May 25, 2025 • 40 mins
S1E4: The Damn Yellow Notebook
Healing isn’t a grand finale — it’s a thousand tiny rebellions.
This week, Sarah and Corinne share the fires they lit along the way: voice memos and therapy sessions, a yellow notebook full of unfiltered truth, and the forgotten joy of playing again after years of survival mode.
This isn’t a blueprint. It’s a conversation around the fire — tender, true, sometimes messy, and full of warmth. If you’re somewhere in the middle of your own healing process, they’re right there with you.
Strike a match, settle in, and join them around the fire.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Healing isn’t a grand finale — it’s a thousand tiny rebellions.
This week, Sarah and Corinne share the fires they lit along the way: voice memos and therapy sessions, a yellow notebook full of unfiltered truth, and the forgotten joy of playing again after years of survival mode.
This isn’t a blueprint. It’s a conversation around the fire — tender, true, sometimes messy, and full of warmth. If you’re somewhere in the middle of your own healing process, they’re right there with you.
Strike a match, settle in, and join them around the fire.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Episode 4 – That Damned Yellow Notebook
Sarah (00:01):
For all the match Strikers.
Corinne (00:02):
This is Spiritual Pyro. Okay, no, but let's. Let's. Let's talk about how many conversations we are seeing and hearing and participating in where women are feeling a freedom and a permission to talk about what they want, what they desire, what they dream about, what they need, and in ways that feel really current and relevant and timeless. And we wrote about our own journeys into want and need and dreaming. We wrote about that years back when we first started our manuscript. And we had always hoped that the things that we would be writing about would still feel relevant by the time our book flew out into the world. And I feel like that feels true right now. It feels like I'm seeing so many conversations, I'm hearing from so many women about connecting to themselves, returning to themselves in a way that leads them into their wants and their needs and their desires, whether that's spiritual or emotional or physical or material, like, all the permission for all of it, and that it all belongs. So that feels like, you know, you and I and our respective therapeutic journeys, like, that's a. It's a touchstone for us, and I hope a conversation that we get to continue with the women that we're in community with.
Sarah (00:03):
It's so true. And I wonder, you know, how much of that is because of the trauma that we experienced that almost made therapy, I'll speak for myself, inevitable. There was. There was no way I could just sort of muscle my way through, power myself, through the healing that was required. I needed help. Which is hard to admit. It's hard to admit that on some level, but in the same way that I think it's hard to admit that we want things. and I think especially for women, it's harder to admit that we want things. And especially women who've come out of or are still within religious systems of some kind of. And I think that's very intentionally designed that way. It's on purpose that we learn how to be so detached from what we want and how we feel, what we need. Being able to voice that, being able to be proactive enough to actually. It's an intimidating process, I think, to find a new therapist, too. You don't just suddenly have a fantastic therapist, and sometimes it takes a few before you find someone that really, you connect with and they connect with you and you feel safe and it works. so even just to take those steps on behalf of ourselves, to seek that out, that kind of support, I think says a lot, just about, how committed we both were in our Own ways to healing, to not letting what happened to us be our story forever.
Corinne (00:04):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:05):
Yeah.
Corinne (00:06):
Ah. I think there's so many roadblocks to getting the help that we need. Whether it's, you know, most therapists aren't, you know, don't take insurance, or, you know, if you do find a good therapist, can you afford it? Can you squeeze it into your budget? You know, especially in a time of trauma when those things might not be as secure as they once were. And you know, for me, I mean, I remember driving across town, I drove like, literally my appointments, like Gina's office was like 50, 55 minute drive, you know, and. But once I found that person, and I remember her, so generously, giving me a reduced rate just because of the extenuating circumstances, I wouldn't have, I don't know if I would have pushed through, if I would have had to go through five different people to find a good match, or if I had to pay $300 an hour or like, I don't know if I could have done that, you know. So I think that therapy is, I think it's more and more accessible than it's ever been. And at the same time, you know, a lot of us are just trying to figure out our regular family budget, you know, much less an additional, thing like therapy. So it can feel out of reach too, which is just part of it. It's all, it's all a very, it's a significant act on behalf of ourselves, one that isn't always available. But I also think too that it's just so interesting that we think we go to therapy for one thing, right? I mean, we both knew exactly why we were going to therapy back in 2018. It was very clear what we needed help with, very clear what we needed to process, what we needed support for.
00:05:00
And I mean, you and I have talked about this, but I went into therapy thinking I was going to be working through one specific thing. And of course, because this is how it works, therapy and all of those processes just bled into so many other areas of my life, which is a little unnerving. I mean, when you know you've got something that you're working through and that's enough, but then to actually know, you walk in thinking you're going to deal with one thing and it ends up being about so many other things, there's a lot of what Gina would say, untangling to be done. So, therapy for me was really just untangling this really big knot all of these things that were enmeshed, all of these things that were overlapping and tangled up with each other, and.
Sarah (00:09):
It.
Corinne (00:10):
Was no small thing.
Sarah (00:11):
No small thing. I think that's so true. Which I think also is. That can feel so intimidating because it's. It's asking for a vulnerability that's out of our control in some ways. I mean, we always have control, and it's certain. You consent all those things.
Corinne (00:12):
Consent.
Sarah (00:13):
There's. There's an element of vulnerability in opening yourself up to. You don't really know what you're going to find. You know, like you said, you go in for one thing, and then the untangling. I was going to say unraveling. Same, you know, is. Is that. Well, we don't really know how far this is going to go or where it's going to take us or what we're going to find. And that's kind of terrifying, you know?
Corinne (00:14):
Absolutely.
Sarah (00:15):
but one of the places that it took both of us in our own individual journeys is into this conversation around want and need and desire. And I think the way that that's manifested, we touch on certain points. I love the way that you write about specifically one element that Gina brought into your life that was a bit of a love hate. And so I'd love to hear a little bit more about that if you feel comfortable sharing.
Corinne (00:16):
I will never forget sitting across from her and her handing me this yellow composition notebook, you know, like the ones that you have in high school. Well, at least we did back in the day when when everybody pens and paper.
Sarah (00:17):
Yeah.
