June 29, 2025 • 54 mins
Deconstruction Part 2 - Learning and Leaving
Sarah and Corinne discuss the experiences within and outside the church that led to their independent deconstructions of faith. From seeing behind the curtain of how churches operate to experiencing other faiths, they each came to similar places in a similar timeframe.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
Sarah and Corinne discuss the experiences within and outside the church that led to their independent deconstructions of faith. From seeing behind the curtain of how churches operate to experiencing other faiths, they each came to similar places in a similar timeframe.
To connect with Sarah or Corinne, find them on Instagram:
@heysarahcarter @thesaltyshark @sarahandcorinne
For more information about Spiritual Pyro, visit www.spiritualpyro.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
>> Sarah (00:02):
For all the Match Strikers, this
is.
>> Corinne (00:05):
Spiritual pyro,
because that's what we do is we dance on. we dance.
>> Sarah (00:25):
No one can see we dance, but.
>> Corinne (00:26):
We dance it out.
>> Sarah (00:27):
We're often dancing. Hi.
Are you ready for Deconstruction part
two? Oh, my goodness.
>> Corinne (00:34):
We were born for this one.
>> Sarah (00:37):
Deconstruction feels like such a scary
word. It feels like such a loaded word, even though I know it's one
we've been like. It's been part of our
vocabulary for so many years at this point. But
it is, I think, important to recognize
the topic is. Is big. It's
like a. In the worlds that we're coming from,
(00:57):
deconstruction is a big word, and it can mean a lot of different things to
different people.
>> Corinne (01:02):
Yeah. As, we say, it's loaded.
It's. It's so loaded. But also, I want
to recognize the fact that we were kind of doing
this in our lives and in our faith
systems before there was this actual term,
you know, that was colloquial and, you
know, kind of commonplace. So I think there
(01:22):
was a. A sense of like, oh, is that what I've been
doing all this time is deconstructing? Oh,
okay. You know, so that kind. I think we were kind
of. We. Our journey kind of predates
that term, at least in the general sense.
>> Sarah (01:37):
We're like old school. We're like the O.G.
>> Corinne (01:40):
Oh, geez.
>> Sarah (01:41):
I'm pretty sure people have been deconstructing for a lot longer than we have, but.
>> Corinne (01:44):
Pretty sure.
>> Sarah (01:45):
Pretty sure.
>> Corinne (01:48):
But at the same time, we often talk about how we've
kind of always been deconstructing.
Like, I can't really think of a time when I wasn't
questioning or unraveling or,
you know, dissecting, you know, beliefs. Like,
I. It was kind of always what I was
doing, so I never really. There's not really like an initiation
(02:08):
point or like an entry point. It was just kind of
always there for me. What about you?
>> Sarah (02:14):
Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of what I was speaking,
to even last week was, was that
the way I came to faith was real or
to the specific religion that I came to,
was born of a very
strong part of me that always felt connected to something bigger than
myself, that always easily
(02:36):
accepted the idea of there being a spiritual
life or spiritual world or somehow that we're connected to
something spiritual. and what
I was told was that his name is Jesus, and that.
That. That made sense to me in all the ways I
needed it to. And that worked. That was a
system that I walked in for a long time and
(02:56):
really didn't see any problem with
it or any concerns. It
worked as a name for something that existed
before I even found it
within me. So, yeah,
I think that when I think about
deconstruction for myself, it's really, It has
(03:16):
felt like more of a parting
of alignment. So
I've been on the same sort of direction of like,
moving toward whatever the word is we
want to use for it, love, source, God,
bigger than ourselves, that idea.
And for a while it felt like Christianity was
(03:36):
like parallel line. And that
it worked. And then deconstruction for me started
when suddenly they weren't parallel lines
anymore and I had to start digging into, like,
what about that and why and what does that mean?
And started having to examine the faith that I'd
chosen on a level that I really hadn't before.
And that, to me would be like, what
(03:59):
if there was like, a point in time when I'm like, this is
what deconstruction looks like for me? That would be
how I would describe it.
>> Corinne (04:07):
M. That's so interesting that.
I mean, honestly, because we're having this specific
piece of this conversation for the first time right now. So, So the
imagery that you just provided about
how you've always been moving forward toward
something and this faith system
(04:27):
was part of that, and then wasn't part of that based
on whether or not it was in alignment with what you.
We're already pursuing. That is
a. Actually a really beautiful and honestly
helpful way to think about this whole process.
