July 27, 2025 • 44 mins
Reconstruction
After you've deconstructed and set aside the beliefs that you've grown past, what's next? How do you go about rebuilding and reconstructing yourself? Sarah and Corinne explore the idea that leaving religion doesn't mean leaving yourself, though it may feel that way sometimes. They discuss the concept of benevolent patriarchy, which appears kind on its surface but actually serves as another way to negate a woman's agency over herself. Sarah explains more about IFS (Internal Family Systems) Therapy and the questions that are explored therein, specifically with regard to deconstruction and reconstruction.
Corinne discusses her surprise during a visit to an indie bookstore when she opened a book on whales and read, "Show me the difference between a cathedral and physics." She recalls her time at Chapel of the Holy Cross in Sedona and its massive painting above the votive candles: a portrait of a woman, draped in reds, purples, and blues and staring evocatively at the parishioners. Her mind wanders to other examples of "cathedrals" she's encountered in both the natural and human-made worlds.
Listen in as Sarah and Corinne discuss what it looks like to walk away from religion...and into an authentic life of spirituality and the sacred.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
After you've deconstructed and set aside the beliefs that you've grown past, what's next? How do you go about rebuilding and reconstructing yourself? Sarah and Corinne explore the idea that leaving religion doesn't mean leaving yourself, though it may feel that way sometimes. They discuss the concept of benevolent patriarchy, which appears kind on its surface but actually serves as another way to negate a woman's agency over herself. Sarah explains more about IFS (Internal Family Systems) Therapy and the questions that are explored therein, specifically with regard to deconstruction and reconstruction.
Corinne discusses her surprise during a visit to an indie bookstore when she opened a book on whales and read, "Show me the difference between a cathedral and physics." She recalls her time at Chapel of the Holy Cross in Sedona and its massive painting above the votive candles: a portrait of a woman, draped in reds, purples, and blues and staring evocatively at the parishioners. Her mind wanders to other examples of "cathedrals" she's encountered in both the natural and human-made worlds.
Listen in as Sarah and Corinne discuss what it looks like to walk away from religion...and into an authentic life of spirituality and the sacred.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Sarah (00:02):
For all the match strikers.
>> Corinne (00:05):
This is spiritual pyro.
>> Sarah (00:26):
Okay. All right, well, hi there.
>> Corinne (00:29):
Hi.
>> Sarah (00:30):
So I can't stop thinking about what we were talking about last
episode about agency, what you
were saying about specifically about
safety. Like I just feel like we
could pull that thread and talk about that some more today
because the wheels have been spinning and I'm
like that idea that we can't,
(00:52):
we can't be safe for someone else until we've
learned to be safe for ourselves.
That is so profound. I think that it has such
far reaching implications that we
can't skip that step. So yeah, I would love
to explore that a little bit more.
>> Corinne (01:09):
Okay, well, I mean, honestly, can we just jump right in on that? Because
what that makes me think of, and this is not in our
notes. The, this is like what that makes me think of
is benevolent patriarchy.
So let's just go there if you don't mind.
>> Sarah (01:25):
Go there, go there because. Okay.
>> Corinne (01:28):
Because safety and agency, right. So if we are taught
that we can't trust ourselves, benevolent patriarchy says, let me
take care of you, let me protect
you. You need God. You need God to protect
you. You need a pastor to protect you. You need a
husband to protect you. You need a father to protect it. You need
somebody else outside of yourself
(01:48):
to be safe. Right. And benevolent
patriarchy is like, let me do that for you because
I love you so much. Right. And we get so
conditioned to look to that we're
raised up. We look to our dad, we look to our
uncles, our older brothers, we look to our boyfriends
and then a husband, we look to a pastor, we look to God.
We're told that that is how we stay
(02:10):
safe. So really from a young age we are
conditioned to think that we're not safe, safe unless
someone outside of ourselves provides us with some
protection. So this idea
that we could be safe in ourselves, I mean
it really is part of what upsets the system.
What disrupts the system is us
(02:32):
having the audacity to become
safe at home in ourselves. Right,
Okay. I mean, I mean that
is that.
>> Sarah (02:42):
Yeah, that's fire. That's fire.
>> Corinne (02:45):
That's what I'm thinking.
>> Sarah (02:46):
Yeah. Oh, that's what you're thinking? Just a casual thought for you.
Yeah.
>> Corinne (02:51):
Like based on what you just said, that was what just immediately
snapped into my mind. Yeah.
>> Sarah (02:55):
I ah, mean I love it because it's so true. And I mean that's a.
The concept of benevolent patriarchy is one we have
explored before in us, like in our Conversations and our lives,
obviously we bump up against it as women all
the time. We're raising daughters, we're raising sons, we're
navigating how to. How to,
I don't know, not protect them, but like, show them a different
(03:16):
way. And. And that
concept was so prevalent
in my experiences with religion,
Christianity and church that I didn't
see the difference. Same, same.
Yeah, it's like, that it's so
interwoven in the experiences that I've had. And that's not,
again, blanket here. No, not all men,
(03:39):
not all churches, of course, not all, whatever.
Right. But like, that has. I have encountered it
at such levels that I could not tell you
the. What I couldn't separate out what was
religion here, what was the benevolent patriarchy
and that messaging that you
can't make it on your own. You're not safe on your own. You
can't trust yourself, you can't trust your thoughts, you
(04:01):
can't. You're too emotional, you are
unpredictable. You don't have what it takes. All these
things that it's this underlying message, not
usually so blatant as that.
>> Corinne (04:12):
Right.
>> Sarah (04:12):
It's Lace. The idea of benevolent is like,
it's so kind and it's so
loving, generous, and it's. Yes,
exactly. So when you're taught
that that is what love feels like and that's what love looks like,
that is some pretty messed up conditioning. Right? Like the
amount of. Even in our last conversation, our last
(04:33):
episode, talking about phantom
faith and the experience of grief after deconstruction,
I mean, you're also
untangling all those
messages and webs because all of that was tied up
in the same big things, right?
>> Corinne (04:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, as we
are moving into this conversation of, okay, what then?
Like, what comes next after you have that liminal space,
space in between setting down everything you thought you
knew for sure and moving forward,
you know, how do we do that? Well, I
mean, it really is that process of coming
(05:10):
home to ourselves, and that is so
revolutionary for women in, on such
a cellular level to begin to feel
safe in our own bodies, which, quite frankly, at a lot of
time we still don't. But that sense of
self being safe, it really
does change everything and not all at
once. I think this really, truly is part
(05:33):
of the concept of unraveling because it is
slow and it is thread by thread. And I think in our
last episode, Sarah, you said sometimes
deconstruction is about faith, but it's also about a lot of other things
too. People can be in these deconstructive processes
about things that aren't related necessarily specifically
to religion. And I think that the idea of benevolent
(05:53):
patriarchy, no matter what kind of family
we come from or what kind of relationships
we've been in, there is this idea that that is
for our own good and we need to
submit to it for our own good.
and I don't know, I can't help but wonder if the idea of
reconstruction of what,
(06:14):
what now, what after all of this, what now?
How do we move forward is this
process of
what really is for our own good? And
how do we start acting on behalf of
ourselves and seeing our,
our place and our movement in the world in a way
(06:34):
that is more accurate
than that when, when we really
truly can come home to ourselves, return to ourselves.
And that's a bit of skies right there, right? You know,
we go there in sky is that process of returning to ourselves.
(07:22):
You had said something, you had said something recently about
how, leaving
religion didn't mean leaving yourself. And
I wanna, I wanna bring us back to that because I think this is
a good time. I don't know, I just wanna, I, I just
like kind of setting you up to riff on something that you've said before.
>> Sarah (07:42):
So, like, wind her up and let her go.
>> Corinne (07:43):
Yeah, why don't, why don't you just go on that for a second?
Yeah.
>> Sarah (07:47):
Well, okay, so. Because
what I'm thinking as you were talking and I think this is all very
connected, is in the past we talked about parts work and
ifs and internal family systems and this idea that there are
parts of us that need updating as we
go through healing and as we work toward this
returning to our self concept. I,
(08:07):
I think in that self safety that we're
working on building within ourselves first
is that sense of like, are we actually safe enough for
the parts of us who need updating to
return too? Like, are we, have we done
the work of
deconstructing these pieces to the point where now
(08:28):
as we're choosing to reconstruct, we are actually
embodying a safe enough space for that? Like,
we don't just one day return to ourselves.
Right. There's a reason that we become so fractured. There's a
reason that we become disconnected from ourself
in all these ways and it takes time. I think one of the
most important pieces to hold in this is
(08:48):
trust. Right? We have to, in a lot of ways,
earn back our own trust as we're
considering stepping into a future that looks
different, that we're Choosing and that we're
actively engaging with from a very self led
place to do that we have to be safe enough for
ourselves. And that is, I think that takes time and that
(09:10):
takes trust, takes honesty, so many things.
but yeah, this, the returning to self peace.
