June 14, 2024 • 31 mins
In this compelling episode, Martina sits down with guest Courage to delve into the pervasive issue of colorism. They explore its deep-rooted impact on society today and discuss why it's crucial to confront and challenge these biases. Tune in for an enlightening conversation that sheds light on the importance of embracing all shades of beauty.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
What's Up Everybody. Welcome to theChatroom, a podcast dedicated with having interviews
with upcoming stars and influencers of ourgeneration. Please follow us on Facebook and
Instagram at the chatroom dot tcr andon Twitter at the chatroom Underscore TCR first,
so don't forget to become wonder ofour valued Patreon members, which allows
(00:21):
you to unlock exclusive content while alsosupporting this podcast. Enjoy the episode What's
Up Everybody? This is your hosttoday, Martina and I am joined by
the wonderful miscourage Cousinna, who isgoing to be talking to us about colorism.
(00:42):
And this one is not really aninterview per se. It's more like
a talk between two sisters, becausethis is my little sister, so it's
more like a discussion than an interview. So, Courage, how are you
doing. I'm doing well. I'mdoing pretty well. I hope you will
too. I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful. Right, Oh yeah, I guess
let's just get straight into it.But obviously we have to start off with
(01:04):
a definition because maybe people don't actuallyknow what we are talking about today.
So if you could actually just giveus a definition of what colorism is,
so people don't often come across theterm colorism as much as they come across
terms like racism. And there's onereally great definition that I like to use
(01:26):
for colorism that I found, likeon this Instagram page called darkest You.
So colorism is the preferential treatment ofsame race people with lighter skin and the
prejudice treatment of same race people withdark skin. So the idea behind colorism
is lighter skin is better than darkerskin, and that's how that's the power
(01:47):
dynamic of it. So all ofthese things have power dynamics in them,
and colorism is a po dynamic thatbasically enables lighter skin to be seen as
better or preferred or wanted or anythinggood when compared to darker skin, which
is seen as something that is undesirable, ugly, poor, and all these
(02:08):
negative connotations. All right, allright, I get you. So what
if, right, let's say I'ma white girl and I say I don't
like light skin, Like I's notin terms of like dating men, but
just in general, I just don'tlike them. I prefer darker skinned guys.
Would that fall into the lines ofracism or colorism? Like where doesn't
(02:30):
fall? So if probably fall intothe lines of fetishization because and just all
of this all sense from racism.But there has been a trend in history
in general where dark men, darkerskinned men are fetishized by different races because
they are seen as like the closestthing to like African or really, like
(02:53):
really black. So there's that ideaof fetishization when it comes to men,
and then when it comes to women, there's just it's pretty much just colorism.
But we do see different forms offatalization. But all these diem from
just racism. They're all basically aftermad of racism. Okay, awesome,
(03:15):
So now let's get into practical examples. Right As a black girl, I'm
sure you have experienced it obviously whatwe are talking about today, So maybe
just relay for us one occasion ormaybe if you want more than one occasion
where you actually fell victim to colorism. So my experience is being going through
(03:38):
colorism. I can give an example, like very practical example. On my
Instagram. I have pictures where Ilook darker skinned, closer to my shades.
So let's say I have an unfilteredpicture and I have like my natural
hair and my skin unfiltered Whereas ifI post a picture with the filter that
makes me either look lighter or they'ssay the sun is doing the job,
(04:00):
the sun is doing the things right, and I look lighter than I actually
am. The pictures where I looklighter actually have more likes, significantly more
likes than the pictures where I actuallylook darker. Right. And that is
a practical example that I've seen inso many different like people's like postings or
(04:20):
like trends in like social media.And that is because every day on social
media will fed this typical igbody,this typical you know ig model. And
the other thing is you see docsand women, but they have to look
a certain way. So the ideaof they have to have a certain body
(04:42):
type. Right, That's what we'rebeing indoctrinated into, like on a daily
basis. And it reflects in myinteractions. I've had people. I'll say
something or like rant on my WhatsAppstory, and people will ask me like,
who triggered you? Why are youso angry? What is this?
What is that I've had people saythings about my body and the idea of
(05:06):
masculinization, Like I've had people askme questions like if you get any more
muscular than this. Who do youthink is going to marry you or whatnot?
And it's that idea that if Iwas lighter skin then I still had
the same amount of muscle on mybody. People will probably not ask me
those questions. People will be like, oh my gosh, this person is
so fit. But as a darkskined person, and we've seen this with
(05:29):
Sarah and Williams and Venus, therehave often been questions. Even Michelle Obama
and you don't even think of MichelleObama as completely dark skin, but she's
not light skin either. But youhave people questioning their gender. People will
be like, are you sure theseare not men? If the first lady,
if Serenh and Williams, if VenusWilliams are great, like it's going
(05:50):
through this, How am I goingto feel in these situations? How am
I mental process this information right?Another experience I can get you is recently
with the death of Lufuno, theSouth African girl who basically she commits suicide
after a bullying incident. When thathappened and I read the story, I
(06:14):
was really triggered. I cried,I was down. My day was pretty
gray, and I didn't understand whyuntil I sat down and realized that it's
because I can relate. It's becauseI can put myself where she was.
I've been bullied for my skin.I've been called ugly because of my skin
shade over and over again for many, many years. People have been gaslighting
(06:39):
me to this day about being darkscene right, and it makes me.
It made me absolutely devastated, butit made me understand that it's still relevant
for me to talk about ideas ofcolorism, to talk about what women go
through, or even you know,anyone who goes through colorism. I had
(07:00):
to talk about it, right,and that's just an experience that's pretty recent
and that actually hit me very hard. But yeah, it's completely It's difficult.