Because if. If I plug in
my desire to find out what's true about the world, and if
(04:48):
I, you know, and I think everybody can plug in that thing
that religion was doing for them in
whatever sense, and if you plug that in as the variable,
right, and it's. If I'm just still pursuing
what's true about the world and. And
Christianity in its different forms
and the different systems that I was a part of was just kind of
(05:08):
part of that journey. But I'm still headed in the same direction. It's just
no longer. That's no longer in alignment. So it's almost like
I moved through that and then continued on
after that. I'm still pursuing what's true
about the world. It's just no longer a
dichotomy of, Or a binary.
It's so much bigger and broader and more expansive
(05:28):
than I ever knew before. I thought it was
black or white, right or wrong, this or that, in
or out, and But I've moved. I've
moved through that into this much
bigger, much more expansive and inclusive
understanding of what's true about the world. And that,
it's not just one thing or another. It's so many
(05:49):
beautiful things are true about the world
and how mind blowing that is. So thank you for that. Actually,
that is just a real. That's just, honestly, like a helpful little
tool. I'm just gonna put it in my pocket. I love
that.
>> Sarah (06:02):
Put it in your pocket.
Yeah.
>> Corinne (06:06):
I.
>> Sarah (06:06):
There's a. There's what. What that
way of thinking does too, is it allows us
to. It removes any, like,
tension or frustration or anger
or it. To me, it alleviates. It
allows it to be a part of the story and. And not
necessarily to. To come at it with
angst or, I don't know.
(06:29):
It can just be a part of the story, of our story
that existed and that walked with us for a time in
a way that served some really beautiful,
beautiful pieces that helped me grow in a lot of ways. I don't
have a resentment for the faith
that I experienced for the time I did. I think the
tension for me became when those points
(06:49):
of separation sort of began of like, the begging the
question of, like, why is this not feeling like it's
fitting anymore? That's
when the tension began for me within my
own. Within my place within the faith that I was in. This
really was the beginning of the separation. And
now I can look at it and go, I
recognize that it was all part of the process. But
(07:12):
when you're in it and you're experiencing really that first.
Those first moments when your faith isn't matching what you.
What you believe to be true. And then what do you
do with the gap of that? What do you do with the tension of that? because
usually you're going to find yourself
already pretty heavily invested in a faith community
within a religion with. I mean, you're talking years,
(07:33):
potentially at that point of. Of investment in all kinds
of ways into that faith, and then suddenly now
it doesn't fit anymore. What do you do.
>> Corinne (07:47):
Sam?
(08:14):
We can hold on to a measure of the beauty
that we did experience and the way that those, you
know, worldviews and faith systems helped us grow.
Also, I think it's important to
acknowledge that most of the time,
the fondness that we are able to look back
with is because those were points in our
(08:35):
journey where we had not really dug into the history.
We had not really dug into the origin stories
of the things that we were a Part of. And once
we started to do that,
that's where a lot of that alignment started to deviate.
So the fondness that we can look back with is
often when we just didn't know
(08:57):
a lot about the history of our
traditions. So I think that there's a
lot there. And you, you know,
wherever we, entered into
those places of whether it was research
or learning from other groups of
people and different perspectives about, you know, the
(09:18):
damage done, it's not like the
religion or the faith system just changed all of
a sudden recently and we were no longer in alignment with it.
It's that we, actually started getting more educated.
And the more that we did that, the more that we started
looking with some intellectual honesty at, where,
you know, what has been done in the name of
(09:39):
this God throughout history.
Once we've started looking at that with a little bit more
clarity and, you know,
willing to look at some really
difficult things, we started being able to
trace those lines of harm
into our current spaces.
So I want to acknowledge that. That it's not just,
(10:02):
oh, you know, back. It was just better back then. No, it was
just that we didn't know. We didn't know what we had
been a part of for so long.
>> Sarah (10:09):
Right.
>> Corinne (10:10):
Yeah, we were. There's a grief in that.
>> Sarah (10:12):
There's definitely a grief in that. Which I, I would love for us
to explore at some point, too.
It's the moment we have to acknowledge that
we were participating in
perpetuating a system that. That historically
causes a lot of harm.
And just because we didn't know, it doesn't mean that we
(10:33):
don't have to own our place within that.
>> Corinne (10:35):
Exactly right.
>> Sarah (10:36):
And it is our responsibility to educate ourselves. And
then once we know, we can't unknow. Right.