I mean it's that ah, we always say, you know, you gotta go see about a
girl. It's like we, there's
this element of like, yeah, we have to, we have to, we're
doing this work so that we can be safe homes for
ourselves. And we do a lot of that, I think
(09:32):
interdependently. And that's really beautiful too. It's
as much as the work is ours to do,
it's also beautifully communal and
supportive. I mean you and I have found that over the years time and
again that we are responsible for our own work.
But we have that with you support
from each other and from others that really is so
(09:53):
bolstering and necessary and leads to
whatever it is that we're reconstructing and building
toward becomes naturally bigger
than us. Which I think is so
beautiful. Which makes me think
of. I am going to butcher the quote. So I'm just going
to tell you the words and you, you tell me the quote. But it's the one
(10:14):
that you said to me the other day about cathedrals and
physics.
>> Corinne (10:17):
Oh yeah, yeah.
>> Sarah (10:19):
Do you know what I'm talking about? Okay. I mean that feels
connected.
>> Corinne (10:24):
Okay, okay, okay. Well yeah, I
mean, because you know, I was just in, you know, when I was
out of town, recently and went to a little bookstore and got
myself a book, about whales. Of course.
>> Sarah (10:35):
Of course you did. Of course I did.
>> Corinne (10:38):
Supporting local bookstores. but anyway, I just,
even just opened up the, you know, the very beginning
of it. And there was a line,
that I believe was in the prologue that said, show
me the difference between a cathedral and
physics. And that was
such a. Yes, like,
(10:58):
that was such a, like a gasp
phrase for me to read because immediately
I was like, show me the difference between
cathedrals and a slot canyon.
Show me the difference between cathedrals and
staring into the eye of a humpback whale
calf underwater. Like, show me the
difference between cathedrals and the Milky
(11:21):
Way. Like, show me
there is no difference in my mind. And I think that that is something that
came from my
unraveling process and it makes me think about,
being soon after we came back from Thailand,
I was in Sedona and for
the first time walked into the
chapel, of the Holy Cross, which is very well known it's this
(11:44):
gorgeous little chapel that's on the side of the red
rock. And it is really,
really simple and beautiful inside and reminded me
so much of the, The structure of it.
Reminded me so much of the church that I grew up in, the
Episcopal church. it's like a frame. And anyway, it's
just very sweet. But I will never forget
there was this massive painting above
(12:06):
the candle prayer grotto where all the red
votive candles were lined up. And, you know,
everyone would come in and light a candle and have their
moment. And there was this giant
portrait of a woman
above the candles, and she
was draped in this red. I mean, the
(12:27):
colors were very, like, red and purple and blues. And
she had this very,
evocative stare.
it was a little unnerving. and I remember thinking, wow,
that is a bold choice to put as
the main piece of art in your
tiny little chapel, you know, so much so
(12:47):
I was so kind of struck by it that I went to
the little gift shop and bought a greeting card so that I could have it and
keep it and refer to it. But it was
this moment of the unexpected.
And I remember feeling like it was
so much more likely that that was,
ah, Mary, the Magdalene, as opposed to, like a Mother
(13:09):
Mary. It was very much like this
powerful.
This powerful sense.
so anyway, I was thinking, though, you know, and then you look out the
windows and it's the red rocks, and it's
this really mystical, beautiful space
in Sedona. And
(13:30):
the nerve of this little chapel to put this
woman at the forefront. This. This art, this piece
of art. It just felt so bold. It felt so.
Like it matched the boldness of the blue
sky against the orange and red rusted rocks. And
it was just this really powerful visual.
And what's the difference? I kept thinking to myself, what
(13:50):
is the difference of being inside in this
little, beautiful little chapel and being outside
under these cathedral skies? So when I read
that phrase in that book, I was like, yes, like,
everything is a cathedral. You know, a hospital
room can be a cathedral,
right? Like, laying out under
(14:12):
the stars can be a cathedral. Like, it's
all a cathedral. So
that was really, I'm like, oh, I can't wait to get into this book. If that's how
it starts, I'm in.
>> Sarah (14:22):
Oh, yeah. That's incredible. I'm probably gonna need to borrow that
from you when you're done.
>> Corinne (14:25):
Yeah, it'll be one we pass around.
Yeah.
>> Sarah (14:29):
It's so beautiful. To me, that
speaks to the idea of
walking away from religion and
the journey of reclaiming your
spirituality. That walking
away from a religion doesn't mean that you're walking away from
that spiritual connection to something bigger than yourself
(14:49):
or the understanding that everything can be a
cathedral, and by that, everything
can. Can be sacred. Any beautiful sacred
moment can happen anywhere. And
that's really speaking to, I think, this idea of being
connected to something bigger or
more or whatever, all different language and words
(15:10):
for it. Right. But just generally speaking, an idea
that the church doesn't have the corner market on
what's sacred. The church doesn't have the corner market on
spirituality. And that. That when I think about that
personally, I'm like, yeah, the spirituality element to
me was true when I was 5,
and it was true all through my experience of church,
(15:30):
and it's still true now. Right. Like,
I didn't have to leave that behind
when I outgrew my religion. I didn't have
to walk away from it as almost
like a sacrifice. I guess I can't be spiritual
if I'm not affiliated with a religion
anymore. But, yeah, that's like the
(15:51):
myth. That's the lie. The reality is, is for you to
read a line like that, for you to stand in that. In that
chapel in Sedona and look m at the red
rocks and look at the pews and see that everything
is. Everything is sacred. Everything is
beautiful. I think those are really profound
moments where you go, yeah, like,
I get to stay intact. There's no
(16:13):
sacrificing of who we are
when we go through a process like deconstruction.
And as we're finding ourselves in that,
like, what's next, right. Coming out of the phantom faith,
the in between, as we're back to that
idea in skies of returning, returning to
ourselves after everything's fallen
(16:34):
apart and finding who we are again. And
those moments, that
I've had where I can at least have
enough awareness when they're happening to go like,
almost like one foot in the moment, one foot out, observing,
and to recognize, like, ooh, okay, this
is a significant moment. Like, something that's happening right now is
(16:54):
shifting something, or when we're talking about returning,
it's like, there she is. Like, that's
true. That's true.
>> Corinne (17:01):
Right?
>> Sarah (17:02):
That's still true, and that's still mine. And I get to
keep that. And
I just. I think that's so profound. it makes me think
about the. When you said
cathedral, when you. When you shared that quote with me, I thought was
thinking about redwood trees and how
they're Is it like a group of
(17:22):
redwood trees is called a cathedral?
I believe that that's true. Is it like.
Yeah, the interconnection. Okay, I want to do a Google, but I'm going to
do it right now, I swear.
>> Corinne (17:33):
Oh, I love that. Okay.
>> Sarah (17:35):
Yeah, I feel like that's true.
We need a fact checker. We need a fact checker. But,
for the sake of the moment, I'm, like,
99% sure that's true.
>> Corinne (17:46):
You guys have a fact checker.
>> Sarah (17:51):
What do you got for us?
>> Rebeca (17:52):
Yeah, it turns out, yes, a group of redwood trees, especially
if they form, are growing in a circle, like around the
base of a larger parent tree, is often
called a cathedral.
>> Sarah (18:02):
Cathedral. Isn't that gorgeous?
>> Corinne (18:04):
Oh, my gosh.
>> Sarah (18:06):
Thank you.
>> Corinne (18:06):
Are you kidding me? Okay,
so perfect, right?
>> Sarah (18:11):
And so there you are. And again, even just that,
like,
>> Rebeca (18:15):
especially if they're growing in a circle.
>> Sarah (18:17):
Are you kidding me? The gorgeousness of that, even the
symbolism of that, and the idea that, like,
underneath, the ground, there's all these
interconnected roots that, you know, feed
healing to the ones that are
hurting and communicate in all these languages.
And I, for me, I go, just because
(18:38):
we don't understand the language doesn't mean they don't have
one. Right? Like, the arrogance to think that
there's not all kinds of communication happening just
because we, don't speak it, we're not fluent
in cathedral redwoods, doesn't mean that
they're not communicating. And again, back to that idea
of everything being spiritual, of. Of anything being able
to be a cathedral.
(19:01):
Part of, I think, returning is recognizing our
place, like, in the circle of things and
the bigness of things. It's that moment,
like, when you're looking up at the sky and you can see
the stars clearly, and you have that moment of, like, you almost feel like you're
floating. You have a sense of how
small, and yet it's, like,
(19:21):
significant and insignificant we are all at once.