It's difficult because you know, youknow why, and everyone else around
you is denying why, intentionally andunintentionally. Yet you know why things are
(07:26):
happening the way they are is becauseof your skin shade. People already have
ideas, preconceived ideas of who youare because of your skin shade. And
I cannot tell you it is oneof the most tormenting, one of the
hardest, one of the consistently likedifficult things in my life. Personally,
(07:47):
and I know in so many otherpeople's lives. So I just think,
and I guess that's why I thinkit's super important that we acknowledge what colorism
is and what it does. Okay, I totally hear you. I totally
get you, and I'm sure evenas generally, I think when we now
bring up topics like this, itnow starts to seem like, you know,
(08:09):
women are the only victims, andeven if we are like the victims
most of the time, we haveto acknowledge that the men get some of
the bashion too. Right. Haveyou ever seen colorism like men experience in
colorism? Like? Yeah, Imean you want to take, for example,
we went to slob in high schools. Yeah, there was a lot
(08:30):
of colorisms that went on for darkskin guys. For it was always,
oh, you know, the jokes. There was always things like oh if
I switch up the light, Ican't see you. Yeah, or oh
this is a dug Oh this isthis, this is drek, this is
that. It was always jokes andthey were always off dark jokes. Was
always skinned people, but especially duckskinboys, because the idea is it's a
(08:54):
joke. We all laugh about it. But I've met so many duckskin guys
who actually told me that it usedto affect like as usually called midnight,
and that's that's that really did growup with some of these guys. Yeah,
and obviously, yeah, I obviously, like you said, went to
ZIBB in high school as well,so I can definitely relate to things like
that happening. But we've also seena trend recently of you know, those
(09:16):
jokes about light skin guys where I'veseen one recently where they're like, light
skin guys wake up in the middleof the night, turn around, giggle
and say I'm so pretty. Solike, clearly, no matter which end
of the spectrum you're at, you'regonna get some form of backlash for it.
So that's actually a result of masculinization, which is something that happens with
(09:39):
dark skinned black people where duckskin blackpeople are bought, especially duckskin men are
thought to be more masculine and havealways thought to be more masculine. If
since the slavery theased duckskinned black menare put on heavy jobs. They were
put on heavy jobs because they wereseen as much much much stronger. They
could pretty not be animals about itand all the way into like reconstruction are
(10:05):
we had the lynchings and everything happened. We're dark skinned black men were seen
as people who couldn't control themselves,hence they needed to be controlled. There
was always that idea. But there'sthe idea of masculinization within ducks and men,
and so how it then reflects thatducks and women are masculinized. They
(10:26):
made to be more of men,they made to be like stronger than they
are, They made to be lessfeminine than lighter skinned women. And then
with lighter skinned men, they're meantto be less masculine because the dark shade
is equated to being masculine. Soif you're a woman, if you're darker,
you're more masculine. If you're aman and you're lighter, you're less
(10:48):
masculine. That's why that thing hasbeen like coming through the way it is.
So there's so many like layers towhat colorism is and then what it
also translates to. And that's likeone of the things that I mean,
the jokes are funny, hands down, I'm not even a lie. They're
not gonna lie about that world.Yeah, but that's what that is.
(11:09):
So these are all like I said, it's all residu from racism. That's
what it is. Yeah, okay, So now the one thing that always
comes up, especially when I talkto people about this topic, is yeah,
but you know, it's just mypreference. So is there a line
between colorism and preference? And ifit's there, what is that line?
(11:33):
When can we now say, ah, you are taking it too far.
Now, now you're not just havinga preference. I tryally understand. I
would love to say I love sayingthis, and I love saying this to
people's faces. You cannot have apreference with something that someone cannot change,
especially when it comes to skin.Skin preference is built upon discriminatory behaviors.
(11:56):
So even if you think it's apreference, you need to check yourself and
think about why you have that preference. It's because all your life you've been
fed that one certain shade or certainshade and above is beautiful, or a
certain shaded above is more masculine,or this, and that it's actually just
a result of pretty much indoctrination.Because if you took all of that out,
(12:20):
best believe that, in an idealsituation, you wouldn't even be thinking
about someone's skin shade. But yeah, we've all been sort of even I've
been victims to it where we've beensort of indoctrinated into thinking that it's preference
and it's not. It's just indoctrinationand we need to unlearn it because it's
just bad, that's what it is. And I would love to say to
people, No, it's okay,you have preference, you don't. People
(12:43):
cannot change their skin color, theycannot change their skin shade, and when
they do, people get bashed forit, you know, bleaching and etc.
Etc. YEA, so said,if you guys think you have a
preference, you don't, you needto check yourself. Have moving on swiftly
(13:03):
from that one, because I mean, if you look at it really,
even amongst ourselves as black women,you find that sometimes we're like, oh
no, I want told dark handsome. You know, it's never tall,
light handsome, like Told dark.Hanser is like the you know, but
people are like, oh no,I think it's just my preference because like,
even though I prefer to date darkerskin guys, like I never talked
(13:24):
down on light skin guys. Andyeah, that's fair and fine, But
it's not always about whether you talkdown on them or not. I mean
whether you actually say it or not. There's something you're thinking in your mind
that's kind of on the other endof the spectrum, right, exactly.
That's what it is. It's sosad because I've always fallen trapped to saying
I love you know, I wantme a dark skinned guy. It was
(13:46):
tall. Yeah, yeah, yes, part of it comes from trauma,
there's no question about that. Butalso part of it comes from the lighter
skin villainizing the darker skin black peoplejust in general. So a lot of
(14:07):
it is strong a response and alot of just needs to be dune with
a face of having to deal withaccepting lighter skin men as men. Like,
he's a man, doesn't matter whetherhe's light skinned. Dark skin doesn't
make him any less of a man. Doesn't mean that I don't want to
(14:28):
be any less of a woman becauseI'm a dark skin girl. So it's
it's a learning all these bad habitsthat we've been taught and just figuring out
our way forward in a very healthymanner. Yeah, And of course the
very first thing we always do istalk about these things. First of all,
we need to talk about it.We need to educate people and make
(14:48):
people realize that there is a problem. Right. And then once we know
there is a problem, it's like, Okay, now we know the problem
is there, right, we knowwe've been given a maths equation. How
do we solve it? So,like, other than talking about it,
what do we do to fix thisprejudice that people have? I think listening
is one of the first things.Listening to your darker skinned friends or your
(15:11):
lighter skinned friends, males who've beenthrough this sort of discrimination or fetishization or
masculinization. I'm sorry for organizations,but yeah, oh yeah, Shanny,
but you need to listen. AndI always tell this to people that don't
(15:35):
start making excuses and saying, ohyeah, but you know me, I've
dated so and so and so andso, which means I'm not like this
or I've never been like that.I've accepted you. I've never made fun
of your skin. Yeah, youmaybe have never made fun of my skin,
but you've never been there to defendme when my skin is being made
fun of a whole friend ball game. So it's like one of those things
(15:58):
where lived experiences you cannot not listento someone. You cannot just say,
you cannot refuse to believe someone justbecause maybe you weren't there. So listen
to your friends, right, Learn, I think one of the most important
things. So I'm an art historymajor and on a pre engineering track,
but I learn a lot of likehistory and focus on a lot of research
(16:19):
on history, and I think it'simportant to learn ask yourself why, like
why is this before you even talkto anyone, Yeah, before you even
talked to anyone. Going search up, go and search up colorism, going
seuch up racism, going search upmasculinization, Go and go on YouTube and
say experiences with adults and growth andyou'll see or you know, go search
(16:44):
all of that up and just readit's such your fingertips and you'll be shocked
what you find out that. SoI think that's one of the things that's
important. People need to educate themselveson this, especially black people and especially
African people. Happy African Day everyone. I think it's important to me to
start educating ourselves from our point ofview and not from the European textbook point
(17:06):
of view. Yeah, and becausewe were pretty much just divided over people
who don't even really like this wasthe plan, that was the plan.