>> Corinne (10:43):
And that is. That goes. That goes way beyond
current headlines. That goes way beyond
what's happened over the last eight years. Like, that goes
way beyond current conversations
about what Christianity looks like today or what the church looks like
today. This is. These are also questions about origins,
you know, so it's. And everything in between. So I think
(11:04):
that that's a. That's a much bigger,
chunk to bite off, than we have time for in this
conversation. But it's important for us to have that kind of as the
foundation as we're talking about these stories.
And honestly, it really is a foundation. I mean, think
about you and I. We both
kind of deviated from the path that we had
(11:24):
been on and found ourselves
in the same space at the same time.
>> Sarah (11:31):
We Have a history of doing that, don't we?
We've done that a few times.
>> Corinne (11:36):
Right?
>> Sarah (11:37):
Because I'm thinking, let's see, we left
off. I think we left off at, like, age 18,
you know, like in our last. In part one.
And so, I mean, moving forward from there. For
me, that was, I was
set to go to an art school out in
California. And last minute,
the summer before, I decided to go to
(11:59):
a small Christian college in California
because I really felt that God was
calling me to go there. and
now I look at that and I go, sweet baby girl.
But at the time, I was so, so sure that I was
doing the right thing. And so ended up
at this Christian college. And that
(12:20):
campus is where you and I met for
the first time. That is where the story
begins for us.
>> Corinne (12:27):
So that's, where we first got.
We were in cahoots for the first time.
>> Sarah (12:33):
That was the beginning of our cahoots. I love that for
us.
>> Corinne (12:36):
Okay. But what's interesting is how you were on
this one path and then you jumped
ship and came to that college. I was
on a different path. I was finishing
my education degree. And then, I will
never forget, the senior pastor of our church at the time
was like, hey, I've got this opportunity. What do you think about it?
(12:57):
And it was like, what do you think about going
to live in a college dorm and work with college students?
And I was like, that sounds totally fun.
And at the time, Eric was like, what? You know, that was
like nothing that would. That, you know, we had ever talked
about or planned on. And that was actually his alma mater. And
I was like, yeah, that sounds like a great time. We should totally go do it. And
(13:18):
this was like, months before, and
we packed up and packed up the U
Haul and, you know,
drove to California and moved into a
college dorm. Like. Like, what?
What?
>> Sarah (13:33):
And young, right?
>> Corinne (13:35):
I know, but I mean, you know, I mean, that's. It's the truth,
though, because all I've ever been looking for is what's
true about the world and a big adventure, you know, And I think
anybody again, for better, for worse,
Anybody who's ever looked at my
decision making and been like, ooh, I don't know about that, you
know, that's.
>> Sarah (13:53):
I've.
>> Corinne (13:53):
I've been searching for that big adventure forever.
and really believing that whatever
God is is surely the biggest
adventure of them all. Right? That's what
I really wanted to be true. So I've got
this opportunity to. All my friends are, like, buying their first
house and like, you know, starting their
(14:14):
careers, and I'm like, I'm going to go live in a college dorm and
work with college kids, and they're just like, oh, okay.
Like, sweet baby girl. Okay. Yeah, they
were, There was a lot. I'm surprised there was not an
intervention. But then we met.
>> Sarah (14:28):
I mean, who knows if we ever would have
if you hadn't made that choice.
>> Corinne (14:32):
I know. Well, you were the girl on the third floor
who always had a massive
canvas in process.
You were always painting something. And that was my
intro to you was you were this incredible
fine artist who, like, also just happened to be going
to school, you know?
Yeah.
>> Sarah (14:53):
I'm thinking, Was it. Was it the pneuma? Was I,
like, passing you the pneuma? Yeah. Which at the time, I don't
even know how to explain it now it feels like, so
old now. But at the time, it was there, like, these
mini teachings on
dvd.
>> Corinne (15:07):
It was revolutionary.
>> Sarah (15:09):
It was revolutionary at the time when.
>> Corinne (15:12):
Rob Bell started doing
these little micro sermons on
dvd. And do you remember how, like, the camera would
follow him as he walked? And that was like, the thing, right, is that,
he was, like, walking with the camera. It was unlike anything
anybody else was doing. And you showed up
at my apartment door and you were like, I've got something
you're gonna love. And you handed me these
(15:34):
turquoise discs and you were like, this
is super in the
vault. You can't share these. I was like, oh, my gosh.
>> Sarah (15:42):
I'm like, I love her. Let's be friends.