Corinne (00:18):
and she told me that she wanted me to write down right there. She wanted me to start writing down a list of things that I wanted, things that I needed, and things that I dreamed about. When she gave me the instruction to write the word want at the top of the first page, it felt cruel because I was sitting in her office with no home, no car, hardly any money, no job, no place to call, my own, nothing. You know, I mean, we had sold most of our belongings before moving overseas and came home so abruptly that we didn't have a plan in place. So the fact that I was even able to sit in her office was a miracle. But I sat there with nothing, and she was asking me to write down what I want. It was. It felt impossible. It felt absolutely impossible. And then she told me to write the word need at the top of the next page. And I burst into tears because I was like, the list is too long. Like, I need everything. And she was like, write it Down. I was like, the littlest things. I need the littlest things. And she's like, write it down. And then she told me to write the word dream at the top of the third page. And I was pissed by this point. I was like, what do you mean, dream? Like, I used up all my dreams. Like, I tried everything I could think of. I went as far as I could go. I took my faith as far as I could take it. What do you mean, dream? Like, I'm just trying to get from day to day. So this practice that she wanted me to participate in, felt. I mean, it was, It was a visceral reaction inside my body. I didn't want it. I threw the notebook down on the table. She was basically looking, like. Looking at me, like, okay, take a breath. And I remember her saying, you know, when we got through that session, and I had come around to the idea that maybe. Maybe I could allow myself to want. Maybe I could allow myself to say out loud and to write down with the pen to the page the things that I need, maybe
00:10:00
if I could allow myself to dream again, which is my nature, always has been, maybe, If. Maybe if I could allow myself to do those things to. To be embodied in that way, maybe I could return to myself. Maybe I could find myself again. The things that had felt dormant, the. The hope that felt lost. Maybe I could find that again. And I remember her saying at the end of that session that she would hold joy for me until I was able to hold it again for myself.
Sarah (00:21):
Wow.
Corinne (00:22):
And that was a profound moment. She was just. She was just gonna hold out joy for me until I could hold it for myself. So I took that damn yellow notebook home, and I was so pissed about it, but I started. I just started and I started kind of with, like, the biggest, most audacious thing I could think of. It was the only way I could go is the only way I could begin was just, you know, jumping in headfirst. And so I did, and I wrote down the biggest things I could dream of and the littlest things that I could want or need and everything in between. I hated every single minute of it until. Until I didn't. Until I started to remember who I was.
Sarah (00:23):
That's incredible. How long do you. If you were to. I don't know, take a guess, how long do you think that process took? Just from the time you first wrote down want, need, dream started filling it in. Was this like, a few months? Is this a practice that you continued for a long time? Years. Is this a Couple weeks. Like, what. What was that like for you?
Corinne (00:24):
It's still hard. I still do it. It's part of me now. It's part of how I look back, and it's part of how I look forward. So I still have those little wants and needs and dreams that I write down, and they're not always in the damn yellow notebook. you know, that's part of my archive. Sometimes they're in my notes app. Sometimes they're in a text message to you. Sometimes they're in, you know, they're on a post it note on my mirrors. You know, they find their way and weave their way into lots of different spaces in my life now. But it's a practice. And all three of those things get to have their moment. All three of those things belong. The wants, the needs, the dreams, all of it.
Sarah (00:25):
Yeah. So.
Corinne (00:26):
Yeah. But it's still hard today. I find myself sometimes having moments where I'm like, oof. Hard to admit, hard to allow. And I have to practice giving myself permission again and again.
Sarah (00:27):
I just think that's. It's so profound to think about, you know, even the. The hope that Gina was able to hold for you when you couldn't access it yourself. And you are such a naturally hopeful person that to imagine that you had gotten to a point where you couldn't reach out and name those wants and those needs and those dreams. and it just makes me wonder, like, I'm curious, from your perspective, how would you, like, what's the difference between want, needs, and a dream? How would you say? Those are different?Corinne
00:15:00
Corinne (00:29):
their way in the stars, you know, like, those things were.
What filled my lungs and helped me sit up taller in those moments when my posture was so hunched over and concave. So the need, you know, the need was more things that was. Was hard to admit. Like, yeah, like, after living for two years in the subtropics, like, I needed new underwear and it was hard to allow myself to buy it. You know, like, things like that where you're just kind of like, oh, yeah. It's not necessarily something that you really want to write down on a list. It's not really something that you want to admit is difficult for yourself. Those basic needs that were even so difficult. But I think one of the things that became really beautiful was the feeling I would get on either of those three lists. And crossing things off, it wasn't like a task. It was like a little altar. It was a little ritual. It became sacred to look at the list and be like, okay, today when we go to Target, we're going to hit that 5 for 25 bin. And then to cross it off the list and be like, yep, I know, honey, I know. I would put my. That's when I started the kind of the practice of putting my hand over my chest and being like, I know, honey, I know. Like, this is hard. It's hard, and we're going to do it anyway. And nobody in this store has any idea the sacred moment that is happening right now at the 5 for 25 bin.
Sarah (00:31):
Right?
Corinne (00:32):
Who knew? Yeah.
Sarah (00:33):
It's the way that this process, this practice almost left, like, little breadcrumbs that you followed back to yourself. And in that process of, like, you mentioned crossing things off the list, it almost. When you talk about empowering and embodiment, it's that pathway back that you created for yourself. I mean, you. You designated the list. You were the one who crossed those things off your list. And the. I don't know, just kind of the audacity to believe that you are worthy not only of having, like, your needs met m But also the dignity of being able to buy yourself flowers. So I'm going to Miley Cyrus style, like, to be Able to buy these things for you or, like when, you know, when you, It's a joy of even just like, freshly washed sheets. When you said pillowcases, I'm like, oh, that feeling when, like, everything is clean and fresh from the dryer and you're just like, I am a princess. I'm going to bed like a princess. You know, it's just the dignity of that, the kindness of that, and to.
Corinne (00:34):
Believe you're worth that, whether it's on the heels of trauma or whether it's just being a mom and your constant focus is providing for everyone else, or whether it's just being a woman in the world, having to struggle to believe that you're worth your own investment, whether that's time or money or energy, you know. And, Sarah, I mean, Barbara really challenged you with that when you were working in your. In your sessions with her. She really challenged you. I would. I would love for you to speak to that.
Sarah (00:35):
Yeah. Well, I think it's also so true in that. That one of the things that I. I had been so detached from my physical self, my. My physical world, as almost it was part of my trauma response was survival mode, which was just don't feel anything. and. And kind of just power through and. And be there for everyone else. And in a lot of ways, I was avoiding my own connection to myself in response that way. So in the slow returning to myself that, you know, unfolded, across so many desert trails over the first, you know, 18 months or so of moving back to Arizona back in2018. you know, one of the things that did not easily come back to me was the. The ability to really answer the question. I remember sitting in a session with Barbara, my therapist. And, and this was during COVID by the way, so I hadn't met Barbara. We just did zoom sessions, which was really interesting. I actually think. Side note, as an introvert, being able to be in my own space and sort of have my own environment experience allowed me to, I think, open up a lot faster than I would have if I was driving to an office and sitting in a waiting room and sitting across from another client and then going, you know, just. The whole. Whole experience is just really different. And I just think that's interesting because there's so many ways to access care.
Corinne (00:36):
Right?
Sarah (00:37):
There's so many ways to access that kind of help and support. And for me, that was a new one and it was a forced one. Every was Covid. Nobody was meeting in person, really. but I'm Actually, really glad that it worked that way. And it was a couple years before I actually met her in person. And it was a really fantastic moment.