We're literally doing what they wanted usto do exactly. And like, the
easiest way I always see is colorism. I mean, famous women a light
(17:27):
skin. There's not even one singlegirl who I can say is representative of
like dark dark skin Closs And wehave dark skinned women in z above with
Yeah, Yet everyone who gets famousor liked or some sort of favorable reaction
from the community always has to beliked. Yeah, yeah, totally,
(17:51):
totally. I totally get you onthat one. And I think it's the
thing of generally when it comes tothings like modeling and you know, music
video. Even when they do auditionsfor music videos, maybe some directors don't
even consciously realize that they're doing it, but they actually just select based on
appearance. And like, fine,okay, that's the aesthetic you're going for.
(18:12):
But if every time you're picking peoplebased on appearance for your music video,
you're choosing light skinned girls, youmean to tell me there's no beautiful
dark skin girls. Is that whatyou're saying? People always tell me,
hey, you know courage when you'retalking about models, they're those super dark
skin Senegalese models. You know,that's inclusion. That's inclusion, and I'm
(18:33):
like, no, that's not inclusion. That is fitialization, that is othering.
There's always this needs within the Westerncontext, especially in modeling of getting
the darkest, leanest women from likeSenegal and around the areas where you get
those shades that are not truly representativeof what dark skinned women in Africa are.
(18:53):
Yes, they're dark skin women.They're probably the darkest shade of you
know, of duckskin women. Butit's a whole thing of fetishization. It's
like, but we have this stuff, see grow, what are you saying?
Like, it's totalization, that's whatit is. It's really bad and
it is not healthy at all becauseyou have to be different, you have
(19:15):
to be something exotic. Yeah,that's it. It's being exotic, that's
the idea. And it's pretty sadthat we're still going through this in the
twenty first century. Honestly, Ithink it's actually worse now because we're actually
becoming like a lot of these issues. I believe these issues were always there,
but the reason why a lot ofpeople now know of these issues is
(19:37):
obviously the prevalence of social media andinformation at our fingertips. I mean probably
the way racism is happening right now. It's always been happening like that,
but you wouldn't know because you didn'thave Instagram to tell you with all the
hashtags, right, But now it'sthere. It's seeming like it's been heightened.
But I really don't believe it's tightened. I believe it's always been like
(19:57):
that. You're just more aware now. And also considering the fact that we're
growing up now. I mean tenyears ago, if even if colorism was
happening around you, you were tooyoung to even understand. I mean,
you didn't even know X squat pluswhy squead? What would be happening there?
So, like you know, Ithink it's the thing of information now
and like so much information coming,how do we deal with it? How
(20:21):
do I, like, for example, how can I be a supportive friend
to you as a darker skinned girl? You know, simple things like that?
And what would you tell someone ifsomeone was to actually ask you,
like, Okay, I'm asking youas your sister, what would I do?
What can I do to make thesituation better for you, to make
you more comfortable? All right?I think one of the things I'll begin
(20:42):
is saying tokenization is not it.Don't tokenize me. I don't like it
when people, especially males, wantto make me the token of the movement
just because you support or you knowone d's some girl courage very you know,
personally, it doesn't help me thatyou're tookenizing me. You're not helping
every other ducks can go. Andof course you can't reach every other ducks
(21:04):
can go. But educate yourself onwhat it is that some of us feel
by being treated as if we're lessthan because we're darker skinned. There's also
the idea of you know, sometimesyour friends just feel downb because of it.
I mean, this can this sometimesreally gets to my emotions. That
(21:25):
why it's not something I can changebecause if I change it, the world
would still like they would still be. That's the thing. Like, so
like, that's the thing. Nomatter whether you're light skin or dark skin,
they're gonna find something else, whetheryou're slim, whether you're thicker with
whatever, they will always find somethingwhere they're like, Okay, so you're
(21:45):
life skin, you've got straight hair, but you're not slim, like okay,
And you know, I think thatI love that you mentioned the whole
thick and then slim thing queen andslim anyways, But the point is I
feel like my personally, I've beenthrough fetishization because I'm of a darker skin
(22:07):
and I'm bigger body, son thickerjust in general. And over the past
couple of years with my weight game, I've seen sort of this game in
factualization where there's this fatization of thick, duck skinned women, and I see
it everywhere, especially we have oneof the nationalisty second give you is Haitian
(22:29):
women. Aitian women are naturally verychocolate, very like dark skin, but
they also are very very well butlike they're like thick, and anyone is
well built, Honestly, don't letanyone tell you you're just because you're big,
you're better than the other. Don'tget it twisted. But the world
right now is all about big womenand especially big ducks, and women are
fetishized so over the like, peoplewill say the most degrading things to me.
