June 15, 2025 • 44 mins
Deconstruction Part 1 - What We Were Handed
Sarah and Corinne look back on the stories from their early years in Christianity, before the Willow Creek and Exodus Road debacles. From purity rings to liturgy, youth groups to evangelical t-shirts, their sincerity and commitment were everything the Christian church hopes for in a believer.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Sarah and Corinne look back on the stories from their early years in Christianity, before the Willow Creek and Exodus Road debacles. From purity rings to liturgy, youth groups to evangelical t-shirts, their sincerity and commitment were everything the Christian church hopes for in a believer.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Sarah (00:02):
For all the match Strikers, this
is spiritual pyro.
(00:27):
I'm so looking forward to this conversation that
we've been. We've been kind of circling like in our
own, in our own friendship as we've just been
connecting lately as we're reading some of the comments and
feedback we're getting, which is just again, been so
fantastic from those that are listening.
and you know, who knows, I mean, it's going to be hard to sum up this,
(00:47):
this topic of deconstruction.
Big word in.
>> Corinne (00:54):
Not loaded at all.
>> Sarah (00:55):
Not loaded at all. Super neutral. Ye,
definitely, especially coming from our, from our
backgrounds and stories. But
I'm looking forward to it. I mean, this is water we've been swimming in
and so many people that we know and love are
swimming and have been swimming in this water too. So
feels like a really important conversation to
(01:16):
engage with. And I mean, I always
love getting your perspective, especially when
it comes to matters of faith.
>> Corinne (01:24):
Same, same. And I think it's just kind of,
it's timely just on the heels of last week's episode,
you know, talking about the women we come from and the stories we
come from and, you know, what we were handed,
when we were young as well as
here in midlife and what we hand each other. And I
think that faith is a part of that, wherever
(01:46):
you find yourself on that spectrum. And, you know,
what we were handed when we were young is often,
such a big part of our origin story.
And so it kind of makes sense for us to just jump in.
What do you think?
Let's just go for it.
>> Sarah (02:02):
Let's go for it. That's kind of our style if we're honest.
We're like, give me the deep end. I'm going in with both
feet.
>> Corinne (02:09):
Cannonball, baby, cannonball. Like, let's just, let's just
do it. Let's just talk about it. So let's, let's talk about
where we come from and what we were handed and
Tell me, Sarah, tell the listeners. Like,
why don't you just kick us off and start off with a little
bit of your faith origin
stories? The, lore of
(02:30):
the deep. The deep. We were there when the
deep magic was written.
>> Sarah (02:35):
The deep magic of the what? Like,
90s Christian purity
culture. That's the deep magic I come from.
Yeah, I, you know, so it's, it's kind of
funny because I actually didn't grow up in a
religious family. We didn't have
regular Sundays at church.
(02:57):
I was sort of like this anti rebel
because I wanted to go to church.
>> Corinne (03:03):
Imagine.
>> Sarah (03:04):
Imagine. I know, but
I had always. A lot of my friends attended.
It, was just a local, non denom
church, which can mean many, many things.
but non denominational and yeah, I had
friends that attended and always invited me, you know, being.
Good, good. what's the right
(03:25):
word for that? It's not loaded.
all the words are loaded.
>> Corinne (03:29):
All the words are loaded. Can we just establish that?
Can we just establish that? Everything
about this conversation feels really loaded for everybody.
Whether you're listening, wherever we're coming
from, all of these things can feel really loaded.
So I would just kind of want to take that off your shoulders.
that you aren't. You don't have to carry that by yourself. I'm
(03:50):
with you in that.
>> Sarah (03:51):
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I
attended weekly. I went to their
midweek, youth groups, you know, sing all
the songs, did all the hangouts, all the
silly games. But I loved it. I actually
really, really looked forward to those, those services
in that time. And you know, I think
I come from a big family, so it wasn't, it wasn't like I
(04:14):
was, lonely, but I
really liked the connection and belonging and community
that I would experience when I would be at those services.
And so. So really it was sort of this slow
beginning all through my elementary years, through junior high
years and through high school where
I was baptized.
(04:35):
Junior high friend's backyard pool.
so had the. Do you remember, did
you have one of the, purity rings? Karine, did you have a
purity ring? I did a lot. How were you spared?
I guess we'll get to your story.
>> Corinne (04:50):
Yeah, well, I'm. I'm just slightly
older than you and I think that there's some, you know, things that,
you know, I kind of missed right under a little
gap, like just a few.
>> Sarah (04:59):
Yeah, that, that's.
>> Corinne (05:00):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Sarah (05:01):
Oh, yeah. Yep. Made the pledge. I
kissed. Dating goodbye. Yeah,
I mean, I was, I was all in,
baby. So. So that's. That's just a
glimpse at sort of my. What
I was handed in many ways is what
I was seeking out is. Is I went looking for.
(05:22):
It wasn't necessarily given to me through a
family member or tradition. I
was so hungry. Yeah.
>> Corinne (05:30):
I think you were all in, baby. You were all in, baby.
>> Sarah (05:33):
Yeah.
So that's. That's what I. That's what I
sought out. It's. It's what I was handed, I guess, was the
theology that existed within that system. But
it was a system that I actively
sought out and the belonging that it gave me, the
connection, the fun,
the, the ability to. I don't know
(05:54):
if like, if, if you miss a week, they're going to notice you're not there. You
know, it just was like built in community and
it was just. There was almost like an empty
space within me that I didn't realize was there.
And this church experience
just fulfilled it in some ways.
>> Corinne (06:12):
Yeah. I just, I wanna, I wanna know how that was for your family
if your family wasn't church going. You know,
it really could go either way. They could be like, you know,
oh great, I'm so glad you're hanging out with
the good rule following kids at church instead of, you
know, whatever alternative was
available to you at the time. Or they could be like,
(06:33):
oh, what is she getting into? You know, I mean families can
go either way. So I'm just kind of curious how that was for you.
>> Sarah (06:39):
It, it was, you know, it's funny because my dad
was supportive but
nervous. So he, he'd grown up in a, with
a Catholic background and so grew up very, very intentionally
as soon as he could make decisions for himself, not
religious. And so he was not,
he was supportive, but he
(07:00):
was not too keen and eager to like,
you know, get me involved in everything church, church
related. and
to the point where, to the point where
when I made the decision later to go to
Christian college, his stipulation was
fine, just don't marry a pastor.
(07:22):
And I was like, oh my God, I
would never, I would never marry a
pastor. What do you mean?
Fast forward and and that's exactly what happens.
But but yeah, so I mean it was, it was not a point
of tension, but it was definitely
understood that that was something I was
pursuing. And I definitely went through a few
(07:44):
years where it was very convinced that it was
my job to save my wayward father.
You know, I'd wear the like,
cheesy cliche little church shirts with the
sayings that talked about, you know, not
going to hell.
>> Corinne (08:02):
A good T shirt.
>> Sarah (08:03):
Right. I'm like 13, thinking, I know
everything, I'm going to save him.
Yeah. Bless my dad. He really put up with a lot,
a lot of passive aggressive attempts,
to save his soul. So thanks for hanging in there,
dad.
>> Corinne (08:18):
And, and now he's like one of our biggest cheerleaders.
>> Sarah (08:21):
I know. I love him so much.
So, yeah, but that's, that is, that's that side.
And then my mom ended up finding her own path into a
religious,
community as well. And so in
a similar way, was supportive. the church
that I attended was the same one she did for a while. And
(08:42):
then, and then I started going to a couple different
ones. I got to the point where I needed like double church.
Sometimes I would go to like one service.
Wow. Yeah. And then like drive over to, you know,
other church and go again. Yeah. I was
die hard.
>> Corinne (08:58):
You were like, you were doubling down on this anti
rebellion.
>> Sarah (09:01):
I mean, I was gonna win whatever, whatever the
prize was. I didn't even need it. I just like let me
win.
>> Corinne (09:07):
Yeah, you were winning. You were literally winning
at religion. so good at religion.
>> Sarah (09:13):
I got all the gold stars.
>> Corinne (09:17):
Well, and there's a lot of them. There's a lot available. You know,
they're readily, readily available. I,
I love that, that you. I don't know, I just
think that again, you know, we, we often joke about being so
earnest. You know, it's just like we tried so hard. Like literally
you were trying so hard, you know, the
doubling up and doubling down at the same time.