00:20:00
It's so surreal. You're like, oh, my gosh, you're a real person. You're real. but I'll never forget the session, with her where, you know, she'd been so patiently walking with me through my own journey of really detachment from myself and my actual life. And as I started to kind of come back to myself, there was this kind of glaring gap when it came to my ability to. To really do anything that wasn't the benefit of someone else or wasn't for a specific need it didn't have. It would. It would be. I mean, I would use words like, that's so frivolous. That's so selfish. How. I mean, again, the audacity. Like, m. I don't need it, so I'm fine, you know, and the less things I needed, the. The less vulnerable I had to be. And coming out of such a traumatic experience, it was really scary to think about letting my life be big enough that I got to take up space in it, too.
Corinne (00:40):
Sam.
Sarah (00:41):
Yeah, which is, again, that's a bigger conversation that I hope we circle back to, whether it's in this episode or a future one. Just about. Why is it so damn hard to take up space in our own life? It's that scene in the Holiday where, Oh, I forget who it was. Kate Winslet. I think she's like, I should be the main character in my own life, you know, like the leading lady in my own life. That's so true. How often we're living our life as a supporting cast member.
Corinne (00:42):
Yeah, but. But think about that. I mean, really, that's. That's part of how the system that we were handed works, you know? I mean, we were conditioned within high control religion to where that's how you get the jewels in your crown. I mean, that's a, That's the Proverbs 31, woman. Right? Like, that's what we were handed. We were handed the idea that the less you need, the less you want, the less space you take up. the more you pick up your cross, the more you deny yourself. That's the goal. Like, that's who we were supposed to aspire to be and shit. Like, you give us a goal, and we're gonna, like, knock it out of the park, right? So we were, like, professionals at denying ourselves. So it's no wonder that we were detached from our bodies. It's no wonder I threw that damn yellow notebook across there. Like that was the exact opposite of everything that we had known. And that's why the unravel, unraveling got so messy was because we weren't just unraveling the trauma that we had experienced, we were then unraveling the faith foundations that undergirded the whole damn thing.
Sarah (00:43):
Yeah. Within the faith system and outside of it, even just culturally, I mean, just again, the messaging we grew up, we grew up with through our childhood, through our, you know, adolescent years as women, it's, it's everywhere, that messaging that we, in so many different ways that were supposed to be so small and so good. And so Barbara asked me this question that just threw me on my heels. She said, and it sounds so simple, I'm embarrassed to even say it. but she's like, what do you do for fun? Like, what do you do for play? What is play for you? And m. I, I remember I just kind of sat there like blank, totally, completely had no answer for her. And I, I had almost an like out of body moment where I was almost like observing myself and going like, Feels like something a person should be able to answer pretty easily, right? Like that's, that feels like something. I'm surprised that I, that I have absolutely nothing to say. And I kept trying to think about things, but everything that I, that I brought up was related in some way to benefiting the greater good. That's the family or a friend or you know, just in general. It was, it was, I had only allowed myself the, the joy of play to the extent that it benefited someone else. It's how, it's how I justified what felt indulgent or it felt, selfish. Yeah.
Corinne (00:44):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:45):
so, you know, I was like, well, maybe we should, maybe we should like explore that a little bit. Like, almost like gold. Barbara, that's it, that's, that's one of those points you like. Yeah. Crossroads. You're never going to be the same once you hit one of those moments, I think. And then, you know, it really, it became this question that I, I had to answer for myself. I wanted to know the answer to that question
00:25:00
and I wanted to know why, why I didn't know the answer to that question. So when, when I refer to the selfish. First of all, you have to picture, that scene in Schitt's Creek where Dave and Alexis are talking about whose turn it is to take a selfish. Because every time that's what it became for me was like I Get the selfish. It's my turn for the selfish. You got the last selfish. And really it was sort of this like way to kind of challenge myself to reframe the word as being negative. Like, ooh, always, the negative connotation. You're so selfish. That's so selfish. And really kind of just asking myself the question like, what if it's. What if it's not a bad thing to be selfish? What if that. What if we've been calling it that. But what it really is is like self care or self love. Like that whole idea of taking up space is who told you that? That. That's selfish. Right. It was kind of that question, when did that become the way it is? And so, I mean there are different, different ways that I tried to practice it. My commitment was just to try to take at least one selfish. Do one selfish a month. and the first one that I did was actually I used up some of our family's hotel points and went and stayed at a hotel just, just 20 minutes away, you know, just by myself. And it was hard enough to make the decision to like use the points like the family hotel points felt selfish and. But I knew if I try to figure this out and even just start this journey, this process in the four walls of this home, I'm going to be thinking about laundry. I'm going to think about, I should be vacuuming. I should be. I've got to go do this. I've got to go. There's no way, there's no room, there's no space to even consider myself within this home. Because I had spent so many years training myself and everyone else to think about my m. Me in a certain way. So I didn't even know. So for me it was really important to get some space just so that I could ask the question without having any other background noise going on in my head. And it was stupidly hard. It was ridiculously hard. I like paced the hotel room. I felt so guilty. I mean should was so loud in my head. I should be doing this, I should be doing that. Oh, it was like, I should be working on edits. I should be working on the new thing. I should be. I should be. This call, I should do, you know, so many things that I was shocked at how difficult it was for me to actually relax and you know, just be. and part of that was coming out of again all this stress and trauma that we'd experienced. My body was in hyper alert mode. It didn't know how to relax. and it was this really on purpose practice of no, we're going to sit here, we're going to take up the space and no, you can't go home early. You got to stay here for the full 24 hours, baby. Like you are, you're here. This is your selfish. And it really set a precedent for me that, you know, it's, it's interesting, looking back and talking about that very first experience of selfish now because that, that practice has become so integrated over the years where I'm able to access that without needing so much space. I've built that in that practice into my life. But at the time it was impossibly hard, and embarrassed. I remember feeling embarrassed. Like I'm embarrassed that this is so hard. I feel shame. Like it was just such a wake up call. Like, whoa, how did we get here? I thought I was this independent woman who was super self aware and you know, it's like something as simple as play took me out, you know, another time I, you know, I grew up on a horse ranch in Arizona. Grew up riding horses. We live in the Midwest now. And at the time, you know, we really. I didn't have any interaction or involvement with, with horses anymore. And it's always been like my first love. And there's always, there's been this sort of, had been for years, this sort of separation from like, it was like I wasn't allowed to feel that kind of joy anymore or I didn't want to get my hopes up almost or get attached to something I couldn't have. It was like too much goodness. And I remember one of my selfishness was looking up a barn nearby and driving myself to the barn and just, just inquiring it. And Karine, I was like, my hands were like shaking. I remember walking up to the barn, the, you know, like front desk, in the ranch house and knowing like I'm asking, I'm going to ask them about, you know, horseback riding lessons for adults and like what their programs are. And I was like, it was, I almost chickened out and I, you know, I almost didn't do it was so nervous just to take up that kind of space for myself. And I remember walking out and the gal that had helped me was so sweet.
