S1E2: That Time Our Publisher Broke Up With Us Via a YouTube Video (or, This is How It Works, Part I)
Fast forwarding from the stories shared in Episode 1, we now join Sarah and Corinne at the point in their journeys when they realized they were being inspired to write a book together. The act of doing so ushered in a sense of freedom and return to self unlike anything they'd known since the devastating experiences discussed in the previous episode. Leaders of corrupt systems aren't big fans of having their misdeeds memorialized for all time between the covers of a book, though. Here in Episode 2, Sarah and Corinne share the first part of their publishing experience and how it, too, called Ruin back into their journeys.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Fast forwarding from the stories shared in Episode 1, we now join Sarah and Corinne at the point in their journeys when they realized they were being inspired to write a book together. The act of doing so ushered in a sense of freedom and return to self unlike anything they'd known since the devastating experiences discussed in the previous episode. Leaders of corrupt systems aren't big fans of having their misdeeds memorialized for all time between the covers of a book, though. Here in Episode 2, Sarah and Corinne share the first part of their publishing experience and how it, too, called Ruin back into their journeys.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Ep. 2 – That Time Our Publisher Broke Up With Us Via a YouTube Video (we mean, um, This is How It Works, Part I)
Corinne (00:01):
You'd think the trauma we shared in episode one could be a chapter one. And the rest of this story is about the healing journey afterward, right? That would follow the pattern the movies show us. Act one, heroine suffers major loss or trauma. Act two, heroine learns how to fight. Act three, heroine gets her justice and therefore finds healing. Cue closing music and the credits. Well, if you followed either of us on instagram since about 2022 and saw the announcement of our book, followed by our fade into black and white, you have a clue that it didn't go that way for us. In this episode, we tell you about how we ended up writing a book together, got an agent, even signed a publishing deal, got into the thick of that process, and then lost it all all over again. Welcome to part one of this Is How It Works, also known as the time our publisher broke up with us in a YouTube video.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
Rebeca (00:03):
In our last episode, you heard directly from Sarah and Corrine about the devastating experiences they went through as a result of the internal corruption and harmful actions by leadership at Willow Creek Community Church and The Exodus Road. What you heard was the beginning of what these women call the ruin phase of this journey. And your comments and care have been balm to their souls. Thank you for your presence here, for your kindness on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and everywhere else. Today you are not going to be in the desert with Sarah and Corinne in the immediate aftermath of those ruin phases, though you will definitely hear more about it and the lessons it brought forth in coming episodes. Instead, today we're going to skip ahead. It's a few years later. Sarah and Corrine have done the hard work that you'll hear about in future episodes. And they've realized something. They've come to see that they are being directed to write a book together. Little did they know that this too would have an element of ruin.
Corinne (00:04):
I remember I drove up to the little tiny, cabin in the woods and there was snow on the ground still. And I remember us playing some Harry Styles in the car on the way up. and we sat in your little cabin with the fire lit and we started blending our voices. We started dreaming about what this book could actually look like and what it could feel like and what it could sound like. And we started putting those sentences together, we started putting those chapter titles and outlines, all of the little script scraps of notes that we had been making, and we really started to allow it to take shape.
Sarah (00:05):
It really was the beginning, I think, of taking our work.
Seriously, taking this, the work of this book seriously, in a, in a way that was worthy of carving out the space and time and energy in our everyday lives where it shifted from something I do on the sidelines. You know, this. I don't think we ever really looked at it as like a hobby. It's always just kind of been in our bones. But giving it the respect, giving, ourselves and our work the respect of carving out prime time in our week to devote to. Working on this book, was the beginning of a practice that is so second nature now. Isn't it wild? But at the time felt scandalous. It felt wild. It was like, who do we think we are?
Corinne (00:07):
Yeah. Because we started treating it like a full time job. Like, like this is, this is what we're doing. And, and if it's a full time job, it deserves room and space in our lives, in our schedules. And coming up and doing that at the cabin together, you know, was kind of the beginning of that. We had newly signed with an agent and we're so excited about that. You know, smallest step. But really honestly in publishing it's, it, it's can be the hardest thing. and we had someone who was waiting for a proposal that they could start shopping. And that felt, that felt so massive. That felt like the biggest thing that had ever happened.
Sarah (00:08):
It felt so significant having someone who could tell us, here's the next step you need to take. And then after that step, you're going to take this step and to kind of walk with us through. There's so much value in having an agent to kind of coach us through an experience for the first time of, of ah, trying to get our book under contract with a publisher. yeah. And we put together our proposal. I still remember, I think I, I think I remember it with like ptsd, us trying to summarize the book in a.
Corinne (00:09):
It was painful.
Sarah (00:10):
It was painful. Like we needed to put it all down to like a paragraph. Right. Or like a subtitle. We had to have one sentence that had to represent the entire book. And that was harder than actually writing 100%.
Corinne (00:11):
We could write chapter after chapter, but we could do a subtitle.
Sarah (00:12):
It's like we couldn't do. It was painful. We wrestled every single one of those words together.
Corinne (00:13):
Yeah, we did that summary. Like the smaller the assignment, the harder it was. You know, it was, it felt so impossible.
Sarah (00:14):
and then when she started shopping the proposal, our agent, the process is sort of like, you know, you sort of just send it out into the abyss from our end. Yeah. Waiting around I mean, months can go by, you're not hearing any, there's not updates. And they did. Yeah. And so a lot of time went by, kind of waiting. I mean, we continued to write. We were writing that entire time as we were waiting. But then I want to talk about when we got the contract.
Corinne (00:15):
It was 2022. Yeah, right, yeah. and both of us had taken some really significant steps. I think it's worth noting that taking the step to take our own work seriously also kind of started a bit of a practice of acting on behalf of ourselves in some bigger ways, taking some other dreams that we've always had seriously. And so I just think it's interesting that that year led to me deciding to take a really big trip that I had been dreaming of and saving for. And I went by myself. It was the first time that I'd ever done something that big and gone solo. And I was really, really excited about like, doing that just with myself, for myself, on behalf of myself. So I had taken myself to the island of Moorea in Tahiti and was going to swim with the humpback whales. And so, so incredible. Well, and, and circling back to you being like, this is all, I mean these are like childhood dreams that we've, ah, had, right, the writing of our book, which then, you know, courage begets courage, right? We always say. So it's like, then we started doing these other crazy things that were childhood dreams of ours. So that was, you know, a big one for me. And I remember, I had met a friend who was also a writer and she had published, a book. And I had been sharing with her during that trip, just about this work that we're doing together. And she was really excited for me. And then there's a day where we are sitting out in the middle of the South Pacific on a boat, going out to the whales and I get a message. You and I both got a message at the same time from our agent saying that she thought that she had found a home for our book. And not only could I not believe that I was getting service out in the middle of, nowhere because, you know, I was using my phone as my camera and it's like underwater case. So I'm, in. It's in the underwater case and I see the email blurb pop up, the notification that she thinks that she's got a home for our book. And I just was looking around me. It was just such a surreal moment because even though we weren't signing a contract that day, it was another one of those moments where it was like, oh my gosh, like, this is really happening. We're not just talking about this anymore. We're not just dreaming about this anymore. I'm not just dreaming about swimming with the whales and doing it. I'm not just dreaming about someday publishing a book. It's. It's happening. And it was a. It, it took a minute for that to feel real and for that to feel, for that to really like, sink into my bones. But it was a really special place to get that kind of news. So fast forwarding to your incredible story.