>> Corinne (19:26):
Oh, it's that overview effect that, like,
astronauts talk about right when they. When they leave,
I don't know, atmosphere. Oh, okay. So my
brother, obviously my brother Jared. Hi, Jared, was
teaching me about this years ago. And so then I
just noticed it in so many different spaces
where the overview effect is what someone who has left
orbit, or left the atmosphere and is in orbit.
(19:48):
When you look back, back at the Earth, when you look back at
the planet, everyone
has this sense of the
smallness of our lives, the
insignificance, and yet the
grandeur and the Beauty and the tremendously
deep significance of it all. And just how small we
all are, how interconnected we all are.
(20:11):
so it's, it's that micro macro at the same time. But yeah, so
from a, from a, cosmic
perspective, right, that's. That term is the overview effect.
And apparently it's really universal for anybody who's left the
earth's atmosphere, which I just think is really
incredible to have that kind of
perspective and that it seems to be so consistent.
(20:32):
M.
(20:59):
When you talk about not leaving ourselves and not
losing ourselves, returning to ourselves, I feel
like the
overwhelming sentiment is that we become
more deeply spiritual,
we become more of ourselves. We become m.
more deeply connected to who we've always been. So that,
that little five year old
(21:20):
spirituality, it's a connection all
the way back to who we have always been.
So whether it is searching, you know, whatever it is that we're
searching for, for me, what's true about the world, like,
I'm doing that all the more I'm just not
bound by doctrine anymore, you know,
all the more I'm wondering what's true about the world.
(21:42):
It's just bigger and broader and more
expansive and more inclusive than
I was once told. And so I
feel like that sense of belonging to ourselves,
it deepens and increases
the more honest we allow ourselves
to be. So
(22:04):
not being bound by rules or,
you know, a statement of faith like
that is the most freeing thing to be able
to actually wonder what might be true about the world
and what's true about love, what's
true about our humanity, what's true
about dignity, what's true about
(22:25):
how we learn and how we heal. And, those
questions have only deepened.
And yet I feel zero
responsibility to like, determine
some system of belief now. So, like, the
idea of reconstruction is for some people. Okay,
what do you believe in?
(22:45):
that's not the interesting question to me.
M. The more interesting question is
what's. What's true about the world
and how people love each other? What's true
about the world in our
humanity, our shared humanity? What. Like, those are.
Those questions are more interesting than what do you think about the
(23:06):
Atonement? Or what do you think about. You
know? I mean, I have thoughts about a lot of those things. Right.
Like, I feel like I got a, I got a.
A master's by proxy when Eric was going through his
apologetics program at Biola all those years ago. You know, I
listened to every cd. I. I, you
know, read so many of the books, and I think we even. The four
(23:26):
of us went to a lecture together, didn't we?
>> Sarah (23:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's so true. I remember that.
>> Corinne (23:31):
Do you remember that? That was like a double date.
>> Sarah (23:34):
That was a double date to listen to a
lecture on theology. Yeah. Right.
>> Corinne (23:39):
Yeah.
Taking yourself too seriously.
>> Sarah (23:46):
We were trying so hard to be so good.
Oh.
>> Corinne (23:50):
But, I mean, but. But that was. That was the system. That was the
community. Right. That's what you did. yeah. That is really funny.
But. But I think, like, I have opinions and I have thoughts
about all those things and. And how. But that's no
longer the conversation I'm interested in having.
Like, I no longer feel any responsibility to
decide anything. I no
(24:10):
longer feel bound to
claim a certain,
label or identity or anything like that.
I'm much more interested in
how we're all trying to be human with each other.
>> Sarah (24:26):
M. And that. Would you say that's a direct
result of. Of what you've gone through with deconstruction?
Like, is that.
>> Corinne (24:32):
Ah.
>> Sarah (24:33):
Because you have also always been
searching for what's the
most true and the most honest. Like
that. That element of, like, knowledge and wanting to
be aligned, with some. With the most true thing.
Right. That piece.
>> Corinne (24:51):
It's just that true no longer has a capital letter.
>> Sarah (24:53):
I think that's where I was going is like. I feel like
what's shifted isn't necessarily in the same vein of what we're talking
about. It's not necessarily that you let, like, left it behind
or let it go. It's more that
what it means. It's almost like the definition of it has
shifted or grown, like, with you. Like, you're
still so captivated by the information and you want to
(25:15):
know these things. But it's like, what that means is different
than it used to, which I just think is actually really beautiful.
That, to me, is such a beautiful part of the deconstruction process
that you went through. Like, you're still chasing
the information because you want to know and because it's beautiful
and interesting to you. But it's not
necessarily deciding your,
salvation anymore. No.
>> Corinne (25:37):
No. Yeah. I mean, I think
my. My thoughts about almost
everything have changed and
I. That's so exciting to me because
it's like, well, they. They could keep changing.
I don't know. I could be wrong about something. I don't know.
It just doesn't depend on me. Like, nothing that
(25:58):
is true depends on me to believe in it in order for it to
be true. And that is such a Relief that
it becomes fun to think about
what it means to be human, what it is to be living in this
world, in this unit. It's all just possibility.
>> Sarah (26:14):
As opposed to.
>> Corinne (26:16):
I just feel like the cage door is busted open and the
lock is broken on the ground. Like anything
is possible. And that feels so
much more accurate.
And I just get to wonder about it. Like, sometimes I ask a question
and my mom will be like, oh, you could Google that.
(26:37):
I'm sure Siri could tell you. And I'm like, or
I could just wonder about it. Like,
remember the days when we didn't always get answers to our questions?
>> Sarah (26:46):
Totally. Like right away, immediately. Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
>> Corinne (26:50):
Like I'm. Sometimes I'm just like, I wonder about
that. And I don't Google it and I don't
ask Siri or Alexa or
anybody else. I just wonder about it.
>> Sarah (27:03):
Like, I love that.
I love that. And that feels so hard.
Like my little, heart, my little
researcher heart, my five wing, she's like
trying not to hyperventilate. Like, but, but I want to know. But I,
but like, what do you mean? What do you mean?
>> Corinne (27:20):
I know, because you'd be like, I have a Google Doc on that. I
will have that to you. I'm going to send it to you now.
>> Sarah (27:25):
You know, extensive research with really
chaotic notes, but, you know, the information is there. Yeah,
yeah. But I do think that's really beautiful,
especially coming from the place that you,
like where you're bringing that. The way you're pulling that thread through this
conversation. I think that is so beautiful because also
it is that like micro macro. It's
(27:45):
the, is it high stakes? It's not, it's not high stakes. Not everything's so
high stakes. Not everything is, is, you
know, dependent on
what we can find out about what's true or not true or like what
we can convince others about what's true or not
true. Right. Like that's not our job. And
isn't that wonderful? Isn't, that the best?
>> Corinne (28:05):
I love that for us. I love that for
us. Like it's not even our job to convince anybody
listening to, to agree with this. Like,
yeah, it's you.
>> Sarah (28:15):
Yeah, you can totally disagree.
We could be wrong. We could be so wrong. We
will be.
>> Corinne (28:21):
There will be times. How fun is that? We could be totally wrong.
And it's just not like the stakes like you
said. Like, what if the stakes don't have to be
so high? Who would you even be if the
stakes didn't have to be so high all
the time. Right.
>> Sarah (28:38):
Imagine.
>> Corinne (28:39):
Yeah, Imagine we might actually have
fun and play sometimes instead of
going to lecture series.
>> Sarah (28:49):
I like that for us, bless our hearts.
Could have fun. We could play. We do.
>> Corinne (28:55):
I mean we could. Well, we're practicing. We've been practicing
for a while now.
>> Sarah (28:59):
We have. On purpose.
>> Corinne (29:02):
It didn't come easy for a long time.
>> Sarah (29:36):
I have something written down that you said and I didn't
finish the note because I know that you were saying so many great things.
And so I just wrote it down thinking I'll just remember
and I don't know. So I'm gonna, I'm like putting you on
the spot right now because I actually want to know what, where you were going with this.
It's something that you said recently and it was something like these lands,
these landscapes of our soul.
(29:57):
But then you said other cool things and I didn't write them down.
So do you remember that conversation? Do you?
>> Corinne (30:03):
Okay. I think like when we were talking, when I was saying
landscapes, you know, it was,
I had said something about Sedona, but then I was also
telling you about how in that same
time frame, which again was soon after moving back
to the States. So everything was like really, I was just really.
