August 24, 2025 • 49 mins
S1E12 When Friendship Falters
Continuing their discussion of friendship from Episode 11, Sarah and Corinne delve deep into their evolved understanding of how to behave and be when the smooth waters of relationship get choppy. What do you do when you get to a point in a relationship where there's a miss, whether that's a misunderstanding, a miscommunication, or a misalignment? When fracture or disruption happens, both parties are then invited into a decision. Is this something to figure out and navigate and work toward repairing or rebuilding and moving forward? Or is this a type of disruption that signals the completion of the relationship? Sarah and Corinne discuss how they practice navigating disruption in relationships while honoring their new ways of being, but not requiring the abandonment of themselves or regression into old patterns and thought processes.
Corinne dives into her realization of the collision of that old, ingrained desire to be right (which also meant she was “good”) with the newer, refreshing desire to grow in deep relationship. Sarah, too, is ever-learning to step away from an old way – the one that required her to have the appearance of submission and meekness – so that she can have authentically connected relationships rather than codependency that forces her to abandon her sense of justice.
Together, they explore the concept of forgiveness – both how to extend it, and how to vulnerably place yourself in a position of acknowledging the need for it.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram: @heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Pick up your copy of the skies are full of us at bookshop.org or your favorite bookstore.
Continuing their discussion of friendship from Episode 11, Sarah and Corinne delve deep into their evolved understanding of how to behave and be when the smooth waters of relationship get choppy. What do you do when you get to a point in a relationship where there's a miss, whether that's a misunderstanding, a miscommunication, or a misalignment? When fracture or disruption happens, both parties are then invited into a decision. Is this something to figure out and navigate and work toward repairing or rebuilding and moving forward? Or is this a type of disruption that signals the completion of the relationship? Sarah and Corinne discuss how they practice navigating disruption in relationships while honoring their new ways of being, but not requiring the abandonment of themselves or regression into old patterns and thought processes.
Corinne dives into her realization of the collision of that old, ingrained desire to be right (which also meant she was “good”) with the newer, refreshing desire to grow in deep relationship. Sarah, too, is ever-learning to step away from an old way – the one that required her to have the appearance of submission and meekness – so that she can have authentically connected relationships rather than codependency that forces her to abandon her sense of justice.
Together, they explore the concept of forgiveness – both how to extend it, and how to vulnerably place yourself in a position of acknowledging the need for it.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram: @heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Pick up your copy of the skies are full of us at bookshop.org or your favorite bookstore.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Sarah (00:02):
For all the match Strikers, this
is spiritual pyro.
>> Corinne (00:26):
Buckle up.
>> Sarah (00:29):
Yes. Friendships so complicated
and layered as we discussed last
week. And I know you
as well as I received just some really
interesting conversation, really insightful
conversation as a result from a few people who reached out
who definitely have had similar experiences to the
ones that we discussed on the last episode. And, and
(00:52):
even in conversations that were ongoing for you and I kind of
jumping into even just more
angles and more layers that are a part of that
conversation when it comes to
friendship, relationship, all those dynamics.
And One of the pieces that we
discussed that I thought was really interesting was
really that part of it where it's like what
(01:14):
happens, what happens when
we are the ones maybe who,
who got it wrong, who ah,
were the ones who were confronted or
who really had to sit with
with an issue that was brought to our attention. Maybe a place
where we said something that was hurtful or we
(01:36):
missed the mark or whatever it is. And I know
I have those, I have those
stories. I know you do too. And we all do.
Right? We're here. Human. It's. It's a piece of,
it's a piece of. Of relationship. It's just.
It's a part of the bigger, bigger picture.
>> Corinne (01:54):
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, almost
the moment that we finished
our last episode, you know, we.
We pushed stop on that
recording and it was like, oh,
our next, Our next episode has to be the other
side of that conversation. Our next
(02:15):
episode has to be the
other part of that conversation. That is
when we, you know, the situations
where it is our bridge to build,
the times where it is ours to fix.
You know, I feel like that, that piece of the
conversation where for me, you know, I was able
(02:37):
to talk about situations
that weren't mine to fix, that wasn't my bridge to build.
And those, those times are true and right.
It's the both and, and I could
feel the, the other side of that.
The weight of those times in
my own histories where the
(02:58):
honesty and the truth telling is
incomplete without
that peace where it was
mine to fix and it was mine to build. So
I was thinking about how I had. You know, I feel like
every single episode we're like, oh, and we get this
feedback and you know, all the, all these conversations we're
(03:18):
having and all of the messages we're getting and
it is true, we are getting
so much good feedback and so many
so many responses and so many messages. But
it was also really telling
for me to sit across a table from A really old
friend of mine recently, and we were having dinner
(03:39):
together, and it was right after that
episode had aired, and someone
that I've known for, let's see,
going on, I'd say 25 years.
so we've had a lot of friendship over a lot of years. We've
seen each other through a lot of seasons. And she,
you know, we're having dinner and, you know, we're catching up. We haven't seen each
(04:00):
other in a really long time. And she was able
to tell me how that episode landed for her.
And she was sitting there saying, oh, my gosh, this is exactly where
I'm at that episode. This is where it
hit. This is what I'm going through, this is what I'm experiencing.
And it was really actually
so meaningful because I don't expect
(04:21):
everybody that I know to listen to our podcast. Right?
I mean, that's actually just such a treat that someone
that I know is actually, you know, following along and taking
the time and happened to be listening to the most recent
episode. But not only that, but for it to be something
that is so, tangible and so current
and something that's so, true
(04:42):
and resonant for her current daily
life, that was a really special part of our
conversation. So, yes,
there's messages that we're getting, and yes, there are
conversations, that we're having online and through
DMs and through text messages. But then there's also this real
life thread that we're also
(05:03):
experiencing with, you know, people in our daily
lives. And that was a really,
meaningful moment for me to just
recognize that we're all walking these
paths
currently. We're all figuring this out
(05:23):
in our actual real lives.
Right? Like, this isn't just something that we're talking about on a
podcast. In theory. We're not just coming up with a
topic and, you know,
writing out bullet points and thinking, of examples
of things, you know, so that we can just bullshit our way through something.
Like, these are actually things that we're trying to figure out
(05:44):
as women walking through our
relationships in real time with one another,
you and I, you know, as we have our own
friendship. These are things that we navigate together.
These are things that we're navigating in our friendships
outside of each other. These are things that our friends
are navigating in their lives. And it just
(06:04):
was a moment where it just
was a reminder that we're
all just figuring it out.
None of us really know what the hell we're doing. We're
all just People, we're all just
trying to figure this thing out together. And
when we can come together and have these
(06:25):
conversations, honestly, whether it's
hear through these microphones or, you know, through
these podcast platforms or whether it's across a dinner table,
there is something so special about that shared honesty.
So, I don't know, it just felt really, powerful
to be able to share stories in that way.
And so it felt even more powerful to be able to
(06:46):
say the times that we've really
missed that mark, the times that we've really gotten
it wrong and the times that we've had to
choose to be the
one to own that
and to fix, to rebuild,
to choose, repair all of those things that,
(07:08):
are hard, that are humbling,
that are. That take time,
that take the time they take. Right? So I don't know.
I think that's a. It's a good, honest space for us
to balance last week's conversation.
>> Sarah (07:24):
And.
>> Corinne (07:26):
I think I just am glad that we're going to get into that today.
>> Sarah (08:02):
I think the, The. The whole idea
of what. What do you do when you get to
a point in a relationship where there's.
There's a miss, whether that's a
misunderstanding, a miscommunication,
you know, a misalignment, whether there's. There's some kind of
fracture or disruption that
(08:22):
happens and both parties
are then invited into a decision,
and is this something that we're going to figure out and
navigate and work toward,
repairing or rebuilding this
understanding and moving forward? Or is this a type
of disruption that is sort of opening our
(08:43):
eyes to like, oh, this just is sort of. This is the
completion of this relationship and
this is the closure, and then this is the moving on,
in different directions. And not every
time we disagree, does it mean obviously
that that's the end of the friendship? I think that
the lack of maturity in that type of
(09:05):
perspective, obviously
isn't what leads to deep, abiding,
loving connection. so for those
of us who are so hungry for that deep, abiding, loving
connection, the real question becomes, I think, how do
we practice navigating disruption in
our relationships in ways that can
(09:25):
be honoring to us that don't ask us to
abandon ourselves or to, like, regress,
but also are honoring to
the other person, you know, that we're in this relationship,
this friendship with. And I think that's a huge piece
of growing up and into maturity.