Sarah (00:16):
Well, unbelievable. In a similar way though, I, Hm. Have always been obsessed with Paris. Always been a dream of mine since I was a little girl to go someday. And I was turning 40 and decided that this is the year that I want to wake up when I turn 40 in Paris. All right. So we used up miles and points and I went to Paris with my husband for my 40th, which was dream come true enough. I mean, I was just the epitome of really, in some ways. I think what you'd reference too is this coming back to ourselves and who we've always been. And you know, after having experienced the types of trauma that we had, there was a lot that I feared had been taken from me that I would never get back or that there were parts of me and who I really was that were kind of faded away or gone forever. And so much of the healing process was really a reclaiming and returning of myself. And you know, this trip felt like putting my feet on the ground of my dream that I made happen is returning to self that was true and good and like timeless. Right?
Corinne (00:17):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:18):
So I'm in Paris, it's nighttime. The Eiffel Tower is sparkling and shimmering. She's so pretty. And I'm literally standing under the Eiffel Tower and my phone dings and I go to check my email because I, I mean I'm just like every time at this point we're like, is today the day? Is there news? No, just, constantly, like little surprise party. and there was an email from our agent essentially saying, here's the contract, we're good to go. Oh my gosh. And I just had this out of body moment of like, literally if I were to write this, it would not feel believable. Right.
Corinne (00:19):
Totally.
Sarah (00:20):
Is. How is this my real life right now? it was incredible. It was an incredible experience and really just pushed us into this next gear of like, oh, shit, we're doing this, like, now we're doing this, and this is. This is.
Corinne (00:21):
Yeah, now it's happening.
Sarah (00:22):
What started as this tiny little dream that you and I shared. It started to expand. It was like, then there was an agent. Then it was being shopped. Now there's a publisher. And it just kind of kept feeling like, oh, she's like, growing. It's happening. It's starting to happen.
Rebeca (00:23):
It had happened. Sarah and Corrine, after years of hard mental, psychological, spiritual, familial and emotional work, had come to a victorious moment at last. They'd written a manuscript, made beauty from the ashes, secured a literary agent, even a book deal. Finally, it seemed their lives might be entering a positive phase again. But months into the process, their publisher revealed something that had been going on in the background.
Sarah (00:24):
So that was an incredible experience.
Corinne (00:25):
That was a pivotal moment. They shared with us that for months and months, they had been fielding requests from the organization that I had been affiliated with, to get access to our manuscript. Or they were talking about how they would receive regularly received emails, requesting access to the manuscript. And they kept saying no, or at least they kept, you know, pushing, pushing back and kind of avoiding, maybe avoiding the question. and I remember that was the first time that I started to feel a little nervous knowing that they're trying to get access to our manuscript. And I remember be having to be very clear with our publisher and saying, just for the record, I do not consent to my work being provided to this organization ahead of time. They can read the book at the same time that everybody else can. And that's when our publisher made a point to let us know that they still believed us and that nothing had changed and that they were pushing back against those requests.
Sarah (00:26):
It was really scary because it felt like we. We had gotten our hopes up, we were moving forward, like this was happening. And we were so excited. And it hadn't occurred really to me that. That that's. Nothing's a guarantee. And, there was an element of vulnerability that was brought into the experience in that moment because this had been going on, and we didn't know it was going on. So it kind of felt like this icky. Like, ooh, there's almost been this, like, prowling, like, hunting energy after our work that we were clueless to. And I do feel a lot of gratitude for the effort that our publisher put into protecting us from the fear and anxiety of this sort of looming threat that we were unaware of so that we could continue writing, and sharing, you know our experiences through this work without that burden. And I am grateful for that. You know, that's. That.
Corinne (00:27):
That is same.
Sarah (00:28):
That's a lot.
Corinne (00:29):
So that's. That's no small thing, you know, that's no small thing. I think that the. Really. That the turning point was why they were sharing that with us when they did. And it was because they had received a packet of information from the organization that I had been affiliated with that was an accumulation of information about me. So the organization had sent them a packet specifically designed to create a narrative to discredit anything that I would have to say or anything that I would have to write. And I'll never forget them sharing that information with us. That. I mean, I feel it in my body right now. I can feel it.
Sarah (00:30):
Yeah, Yeah.
Corinne (00:31):
I can feel it, like, rising up. that old anxiety, that old threat response. But I remember them sharing that they had received this packet.
Sarah (00:32):
And when you say packet, we're not talking, like, a couple pages.
Corinne (00:33):
No, we're talking like, 26 exhibits. Yeah. Exhibit A. Exhibit B. Like, legal. I mean, it's legal language on purpose because it was meant to scare.
Sarah (00:34):
Yep.
Corinne (00:35):
and the packet opens with this long letter positioning the organization as the victim and positioning me as this, you know, big, bad villain. that's out to get them. And for me, that's not new. That's not a surprise to me. It's not. That's an old narrative. It's an old tactic. It wasn't surprising. And yet it rolled through me like. Like those first waves did back in 2017. You know, it was, It really activated all of that fear and anxiety, and especially because they didn't send the packet to me. They sent the packet to our publisher.
Sarah (00:36):
Right.
Corinne (00:37):
And the end game of that packet was to let them know that if our book project continued and moved forward, that they would be taking action. So page after page, I mean, I've got it right here. Like, I. I still have this because I had asked for a copy, of course. I'm like, I'd really love to know what.
Sarah (00:38):
What kind of information m. About me. Right.
Corinne (00:39):
yeah. Yeah. I was. I'm like, I'm gonna need a copy of that. So I have it right here. I remember it arrived certified mail at my doorstep, you know, and it's page after page after page about me. Which is honestly kind of funny because I just don't have a lot of skeletons in my closet. So I'm like, what did. What are they. Where did they find. I'm so curious, you know, what is so salacious about me? You know, but it's like all of these, you know, it's. It's photos of me, which is actually kind of creepy.
Sarah (00:40):
So creepy.
Corinne (00:41):
Yeah. It's old social media posts that had long since been archived. which is. Which tells me that they've been gathering this information for quite a while.
Sarah (00:42):
Right, Right.