00:30:00
She's like, well, if you want to just walk around, you can, you can stay as long as you want. And I just like walked from stall to stall and the smells and the sounds and the little fuzzy horse noses and just, it was such a gift to myself and it was like 10 minutes down the road, and I could have done any other time. And it's. It's so wild how we. Myself, I'll say, it was. It was like I was keeping myself from. From that kind of play, that kind of joy, that kind of happiness, and, I don't know, the act of choosing that we're worthy of that kind of joy and happiness, choosing to believe that that doesn't make us selfish, that it doesn't make us indulgent, that we're allowed to be complex, and we're allowed to do more than just scrape by with the bare minimum. it was revolutionary for me, and it's a practice that I continue to this day. I take my selfishness, in all kinds of ways. And now it's become so second nature. And, you know, one of the things I think I'm most. Most glad about in that is the way that I have rewired the way that I function within my family. So that. That's good not only for me, but that's good for my husband, that's good for my daughter. It's good for my son. Right.
Corinne (00:50):
But it's.
Sarah (00:51):
It's. It's still. I'm still centering myself in that. Which is not selfish in this. In this example. Right? It's not. And so it's still hard sometimes. You know, I relate to what you're saying about. It's not like one day you wake up and you're like, ah, I'm cured. Everything is easy now. Like, it's still hard. but I know what I'm working with, you know, like, it's sort of that, Like you're learning a new language, and you sort of figure out, like, okay, I know what's going on here.
Corinne (00:52):
You know, it's. It's musculature, right? Like, when we always talk about, we. Like, we have the musculature, but sometimes it. There's certain parts of that that have to get rebuilt. Those muscles we haven't used in a really long time that have atrophied, and then we have to work really hard and diligently to, like, build back that strength. I'm just picturing you in that ranch house with a little quiver in your voice, asking about. Just asking about the horses, asking about lessons. Like, allowing yourself to want something is. I feel like it's so fragile, it's so vulnerable, because it's. Once you let it out of the cage, you can't get it back in. Once you admit you want something, once you Admit that something is. Feels like hope or feels like yourself or feels like joy. Oh, my gosh. It's so, You feel so exposed, right? And I. I always think about the phrase, you know, I don't want to get my hopes up. And it's like, nobody says that unless their hopes are already up. Like, you don't. You don't. You're not aware of hope unless your hopes are already up and you're feeling really exposed or fragile about that, right? So it's like, with want, once we admit what we want, then it's like, oh, man. Like, the risk of disappointment feels so great. Like, what if you can't afford it? Or what if you don't have time? Or what if. What if, what if? Right? Like, what if whatever it is that you most fear is going to be the reason that you can't have something or do something or become something? Our hopes are already up. And so you walk in that ranch house. I mean, you write about that. You write about your girlhood with horses. I, love how you write about it in Palomino in the book. And I hope that, I hope that anyone who's listening to this episode has a chance to read that, because you take us to that place in your girlhood so vividly that, like, I know I have a very clear picture of you walking into that ranch house that day. Because m. Of it.
Sarah (00:53):
Wow.
Corinne (00:54):
So I love that M. I'm thinking about Barbara and that question that still lingers with you. And I'm thinking about the question that Gina asked me where she was, like, who would you even be if everything didn't have to be so hard? I burst into tears. I burst into tears, basically, for everything Regina would say to me.
Sarah (00:55):
Yeah, same, same.
Corinne (00:56):
But the idea, like, who would you even be if everything didn't have to be so hard? And that question was on the heels of unraveling so much of my martyrdom, so much of the victim mentality that I had taken on and put on top, put on my own shoulders through religion. This. It's okay. I didn't want it anyway. It's okay. I don't need it anyway. You know, I'll sacrifice. I'll. You know, I'll do whatever the hard thing is. You know, that idea that gets so rewarded had woven itself so deeply into my ideas of who I was or what I could want in life that when she asked me that, who would you even be if everything didn't
00:35:00
have to be so hard? I had no answer. I don't know, because everything has been hard for as long as I can remember. And the question of why. Because that felt spiritual. That felt like the calling. That felt like the goal. If things were hard, then you must really be, you know, sacrificing for the Lord, or you must really be, you know, serving other people, or you must really be outwardly focused. And all those kinds of phrases that, you know, were so normalized for. For us for so long, that I didn't have an answer to that question. But what that question did do in that moment was it in. It implied that there could be a different way for me to move through the world. That didn't have to be martyrdom. It didn't have to be victimhood. It didn't have to be, purposefully putting myself in situations that would be difficult, as if there was going to be a trophy at the end.
Sarah (00:59):
Right.
Corinne (01:00):
I wanted so many trophies. I wanted the gold stars. I thought that was the goal. You know, I wanted the approval. I wanted the. I wanted that. That measuring stick, those metrics. To know that I was on the right path. That's all I ever cared about was, tell me what the right path is, and that's the one I want to be on.
Sarah (01:01):
It's wild to me, Karine, that neither of us had answers for those seemingly simple, questions. I feel like it's also really telling, though. Like, it makes me wonder who. Who benefits from keeping women so disintegrated from our power and our connection to ourselves, but also to one another? Like, what systems are designed to keep women so small? What policies and rules and theologies have been set in place to separate women from themselves and one another. I mean, I feel like we already know that patriarchy is absolutely dependent on it. And keeping women small and tired and distracted and disconnected from our joy is like a keystone practice in countless churches, nonprofits. I mean. Yep, we know that. We know that to be true.
Corinne (01:02):
Yep.
Sarah (01:03):
But I. I keep thinking, too, that, like, as we wake up and we begin to take some ground back, like when we admit we want something and we actually go for it, when we answer those questions for ourselves and act on behalf of ourselves, that becomes a ripple, Like a ripple that rebuilds our own atrophied muscles and empowers those around us to do the same. And, oh, my gosh, that's the magic.
Corinne (01:04):
That's the power.
Sarah (01:05):
Because the truth is, the more integrated that we become, the less bullshit we're willing to put up with.
Corinne (01:06):
Yep. That's the audacity that is the rising up of all of us. That is the lanterns lifted high. That is the bonfires on the bluff. That is the light. Those are the flares we are sending up. Like, that's the audacity to feel like there could be a better way, to feel like we could belong to ourselves, return to ourselves. And it's. It's catching. So these, receptors, responses that we're already hearing, the, the. The me toos and the with yous that we are already receiving, we know we're not alone. And we know that this is happening around bonfires that we've not even been to yet. We know that there are women out there, that there are groups, there are communities out there that are already gathering around their own bonfires. but the audacity to rise up after something difficult, man, that is no small thing. That is the most beautiful thing.