I think, as a person too, is this,
(09:49):
how do you do that? And I think a lot of that is Just through practice. And
it's really scary because it's that
vulnerability of like, oh, I don't
know for myself. I'm like, I don't ever want to make a mistake. I
don't ever want to mess up. it's so scary to have to be like,
oh, shit, that's on me. Like,
I, I did that. And now,
(10:09):
now there's this risk of, of,
of disconnection. And so
what do I do? How do I face that? How
do we fix this? and it's back to what you said about
what's mine to fix and what's not mine to
fix. And that can be really hard to know, especially if
it's new territory, if it's something
(10:30):
that hasn't been practiced much, you know, And I
think that's. That's something that we've talked about too, is
just how
it really takes the vulnerability and a courage to
try. In the same way that we talk about
in the last episode, the lone wolf out there
howling and wanting to be found.
(10:50):
The vulnerability and courage of that, of saying, I want to be
found. In a similar way, there's the vulnerability and
courage of saying, I want, I
want to fix this. I want connection, I want
to repair, I want to remain. And
the vulnerability of saying, and I don't know how quite how to
do that. and what comes to mind is what, you know,
(11:11):
we say what you've said so often, and I believe it comes from
Brene Brown. But that, you know, the story that
I'm telling myself. Right, that. That
language has been so incredibly helpful in so many
relationships in my life because it's, it's
almost like, neutralizes the conversation. It almost
invites a third party perspective where it's like,
(11:32):
this isn't you against me, this
is the story that I'm telling myself. And then
I can tell that story in a way that doesn't feel
aggressive or accusing
or disrespectful.
I don't know. It's been incredibly helpful tool for
us. Yeah.
>> Corinne (11:52):
Well, and I think also
what that kind of language
has done for us is it
has given us an
understanding that a relationship, a
friendship specifically, can be
so understood and so important from the
jump that it needs
(12:15):
language at the very
beginning that's agreed upon
so that there are tools and that there is,
that there is an agreement from
the beginning that can be used and
practiced, in safety.
(12:36):
So that when there is something that comes up,
there is already a system
in place to bring
repair and to. And to
practice. and to facilitate
resolution. You know, when that's already in place,
then it's much less scary. You know, when that's not in place
(12:57):
and you don't know how to go about that in a way that both
people understand, then that's really hard to navigate. So
I think, you know, Rene Brown's work
has, I think, you know, when, when we can. We put that in place
early on, so we're like, okay, you know, we already know that our
relationship, especially our creative work together, our
friendship, it's so important that we want to make sure that we protect it from
the beginning. You know, I think it's can be awkward
(13:20):
for people to do that on their own,
but we knew that we wanted to protect what we have
early on, and so we did that for ourselves. We did that for each
other. When what you say, though,
Sarah, about
what we're talking about in terms of, protecting each
other and protecting
(13:41):
communication and
being willing to
acknowledge when we've, you
know, when we've
caused harm or when we've caused, you know, hurt that's
needing repair. Like, I. I
don't know that I can. I don't know that I can
even think about this
(14:04):
kind of a dynamic outside of
religion. Because
so much of
how I was brought up through religious community
was this desire to be right.
And when it comes to belief
systems, this desire to be right
(14:26):
really bled into my
relationships with other people. So this desire to be
right in how I engaged with other people
made it really difficult to acknowledge wrongdoing.
Right. So it wasn't until I started
to unravel
and deconstruct my
(14:48):
faith systems that I was really able
to
acknowledge and
take responsibility for wrongdoing in my
relationships as well. Right. So
that it became so much easier
to apologize.
(15:09):
It became so much easier to
soften. It became so much easier to.
To reconcile. It became so much easier
to, engage
relationally in friendships, in family
relationships, in every kind of
relationship. When my
(15:29):
rigidity in my
religious thinking
started to soften as
well. And so I just. I'm
curious as to your thoughts about that as well,
because, you know, when
our thinking about rightness
or thinking about
(15:51):
having to be on the
right side of
any sort of dynamic, when that
filters into our relationships, it's
hard to admit that we're wrong in any sense.
So I'm thankful that
I felt like I was
(16:12):
deconstructing earlier,
maybe than I even realized, because
I. I needed that. I
needed to be able to
admit that I was wrong. I needed to be
able to
Acknowledge when I had caused harm or
(16:33):
when I had hurt someone or when I was just flat out
wrong. And there were times when I was.
There were times when it was mine to fix. There were times when I
was the one that missed the mark, and there were times
when I was the one that had to come to a
friend or a family member. And I did
have to do the work of apology and
(16:53):
repair and with someone who didn't owe
me, they didn't owe me that space.
They didn't owe me that open door. And
I'm grateful for the times that I was given that. I'm
grateful for the times that I was
allowed the space to
do the work of
(17:14):
repair. So yeah, I'm
just, I'm curious as to how, how that
filtered into your life in terms of religious community
and
rightness and being able to admit
wrongdoing, all of that.
>> Sarah (17:33):
Sa.
(18:02):
It's so interesting because I think this is a
similar mirror to the way we discussed our different,
experiences with deconstruction and our different
relationships with religion where
rightness was not really the lens
that I experienced religion through.
Like that for me it was really more about,
(18:24):
belonging and not
losing that connection and being so good,
not wanting to be a problem, not
wanting to cause, anyone
any issues. I wanted to make myself so small
and so easy and so uncomplicated and
just to kind of, almost like preemptively
(18:44):
anticipate any problem, issue, need.
So that I would just be the easy
one in every relationship in my life.
And when inevitably that didn't work
all the time, then I had
no skills, no development,
no musculature, as you say, for how to
(19:06):
handle that. I was just like, I
have. It would just spiral me. It's like,
I'm the worst. I have no worth, I have no value.
I've ruined everything. There's no getting
it back. Why would they even want me anymore? Like,
why am I, you know, I just, just 0 to 100 so,
so fast? Because that, like, good girl
(19:28):
perfectionist energy was so strong for
me and that I did inherit from
my religion. But like such a different
side of the same coin too. I mean, I really
couldn't have cared less about if, if I was
right or wrong. I would gladly have said,
oh, right, you're probably right. Like, I probably got that. I probably
missed that. You're right, you know, if it
(19:51):
meant that there didn't have to be a problem in the
relationship. And that doesn't
totally match my I, I do have a really
Strong sense of like right and wrong and, and
what when it comes to like
justice or like this is right, this is wrong.
but I think when it comes to a belief
(20:11):
system or when it comes to
a relationship, I'm much more likely
to back down for the
sake of the relationship, which is not healthy either. Like that's
not, that's codependency, like 101.
I have been through a lot of therapy. I now know that's
(20:32):
true. I'm totally comfortable saying that
I've done my parts work. I continue to
shout out to ifs if you don't know.
But yeah, I think that what I
was handed from the religion that I experienced
made it, made that
(20:53):
a very positive way to be in a
relationship, made that type of approach to a friendship
the way to be. And as long as I
was that way, I was rewarded with belonging, I was rewarded
with connection. I, I, if you're
easy, if you're fun to be around,
who doesn't want to be your friend? Right.
(21:14):
and so when for me,
honestly, a lot of this ties back to what we write about
in Skies. At the beginning of Skies, when we talk about what we
experienced, when we really, it really for me came
down to when it
became this is right, this is wrong.
I can no longer pretend I don't see that
this is wrong and I can no longer not say anything
(21:37):
about it.
>> Corinne (21:38):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (21:38):
That it was another layer of me having to
confront even within my friendships at that time,
am I going to continue to be the easy
friend who's, who's willing to sacrifice
so much of myself in order to be, to
belong? Or now
here I am and I can go this far, no further. And
(22:00):
it's going to cause disruption that could
risk the friendships and did in many, of them,
in many of them, my biggest fears
were realized in the loss of
friendships. And I can look at it now, all these years
later and go in some ways
so necessary. They were in many ways not
(22:21):
healthy, well developed friendships.
And that lies on both parties. I'm not
blaming all, of course. I mean again,
codependent, not healthy in that way. So there wasn't a
well developed healthy friendship.
And yet, you know, it's, it's when
we, we have a great fear realized.
There's that part that's, that protector part
(22:44):
that's like told you so, like I told you this
would happen, if you would have just stayed
small, stayed quiet, stayed easy,
none of this would have happened and you'd still belong and you'd just
be Fine. You know, which is.
It's not necessarily that the protector is trying to lie
to us. Right. It's just that it's literally trying to do its job
(23:05):
and keep us safe. And what it understands safe
as is connection and belonging. And
what's worked before, will keep working for you
and ourselves are the ones
that can recognize reality, current reality, and
say, that's. I hear you. I appreciate
you. Thank you. And let
(23:25):
me, like, bring you up to speed. Like,
we're going somewhere new. And that is
scary. But that's. That's life,
right? That's life. And I think
I so appreciate, in these conversations
that we get to have, that we can
have such different experiences and encounters with.