Corinne (00:43):
actually, I mean, social media posts I'm proud of, you know, archived them just because they weren't relevant anymore in terms of, you know, my current Instagram. But I'm actually stuff I'm still proud of. things about my life before we even were affiliated with their organization. I, mean, just page after page, the open letter that I co authored, which, again, proud of that. So.
Sarah (00:44):
Right.
Corinne (00:45):
Thank you.
Sarah (00:46):
Right.
Corinne (00:47):
and, you know, other. Other. Other parts of. Of my life, stories that I actually, you know, that aren't mine to tell, but damn if I. I sure do wish I could, because they're good ones. so it was a very surreal experience to see myself page after page after page. parts of my life that I'm actually very proud of, but that were being twisted and spun to create a negative narrative, honestly. I think in hopes that our publisher would drop us. I mean, that was the. That was the end. That was the end game. So to receive that on my doorstep, to be walking through that with multiple people in my life with, you know, getting counsel, you know, from necessary sources. It was a sobering experience to see someone working so hard to silence the story that I was writing. And I think that was, That was when our publisher said to us, as a result of this packet, that's when our publisher said to us, people who don't have anything to hide don't work this hard to silence others. And we're like, whoo. That's the truth.
Sarah (00:48):
I mean, it is the truth. It is the truth. It begs the question, what are. What are they so afraid of? And, you know, the attempts. My perspective is that it was an attempt at a character assassination, that it was the smear campaign that. That they were activating toward you, and it was personal. They didn't go after you personally. They went after your professional career. That's a different type of conversation. And it was so hard for me, as your co author, but as your friend, to. To feel almost like my hands are tied. Like there's not. Like this is out of our control. And, our shared dream of publishing this book suddenly feels so vulnerable and almost potentially on the line. Like, is this.
Corinne (00:49):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:50):
Is this going to change anything? How brave are we all going to commit to being? Because now we know this isn't a safe thing to do. And really, how much does telling the truth out loud, like, how far are you willing to go to do that? Right. It asked us some tough questions, about what we wanted and what was worth it and what the cost would be. And I think recognizing that it's threatening to cost us a lot more than we initially anticipated. and not just financially. Right. Just energetically. in all the ways, all that work we'd done to heal, to get to a point where we were reclaiming ourselves and living our lives again, all of that suddenly felt on the line, like, are we gonna go through what. What comes next? If this is where they've escalated to, if they're willing to go this far, what else are they willing to do? And that created a level of anxiety that was just, like, constant from. From that moment on. I think the vulnerability, that feeling of, we don't feel safe, we're feeling watched. And again, that's what bullies do. In my opinion, that was intentional and on, purpose. Right. And so then it begs the question, how far is our publisher willing to go with us now? Like, are they still with us now? yeah.
Corinne (00:51):
Because it's all fun and games. It's all fun and games when you're feeling like you're making a difference and you're going to publish a risky book. But when push comes to shove and the stakes are high and real, I don't know. I think that it did feel like a question that remained to be answered. And, you know that you and I have. There's never been a moment where we haven't weighed the cost. We've watched. We've watched it. We have felt the cost in our own lives at the hands of these stories. We already know exactly how high those stakes are. And that was work that the other people on our team were having to walk through themselves at that point. And, So I don't. I don't think anything felt like a guarantee all of a sudden, no matter how much work we had done, no matter how much we had told the truth, no matter how much we had, gone through the processes that they asked us to go through, all of a sudden, it felt very, very vulnerable and fragile again. And. And you're right. Like, they didn't come. They didn't send that packet to my doorstep trying to silence me. They've already tried that in the past. They sent it to the people they thought they could scare.
Sarah (00:52):
And it turns out it worked.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
Corinne (00:54):
That takes us to August of last year when we had been waiting for our next meeting with our publisher, and waiting and waiting. And it kind of seemed like it was taking a while for us to get that next meeting on the calendar. And that was when we got that email.
Sarah (00:55):
The email that contained the link to a YouTube video.
Corinne (00:56):
Yep, a fucking YouTube video.
Sarah (00:57):
And in this YouTube video is our publisher addressing us.
Corinne (00:58):
Mm,
Sarah (00:59):
He goes on to kind of walk us through this roundabout way of saying that they took it as far as they could take it. They fought the good fight, they still believe us, but they can no longer publish our book. The legal threats have gotten too extreme. That organization came so hard and all of their tactics and effort to silence your story about what happened. It was effective. Over.
Corinne (01:00):
It worked.
Sarah (01:01):
Done. It worked.
Corinne (01:02):
I remember him saying in the YouTube video that our contract was effectively terminated as of the video. We didn't even get the courtesy. He didn't even have the courage to. To meet with us. We didn't even get the courtesy of a meeting. Yep, it was a YouTube video letting us know that they did not have the resources to withstand litigation should that happen, and that they were terminating our contract. And the kicker, if you remember, is that the second that you and I had both, plenty played the video, it disappeared from YouTube.
Sarah (01:03):
It did. It did.
Corinne (01:04):
So we couldn't even play it back and watch it. To be like, wait a second, what just happened? Did that just happen? So we're on that FaceTime call with each other, both of us watching that video.
Sarah (01:05):
I mean, we just sat there in silence. It was. I was stunned. I didn't see a YouTube video coming. Like we knew it was a possibility. It was just part of the risk of the type of book we were writing that the publisher might not be able to take us all the way. Yeah, but I,
Corinne (01:06):
But I mean, honestly, I think that the fear that we were holding was because throughout every round of legal, throughout every edit, throughout every iteration of our manuscript, we were growing tired of always feeling like the bravest ones at the table, that we were having to invite our publisher along with us. Please be brave, you know, was like how we were always feeling.
Sarah (01:07):
It felt so familiar. I'd experienced that sense of abandonment, you know, often during my experiences back in 2018. speaking up for what's right and looking around thinking like, we're all seeing it, right? We're all, we're all, ah, going to call it what it is, right. And recognizing it's not that
00:30:00
simple. And it's really lonely, often really lonely to take on a system that is powerful.
Corinne (01:10):
It has.
Sarah (01:11):
The power, as we know, to destroy, to utterly wreck our lives. And watching that YouTube video, I had just a moment of we're alone again. Yep, here we are. Here we are doing the right thing. Fighting for what's right. Being so brave to put this work out into the world on behalf of ourselves, but also on behalf of, of the truth. Right. On behalf of, of whoever else might fall victim to these systems and the harm caused.
