect to it. Could
you just maybe kind of flash that out a little
bit for me because I didn't understand. Yeah, you have
your questions. Two cultural location, was was done with blood
after blood letting, ceremony, heat exposure as it relates to
human sacrifice, He could boil water, Okay, So yeah, boiling
(14:37):
water is something you you you you will do to
flay victim. It makes it.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
Easier, it like softens the tissue.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
Yeah, and it makes it facilitates cutting the skin off.
The question is would the whole victim or the body
part be boiled or just be I mean he boiled
water to like burd that boiling water over the victims.
So that's different aspect. But yeah, I'm not sure how
(15:13):
yeah to interpret that if I don't have the full
picture of it. As Americans, they had a standing called
off sheep, a tautic. It was the flayed one. It
was the one that was being skinned and the skin
would be worn by the priests for a couple of
weeks before it would be taken off again and then
(15:34):
buried and very ceremonious matter, and so it was a
sort of cossetta sort of harvest. So that that that's
a standing ritual choreography. I mean it was I mean
pre Hispanic times, and many of the victims before that
(15:57):
were being he'd exposed facilitate that.
Speaker 3 (16:03):
Sadly, in that in that instance that where we know
that that happened, that victim, sadly was never recovered, so
we don't have the information to go off of as
far as what wounds were created and things like that.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Okay, okay, So he.
Speaker 4 (16:19):
Did describe a lot of his attacks, and we weren't
really sure if the boiling water was used to sterilize,
used to clean up after he committed these acts. So
he never there was never any discussion about any skinning,
but there was dismemberment, and it was just for disposal,
not for personal gain that we know of, and that's
(16:42):
well their hair has been missing, but from victims. But
as far as actual body parts, we don't.
Speaker 5 (16:49):
We have no evidence of that.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
We don't really know exactly what the hot water was
used for, just that he had a stove and that
he had hot water.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
So that's as far as we can really go with that.
Speaker 5 (16:58):
Yeah, that doesn't kind of a belt in me from
the best American side. Yeah, it was postmodern mostly.
Speaker 4 (17:08):
Is there is there any time that Karacle was presented
in like a popular film or anything that would be
more like pop culture something where he would be able
to reference it?
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (17:20):
Yeah, Actually I gave a couple of interviews and programs
like on Chi Chen in which I discussed those, so
he could have had access those big programs that we're
out would not talk about the kindaccoll except for astronomy
and yeah, so I don't think it comes from there
(17:44):
must have been a tourist guide something like that, if
this was a track, that's the connection.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
I think.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
I watched one of your seminars on YouTube actually, and
you said that you were called two Chitchen in two thousand.
Speaker 5 (18:00):
Oh yeah, well I go to Chen a couple of
times per year, but the excavations I was participating and
was in two thousand and nine. Right, yes, that's actually
a more recent program. Yeah, now it comes back right
right right, that was made by Nova.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
I'm just curious the Tower of Skulls, the twelve skulls
that you mentioned, what is that in reference to?
Speaker 5 (18:32):
Is the is there a.
Speaker 4 (18:34):
Is there something that that is actually geared towards or
is it just just a display? Is there something a
meaning behind it?
Speaker 5 (18:42):
It's a very good question. It's a function. We call
it function and some blundly it's like a skull wreck,
as it says, So you would put not skulls, but
partially defleshed and partially dismembered skulls, namely what unhinged the
mandible word draw and then put it back and then
(19:02):
basically play those so it would be completely defleshed in
the lower part, but the parts of the face and
the upper part would be still flashed. And it's interesting
because the first of those on Puntley, the functionals on
Pentley a parent were less just excarnated than the latter ones.