(23:48):
Even. Even if we're having the conversation around
deconstruction and the different ways we've experienced,
religion in our lives and how
many different connection points
there are, even here we are talking about friendships, and
here's another connection point. This is another thing we've had
to sort of deconstruct. And it's wound its way
even not only into the ways we've created and
(24:10):
sought, out friendships in our adult life, but also in the ways that
we've had to navigate when there's been disruption in
relationships, both past and present
and, you know, future. Because
there will be. And it's not something. It's not
like you and I have had a friendship where we've just floated
through, and it's always been easy, and it's always great. Like
(24:31):
any relationship, it's. It's. The risk is,
can I risk bringing something
hard? Can you risk bringing something hard?
And can we do that with so much love and trust? Because we
know we're so for each other. And
then I think over the years, we've just had so many years of
practice, and it's been so balanced with so many other
(24:52):
beautiful good things that it doesn't feel
like this cosmic, massive
thing that. To be able to discuss
any disruption that comes. And I love what
you said about. Yeah, we did establish early on that.
That language around the story I'm telling myself.
And I think for anyone who's listening
(25:13):
or having similar conversations, I really do.
I think I get curious about, like, what. Even if
you've been in a friendship for years, if you listen
to this episode and you're like, out to lunch with your
friend and you're like, hey, I. What if we just tried introducing this into
our friendship, moving forward, like, it could be
an incredibly helpful tool, and
(25:33):
it's okay if it's not been something that you've been
introduced to until right now. Right. I think
that's. Yeah. there are things that we've brought into our friendship
over the years that. That have only helped
it grow and become more rich and
dynamic and healthy. And, And I'm so grateful
for that. Like, thank goodness. Right.
>> Corinne (26:24):
One of the things that I think we've also released is,
this idea that forgiveness is the
pinnacle.
>> Sarah (26:31):
Right.
>> Corinne (26:32):
So when it comes to our relationship, I know that for me,
I've set that down in a way that I used to hold
so tightly to within religion,
because forgiveness was this idea that
was so transactional. And I know that you and I have
really embraced more of this idea of repair.
>> Sarah (26:50):
And I think that's something that we. I just need to say I'm
interrupting you really quick, but I'm just so happy. I'm so
happy you're talking about this, because I'm like, I can't wait for you
to get into this more. It was. I was going to ask you more about this.
So I'm just like, sitting over here, like, smiling because I'm like,
yes, like, say it, say it. Go,
go, go. Well, okay.
>> Corinne (27:09):
Okay. Because. Okay, if we. If we talk
about this idea of forgiveness, right? We're handed this. In
religion, we're handed this idea
that's really this kind of. This transaction between
us and God, right, Where we ask
God for forgiveness. God supposedly gives us
forgiveness and then some. Whatever we did wrong, it's
(27:30):
done. It's, you know, it's absolved.
We're absolved of it. We never have to think of it again. It's over
and done with. You know, that's a pretty good deal,
honestly. You know, if we ask for forgiveness and it's.
And it's over and done with. Sweet. Right?
But when we then try to
engage in that with each other, human to human, it
(27:52):
doesn't really work the same way. Right?
So I think that, this idea of forgiveness between each other,
it's a nice idea, but
it's not really how our
brains work. It's not really how
we repair harm.
It's not really how we move through
(28:14):
relationship with each other. And
quite frankly, just how we've seen so much
abuse take place
in the communities that we come from. So
I think that, you know, when we. When we see that
used as almost a currency, when we
see it used almost
(28:35):
like absolution without accountability,
when we see that expectation of, like,
forgiveness, granted, it's finished, it's done. The expectation
of no Further questions, you know,
like the expectation that it's never going to be spoken of again
like that. And somehow the fault
of the person who was harmed to never speak of it again,
(28:56):
to be over it, to just wipe this slate
clean. And you know, the
offender is, you know, just granted
full access again and again to the person
that they've harmed. I mean, I just think you and
I, especially as women, we have just seen
the harm that that has caused
(29:16):
so deeply in communities
in relationship.
M.
It's been heartbreaking. So for
me, it's something that
in my deconstruction process,
it's something that I really just had
(29:37):
to admit that I've seen weaponized more
than I've seen it be. Beautiful.
and so it's something I gave myself permission to set down.
I think it's a nice idea, but
I don't think that it's actually been as helpful as it's been
hurtful. And I
(29:59):
think that what has
actually been the more
beautiful and truer practice
has been repair. M.
Forgiveness has seemed
transactional,
whereas repair has seemed like this
active practice
(30:20):
between two people. And
that has seemed like something
that is engaged in
on purpose. It's not
easy. It takes time.
It takes the time it takes.
It's often really
difficult and maybe doesn't. It's
(30:42):
sometimes messy. It doesn't always have a
nice and shiny bow on top. Right.
It often requires a lot of
hard work and maybe some guidance. And you know,
it's not this easy path that
looks the same way. It's not formulaic
and yet it seems to be
(31:03):
more real. So
I don't know, it's not an easy answer,
but yet I feel like it might be
something that's
more true, that we can actually like
grab onto with each
other.
>> Sarah (31:22):
Mm. We. Well, when I hear you say, what.
>> Corinne (31:23):
Do you think about that?
>> Sarah (31:24):
Yeah, I love, I mean, I just love this conversation
so much because I think it's so important and I love what you
touched on about accountability because I think
forgiveness is. I.
I don't know who said this. I kind of feel like Steve said this,
but I don't want to give him credit in case it's not him.
>> Corinne (31:43):
Aw, I see. Sorry Steve.
>> Sarah (31:45):
But forgiveness is a solo sport. That
forgiveness is something that happens internally, that it's really not a
practice, but between two people, it's really something that happens
internally as part of our own
work of moving on. But that
the practice of apology, I
think when you're talking about repair, I think in
(32:05):
the same way that
practice of apology is really. That
comes from that place, I think of respect and
recognizing the ownership, the accountability
of. I caused
disruption, whether it was intentional or
not, I caused something I did
(32:26):
or didn't do caused disruption.
And I feel responsibility
to repair that disruption.
And to me, that's. That's what you're speaking to.
And the repair is like an invitation, because the
repair is where the interaction happens.
It's like, the repair is like a hand extended
(32:46):
and saying, will you. Will you do this
repair work with me? I want to do this work.
And the apology is like,
I own that I caused this, and will you work
with me to repair it? Where I feel like
the transactional, like, I'm sorry. Will
you forgive me? I forgive you.
(33:07):
It's like, where's the
repair? Where's the healing happen? It feels like
you forgive and you forget. You. You move on.
What. What's not true?
>> Corinne (33:18):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (33:18):
It isn't.
>> Corinne (33:19):
How.
>> Sarah (33:19):
It's just not real. It's not real. And
I just think it's such a fresh way to speak on
something that obviously is just very old. It's part of the human
condition. It's. It's just a true part of our. Of
our experience. But
maybe it's. Maybe it's really because we come from these
religious backgrounds or these. We have these
experiences where it's just so woven in.
(33:42):
I hadn't ever really considered
separating out forgiveness
from apology. Like, thinking about them
differently, thinking about them as two different,
like, actions and not part of the same
conversation, and bringing the idea
of repair into that conversation. I just think it's
(34:03):
revolutionary. I really do. I love it so
much. And as. It's something that I feel like I've
learned so much from you, and it's something that has really
transformed the way I approach all, my
relationships, all my friendships. and,
like, I.
>> Corinne (34:18):
Like. I think somebody asking, like, do you forgive me? Is, like, the biggest
red flag. Like. Like. Like,
that's. Like, that's none of your business. Like.
Like, if somebody say more.
>> Sarah (34:29):
Say more.
>> Corinne (34:29):
Like, yeah, like, if somebody's asking, do you forgive me? Like, if
somebody. Like, whether or not somebody is forgiving me is
none of my business. That is like.
Like it's a solo sport. Like, that's true. Like,
that is there. That is within
them. That is not mine to
even ask of them. Whether or not they
(34:50):
forgive me. Like, that is. That
is inappropriate for me to
request that they.
That they give me that
access.
>> Sarah (35:03):
So if.
>> Corinne (35:04):
If I've wronged someone and I'm
asking them, do you forgive me? Like, that's not okay.
>> Sarah (35:10):
Oh my gosh. See that is like, that like
blows my mind. I just feel like from a, from again, this is
me. This is like my Christianity
showing where it's like, oh. And it just speaks to the
entitlement of like, oh, we're entitled to
that forgiveness.
>> Corinne (35:25):
We're entitled to like, how aggressive is that? Do you forgive me? Like,
whoa, settle down.
>> Sarah (35:29):
Like, calm, settle down.
>> Corinne (35:32):
Back up, back up.
>> Sarah (35:34):
Okay, but what it honestly.