>> Corinne (15:45):
I know. I was like, I'm getting a sneak peek at something
really big. I don't even know who this is or what it's about, but I
want it. I want in, you know? So that was. Yeah, those. That was our.
That was literally our cahoot.
>> Sarah (15:55):
It was. It was. We've been. We've been trouble for
a long time.
Yes.
>> Corinne (16:03):
anyway, that was.
That was my intro, though,
to this understanding that you
could be a professional. Christian
was like, wait a second. You mean
I can get paid to
do things I'm already doing
okay? It was like, all right.
(16:25):
It was fun, you know, like all of the programming
and all of the relationship building and all that kind of stuff that I
already loved. And. But it was kind of
my intro into this industry
side of belief
where people were making careers out of it.
So I was like, oh, I guess this is normal. I
(16:47):
guess this is a normal thing that people
are, you know, they're just a career
Christian. And I was kind of Like, I feel like if anybody
could be a career Christian, I could like, okay.
>> Sarah (17:01):
Career Christian? Yeah, like a professional
Christian. I mean that's, that's what a
pastor is. It is what a pastor is. I,
I agree with you though. When I, before I went to that,
that college, really, I hadn't been exposed to how
many different options, career wise, there were
to like how many different ways you could be a professional
(17:22):
and had no idea really what
went into the behind the scenes
element of a church and of
ministry at that time. And
that was eye opening, even to the
extent of a machine that in many
ways, the church can be. There's so
(17:42):
much that goes into your Sunday morning,
you know, service that you don't see.
Week, weekly.
>> Corinne (17:50):
The women's Bible study, the, the church camp,
you know, all of that.
>> Sarah (17:54):
Like the marketing department. I mean, I'm talking like,
like all the, Right. All the things that go into
it and that actually
end up leading to your, to what happens on a
Sunday.
>> Corinne (18:06):
Yeah.
Sam?
Okay, so tell me what you think about this, because I
(18:28):
rem. Because after, after I
worked at the college, I went on to
then work in women's, ministry
for a big mega church. And I remember before
I took that job, a friend of mine
who had been in vocational ministry for a long time, I remember
her saying, she was like, okay. She's
like, I know you're considering this. She's like, just
(18:51):
know that once you work for a church,
you will never just sit
in the pews ever again. You will never
be able to unsee what she's like. Once you've seen behind the
curtain and you know how it all works, you will never be able
to unsee that and just be a churchgoer
ever again. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's
(19:12):
fine. I'm like, yeah, I'm not surprised by that. You know, whatever.
I don't think I could have possibly prepared
myself for how true that statement would be. So I'm
just curious how that hits you.
Just that same idea.
>> Sarah (19:26):
Yeah, it's sort of like what they
say, if you like the restaurant, don't
go in the kitchen. It's better just to not know and just
sort of be blissfully unaware. Although
again, that tends to be, My
problem is I can't, I can't not ask the
questions. I want to know. I want it to be.
(19:46):
I want it to be if it's, if it's good, I want it to be good all
the way through. Not Just good, because they're showing us the
shiny part. Right. It's like meeting the wizard. Like, it's.
I have to meet the wizard. I need to know,
see the wizard. And that, that
has not,
doesn't always go so well. Right.
(20:07):
Yeah. And it is difficult because again, it's just
another, it's another off ramp,
where of alignment with our faith and ourselves.
It's another place to
explore. And I'm thinking about
a time several years
ago now at this point when, my husband was working
(20:27):
at a church and I had an art gallery. We were living
in California.
And I would teach these creative workshops.
I was in like a co op with other artists. We would do like
monthly shows. It was so cool
and so fun and I just
had the best time. And so you.
Yeah, I felt very me. And it was one of
(20:49):
the, it was one of the first times,
I think, in my
dynamic, like even like within my marriage, where
I was practicing some more independence
outside of the church world, which was,
you know, Steve's a pastor and so his
world, church world tends to be pretty all encompassing
when you're married to a pastor. The pastor's wife
(21:12):
title is pretty broad. And
this little space that I'd carved out for myself
was independent of that
world which I
found I really thrived in and was able to
bring even like back some parts
of myself into the equation. You talk about like me being
(21:32):
in college and painting all the time and yeah,
like, there was a lot of that I stepped away from
in such earnest effort to be a really good
pastor's wife and be super involved in the church and to be, you know, all
those things. And so, yeah, having this
space was sort of a reminder. It was a little, one of those little
flares of like, ooh, yep, there she is. Like, there she is. There she
(21:52):
is. Yeah, there she is.