(22:55):
I'll post a workout video and peoplewill say the most degrading You'll be
shocked as to what people say inmy face. And it's meant to be
apparently, it's meant to be acompliment, and I'm like, this makes
me feel so violated, and soI always say this to people. There's
this, don't fetishize, don't doit, don't don't call me whatever you
(23:19):
want to call me just because I'mthinking dark skinned. Firstly, go educate
yourself. We need to start.They always are fait. Go educate yourself
and find some manners, learn howto talk to anyone. You wouldn't say
that to your mom. And Iremember there's a question that this one spoken
word artists asked. He said,do you think of your mother's less beautiful
(23:44):
even though she's dark skinned? Thesame way you think of dark skinned girls.
It's less beautiful? Do you?Is that how you see your mom
if she's dark skinned? And thatquestion I think would have hit a lot
of people if they had heard thisthe spoken word poem, because there is
this dehumanization of dark skinned women.It's really bad, and especially now in
(24:07):
Zimbobbian in South African context too.I think Southern Africa, we're still bad.
We're still really bad at it.Yeah, because here this is not
where you get like the I thinkthis is the part of the continent where
you actually get the most variation inskin tone, whereas up there most people
are actually darker skin Here you'll havethe red light skinned girl, you have
(24:29):
the medium tone one, you'll havethe caramel, you'll have the you have
everything, And so now there's moreto compare to, and that abundance of
you know, abundance of comparisons thenjust makes things worse, you know,
Like, I mean, you goto Harvard and like, yeah, you
were smart kids. It was totire school cool. But you go to
(24:52):
Harvard. Now you're surrounded by smarterkids. There's more comparison there, you
know, because they do only takekids that would be able to attain four
point o gpa. So now you'rearound people multiple use basically, and there's
more comparison that's going to happen.You know, what you just said is
comparison. Don't compliment dark skinned womenand compare them at the same time to
(25:18):
light skinned women. Yeah you arepretty a dark skinned girl. No,
I'm pretty, period. Like that'sthe end of it, exactly. Or
don't be saying, oh, whatyou look just like those lighter skinned women.
In fact, you're better. No, I don't, because that's exactly
why I'm in this place in thefirst place is because I don't look like
those lighter skinned women, so don'tbe trying to. And I see where
(25:40):
your heart because I see where theintention is. But how we speak about
it it needs to completely change.We need to to take away the comparison
factor of it. We need tostart to see it as actually individually capable
of being beautiful. And when yourfriend says they sometimes when I say,
(26:00):
I don't want you to post thatpicture because in that picture I don't feel
like I look beautiful because of myskin or whatever, and people like,
no, you look fine, youlook fine. Look I said, I
don't want you to post it,so don't post it. It's not about
whether you think I look fine ornot. It's about how I'm feeling about
that picture, and you're posting itcould potentially make me very, very sad,
(26:21):
and I think people don't. I'vebeen in situations like you look perfectly
fine, you look perfectly fine.Yeah, yeah, I feel like that
exactly because you look great with thislighting and I don't. It's really simple
things like that where people think it'sbeing petty or silly, but it's not.
(26:41):
Because when people are complimenting people underthe picture, I am going to
be able to see the trend ofcompliments that gives me because I'm the darkest
person in the picture. That isdeep, that's really and that's it.
People don't always up, but younever be able to sit in my shoes
if you're not my skin shade.The same way I'll never be able to
sit in someone's sho Choose who's darkerthan me, because if you were put
(27:02):
in comparison, I'm being chosen becauseI'm lighter than they. I have people
around me who are lighter than mewho still want to identify with the same
problems that I go through, ButI'm like, you really aren't going through
the same things that me. Yeah, And sometimes I really let it go
because you can only do so much. If there's someone who's darker than me,
(27:22):
I'm going to have to be ableand ready to understand that they've probably
been through a much more difficult intersectionalitywith their skin shape in terms of if
we're standing next to each other,I'm going to be chosen as the better
breed when it comes to colorism becauseI'm lighter than them, and I should
(27:44):
be like honest enough and selfless enoughto understand that they've just been through worse
and they've just been through their owntype of experience. Like I always say,
no one is more of a victimthan the other, but everyone said
in a completely different intersection according towhere your skin shade is. So you
see that the darkest people, especiallywith men and women in Zimbabwe, the
(28:07):
darkest go through a lot and thenwith people like me who are my shade,
this is what we're told. You'redark, but at least you're not
as dark as that person, oryou could be darker, and it's dark
to the comparison thing exactly, Andit doesn't make anyone in that situation feel
better. Doesn't make me feel better, It doesn't make the person who's darker
than me feel better. But Ialso have to be ready to accept the
(28:30):
fact that I'm the one who's usedas the upper hand when that comparison comes.
If that person is being said,is hearing someone saying to me,
at least you're not as dark asso and so so and so over there,
it's going to go through a differenttype of trauma. I think you,
like you see where I'm going withit. I think it's just having
to understand that, Hey, experienceis a difference. You can empathize,
(28:53):
but each person is on a differentjourney to this. And yeah, like
I was saying, the picture thing, it's there, it's there. There's
times and I don't want to bea part of pictures because I don't feel
great about my skin. People haveto accept that. There's times when I'm
like the lightliness just not great.People need to accept that. And I
(29:18):
think there's another like there's always thisvillainization of people who use filters, and
I'm like, the only way we'rebeing accepted on social media is if we
use filters. That's the only timethat you're accepting me. But the man
must be good, the aphone mustbe connecting, the ring light must be
(29:41):
doing this, everything must be doingtheir dudes, huh, And now you
want me to take off the onething that the world has that least accepted
me with. And people are like, no, you just have to learn,
You just have to learn. It'sa process. The fact that I'm
even putting my face out there,that's one step forward for me, even
(30:02):
if it's behind the filter. Yeah, because when I take this filter off,
all you're going to do is lovewith me and discriminate against me,
so why should I take it off? Yeah, definitely, definitely, that's
deep. Well, unfortunately this chatis so fire because of the people I
know give you the heat, butunfortunately we're running out of time. But
(30:26):
thank you so much for taking yourtime to join us and basically educate us
on this issue that is very,very pertinent right now. And I think
obviously the tip that we can takeaway from you is people just need to
educate themselves. That's one, andtwo, don't compare, and three just
(30:48):
because you have it worse doesn't meanI don't have it bad, you know.