Sarah (01:07):
So true. And to do it together, to do it collectively, to find these match strikers out along the desert trails with us as we go, it's just the most incredible thing. And I mean, so glad we're here and we get to do this work.
Rebeca (01:08):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah Carter and Corrine Shark on the 1C Story Network. For more information about this and all of our stories, please visit justonec.com. That's J U S T O N E C dot com.
Corinne (01:09):
Boom. Done.
Singer (01:10):
The 1C Story Network.
For the love of stories.
00:40:18
Episode 4 – That Damned Yellow Notebook
Sarah (00:01):
For all the match Strikers.
Corinne (00:02):
This is Spiritual Pyro. Okay, no, but let's. Let's. Let's talk about how many conversations we are seeing and hearing and participating in where women are feeling a freedom and a permission to talk about what they want, what they desire, what they dream about, what they need, and in ways that feel really current and relevant and timeless. And we wrote about our own journeys into want and need and dreaming. We wrote about that years back when we first started our manuscript. And we had always hoped that the things that we would be writing about would still feel relevant by the time our book flew out into the world. And I feel like that feels true right now. It feels like I'm seeing so many conversations, I'm hearing from so many women about connecting to themselves, returning to themselves in a way that leads them into their wants and their needs and their desires, whether that's spiritual or emotional or physical or material, like, all the permission for all of it, and that it all belongs. So that feels like, you know, you and I and our respective therapeutic journeys, like, that's a. It's a touchstone for us, and I hope a conversation that we get to continue with the women that we're in community with.
Sarah (00:03):
It's so true. And I wonder, you know, how much of that is because of the trauma that we experienced that almost made therapy, I'll speak for myself, inevitable. There was. There was no way I could just sort of muscle my way through, power myself, through the healing that was required. I needed help. Which is hard to admit. It's hard to admit that on some level, but in the same way that I think it's hard to admit that we want things. and I think especially for women, it's harder to admit that we want things. And especially women who've come out of or are still within religious systems of some kind of. And I think that's very intentionally designed that way. It's on purpose that we learn how to be so detached from what we want and how we feel, what we need. Being able to voice that, being able to be proactive enough to actually. It's an intimidating process, I think, to find a new therapist, too. You don't just suddenly have a fantastic therapist, and sometimes it takes a few before you find someone that really, you connect with and they connect with you and you feel safe and it works. so even just to take those steps on behalf of ourselves, to seek that out, that kind of support, I think says a lot, just about, how committed we both were in our Own ways to healing, to not letting what happened to us be our story forever.
Corinne (00:04):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:05):
Yeah.
Corinne (00:06):
Ah. I think there's so many roadblocks to getting the help that we need. Whether it's, you know, most therapists aren't, you know, don't take insurance, or, you know, if you do find a good therapist, can you afford it? Can you squeeze it into your budget? You know, especially in a time of trauma when those things might not be as secure as they once were. And you know, for me, I mean, I remember driving across town, I drove like, literally my appointments, like Gina's office was like 50, 55 minute drive, you know, and. But once I found that person, and I remember her, so generously, giving me a reduced rate just because of the extenuating circumstances, I wouldn't have, I don't know if I would have pushed through, if I would have had to go through five different people to find a good match, or if I had to pay $300 an hour or like, I don't know if I could have done that, you know. So I think that therapy is, I think it's more and more accessible than it's ever been. And at the same time, you know, a lot of us are just trying to figure out our regular family budget, you know, much less an additional, thing like therapy. So it can feel out of reach too, which is just part of it. It's all, it's all a very, it's a significant act on behalf of ourselves, one that isn't always available. But I also think too that it's just so interesting that we think we go to therapy for one thing, right? I mean, we both knew exactly why we were going to therapy back in 2018. It was very clear what we needed help with, very clear what we needed to process, what we needed support for.
00:05:00
And I mean, you and I have talked about this, but I went into therapy thinking I was going to be working through one specific thing. And of course, because this is how it works, therapy and all of those processes just bled into so many other areas of my life, which is a little unnerving. I mean, when you know you've got something that you're working through and that's enough, but then to actually know, you walk in thinking you're going to deal with one thing and it ends up being about so many other things, there's a lot of what Gina would say, untangling to be done. So, therapy for me was really just untangling this really big knot all of these things that were enmeshed, all of these things that were overlapping and tangled up with each other, and.
Sarah (00:09):
It.
Corinne (00:10):
Was no small thing.
Sarah (00:11):
No small thing. I think that's so true. Which I think also is. That can feel so intimidating because it's. It's asking for a vulnerability that's out of our control in some ways. I mean, we always have control, and it's certain. You consent all those things.
Corinne (00:12):
Consent.
Sarah (00:13):
There's. There's an element of vulnerability in opening yourself up to. You don't really know what you're going to find. You know, like you said, you go in for one thing, and then the untangling. I was going to say unraveling. Same, you know, is. Is that. Well, we don't really know how far this is going to go or where it's going to take us or what we're going to find. And that's kind of terrifying, you know?
Corinne (00:14):
Absolutely.
Sarah (00:15):
but one of the places that it took both of us in our own individual journeys is into this conversation around want and need and desire. And I think the way that that's manifested, we touch on certain points. I love the way that you write about specifically one element that Gina brought into your life that was a bit of a love hate. And so I'd love to hear a little bit more about that if you feel comfortable sharing.
Corinne (00:16):
I will never forget sitting across from her and her handing me this yellow composition notebook, you know, like the ones that you have in high school. Well, at least we did back in the day when when everybody pens and paper.
Sarah (00:17):
Yeah.
Corinne (00:18):
and she told me that she wanted me to write down right there. She wanted me to start writing down a list of things that I wanted, things that I needed, and things that I dreamed about. When she gave me the instruction to write the word want at the top of the first page, it felt cruel because I was sitting in her office with no home, no car, hardly any money, no job, no place to call, my own, nothing. You know, I mean, we had sold most of our belongings before moving overseas and came home so abruptly that we didn't have a plan in place. So the fact that I was even able to sit in her office was a miracle. But I sat there with nothing, and she was asking me to write down what I want. It was. It felt impossible. It felt absolutely impossible. And then she told me to write the word need at the top of the next page. And I burst into tears because I was like, the list is too long. Like, I need everything. And she was like, write it Down. I was like, the littlest things. I need the littlest things. And she's like, write it down. And then she told me to write the word dream at the top of the third page. And I was pissed by this point. I was like, what do you mean, dream? Like, I used up all my dreams. Like, I tried everything I could think of. I went as far as I could go. I took my faith as far as I could take it. What do you mean, dream? Like, I'm just trying to get from day to day. So this practice that she wanted me to participate in, felt. I mean, it was, It was a visceral reaction inside my body. I didn't want it. I threw the notebook down on the table. She was basically looking, like. Looking at me, like, okay, take a breath. And I remember her saying, you know, when we got through that session, and I had come around to the idea that maybe. Maybe I could allow myself to want. Maybe I could allow myself to say out loud and to write down with the pen to the page the things that I need, maybe
00:10:00
if I could allow myself to dream again, which is my nature, always has been, maybe, If. Maybe if I could allow myself to do those things to. To be embodied in that way, maybe I could return to myself. Maybe I could find myself again. The things that had felt dormant, the. The hope that felt lost. Maybe I could find that again. And I remember her saying at the end of that session that she would hold joy for me until I was able to hold it again for myself.