>> Sarah (09:38):
So many doubles.
>> Corinne (09:43):
Oh, we were so cute.
>> Sarah (09:45):
I know it.
>> Corinne (09:46):
I bet you were so cute driving across town for that
second service.
>> Sarah (09:50):
Oh. so earnest.
>> Corinne (09:50):
Right.
>> Sarah (09:51):
Like, just really devoted. Had my Bible with all my
notes and scribbles, my pen and my notebook.
Oh, yeah. All in.
(10:27):
So I, you know, I'm curious. I want to hear
about your own experience, what you were handed
and I'm just dying to hear.
Yeah. What. What little Corey was like in
as, she was exploring maybe her own, her own faith in
those early years.
>> Corinne (10:44):
Yeah, I mean, I'm just like. I
had my precious moments Bible when I was little
and you know, that was that I was off and
running. M. I was actually.
I'm always, you know, surprised every time
we talk about our kind of our faith origin stories, just because
neither of us were handed the
(11:05):
evangelical system that we were a part of when we met,
you know, so, you know, when I was
working at the college and you were attending as a student,
like that neither of us were the kid
or the young woman who
grew up within that system. Right. So so
many people that you and I know,
(11:26):
separately and collectively, so many
people, were raised with that from a very,
very young age within their, within their family,
within their histories. And I think that's a
unique experience. So for you and I,
we kind of came to it on our
own a little bit later and ah, apart
(11:47):
from our families, so I just, I just think that's an interesting
piece. So I was Raised Episcopal. So in
the Episcopal tradition, you know, we were a part
of a story. Small church community across
town, that was rich
with tradition and
openness and it was
a very,
(12:09):
uneventful part of my
life. It was, it was just this. It was
part of my life, but it was a part as
opposed to, being
everything. And I think that that's a unique
difference, from tradition to tradition.
Right. from denominations within different,
(12:31):
within different worldviews that looks different for different people.
For me at a young age, it was one part
of my life. And I think I've always
kind of been wrestling and
I think there's a part of me that's always been
deconstructing at, ah, every single point along the way.
I've always been asking questions, I've always been unraveling things.
(12:51):
I've always been changing my mind and trying
something different and, you know, really
evaluating what I thought about things even from a young age.
And you know, one of my
chapters in Skies that I'm so excited
for people to read is. Has to do with. That has to do
with me being a young teenager in
the Episcopal Church and really pushing
(13:14):
back against my family and pushing back against,
you know, the, the, What. What
would it be called? The liturgy. that was the
norm there. But really it wasn't until
I went to church camp for the first time,
and not church camp with my church. I mean,
we had like a youth group of like 10 kids. You know, it was like,
(13:34):
again, very uneventful. but I went to
a church camp that my,
relatives were familiar with, and it was in California
and it was this giant camp with
hundreds of kids my age. And the
first time I went, I was like, wait a minute,
wait a minute. Like, believing in God and like,
(13:56):
church stuff can be fun. And I was like,
oh, that's when I was like, I'm in, because I just want to have
a good time.
>> Sarah (14:03):
Right?
>> Corinne (14:03):
Like, I was at the age where I was like, I didn't
want to say, sit down and stand up and kneel and sit down
and stand up and recite. And you know, that wasn't.
I, I didn't. I wasn't finding any life in that. So
when I went to church camp for the first time, my eyes
were opened to this, like,
possibility of fun and
(14:23):
friends and good music and cute boys
and, you know, the mountaintop experience,
right, that. That, most of us have
had at some point in our life. And
from then on, it was like every summer,
if I could go to church camp every summer. And I, and
I did. I went again and again throughout my junior high
(14:44):
and high school years. if I could just go to church camp,
like, all was right with my world.
And so it wasn't really,
specifically religion I was handed. And it
also was not the experience that I was handed. It
was something that I, I kind of got to do on
my own. It was my first little bit of independence.
And so I had this independent experience
(15:07):
and was really exploring, like, the
independence of thought and belief and what I wanted
for myself. And I took that,
I took all that. you know, really looking back,
it was very evangelical in terms of theology and
perspective and. Oh, man, I took all that
and I placed it so squarely on my
(15:27):
own shoulders. Like, nobody, nobody made me believe
anything. Nobody, you know, nobody ground
me down until I, you know, until I accepted, you know, the
family faith or anything like that. No, it was just this, this experience
that I wanted again and again and again. And
honestly, it became like this high
that I was seeking. Right. So at that point, my
(15:47):
drug of choice was religion. It was
that thing that gave me the belonging,
the connection, the social outlet, like, all the
fun, the games. you
know, like the soundtrack of my
youth was that kind of a rhythm
and those kinds of experiences. And I really
(16:07):
grew to love that and connect with it.
So, much so that really then, you know, it was. Started
to become identity. So anyway, I think
that's interesting because my family
had those peripheral experiences as well.
But I have always. Like you,
Sarah. I think we have this in common. Like, never did anything
halfway. It was like, if I was going to do this, it was just like
(16:30):
I was going head first or
cannonball into the deep end. All of
life is all for Jesus. Everything about me
now is like, I already was a rule follower. So I
got that part down, you know, and it was like I just
wanted to chase that feeling.
>> Sarah (16:46):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (16:47):
So I did for a while. Did you ever go to church
camp? Did you ever have, like, that kind of like the
mountaintop experience that you, you know, did you ever chase
that?
>> Sarah (16:56):
Yeah, yeah. There was a church camp that we went to that
was a couple hours north of the valley. We would go, the
church would go every summer. And
I. Yeah, same. Looked forward to it. It was so fun. And
honestly, I. I look back at. At the
majority of that experience and I'm like, I feel like I want
adult summer camp. Like, I want to go to
(17:16):
camp. Like, it was really so
fun. And of course, everything is
orchestrated and built around the, the altar call
moment where, you know, kids making these
big decisions and declarations about their, their
belief with all of their, you know,
handful years of experience of living on this planet
and I was right there.
>> Corinne (17:37):
And their lack, their lack of a prefrontal cortex.
>> Sarah (17:40):
100%, 100%. Gosh.
But it is that mountaintop that is, ah,
that is something that religious
organizations are very good
at delivering, on because it does create this
emotional connection that, you
know, that I think we are hardwired to want. There's
(18:00):
nothing wrong with that. There's nothing
wrong with, with having that mountaintop experience.
And I, I do think there's something wrong
with it being manipulated, but that's a different side of the
coin. But as far as us, you know,
growing up and being able to have that, it is
just so memorable and you get so close
(18:20):
to your, you know, fellow campers in that week or whatever it
is, and you just have a lot of shared experiences that it's,
there's a lot of freedom. It's just such a different environment than
your normal day to day. You know, there's so many elements to it
that make it memorable and really, really fun.
I, I'm serious about the camp. I think we need to go
to like, adult summer camp and do all the
(18:41):
fun things. Like I want to do, I want to kayak and
hike and you know, play those games, I
don't know, ping pong, whatever. I don't know. Like, come on,
summer camp. Come on. We need to make it
happen.
>> Corinne (18:54):
Well, okay. But also like, that's why we, you know, we've talked about
like, going to concerts and stuff. And it's like as a, as a,
you know, midlife woman now, when I go to
a concert, I'm like, oh, this is
actually so much of why I went
to church is because of this collective
experience. I just didn't know
(19:14):
it, it could exist outside of church.
Right. Like, what I want is, I want
this. This. You know, like, you and I, we stood with
our girls at the ERAs tour, you know, I mean,
like that moment of, you know,
everyone singing and dancing and
having this, you know, this what Brene Brown would,
(19:35):
you know, used to talk about collective joy.
That it was like, oh, this is actually
just what I was seeking in church, this
feeling. And it really wasn't about,
a specific belief in God, although it does
feel very divine and holy in many ways.
It really wasn't about those songs as much
(19:56):
as it was about this collective energy and being
together. And you know, for The ERAS tour,
also, feeling safe, you know, and being around
people who are enjoying the same things that you're enjoying.
So that connection like you were speaking to is what
we're, we are wired for. and there's
so many ways that we can experience that.