>> Corinne (35:36):
Okay, but, but, but, but let's talk about that for a
second. Because the idea
of forgiveness
within religious communities as women,
okay, I feel like, is a,
really activating
concept because
(35:57):
when we are taught within religious communities to
forgive, we are often, it's kind of
like, I feel like it goes hand in hand with being
told not to be bitter. Like if we're upset
about something, we're told that we're bitter. And if
we are not immediately
forgiving, we are called bitter. Right.
So the idea of forgiveness for us, especially
(36:20):
as women within religion and we
are taught to forgive and what that does
is it immediately cuts off our,
sensory for pain. So we are taught
to ignore our feelings, we're taught to ignore
our pain, we're taught to shut down any
fear, shut down our anger, shut
(36:42):
down our instincts, shut down our intuition,
just shut it down and forgive. Well,
first of all, that's not how our fucking brain works. So
it's like completely ignoring the fact that
like it really just isn't
true or accurate, you know, so we're not going
to get into that. But like the idea that we're
(37:02):
ignoring our boundaries, ignoring our
survival instincts, ignoring safety,
ignoring all of that. But
the word ignore is never used.
What word is used? Trust.
Right. We're just going to trust.
So in the name of trusting, which, that's the
(37:24):
spiritualization of it, right? In the name of
trust, we are taught to shut
down everything
that is built into us to keep
us safe. And then we wonder
why abuse runs rampant.
And all types of abuse, not just physical, right?
(37:44):
All types of abuse. So I just
think that as women we don't have
to look very far. All we have to do is
talk to each other to realize
that the idea of forgiveness is
weaponized against us. So
from such a young age, from such
(38:05):
a young age. So I think that for, for me
setting it down, I've
had no desire to pick it back up.
>> Sarah (38:14):
That is so fire.
(38:46):
One of the things that I found
myself practicing as A young mom with my
kids was not
forcing the apology or the
forgiveness. Like, not immediately being like,
apologize to your sister, forgive your
brother, like letting it sit.
(39:07):
And because it's like that so quickly also
becomes. I just, in what you're saying, I'm just thinking like, oh my gosh, like
when you say from a young age, it's like literally
conditioned, since, from, from preschool, from
kindergarten, it's that, say you're sorry, say you're
sorry. and so we're taught to detach from even
feeling any accountability. We don't know what we're saying sorry for. It's
(39:27):
performative from the beginning. So say you forgive that
detachment. And oh my gosh, you're so right.
And that when you talk
about the way that that's used to keep women
detached from their feelings, from their power
really, and how,
even, even this goes back to like the way the body keeps score and
(39:48):
like how it's killing us, it's killing us to not
feel and to not be attached to our,
our rage and our anger and our
emotion when we've been
wronged. Over years, over time. Yeah.
>> Corinne (40:02):
Carson, I'm not going to tell the details of the story
because I don't have her permission, but she actually just
last night brought up a story about
how something from when she was young
that she had done on behalf of her
best friend that was actually in the name
of safety that I made
(40:23):
her apologize to somebody for.
And looking back, I'm
horrified that I made her apologize for
this because she was doing something to keep her best friend safe.
And it was, I'm
so embarrassed for myself. And as
a young mom, I was like, you need to
(40:43):
apologize for that. And she was telling me this story and I was like,
what? I can't believe I did that. And she was like, oh, yeah, you did.
And I was like, oh, I probably did. I probably did.
>> Sarah (40:53):
M. You know.
>> Corinne (40:54):
And she remembers it clear as day.
>> Sarah (40:56):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (40:57):
And I made her apologize for something. And looking
back, I would now
I'm like, good job, good job,
like patting her on the back for it, you know?
>> Sarah (41:09):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (41:09):
And as a young mom, I was just so like,
you know, gotta follow this rule or
go through these steps or, you know.
Mm.
>> Sarah (41:21):
I
>> Corinne (41:21):
Don't know.
>> Sarah (41:21):
No, but I mean, I don't know right there. It's like, that's so
hard, right? Yeah. Did you tell her that? Did
you tell her, like, if I were to do it now, like.
>> Corinne (41:29):
Did you say, oh my gosh. I mean, Yeah,
I think that's part.
>> Sarah (41:33):
Of, like, when we talk about repair.
>> Corinne (41:35):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (41:35):
It's like it's. It's another practice of. It's not the
story I'm telling myself. What it is, is like, let me tell you a better
story. Let me tell you how I do it now. Oh, yeah, we can't
rewrite. We can't fix what we did, but we can cast a vision of,
like, what it would be like now. Like, that's so powerful.
>> Corinne (41:50):
I have so many of those stories.
>> Sarah (41:52):
Oh, me too.
>> Corinne (41:54):
So many.
>> Sarah (41:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's the work and that's the thing. It's like we show
up and we, we get to rewrite it, we get to
retell it, we get to reimagine it and, and not from a place
of, like, gaslighting, you know, like, it's. It's the.
It's. It's all part of the same practice of, of
repair. And then, Then. Then there's the
moving forward, which, is a beautiful part.
>> Corinne (42:18):
Yeah. I mean, she's a junior in
college. I mean, by now, the number
of stories.
>> Sarah (42:24):
I can't believe that.
>> Corinne (42:25):
I can't believe that I thought it was wrong.
>> Sarah (42:28):
I'm like, no, she's not. No, she's not.
>> Corinne (42:31):
I know the girls all. They're all back in town
and, you know, move in weekend,
everybody's back and, you know, they're all getting back
into all the festivities and all the things.
But, yeah, I mean, by now, Sarah,
the number of stories that I have
had to be like, oh, God,
the things I would do differently, like, she
(42:53):
knows by now, like, she knows I
am well versed in apology with my daughter.
>> Sarah (42:59):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (43:00):
And, you know, I mean, I. I feel like it's
so important with our kids to
be able to say,
oh, gosh, I was so wrong. I'm so
sorry. Like, like that's so easy for me now.
And I think, you know, both of my kids know how
easy that is for me to say, you
(43:20):
know, when I've gotten it wrong and just how wrong I've
gotten it. that, you know, we can laugh and cry
pretty easily about those things now.
and I think really,
I've got to a good handful of friends. I
think that I can laugh and cry with
about those things now. You know, I've got some pretty old
(43:40):
friends who have seen me through some pretty
brutal seasons in life where
that, haven't been pretty. And I feel
grateful that some of them are still
around. Gosh, you know who you are. If
you're listening to this shout out to the oldies.
Oldies with the shout out shout out to the OGs who
(44:01):
are still around. I sometimes I don't know why,
but I'm grateful for it. So.
>> Sarah (44:08):
Thanks for being here.
>> Corinne (44:10):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for still being here.
But it's true, right?
>> Sarah (44:15):
True.
>> Corinne (44:16):
That's a true, true.
Miley Cyrus is our patron saint.
She's not sponsoring this. But she should.
>> Sarah (44:24):
She should be. Come talk to us, Miley.
We have ideas. We have big ideas.
>> Corinne (44:29):
Oh goodness.
It's a beautiful thing, the power of apology. You
know, I, I've had some,
I've had some significant moments,
humbling myself in front of some
pretty incredible women who
did not have to give me the time of
(44:50):
day. M. And they did. And I
I have a different musculature
because of them.
>> Sarah (44:58):
Yeah, well, that's the thing. It makes us stronger
too.
>> Corinne (45:01):
It's that it is.
>> Sarah (45:02):
Musculature is the right word for it because it is a breaking down. You
have to go through the vulnerability and the
fear and the pain of having to
say, oh, I got it so wrong and I'm so mortified
or I'm just so devastated, whatever,
and walk through that and then walk through that. Repair
whatever that looks like, and whatever that needs and whatever that
requires and all of that is rebuilding and
(45:25):
creating, creating something stronger and more durable
and more with, with just more ability
to, to be flexible and to adapt
and like the next time it's not as hard. And it's like you said,
talking to about apology with your kids, it's like
the, the practice of it becomes more second nature which is the
gift you're building into them. And, and that is the same I
(45:45):
think in these friendships over time. And yeah,
it's what feels so scary and so hard that
also can make us so much stronger and, and
I think more sure of who we are and
ah, as ourselves and within one another.
>> Corinne (46:01):
Yeah. So for whatever it was that
made me think I had to always be right or that I
wasn't allowed to make mistakes, that I wasn't allowed
to get it wrong. I don't know where I picked that up.
You know, I don't. I wasn't taught that.
You know, I wasn't raised in a family where
I, I was required to be a perfectionist. I, you know, I don't
(46:22):
know. I don't know who who handed that to me. I
can't pinpoint it, but I don't want to pass
that on. Right. And I think that when
we talk about our. When
we talk about In Skies, you know, when we talk about our
lives burning down.