Corinne (01:12):
I think I, I relate to what you're talking about, about feeling activated because there's this, There was this current wave of anxiety and threat that was rolling through my body, realizing that the specific story that I was telling was the reason they were coming for our book. We, really had to hold that with each other because it was that old message of don't be too much. And that was the feeling that was really activated within me is remembering how it felt to have people standing by my side and then to watch them slowly put up their hands, raise their eyebrows and back away. Because it was just all too much. And it's true, it is too much. All of this is too much. Yeah, like that's true, that's accurate, but it is a terrifying feeling to feel like you have someone standing with you and then to watch them back away and say, I'm sorry, this is just too much. that was all too familiar for me. And so for us to be left standing, holding our manuscript after years of, work toward this goal, and to be left alone again. I think we always talk about, we always talk about being with each other. And never, never have I been more grateful for that truth between us. as in that moment where it would have been really easy for me to feel like what I wrote was just too much and it ruined it for us. But I remember you, Sarah, saying to me in that moment when I was really feeling that, most specifically, and I remember you saying, you didn't ruin anything. This is their behavior, this is their action that has taken this from us. And I didn't know I needed to hear that, but I did. In that moment I really needed to hear that. And for us to be with each other and our stories to be woven together, not separate. Like you know, when you said before that this, the invitation or this work was needed to, for us to It needed to be done together. You know, for. Even from the beginning, that was so clear for you. And I think in that final moment when we were being abandoned, I needed to know that this work needed to be done together. That at the end of the day, whatever it was going to be, wherever it was going to go, it was going to be together.
Sarah (01:13):
I love that you named that because I think, so often we absorb and assume a lot of responsibility for other people's behavior.
Corinne (01:14):
Yeah.
Sarah (01:15):
And in so many ways the work of this book was sort of a way to say, no more. No more. We're not going to keep your secrets for you. We're not going to pretend we don't notice that bad behavior. We're not carrying the burden of someone else's wrong choices, harmful decisions, sick systems, corruption. We're not doing that anymore. And I think this, that moment, receiving that YouTube video, which I do love that we can have a sense of humor about it because. Can we just take a minute for how ridiculous that is? Like just for a second.
Corinne (01:16):
It wasn't on my bingo card, not oh my God, broke it up with.
Sarah (01:17):
Via a YouTube video. So I'm just like, it's not okay. I don't appreciate the way it was done and it's so utterly beyond reason that it's ridiculous. So I'm just naming that because what on earth. I think we were able to maintain ourselves. We never once doubted the value of our work. And once we got over the initial shock that just happened, the next question for both of us was what now? What happens now? Just multiple years of work on this manuscript that's completed and ready. And nowhere for it to go. And I remember we'd had a meeting, a follow up meeting with our agent and they were very honest about the fact that this was a problem we were probably going to run into with any other publisher.
Corinne (01:18):
They were telling us the truth that it was going to be difficult to get a manuscript that had been dropped by a previous publisher. It was going to be difficult to get another publisher interested in it. It was going to be difficult with the built in risk that was already known based on the threats that had happened. And I remember you and I talking about how not only did they succeed in taking this dream of ours, but they had succeeded in taking our, current employment and they had succeeded in taking away the opportunity for future employment. When we say it worked, it didn't just work because it, you know, was attempting to silence this specific story. They were removing any opportunity that we could potentially have to even move forward with a different book because our manuscript had been dropped by our current publisher. So there was so much more happening. And when we say this is how it works, when we talk about the systems that are designed to preserve themselves, like this is how it works. So I think the magnitude of what had happened as it, as it started to sink in after that YouTube video, it wasn't just ridiculous that, that we got broken up with by our publisher in a YouTube video as, as insane as that sounds to say, and as much as we like, are able to laugh about it, but it was really, they, they annihilated any sense of future work that we had at that point. So there was a magnitude of it that was sinking in that was, more than I was, more than I even had realized at that point. What was at stake.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
I think anyone who has come up against a power structure like this understands that's the game. The game is not just to silence one thing. The game is removing you. And I think that was what started to sink in, is that we were being removed.
Sarah (01:21):
Well, it was, it was such an example of the way corrupt systems survive. You know, it's this. Oh, now you say this is how it works. It's this. You're watching it play out and it's familiar because we've both watched it play out many times, but the active, ongoing experience of it was so devastating. And I found myself really feeling pretty detached, pretty. The grief was so overwhelming. This feeling of time and again, we keep trying, we keep, we keep trying to, you know, expose this truth. And it's getting buried over and over and over. And that feeling of defeat was so overwhelming for me that I, I had a hard time seeing a path through. And I don't know if it was freeze response or if it's a trauma response. I think it's a combination of those things. but also just feeling absolutely, completely burnt out, feeling unable to feel even at that point as we tried to consider what the hell are we supposed to do now? Like, what are we supposed to do now professionally, but also what's our responsibility to this work that we've spent so much effort creating that we still absolutely believe in and want to be out in the world? What, what are we supposed to do now? And the, that question felt too big for me to consider and I found myself just completely in overwhelm.
Corinne (01:22):
Mm. Yeah. And I was in full fight. Like my trauma response, it was like I had been backed into a corner and was. I mean, my. I think my first response was like, we're gonna make a TikTok series. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. And it's just like, whoa, whoa. Like I was ready to go, you know. And I'm so glad that we gave ourselves a minute to breathe. I think that was, part of our healing, has taught us, you know, that it's okay to take a beat and let it breathe. And that's something that we've said actually throughout the writing of the manuscript was like, let's just let it breathe and she'll tell us what she wants to be right? And so we were like, okay, we know we can trust that process. That process has never failed us, so let's do that. And meanwhile, I'm like storyboarding TikToks, you know, and we gotta get the story out. You know, this is part of the story. And I think that's true in some senses, that this just became part of the story. It's not just what happened in 2017, 2018. It's not just my story. It's not just your story. It's, it's now. This is part of the story. And I'm, so glad for us that we knew that we needed a little bit of space on social media. We needed a little bit of space, in our own creative life. And so last August, we cleared our Instagrams, we went black and white, no explanation, took our bios down and knew that people were going to start asking when they started seeing the emails come in about our book being either refunded or no longer available. And we knew those questions were going to come and we decided that we would answer those when we were ready.
Sarah (01:23):
I'm so glad that we did not remain in those trauma responses that we allowed ourselves to feel activated and then we allowed ourselves to work through it. And even just the reminder that we could take our time and that the path tends to show itself and trusting that, you know,
Corinne (01:24):
I'm remembering us, Sarah, coming to the point where we were then asking ourselves, okay, like, what are our choices? We have, we have choices. You know, we were engaging in consent. We were, talking about our options and. Because really, you know, as we've learned, consent is having options. So we knew that we had a choice. we always ask ourselves, okay, what's the alternative? We could, we could walk away. We could start on book two and maybe book two is now book one. Oh, we were talking about putting it out ourselves. Should we self publish?
Sarah (01:25):
Absolutely. I, I think we, we allowed ourselves to be open to any possibility, and really consider, Consider them all. And agreed to move forward with what would feel the most. Feel the most in alignment with us and our well being. One thing that we understood was that the bear had been poked. So I remember we talked about so many options, but one thing we kept coming back to was we probably need to find some legal help and I'd remember that we knew someone who knew an attorney who worked in that field. So I'd reached out to set up a zoom.