(20:17):
I mean, you know me, I'm like, I, I, I
actually, I actually do want to
get women together outside and you know, whether it's like
snowboarding or horseback riding, like, you've
talked about, like, you know, doing those things that
we loved so much, when we were
younger. And it's like, why aren't we all doing that together
(20:37):
in midlife? Right? Like, yeah.
>> Sarah (20:40):
So, yeah, it makes me think, I saw just the other day,
it was a meme and it said something like,
we're not saying, what, do you want to hang out anymore?
We're saying, do you want to go play? Like, bring back play?
Like, do you want to go play? Remember? I was like, oh, I love
that so much. Yes, I want to go play.
>> Corinne (20:57):
Me too.
>> Sarah (20:58):
Yeah, I do that. Big dreams.
>> Corinne (21:00):
I feel like that's going to, I know. I feel like that's going to be another
conversation. Yeah.
>> Sarah (21:34):
Okay. So I'm curious as you were sharing some of
your, your faith, origin story, your lore.
you know, I'm curious what your, like,
what your actual how
much God was. And like seeking God
was a piece of the, the
church, you know, experience. Like of all the different ways you could
(21:56):
have fun, of all the different ways you could have sought out
kind of those mountaintop experiences to choose church. I'm
just curious, like, was that, was that
a part of the faith story for you or was it
not at that point?
>> Corinne (22:10):
Yeah. So I think what's
interesting is that where I grew
up, I had
a large circle of friends
that, where everything revolved around
religion. So I had a, you know, kind of
that close concentric circle of friends that were
(22:30):
all different versions and iterations
of Christian traditions. and we,
I'm literally still friends with all of them today.
So, those lasting relationships, even
though we didn't, we weren't always,
exactly the same in our religious
expressions. we kind of had this core
connection that really, you know, for some of my
(22:52):
friends goes back as far as like third grade.
and that was always true. And then we were a part of
this bigger concentric circle of friends that was
heavily lds, Mormon. So
living here in the valley, in the,
in the town that we lived in, that was a
really big part of just my social
(23:12):
circle. So it Wasn't really like
always necessarily about,
specific beliefs in God, as much as, like,
everybody was religious in some way
in, in terms of my social
upbringing. But what was interesting is that the
older I got, the more I started to realize the differences
(23:33):
and, and, but at the same
time, we were all just having a good time. Everybody was just having fun. Everybody was
doing everything together. There didn't always,
feel like big separations. And that was
sometimes part of the conversation and a lot of times not.
And, you know, many ways it didn't matter. It
wasn't until,
(23:54):
later on for me in, in high school
where. Okay, I'm going to tell you a story. Okay.
>> Sarah (23:59):
Okay. Oh, yes, my m. Favorite. I'm leaning in.
>> Corinne (24:03):
So I, I went on a date with this
boy who is lds and at
that time I didn't know him very well, but it
was like a summer, a fun summer date. And, you
know, we had worked together and, you know, it
was super casual, no big deal. So we
go to his house to stop by to
(24:23):
grab something on our way out on the state
that we're going to go on. And, and I remember standing
in his kitchen. We were literally at his house for like 10
minutes. Remember, standing in his kitchen
and his dad walked in and his
dad kind of looked me up and down and he goes,
oh, what ward are you in? And
(24:44):
you're not being Mormon? I said, oh, you know, and that was no big
deal. I had had a million parents ask me, you know,
things assuming that I was part, ah, of the Mormon Church,
and I was just always Mormon adjacent. So, so
anyway, he, he's like, oh, what word are you in? And
I said, oh, I'm not, I'm not Mormon. And he looks
at his son and he goes, and he chuckles and he goes, well,
(25:04):
you can take that one home. And I
was like, standing there like a deer in the
headlights. Like, I had had,
I had been in that situation a million times. I had never
had somebody's parent
tell, like, basically say that I needed to go
home, that I, I was out. That was a
who's in, who's out moment for me. And I
(25:27):
was, you know, by no means did I think everybody's parents
were like that. I had never had that experience in all my years of
having Mormon friends and having, you know, dated
Mormon boys. That was never a part of my experience.
But as a young woman, in that
moment, I was like, oh, we
can all have a good time, but at the end of the day, it's
(25:47):
who's in and who's out.
>> Sarah (25:49):
Wow.
>> Corinne (25:49):
And that was, like, this moment of be of, like, clarity
for me. That was, like, really jarring. And the
kid, oh, bless his heart. I mean, how awkward would that be, right?
He was so apologetic and, like, really
awkwardly, like, actually took me home.
>> Sarah (26:03):
Oh, my goodness.
>> Corinne (26:05):
But in my mind, I was like, who?
Like, I just dodged a bullet, right? But, like,
actually, that became something that was tremendously
formative for me because I was never.
I was never believing in God
because I was afraid of hell or because I was afraid
that God wouldn't love me if I, you know, didn't believe X, Y
(26:25):
and Z. I was always just more curious about what was true about
the world. I was always more like, well,
what's true about the world? And so I would try something
on for size and feel like, no, that doesn't feel
like what's true about the world. And I would try this over here, and I would try that over there. So I
was always wrestling, always evaluating,
always asking questions, and. And I knew that
(26:46):
I didn't believe the same things that my Mormon friends believed.
but I didn't ever think that it was
going to be such a dividing factor.
So the reason I tell that story is because
later on in life, as I started unraveling my
own faith systems and really
allowing myself to set down everything
(27:06):
I thought I knew for sure and put everything back
on the table and give myself permission to examine
it, I. I was starting to
realize that maybe the faith systems that I had been a
part of weren't that different from that
moment where that kid's dad was like, well,
she's out. You know, where I was like, you know,
(27:27):
a lot of the experiences that I've had and a lot of
experiences that people I know have had
have made me think that maybe
our faith systems aren't all that
different. Maybe there's a lot more in common
than I would have once thought. So,
you know, that is kind of like a tie from
(27:49):
one of my younger year, you know, an experience that I had
during my younger years to, you know, fast forwarding way
forward to how I began to think
about my own faith systems and
the ideas of who's in and who's out. And that really
kind of kind of started that ball rolling for me.
But I think in those younger years,
(28:10):
having taken so much of that and placed it squarely on my
own shoulders, that was the beginning
stages of me just really walking down
every path I could think of to figure out
what was true about the world.
>> Sarah (28:25):
Wow.
>> Corinne (28:26):
So, yeah. I don't know. Did you grow
up with the faith that you had taken on
yourself? Did you grow up with a sense of
a fear of hell or a fear of disappointing
God or, you know, what was really the driving
factor for you in what you did or didn't believe?
>> Sarah (28:44):
Hey, you know, I think in some ways it's similar to what
you've described. I think I.
I was just the. The kid
who always kind of had her head in the clouds,
was always dreamy, was always feeling. It was just
always a very spiritual. I've been always a very
spiritual person. So the idea of
there being something bigger than myself was
(29:07):
not, a leap. It was sort of like. I think I came
into the world assuming that even though I didn't have language for it at
the time, it just was. It didn't feel,
difficult to accept the possibility. It felt
really true. but I didn't have any
handles for that or any language for that or any
boxes for that. And that is what church
(29:27):
gave me. They handed me some boxes and they said, this is
what God is. That thing that you're connected to.
It's God. The way to get to God is through
Jesus. And, yeah, you're either
in or you're out. and
I. I didn't have a reason to question
it. It's like, oh, okay, okay. Well,
(29:48):
I guess that makes sense. This God, this, the way
that Jesus lived, what I'm learning, that all feels like,
okay, all right. You know, and. And it really just
felt like I think if I. I, sometimes
wonder, you know, if I had been handed
a different box with a different religious label,
would that have made just as much sense to me?
(30:09):
You know, and I would have m. Moved forward in that religion or
in that denomination or in that. Whatever that. That
belief system. I really.
It didn't. It wasn't that I was out looking
for explanation.
never really been hungry to, like,
understand God. I
(30:29):
think it was more, the experience
of someone saying, oh, that, that. That
thing that you feel, or that, you know, gut sense
you have, that's the Holy Spirit that they gave me names and
labels for what I already.
The way I was already walking through the world. Does that make sense?