So Yeah, thank you so muchfor joining us, and that's all
from us everybody, until next time. Bye. Mhmm.
What's Up Everybody. Welcome to theChatroom, a podcast dedicated with having interviews
with upcoming stars and influencers of ourgeneration. Please follow us on Facebook and
Instagram at the chatroom dot tcr andon Twitter at the chatroom Underscore TCR first,
so don't forget to become wonder ofour valued Patreon members, which allows
(00:21):
you to unlock exclusive content while alsosupporting this podcast. Enjoy the episode What's
Up Everybody? This is your hosttoday, Martina and I am joined by
the wonderful miscourage Cousinna, who isgoing to be talking to us about colorism.
(00:42):
And this one is not really aninterview per se. It's more like
a talk between two sisters, becausethis is my little sister, so it's
more like a discussion than an interview. So, Courage, how are you
doing. I'm doing well. I'mdoing pretty well. I hope you will
too. I'm wonderful. I'm wonderful. Right, Oh yeah, I guess
let's just get straight into it.But obviously we have to start off with
(01:04):
a definition because maybe people don't actuallyknow what we are talking about today.
So if you could actually just giveus a definition of what colorism is,
so people don't often come across theterm colorism as much as they come across
terms like racism. And there's onereally great definition that I like to use
(01:26):
for colorism that I found, likeon this Instagram page called darkest You.
So colorism is the preferential treatment ofsame race people with lighter skin and the
prejudice treatment of same race people withdark skin. So the idea behind colorism
is lighter skin is better than darkerskin, and that's how that's the power
(01:47):
dynamic of it. So all ofthese things have power dynamics in them,
and colorism is a po dynamic thatbasically enables lighter skin to be seen as
better or preferred or wanted or anythinggood when compared to darker skin, which
is seen as something that is undesirable, ugly, poor, and all these
(02:08):
negative connotations. All right, allright, I get you. So what
if, right, let's say I'ma white girl and I say I don't
like light skin, Like I's notin terms of like dating men, but
just in general, I just don'tlike them. I prefer darker skinned guys.
Would that fall into the lines ofracism or colorism? Like where doesn't
(02:30):
fall? So if probably fall intothe lines of fetishization because and just all
of this all sense from racism.But there has been a trend in history
in general where dark men, darkerskinned men are fetishized by different races because
they are seen as like the closestthing to like African or really, like
(02:53):
really black. So there's that ideaof fetishization when it comes to men,
and then when it comes to women, there's just it's pretty much just colorism.
But we do see different forms offatalization. But all these diem from
just racism. They're all basically aftermad of racism. Okay, awesome,
(03:15):
So now let's get into practical examples. Right As a black girl, I'm
sure you have experienced it obviously whatwe are talking about today, So maybe
just relay for us one occasion ormaybe if you want more than one occasion
where you actually fell victim to colorism. So my experience is being going through
(03:38):
colorism. I can give an example, like very practical example. On my
Instagram. I have pictures where Ilook darker skinned, closer to my shades.
So let's say I have an unfilteredpicture and I have like my natural
hair and my skin unfiltered Whereas ifI post a picture with the filter that
makes me either look lighter or they'ssay the sun is doing the job,
(04:00):
the sun is doing the things right, and I look lighter than I actually
am. The pictures where I looklighter actually have more likes, significantly more
likes than the pictures where I actuallylook darker. Right. And that is
a practical example that I've seen inso many different like people's like postings or
(04:20):
like trends in like social media.And that is because every day on social
media will fed this typical igbody,this typical you know ig model. And
the other thing is you see docsand women, but they have to look
a certain way. So the ideaof they have to have a certain body
(04:42):
type. Right, That's what we'rebeing indoctrinated into, like on a daily
basis. And it reflects in myinteractions. I've had people. I'll say
something or like rant on my WhatsAppstory, and people will ask me like,
who triggered you? Why are youso angry? What is this?
What is that I've had people saythings about my body and the idea of
(05:06):
masculinization, Like I've had people askme questions like if you get any more
muscular than this. Who do youthink is going to marry you or whatnot?
And it's that idea that if Iwas lighter skin then I still had
the same amount of muscle on mybody. People will probably not ask me
those questions. People will be like, oh my gosh, this person is
so fit. But as a darkskined person, and we've seen this with
(05:29):
Sarah and Williams and Venus, therehave often been questions. Even Michelle Obama
and you don't even think of MichelleObama as completely dark skin, but she's
not light skin either. But youhave people questioning their gender. People will
be like, are you sure theseare not men? If the first lady,
if Serenh and Williams, if VenusWilliams are great, like it's going
(05:50):
through this, How am I goingto feel in these situations? How am
I mental process this information right?Another experience I can get you is recently
with the death of Lufuno, theSouth African girl who basically she commits suicide
after a bullying incident. When thathappened and I read the story, I
(06:14):
was really triggered. I cried,I was down. My day was pretty
gray, and I didn't understand whyuntil I sat down and realized that it's
because I can relate. It's becauseI can put myself where she was.
I've been bullied for my skin.I've been called ugly because of my skin
shade over and over again for many, many years. People have been gaslighting
(06:39):
me to this day about being darkscene right, and it makes me.
It made me absolutely devastated, butit made me understand that it's still relevant
for me to talk about ideas ofcolorism, to talk about what women go
through, or even you know,anyone who goes through colorism. I had
(07:00):
to talk about it, right,and that's just an experience that's pretty recent
and that actually hit me very hard. But yeah, it's completely It's difficult.