And having to rebuild something from those
ashes or when we talk about the
(46:43):
musculature that we have, I think that
feels so good to acknowledge that. That
it only comes from having
gotten it so wrong. It only comes
from having missed those marks
or made those mistakes or,
you know, having made those wrong decisions or
(47:04):
having, ah, you know,
fumbled our way through having been
broken down and having to figure out how to build
that back up like it's, it's
not been pretty. And I think
that's. I, don't know. It's,
it's, it's why it, it's why it
is so true. Because it's
(47:27):
been such a hard fought
story. So I don't know, I think, you know,
it's easy to. It's easy to talk about
friendship on the one side only because
we can also talk about the
loss and the mistakes made on the other side
too. It's, it's got to be the whole picture. It's got
(47:48):
to be both sides of the coin or, or it doesn't mean
anything, right?
>> Sarah (47:51):
Yep. One without the other isn't as true.
>> Rebeca (48:07):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah
Carter and Corrine shark on the 1C Story
Network. For more information about this and all
of our stories, please visit
just1c.com that's J
u s t o n e c
dot com.
>> Corinne (48:49):
Now that we've covered that,
>> Sarah (48:51):
moving on
>> Singer (48:52):
the 1C story network.
For the love of stories.
For all the match Strikers, this
is spiritual pyro.
>> Corinne (00:26):
Buckle up.
>> Sarah (00:29):
Yes. Friendships so complicated
and layered as we discussed last
week. And I know you
as well as I received just some really
interesting conversation, really insightful
conversation as a result from a few people who reached out
who definitely have had similar experiences to the
ones that we discussed on the last episode. And, and
(00:52):
even in conversations that were ongoing for you and I kind of
jumping into even just more
angles and more layers that are a part of that
conversation when it comes to
friendship, relationship, all those dynamics.
And One of the pieces that we
discussed that I thought was really interesting was
really that part of it where it's like what
(01:14):
happens, what happens when
we are the ones maybe who,
who got it wrong, who ah,
were the ones who were confronted or
who really had to sit with
with an issue that was brought to our attention. Maybe a place
where we said something that was hurtful or we
(01:36):
missed the mark or whatever it is. And I know
I have those, I have those
stories. I know you do too. And we all do.
Right? We're here. Human. It's. It's a piece of,
it's a piece of. Of relationship. It's just.
It's a part of the bigger, bigger picture.
>> Corinne (01:54):
Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, almost
the moment that we finished
our last episode, you know, we.
We pushed stop on that
recording and it was like, oh,
our next, Our next episode has to be the other
side of that conversation. Our next
(02:15):
episode has to be the
other part of that conversation. That is
when we, you know, the situations
where it is our bridge to build,
the times where it is ours to fix.
You know, I feel like that, that piece of the
conversation where for me, you know, I was able
(02:37):
to talk about situations
that weren't mine to fix, that wasn't my bridge to build.
And those, those times are true and right.
It's the both and, and I could
feel the, the other side of that.
The weight of those times in
my own histories where the
(02:58):
honesty and the truth telling is
incomplete without
that peace where it was
mine to fix and it was mine to build. So
I was thinking about how I had. You know, I feel like
every single episode we're like, oh, and we get this
feedback and you know, all the, all these conversations we're
(03:18):
having and all of the messages we're getting and
it is true, we are getting
so much good feedback and so many
so many responses and so many messages. But
it was also really telling
for me to sit across a table from A really old
friend of mine recently, and we were having dinner
(03:39):
together, and it was right after that
episode had aired, and someone
that I've known for, let's see,
going on, I'd say 25 years.
so we've had a lot of friendship over a lot of years. We've
seen each other through a lot of seasons. And she,
you know, we're having dinner and, you know, we're catching up. We haven't seen each
(04:00):
other in a really long time. And she was able
to tell me how that episode landed for her.
And she was sitting there saying, oh, my gosh, this is exactly where
I'm at that episode. This is where it
hit. This is what I'm going through, this is what I'm experiencing.
And it was really actually
so meaningful because I don't expect
(04:21):
everybody that I know to listen to our podcast. Right?
I mean, that's actually just such a treat that someone
that I know is actually, you know, following along and taking
the time and happened to be listening to the most recent
episode. But not only that, but for it to be something
that is so, tangible and so current
and something that's so, true
(04:42):
and resonant for her current daily
life, that was a really special part of our
conversation. So, yes,
there's messages that we're getting, and yes, there are
conversations, that we're having online and through
DMs and through text messages. But then there's also this real
life thread that we're also
(05:03):
experiencing with, you know, people in our daily
lives. And that was a really,
meaningful moment for me to just
recognize that we're all walking these
paths
currently. We're all figuring this out
(05:23):
in our actual real lives.
Right? Like, this isn't just something that we're talking about on a
podcast. In theory. We're not just coming up with a
topic and, you know,
writing out bullet points and thinking, of examples
of things, you know, so that we can just bullshit our way through something.
Like, these are actually things that we're trying to figure out
(05:44):
as women walking through our
relationships in real time with one another,
you and I, you know, as we have our own
friendship. These are things that we navigate together.
These are things that we're navigating in our friendships
outside of each other. These are things that our friends
are navigating in their lives. And it just
(06:04):
was a moment where it just
was a reminder that we're
all just figuring it out.
None of us really know what the hell we're doing. We're
all just People, we're all just
trying to figure this thing out together. And
when we can come together and have these
(06:25):
conversations, honestly, whether it's
hear through these microphones or, you know, through
these podcast platforms or whether it's across a dinner table,
there is something so special about that shared honesty.
So, I don't know, it just felt really, powerful
to be able to share stories in that way.
And so it felt even more powerful to be able to
(06:46):
say the times that we've really
missed that mark, the times that we've really gotten
it wrong and the times that we've had to
choose to be the
one to own that
and to fix, to rebuild,
to choose, repair all of those things that,
(07:08):
are hard, that are humbling,
that are. That take time,
that take the time they take. Right? So I don't know.
I think that's a. It's a good, honest space for us
to balance last week's conversation.
>> Sarah (07:24):
And.
>> Corinne (07:26):
I think I just am glad that we're going to get into that today.
>> Sarah (08:02):
I think the, The. The whole idea
of what. What do you do when you get to
a point in a relationship where there's.
There's a miss, whether that's a
misunderstanding, a miscommunication,
you know, a misalignment, whether there's. There's some kind of
fracture or disruption that
(08:22):
happens and both parties
are then invited into a decision,
and is this something that we're going to figure out and
navigate and work toward,
repairing or rebuilding this
understanding and moving forward? Or is this a type
of disruption that is sort of opening our
(08:43):
eyes to like, oh, this just is sort of. This is the
completion of this relationship and
this is the closure, and then this is the moving on,
in different directions. And not every
time we disagree, does it mean obviously
that that's the end of the friendship? I think that
the lack of maturity in that type of
(09:05):
perspective, obviously
isn't what leads to deep, abiding,
loving connection. so for those
of us who are so hungry for that deep, abiding, loving
connection, the real question becomes, I think, how do
we practice navigating disruption in
our relationships in ways that can
(09:25):
be honoring to us that don't ask us to
abandon ourselves or to, like, regress,
but also are honoring to
the other person, you know, that we're in this relationship,
this friendship with. And I think that's a huge piece
of growing up and into maturity.
I think, as a person too, is this,
(09:49):
how do you do that? And I think a lot of that is Just through practice. And
it's really scary because it's that
vulnerability of like, oh, I don't
know for myself. I'm like, I don't ever want to make a mistake. I
don't ever want to mess up. it's so scary to have to be like,
oh, shit, that's on me. Like,
I, I did that. And now,
(10:09):
now there's this risk of, of,
of disconnection. And so
what do I do? How do I face that? How
do we fix this? and it's back to what you said about
what's mine to fix and what's not mine to
fix. And that can be really hard to know, especially if
it's new territory, if it's something
(10:30):
that hasn't been practiced much, you know, And I
think that's. That's something that we've talked about too, is
just how
it really takes the vulnerability and a courage to
try. In the same way that we talk about
in the last episode, the lone wolf out there
howling and wanting to be found.
(10:50):
The vulnerability and courage of that, of saying, I want to be
found. In a similar way, there's the vulnerability and
courage of saying, I want, I
want to fix this. I want connection, I want
to repair, I want to remain. And
the vulnerability of saying, and I don't know how quite how to
do that. and what comes to mind is what, you know,
(11:11):
we say what you've said so often, and I believe it comes from
Brene Brown. But that, you know, the story that
I'm telling myself. Right, that. That
language has been so incredibly helpful in so many
relationships in my life because it's, it's
almost like, neutralizes the conversation. It almost
invites a third party perspective where it's like,
(11:32):
this isn't you against me, this
is the story that I'm telling myself. And then
I can tell that story in a way that doesn't feel
aggressive or accusing
or disrespectful.