Sarah (00:21):
Wow.
Corinne (00:22):
And that was a profound moment. She was just. She was just gonna hold out joy for me until I could hold it for myself. So I took that damn yellow notebook home, and I was so pissed about it, but I started. I just started and I started kind of with, like, the biggest, most audacious thing I could think of. It was the only way I could go is the only way I could begin was just, you know, jumping in headfirst. And so I did, and I wrote down the biggest things I could dream of and the littlest things that I could want or need and everything in between. I hated every single minute of it until. Until I didn't. Until I started to remember who I was.
Sarah (00:23):
That's incredible. How long do you. If you were to. I don't know, take a guess, how long do you think that process took? Just from the time you first wrote down want, need, dream started filling it in. Was this like, a few months? Is this a practice that you continued for a long time? Years. Is this a Couple weeks. Like, what. What was that like for you?
Corinne (00:24):
It's still hard. I still do it. It's part of me now. It's part of how I look back, and it's part of how I look forward. So I still have those little wants and needs and dreams that I write down, and they're not always in the damn yellow notebook. you know, that's part of my archive. Sometimes they're in my notes app. Sometimes they're in a text message to you. Sometimes they're in, you know, they're on a post it note on my mirrors. You know, they find their way and weave their way into lots of different spaces in my life now. But it's a practice. And all three of those things get to have their moment. All three of those things belong. The wants, the needs, the dreams, all of it.
Sarah (00:25):
Yeah. So.
Corinne (00:26):
Yeah. But it's still hard today. I find myself sometimes having moments where I'm like, oof. Hard to admit, hard to allow. And I have to practice giving myself permission again and again.
Sarah (00:27):
I just think that's. It's so profound to think about, you know, even the. The hope that Gina was able to hold for you when you couldn't access it yourself. And you are such a naturally hopeful person that to imagine that you had gotten to a point where you couldn't reach out and name those wants and those needs and those dreams. and it just makes me wonder, like, I'm curious, from your perspective, how would you, like, what's the difference between want, needs, and a dream? How would you say? Those are different?Corinne
00:15:00
Corinne (00:29):
their way in the stars, you know, like, those things were.
What filled my lungs and helped me sit up taller in those moments when my posture was so hunched over and concave. So the need, you know, the need was more things that was. Was hard to admit. Like, yeah, like, after living for two years in the subtropics, like, I needed new underwear and it was hard to allow myself to buy it. You know, like, things like that where you're just kind of like, oh, yeah. It's not necessarily something that you really want to write down on a list. It's not really something that you want to admit is difficult for yourself. Those basic needs that were even so difficult. But I think one of the things that became really beautiful was the feeling I would get on either of those three lists. And crossing things off, it wasn't like a task. It was like a little altar. It was a little ritual. It became sacred to look at the list and be like, okay, today when we go to Target, we're going to hit that 5 for 25 bin. And then to cross it off the list and be like, yep, I know, honey, I know. I would put my. That's when I started the kind of the practice of putting my hand over my chest and being like, I know, honey, I know. Like, this is hard. It's hard, and we're going to do it anyway. And nobody in this store has any idea the sacred moment that is happening right now at the 5 for 25 bin.
Sarah (00:31):
Right?
Corinne (00:32):
Who knew? Yeah.
Sarah (00:33):
It's the way that this process, this practice almost left, like, little breadcrumbs that you followed back to yourself. And in that process of, like, you mentioned crossing things off the list, it almost. When you talk about empowering and embodiment, it's that pathway back that you created for yourself. I mean, you. You designated the list. You were the one who crossed those things off your list. And the. I don't know, just kind of the audacity to believe that you are worthy not only of having, like, your needs met m But also the dignity of being able to buy yourself flowers. So I'm going to Miley Cyrus style, like, to be Able to buy these things for you or, like when, you know, when you, It's a joy of even just like, freshly washed sheets. When you said pillowcases, I'm like, oh, that feeling when, like, everything is clean and fresh from the dryer and you're just like, I am a princess. I'm going to bed like a princess. You know, it's just the dignity of that, the kindness of that, and to.
Corinne (00:34):
Believe you're worth that, whether it's on the heels of trauma or whether it's just being a mom and your constant focus is providing for everyone else, or whether it's just being a woman in the world, having to struggle to believe that you're worth your own investment, whether that's time or money or energy, you know. And, Sarah, I mean, Barbara really challenged you with that when you were working in your. In your sessions with her. She really challenged you. I would. I would love for you to speak to that.
Sarah (00:35):
Yeah. Well, I think it's also so true in that. That one of the things that I. I had been so detached from my physical self, my. My physical world, as almost it was part of my trauma response was survival mode, which was just don't feel anything. and. And kind of just power through and. And be there for everyone else. And in a lot of ways, I was avoiding my own connection to myself in response that way. So in the slow returning to myself that, you know, unfolded, across so many desert trails over the first, you know, 18 months or so of moving back to Arizona back in2018. you know, one of the things that did not easily come back to me was the. The ability to really answer the question. I remember sitting in a session with Barbara, my therapist. And, and this was during COVID by the way, so I hadn't met Barbara. We just did zoom sessions, which was really interesting. I actually think. Side note, as an introvert, being able to be in my own space and sort of have my own environment experience allowed me to, I think, open up a lot faster than I would have if I was driving to an office and sitting in a waiting room and sitting across from another client and then going, you know, just. The whole. Whole experience is just really different. And I just think that's interesting because there's so many ways to access care.
Corinne (00:36):
Right?
Sarah (00:37):
There's so many ways to access that kind of help and support. And for me, that was a new one and it was a forced one. Every was Covid. Nobody was meeting in person, really. but I'm Actually, really glad that it worked that way. And it was a couple years before I actually met her in person. And it was a really fantastic moment.
00:20:00
It's so surreal. You're like, oh, my gosh, you're a real person. You're real. but I'll never forget the session, with her where, you know, she'd been so patiently walking with me through my own journey of really detachment from myself and my actual life. And as I started to kind of come back to myself, there was this kind of glaring gap when it came to my ability to. To really do anything that wasn't the benefit of someone else or wasn't for a specific need it didn't have. It would. It would be. I mean, I would use words like, that's so frivolous. That's so selfish. How. I mean, again, the audacity. Like, m. I don't need it, so I'm fine, you know, and the less things I needed, the. The less vulnerable I had to be. And coming out of such a traumatic experience, it was really scary to think about letting my life be big enough that I got to take up space in it, too.