Corinne (01:26):
We didn't know where that was going to lead. But I remember we knew one thing. We knew that what was intended to harm us, we were going to use to heal us.
Rebeca (01:27):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah Carter and Corinne Shark on the 1C Story Network. For more information about this and all of our stories, please visit just one c. Com that's j-u s t o n e c dot com.
Sarah (01:28):
I need to go take a nap.
The 1C Story Network. For the love of stories.
Ep. 2 – That Time Our Publisher Broke Up With Us Via a YouTube Video (we mean, um, This is How It Works, Part I)
Corinne (00:01):
You'd think the trauma we shared in episode one could be a chapter one. And the rest of this story is about the healing journey afterward, right? That would follow the pattern the movies show us. Act one, heroine suffers major loss or trauma. Act two, heroine learns how to fight. Act three, heroine gets her justice and therefore finds healing. Cue closing music and the credits. Well, if you followed either of us on instagram since about 2022 and saw the announcement of our book, followed by our fade into black and white, you have a clue that it didn't go that way for us. In this episode, we tell you about how we ended up writing a book together, got an agent, even signed a publishing deal, got into the thick of that process, and then lost it all all over again. Welcome to part one of this Is How It Works, also known as the time our publisher broke up with us in a YouTube video.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
Rebeca (00:03):
In our last episode, you heard directly from Sarah and Corrine about the devastating experiences they went through as a result of the internal corruption and harmful actions by leadership at Willow Creek Community Church and The Exodus Road. What you heard was the beginning of what these women call the ruin phase of this journey. And your comments and care have been balm to their souls. Thank you for your presence here, for your kindness on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and everywhere else. Today you are not going to be in the desert with Sarah and Corinne in the immediate aftermath of those ruin phases, though you will definitely hear more about it and the lessons it brought forth in coming episodes. Instead, today we're going to skip ahead. It's a few years later. Sarah and Corrine have done the hard work that you'll hear about in future episodes. And they've realized something. They've come to see that they are being directed to write a book together. Little did they know that this too would have an element of ruin.
Corinne (00:04):
I remember I drove up to the little tiny, cabin in the woods and there was snow on the ground still. And I remember us playing some Harry Styles in the car on the way up. and we sat in your little cabin with the fire lit and we started blending our voices. We started dreaming about what this book could actually look like and what it could feel like and what it could sound like. And we started putting those sentences together, we started putting those chapter titles and outlines, all of the little script scraps of notes that we had been making, and we really started to allow it to take shape.
Sarah (00:05):
It really was the beginning, I think, of taking our work.
Seriously, taking this, the work of this book seriously, in a, in a way that was worthy of carving out the space and time and energy in our everyday lives where it shifted from something I do on the sidelines. You know, this. I don't think we ever really looked at it as like a hobby. It's always just kind of been in our bones. But giving it the respect, giving, ourselves and our work the respect of carving out prime time in our week to devote to. Working on this book, was the beginning of a practice that is so second nature now. Isn't it wild? But at the time felt scandalous. It felt wild. It was like, who do we think we are?
Corinne (00:07):
Yeah. Because we started treating it like a full time job. Like, like this is, this is what we're doing. And, and if it's a full time job, it deserves room and space in our lives, in our schedules. And coming up and doing that at the cabin together, you know, was kind of the beginning of that. We had newly signed with an agent and we're so excited about that. You know, smallest step. But really honestly in publishing it's, it, it's can be the hardest thing. and we had someone who was waiting for a proposal that they could start shopping. And that felt, that felt so massive. That felt like the biggest thing that had ever happened.
Sarah (00:08):
It felt so significant having someone who could tell us, here's the next step you need to take. And then after that step, you're going to take this step and to kind of walk with us through. There's so much value in having an agent to kind of coach us through an experience for the first time of, of ah, trying to get our book under contract with a publisher. yeah. And we put together our proposal. I still remember, I think I, I think I remember it with like ptsd, us trying to summarize the book in a.
Corinne (00:09):
It was painful.
Sarah (00:10):
It was painful. Like we needed to put it all down to like a paragraph. Right. Or like a subtitle. We had to have one sentence that had to represent the entire book. And that was harder than actually writing 100%.
Corinne (00:11):
We could write chapter after chapter, but we could do a subtitle.
Sarah (00:12):
It's like we couldn't do. It was painful. We wrestled every single one of those words together.
Corinne (00:13):
Yeah, we did that summary. Like the smaller the assignment, the harder it was. You know, it was, it felt so impossible.
Sarah (00:14):
and then when she started shopping the proposal, our agent, the process is sort of like, you know, you sort of just send it out into the abyss from our end. Yeah. Waiting around I mean, months can go by, you're not hearing any, there's not updates. And they did. Yeah. And so a lot of time went by, kind of waiting. I mean, we continued to write. We were writing that entire time as we were waiting. But then I want to talk about when we got the contract.
Corinne (00:15):
It was 2022. Yeah, right, yeah. and both of us had taken some really significant steps. I think it's worth noting that taking the step to take our own work seriously also kind of started a bit of a practice of acting on behalf of ourselves in some bigger ways, taking some other dreams that we've always had seriously. And so I just think it's interesting that that year led to me deciding to take a really big trip that I had been dreaming of and saving for. And I went by myself. It was the first time that I'd ever done something that big and gone solo. And I was really, really excited about like, doing that just with myself, for myself, on behalf of myself. So I had taken myself to the island of Moorea in Tahiti and was going to swim with the humpback whales. And so, so incredible. Well, and, and circling back to you being like, this is all, I mean these are like childhood dreams that we've, ah, had, right, the writing of our book, which then, you know, courage begets courage, right? We always say. So it's like, then we started doing these other crazy things that were childhood dreams of ours. So that was, you know, a big one for me. And I remember, I had met a friend who was also a writer and she had published, a book. And I had been sharing with her during that trip, just about this work that we're doing together. And she was really excited for me. And then there's a day where we are sitting out in the middle of the South Pacific on a boat, going out to the whales and I get a message. You and I both got a message at the same time from our agent saying that she thought that she had found a home for our book. And not only could I not believe that I was getting service out in the middle of, nowhere because, you know, I was using my phone as my camera and it's like underwater case. So I'm, in. It's in the underwater case and I see the email blurb pop up, the notification that she thinks that she's got a home for our book. And I just was looking around me. It was just such a surreal moment because even though we weren't signing a contract that day, it was another one of those moments where it was like, oh my gosh, like, this is really happening. We're not just talking about this anymore. We're not just dreaming about this anymore. I'm not just dreaming about swimming with the whales and doing it. I'm not just dreaming about someday publishing a book. It's. It's happening. And it was a. It, it took a minute for that to feel real and for that to feel, for that to really like, sink into my bones. But it was a really special place to get that kind of news. So fast forwarding to your incredible story.