Everything was really disorienting. Right. and we had gone
(30:24):
on a, Navajo led tour
through Antelope Canyon at the time, which,
if you don't know, you can only go through the
slot canyons, in Northern Arizona
on Navajo land. You can only go with a guide,
which is really beautiful and important and
it was a really impactful experience. But
(30:46):
I will never forget our guide sharing with
us that the, that the tribal
name for those slot canyons is
the home of the wind. And
that felt so
true. Right? Like those canyons are
literally carved by the wind and the water.
(31:07):
Right? You go to the Grand Canyon, you go to Horseshoe Bend, you
go to any of the places that, you know, everybody's Instagramming right now.
Like those places, like, you
know the proverb, I don't know if it's a Chinese proverb. it's
attributed differently in different spaces. But as water
drips through stone. Right, like the Grand
Canyon. As water drips through stone. So
there was a space in that season
(31:30):
where I was experiencing all of these
landscapes and it was really transforming
my idea of a cathedral. I think that's when I
started talking about cathedral skies was the,
the idea that these, and the indigenous
spirituality that informs that land
because of who it belongs. To the communities it belongs
(31:50):
to. and feeling like a guest, not only
on that land physically, but in that
spirituality. the idea of
reciprocity between us and the land,
us and these landscapes,
those indigenous teachings that are
so value
(32:11):
valuable. And, Like Holly talks about,
stories belong to the land. Right? Those aren't my
stories. I don't get to take those stories from
the Navajo Nation and
claim them. Those are Navajo stories, and
those stories belong to that land in northern Arizona.
So, like, understanding that and learning about
that during those, months. And I would say
(32:33):
really, Those first couple of years of being.
>> Sarah (32:35):
Back.
>> Corinne (32:38):
Really started to expand my idea
of spirituality being the
landscape of our soul.
So for me, it looks like northern Arizona. in a lot of ways, it
looks like the desert for both of us, just because we, walked these
paths during our
seasons of healing. So
(32:58):
the idea that our stories could belong to the
land that they were
experienced on is,
powerful.
>> Sarah (33:07):
That's very powerful. I mean, it's similar in
that idea of the significant,
insignificant, that understanding of
our place within the bigger place of things. And
I love that. The desert. I mean, in Skies, the. The desert
is such a character. Like one of the main characters
of our book is the land. Because so much of
(33:28):
our unraveling and
returning happened across those landscapes of
hiking desert trails and traveling through
the canyons and walking through
the pines in Northern Arizona. And just
so many moments, so many moments that, gave
us in so many different ways, the room
(33:49):
to unfurl, to.
To kind of lay it all out there and find
ourselves again as we were healing. And
I love thinking about. As much as our stories belong
to the land, I mean, I think about that and it's that
like, What I picture is like, the desert, and then
there's just like gold confetti littered throughout
(34:10):
the miles. Because it's like all of our stories, all of our
healing, all of our wounds, everything
exists out there just shimmering, right?
And what we're bringing into,
as much as the stories live with the land, that land,
what made me think of is that that landscape of our souls
is like. As much as the story lives in the land, the
(34:31):
land lives in us. And in our story, we carry
that with us. That sense of place, that
sense of belonging and connection and responsibility
and, interdependency. All those beautiful things that,
That I think before
I allowed myself to walk through
deconstruction, to walk through the grief, to
(34:53):
run full speed toward my
returning, I
feel in so many ways, so much bigger and
more and it makes me think of what our dear friend Mel
says so often. She's always
encouraging us toward is more,
More of you. Like, be more. And it's this
really beautiful, welcoming,
(35:15):
expansive, like, can't get enough. Like,
give us more. What else you got? You know? And
yeah, as someone who experienced a lot
of messaging, especially within my religious structure,
to be less, to be smaller,
to, you know, that, that I was too much.
yep. To have that invitation now to be
(35:36):
more and to feel that. To feel as big as
the whole sea. Right. To feel as big as the whole desert.
To feel, to feel like my story is their
story, is your story is our story. And that's a good
thing. Has been incredibly
healing for me in this process of
not only healing, but returning like a full
(35:57):
hearted, fully embodied,
stepping into who I am, who I've always been,
and the beautiful possibility of who I can
be, who we can be. That it's
unknown. Speaking to what you were saying earlier, that that isn't. And
isn't that beautiful and isn't that exciting that it's unknown and we
don't know and we're going to make mistakes as we go.
(36:17):
But what a wonderful thing
to be free.
>> Corinne (36:22):
It, like, makes me like, pull up in my rib cage. Like,
like, it's just like such a deep breath. It's
such a deep breath that like, I feel like my lungs could hardly hold
it. And yet then it reminds, it makes me feel think of like
floating, like buoyancy and like it doesn't matter
how deep the ocean is,
if we can float, like, if, if we're able
to remain
(36:45):
big and expansive and
full, like it, like we can,
we can float through anything. Like, it. It's okay. Like, that's the
safety. The safety isn't how deep
is the water, how high are the stakes? The safety
is in our own lungs, in our own rib
cage. And that's like. There's so many
(37:06):
landscapes in there, right? It's like that I just want to like,
pull up in my ribs. I,
I, like. I can't imagine going back.
I can't imagine going back to
a closed cage. I can't imagine going back
to a,
(37:26):
anything, less than that big
landscape. Deep breath. Like, I
don't know, it's, it's, it's too good. And, and honestly,
like, we have these moments where we
are doing little things or big
things on behalf of ourselves, on,
in recognition of who we've always been,
(37:48):
that we've always been good. That the dreams and
the Longings of our. Of that landscape, soul have always
been good. And when we take steps towards. Toward that
and we say that phrase to each other. There she is.
There you are. You know, like
that's that with you, right?
That it's that phrase that reminds us that
(38:09):
we're seen, that we're known by one
another and that it's good. It's so
deeply good. So when you
have a moment and
you know, whether it's at the barn or you know, whether it's in something
small, whether it's you, Whether it's a
painting or whether it's just, you
(38:29):
know, a moment in one of your days, or whether it's the rainbow
prisms on your kitchen wall, like it's. There you
are. And that is just so deeply
good that there no longer feels like there's a
lack. That space that once felt like
maybe it was empty and needed to be filled with something. It
is filled with something. Us. Ourselves. Like
(38:50):
we're getting so big and we're getting just
more and more and more of ourselves. And when
we're surrounded by other women who are calling
that out of us. Like more. Like you said, show me more.
Bring more. Write more of yourself into that book. Tell
more of yourself in that story.
>> Sarah (39:06):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (39:08):
There's no, It's. It's so full
that sometimes I forget there was ever
a space. Sometimes I forget there was ever
a wondering of what now.
And that's a slow. Finding ourselves before
we can find each other. That is a slow,
slow journey. That was not overnight.
>> Sarah (39:31):
No. No. And it. And it could not be
rushed. It could not be forced. It
couldn't. It couldn't be manipulated. I think that
the. The work of returning to ourselves, of
creating enough safety within
ourselves for ourself to return to
that takes the time it takes. And
(39:52):
the only way is through, right?
Oh, I hate that for us.
>> Corinne (39:56):
I hate that. Honestly. The only way is through because
somebody thinks it's so rude. I need a
shortcut. Like it doesn't sound fun.
That's my seven. It does not. The only ways through is not
fun.
>> Sarah (40:09):
That. That's true. You could always pray. A prayer.
>> Corinne (40:15):
Are you going to pray for me about that?
>> Sarah (40:17):
Yeah, you could. You could join a small group maybe.
Might help you.
sorry. The only way is through. You
got to do our work. It's so rude. I know.
But the thing is like. And I think this is probably
where we're. I mean we're going to. The conversation is
inevitable. We're going to be having it at some point in some episode. But
(40:38):
it's the, the, it's the it's the self,
find ourselves, return to ourselves before we can find
our people. And that,
that is because of a moment like we could
have a moment like our friend Mel inviting
us into more. Because she is also a woman who has, who
has made safety within herself for herself. Right. She's
(40:58):
safe for us and for others because of the work that she's
done. And that's just the inevitability of,
of being a person. It's just you can't
avoid it. Right. And what I
think we're talking about is in many ways
when we stop fighting that and we stop trying to find
shortcuts and we stop trying to opt out and we
(41:19):
stop trying to hand over our agency and we just
let ourselves float.
>> Corinne (41:25):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (41:25):
And recognize like that phrase, we are the whole
sea. It's that we don't need to be afraid of the water. Right. It's that we
are the water. Like we don't have to be
afraid of the process. We
don't have to. When we just submit to that and we sort of let
go is really the beginnings of that safety and that
returning. You don't have to be in control of that. We
(41:46):
don't have to be the boss of that. Right.
>> Corinne (41:49):
Yeah. And the people who are in that
same flow, in that same current, doing
that same work, that's how we find each
other. And.
There's nothing better. And sometimes people, we
find each other for a season and move on. And
sometimes we find each other and we stay.