>> Corinne (21:54):
Yeah, for sure.
>> Sarah (21:57):
Yeah. But, you know, it was not without
challenge because this was, this would be probably
like if there was one. If I'm looking at my, my
journey of life as a pathway. And
this is when one of those places where the
parallel lines of my faith didn't match up. and it
really was that I, I had this, I built this
(22:17):
beautiful community and I'd built this beautiful work.
And it wasn't, it wasn't under the banner of the church, it
wasn't labeled Christian, it didn't carry the church's name. It
wasn't, it wasn't, you know, done on church
campus. Yep. And that ended up
being, I hate to say
problematic, but, concerning
(22:38):
for some, because it's like, well, if you're doing this work, why
wouldn't you do it? Why wouldn't you do it for the church?
Why wouldn't you do that for the church? And
it really made me have to explore for myself,
like, what does. What is church and not church?
Because the conversations I'm having
in these creative workshops, the growth that I'm
(22:58):
seeing happen, like, the dynamics of connection and
community and friendship, like, all of that
feels.
Feels a lot like church.
And so really, what are we talking
about when we say church? Is it the label? Is it the space?
Is it the power, the control, the
(23:19):
responsibility? And is that something I want to
be handing off to someone else when it's something
that I've built? And honestly, a lot of the
people that came through my gallery doors
would not have felt safe to go through the church doors. like,
and those are. Those are my people. Like, that's. That's where
I wanted to be. And it was really one of the first
(23:40):
times that I had to explore, like, how far
can my faith take me if I'm continuing
to kind of almost like, there she is. Right. Take back some pieces
of myself or rediscover them. Now what do I do
when some pieces aren't quite fitting
within the church world?
>> Corinne (23:58):
Yeah. And you're finding yourself saying things
like, people that I care about
wouldn't feel safe. Like,
that. Those. Some of. There's sometimes that we have those moments
where it's like, you can't unhear. it. You
can't unthink, it.
>> Sarah (24:13):
Ah, you.
>> Corinne (24:14):
There's no. It's like a point of no return when you
admit it's like, well, what does that mean? So
how far can my faith go if people I care
about are not safe enough to
engage it?
>> Sarah (24:27):
Like, well, and like, it begs
the question, why don't they feel safe?
>> Corinne (24:32):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (24:32):
Right. And then you start pulling that thread, and that. That makes
things complicated pretty quickly.
>> Corinne (24:37):
Right, Right. You know,
I think so much
of our ability to be,
intellectually honest about what we believe has to
do with proximity. So
when we are. When
we're never outside of that system,
(24:58):
it's really difficult to get enough distance
or get enough perspective to start telling ourselves the truth about
our own lives. Right. But then we get a little bit of space
or we have a pocket of space, like your
studio, where we can exist. Or for me, like, it
literally took moving overseas for me to
have enough distance from the community
(25:18):
that I was a part of, from the community that I had built. Like,
it took me actually being on the other
side of the world to feel
safe enough to tell myself the truth about my own life.
And I will never forget the
very first time we went and visited Thailand. It
was kind of like a scouting trip. And I remember we were
(25:39):
taken to the big, big, big, big,
big Buddhist temple that's on the top
of the mountain in, in the city that we were
considering moving to. And
the woman who had given us this tour, she
was a white expat Christian woman
and, part of the organization that we were
(26:00):
being courted by. And we got
to the center of the temple, and in the
center of the Buddhist temple is a
tiled. It's open air, but it's a tiled
space. And you take off your shoes and you have to have a
shoulder covering out of respect. And
you walk in and there's a massive
golden chedi, which is a big tower
(26:23):
that's in the very center of this,
central temple space. And then there's this square
that goes around the outside of the Chedi. And
the devout Buddhists walk their prayer
seven times around that chedi.
There's an altar where there's offerings made,
flowers, money, beverages,
(26:45):
candles. Like anything that's an offering can be
placed here. And we're standing in awe.
Ah. And in reverence, honoring
this space that is different from any space we've
ever been in and really just taking
it all in. And I remember I have a photo that I took
looking up at the very pinnacle of
(27:05):
this gold tower. And I remember at
that moment that I was taking the photo, she said, you
know, just really casually she goes, you
know, I think we're all just trying to explain
something bigger than ourselves.