>> Corinne (30:47):
Oh, my gosh, yes. And it's like, of
course. Like, that is you to a
T. And the
idea of the box being handed to you, like,
that's such powerful imagery
for something that you already knew or something that you
already felt inside that you just
(31:08):
didn't have language for. I think about
My quest to kind of figure out what was true about the
world and within the
Christian tradition, it's like, well, here's what's true. This
is the only thing that's true, right? Like, and it's like
m true, you know, with a capital T kind of
thing. And that certainty was
(31:28):
so reassuring to me
that, like, oh, well, there is something
that's true. And I. I think that
looking for that. That's the box I was looking for.
I wanted somebody to hand me the.
>> Sarah (31:43):
Box labeled true M so
that I could.
>> Corinne (31:46):
So then I could relax. Cause I just. Whatever
was true, I. Whatever was right,
I just wanted to be on that path. So then, like, once
you found it, it was like, oh, okay, good. Well, check,
that's done. At least I know I'm on the right path, you know?
And so there was a. A, A. The
romantic notion of
(32:07):
certainty.
>> Sarah (32:09):
Was,
>> Corinne (32:10):
Something that I felt so
much reassurance in. But then I
quickly developed a death grip on
certainty. And once I
felt like I had it, I did
not want to let it go. I would
wrestle it to the ground and find some way,
(32:30):
shape, or form to. To make it
fit. I was. It was gonna fit.
I just had. It was like, my job to figure out how to make it
fit. And so once I felt like I
had that level of certainty,
who, prying it out of
my own hands was.
(32:51):
And loosening that death grip and holding it
loosely enough to be able to be
intellectually honest and tell myself the truth about my own life,
like, that was the hard part. Nobody
else was trying to wrestle it from me. I had to.
I was the one that had to pry my fingers
off of that certainty that I had fallen in
(33:11):
love with.
>> Sarah (33:13):
Fallen in love with the certainty. Wow.
Yeah, that's. That's a lot.
Like, I just want to sit. Sit in that for a minute. Because I
think that is. There's so many layers
to that. And in the similar
way that. That. That
very honest and earnest desire
(33:34):
for truth, just. Just show me. Tell me
what's true. Show me what's true.
And, you know, you. You
were handed a box that said, this
is true. And
why. Again, why. Why question it? Right? Why question
the box? Right within the box that. That
(33:55):
there's. This is. This is a certain
thing. It's almost like, okay, well, check. Got that. I'm
on the right path, like you said. And, it's
interesting to me, as I. As I was thinking
kind of about the faith I was handed
is if I go, like, on a. If I stretch
Out a timeline of my faith. And I go, okay, here is when I
(34:16):
first started getting curious. And what is this? Oh,
here's the box. It's got. Okay, here's the religion. It's this
like, as I look at my
growth over the years as a person, and if we just.
Let's just like, put a stop at like,
graduating high school.
>> Corinne (34:32):
Okay.
>> Sarah (34:32):
Just those. Those early first 18 years of life, like.
>> Corinne (34:35):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Sarah (34:36):
that. How much.
In some ways, how much smaller
my, like, social
network connection, community, world,
ah, perception,
understanding how much of
my own, like my framework for the
(34:57):
way I viewed my life. Not just when
I would attend a service on a Sunday or a midweek or
whatever, but like, it. The way that the belief
system infiltrated everything
about my life and my. The way I interacted
with it, the more involved I
became in the church I was a part
(35:18):
of over the years. So, like, the more
involvement compounded by the amount of time
as I was growing. And really those are very
developmental years. Those are years you are
building who you are. You're also building
your understanding of the world and your place in it. And
so to. To have spent those
(35:38):
years of my life within a system that
consistently, told me
what to think, what to believe, what to feel,
how to look, how to be.
And really that. That sense as you were
talking about, you know, the experience you had with the
boy that you were. You were
seeing, is the exclusivity
(36:01):
of. Of the church. You know, it was
like us versus them, that the communication was,
almost like there's something wrong with
these people that aren't a part of this community that you have to
go save them or fix them or educate them.
And that. That was the loving thing to do. That
was the work to do. And it was
(36:21):
all the messaging was. So much of the messaging, at least
in my experience, was, you know, invite them
to church, like, get your people
here to us. And
rather than there being a, messaging of, hey,
bring. Bring what you have here to your people.
Even, you know, it was just very, It became the
(36:42):
center of so much of my life over the years
that after a while, you may think we.
We stop questioning. Almost like we
don't know how far we've come from ourselves, how
separated from ourselves we've become, in exchange
for. For belonging and community. And really with
every belief that we're just. We're doing the right
thing, we're
(37:05):
helping, we're saving. Literally, we're
saving souls. Is there anything more
noble than that? Right? So we had
like, the motivation we had the inspiration
and we had the handbook, which was.
>> Corinne (37:18):
Yeah, the Bible.
>> Sarah (37:20):
Here you go.
>> Corinne (37:24):
Sam.
(37:58):
I think about the desire, the
obsession with certainty and the desire to be
right. And the
unfortunate part about that is
that within a system
that tells you that you're the
one who's right and everyone else
(38:18):
is wrong also then
comes with a mandate to
convince everyone else
of what you think you're right about. So whether
it's the benevolent
tone of saving souls or whether
it's an academic pursuit
of convincing someone of your point of view,
(38:43):
the saviorism
is something that
was in the box. That was one of
the boxes that we
both, were handed and then grew so weary
carrying. But I think that whether you
believe that you're saving a lost soul or whether you
believe that you're convincing someone
(39:07):
of your right way of thinking,
those are dangerous waters that we were taught to swim in
from a very young age.
>> Sarah (39:15):
That's well said.
>> Corinne (39:16):
And I think that that has been.
I'll speak for myself. That has been one
of the heaviest
threads of unraveling that
I had to untangle was
how long I had spent thinking
that I was right and other people were wrong.
(39:37):
So much to
the surprise of, you know,
what people close to me or people that I hadn't
talked to in years. Like, being able
to grow so
incredibly comfortable with the idea of being wrong
has been one of the greatest joys of my life.
>> Sarah (39:57):
Oh, okay. We just need a minute for that.
He's gonna hold that. One second.
>> Corinne (40:02):
Wow.
>> Sarah (40:03):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (40:03):
Like, understanding that I could be totally wrong
and being so genuinely okay with
that is so
180 degrees opposite
of how I lived most of my life within
faith systems.
>> Sarah (40:20):
Yep.
>> Corinne (40:20):
I could be wrong. I could be totally wrong.
And I have never
felt more free.
>> Sarah (40:27):
Yeah, well, it's like.
>> Corinne (40:29):
Than coming to terms with that.
>> Sarah (40:30):
Yeah. It's. It's the. Your
there's. The stakes aren't as high. Right. Like
your, Your eternal soul and salvation isn't
on the line in the same way. And
that, that forces you in a sense to.
You have to be right. There's so much at stake. You have to be
right. This is the path you chose. You didn't choose
(40:52):
wrong versus taking all
of that pressure, all that weight that you said, placing it on your
shoulders, taking it off, and not. Not needing to be
responsible for being right about everything all the
time. In the same way as accepting. Not needing to
be responsible for convincing everyone, you know,
to think and believe the same way you do.
>> Corinne (41:13):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (41:14):
Which I, That points the needle toward
the, the greater conversation of
deconstruction. And really, you know, if we,
if we plant our 18 year old selves
and, and look at the rest of the map
stretching out beyond, I think that's where a lot of that
conversation is swirling for us and definitely
(41:35):
waters we're gonna keep dipping our toes in.
>> Corinne (41:39):
Absolutely. I think we've got some
really beautiful stories to share and as
well as like you said, stretching out the map.
And I think that there's there's intention in that, you
know, because the more life we live,
the more we realize the less we know
and the further we go and the
(42:00):
more we experience. it's all formative. It
all shapes and reshapes and helps us unravel
and rethread. So I don't know, I kind
of, I kind of think that's where we're going in, in this next part of the
conversation.
>> Sarah (42:13):
Yeah, this might have to be a.
>> Corinne (42:14):
Two parter, I think. So let's
come back, let's come back and get into that.
>> Sarah (42:20):
Let's do.
>> Rebeca (42:37):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah
Carter and Corinne Shark on the 1C Story Network.