It's difficult because you know, youknow why, and everyone else around
you is denying why, intentionally andunintentionally. Yet you know why things are
(07:26):
happening the way they are is becauseof your skin shade. People already have
ideas, preconceived ideas of who youare because of your skin shade. And
I cannot tell you it is oneof the most tormenting, one of the
hardest, one of the consistently likedifficult things in my life. Personally,
(07:47):
and I know in so many otherpeople's lives. So I just think,
and I guess that's why I thinkit's super important that we acknowledge what colorism
is and what it does. Okay, I totally hear you. I totally
get you, and I'm sure evenas generally, I think when we now
bring up topics like this, itnow starts to seem like, you know,
(08:09):
women are the only victims, andeven if we are like the victims
most of the time, we haveto acknowledge that the men get some of
the bashion too. Right. Haveyou ever seen colorism like men experience in
colorism? Like? Yeah, Imean you want to take, for example,
we went to slob in high schools. Yeah, there was a lot
(08:30):
of colorisms that went on for darkskin guys. For it was always,
oh, you know, the jokes. There was always things like oh if
I switch up the light, Ican't see you. Yeah, or oh
this is a dug Oh this isthis, this is drek, this is
that. It was always jokes andthey were always off dark jokes. Was
always skinned people, but especially duckskinboys, because the idea is it's a
(08:54):
joke. We all laugh about it. But I've met so many duckskin guys
who actually told me that it usedto affect like as usually called midnight,
and that's that's that really did growup with some of these guys. Yeah,
and obviously, yeah, I obviously, like you said, went to
ZIBB in high school as well,so I can definitely relate to things like
that happening. But we've also seena trend recently of you know, those
(09:16):
jokes about light skin guys where I'veseen one recently where they're like, light
skin guys wake up in the middleof the night, turn around, giggle
and say I'm so pretty. Solike, clearly, no matter which end
of the spectrum you're at, you'regonna get some form of backlash for it.
So that's actually a result of masculinization, which is something that happens with
(09:39):
dark skinned black people where duckskin blackpeople are bought, especially duckskin men are
thought to be more masculine and havealways thought to be more masculine. If
since the slavery theased duckskinned black menare put on heavy jobs. They were
put on heavy jobs because they wereseen as much much much stronger. They
could pretty not be animals about itand all the way into like reconstruction are
(10:05):
we had the lynchings and everything happened. We're dark skinned black men were seen
as people who couldn't control themselves,hence they needed to be controlled. There
was always that idea. But there'sthe idea of masculinization within ducks and men,
and so how it then reflects thatducks and women are masculinized. They
(10:26):
made to be more of men,they made to be like stronger than they
are, They made to be lessfeminine than lighter skinned women. And then
with lighter skinned men, they're meantto be less masculine because the dark shade
is equated to being masculine. Soif you're a woman, if you're darker,
you're more masculine. If you're aman and you're lighter, you're less
(10:48):
masculine. That's why that thing hasbeen like coming through the way it is.
So there's so many like layers towhat colorism is and then what it
also translates to. And that's likeone of the things that I mean,
the jokes are funny, hands down, I'm not even a lie. They're
not gonna lie about that world.Yeah, but that's what that is.
(11:09):
So these are all like I said, it's all residu from racism. That's
what it is. Yeah, okay, So now the one thing that always
comes up, especially when I talkto people about this topic, is yeah,
but you know, it's just mypreference. So is there a line
between colorism and preference? And ifit's there, what is that line?
(11:33):
When can we now say, ah, you are taking it too far.
Now, now you're not just havinga preference. I tryally understand. I
would love to say I love sayingthis, and I love saying this to
people's faces. You cannot have apreference with something that someone cannot change,
especially when it comes to skin.Skin preference is built upon discriminatory behaviors.
(11:56):
So even if you think it's apreference, you need to check yourself and
think about why you have that preference. It's because all your life you've been
fed that one certain shade or certainshade and above is beautiful, or a
certain shaded above is more masculine,or this, and that it's actually just
a result of pretty much indoctrination.Because if you took all of that out,
(12:20):
best believe that, in an idealsituation, you wouldn't even be thinking
about someone's skin shade. But yeah, we've all been sort of even I've
been victims to it where we've beensort of indoctrinated into thinking that it's preference
and it's not. It's just indoctrinationand we need to unlearn it because it's
just bad, that's what it is. And I would love to say to
people, No, it's okay,you have preference, you don't. People
(12:43):
cannot change their skin color, theycannot change their skin shade, and when
they do, people get bashed forit, you know, bleaching and etc.
Etc. YEA, so said,if you guys think you have a
preference, you don't, you needto check yourself. Have moving on swiftly
(13:03):
from that one, because I mean, if you look at it really,
even amongst ourselves as black women,you find that sometimes we're like, oh
no, I want told dark handsome. You know, it's never tall,
light handsome, like Told dark.Hanser is like the you know, but
people are like, oh no,I think it's just my preference because like,
even though I prefer to date darkerskin guys, like I never talked
(13:24):
down on light skin guys. Andyeah, that's fair and fine, But
it's not always about whether you talkdown on them or not. I mean
whether you actually say it or not. There's something you're thinking in your mind
that's kind of on the other endof the spectrum, right, exactly.
That's what it is. It's sosad because I've always fallen trapped to saying
I love you know, I wantme a dark skinned guy. It was
(13:46):
tall. Yeah, yeah, yes, part of it comes from trauma,
there's no question about that. Butalso part of it comes from the lighter
skin villainizing the darker skin black peoplejust in general. So a lot of
(14:07):
it is strong a response and alot of just needs to be dune with
a face of having to deal withaccepting lighter skin men as men. Like,
he's a man, doesn't matter whetherhe's light skinned. Dark skin doesn't
make him any less of a man. Doesn't mean that I don't want to
(14:28):
be any less of a woman becauseI'm a dark skin girl. So it's
it's a learning all these bad habitsthat we've been taught and just figuring out
our way forward in a very healthymanner. Yeah, And of course the
very first thing we always do istalk about these things. First of all,
we need to talk about it.We need to educate people and make
(14:48):
people realize that there is a problem. Right. And then once we know
there is a problem, it's like, Okay, now we know the problem
is there, right, we knowwe've been given a maths equation. How
do we solve it? So,like, other than talking about it,
what do we do to fix thisprejudice that people have? I think listening
is one of the first things.Listening to your darker skinned friends or your
(15:11):
lighter skinned friends, males who've beenthrough this sort of discrimination or fetishization or
masculinization. I'm sorry for organizations,but yeah, oh yeah, Shanny,
but you need to listen. AndI always tell this to people that don't
(15:35):
start making excuses and saying, ohyeah, but you know me, I've
dated so and so and so andso, which means I'm not like this
or I've never been like that.I've accepted you. I've never made fun
of your skin. Yeah, youmaybe have never made fun of my skin,
but you've never been there to defendme when my skin is being made
fun of a whole friend ball game. So it's like one of those things
(15:58):
where lived experiences you cannot not listento someone. You cannot just say,
you cannot refuse to believe someone justbecause maybe you weren't there. So listen
to your friends, right, Learn, I think one of the most important
things. So I'm an art historymajor and on a pre engineering track,
but I learn a lot of likehistory and focus on a lot of research
(16:19):
on history, and I think it'simportant to learn ask yourself why, like
why is this before you even talkto anyone, Yeah, before you even
talked to anyone. Going search up, go and search up colorism, going
seuch up racism, going search upmasculinization, Go and go on YouTube and
say experiences with adults and growth andyou'll see or you know, go search
(16:44):
all of that up and just readit's such your fingertips and you'll be shocked
what you find out that. SoI think that's one of the things that's
important. People need to educate themselveson this, especially black people and especially
African people. Happy African Day everyone. I think it's important to me to
start educating ourselves from our point ofview and not from the European textbook point
(17:06):
of view. Yeah, and becausewe were pretty much just divided over people
who don't even really like this wasthe plan, that was the plan.