And that was this moment where I felt like the
floor was cracking
underneath me. Like she said
(27:27):
this quiet part out loud. She was
in the same communities that I'm a part
of. She's in the same, you know, spaces that I'm familiar
with. And yet she had the room
within herself to admit that
maybe there's not just one black and
white, right or wrong, in or out
(27:48):
truth about the world. Maybe all
any of us are doing is trying to explain
something bigger than ourselves. And that makes me think about
you talking about yourself as a young girl. And
really you just always knew there was something bigger. And so here I
was as a grown ass woman
who'd always kind of been deconstructing on some level, but really
(28:08):
needed some distance to be able to get really honest
with Myself. And it was
just this wave of
permission that just flooded, like,
this middle space of this temple in my mind, in my
imagination, just flooded with permission
to believe that we are all
(28:32):
just trying to do the same thing. We are all
just trying to explain something bigger than ourselves.
Every religion, for all of human history
has always been just
trying to explain something bigger than ourselves. And
when I allowed myself to really receive
that, I. Honestly, Sarah,
(28:53):
like, I don't know if
anything else has ever felt more true.
Like, that resonated deep in my soul in a way that
was not about a religion. It was not about
any one group of people at any one
group of. Or at, any one point in history. It was just
all of a sudden, this hierarchy
(29:15):
of belief that I had been handed
just. It just leveled the playing field.
And all of a sudden, all of us are exactly the same
forever and ever. And that was like
the cracks in the foundation of what I had always
believed. I mean, there
was no way to go back
(29:38):
after that moment.
>> Sarah (29:39):
Wow. Did it feel. Do you remember
how you felt? Like, did it feel. Did that feel scary
to kind of have that realization? Or did it feel liberating? Did
you feel, like, free? Did you feel terrified? What
did you.
>> Corinne (29:51):
So Liberating? Yeah, it felt like.
It felt like taking a big gasp of air
after holding my breath for a really long time.
>> Sarah (29:59):
It was like, almost like something
you all already, ah, knew is true. You were allowed
to exactly say or believe. Like it had been
there.
>> Corinne (30:08):
Exactly.
>> Sarah (30:09):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (30:09):
And it was just the. It was how she said it.
It was the moment she said it in. It
was the distance I had from
anything else that I'd ever felt beholden to. Like, it
was all of it. It was just this one tiny little
moment that cracked my world wide open.
>> Sarah (30:27):
Wow. That's incredible.
I have a moment similar that I'm
thinking of and where in
the same way as the revelation. Oh, my m.
Gosh. As the revelation sort of hit me.
M. It felt liberating. And
if I had thought about it before
(30:49):
experiencing it, the thought idea of it
would feel. Felt terrifying. Like, it feels like, oh, we
can't. That's not. We shouldn't. And it was,
back in Arizona. This was,
after leaving the church in Illinois, after my
life fell apart. And I
used to walk the desert trails, to try to put myself back
(31:11):
together. And I had this very specific
memory of hiking this hill
mountain near my place, getting to the
top, and the whole way up, I
intentionally didn't listen to music or a podcast or anything. I just
was quiet and listening and letting
things brew and stir. And I remember
having enough distance from our experience
(31:34):
to, to be able to feel more
settled. Like I felt. I didn't feel like I was
in like a triggered or high trauma moment. I
just was just finding those pieces of myself out along the
trail and getting to the top of that
mountain and just sitting on this
boulder and having
the dangerous thought that
(31:56):
this feels like church too. Like,
what if this, what if this can be
church too? And within that, not even just like
outside the four walls of the
Christian church, but
this very nearness of
who I call God was so
(32:17):
near and so crystal clear and so prevalent
in everything. In the air, in the
poppies and the cacti and the
jackrabbits. So crazy
crystal clear and near to me in a way that I
had actually felt really distanced from for all
those years that I spent trying to
find God and make it fit within the
(32:39):
walls of a church. And it
was one of those first moments for me where the
second that I thought it, I felt like the biggest
relief. Like it just felt like, oh, that has always been
true for me. And, and I spent a
lot of time and energy
trying to force it to
(32:59):
either not be or to find it within
a structure and a system where I really
didn't find it. and I expected
I would feel guilty or that that would feel scandalous or that I
would be like, you know, but all I felt was relief
and alignment. That
feels true, that feels right. And it feels like a returning
(33:19):
of a part of me that I now that
I know again, there's no going back.
Like she's coming with me, you know?