For more information about this and all of
our stories, please visit justonec.com. That's j u s t o n e c
dot com.
>> Corinne (43:09):
m. You know, that's my motto. If it's not fun, I don't
want to do it.
>> Singer (43:13):
The 1C story network
for the love of stories.
For all the match Strikers, this
is spiritual pyro.
(00:27):
I'm so looking forward to this conversation that
we've been. We've been kind of circling like in our
own, in our own friendship as we've just been
connecting lately as we're reading some of the comments and
feedback we're getting, which is just again, been so
fantastic from those that are listening.
and you know, who knows, I mean, it's going to be hard to sum up this,
(00:47):
this topic of deconstruction.
Big word in.
>> Corinne (00:54):
Not loaded at all.
>> Sarah (00:55):
Not loaded at all. Super neutral. Ye,
definitely, especially coming from our, from our
backgrounds and stories. But
I'm looking forward to it. I mean, this is water we've been swimming in
and so many people that we know and love are
swimming and have been swimming in this water too. So
feels like a really important conversation to
(01:16):
engage with. And I mean, I always
love getting your perspective, especially when
it comes to matters of faith.
>> Corinne (01:24):
Same, same. And I think it's just kind of,
it's timely just on the heels of last week's episode,
you know, talking about the women we come from and the stories we
come from and, you know, what we were handed,
when we were young as well as
here in midlife and what we hand each other. And I
think that faith is a part of that, wherever
(01:46):
you find yourself on that spectrum. And, you know,
what we were handed when we were young is often,
such a big part of our origin story.
And so it kind of makes sense for us to just jump in.
What do you think?
Let's just go for it.
>> Sarah (02:02):
Let's go for it. That's kind of our style if we're honest.
We're like, give me the deep end. I'm going in with both
feet.
>> Corinne (02:09):
Cannonball, baby, cannonball. Like, let's just, let's just
do it. Let's just talk about it. So let's, let's talk about
where we come from and what we were handed and
Tell me, Sarah, tell the listeners. Like,
why don't you just kick us off and start off with a little
bit of your faith origin
stories? The, lore of
(02:30):
the deep. The deep. We were there when the
deep magic was written.
>> Sarah (02:35):
The deep magic of the what? Like,
90s Christian purity
culture. That's the deep magic I come from.
Yeah, I, you know, so it's, it's kind of
funny because I actually didn't grow up in a
religious family. We didn't have
regular Sundays at church.
(02:57):
I was sort of like this anti rebel
because I wanted to go to church.
>> Corinne (03:03):
Imagine.
>> Sarah (03:04):
Imagine. I know, but
I had always. A lot of my friends attended.
It, was just a local, non denom
church, which can mean many, many things.
but non denominational and yeah, I had
friends that attended and always invited me, you know, being.
Good, good. what's the right
(03:25):
word for that? It's not loaded.
all the words are loaded.
>> Corinne (03:29):
All the words are loaded. Can we just establish that?
Can we just establish that? Everything
about this conversation feels really loaded for everybody.
Whether you're listening, wherever we're coming
from, all of these things can feel really loaded.
So I would just kind of want to take that off your shoulders.
that you aren't. You don't have to carry that by yourself. I'm
(03:50):
with you in that.
>> Sarah (03:51):
Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. So I
attended weekly. I went to their
midweek, youth groups, you know, sing all
the songs, did all the hangouts, all the
silly games. But I loved it. I actually
really, really looked forward to those, those services
in that time. And you know, I think
I come from a big family, so it wasn't, it wasn't like I
(04:14):
was, lonely, but I
really liked the connection and belonging and community
that I would experience when I would be at those services.
And so. So really it was sort of this slow
beginning all through my elementary years, through junior high
years and through high school where
I was baptized.
(04:35):
Junior high friend's backyard pool.
so had the. Do you remember, did
you have one of the, purity rings? Karine, did you have a
purity ring? I did a lot. How were you spared?
I guess we'll get to your story.
>> Corinne (04:50):
Yeah, well, I'm. I'm just slightly
older than you and I think that there's some, you know, things that,
you know, I kind of missed right under a little
gap, like just a few.
>> Sarah (04:59):
Yeah, that, that's.
>> Corinne (05:00):
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Sarah (05:01):
Oh, yeah. Yep. Made the pledge. I
kissed. Dating goodbye. Yeah,
I mean, I was, I was all in,
baby. So. So that's. That's just a
glimpse at sort of my. What
I was handed in many ways is what
I was seeking out is. Is I went looking for.
(05:22):
It wasn't necessarily given to me through a
family member or tradition. I
was so hungry. Yeah.
>> Corinne (05:30):
I think you were all in, baby. You were all in, baby.
>> Sarah (05:33):
Yeah.
So that's. That's what I. That's what I
sought out. It's. It's what I was handed, I guess, was the
theology that existed within that system. But
it was a system that I actively
sought out and the belonging that it gave me, the
connection, the fun,
the, the ability to. I don't know
(05:54):
if like, if, if you miss a week, they're going to notice you're not there. You
know, it just was like built in community and
it was just. There was almost like an empty
space within me that I didn't realize was there.
And this church experience
just fulfilled it in some ways.
>> Corinne (06:12):
Yeah. I just, I wanna, I wanna know how that was for your family
if your family wasn't church going. You know,
it really could go either way. They could be like, you know,
oh great, I'm so glad you're hanging out with
the good rule following kids at church instead of, you
know, whatever alternative was
available to you at the time. Or they could be like,
(06:33):
oh, what is she getting into? You know, I mean families can
go either way. So I'm just kind of curious how that was for you.
>> Sarah (06:39):
It, it was, you know, it's funny because my dad
was supportive but
nervous. So he, he'd grown up in a, with
a Catholic background and so grew up very, very intentionally
as soon as he could make decisions for himself, not
religious. And so he was not,
he was supportive, but he
(07:00):
was not too keen and eager to like,
you know, get me involved in everything church, church
related. and
to the point where, to the point where
when I made the decision later to go to
Christian college, his stipulation was
fine, just don't marry a pastor.
(07:22):
And I was like, oh my God, I
would never, I would never marry a
pastor. What do you mean?
Fast forward and and that's exactly what happens.
But but yeah, so I mean it was, it was not a point
of tension, but it was definitely
understood that that was something I was
pursuing. And I definitely went through a few
(07:44):
years where it was very convinced that it was
my job to save my wayward father.
You know, I'd wear the like,
cheesy cliche little church shirts with the
sayings that talked about, you know, not
going to hell.
>> Corinne (08:02):
A good T shirt.
>> Sarah (08:03):
Right. I'm like 13, thinking, I know
everything, I'm going to save him.
Yeah. Bless my dad. He really put up with a lot,
a lot of passive aggressive attempts,
to save his soul. So thanks for hanging in there,
dad.
>> Corinne (08:18):
And, and now he's like one of our biggest cheerleaders.
>> Sarah (08:21):
I know. I love him so much.
So, yeah, but that's, that is, that's that side.
And then my mom ended up finding her own path into a
religious,
community as well. And so in
a similar way, was supportive. the church
that I attended was the same one she did for a while. And
(08:42):
then, and then I started going to a couple different
ones. I got to the point where I needed like double church.
Sometimes I would go to like one service.
Wow. Yeah. And then like drive over to, you know,
other church and go again. Yeah. I was
die hard.
>> Corinne (08:58):
You were like, you were doubling down on this anti
rebellion.
>> Sarah (09:01):
I mean, I was gonna win whatever, whatever the
prize was. I didn't even need it. I just like let me
win.
>> Corinne (09:07):
Yeah, you were winning. You were literally winning
at religion. so good at religion.
>> Sarah (09:13):
I got all the gold stars.
>> Corinne (09:17):
Well, and there's a lot of them. There's a lot available. You know,
they're readily, readily available. I,
I love that, that you. I don't know, I just
think that again, you know, we, we often joke about being so
earnest. You know, it's just like we tried so hard. Like literally
you were trying so hard, you know, the
doubling up and doubling down at the same time.
>> Sarah (09:38):
So many doubles.
>> Corinne (09:43):
Oh, we were so cute.
>> Sarah (09:45):
I know it.