Sarah (00:16):
Well, unbelievable. In a similar way though, I, Hm. Have always been obsessed with Paris. Always been a dream of mine since I was a little girl to go someday. And I was turning 40 and decided that this is the year that I want to wake up when I turn 40 in Paris. All right. So we used up miles and points and I went to Paris with my husband for my 40th, which was dream come true enough. I mean, I was just the epitome of really, in some ways. I think what you'd reference too is this coming back to ourselves and who we've always been. And you know, after having experienced the types of trauma that we had, there was a lot that I feared had been taken from me that I would never get back or that there were parts of me and who I really was that were kind of faded away or gone forever. And so much of the healing process was really a reclaiming and returning of myself. And you know, this trip felt like putting my feet on the ground of my dream that I made happen is returning to self that was true and good and like timeless. Right?
Corinne (00:17):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:18):
So I'm in Paris, it's nighttime. The Eiffel Tower is sparkling and shimmering. She's so pretty. And I'm literally standing under the Eiffel Tower and my phone dings and I go to check my email because I, I mean I'm just like every time at this point we're like, is today the day? Is there news? No, just, constantly, like little surprise party. and there was an email from our agent essentially saying, here's the contract, we're good to go. Oh my gosh. And I just had this out of body moment of like, literally if I were to write this, it would not feel believable. Right.
Corinne (00:19):
Totally.
Sarah (00:20):
Is. How is this my real life right now? it was incredible. It was an incredible experience and really just pushed us into this next gear of like, oh, shit, we're doing this, like, now we're doing this, and this is. This is.
Corinne (00:21):
Yeah, now it's happening.
Sarah (00:22):
What started as this tiny little dream that you and I shared. It started to expand. It was like, then there was an agent. Then it was being shopped. Now there's a publisher. And it just kind of kept feeling like, oh, she's like, growing. It's happening. It's starting to happen.
Rebeca (00:23):
It had happened. Sarah and Corrine, after years of hard mental, psychological, spiritual, familial and emotional work, had come to a victorious moment at last. They'd written a manuscript, made beauty from the ashes, secured a literary agent, even a book deal. Finally, it seemed their lives might be entering a positive phase again. But months into the process, their publisher revealed something that had been going on in the background.
Sarah (00:24):
So that was an incredible experience.
Corinne (00:25):
That was a pivotal moment. They shared with us that for months and months, they had been fielding requests from the organization that I had been affiliated with, to get access to our manuscript. Or they were talking about how they would receive regularly received emails, requesting access to the manuscript. And they kept saying no, or at least they kept, you know, pushing, pushing back and kind of avoiding, maybe avoiding the question. and I remember that was the first time that I started to feel a little nervous knowing that they're trying to get access to our manuscript. And I remember be having to be very clear with our publisher and saying, just for the record, I do not consent to my work being provided to this organization ahead of time. They can read the book at the same time that everybody else can. And that's when our publisher made a point to let us know that they still believed us and that nothing had changed and that they were pushing back against those requests.
Sarah (00:26):
It was really scary because it felt like we. We had gotten our hopes up, we were moving forward, like this was happening. And we were so excited. And it hadn't occurred really to me that. That that's. Nothing's a guarantee. And, there was an element of vulnerability that was brought into the experience in that moment because this had been going on, and we didn't know it was going on. So it kind of felt like this icky. Like, ooh, there's almost been this, like, prowling, like, hunting energy after our work that we were clueless to. And I do feel a lot of gratitude for the effort that our publisher put into protecting us from the fear and anxiety of this sort of looming threat that we were unaware of so that we could continue writing, and sharing, you know our experiences through this work without that burden. And I am grateful for that. You know, that's. That.
Corinne (00:27):
That is same.
Sarah (00:28):
That's a lot.
Corinne (00:29):
So that's. That's no small thing, you know, that's no small thing. I think that the. Really. That the turning point was why they were sharing that with us when they did. And it was because they had received a packet of information from the organization that I had been affiliated with that was an accumulation of information about me. So the organization had sent them a packet specifically designed to create a narrative to discredit anything that I would have to say or anything that I would have to write. And I'll never forget them sharing that information with us. That. I mean, I feel it in my body right now. I can feel it.
Sarah (00:30):
Yeah, Yeah.
Corinne (00:31):
I can feel it, like, rising up. that old anxiety, that old threat response. But I remember them sharing that they had received this packet.
Sarah (00:32):
And when you say packet, we're not talking, like, a couple pages.
Corinne (00:33):
No, we're talking like, 26 exhibits. Yeah. Exhibit A. Exhibit B. Like, legal. I mean, it's legal language on purpose because it was meant to scare.
Sarah (00:34):
Yep.
Corinne (00:35):
and the packet opens with this long letter positioning the organization as the victim and positioning me as this, you know, big, bad villain. that's out to get them. And for me, that's not new. That's not a surprise to me. It's not. That's an old narrative. It's an old tactic. It wasn't surprising. And yet it rolled through me like. Like those first waves did back in 2017. You know, it was, It really activated all of that fear and anxiety, and especially because they didn't send the packet to me. They sent the packet to our publisher.
Sarah (00:36):
Right.
Corinne (00:37):
And the end game of that packet was to let them know that if our book project continued and moved forward, that they would be taking action. So page after page, I mean, I've got it right here. Like, I. I still have this because I had asked for a copy, of course. I'm like, I'd really love to know what.
Sarah (00:38):
What kind of information m. About me. Right.
Corinne (00:39):
yeah. Yeah. I was. I'm like, I'm gonna need a copy of that. So I have it right here. I remember it arrived certified mail at my doorstep, you know, and it's page after page after page about me. Which is honestly kind of funny because I just don't have a lot of skeletons in my closet. So I'm like, what did. What are they. Where did they find. I'm so curious, you know, what is so salacious about me? You know, but it's like all of these, you know, it's. It's photos of me, which is actually kind of creepy.
Sarah (00:40):
So creepy.
Corinne (00:41):
Yeah. It's old social media posts that had long since been archived. which is. Which tells me that they've been gathering this information for quite a while.
Sarah (00:42):
Right, Right.
Corinne (00:43):
actually, I mean, social media posts I'm proud of, you know, archived them just because they weren't relevant anymore in terms of, you know, my current Instagram. But I'm actually stuff I'm still proud of. things about my life before we even were affiliated with their organization. I, mean, just page after page, the open letter that I co authored, which, again, proud of that. So.
Sarah (00:44):
Right.
Corinne (00:45):
Thank you.
Sarah (00:46):
Right.