>> Corinne (33:28):
Oh, a returning. I keep thinking from
something you said earlier, that first little
bit about, moving through something
and it's no longer in alignment, but it's kind of what you've always been
pursuing. The idea of our becoming
and how we're always becoming,
we're always returning, we're always
(33:50):
evolving, we're always changing. That's the point.
That is what it means to be human. And so
to ascribe to a faith system
where the goal is, is to achieve
or to get to a certain spot and then white knuckle it and hold
onto it and never let go. Or else you're backsliding
or else you're being unfaithful or something like that,
(34:12):
you're. The goal is to stay. You get to that point and then
the goal is to stay. Once you figure out what is
true and once you convert or once you believe or whatever,
then the goal is, is to never let go.
And that is so
contrary to everything else about
us as human beings that we are always
becoming, we are always changing, always evolving.
(34:35):
And that is so much more in alignment with our true
nature. And, you know, some might say our design,
then any sort of stagnant, Anything
that resists change either
breaks or dies off. Right. Like,
when we think about biodiversity.
Right.
>> Sarah (34:53):
A.
>> Corinne (34:53):
Like the future of a species
depends upon
the micro and the macro evolution over time.
Small, small changes over time, that is,
and a variety of species and
a variety of genetics. So I just think it's so interesting with the
more diverse a population or,
(35:16):
a cross section is, the more that we
allow ourselves to become and evolve, the
more longevity we have, the more sustainability we have.
It's so beautiful. And everything,
though, that we are trying to do within a religious system is
so rigid and so stagnant and so
finite and so, Hard. Right. Ah.
(35:36):
So anyway, and in terms of our language and how we're feeling
and how we're talking about these things, there's these moments of
rigidity, and then there's these moments of release. And
I'm. I mean, I,
Like a professional white knuckler, you know? Like, I think that
my downfall has always been my death
grip. On whether it's certainty or my
(35:57):
plan for something or how I thought something would go or
whatever, that death grip is always
to my detriment. It's always when I've
been able to release that and hold something loosely with open
hands or palms up, that
I've been able to survive something.
So I just love that our language about it is, like, really
(36:17):
mirroring that as feeling deeply
true about the world and about ourselves.
>> Sarah (36:23):
Yeah. Something that you said makes me think
of a story that you actually do include
in Skye's the Good, Good Father part of
the story. You think about, like, talk about
deconstruction. And when you
said that, I thought. Yeah, it makes me. It makes me think of that moment
that you have because there was something interesting, and I'd love for you to tell
(36:44):
it, if you're comfortable with that. But there's the micro and the
macro. There's the internal and the external. And I just think that
that specific experience that you had felt like both at the same
time, which feels really powerful.
>> Corinne (36:55):
Yeah. Well, and before I tell that story, like, correct me if I'm wrong,
but what you were just talking about is part of one of your chapters,
right. When you're talking about that Climb up to the
top. And that realization.
>> Sarah (37:05):
Yeah, that's in super, bloom.
>> Corinne (37:08):
Yeah. So I feel like, you know, so much
of, so much of skies is
these little moments too. Good,
good Father. Again, another story from,
from Thailand is I had the
opportunity to go to a conference that was about.
It was an anti trafficking conference and a friend of mine,
(37:28):
was speaking there for the first time and a bunch of us went to
support her and to be a part of, you know, the weekend. And
it was really, really exciting. a lot of
people in the community that I was a part of went to
conferences on a regular basis. I never did. That wasn't, that
wasn't a part of my, purpose error.
This felt like a really big honor to be able to go to this conference
(37:48):
and participate in the broader sector in this
way. And
it was at the beginning of the conference and we had found a row
that fit all of our group that was there. And
the lights went down and all of
a sudden there was this very
familiar atmosphere
(38:10):
created where the lights went down
and the words on the screen went up and
the people on the stage started playing music
and everyone started to sing. And I was
like, oh, wait a second, I thought we were at a
conference, but I think we're at church. Like this feels a lot like a
megachurch service. You know, like, I didn't get that
(38:30):
memo. I thought we. And then I started to kind of
feel pretty naive because, you know,
really the people that were hosting the conference were a faith based
organization and it was
just this perpetual crossover between the
professional and the religious. And I had been thinking
that we were at a professional,
(38:51):
conference. And that was true.
but the religious component was much more significant than I
had, understood. So everyone starts
singing. And it was a song I recognized
from the moment that it started. And it was good,
good Father. And if anybody has an evangelical background,
you know. Exactly. You know that song?