>> Corinne (09:46):
I bet you were so cute driving across town for that
second service.
>> Sarah (09:50):
Oh. so earnest.
>> Corinne (09:50):
Right.
>> Sarah (09:51):
Like, just really devoted. Had my Bible with all my
notes and scribbles, my pen and my notebook.
Oh, yeah. All in.
(10:27):
So I, you know, I'm curious. I want to hear
about your own experience, what you were handed
and I'm just dying to hear.
Yeah. What. What little Corey was like in
as, she was exploring maybe her own, her own faith in
those early years.
>> Corinne (10:44):
Yeah, I mean, I'm just like. I
had my precious moments Bible when I was little
and you know, that was that I was off and
running. M. I was actually.
I'm always, you know, surprised every time
we talk about our kind of our faith origin stories, just because
neither of us were handed the
(11:05):
evangelical system that we were a part of when we met,
you know, so, you know, when I was
working at the college and you were attending as a student,
like that neither of us were the kid
or the young woman who
grew up within that system. Right. So so
many people that you and I know,
(11:26):
separately and collectively, so many
people, were raised with that from a very,
very young age within their, within their family,
within their histories. And I think that's a
unique experience. So for you and I,
we kind of came to it on our
own a little bit later and ah, apart
(11:47):
from our families, so I just, I just think that's an interesting
piece. So I was Raised Episcopal. So in
the Episcopal tradition, you know, we were a part
of a story. Small church community across
town, that was rich
with tradition and
openness and it was
a very,
(12:09):
uneventful part of my
life. It was, it was just this. It was
part of my life, but it was a part as
opposed to, being
everything. And I think that that's a unique
difference, from tradition to tradition.
Right. from denominations within different,
(12:31):
within different worldviews that looks different for different people.
For me at a young age, it was one part
of my life. And I think I've always
kind of been wrestling and
I think there's a part of me that's always been
deconstructing at, ah, every single point along the way.
I've always been asking questions, I've always been unraveling things.
(12:51):
I've always been changing my mind and trying
something different and, you know, really
evaluating what I thought about things even from a young age.
And you know, one of my
chapters in Skies that I'm so excited
for people to read is. Has to do with. That has to do
with me being a young teenager in
the Episcopal Church and really pushing
(13:14):
back against my family and pushing back against,
you know, the, the, What. What
would it be called? The liturgy. that was the
norm there. But really it wasn't until
I went to church camp for the first time,
and not church camp with my church. I mean,
we had like a youth group of like 10 kids. You know, it was like,
(13:34):
again, very uneventful. but I went to
a church camp that my,
relatives were familiar with, and it was in California
and it was this giant camp with
hundreds of kids my age. And the
first time I went, I was like, wait a minute,
wait a minute. Like, believing in God and like,
(13:56):
church stuff can be fun. And I was like,
oh, that's when I was like, I'm in, because I just want to have
a good time.
>> Sarah (14:03):
Right?
>> Corinne (14:03):
Like, I was at the age where I was like, I didn't
want to say, sit down and stand up and kneel and sit down
and stand up and recite. And you know, that wasn't.
I, I didn't. I wasn't finding any life in that. So
when I went to church camp for the first time, my eyes
were opened to this, like,
possibility of fun and
(14:23):
friends and good music and cute boys
and, you know, the mountaintop experience,
right, that. That, most of us have
had at some point in our life. And
from then on, it was like every summer,
if I could go to church camp every summer. And I, and
I did. I went again and again throughout my junior high
(14:44):
and high school years. if I could just go to church camp,
like, all was right with my world.
And so it wasn't really,
specifically religion I was handed. And it
also was not the experience that I was handed. It
was something that I, I kind of got to do on
my own. It was my first little bit of independence.
And so I had this independent experience
(15:07):
and was really exploring, like, the
independence of thought and belief and what I wanted
for myself. And I took that,
I took all that. you know, really looking back,
it was very evangelical in terms of theology and
perspective and. Oh, man, I took all that
and I placed it so squarely on my
(15:27):
own shoulders. Like, nobody, nobody made me believe
anything. Nobody, you know, nobody ground
me down until I, you know, until I accepted, you know, the
family faith or anything like that. No, it was just this, this experience
that I wanted again and again and again. And
honestly, it became like this high
that I was seeking. Right. So at that point, my
(15:47):
drug of choice was religion. It was
that thing that gave me the belonging,
the connection, the social outlet, like, all the
fun, the games. you
know, like the soundtrack of my
youth was that kind of a rhythm
and those kinds of experiences. And I really
(16:07):
grew to love that and connect with it.
So, much so that really then, you know, it was. Started
to become identity. So anyway, I think
that's interesting because my family
had those peripheral experiences as well.
But I have always. Like you,
Sarah. I think we have this in common. Like, never did anything
halfway. It was like, if I was going to do this, it was just like
(16:30):
I was going head first or
cannonball into the deep end. All of
life is all for Jesus. Everything about me
now is like, I already was a rule follower. So I
got that part down, you know, and it was like I just
wanted to chase that feeling.
>> Sarah (16:46):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (16:47):
So I did for a while. Did you ever go to church
camp? Did you ever have, like, that kind of like the
mountaintop experience that you, you know, did you ever chase
that?
>> Sarah (16:56):
Yeah, yeah. There was a church camp that we went to that
was a couple hours north of the valley. We would go, the
church would go every summer. And
I. Yeah, same. Looked forward to it. It was so fun. And
honestly, I. I look back at. At the
majority of that experience and I'm like, I feel like I want
adult summer camp. Like, I want to go to
(17:16):
camp. Like, it was really so
fun. And of course, everything is
orchestrated and built around the, the altar call
moment where, you know, kids making these
big decisions and declarations about their, their
belief with all of their, you know,
handful years of experience of living on this planet
and I was right there.
>> Corinne (17:37):
And their lack, their lack of a prefrontal cortex.
>> Sarah (17:40):
100%, 100%. Gosh.
But it is that mountaintop that is, ah,
that is something that religious
organizations are very good
at delivering, on because it does create this
emotional connection that, you
know, that I think we are hardwired to want. There's
(18:00):
nothing wrong with that. There's nothing
wrong with, with having that mountaintop experience.
And I, I do think there's something wrong
with it being manipulated, but that's a different side of the
coin. But as far as us, you know,
growing up and being able to have that, it is
just so memorable and you get so close
(18:20):
to your, you know, fellow campers in that week or whatever it
is, and you just have a lot of shared experiences that it's,
there's a lot of freedom. It's just such a different environment than
your normal day to day. You know, there's so many elements to it
that make it memorable and really, really fun.
I, I'm serious about the camp. I think we need to go
to like, adult summer camp and do all the
(18:41):
fun things. Like I want to do, I want to kayak and
hike and you know, play those games, I
don't know, ping pong, whatever. I don't know. Like, come on,
summer camp. Come on. We need to make it
happen.
>> Corinne (18:54):
Well, okay. But also like, that's why we, you know, we've talked about
like, going to concerts and stuff. And it's like as a, as a,
you know, midlife woman now, when I go to
a concert, I'm like, oh, this is
actually so much of why I went
to church is because of this collective
experience. I just didn't know
(19:14):
it, it could exist outside of church.
Right. Like, what I want is, I want
this. This. You know, like, you and I, we stood with
our girls at the ERAs tour, you know, I mean,
like that moment of, you know,
everyone singing and dancing and
having this, you know, this what Brene Brown would,
(19:35):
you know, used to talk about collective joy.
That it was like, oh, this is actually
just what I was seeking in church, this
feeling. And it really wasn't about,
a specific belief in God, although it does
feel very divine and holy in many ways.
It really wasn't about those songs as much
(19:56):
as it was about this collective energy and being
together. And you know, for The ERAS tour,
also, feeling safe, you know, and being around
people who are enjoying the same things that you're enjoying.
So that connection like you were speaking to is what
we're, we are wired for. and there's
so many ways that we can experience that.
(20:17):
I mean, you know me, I'm like, I, I, I
actually, I actually do want to
get women together outside and you know, whether it's like
snowboarding or horseback riding, like, you've
talked about, like, you know, doing those things that
we loved so much, when we were
younger. And it's like, why aren't we all doing that together
(20:37):
in midlife? Right? Like, yeah.