Corinne (00:47):
and, you know, other. Other. Other parts of. Of my life, stories that I actually, you know, that aren't mine to tell, but damn if I. I sure do wish I could, because they're good ones. so it was a very surreal experience to see myself page after page after page. parts of my life that I'm actually very proud of, but that were being twisted and spun to create a negative narrative, honestly. I think in hopes that our publisher would drop us. I mean, that was the. That was the end. That was the end game. So to receive that on my doorstep, to be walking through that with multiple people in my life with, you know, getting counsel, you know, from necessary sources. It was a sobering experience to see someone working so hard to silence the story that I was writing. And I think that was, That was when our publisher said to us, as a result of this packet, that's when our publisher said to us, people who don't have anything to hide don't work this hard to silence others. And we're like, whoo. That's the truth.
Sarah (00:48):
I mean, it is the truth. It is the truth. It begs the question, what are. What are they so afraid of? And, you know, the attempts. My perspective is that it was an attempt at a character assassination, that it was the smear campaign that. That they were activating toward you, and it was personal. They didn't go after you personally. They went after your professional career. That's a different type of conversation. And it was so hard for me, as your co author, but as your friend, to. To feel almost like my hands are tied. Like there's not. Like this is out of our control. And, our shared dream of publishing this book suddenly feels so vulnerable and almost potentially on the line. Like, is this.
Corinne (00:49):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:50):
Is this going to change anything? How brave are we all going to commit to being? Because now we know this isn't a safe thing to do. And really, how much does telling the truth out loud, like, how far are you willing to go to do that? Right. It asked us some tough questions, about what we wanted and what was worth it and what the cost would be. And I think recognizing that it's threatening to cost us a lot more than we initially anticipated. and not just financially. Right. Just energetically. in all the ways, all that work we'd done to heal, to get to a point where we were reclaiming ourselves and living our lives again, all of that suddenly felt on the line, like, are we gonna go through what. What comes next? If this is where they've escalated to, if they're willing to go this far, what else are they willing to do? And that created a level of anxiety that was just, like, constant from. From that moment on. I think the vulnerability, that feeling of, we don't feel safe, we're feeling watched. And again, that's what bullies do. In my opinion, that was intentional and on, purpose. Right. And so then it begs the question, how far is our publisher willing to go with us now? Like, are they still with us now? yeah.
Corinne (00:51):
Because it's all fun and games. It's all fun and games when you're feeling like you're making a difference and you're going to publish a risky book. But when push comes to shove and the stakes are high and real, I don't know. I think that it did feel like a question that remained to be answered. And, you know that you and I have. There's never been a moment where we haven't weighed the cost. We've watched. We've watched it. We have felt the cost in our own lives at the hands of these stories. We already know exactly how high those stakes are. And that was work that the other people on our team were having to walk through themselves at that point. And, So I don't. I don't think anything felt like a guarantee all of a sudden, no matter how much work we had done, no matter how much we had told the truth, no matter how much we had, gone through the processes that they asked us to go through, all of a sudden, it felt very, very vulnerable and fragile again. And. And you're right. Like, they didn't come. They didn't send that packet to my doorstep trying to silence me. They've already tried that in the past. They sent it to the people they thought they could scare.
Sarah (00:52):
And it turns out it worked.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
Corinne (00:54):
That takes us to August of last year when we had been waiting for our next meeting with our publisher, and waiting and waiting. And it kind of seemed like it was taking a while for us to get that next meeting on the calendar. And that was when we got that email.
Sarah (00:55):
The email that contained the link to a YouTube video.
Corinne (00:56):
Yep, a fucking YouTube video.
Sarah (00:57):
And in this YouTube video is our publisher addressing us.
Corinne (00:58):
Mm,
Sarah (00:59):
He goes on to kind of walk us through this roundabout way of saying that they took it as far as they could take it. They fought the good fight, they still believe us, but they can no longer publish our book. The legal threats have gotten too extreme. That organization came so hard and all of their tactics and effort to silence your story about what happened. It was effective. Over.
Corinne (01:00):
It worked.
Sarah (01:01):
Done. It worked.
Corinne (01:02):
I remember him saying in the YouTube video that our contract was effectively terminated as of the video. We didn't even get the courtesy. He didn't even have the courage to. To meet with us. We didn't even get the courtesy of a meeting. Yep, it was a YouTube video letting us know that they did not have the resources to withstand litigation should that happen, and that they were terminating our contract. And the kicker, if you remember, is that the second that you and I had both, plenty played the video, it disappeared from YouTube.
Sarah (01:03):
It did. It did.
Corinne (01:04):
So we couldn't even play it back and watch it. To be like, wait a second, what just happened? Did that just happen? So we're on that FaceTime call with each other, both of us watching that video.
Sarah (01:05):
I mean, we just sat there in silence. It was. I was stunned. I didn't see a YouTube video coming. Like we knew it was a possibility. It was just part of the risk of the type of book we were writing that the publisher might not be able to take us all the way. Yeah, but I,
Corinne (01:06):
But I mean, honestly, I think that the fear that we were holding was because throughout every round of legal, throughout every edit, throughout every iteration of our manuscript, we were growing tired of always feeling like the bravest ones at the table, that we were having to invite our publisher along with us. Please be brave, you know, was like how we were always feeling.
Sarah (01:07):
It felt so familiar. I'd experienced that sense of abandonment, you know, often during my experiences back in 2018. speaking up for what's right and looking around thinking like, we're all seeing it, right? We're all, we're all, ah, going to call it what it is, right. And recognizing it's not that
00:30:00
simple. And it's really lonely, often really lonely to take on a system that is powerful.
Corinne (01:10):
It has.
Sarah (01:11):
The power, as we know, to destroy, to utterly wreck our lives. And watching that YouTube video, I had just a moment of we're alone again. Yep, here we are. Here we are doing the right thing. Fighting for what's right. Being so brave to put this work out into the world on behalf of ourselves, but also on behalf of, of the truth. Right. On behalf of, of whoever else might fall victim to these systems and the harm caused.
Corinne (01:12):
I think I, I relate to what you're talking about, about feeling activated because there's this, There was this current wave of anxiety and threat that was rolling through my body, realizing that the specific story that I was telling was the reason they were coming for our book. We, really had to hold that with each other because it was that old message of don't be too much. And that was the feeling that was really activated within me is remembering how it felt to have people standing by my side and then to watch them slowly put up their hands, raise their eyebrows and back away. Because it was just all too much. And it's true, it is too much. All of this is too much. Yeah, like that's true, that's accurate, but it is a terrifying feeling to feel like you have someone standing with you and then to watch them back away and say, I'm sorry, this is just too much. that was all too familiar for me. And so for us to be left standing, holding our manuscript after years of, work toward this goal, and to be left alone again. I think we always talk about, we always talk about being with each other. And never, never have I been more grateful for that truth between us. as in that moment where it would have been really easy for me to feel like what I wrote was just too much and it ruined it for us. But I remember you, Sarah, saying to me in that moment when I was really feeling that, most specifically, and I remember you saying, you didn't ruin anything. This is their behavior, this is their action that has taken this from us. And I didn't know I needed to hear that, but I did. In that moment I really needed to hear that. And for us to be with each other and our stories to be woven together, not separate. Like you know, when you said before that this, the invitation or this work was needed to, for us to It needed to be done together. You know, for. Even from the beginning, that was so clear for you. And I think in that final moment when we were being abandoned, I needed to know that this work needed to be done together. That at the end of the day, whatever it was going to be, wherever it was going to go, it was going to be together.