We're literally doing what they wanted usto do exactly. And like, the
easiest way I always see is colorism. I mean, famous women a light
(17:27):
skin. There's not even one singlegirl who I can say is representative of
like dark dark skin Closs And wehave dark skinned women in z above with
Yeah, Yet everyone who gets famousor liked or some sort of favorable reaction
from the community always has to beliked. Yeah, yeah, totally,
(17:51):
totally. I totally get you onthat one. And I think it's the
thing of generally when it comes tothings like modeling and you know, music
video. Even when they do auditionsfor music videos, maybe some directors don't
even consciously realize that they're doing it, but they actually just select based on
appearance. And like, fine,okay, that's the aesthetic you're going for.
(18:12):
But if every time you're picking peoplebased on appearance for your music video,
you're choosing light skinned girls, youmean to tell me there's no beautiful
dark skin girls. Is that whatyou're saying? People always tell me,
hey, you know courage when you'retalking about models, they're those super dark
skin Senegalese models. You know,that's inclusion. That's inclusion, and I'm
(18:33):
like, no, that's not inclusion. That is fitialization, that is othering.
There's always this needs within the Westerncontext, especially in modeling of getting
the darkest, leanest women from likeSenegal and around the areas where you get
those shades that are not truly representativeof what dark skinned women in Africa are.
(18:53):
Yes, they're dark skin women.They're probably the darkest shade of you
know, of duckskin women. Butit's a whole thing of fetishization. It's
like, but we have this stuff, see grow, what are you saying?
Like, it's totalization, that's whatit is. It's really bad and
it is not healthy at all becauseyou have to be different, you have
(19:15):
to be something exotic. Yeah,that's it. It's being exotic, that's
the idea. And it's pretty sadthat we're still going through this in the
twenty first century. Honestly, Ithink it's actually worse now because we're actually
becoming like a lot of these issues. I believe these issues were always there,
but the reason why a lot ofpeople now know of these issues is
(19:37):
obviously the prevalence of social media andinformation at our fingertips. I mean probably
the way racism is happening right now. It's always been happening like that,
but you wouldn't know because you didn'thave Instagram to tell you with all the
hashtags, right, But now it'sthere. It's seeming like it's been heightened.
But I really don't believe it's tightened. I believe it's always been like
(19:57):
that. You're just more aware now. And also considering the fact that we're
growing up now. I mean tenyears ago, if even if colorism was
happening around you, you were tooyoung to even understand. I mean,
you didn't even know X squat pluswhy squead? What would be happening there?
So, like you know, Ithink it's the thing of information now
and like so much information coming,how do we deal with it? How
(20:21):
do I, like, for example, how can I be a supportive friend
to you as a darker skinned girl? You know, simple things like that?
And what would you tell someone ifsomeone was to actually ask you,
like, Okay, I'm asking youas your sister, what would I do?
What can I do to make thesituation better for you, to make
you more comfortable? All right?I think one of the things I'll begin
(20:42):
is saying tokenization is not it.Don't tokenize me. I don't like it
when people, especially males, wantto make me the token of the movement
just because you support or you knowone d's some girl courage very you know,
personally, it doesn't help me thatyou're tookenizing me. You're not helping
every other ducks can go. Andof course you can't reach every other ducks
(21:04):
can go. But educate yourself onwhat it is that some of us feel
by being treated as if we're lessthan because we're darker skinned. There's also
the idea of you know, sometimesyour friends just feel downb because of it.
I mean, this can this sometimesreally gets to my emotions. That
(21:25):
why it's not something I can changebecause if I change it, the world
would still like they would still be. That's the thing. Like, so
like, that's the thing. Nomatter whether you're light skin or dark skin,
they're gonna find something else, whetheryou're slim, whether you're thicker with
whatever, they will always find somethingwhere they're like, Okay, so you're
(21:45):
life skin, you've got straight hair, but you're not slim, like okay,
And you know, I think thatI love that you mentioned the whole
thick and then slim thing queen andslim anyways, But the point is I
feel like my personally, I've beenthrough fetishization because I'm of a darker skin
(22:07):
and I'm bigger body, son thickerjust in general. And over the past
couple of years with my weight game, I've seen sort of this game in
factualization where there's this fatization of thick, duck skinned women, and I see
it everywhere, especially we have oneof the nationalisty second give you is Haitian
(22:29):
women. Aitian women are naturally verychocolate, very like dark skin, but
they also are very very well butlike they're like thick, and anyone is
well built, Honestly, don't letanyone tell you you're just because you're big,
you're better than the other. Don'tget it twisted. But the world
right now is all about big womenand especially big ducks, and women are
fetishized so over the like, peoplewill say the most degrading things to me.