>> Sarah (42:08):
Yeah. And it all belongs, right? Yep.
The timeline of
of how and when and for how long we find each other is,
is not, is not always, always
meant to be forever and ever and ever.
That doesn't make it any less significant or beautiful
or meaningful. It's all part of it. Yeah.
>> Corinne (42:30):
I feel like that might be something we should talk about next.
>> Sarah (42:33):
Yeah, I'm gonna make a half note and then I'm gonna ask you about
it next week and then you will remind me of what else
you said that I forgot. I'm m gonna make a half note that this is
something we should talk about.
>> Corinne (42:44):
Yeah, let's come back to that part. Let's, let's. Yep, let's keep going
on that. okay.
>> Rebeca (43:09):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah
Carter and Corrine Shark on the 1C Story
Network for more information about this. And all
of our stories, please visit
just1c.com that's
J-U S T O N
E C.com.
>> Sarah (43:57):
The perfect button down shirt is like a side quest.
>> Singer (44:01):
The 1C Story Network
for the love of stories.
For all the match strikers.
>> Corinne (00:05):
This is spiritual pyro.
>> Sarah (00:26):
Okay. All right, well, hi there.
>> Corinne (00:29):
Hi.
>> Sarah (00:30):
So I can't stop thinking about what we were talking about last
episode about agency, what you
were saying about specifically about
safety. Like I just feel like we
could pull that thread and talk about that some more today
because the wheels have been spinning and I'm
like that idea that we can't,
(00:52):
we can't be safe for someone else until we've
learned to be safe for ourselves.
That is so profound. I think that it has such
far reaching implications that we
can't skip that step. So yeah, I would love
to explore that a little bit more.
>> Corinne (01:09):
Okay, well, I mean, honestly, can we just jump right in on that? Because
what that makes me think of, and this is not in our
notes. The, this is like what that makes me think of
is benevolent patriarchy.
So let's just go there if you don't mind.
>> Sarah (01:25):
Go there, go there because. Okay.
>> Corinne (01:28):
Because safety and agency, right. So if we are taught
that we can't trust ourselves, benevolent patriarchy says, let me
take care of you, let me protect
you. You need God. You need God to protect
you. You need a pastor to protect you. You need a
husband to protect you. You need a father to protect it. You need
somebody else outside of yourself
(01:48):
to be safe. Right. And benevolent
patriarchy is like, let me do that for you because
I love you so much. Right. And we get so
conditioned to look to that we're
raised up. We look to our dad, we look to our
uncles, our older brothers, we look to our boyfriends
and then a husband, we look to a pastor, we look to God.
We're told that that is how we stay
(02:10):
safe. So really from a young age we are
conditioned to think that we're not safe, safe unless
someone outside of ourselves provides us with some
protection. So this idea
that we could be safe in ourselves, I mean
it really is part of what upsets the system.
What disrupts the system is us
(02:32):
having the audacity to become
safe at home in ourselves. Right,
Okay. I mean, I mean that
is that.
>> Sarah (02:42):
Yeah, that's fire. That's fire.
>> Corinne (02:45):
That's what I'm thinking.
>> Sarah (02:46):
Yeah. Oh, that's what you're thinking? Just a casual thought for you.
Yeah.
>> Corinne (02:51):
Like based on what you just said, that was what just immediately
snapped into my mind. Yeah.
>> Sarah (02:55):
I ah, mean I love it because it's so true. And I mean that's a.
The concept of benevolent patriarchy is one we have
explored before in us, like in our Conversations and our lives,
obviously we bump up against it as women all
the time. We're raising daughters, we're raising sons, we're
navigating how to. How to,
I don't know, not protect them, but like, show them a different
(03:16):
way. And. And that
concept was so prevalent
in my experiences with religion,
Christianity and church that I didn't
see the difference. Same, same.
Yeah, it's like, that it's so
interwoven in the experiences that I've had. And that's not,
again, blanket here. No, not all men,
(03:39):
not all churches, of course, not all, whatever.
Right. But like, that has. I have encountered it
at such levels that I could not tell you
the. What I couldn't separate out what was
religion here, what was the benevolent patriarchy
and that messaging that you
can't make it on your own. You're not safe on your own. You
can't trust yourself, you can't trust your thoughts, you
(04:01):
can't. You're too emotional, you are
unpredictable. You don't have what it takes. All these
things that it's this underlying message, not
usually so blatant as that.
>> Corinne (04:12):
Right.
>> Sarah (04:12):
It's Lace. The idea of benevolent is like,
it's so kind and it's so
loving, generous, and it's. Yes,
exactly. So when you're taught
that that is what love feels like and that's what love looks like,
that is some pretty messed up conditioning. Right? Like the
amount of. Even in our last conversation, our last
(04:33):
episode, talking about phantom
faith and the experience of grief after deconstruction,
I mean, you're also
untangling all those
messages and webs because all of that was tied up
in the same big things, right?
>> Corinne (04:48):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think, you know, as we
are moving into this conversation of, okay, what then?
Like, what comes next after you have that liminal space,
space in between setting down everything you thought you
knew for sure and moving forward,
you know, how do we do that? Well, I
mean, it really is that process of coming
(05:10):
home to ourselves, and that is so
revolutionary for women in, on such
a cellular level to begin to feel
safe in our own bodies, which, quite frankly, at a lot of
time we still don't. But that sense of
self being safe, it really
does change everything and not all at
once. I think this really, truly is part
(05:33):
of the concept of unraveling because it is
slow and it is thread by thread. And I think in our
last episode, Sarah, you said sometimes
deconstruction is about faith, but it's also about a lot of other things
too. People can be in these deconstructive processes
about things that aren't related necessarily specifically
to religion. And I think that the idea of benevolent
(05:53):
patriarchy, no matter what kind of family
we come from or what kind of relationships
we've been in, there is this idea that that is
for our own good and we need to
submit to it for our own good.
and I don't know, I can't help but wonder if the idea of
reconstruction of what,
(06:14):
what now, what after all of this, what now?
How do we move forward is this
process of
what really is for our own good? And
how do we start acting on behalf of
ourselves and seeing our,
our place and our movement in the world in a way
(06:34):
that is more accurate
than that when, when we really
truly can come home to ourselves, return to ourselves.
And that's a bit of skies right there, right? You know,
we go there in sky is that process of returning to ourselves.
(07:22):
You had said something, you had said something recently about
how, leaving
religion didn't mean leaving yourself. And
I wanna, I wanna bring us back to that because I think this is
a good time. I don't know, I just wanna, I, I just
like kind of setting you up to riff on something that you've said before.
>> Sarah (07:42):
So, like, wind her up and let her go.
>> Corinne (07:43):
Yeah, why don't, why don't you just go on that for a second?
Yeah.
>> Sarah (07:47):
Well, okay, so. Because
what I'm thinking as you were talking and I think this is all very
connected, is in the past we talked about parts work and
ifs and internal family systems and this idea that there are
parts of us that need updating as we
go through healing and as we work toward this
returning to our self concept. I,
(08:07):
I think in that self safety that we're
working on building within ourselves first
is that sense of like, are we actually safe enough for
the parts of us who need updating to
return too? Like, are we, have we done
the work of
deconstructing these pieces to the point where now
(08:28):
as we're choosing to reconstruct, we are actually
embodying a safe enough space for that? Like,
we don't just one day return to ourselves.
Right. There's a reason that we become so fractured. There's a
reason that we become disconnected from ourself
in all these ways and it takes time. I think one of the
most important pieces to hold in this is
(08:48):
trust. Right? We have to, in a lot of ways,
earn back our own trust as we're
considering stepping into a future that looks
different, that we're Choosing and that we're
actively engaging with from a very self led
place to do that we have to be safe enough for
ourselves. And that is, I think that takes time and that
(09:10):
takes trust, takes honesty, so many things.
but yeah, this, the returning to self peace.
I mean it's that ah, we always say, you know, you gotta go see about a
girl. It's like we, there's
this element of like, yeah, we have to, we have to, we're
doing this work so that we can be safe homes for
ourselves. And we do a lot of that, I think
(09:32):
interdependently. And that's really beautiful too. It's
as much as the work is ours to do,
it's also beautifully communal and
supportive. I mean you and I have found that over the years time and
again that we are responsible for our own work.
But we have that with you support
from each other and from others that really is so
(09:53):
bolstering and necessary and leads to
whatever it is that we're reconstructing and building
toward becomes naturally bigger
than us. Which I think is so
beautiful. Which makes me think
of. I am going to butcher the quote. So I'm just going
to tell you the words and you, you tell me the quote. But it's the one
(10:14):
that you said to me the other day about cathedrals and
physics.