I don't know. It's been incredibly helpful tool for
us. Yeah.
>> Corinne (11:52):
Well, and I think also
what that kind of language
has done for us is it
has given us an
understanding that a relationship, a
friendship specifically, can be
so understood and so important from the
jump that it needs
(12:15):
language at the very
beginning that's agreed upon
so that there are tools and that there is,
that there is an agreement from
the beginning that can be used and
practiced, in safety.
(12:36):
So that when there is something that comes up,
there is already a system
in place to bring
repair and to. And to
practice. and to facilitate
resolution. You know, when that's already in place,
then it's much less scary. You know, when that's not in place
(12:57):
and you don't know how to go about that in a way that both
people understand, then that's really hard to navigate. So
I think, you know, Rene Brown's work
has, I think, you know, when, when we can. We put that in place
early on, so we're like, okay, you know, we already know that our
relationship, especially our creative work together, our
friendship, it's so important that we want to make sure that we protect it from
the beginning. You know, I think it's can be awkward
(13:20):
for people to do that on their own,
but we knew that we wanted to protect what we have
early on, and so we did that for ourselves. We did that for each
other. When what you say, though,
Sarah, about
what we're talking about in terms of, protecting each
other and protecting
(13:41):
communication and
being willing to
acknowledge when we've, you
know, when we've
caused harm or when we've caused, you know, hurt that's
needing repair. Like, I. I
don't know that I can. I don't know that I can
even think about this
(14:04):
kind of a dynamic outside of
religion. Because
so much of
how I was brought up through religious community
was this desire to be right.
And when it comes to belief
systems, this desire to be right
(14:26):
really bled into my
relationships with other people. So this desire to be
right in how I engaged with other people
made it really difficult to acknowledge wrongdoing.
Right. So it wasn't until I started
to unravel
and deconstruct my
(14:48):
faith systems that I was really able
to
acknowledge and
take responsibility for wrongdoing in my
relationships as well. Right. So
that it became so much easier
to apologize.
(15:09):
It became so much easier to
soften. It became so much easier to.
To reconcile. It became so much easier
to, engage
relationally in friendships, in family
relationships, in every kind of
relationship. When my
(15:29):
rigidity in my
religious thinking
started to soften as
well. And so I just. I'm
curious as to your thoughts about that as well,
because, you know, when
our thinking about rightness
or thinking about
(15:51):
having to be on the
right side of
any sort of dynamic, when that
filters into our relationships, it's
hard to admit that we're wrong in any sense.
So I'm thankful that
I felt like I was
(16:12):
deconstructing earlier,
maybe than I even realized, because
I. I needed that. I
needed to be able to
admit that I was wrong. I needed to be
able to
Acknowledge when I had caused harm or
(16:33):
when I had hurt someone or when I was just flat out
wrong. And there were times when I was.
There were times when it was mine to fix. There were times when I
was the one that missed the mark, and there were times
when I was the one that had to come to a
friend or a family member. And I did
have to do the work of apology and
(16:53):
repair and with someone who didn't owe
me, they didn't owe me that space.
They didn't owe me that open door. And
I'm grateful for the times that I was given that. I'm
grateful for the times that I was
allowed the space to
do the work of
(17:14):
repair. So yeah, I'm
just, I'm curious as to how, how that
filtered into your life in terms of religious community
and
rightness and being able to admit
wrongdoing, all of that.
>> Sarah (17:33):
Sa.
(18:02):
It's so interesting because I think this is a
similar mirror to the way we discussed our different,
experiences with deconstruction and our different
relationships with religion where
rightness was not really the lens
that I experienced religion through.
Like that for me it was really more about,
(18:24):
belonging and not
losing that connection and being so good,
not wanting to be a problem, not
wanting to cause, anyone
any issues. I wanted to make myself so small
and so easy and so uncomplicated and
just to kind of, almost like preemptively
(18:44):
anticipate any problem, issue, need.
So that I would just be the easy
one in every relationship in my life.
And when inevitably that didn't work
all the time, then I had
no skills, no development,
no musculature, as you say, for how to
(19:06):
handle that. I was just like, I
have. It would just spiral me. It's like,
I'm the worst. I have no worth, I have no value.
I've ruined everything. There's no getting
it back. Why would they even want me anymore? Like,
why am I, you know, I just, just 0 to 100 so,
so fast? Because that, like, good girl
(19:28):
perfectionist energy was so strong for
me and that I did inherit from
my religion. But like such a different
side of the same coin too. I mean, I really
couldn't have cared less about if, if I was
right or wrong. I would gladly have said,
oh, right, you're probably right. Like, I probably got that. I probably
missed that. You're right, you know, if it
(19:51):
meant that there didn't have to be a problem in the
relationship. And that doesn't
totally match my I, I do have a really
Strong sense of like right and wrong and, and
what when it comes to like
justice or like this is right, this is wrong.
but I think when it comes to a belief
(20:11):
system or when it comes to
a relationship, I'm much more likely
to back down for the
sake of the relationship, which is not healthy either. Like that's
not, that's codependency, like 101.
I have been through a lot of therapy. I now know that's
(20:32):
true. I'm totally comfortable saying that
I've done my parts work. I continue to
shout out to ifs if you don't know.
But yeah, I think that what I
was handed from the religion that I experienced
made it, made that
(20:53):
a very positive way to be in a
relationship, made that type of approach to a friendship
the way to be. And as long as I
was that way, I was rewarded with belonging, I was rewarded
with connection. I, I, if you're
easy, if you're fun to be around,
who doesn't want to be your friend? Right.
(21:14):
and so when for me,
honestly, a lot of this ties back to what we write about
in Skies. At the beginning of Skies, when we talk about what we
experienced, when we really, it really for me came
down to when it
became this is right, this is wrong.
I can no longer pretend I don't see that
this is wrong and I can no longer not say anything
(21:37):
about it.
>> Corinne (21:38):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (21:38):
That it was another layer of me having to
confront even within my friendships at that time,
am I going to continue to be the easy
friend who's, who's willing to sacrifice
so much of myself in order to be, to
belong? Or now
here I am and I can go this far, no further. And
(22:00):
it's going to cause disruption that could
risk the friendships and did in many, of them,
in many of them, my biggest fears
were realized in the loss of
friendships. And I can look at it now, all these years
later and go in some ways
so necessary. They were in many ways not
(22:21):
healthy, well developed friendships.
And that lies on both parties. I'm not
blaming all, of course. I mean again,
codependent, not healthy in that way. So there wasn't a
well developed healthy friendship.
And yet, you know, it's, it's when
we, we have a great fear realized.
There's that part that's, that protector part
(22:44):
that's like told you so, like I told you this
would happen, if you would have just stayed
small, stayed quiet, stayed easy,
none of this would have happened and you'd still belong and you'd just
be Fine. You know, which is.
It's not necessarily that the protector is trying to lie
to us. Right. It's just that it's literally trying to do its job
(23:05):
and keep us safe. And what it understands safe
as is connection and belonging. And
what's worked before, will keep working for you
and ourselves are the ones
that can recognize reality, current reality, and
say, that's. I hear you. I appreciate
you. Thank you. And let
(23:25):
me, like, bring you up to speed. Like,
we're going somewhere new. And that is
scary. But that's. That's life,
right? That's life. And I think
I so appreciate, in these conversations
that we get to have, that we can
have such different experiences and encounters with.
(23:48):
Even. Even if we're having the conversation around
deconstruction and the different ways we've experienced,
religion in our lives and how
many different connection points
there are, even here we are talking about friendships, and
here's another connection point. This is another thing we've had
to sort of deconstruct. And it's wound its way
even not only into the ways we've created and
(24:10):
sought, out friendships in our adult life, but also in the ways that
we've had to navigate when there's been disruption in
relationships, both past and present
and, you know, future. Because
there will be. And it's not something. It's not
like you and I have had a friendship where we've just floated
through, and it's always been easy, and it's always great. Like
(24:31):
any relationship, it's. It's. The risk is,
can I risk bringing something
hard? Can you risk bringing something hard?
And can we do that with so much love and trust? Because we
know we're so for each other. And
then I think over the years, we've just had so many years of
practice, and it's been so balanced with so many other
(24:52):
beautiful good things that it doesn't feel
like this cosmic, massive
thing that. To be able to discuss
any disruption that comes. And I love what
you said about. Yeah, we did establish early on that.
That language around the story I'm telling myself.
And I think for anyone who's listening
(25:13):
or having similar conversations, I really do.