Sarah (01:13):
I love that you named that because I think, so often we absorb and assume a lot of responsibility for other people's behavior.
Corinne (01:14):
Yeah.
Sarah (01:15):
And in so many ways the work of this book was sort of a way to say, no more. No more. We're not going to keep your secrets for you. We're not going to pretend we don't notice that bad behavior. We're not carrying the burden of someone else's wrong choices, harmful decisions, sick systems, corruption. We're not doing that anymore. And I think this, that moment, receiving that YouTube video, which I do love that we can have a sense of humor about it because. Can we just take a minute for how ridiculous that is? Like just for a second.
Corinne (01:16):
It wasn't on my bingo card, not oh my God, broke it up with.
Sarah (01:17):
Via a YouTube video. So I'm just like, it's not okay. I don't appreciate the way it was done and it's so utterly beyond reason that it's ridiculous. So I'm just naming that because what on earth. I think we were able to maintain ourselves. We never once doubted the value of our work. And once we got over the initial shock that just happened, the next question for both of us was what now? What happens now? Just multiple years of work on this manuscript that's completed and ready. And nowhere for it to go. And I remember we'd had a meeting, a follow up meeting with our agent and they were very honest about the fact that this was a problem we were probably going to run into with any other publisher.
Corinne (01:18):
They were telling us the truth that it was going to be difficult to get a manuscript that had been dropped by a previous publisher. It was going to be difficult to get another publisher interested in it. It was going to be difficult with the built in risk that was already known based on the threats that had happened. And I remember you and I talking about how not only did they succeed in taking this dream of ours, but they had succeeded in taking our, current employment and they had succeeded in taking away the opportunity for future employment. When we say it worked, it didn't just work because it, you know, was attempting to silence this specific story. They were removing any opportunity that we could potentially have to even move forward with a different book because our manuscript had been dropped by our current publisher. So there was so much more happening. And when we say this is how it works, when we talk about the systems that are designed to preserve themselves, like this is how it works. So I think the magnitude of what had happened as it, as it started to sink in after that YouTube video, it wasn't just ridiculous that, that we got broken up with by our publisher in a YouTube video as, as insane as that sounds to say, and as much as we like, are able to laugh about it, but it was really, they, they annihilated any sense of future work that we had at that point. So there was a magnitude of it that was sinking in that was, more than I was, more than I even had realized at that point. What was at stake.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
I think anyone who has come up against a power structure like this understands that's the game. The game is not just to silence one thing. The game is removing you. And I think that was what started to sink in, is that we were being removed.
Sarah (01:21):
Well, it was, it was such an example of the way corrupt systems survive. You know, it's this. Oh, now you say this is how it works. It's this. You're watching it play out and it's familiar because we've both watched it play out many times, but the active, ongoing experience of it was so devastating. And I found myself really feeling pretty detached, pretty. The grief was so overwhelming. This feeling of time and again, we keep trying, we keep, we keep trying to, you know, expose this truth. And it's getting buried over and over and over. And that feeling of defeat was so overwhelming for me that I, I had a hard time seeing a path through. And I don't know if it was freeze response or if it's a trauma response. I think it's a combination of those things. but also just feeling absolutely, completely burnt out, feeling unable to feel even at that point as we tried to consider what the hell are we supposed to do now? Like, what are we supposed to do now professionally, but also what's our responsibility to this work that we've spent so much effort creating that we still absolutely believe in and want to be out in the world? What, what are we supposed to do now? And the, that question felt too big for me to consider and I found myself just completely in overwhelm.
Corinne (01:22):
Mm. Yeah. And I was in full fight. Like my trauma response, it was like I had been backed into a corner and was. I mean, my. I think my first response was like, we're gonna make a TikTok series. We're gonna, you know, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that. And it's just like, whoa, whoa. Like I was ready to go, you know. And I'm so glad that we gave ourselves a minute to breathe. I think that was, part of our healing, has taught us, you know, that it's okay to take a beat and let it breathe. And that's something that we've said actually throughout the writing of the manuscript was like, let's just let it breathe and she'll tell us what she wants to be right? And so we were like, okay, we know we can trust that process. That process has never failed us, so let's do that. And meanwhile, I'm like storyboarding TikToks, you know, and we gotta get the story out. You know, this is part of the story. And I think that's true in some senses, that this just became part of the story. It's not just what happened in 2017, 2018. It's not just my story. It's not just your story. It's, it's now. This is part of the story. And I'm, so glad for us that we knew that we needed a little bit of space on social media. We needed a little bit of space, in our own creative life. And so last August, we cleared our Instagrams, we went black and white, no explanation, took our bios down and knew that people were going to start asking when they started seeing the emails come in about our book being either refunded or no longer available. And we knew those questions were going to come and we decided that we would answer those when we were ready.
Sarah (01:23):
I'm so glad that we did not remain in those trauma responses that we allowed ourselves to feel activated and then we allowed ourselves to work through it. And even just the reminder that we could take our time and that the path tends to show itself and trusting that, you know,
Corinne (01:24):
I'm remembering us, Sarah, coming to the point where we were then asking ourselves, okay, like, what are our choices? We have, we have choices. You know, we were engaging in consent. We were, talking about our options and. Because really, you know, as we've learned, consent is having options. So we knew that we had a choice. we always ask ourselves, okay, what's the alternative? We could, we could walk away. We could start on book two and maybe book two is now book one. Oh, we were talking about putting it out ourselves. Should we self publish?
Sarah (01:25):
Absolutely. I, I think we, we allowed ourselves to be open to any possibility, and really consider, Consider them all. And agreed to move forward with what would feel the most. Feel the most in alignment with us and our well being. One thing that we understood was that the bear had been poked. So I remember we talked about so many options, but one thing we kept coming back to was we probably need to find some legal help and I'd remember that we knew someone who knew an attorney who worked in that field. So I'd reached out to set up a zoom.
Corinne (01:26):
We didn't know where that was going to lead. But I remember we knew one thing. We knew that what was intended to harm us, we were going to use to heal us.
Rebeca (01:27):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah Carter and Corinne Shark on the 1C Story Network. For more information about this and all of our stories, please visit just one c. Com that's j-u s t o n e c dot com.
Sarah (01:28):
I need to go take a nap.
The 1C Story Network. For the love of stories.
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