>> Corinne (10:17):
Oh yeah, yeah.
>> Sarah (10:19):
Do you know what I'm talking about? Okay. I mean that feels
connected.
>> Corinne (10:24):
Okay, okay, okay. Well yeah, I
mean, because you know, I was just in, you know, when I was
out of town, recently and went to a little bookstore and got
myself a book, about whales. Of course.
>> Sarah (10:35):
Of course you did. Of course I did.
>> Corinne (10:38):
Supporting local bookstores. but anyway, I just,
even just opened up the, you know, the very beginning
of it. And there was a line,
that I believe was in the prologue that said, show
me the difference between a cathedral and
physics. And that was
such a. Yes, like,
(10:58):
that was such a, like a gasp
phrase for me to read because immediately
I was like, show me the difference between
cathedrals and a slot canyon.
Show me the difference between cathedrals and
staring into the eye of a humpback whale
calf underwater. Like, show me the
difference between cathedrals and the Milky
(11:21):
Way. Like, show me
there is no difference in my mind. And I think that that is something that
came from my
unraveling process and it makes me think about,
being soon after we came back from Thailand,
I was in Sedona and for
the first time walked into the
chapel, of the Holy Cross, which is very well known it's this
(11:44):
gorgeous little chapel that's on the side of the red
rock. And it is really,
really simple and beautiful inside and reminded me
so much of the, The structure of it.
Reminded me so much of the church that I grew up in, the
Episcopal church. it's like a frame. And anyway, it's
just very sweet. But I will never forget
there was this massive painting above
(12:06):
the candle prayer grotto where all the red
votive candles were lined up. And, you know,
everyone would come in and light a candle and have their
moment. And there was this giant
portrait of a woman
above the candles, and she
was draped in this red. I mean, the
(12:27):
colors were very, like, red and purple and blues. And
she had this very,
evocative stare.
it was a little unnerving. and I remember thinking, wow,
that is a bold choice to put as
the main piece of art in your
tiny little chapel, you know, so much so
(12:47):
I was so kind of struck by it that I went to
the little gift shop and bought a greeting card so that I could have it and
keep it and refer to it. But it was
this moment of the unexpected.
And I remember feeling like it was
so much more likely that that was,
ah, Mary, the Magdalene, as opposed to, like a Mother
(13:09):
Mary. It was very much like this
powerful.
This powerful sense.
so anyway, I was thinking, though, you know, and then you look out the
windows and it's the red rocks, and it's
this really mystical, beautiful space
in Sedona. And
(13:30):
the nerve of this little chapel to put this
woman at the forefront. This. This art, this piece
of art. It just felt so bold. It felt so.
Like it matched the boldness of the blue
sky against the orange and red rusted rocks. And
it was just this really powerful visual.
And what's the difference? I kept thinking to myself, what
(13:50):
is the difference of being inside in this
little, beautiful little chapel and being outside
under these cathedral skies? So when I read
that phrase in that book, I was like, yes, like,
everything is a cathedral. You know, a hospital
room can be a cathedral,
right? Like, laying out under
(14:12):
the stars can be a cathedral. Like, it's
all a cathedral. So
that was really, I'm like, oh, I can't wait to get into this book. If that's how
it starts, I'm in.
>> Sarah (14:22):
Oh, yeah. That's incredible. I'm probably gonna need to borrow that
from you when you're done.
>> Corinne (14:25):
Yeah, it'll be one we pass around.
Yeah.
>> Sarah (14:29):
It's so beautiful. To me, that
speaks to the idea of
walking away from religion and
the journey of reclaiming your
spirituality. That walking
away from a religion doesn't mean that you're walking away from
that spiritual connection to something bigger than yourself
(14:49):
or the understanding that everything can be a
cathedral, and by that, everything
can. Can be sacred. Any beautiful sacred
moment can happen anywhere. And
that's really speaking to, I think, this idea of being
connected to something bigger or
more or whatever, all different language and words
(15:10):
for it. Right. But just generally speaking, an idea
that the church doesn't have the corner market on
what's sacred. The church doesn't have the corner market on
spirituality. And that. That when I think about that
personally, I'm like, yeah, the spirituality element to
me was true when I was 5,
and it was true all through my experience of church,
(15:30):
and it's still true now. Right. Like,
I didn't have to leave that behind
when I outgrew my religion. I didn't have
to walk away from it as almost
like a sacrifice. I guess I can't be spiritual
if I'm not affiliated with a religion
anymore. But, yeah, that's like the
(15:51):
myth. That's the lie. The reality is, is for you to
read a line like that, for you to stand in that. In that
chapel in Sedona and look m at the red
rocks and look at the pews and see that everything
is. Everything is sacred. Everything is
beautiful. I think those are really profound
moments where you go, yeah, like,
I get to stay intact. There's no
(16:13):
sacrificing of who we are
when we go through a process like deconstruction.
And as we're finding ourselves in that,
like, what's next, right. Coming out of the phantom faith,
the in between, as we're back to that
idea in skies of returning, returning to
ourselves after everything's fallen
(16:34):
apart and finding who we are again. And
those moments, that
I've had where I can at least have
enough awareness when they're happening to go like,
almost like one foot in the moment, one foot out, observing,
and to recognize, like, ooh, okay, this
is a significant moment. Like, something that's happening right now is
(16:54):
shifting something, or when we're talking about returning,
it's like, there she is. Like, that's
true. That's true.
>> Corinne (17:01):
Right?
>> Sarah (17:02):
That's still true, and that's still mine. And I get to
keep that. And
I just. I think that's so profound. it makes me think
about the. When you said
cathedral, when you. When you shared that quote with me, I thought was
thinking about redwood trees and how
they're Is it like a group of
(17:22):
redwood trees is called a cathedral?
I believe that that's true. Is it like.
Yeah, the interconnection. Okay, I want to do a Google, but I'm going to
do it right now, I swear.
>> Corinne (17:33):
Oh, I love that. Okay.
>> Sarah (17:35):
Yeah, I feel like that's true.
We need a fact checker. We need a fact checker. But,
for the sake of the moment, I'm, like,
99% sure that's true.
>> Corinne (17:46):
You guys have a fact checker.
>> Sarah (17:51):
What do you got for us?
>> Rebeca (17:52):
Yeah, it turns out, yes, a group of redwood trees, especially
if they form, are growing in a circle, like around the
base of a larger parent tree, is often
called a cathedral.
>> Sarah (18:02):
Cathedral. Isn't that gorgeous?
>> Corinne (18:04):
Oh, my gosh.
>> Sarah (18:06):
Thank you.
>> Corinne (18:06):
Are you kidding me? Okay,
so perfect, right?
>> Sarah (18:11):
And so there you are. And again, even just that,
like,
>> Rebeca (18:15):
especially if they're growing in a circle.
>> Sarah (18:17):
Are you kidding me? The gorgeousness of that, even the
symbolism of that, and the idea that, like,
underneath, the ground, there's all these
interconnected roots that, you know, feed
healing to the ones that are
hurting and communicate in all these languages.
And I, for me, I go, just because
(18:38):
we don't understand the language doesn't mean they don't have
one. Right? Like, the arrogance to think that
there's not all kinds of communication happening just
because we, don't speak it, we're not fluent
in cathedral redwoods, doesn't mean that
they're not communicating. And again, back to that idea
of everything being spiritual, of. Of anything being able
to be a cathedral.
(19:01):
Part of, I think, returning is recognizing our
place, like, in the circle of things and
the bigness of things. It's that moment,
like, when you're looking up at the sky and you can see
the stars clearly, and you have that moment of, like, you almost feel like you're
floating. You have a sense of how
small, and yet it's, like,
(19:21):
significant and insignificant we are all at once.
>> Corinne (19:26):
Oh, it's that overview effect that, like,
astronauts talk about right when they. When they leave,
I don't know, atmosphere. Oh, okay. So my
brother, obviously my brother Jared. Hi, Jared, was
teaching me about this years ago. And so then I
just noticed it in so many different spaces
where the overview effect is what someone who has left
orbit, or left the atmosphere and is in orbit.
(19:48):
When you look back, back at the Earth, when you look back at
the planet, everyone
has this sense of the
smallness of our lives, the
insignificance, and yet the
grandeur and the Beauty and the tremendously
deep significance of it all. And just how small we
all are, how interconnected we all are.
(20:11):
so it's, it's that micro macro at the same time. But yeah, so
from a, from a, cosmic
perspective, right, that's. That term is the overview effect.
And apparently it's really universal for anybody who's left the
earth's atmosphere, which I just think is really
incredible to have that kind of
perspective and that it seems to be so consistent.
(20:32):
M.