Corinne (00:40):
Sam.
Sarah (00:41):
Yeah, which is, again, that's a bigger conversation that I hope we circle back to, whether it's in this episode or a future one. Just about. Why is it so damn hard to take up space in our own life? It's that scene in the Holiday where, Oh, I forget who it was. Kate Winslet. I think she's like, I should be the main character in my own life, you know, like the leading lady in my own life. That's so true. How often we're living our life as a supporting cast member.
Corinne (00:42):
Yeah, but. But think about that. I mean, really, that's. That's part of how the system that we were handed works, you know? I mean, we were conditioned within high control religion to where that's how you get the jewels in your crown. I mean, that's a, That's the Proverbs 31, woman. Right? Like, that's what we were handed. We were handed the idea that the less you need, the less you want, the less space you take up. the more you pick up your cross, the more you deny yourself. That's the goal. Like, that's who we were supposed to aspire to be and shit. Like, you give us a goal, and we're gonna, like, knock it out of the park, right? So we were, like, professionals at denying ourselves. So it's no wonder that we were detached from our bodies. It's no wonder I threw that damn yellow notebook across there. Like that was the exact opposite of everything that we had known. And that's why the unravel, unraveling got so messy was because we weren't just unraveling the trauma that we had experienced, we were then unraveling the faith foundations that undergirded the whole damn thing.
Sarah (00:43):
Yeah. Within the faith system and outside of it, even just culturally, I mean, just again, the messaging we grew up, we grew up with through our childhood, through our, you know, adolescent years as women, it's, it's everywhere, that messaging that we, in so many different ways that were supposed to be so small and so good. And so Barbara asked me this question that just threw me on my heels. She said, and it sounds so simple, I'm embarrassed to even say it. but she's like, what do you do for fun? Like, what do you do for play? What is play for you? And m. I, I remember I just kind of sat there like blank, totally, completely had no answer for her. And I, I had almost an like out of body moment where I was almost like observing myself and going like, Feels like something a person should be able to answer pretty easily, right? Like that's, that feels like something. I'm surprised that I, that I have absolutely nothing to say. And I kept trying to think about things, but everything that I, that I brought up was related in some way to benefiting the greater good. That's the family or a friend or you know, just in general. It was, it was, I had only allowed myself the, the joy of play to the extent that it benefited someone else. It's how, it's how I justified what felt indulgent or it felt, selfish. Yeah.
Corinne (00:44):
Yeah.
Sarah (00:45):
so, you know, I was like, well, maybe we should, maybe we should like explore that a little bit. Like, almost like gold. Barbara, that's it, that's, that's one of those points you like. Yeah. Crossroads. You're never going to be the same once you hit one of those moments, I think. And then, you know, it really, it became this question that I, I had to answer for myself. I wanted to know the answer to that question
00:25:00
and I wanted to know why, why I didn't know the answer to that question. So when, when I refer to the selfish. First of all, you have to picture, that scene in Schitt's Creek where Dave and Alexis are talking about whose turn it is to take a selfish. Because every time that's what it became for me was like I Get the selfish. It's my turn for the selfish. You got the last selfish. And really it was sort of this like way to kind of challenge myself to reframe the word as being negative. Like, ooh, always, the negative connotation. You're so selfish. That's so selfish. And really kind of just asking myself the question like, what if it's. What if it's not a bad thing to be selfish? What if that. What if we've been calling it that. But what it really is is like self care or self love. Like that whole idea of taking up space is who told you that? That. That's selfish. Right. It was kind of that question, when did that become the way it is? And so, I mean there are different, different ways that I tried to practice it. My commitment was just to try to take at least one selfish. Do one selfish a month. and the first one that I did was actually I used up some of our family's hotel points and went and stayed at a hotel just, just 20 minutes away, you know, just by myself. And it was hard enough to make the decision to like use the points like the family hotel points felt selfish and. But I knew if I try to figure this out and even just start this journey, this process in the four walls of this home, I'm going to be thinking about laundry. I'm going to think about, I should be vacuuming. I should be. I've got to go do this. I've got to go. There's no way, there's no room, there's no space to even consider myself within this home. Because I had spent so many years training myself and everyone else to think about my m. Me in a certain way. So I didn't even know. So for me it was really important to get some space just so that I could ask the question without having any other background noise going on in my head. And it was stupidly hard. It was ridiculously hard. I like paced the hotel room. I felt so guilty. I mean should was so loud in my head. I should be doing this, I should be doing that. Oh, it was like, I should be working on edits. I should be working on the new thing. I should be. I should be. This call, I should do, you know, so many things that I was shocked at how difficult it was for me to actually relax and you know, just be. and part of that was coming out of again all this stress and trauma that we'd experienced. My body was in hyper alert mode. It didn't know how to relax. and it was this really on purpose practice of no, we're going to sit here, we're going to take up the space and no, you can't go home early. You got to stay here for the full 24 hours, baby. Like you are, you're here. This is your selfish. And it really set a precedent for me that, you know, it's, it's interesting, looking back and talking about that very first experience of selfish now because that, that practice has become so integrated over the years where I'm able to access that without needing so much space. I've built that in that practice into my life. But at the time it was impossibly hard, and embarrassed. I remember feeling embarrassed. Like I'm embarrassed that this is so hard. I feel shame. Like it was just such a wake up call. Like, whoa, how did we get here? I thought I was this independent woman who was super self aware and you know, it's like something as simple as play took me out, you know, another time I, you know, I grew up on a horse ranch in Arizona. Grew up riding horses. We live in the Midwest now. And at the time, you know, we really. I didn't have any interaction or involvement with, with horses anymore. And it's always been like my first love. And there's always, there's been this sort of, had been for years, this sort of separation from like, it was like I wasn't allowed to feel that kind of joy anymore or I didn't want to get my hopes up almost or get attached to something I couldn't have. It was like too much goodness. And I remember one of my selfishness was looking up a barn nearby and driving myself to the barn and just, just inquiring it. And Karine, I was like, my hands were like shaking. I remember walking up to the barn, the, you know, like front desk, in the ranch house and knowing like I'm asking, I'm going to ask them about, you know, horseback riding lessons for adults and like what their programs are. And I was like, it was, I almost chickened out and I, you know, I almost didn't do it was so nervous just to take up that kind of space for myself. And I remember walking out and the gal that had helped me was so sweet.