(19:25):
And that comes to like it's relevant because the iconography,
the early iconography of the book, for example from no
Pat from Ushmaal, from Koba Kabah excuse me, they still
represent hair on the skulls, partly defleshed faces without the eyeballs,
(19:48):
but they still have clear hair or clinging to the head,
and then the later ones they don't. So that's something
that maybe could be relevant. And if that guy I
visited Ushmal, for example, then he would have likely seen
crossed long bones femurs, and in the corners he would
(20:09):
see like skull masks with the hair like dropping down
from the head like trophy hads. Basically was was hair.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
His hair like a big part of the culture or
anything or is that something that was just.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
Yeah, it's it's it's big in the sense that part
of the turn us to the hair. So if it's
not fixed in the body, for example, and little kids
and babies, then it won't be cut. The hair won't
be cut because they would be really frightened that something
would happen to the baby. And then when it grows older,
(20:51):
and for warriors was important to have the their hair
because it was part of their tonel, their energy. And
then this being cut off when the worry was captured
by the captors, and then that was basically kind of
the token or not the token, it was kind of
(21:13):
the container of energy. It was being cut off. So
part of the person had already vanished before being sacrificed.
When those victims would be sacrificed without their hair, I
mean their personality, their individuality had been considered partly gone.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
Ready interesting because so this Israel. We know for sure
that he braided one victim's hair and then cut it off,
and the hair has never been recovered, and it's suspected
that he used other victims hair as a disguise to
go and rob banks. So there's wonder if there's a
(21:50):
possible connection there where if he is claiming the ownership
of these people by taking their hair, is he then
basically it would be devaluing them or they're lesser than
because he's taken ares that? Am I understanding that correctly?
Speaker 5 (22:07):
Yeah? But then that's my question. I mean, did he
have access or would he be sufficiently versed in like
know why and were to look for this type of
literature and normal person would just not know this and
would I mean it would have been very difficult to
have access to that information, more so fifteen years ago.
(22:31):
So I'm not kind of convinced that he would know that.
Ye as American.
Speaker 3 (22:37):
Stance, we're not either fully convinced by any of it.
Speaker 5 (22:43):
So yeah, right, I mean you're looking for tracks, and
so I'm just kind of trying to be input from that.
Two thousand and seven, there was an important book that
came out by Houston and colleagues Memory of Bones, which
went into two thousand and six through two thousand and seven.
I'm not sure I can send that to you. So
(23:04):
all that information is in there, like what different body
parts meant and to the ancient Maya and how they
were used. So lots of his there, Yeah, they'd be wonderful,
but that's academic literature, so I'm not sure if that
guy had access to all of that.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I'm not sure how much he had access to. I've
like I've told you, I've seen his the books that
he had in his possession, and everything is very surface
level type tours.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Is there anything on the Maya.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
Just like tourism stuff like tour like guide books and
things like that.
Speaker 5 (23:46):
Yeah? Maybe, I mean there's Archaeology, that popular magazine on
archaeology that had lots on the Maya.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
I would call.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
But would he like look for those journals?
Speaker 3 (23:59):
I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't
think he wasn't He wasn't highly educated in any sense.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
Yeah, I mean, nothing bad about it, But I mean
then in his case, he most probably derived these behaviors
from something else, from these Satan calls. I think that's your.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Better bet, or maybe maybe even meshing, kind of meshing
all these different ideas together, movies, books, things that he's
consumed over the years, that he's just kind of like
pushing all that stuff, all those ideas together, is a possibility.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
Did he talk about anything, I mean, to the to
the FB, I maybe you want to ask that, I mean,
what did he mention bring up?
Speaker 4 (24:48):
Or I mean, we've listened to a bunch of his
interrogation videos. I think there are maybe just roughly under
thirty so well over forty hours of interrogations, but it
is really hard to listen to. So the question I
(25:08):
had some we so we listened to all the interrogation
audio and read the case file, and it never comes
up anywhere in the case file or the interrogations. And
he had a very special hatred for Americans. He also
wrote a suicide note that was basically a manifesto about
hating Americans and just like they're crazy and un educated
(25:31):
and all this stuff. It's just strange that he basically
also said like the only only victims I count our Americans.
So it's been weird to see this connection to Karacole
in there where it doesn't really fit into any other
part of the case. We don't know if it's a
red herring or if there's something if it's completely outside
(25:51):
of the location and more towards one of the other
definitions like the snail or the hair or something like that.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
Yeah, I was one wondering, I mean, would he commit
crimes also in Mexico or was this kind of off
limits where would he commit crimes? I mean, it's apparently
all already in the US, very particularly meticulously plan but
not outside of the US. So it's where like he
(26:18):
went off and he took off and then he took
a vacation and then just kind of like yeah, let's yeah,
let things settle down and calm down, and it's more
like a relief area than anything else, or would you
think otherwise wise?