I think I get curious about, like, what. Even if
you've been in a friendship for years, if you listen
to this episode and you're like, out to lunch with your
friend and you're like, hey, I. What if we just tried introducing this into
our friendship, moving forward, like, it could be
an incredibly helpful tool, and
(25:33):
it's okay if it's not been something that you've been
introduced to until right now. Right. I think
that's. Yeah. there are things that we've brought into our friendship
over the years that. That have only helped
it grow and become more rich and
dynamic and healthy. And, And I'm so grateful
for that. Like, thank goodness. Right.
>> Corinne (26:24):
One of the things that I think we've also released is,
this idea that forgiveness is the
pinnacle.
>> Sarah (26:31):
Right.
>> Corinne (26:32):
So when it comes to our relationship, I know that for me,
I've set that down in a way that I used to hold
so tightly to within religion,
because forgiveness was this idea that
was so transactional. And I know that you and I have
really embraced more of this idea of repair.
>> Sarah (26:50):
And I think that's something that we. I just need to say I'm
interrupting you really quick, but I'm just so happy. I'm so
happy you're talking about this, because I'm like, I can't wait for you
to get into this more. It was. I was going to ask you more about this.
So I'm just like, sitting over here, like, smiling because I'm like,
yes, like, say it, say it. Go,
go, go. Well, okay.
>> Corinne (27:09):
Okay. Because. Okay, if we. If we talk
about this idea of forgiveness, right? We're handed this. In
religion, we're handed this idea
that's really this kind of. This transaction between
us and God, right, Where we ask
God for forgiveness. God supposedly gives us
forgiveness and then some. Whatever we did wrong, it's
(27:30):
done. It's, you know, it's absolved.
We're absolved of it. We never have to think of it again. It's over
and done with. You know, that's a pretty good deal,
honestly. You know, if we ask for forgiveness and it's.
And it's over and done with. Sweet. Right?
But when we then try to
engage in that with each other, human to human, it
(27:52):
doesn't really work the same way. Right?
So I think that, this idea of forgiveness between each other,
it's a nice idea, but
it's not really how our
brains work. It's not really how
we repair harm.
It's not really how we move through
(28:14):
relationship with each other. And
quite frankly, just how we've seen so much
abuse take place
in the communities that we come from. So
I think that, you know, when we. When we see that
used as almost a currency, when we
see it used almost
(28:35):
like absolution without accountability,
when we see that expectation of, like,
forgiveness, granted, it's finished, it's done. The expectation
of no Further questions, you know,
like the expectation that it's never going to be spoken of again
like that. And somehow the fault
of the person who was harmed to never speak of it again,
(28:56):
to be over it, to just wipe this slate
clean. And you know, the
offender is, you know, just granted
full access again and again to the person
that they've harmed. I mean, I just think you and
I, especially as women, we have just seen
the harm that that has caused
(29:16):
so deeply in communities
in relationship.
M.
It's been heartbreaking. So for
me, it's something that
in my deconstruction process,
it's something that I really just had
(29:37):
to admit that I've seen weaponized more
than I've seen it be. Beautiful.
and so it's something I gave myself permission to set down.
I think it's a nice idea, but
I don't think that it's actually been as helpful as it's been
hurtful. And I
(29:59):
think that what has
actually been the more
beautiful and truer practice
has been repair. M.
Forgiveness has seemed
transactional,
whereas repair has seemed like this
active practice
(30:20):
between two people. And
that has seemed like something
that is engaged in
on purpose. It's not
easy. It takes time.
It takes the time it takes.
It's often really
difficult and maybe doesn't. It's
(30:42):
sometimes messy. It doesn't always have a
nice and shiny bow on top. Right.
It often requires a lot of
hard work and maybe some guidance. And you know,
it's not this easy path that
looks the same way. It's not formulaic
and yet it seems to be
(31:03):
more real. So
I don't know, it's not an easy answer,
but yet I feel like it might be
something that's
more true, that we can actually like
grab onto with each
other.
>> Sarah (31:22):
Mm. We. Well, when I hear you say, what.
>> Corinne (31:23):
Do you think about that?
>> Sarah (31:24):
Yeah, I love, I mean, I just love this conversation
so much because I think it's so important and I love what you
touched on about accountability because I think
forgiveness is. I.
I don't know who said this. I kind of feel like Steve said this,
but I don't want to give him credit in case it's not him.
>> Corinne (31:43):
Aw, I see. Sorry Steve.
>> Sarah (31:45):
But forgiveness is a solo sport. That
forgiveness is something that happens internally, that it's really not a
practice, but between two people, it's really something that happens
internally as part of our own
work of moving on. But that
the practice of apology, I
think when you're talking about repair, I think in
(32:05):
the same way that
practice of apology is really. That
comes from that place, I think of respect and
recognizing the ownership, the accountability
of. I caused
disruption, whether it was intentional or
not, I caused something I did
(32:26):
or didn't do caused disruption.
And I feel responsibility
to repair that disruption.
And to me, that's. That's what you're speaking to.
And the repair is like an invitation, because the
repair is where the interaction happens.
It's like, the repair is like a hand extended
(32:46):
and saying, will you. Will you do this
repair work with me? I want to do this work.
And the apology is like,
I own that I caused this, and will you work
with me to repair it? Where I feel like
the transactional, like, I'm sorry. Will
you forgive me? I forgive you.
(33:07):
It's like, where's the
repair? Where's the healing happen? It feels like
you forgive and you forget. You. You move on.
What. What's not true?
>> Corinne (33:18):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (33:18):
It isn't.
>> Corinne (33:19):
How.
>> Sarah (33:19):
It's just not real. It's not real. And
I just think it's such a fresh way to speak on
something that obviously is just very old. It's part of the human
condition. It's. It's just a true part of our. Of
our experience. But
maybe it's. Maybe it's really because we come from these
religious backgrounds or these. We have these
experiences where it's just so woven in.
(33:42):
I hadn't ever really considered
separating out forgiveness
from apology. Like, thinking about them
differently, thinking about them as two different,
like, actions and not part of the same
conversation, and bringing the idea
of repair into that conversation. I just think it's
(34:03):
revolutionary. I really do. I love it so
much. And as. It's something that I feel like I've
learned so much from you, and it's something that has really
transformed the way I approach all, my
relationships, all my friendships. and,
like, I.
>> Corinne (34:18):
Like. I think somebody asking, like, do you forgive me? Is, like, the biggest
red flag. Like. Like. Like,
that's. Like, that's none of your business. Like.
Like, if somebody say more.
>> Sarah (34:29):
Say more.
>> Corinne (34:29):
Like, yeah, like, if somebody's asking, do you forgive me? Like, if
somebody. Like, whether or not somebody is forgiving me is
none of my business. That is like.
Like it's a solo sport. Like, that's true. Like,
that is there. That is within
them. That is not mine to
even ask of them. Whether or not they
(34:50):
forgive me. Like, that is. That
is inappropriate for me to
request that they.
That they give me that
access.
>> Sarah (35:03):
So if.
>> Corinne (35:04):
If I've wronged someone and I'm
asking them, do you forgive me? Like, that's not okay.
>> Sarah (35:10):
Oh my gosh. See that is like, that like
blows my mind. I just feel like from a, from again, this is
me. This is like my Christianity
showing where it's like, oh. And it just speaks to the
entitlement of like, oh, we're entitled to
that forgiveness.
>> Corinne (35:25):
We're entitled to like, how aggressive is that? Do you forgive me? Like,
whoa, settle down.
>> Sarah (35:29):
Like, calm, settle down.
>> Corinne (35:32):
Back up, back up.
>> Sarah (35:34):
Okay, but what it honestly.
>> Corinne (35:36):
Okay, but, but, but, but let's talk about that for a
second. Because the idea
of forgiveness
within religious communities as women,
okay, I feel like, is a,
really activating
concept because
(35:57):
when we are taught within religious communities to
forgive, we are often, it's kind of
like, I feel like it goes hand in hand with being
told not to be bitter. Like if we're upset
about something, we're told that we're bitter. And if
we are not immediately
forgiving, we are called bitter. Right.
So the idea of forgiveness for us, especially
(36:20):
as women within religion and we
are taught to forgive and what that does
is it immediately cuts off our,
sensory for pain. So we are taught
to ignore our feelings, we're taught to ignore
our pain, we're taught to shut down any
fear, shut down our anger, shut
(36:42):
down our instincts, shut down our intuition,
just shut it down and forgive. Well,
first of all, that's not how our fucking brain works. So
it's like completely ignoring the fact that
like it really just isn't
true or accurate, you know, so we're not going
to get into that. But like the idea that we're
(37:02):
ignoring our boundaries, ignoring our
survival instincts, ignoring safety,
ignoring all of that. But
the word ignore is never used.
What word is used? Trust.
Right. We're just going to trust.