(20:59):
When you talk about not leaving ourselves and not
losing ourselves, returning to ourselves, I feel
like the
overwhelming sentiment is that we become
more deeply spiritual,
we become more of ourselves. We become m.
more deeply connected to who we've always been. So that,
that little five year old
(21:20):
spirituality, it's a connection all
the way back to who we have always been.
So whether it is searching, you know, whatever it is that we're
searching for, for me, what's true about the world, like,
I'm doing that all the more I'm just not
bound by doctrine anymore, you know,
all the more I'm wondering what's true about the world.
(21:42):
It's just bigger and broader and more
expansive and more inclusive than
I was once told. And so I
feel like that sense of belonging to ourselves,
it deepens and increases
the more honest we allow ourselves
to be. So
(22:04):
not being bound by rules or,
you know, a statement of faith like
that is the most freeing thing to be able
to actually wonder what might be true about the world
and what's true about love, what's
true about our humanity, what's true
about dignity, what's true about
(22:25):
how we learn and how we heal. And, those
questions have only deepened.
And yet I feel zero
responsibility to like, determine
some system of belief now. So, like, the
idea of reconstruction is for some people. Okay,
what do you believe in?
(22:45):
that's not the interesting question to me.
M. The more interesting question is
what's. What's true about the world
and how people love each other? What's true
about the world in our
humanity, our shared humanity? What. Like, those are.
Those questions are more interesting than what do you think about the
(23:06):
Atonement? Or what do you think about. You
know? I mean, I have thoughts about a lot of those things. Right.
Like, I feel like I got a, I got a.
A master's by proxy when Eric was going through his
apologetics program at Biola all those years ago. You know, I
listened to every cd. I. I, you
know, read so many of the books, and I think we even. The four
(23:26):
of us went to a lecture together, didn't we?
>> Sarah (23:29):
Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's so true. I remember that.
>> Corinne (23:31):
Do you remember that? That was like a double date.
>> Sarah (23:34):
That was a double date to listen to a
lecture on theology. Yeah. Right.
>> Corinne (23:39):
Yeah.
Taking yourself too seriously.
>> Sarah (23:46):
We were trying so hard to be so good.
Oh.
>> Corinne (23:50):
But, I mean, but. But that was. That was the system. That was the
community. Right. That's what you did. yeah. That is really funny.
But. But I think, like, I have opinions and I have thoughts
about all those things and. And how. But that's no
longer the conversation I'm interested in having.
Like, I no longer feel any responsibility to
decide anything. I no
(24:10):
longer feel bound to
claim a certain,
label or identity or anything like that.
I'm much more interested in
how we're all trying to be human with each other.
>> Sarah (24:26):
M. And that. Would you say that's a direct
result of. Of what you've gone through with deconstruction?
Like, is that.
>> Corinne (24:32):
Ah.
>> Sarah (24:33):
Because you have also always been
searching for what's the
most true and the most honest. Like
that. That element of, like, knowledge and wanting to
be aligned, with some. With the most true thing.
Right. That piece.
>> Corinne (24:51):
It's just that true no longer has a capital letter.
>> Sarah (24:53):
I think that's where I was going is like. I feel like
what's shifted isn't necessarily in the same vein of what we're talking
about. It's not necessarily that you let, like, left it behind
or let it go. It's more that
what it means. It's almost like the definition of it has
shifted or grown, like, with you. Like, you're
still so captivated by the information and you want to
(25:15):
know these things. But it's like, what that means is different
than it used to, which I just think is actually really beautiful.
That, to me, is such a beautiful part of the deconstruction process
that you went through. Like, you're still chasing
the information because you want to know and because it's beautiful
and interesting to you. But it's not
necessarily deciding your,
salvation anymore. No.
>> Corinne (25:37):
No. Yeah. I mean, I think
my. My thoughts about almost
everything have changed and
I. That's so exciting to me because
it's like, well, they. They could keep changing.
I don't know. I could be wrong about something. I don't know.
It just doesn't depend on me. Like, nothing that
(25:58):
is true depends on me to believe in it in order for it to
be true. And that is such a Relief that
it becomes fun to think about
what it means to be human, what it is to be living in this
world, in this unit. It's all just possibility.
>> Sarah (26:14):
As opposed to.
>> Corinne (26:16):
I just feel like the cage door is busted open and the
lock is broken on the ground. Like anything
is possible. And that feels so
much more accurate.
And I just get to wonder about it. Like, sometimes I ask a question
and my mom will be like, oh, you could Google that.
(26:37):
I'm sure Siri could tell you. And I'm like, or
I could just wonder about it. Like,
remember the days when we didn't always get answers to our questions?
>> Sarah (26:46):
Totally. Like right away, immediately. Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
>> Corinne (26:50):
Like I'm. Sometimes I'm just like, I wonder about
that. And I don't Google it and I don't
ask Siri or Alexa or
anybody else. I just wonder about it.
>> Sarah (27:03):
Like, I love that.
I love that. And that feels so hard.
Like my little, heart, my little
researcher heart, my five wing, she's like
trying not to hyperventilate. Like, but, but I want to know. But I,
but like, what do you mean? What do you mean?
>> Corinne (27:20):
I know, because you'd be like, I have a Google Doc on that. I
will have that to you. I'm going to send it to you now.
>> Sarah (27:25):
You know, extensive research with really
chaotic notes, but, you know, the information is there. Yeah,
yeah. But I do think that's really beautiful,
especially coming from the place that you,
like where you're bringing that. The way you're pulling that thread through this
conversation. I think that is so beautiful because also
it is that like micro macro. It's
(27:45):
the, is it high stakes? It's not, it's not high stakes. Not everything's so
high stakes. Not everything is, is, you
know, dependent on
what we can find out about what's true or not true or like what
we can convince others about what's true or not
true. Right. Like that's not our job. And
isn't that wonderful? Isn't, that the best?
>> Corinne (28:05):
I love that for us. I love that for
us. Like it's not even our job to convince anybody
listening to, to agree with this. Like,
yeah, it's you.
>> Sarah (28:15):
Yeah, you can totally disagree.
We could be wrong. We could be so wrong. We
will be.
>> Corinne (28:21):
There will be times. How fun is that? We could be totally wrong.
And it's just not like the stakes like you
said. Like, what if the stakes don't have to be
so high? Who would you even be if the
stakes didn't have to be so high all
the time. Right.
>> Sarah (28:38):
Imagine.
>> Corinne (28:39):
Yeah, Imagine we might actually have
fun and play sometimes instead of
going to lecture series.
>> Sarah (28:49):
I like that for us, bless our hearts.
Could have fun. We could play. We do.
>> Corinne (28:55):
I mean we could. Well, we're practicing. We've been practicing
for a while now.
>> Sarah (28:59):
We have. On purpose.
>> Corinne (29:02):
It didn't come easy for a long time.
>> Sarah (29:36):
I have something written down that you said and I didn't
finish the note because I know that you were saying so many great things.
And so I just wrote it down thinking I'll just remember
and I don't know. So I'm gonna, I'm like putting you on
the spot right now because I actually want to know what, where you were going with this.
It's something that you said recently and it was something like these lands,
these landscapes of our soul.
(29:57):
But then you said other cool things and I didn't write them down.
So do you remember that conversation? Do you?
>> Corinne (30:03):
Okay. I think like when we were talking, when I was saying
landscapes, you know, it was,
I had said something about Sedona, but then I was also
telling you about how in that same
time frame, which again was soon after moving back
to the States. So everything was like really, I was just really.
Everything was really disorienting. Right. and we had gone
(30:24):
on a, Navajo led tour
through Antelope Canyon at the time, which,
if you don't know, you can only go through the
slot canyons, in Northern Arizona
on Navajo land. You can only go with a guide,
which is really beautiful and important and
it was a really impactful experience. But
(30:46):
I will never forget our guide sharing with
us that the, that the tribal
name for those slot canyons is
the home of the wind. And
that felt so
true. Right? Like those canyons are
literally carved by the wind and the water.
(31:07):
Right? You go to the Grand Canyon, you go to Horseshoe Bend, you
go to any of the places that, you know, everybody's Instagramming right now.
Like those places, like, you
know the proverb, I don't know if it's a Chinese proverb. it's
attributed differently in different spaces. But as water
drips through stone. Right, like the Grand
Canyon. As water drips through stone. So
there was a space in that season
(31:30):
where I was experiencing all of these
landscapes and it was really transforming
my idea of a cathedral. I think that's when I
started talking about cathedral skies was the,
the idea that these, and the indigenous
spirituality that informs that land
because of who it belongs. To the communities it belongs
(31:50):
to. and feeling like a guest, not only
on that land physically, but in that
spirituality. the idea of
reciprocity between us and the land,
us and these landscapes,
those indigenous teachings that are
so value
(32:11):
valuable. And, Like Holly talks about,
stories belong to the land. Right? Those aren't my
stories. I don't get to take those stories from
the Navajo Nation and
claim them. Those are Navajo stories, and
those stories belong to that land in northern Arizona.