(22:55):
I'll post a workout video and peoplewill say the most degrading You'll be
shocked as to what people say inmy face. And it's meant to be
apparently, it's meant to be acompliment, and I'm like, this makes
me feel so violated, and soI always say this to people. There's
this, don't fetishize, don't doit, don't don't call me whatever you
(23:19):
want to call me just because I'mthinking dark skinned. Firstly, go educate
yourself. We need to start.They always are fait. Go educate yourself
and find some manners, learn howto talk to anyone. You wouldn't say
that to your mom. And Iremember there's a question that this one spoken
word artists asked. He said,do you think of your mother's less beautiful
(23:44):
even though she's dark skinned? Thesame way you think of dark skinned girls.
It's less beautiful? Do you?Is that how you see your mom
if she's dark skinned? And thatquestion I think would have hit a lot
of people if they had heard thisthe spoken word poem, because there is
this dehumanization of dark skinned women.It's really bad, and especially now in
(24:07):
Zimbobbian in South African context too.I think Southern Africa, we're still bad.
We're still really bad at it.Yeah, because here this is not
where you get like the I thinkthis is the part of the continent where
you actually get the most variation inskin tone, whereas up there most people
are actually darker skin Here you'll havethe red light skinned girl, you have
(24:29):
the medium tone one, you'll havethe caramel, you'll have the you have
everything, And so now there's moreto compare to, and that abundance of
you know, abundance of comparisons thenjust makes things worse, you know,
Like, I mean, you goto Harvard and like, yeah, you
were smart kids. It was totire school cool. But you go to
(24:52):
Harvard. Now you're surrounded by smarterkids. There's more comparison there, you
know, because they do only takekids that would be able to attain four
point o gpa. So now you'rearound people multiple use basically, and there's
more comparison that's going to happen.You know, what you just said is
comparison. Don't compliment dark skinned womenand compare them at the same time to
(25:18):
light skinned women. Yeah you arepretty a dark skinned girl. No,
I'm pretty, period. Like that'sthe end of it, exactly. Or
don't be saying, oh, whatyou look just like those lighter skinned women.
In fact, you're better. No, I don't, because that's exactly
why I'm in this place in thefirst place is because I don't look like
those lighter skinned women, so don'tbe trying to. And I see where
(25:40):
your heart because I see where theintention is. But how we speak about
it it needs to completely change.We need to to take away the comparison
factor of it. We need tostart to see it as actually individually capable
of being beautiful. And when yourfriend says they sometimes when I say,
(26:00):
I don't want you to post thatpicture because in that picture I don't feel
like I look beautiful because of myskin or whatever, and people like,
no, you look fine, youlook fine. Look I said, I
don't want you to post it,so don't post it. It's not about
whether you think I look fine ornot. It's about how I'm feeling about
that picture, and you're posting itcould potentially make me very, very sad,
(26:21):
and I think people don't. I'vebeen in situations like you look perfectly
fine, you look perfectly fine.Yeah, yeah, I feel like that
exactly because you look great with thislighting and I don't. It's really simple
things like that where people think it'sbeing petty or silly, but it's not.
(26:41):
Because when people are complimenting people underthe picture, I am going to
be able to see the trend ofcompliments that gives me because I'm the darkest
person in the picture. That isdeep, that's really and that's it.
People don't always up, but younever be able to sit in my shoes
if you're not my skin shade.The same way I'll never be able to
sit in someone's sho Choose who's darkerthan me, because if you were put
(27:02):
in comparison, I'm being chosen becauseI'm lighter than they. I have people
around me who are lighter than mewho still want to identify with the same
problems that I go through, ButI'm like, you really aren't going through
the same things that me. Yeah, And sometimes I really let it go
because you can only do so much. If there's someone who's darker than me,
(27:22):
I'm going to have to be ableand ready to understand that they've probably
been through a much more difficult intersectionalitywith their skin shape in terms of if
we're standing next to each other,I'm going to be chosen as the better
breed when it comes to colorism becauseI'm lighter than them, and I should
(27:44):
be like honest enough and selfless enoughto understand that they've just been through worse
and they've just been through their owntype of experience. Like I always say,
no one is more of a victimthan the other, but everyone said
in a completely different intersection according towhere your skin shade is. So you
see that the darkest people, especiallywith men and women in Zimbabwe, the
(28:07):
darkest go through a lot and thenwith people like me who are my shade,
this is what we're told. You'redark, but at least you're not
as dark as that person, oryou could be darker, and it's dark
to the comparison thing exactly, Andit doesn't make anyone in that situation feel
better. Doesn't make me feel better, It doesn't make the person who's darker
than me feel better. But Ialso have to be ready to accept the
(28:30):
fact that I'm the one who's usedas the upper hand when that comparison comes.
If that person is being said,is hearing someone saying to me,
at least you're not as dark asso and so so and so over there,
it's going to go through a differenttype of trauma. I think you,
like you see where I'm going withit. I think it's just having
to understand that, Hey, experienceis a difference. You can empathize,
(28:53):
but each person is on a differentjourney to this. And yeah, like
I was saying, the picture thing, it's there, it's there. There's
times and I don't want to bea part of pictures because I don't feel
great about my skin. People haveto accept that. There's times when I'm
like the lightliness just not great.People need to accept that. And I
(29:18):
think there's another like there's always thisvillainization of people who use filters, and
I'm like, the only way we'rebeing accepted on social media is if we
use filters. That's the only timethat you're accepting me. But the man
must be good, the aphone mustbe connecting, the ring light must be
(29:41):
doing this, everything must be doingtheir dudes, huh, And now you
want me to take off the onething that the world has that least accepted
me with. And people are like, no, you just have to learn,
You just have to learn. It'sa process. The fact that I'm
even putting my face out there,that's one step forward for me, even
(30:02):
if it's behind the filter. Yeah, because when I take this filter off,
all you're going to do is lovewith me and discriminate against me,
so why should I take it off? Yeah, definitely, definitely, that's
deep. Well, unfortunately this chatis so fire because of the people I
know give you the heat, butunfortunately we're running out of time. But
(30:26):
thank you so much for taking yourtime to join us and basically educate us
on this issue that is very,very pertinent right now. And I think
obviously the tip that we can takeaway from you is people just need to
educate themselves. That's one, andtwo, don't compare, and three just
(30:48):
because you have it worse doesn't meanI don't have it bad, you know.
So Yeah, thank you so muchfor joining us, and that's all
from us everybody, until next time. Bye. Mhmm.
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