Speaker 4 (26:38):
I think that's that's spot on. We just weren't sure
if maybe he killed an American while he was visiting there,
and that's that's how the correlation is. But the writing
on the cell, that specific word is probably about seven
to nine inches tall, the letters each letter, so it's
pretty a pretty large writing in blood. And then there's
(26:59):
other connected piece of writing on a bench next to
next to the wall as well, Dakota, have you mentioned
this yet, I I d an email.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Yeah, but you can, you can definitely bring it up and.
Speaker 4 (27:08):
So okay, yeah, so the so he also wrote in blood,
if the only blood was mine, I would spill it,
so having the characle written on the wall and in
smaller letters, if the only blood is mine, I would
spill it. And then also a suicide note that was
directed all towards American victims. We're just wondering how that's
(27:30):
all connected in any way.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
But there's no word on Chi chain and that's suicide
not happening. Yeah, then I would doubt that this is
the correct recall, except for maybe getting the inspiration of
how to draw those skulls, which are pretty much how
they're represented on the on the platform. But yeah, other
(27:53):
from that, I'm not sure. I mean, maybe you need
to imagine that during that time, the organized crime right
was incredibly high in Mexico and it has been always
very very cruel, and so the gang members they're right
(28:13):
now like half a dozen or a dozen different gangs,
they have their protocols of how to torture and kill victims.
So probably, I mean, if I would think of his
mind this type of mind he should be obsessed with,
like learning more about those ways of killing people, decapitations
(28:35):
and burning victims and yeah, I mean harming them. That
could have been something that he was actively looking for.
I don't know how, but since he didn't have well, yeah,
he had access to the internet, so he could just
google it probably at that time, but that probably has
(28:55):
been researched by the FBI already through the computers. That
could be another lead. I mean going to Mexico and
then hearing about all the primes and and yeah, and
the tortures. I don't know if that could be a
lead lead.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
Everything's basically surface level though, there's no there's no real
strong connection that you're falling from it, which is probably
good because that could just be okay, you know, if
it's if there is a strong connection.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
Does the does the phrase if if the only blood
was mine, I would spill it. That doesn't ring any bells.
Speaker 5 (29:34):
Yeah, that's it sounds like self sacrifice. I would spill it.
I would donate it. I will. I would very stupid,
I think to say, but yeah, I would just offer it.
It's like self sacrifice. Yes, But since it's all these victims,
(29:59):
then it's not self sacrifice he has. Yeah, it doesn't
make much sense to me. But what I suggest, and
I'm sure you have done, is dick deeper into the
Satanist and the cult literature. I think then it would
kind of connect not from the mess American Standwoyd. I'm
(30:22):
happy to show you, and so I will share. Yeah,
that's tough. Do you see my screen? Yes, yeah, that's
a colleague of mine, a dear colleague, and I were
working on a book on hard sacrifice right now. And
this image that you see here is from the Maglia
(30:44):
Vetiano Codets and it shows Miklendekutli, who is the god
of death. He's all skeletnized, I mean, he was his
claus as this monster. And here you have this classic
imagery of the crossbowes and the partly fleshed skulls with
the unhinged lower jaws, and there is the statue, and
(31:08):
on top of the statue there's a practitioner who is
spilling the blood contained in a vessel on top of
that statue over it. Wow. And that's the only image
that the very very few images that we came across.
Typically what you have is you there's this blood that
(31:33):
is being shed. It's it's it's represented as like lines,
it's it's a contained liquids, it's it spills. It has
signs of being sacred, it has signs of being vitalized.
So it has often it contains reddish bluish turquoise dots,
(31:57):
which are the signs for it. It's being sacred and vitalizing.
Here's a scene of self sacrifice by an astex from Duran,
and that's what was done to the kids. I mean,
from very early on they were asked to self sacrifice,
to offer their blood, and that was done with spines,
(32:19):
with cutting implements, obsidians, et cetera, but more like a
self penance. Yeah. Here, so I don't think that this
has Yeah, this is the opening of the heart of
the victim. And here you see the blood. But again,
(32:39):
I don't see that there's any direct connection to that guy.