So, like, understanding that and learning about
that during those, months. And I would say
(32:33):
really, Those first couple of years of being.
>> Sarah (32:35):
Back.
>> Corinne (32:38):
Really started to expand my idea
of spirituality being the
landscape of our soul.
So for me, it looks like northern Arizona. in a lot of ways, it
looks like the desert for both of us, just because we, walked these
paths during our
seasons of healing. So
(32:58):
the idea that our stories could belong to the
land that they were
experienced on is,
powerful.
>> Sarah (33:07):
That's very powerful. I mean, it's similar in
that idea of the significant,
insignificant, that understanding of
our place within the bigger place of things. And
I love that. The desert. I mean, in Skies, the. The desert
is such a character. Like one of the main characters
of our book is the land. Because so much of
(33:28):
our unraveling and
returning happened across those landscapes of
hiking desert trails and traveling through
the canyons and walking through
the pines in Northern Arizona. And just
so many moments, so many moments that, gave
us in so many different ways, the room
(33:49):
to unfurl, to.
To kind of lay it all out there and find
ourselves again as we were healing. And
I love thinking about. As much as our stories belong
to the land, I mean, I think about that and it's that
like, What I picture is like, the desert, and then
there's just like gold confetti littered throughout
(34:10):
the miles. Because it's like all of our stories, all of our
healing, all of our wounds, everything
exists out there just shimmering, right?
And what we're bringing into,
as much as the stories live with the land, that land,
what made me think of is that that landscape of our souls
is like. As much as the story lives in the land, the
(34:31):
land lives in us. And in our story, we carry
that with us. That sense of place, that
sense of belonging and connection and responsibility
and, interdependency. All those beautiful things that,
That I think before
I allowed myself to walk through
deconstruction, to walk through the grief, to
(34:53):
run full speed toward my
returning, I
feel in so many ways, so much bigger and
more and it makes me think of what our dear friend Mel
says so often. She's always
encouraging us toward is more,
More of you. Like, be more. And it's this
really beautiful, welcoming,
(35:15):
expansive, like, can't get enough. Like,
give us more. What else you got? You know? And
yeah, as someone who experienced a lot
of messaging, especially within my religious structure,
to be less, to be smaller,
to, you know, that, that I was too much.
yep. To have that invitation now to be
(35:36):
more and to feel that. To feel as big as
the whole sea. Right. To feel as big as the whole desert.
To feel, to feel like my story is their
story, is your story is our story. And that's a good
thing. Has been incredibly
healing for me in this process of
not only healing, but returning like a full
(35:57):
hearted, fully embodied,
stepping into who I am, who I've always been,
and the beautiful possibility of who I can
be, who we can be. That it's
unknown. Speaking to what you were saying earlier, that that isn't. And
isn't that beautiful and isn't that exciting that it's unknown and we
don't know and we're going to make mistakes as we go.
(36:17):
But what a wonderful thing
to be free.
>> Corinne (36:22):
It, like, makes me like, pull up in my rib cage. Like,
like, it's just like such a deep breath. It's
such a deep breath that like, I feel like my lungs could hardly hold
it. And yet then it reminds, it makes me feel think of like
floating, like buoyancy and like it doesn't matter
how deep the ocean is,
if we can float, like, if, if we're able
to remain
(36:45):
big and expansive and
full, like it, like we can,
we can float through anything. Like, it. It's okay. Like, that's the
safety. The safety isn't how deep
is the water, how high are the stakes? The safety
is in our own lungs, in our own rib
cage. And that's like. There's so many
(37:06):
landscapes in there, right? It's like that I just want to like,
pull up in my ribs. I,
I, like. I can't imagine going back.
I can't imagine going back to
a closed cage. I can't imagine going back
to a,
(37:26):
anything, less than that big
landscape. Deep breath. Like, I
don't know, it's, it's, it's too good. And, and honestly,
like, we have these moments where we
are doing little things or big
things on behalf of ourselves, on,
in recognition of who we've always been,
(37:48):
that we've always been good. That the dreams and
the Longings of our. Of that landscape, soul have always
been good. And when we take steps towards. Toward that
and we say that phrase to each other. There she is.
There you are. You know, like
that's that with you, right?
That it's that phrase that reminds us that
(38:09):
we're seen, that we're known by one
another and that it's good. It's so
deeply good. So when you
have a moment and
you know, whether it's at the barn or you know, whether it's in something
small, whether it's you, Whether it's a
painting or whether it's just, you
(38:29):
know, a moment in one of your days, or whether it's the rainbow
prisms on your kitchen wall, like it's. There you
are. And that is just so deeply
good that there no longer feels like there's a
lack. That space that once felt like
maybe it was empty and needed to be filled with something. It
is filled with something. Us. Ourselves. Like
(38:50):
we're getting so big and we're getting just
more and more and more of ourselves. And when
we're surrounded by other women who are calling
that out of us. Like more. Like you said, show me more.
Bring more. Write more of yourself into that book. Tell
more of yourself in that story.
>> Sarah (39:06):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (39:08):
There's no, It's. It's so full
that sometimes I forget there was ever
a space. Sometimes I forget there was ever
a wondering of what now.
And that's a slow. Finding ourselves before
we can find each other. That is a slow,
slow journey. That was not overnight.
>> Sarah (39:31):
No. No. And it. And it could not be
rushed. It could not be forced. It
couldn't. It couldn't be manipulated. I think that
the. The work of returning to ourselves, of
creating enough safety within
ourselves for ourself to return to
that takes the time it takes. And
(39:52):
the only way is through, right?
Oh, I hate that for us.
>> Corinne (39:56):
I hate that. Honestly. The only way is through because
somebody thinks it's so rude. I need a
shortcut. Like it doesn't sound fun.
That's my seven. It does not. The only ways through is not
fun.
>> Sarah (40:09):
That. That's true. You could always pray. A prayer.
>> Corinne (40:15):
Are you going to pray for me about that?
>> Sarah (40:17):
Yeah, you could. You could join a small group maybe.
Might help you.
sorry. The only way is through. You
got to do our work. It's so rude. I know.
But the thing is like. And I think this is probably
where we're. I mean we're going to. The conversation is
inevitable. We're going to be having it at some point in some episode. But
(40:38):
it's the, the, it's the it's the self,
find ourselves, return to ourselves before we can find
our people. And that,
that is because of a moment like we could
have a moment like our friend Mel inviting
us into more. Because she is also a woman who has, who
has made safety within herself for herself. Right. She's
(40:58):
safe for us and for others because of the work that she's
done. And that's just the inevitability of,
of being a person. It's just you can't
avoid it. Right. And what I
think we're talking about is in many ways
when we stop fighting that and we stop trying to find
shortcuts and we stop trying to opt out and we
(41:19):
stop trying to hand over our agency and we just
let ourselves float.
>> Corinne (41:25):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (41:25):
And recognize like that phrase, we are the whole
sea. It's that we don't need to be afraid of the water. Right. It's that we
are the water. Like we don't have to be
afraid of the process. We
don't have to. When we just submit to that and we sort of let
go is really the beginnings of that safety and that
returning. You don't have to be in control of that. We
(41:46):
don't have to be the boss of that. Right.
>> Corinne (41:49):
Yeah. And the people who are in that
same flow, in that same current, doing
that same work, that's how we find each
other. And.
There's nothing better. And sometimes people, we
find each other for a season and move on. And
sometimes we find each other and we stay.
>> Sarah (42:08):
Yeah. And it all belongs, right? Yep.
The timeline of
of how and when and for how long we find each other is,
is not, is not always, always
meant to be forever and ever and ever.
That doesn't make it any less significant or beautiful
or meaningful. It's all part of it. Yeah.
>> Corinne (42:30):
I feel like that might be something we should talk about next.
>> Sarah (42:33):
Yeah, I'm gonna make a half note and then I'm gonna ask you about
it next week and then you will remind me of what else
you said that I forgot. I'm m gonna make a half note that this is
something we should talk about.
>> Corinne (42:44):
Yeah, let's come back to that part. Let's, let's. Yep, let's keep going
on that. okay.
>> Rebeca (43:09):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah
Carter and Corrine Shark on the 1C Story
Network for more information about this. And all
of our stories, please visit
just1c.com that's
J-U S T O N
E C.com.
>> Sarah (43:57):
The perfect button down shirt is like a side quest.
>> Singer (44:01):
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for the love of stories.
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