00:30:00
She's like, well, if you want to just walk around, you can, you can stay as long as you want. And I just like walked from stall to stall and the smells and the sounds and the little fuzzy horse noses and just, it was such a gift to myself and it was like 10 minutes down the road, and I could have done any other time. And it's. It's so wild how we. Myself, I'll say, it was. It was like I was keeping myself from. From that kind of play, that kind of joy, that kind of happiness, and, I don't know, the act of choosing that we're worthy of that kind of joy and happiness, choosing to believe that that doesn't make us selfish, that it doesn't make us indulgent, that we're allowed to be complex, and we're allowed to do more than just scrape by with the bare minimum. it was revolutionary for me, and it's a practice that I continue to this day. I take my selfishness, in all kinds of ways. And now it's become so second nature. And, you know, one of the things I think I'm most. Most glad about in that is the way that I have rewired the way that I function within my family. So that. That's good not only for me, but that's good for my husband, that's good for my daughter. It's good for my son. Right.
Corinne (00:50):
But it's.
Sarah (00:51):
It's. It's still. I'm still centering myself in that. Which is not selfish in this. In this example. Right? It's not. And so it's still hard sometimes. You know, I relate to what you're saying about. It's not like one day you wake up and you're like, ah, I'm cured. Everything is easy now. Like, it's still hard. but I know what I'm working with, you know, like, it's sort of that, Like you're learning a new language, and you sort of figure out, like, okay, I know what's going on here.
Corinne (00:52):
You know, it's. It's musculature, right? Like, when we always talk about, we. Like, we have the musculature, but sometimes it. There's certain parts of that that have to get rebuilt. Those muscles we haven't used in a really long time that have atrophied, and then we have to work really hard and diligently to, like, build back that strength. I'm just picturing you in that ranch house with a little quiver in your voice, asking about. Just asking about the horses, asking about lessons. Like, allowing yourself to want something is. I feel like it's so fragile, it's so vulnerable, because it's. Once you let it out of the cage, you can't get it back in. Once you admit you want something, once you Admit that something is. Feels like hope or feels like yourself or feels like joy. Oh, my gosh. It's so, You feel so exposed, right? And I. I always think about the phrase, you know, I don't want to get my hopes up. And it's like, nobody says that unless their hopes are already up. Like, you don't. You don't. You're not aware of hope unless your hopes are already up and you're feeling really exposed or fragile about that, right? So it's like, with want, once we admit what we want, then it's like, oh, man. Like, the risk of disappointment feels so great. Like, what if you can't afford it? Or what if you don't have time? Or what if. What if, what if? Right? Like, what if whatever it is that you most fear is going to be the reason that you can't have something or do something or become something? Our hopes are already up. And so you walk in that ranch house. I mean, you write about that. You write about your girlhood with horses. I, love how you write about it in Palomino in the book. And I hope that, I hope that anyone who's listening to this episode has a chance to read that, because you take us to that place in your girlhood so vividly that, like, I know I have a very clear picture of you walking into that ranch house that day. Because m. Of it.
Sarah (00:53):
Wow.
Corinne (00:54):
So I love that M. I'm thinking about Barbara and that question that still lingers with you. And I'm thinking about the question that Gina asked me where she was, like, who would you even be if everything didn't have to be so hard? I burst into tears. I burst into tears, basically, for everything Regina would say to me.
Sarah (00:55):
Yeah, same, same.
Corinne (00:56):
But the idea, like, who would you even be if everything didn't have to be so hard? And that question was on the heels of unraveling so much of my martyrdom, so much of the victim mentality that I had taken on and put on top, put on my own shoulders through religion. This. It's okay. I didn't want it anyway. It's okay. I don't need it anyway. You know, I'll sacrifice. I'll. You know, I'll do whatever the hard thing is. You know, that idea that gets so rewarded had woven itself so deeply into my ideas of who I was or what I could want in life that when she asked me that, who would you even be if everything didn't
00:35:00
have to be so hard? I had no answer. I don't know, because everything has been hard for as long as I can remember. And the question of why. Because that felt spiritual. That felt like the calling. That felt like the goal. If things were hard, then you must really be, you know, sacrificing for the Lord, or you must really be, you know, serving other people, or you must really be outwardly focused. And all those kinds of phrases that, you know, were so normalized for. For us for so long, that I didn't have an answer to that question. But what that question did do in that moment was it in. It implied that there could be a different way for me to move through the world. That didn't have to be martyrdom. It didn't have to be victimhood. It didn't have to be, purposefully putting myself in situations that would be difficult, as if there was going to be a trophy at the end.
Sarah (00:59):
Right.
Corinne (01:00):
I wanted so many trophies. I wanted the gold stars. I thought that was the goal. You know, I wanted the approval. I wanted the. I wanted that. That measuring stick, those metrics. To know that I was on the right path. That's all I ever cared about was, tell me what the right path is, and that's the one I want to be on.
Sarah (01:01):
It's wild to me, Karine, that neither of us had answers for those seemingly simple, questions. I feel like it's also really telling, though. Like, it makes me wonder who. Who benefits from keeping women so disintegrated from our power and our connection to ourselves, but also to one another? Like, what systems are designed to keep women so small? What policies and rules and theologies have been set in place to separate women from themselves and one another. I mean, I feel like we already know that patriarchy is absolutely dependent on it. And keeping women small and tired and distracted and disconnected from our joy is like a keystone practice in countless churches, nonprofits. I mean. Yep, we know that. We know that to be true.
Corinne (01:02):
Yep.
Sarah (01:03):
But I. I keep thinking, too, that, like, as we wake up and we begin to take some ground back, like when we admit we want something and we actually go for it, when we answer those questions for ourselves and act on behalf of ourselves, that becomes a ripple, Like a ripple that rebuilds our own atrophied muscles and empowers those around us to do the same. And, oh, my gosh, that's the magic.
Corinne (01:04):
That's the power.
Sarah (01:05):
Because the truth is, the more integrated that we become, the less bullshit we're willing to put up with.
Corinne (01:06):
Yep. That's the audacity that is the rising up of all of us. That is the lanterns lifted high. That is the bonfires on the bluff. That is the light. Those are the flares we are sending up. Like, that's the audacity to feel like there could be a better way, to feel like we could belong to ourselves, return to ourselves. And it's. It's catching. So these, receptors, responses that we're already hearing, the, the. The me toos and the with yous that we are already receiving, we know we're not alone. And we know that this is happening around bonfires that we've not even been to yet. We know that there are women out there, that there are groups, there are communities out there that are already gathering around their own bonfires. but the audacity to rise up after something difficult, man, that is no small thing. That is the most beautiful thing.
Sarah (01:07):
So true. And to do it together, to do it collectively, to find these match strikers out along the desert trails with us as we go, it's just the most incredible thing. And I mean, so glad we're here and we get to do this work.
Rebeca (01:08):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah Carter and Corrine Shark on the 1C Story Network. For more information about this and all of our stories, please visit justonec.com. That's J U S T O N E C dot com.
Corinne (01:09):
Boom. Done.
Singer (01:10):
The 1C Story Network.
For the love of stories.
00:40:18
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