>> Sarah (20:40):
So, yeah, it makes me think, I saw just the other day,
it was a meme and it said something like,
we're not saying, what, do you want to hang out anymore?
We're saying, do you want to go play? Like, bring back play?
Like, do you want to go play? Remember? I was like, oh, I love
that so much. Yes, I want to go play.
>> Corinne (20:57):
Me too.
>> Sarah (20:58):
Yeah, I do that. Big dreams.
>> Corinne (21:00):
I feel like that's going to, I know. I feel like that's going to be another
conversation. Yeah.
>> Sarah (21:34):
Okay. So I'm curious as you were sharing some of
your, your faith, origin story, your lore.
you know, I'm curious what your, like,
what your actual how
much God was. And like seeking God
was a piece of the, the
church, you know, experience. Like of all the different ways you could
(21:56):
have fun, of all the different ways you could have sought out
kind of those mountaintop experiences to choose church. I'm
just curious, like, was that, was that
a part of the faith story for you or was it
not at that point?
>> Corinne (22:10):
Yeah. So I think what's
interesting is that where I grew
up, I had
a large circle of friends
that, where everything revolved around
religion. So I had a, you know, kind of
that close concentric circle of friends that were
(22:30):
all different versions and iterations
of Christian traditions. and we,
I'm literally still friends with all of them today.
So, those lasting relationships, even
though we didn't, we weren't always,
exactly the same in our religious
expressions. we kind of had this core
connection that really, you know, for some of my
(22:52):
friends goes back as far as like third grade.
and that was always true. And then we were a part of
this bigger concentric circle of friends that was
heavily lds, Mormon. So
living here in the valley, in the,
in the town that we lived in, that was a
really big part of just my social
(23:12):
circle. So it Wasn't really like
always necessarily about,
specific beliefs in God, as much as, like,
everybody was religious in some way
in, in terms of my social
upbringing. But what was interesting is that the
older I got, the more I started to realize the differences
(23:33):
and, and, but at the same
time, we were all just having a good time. Everybody was just having fun. Everybody was
doing everything together. There didn't always,
feel like big separations. And that was
sometimes part of the conversation and a lot of times not.
And, you know, many ways it didn't matter. It
wasn't until,
(23:54):
later on for me in, in high school
where. Okay, I'm going to tell you a story. Okay.
>> Sarah (23:59):
Okay. Oh, yes, my m. Favorite. I'm leaning in.
>> Corinne (24:03):
So I, I went on a date with this
boy who is lds and at
that time I didn't know him very well, but it
was like a summer, a fun summer date. And, you
know, we had worked together and, you know, it
was super casual, no big deal. So we
go to his house to stop by to
(24:23):
grab something on our way out on the state
that we're going to go on. And, and I remember standing
in his kitchen. We were literally at his house for like 10
minutes. Remember, standing in his kitchen
and his dad walked in and his
dad kind of looked me up and down and he goes,
oh, what ward are you in? And
(24:44):
you're not being Mormon? I said, oh, you know, and that was no big
deal. I had had a million parents ask me, you know,
things assuming that I was part, ah, of the Mormon Church,
and I was just always Mormon adjacent. So, so
anyway, he, he's like, oh, what word are you in? And
I said, oh, I'm not, I'm not Mormon. And he looks
at his son and he goes, and he chuckles and he goes, well,
(25:04):
you can take that one home. And I
was like, standing there like a deer in the
headlights. Like, I had had,
I had been in that situation a million times. I had never
had somebody's parent
tell, like, basically say that I needed to go
home, that I, I was out. That was a
who's in, who's out moment for me. And I
(25:27):
was, you know, by no means did I think everybody's parents
were like that. I had never had that experience in all my years of
having Mormon friends and having, you know, dated
Mormon boys. That was never a part of my experience.
But as a young woman, in that
moment, I was like, oh, we
can all have a good time, but at the end of the day, it's
(25:47):
who's in and who's out.
>> Sarah (25:49):
Wow.
>> Corinne (25:49):
And that was, like, this moment of be of, like, clarity
for me. That was, like, really jarring. And the
kid, oh, bless his heart. I mean, how awkward would that be, right?
He was so apologetic and, like, really
awkwardly, like, actually took me home.
>> Sarah (26:03):
Oh, my goodness.
>> Corinne (26:05):
But in my mind, I was like, who?
Like, I just dodged a bullet, right? But, like,
actually, that became something that was tremendously
formative for me because I was never.
I was never believing in God
because I was afraid of hell or because I was afraid
that God wouldn't love me if I, you know, didn't believe X, Y
(26:25):
and Z. I was always just more curious about what was true about
the world. I was always more like, well,
what's true about the world? And so I would try something
on for size and feel like, no, that doesn't feel
like what's true about the world. And I would try this over here, and I would try that over there. So I
was always wrestling, always evaluating,
always asking questions, and. And I knew that
(26:46):
I didn't believe the same things that my Mormon friends believed.
but I didn't ever think that it was
going to be such a dividing factor.
So the reason I tell that story is because
later on in life, as I started unraveling my
own faith systems and really
allowing myself to set down everything
(27:06):
I thought I knew for sure and put everything back
on the table and give myself permission to examine
it, I. I was starting to
realize that maybe the faith systems that I had been a
part of weren't that different from that
moment where that kid's dad was like, well,
she's out. You know, where I was like, you know,
(27:27):
a lot of the experiences that I've had and a lot of
experiences that people I know have had
have made me think that maybe
our faith systems aren't all that
different. Maybe there's a lot more in common
than I would have once thought. So,
you know, that is kind of like a tie from
(27:49):
one of my younger year, you know, an experience that I had
during my younger years to, you know, fast forwarding way
forward to how I began to think
about my own faith systems and
the ideas of who's in and who's out. And that really
kind of kind of started that ball rolling for me.
But I think in those younger years,
(28:10):
having taken so much of that and placed it squarely on my
own shoulders, that was the beginning
stages of me just really walking down
every path I could think of to figure out
what was true about the world.
>> Sarah (28:25):
Wow.
>> Corinne (28:26):
So, yeah. I don't know. Did you grow
up with the faith that you had taken on
yourself? Did you grow up with a sense of
a fear of hell or a fear of disappointing
God or, you know, what was really the driving
factor for you in what you did or didn't believe?
>> Sarah (28:44):
Hey, you know, I think in some ways it's similar to what
you've described. I think I.
I was just the. The kid
who always kind of had her head in the clouds,
was always dreamy, was always feeling. It was just
always a very spiritual. I've been always a very
spiritual person. So the idea of
there being something bigger than myself was
(29:07):
not, a leap. It was sort of like. I think I came
into the world assuming that even though I didn't have language for it at
the time, it just was. It didn't feel,
difficult to accept the possibility. It felt
really true. but I didn't have any
handles for that or any language for that or any
boxes for that. And that is what church
(29:27):
gave me. They handed me some boxes and they said, this is
what God is. That thing that you're connected to.
It's God. The way to get to God is through
Jesus. And, yeah, you're either
in or you're out. and
I. I didn't have a reason to question
it. It's like, oh, okay, okay. Well,
(29:48):
I guess that makes sense. This God, this, the way
that Jesus lived, what I'm learning, that all feels like,
okay, all right. You know, and. And it really just
felt like I think if I. I, sometimes
wonder, you know, if I had been handed
a different box with a different religious label,
would that have made just as much sense to me?
(30:09):
You know, and I would have m. Moved forward in that religion or
in that denomination or in that. Whatever that. That
belief system. I really.
It didn't. It wasn't that I was out looking
for explanation.
never really been hungry to, like,
understand God. I
(30:29):
think it was more, the experience
of someone saying, oh, that, that. That
thing that you feel, or that, you know, gut sense
you have, that's the Holy Spirit that they gave me names and
labels for what I already.
The way I was already walking through the world. Does that make sense?
>> Corinne (30:47):
Oh, my gosh, yes. And it's like, of
course. Like, that is you to a
T. And the
idea of the box being handed to you, like,
that's such powerful imagery
for something that you already knew or something that you
already felt inside that you just
(31:08):
didn't have language for. I think about
My quest to kind of figure out what was true about the
world and within the
Christian tradition, it's like, well, here's what's true. This
is the only thing that's true, right? Like, and it's like
m true, you know, with a capital T kind of
thing. And that certainty was
(31:28):
so reassuring to me
that, like, oh, well, there is something
that's true. And I. I think that
looking for that. That's the box I was looking for.