It's a different idea and meaning altogether to it. So
we can go back to the screen. Yeah, so I
think that's what I have to offer. If there's anything
else that you would.
Speaker 1 (32:57):
Like to know.
Speaker 3 (32:58):
Sacrifice in and around kitchen it was more violent than
other places.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Oh, absolutely, yes, infirmative, Yeah, absolutely. I mean it was
the catalysis of and then Karak coll I think I
didn't bring it up. And then again I think this
guy didn't kind of have access to that information. The
Karak coil was the place where people from Tula from
(33:24):
other There's the tenor stone if it's called. It's like
with the inscriptions and it shows like a group from
very far away that bring a dog and their meeting.
And so the whole ritual choreography, the violence that was
present in Central Mexico suddenly chose up in Chichen and
it's big, I mean it's massified. You have the biggest
(33:46):
sob pundly platform all over mes America, the biggest ball
came game, which is I mean the ball court, which
was the place where those victims were sacrificed most probably
the first place. And these all these kind of ritual
circuits which are I have highly redundant, austere iconography of
(34:07):
heart sacrifices, decapitation. I mean you walk through it and
it's intimidating. Yeah, and then just to talk to on
the sacred Sonata, which also holds the remnants of those victims,
it's yeah, that's something that you don't see in other
sides to the level and the degree of violence that
(34:28):
is displayed in Chichen's center. Basically, when a some pintly
is bellgrack ceases to function, they just bury it and
then continue with the subsequent burial construction phase. So they
just build over it. And it's in the lower sequence.
(34:49):
It's in the lower strata, in the lower levels, and
that's where Robert doing the twenties thirties found those. And
you won't see anything of those except for the drawing
that appears in his book Publication of the Carnegie. So
that's everything there's to it. There's nothing that can be
(35:12):
seen but interestingly associated to that. They basically kind of
they obliterated that, They buried that, and then they constructed
the subsequent platform, and in that platform they raised or
they allocated that stela you may call it. It's a
(35:33):
roundstone with inscriptions and representations of those newcomers from far
away that symbolize and they well they mean to represent.
They represent basically the connection, the encounter of two important
parts of meso America. And basically, yeah, the ritual like
(35:56):
renewal that came from that. It was like a renewal
in an era of renewed sacrifice, an era of yeah,
at the dawn of a new era to them, and
it's basically represented at the caracle after sacrifice. Typically there,
since the body is sacred, it's divine, it's so there's
(36:16):
so much energy energy that mes Americans believed clung to it.
They would keep on processing it. So typically they would
stick the head to one place or exhibit it, then
the heart would go to the other place, another sanctuary,
and so forth. So typically you won't find in complete
(36:41):
victims talking about the post classic era in mes America
because they were highly processed. Typically they were just not
only ritually emulated, killed, but then they were kept on
being used because they were sacred. Their bodies our sacred,
their corpses were sacred. I hope that you can find
(37:06):
out more about this case and probably come across more victims. Sadly,
but probably that's the way to go.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Yeah, Well, good luck, so much, so much, you too,
Thank you so much, thank bye bye to Thanks for
(37:42):
listening to this episode of Somewhere in the Pines. Remember
to subscribe and drop a review. If you want to
support the show, please join us on Patreon at patreon
dot com. Forward slash somewhere in the pines. As always,
we'd like to give a very special thank you to
our Patreon producers, Heather Horton, Whedon, Nicole Gooseman, Calling Sullivan,
Linley tushof A Turman, Caitlin James, Stephanie Maximo, Brian Hannah,
(38:07):
Kathy Nation, Ali Pink, Trista Dale, Axidon, and Corey Deatley.
Speaker 5 (38:47):
Yeah, if he would have I mean, would he he
came into Concoon? I suppose, because if he was in Concuon,
then that could kind of have triggered his hatred for Americans.
Not not to say that, but I mean it's kind
of tourist. It's a tourist hub, and it's like they
(39:07):
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