So in the name of trusting, which, that's the
(37:24):
spiritualization of it, right? In the name of
trust, we are taught to shut
down everything
that is built into us to keep
us safe. And then we wonder
why abuse runs rampant.
And all types of abuse, not just physical, right?
(37:44):
All types of abuse. So I just
think that as women we don't have
to look very far. All we have to do is
talk to each other to realize
that the idea of forgiveness is
weaponized against us. So
from such a young age, from such
(38:05):
a young age. So I think that for, for me
setting it down, I've
had no desire to pick it back up.
>> Sarah (38:14):
That is so fire.
(38:46):
One of the things that I found
myself practicing as A young mom with my
kids was not
forcing the apology or the
forgiveness. Like, not immediately being like,
apologize to your sister, forgive your
brother, like letting it sit.
(39:07):
And because it's like that so quickly also
becomes. I just, in what you're saying, I'm just thinking like, oh my gosh, like
when you say from a young age, it's like literally
conditioned, since, from, from preschool, from
kindergarten, it's that, say you're sorry, say you're
sorry. and so we're taught to detach from even
feeling any accountability. We don't know what we're saying sorry for. It's
(39:27):
performative from the beginning. So say you forgive that
detachment. And oh my gosh, you're so right.
And that when you talk
about the way that that's used to keep women
detached from their feelings, from their power
really, and how,
even, even this goes back to like the way the body keeps score and
(39:48):
like how it's killing us, it's killing us to not
feel and to not be attached to our,
our rage and our anger and our
emotion when we've been
wronged. Over years, over time. Yeah.
>> Corinne (40:02):
Carson, I'm not going to tell the details of the story
because I don't have her permission, but she actually just
last night brought up a story about
how something from when she was young
that she had done on behalf of her
best friend that was actually in the name
of safety that I made
(40:23):
her apologize to somebody for.
And looking back, I'm
horrified that I made her apologize for
this because she was doing something to keep her best friend safe.
And it was, I'm
so embarrassed for myself. And as
a young mom, I was like, you need to
(40:43):
apologize for that. And she was telling me this story and I was like,
what? I can't believe I did that. And she was like, oh, yeah, you did.
And I was like, oh, I probably did. I probably did.
>> Sarah (40:53):
M. You know.
>> Corinne (40:54):
And she remembers it clear as day.
>> Sarah (40:56):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (40:57):
And I made her apologize for something. And looking
back, I would now
I'm like, good job, good job,
like patting her on the back for it, you know?
>> Sarah (41:09):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (41:09):
And as a young mom, I was just so like,
you know, gotta follow this rule or
go through these steps or, you know.
Mm.
>> Sarah (41:21):
I
>> Corinne (41:21):
Don't know.
>> Sarah (41:21):
No, but I mean, I don't know right there. It's like, that's so
hard, right? Yeah. Did you tell her that? Did
you tell her, like, if I were to do it now, like.
>> Corinne (41:29):
Did you say, oh my gosh. I mean, Yeah,
I think that's part.
>> Sarah (41:33):
Of, like, when we talk about repair.
>> Corinne (41:35):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (41:35):
It's like it's. It's another practice of. It's not the
story I'm telling myself. What it is, is like, let me tell you a better
story. Let me tell you how I do it now. Oh, yeah, we can't
rewrite. We can't fix what we did, but we can cast a vision of,
like, what it would be like now. Like, that's so powerful.
>> Corinne (41:50):
I have so many of those stories.
>> Sarah (41:52):
Oh, me too.
>> Corinne (41:54):
So many.
>> Sarah (41:55):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But that's the work and that's the thing. It's like we show
up and we, we get to rewrite it, we get to
retell it, we get to reimagine it and, and not from a place
of, like, gaslighting, you know, like, it's. It's the.
It's. It's all part of the same practice of, of
repair. And then, Then. Then there's the
moving forward, which, is a beautiful part.
>> Corinne (42:18):
Yeah. I mean, she's a junior in
college. I mean, by now, the number
of stories.
>> Sarah (42:24):
I can't believe that.
>> Corinne (42:25):
I can't believe that I thought it was wrong.
>> Sarah (42:28):
I'm like, no, she's not. No, she's not.
>> Corinne (42:31):
I know the girls all. They're all back in town
and, you know, move in weekend,
everybody's back and, you know, they're all getting back
into all the festivities and all the things.
But, yeah, I mean, by now, Sarah,
the number of stories that I have
had to be like, oh, God,
the things I would do differently, like, she
(42:53):
knows by now, like, she knows I
am well versed in apology with my daughter.
>> Sarah (42:59):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (43:00):
And, you know, I mean, I. I feel like it's
so important with our kids to
be able to say,
oh, gosh, I was so wrong. I'm so
sorry. Like, like that's so easy for me now.
And I think, you know, both of my kids know how
easy that is for me to say, you
(43:20):
know, when I've gotten it wrong and just how wrong I've
gotten it. that, you know, we can laugh and cry
pretty easily about those things now.
and I think really,
I've got to a good handful of friends. I
think that I can laugh and cry with
about those things now. You know, I've got some pretty old
(43:40):
friends who have seen me through some pretty
brutal seasons in life where
that, haven't been pretty. And I feel
grateful that some of them are still
around. Gosh, you know who you are. If
you're listening to this shout out to the oldies.
Oldies with the shout out shout out to the OGs who
(44:01):
are still around. I sometimes I don't know why,
but I'm grateful for it. So.
>> Sarah (44:08):
Thanks for being here.
>> Corinne (44:10):
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for still being here.
But it's true, right?
>> Sarah (44:15):
True.
>> Corinne (44:16):
That's a true, true.
Miley Cyrus is our patron saint.
She's not sponsoring this. But she should.
>> Sarah (44:24):
She should be. Come talk to us, Miley.
We have ideas. We have big ideas.
>> Corinne (44:29):
Oh goodness.
It's a beautiful thing, the power of apology. You
know, I, I've had some,
I've had some significant moments,
humbling myself in front of some
pretty incredible women who
did not have to give me the time of
(44:50):
day. M. And they did. And I
I have a different musculature
because of them.
>> Sarah (44:58):
Yeah, well, that's the thing. It makes us stronger
too.
>> Corinne (45:01):
It's that it is.
>> Sarah (45:02):
Musculature is the right word for it because it is a breaking down. You
have to go through the vulnerability and the
fear and the pain of having to
say, oh, I got it so wrong and I'm so mortified
or I'm just so devastated, whatever,
and walk through that and then walk through that. Repair
whatever that looks like, and whatever that needs and whatever that
requires and all of that is rebuilding and
(45:25):
creating, creating something stronger and more durable
and more with, with just more ability
to, to be flexible and to adapt
and like the next time it's not as hard. And it's like you said,
talking to about apology with your kids, it's like
the, the practice of it becomes more second nature which is the
gift you're building into them. And, and that is the same I
(45:45):
think in these friendships over time. And yeah,
it's what feels so scary and so hard that
also can make us so much stronger and, and
I think more sure of who we are and
ah, as ourselves and within one another.
>> Corinne (46:01):
Yeah. So for whatever it was that
made me think I had to always be right or that I
wasn't allowed to make mistakes, that I wasn't allowed
to get it wrong. I don't know where I picked that up.
You know, I don't. I wasn't taught that.
You know, I wasn't raised in a family where
I, I was required to be a perfectionist. I, you know, I don't
(46:22):
know. I don't know who who handed that to me. I
can't pinpoint it, but I don't want to pass
that on. Right. And I think that when
we talk about our. When
we talk about In Skies, you know, when we talk about our
lives burning down.
And having to rebuild something from those
ashes or when we talk about the
(46:43):
musculature that we have, I think that
feels so good to acknowledge that. That
it only comes from having
gotten it so wrong. It only comes
from having missed those marks
or made those mistakes or,
you know, having made those wrong decisions or
(47:04):
having, ah, you know,
fumbled our way through having been
broken down and having to figure out how to build
that back up like it's, it's
not been pretty. And I think
that's. I, don't know. It's,
it's, it's why it, it's why it
is so true. Because it's
(47:27):
been such a hard fought
story. So I don't know, I think, you know,
it's easy to. It's easy to talk about
friendship on the one side only because
we can also talk about the
loss and the mistakes made on the other side
too. It's, it's got to be the whole picture. It's got
(47:48):
to be both sides of the coin or, or it doesn't mean
anything, right?
>> Sarah (47:51):
Yep. One without the other isn't as true.
>> Rebeca (48:07):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah
Carter and Corrine shark on the 1C Story
Network. For more information about this and all
of our stories, please visit
just1c.com that's J
u s t o n e c
dot com.
>> Corinne (48:49):
Now that we've covered that,
>> Sarah (48:51):
moving on
>> Singer (48:52):
the 1C story network.
For the love of stories.
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