I wanted somebody to hand me the.
>> Sarah (31:43):
Box labeled true M so
that I could.
>> Corinne (31:46):
So then I could relax. Cause I just. Whatever
was true, I. Whatever was right,
I just wanted to be on that path. So then, like, once
you found it, it was like, oh, okay, good. Well, check,
that's done. At least I know I'm on the right path, you know?
And so there was a. A, A. The
romantic notion of
(32:07):
certainty.
>> Sarah (32:09):
Was,
>> Corinne (32:10):
Something that I felt so
much reassurance in. But then I
quickly developed a death grip on
certainty. And once I
felt like I had it, I did
not want to let it go. I would
wrestle it to the ground and find some way,
(32:30):
shape, or form to. To make it
fit. I was. It was gonna fit.
I just had. It was like, my job to figure out how to make it
fit. And so once I felt like I
had that level of certainty,
who, prying it out of
my own hands was.
(32:51):
And loosening that death grip and holding it
loosely enough to be able to be
intellectually honest and tell myself the truth about my own life,
like, that was the hard part. Nobody
else was trying to wrestle it from me. I had to.
I was the one that had to pry my fingers
off of that certainty that I had fallen in
(33:11):
love with.
>> Sarah (33:13):
Fallen in love with the certainty. Wow.
Yeah, that's. That's a lot.
Like, I just want to sit. Sit in that for a minute. Because I
think that is. There's so many layers
to that. And in the similar
way that. That. That
very honest and earnest desire
(33:34):
for truth, just. Just show me. Tell me
what's true. Show me what's true.
And, you know, you. You
were handed a box that said, this
is true. And
why. Again, why. Why question it? Right? Why question
the box? Right within the box that. That
(33:55):
there's. This is. This is a certain
thing. It's almost like, okay, well, check. Got that. I'm
on the right path, like you said. And, it's
interesting to me, as I. As I was thinking
kind of about the faith I was handed
is if I go, like, on a. If I stretch
Out a timeline of my faith. And I go, okay, here is when I
(34:16):
first started getting curious. And what is this? Oh,
here's the box. It's got. Okay, here's the religion. It's this
like, as I look at my
growth over the years as a person, and if we just.
Let's just like, put a stop at like,
graduating high school.
>> Corinne (34:32):
Okay.
>> Sarah (34:32):
Just those. Those early first 18 years of life, like.
>> Corinne (34:35):
Yeah, yeah.
>> Sarah (34:36):
that. How much.
In some ways, how much smaller
my, like, social
network connection, community, world,
ah, perception,
understanding how much of
my own, like my framework for the
(34:57):
way I viewed my life. Not just when
I would attend a service on a Sunday or a midweek or
whatever, but like, it. The way that the belief
system infiltrated everything
about my life and my. The way I interacted
with it, the more involved I
became in the church I was a part
(35:18):
of over the years. So, like, the more
involvement compounded by the amount of time
as I was growing. And really those are very
developmental years. Those are years you are
building who you are. You're also building
your understanding of the world and your place in it. And
so to. To have spent those
(35:38):
years of my life within a system that
consistently, told me
what to think, what to believe, what to feel,
how to look, how to be.
And really that. That sense as you were
talking about, you know, the experience you had with the
boy that you were. You were
seeing, is the exclusivity
(36:01):
of. Of the church. You know, it was
like us versus them, that the communication was,
almost like there's something wrong with
these people that aren't a part of this community that you have to
go save them or fix them or educate them.
And that. That was the loving thing to do. That
was the work to do. And it was
(36:21):
all the messaging was. So much of the messaging, at least
in my experience, was, you know, invite them
to church, like, get your people
here to us. And
rather than there being a, messaging of, hey,
bring. Bring what you have here to your people.
Even, you know, it was just very, It became the
(36:42):
center of so much of my life over the years
that after a while, you may think we.
We stop questioning. Almost like we
don't know how far we've come from ourselves, how
separated from ourselves we've become, in exchange
for. For belonging and community. And really with
every belief that we're just. We're doing the right
thing, we're
(37:05):
helping, we're saving. Literally, we're
saving souls. Is there anything more
noble than that? Right? So we had
like, the motivation we had the inspiration
and we had the handbook, which was.
>> Corinne (37:18):
Yeah, the Bible.
>> Sarah (37:20):
Here you go.
>> Corinne (37:24):
Sam.
(37:58):
I think about the desire, the
obsession with certainty and the desire to be
right. And the
unfortunate part about that is
that within a system
that tells you that you're the
one who's right and everyone else
(38:18):
is wrong also then
comes with a mandate to
convince everyone else
of what you think you're right about. So whether
it's the benevolent
tone of saving souls or whether
it's an academic pursuit
of convincing someone of your point of view,
(38:43):
the saviorism
is something that
was in the box. That was one of
the boxes that we
both, were handed and then grew so weary
carrying. But I think that whether you
believe that you're saving a lost soul or whether you
believe that you're convincing someone
(39:07):
of your right way of thinking,
those are dangerous waters that we were taught to swim in
from a very young age.
>> Sarah (39:15):
That's well said.
>> Corinne (39:16):
And I think that that has been.
I'll speak for myself. That has been one
of the heaviest
threads of unraveling that
I had to untangle was
how long I had spent thinking
that I was right and other people were wrong.
(39:37):
So much to
the surprise of, you know,
what people close to me or people that I hadn't
talked to in years. Like, being able
to grow so
incredibly comfortable with the idea of being wrong
has been one of the greatest joys of my life.
>> Sarah (39:57):
Oh, okay. We just need a minute for that.
He's gonna hold that. One second.
>> Corinne (40:02):
Wow.
>> Sarah (40:03):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (40:03):
Like, understanding that I could be totally wrong
and being so genuinely okay with
that is so
180 degrees opposite
of how I lived most of my life within
faith systems.
>> Sarah (40:20):
Yep.
>> Corinne (40:20):
I could be wrong. I could be totally wrong.
And I have never
felt more free.
>> Sarah (40:27):
Yeah, well, it's like.
>> Corinne (40:29):
Than coming to terms with that.
>> Sarah (40:30):
Yeah. It's. It's the. Your
there's. The stakes aren't as high. Right. Like
your, Your eternal soul and salvation isn't
on the line in the same way. And
that, that forces you in a sense to.
You have to be right. There's so much at stake. You have to be
right. This is the path you chose. You didn't choose
(40:52):
wrong versus taking all
of that pressure, all that weight that you said, placing it on your
shoulders, taking it off, and not. Not needing to be
responsible for being right about everything all the
time. In the same way as accepting. Not needing to
be responsible for convincing everyone, you know,
to think and believe the same way you do.
>> Corinne (41:13):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (41:14):
Which I, That points the needle toward
the, the greater conversation of
deconstruction. And really, you know, if we,
if we plant our 18 year old selves
and, and look at the rest of the map
stretching out beyond, I think that's where a lot of that
conversation is swirling for us and definitely
(41:35):
waters we're gonna keep dipping our toes in.
>> Corinne (41:39):
Absolutely. I think we've got some
really beautiful stories to share and as
well as like you said, stretching out the map.
And I think that there's there's intention in that, you
know, because the more life we live,
the more we realize the less we know
and the further we go and the
(42:00):
more we experience. it's all formative. It
all shapes and reshapes and helps us unravel
and rethread. So I don't know, I kind
of, I kind of think that's where we're going in, in this next part of the
conversation.
>> Sarah (42:13):
Yeah, this might have to be a.
>> Corinne (42:14):
Two parter, I think. So let's
come back, let's come back and get into that.
>> Sarah (42:20):
Let's do.
>> Rebeca (42:37):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah
Carter and Corinne Shark on the 1C Story Network.
For more information about this and all of
our stories, please visit justonec.com. That's j u s t o n e c
dot com.
>> Corinne (43:09):
m. You know, that's my motto. If it's not fun, I don't
want to do it.
>> Singer (43:13):
The 1C story network
for the love of stories.
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