>> Sarah (39:12):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (39:12):
You know that song, you could. You're singing it right now in your head.
and I remember feeling
really awkward because the words
are on the screen and I just
couldn't sing it. I've sung that song
a million times.
I could not sing it in that moment.
And I felt as if
(39:35):
surely there must be this massive
spotlight on me because in my
mind I was asking myself
some questions that I had never given myself
permission to ask. And it was only in that moment
when confronted with the lyrics of that song. So good,
good Father. over and over
(39:55):
again. And I was thinking to myself, we
are all here, ah, at this
conference talking about a really
difficult and often horrific
problem in the world. And
a good, good father would
do something about it. So I,
(40:15):
all of a sudden I had this, like, wait
a second, what am I saying? What am I,
what am I, what am I thinking here? Like, what, what are the
ramifications of this thought? You know, And I, and I, started to
think to myself, like, wait a second. Like,
a good, good father doesn't just say, doesn't just wait for
somebody else to handle the problem. A good, good father
(40:35):
doesn't turn away when
his children are being abused and harmed
and violated. A good, good father. And I. And this,
I mean, it was just the,
the ideas and the questions just kept
coming and it was like, well, what does it mean to be a good, good father?
What does that mean? What does that look like? And, and
(40:57):
even. It wasn't even about answering that
question, but it was about
allowing myself, daring to
allow myself to ask, is
this God that I've been handed
even good? If they are
good, wouldn't they
intervene? So, like, and, all of these
(41:20):
questions that, honestly, from an apologetics
perspective, there's always an answer. There's always an answer. I know all
the answers. I know all the bullet points. So this isn't about theology. This
is about my soul actually
having room to question. And so, but here's the
interesting part, is that I was
thinking to myself, surely there's a spotlight on me. Surely everybody
(41:41):
in this room can tell that I'm, like,
having, like, an existential crisis over here in the, in
the third row, and I'm not singing. And everybody
must know. And surely somebody in, like, you know, red
jackets or, you know, whatever, they're going to come and escort me out by
the elbow, you know, like, I just was feeling so
self conscious because I could not sing the song. And I look down my
(42:02):
row and I look at all of my beautiful friends.
Nobody is singing. Wow. and I was like,
wait a second, that's weird. How come nobody's singing? And it
wasn't until later on that I, like, said
something about it. I was like, you guys, I couldn't sing that song. And I was
just kind of, like, nervous to bring it up. And we had this
really big, beautiful conversation about. And everybody from
(42:23):
their own vantage points and for their own reasons and in their own ways
and coming to their own conclusions and all that. But it was
this beautiful conversation about asking
questions we've never allowed ourselves to ask before.
That was another moment that I Was like I, it wasn't
about coming to an answer about
the nature of God or anything like that. It was about
(42:45):
being honest with myself that I could even wonder
about the nature of God.
>> Sarah (42:51):
Yeah. It's those moments where it's like, am I even allowed
to think this, Am I even allowed to ask that question?
Am I even allowed to, to shift this,
this, the way I look at this or topic or whatever it is, like
it's. Something bad is going to happen now. Or like you said,
someone's going to escort me out. clearly they can tell.
>> Corinne (43:09):
Like I, Someone's gonna know which
something's gonna know. Yeah,
yeah. But, but I think really the thing that I came to at the end
of it, if anything, was what if
God isn't who they said he
was? And that could, that means a lot of different things
to me. Right. Because a lot of that is liberating. Like
a lot of that is beautiful and positive if God is not who they
(43:32):
said he was. Right. Like, if God's not even He.
If God's not. You know, like it allowed me,
it allowed me a kind of a another starting point
because again, kind of always been deconstructing. But
here was another layer that I had never
looked at. And it took, it took that
moment, you know, again, it was just the, that song
(43:52):
and that moment at that conference on that
topic, for me to be like, wait a minute.
What if God isn't what I have been
handed?
>> Sarah (44:01):
Yeah, what if.
>> Corinne (44:11):
Sam?
>> Sarah (44:22):
Mhm?
I think those moments,
like I have a few of those myself when I look
(44:44):
back at the deconstruction process
of my faith. And I
tried so hard not to deconstruct,
like I tried so hard to not ask questions like that or pay too
close attention to the songs we were singing or the verse
that was being read or the message being given from stage. If
I just didn't listen close enough,
(45:05):
I could. And if I just squinted just so. If I
just didn't go to that meeting, if I just. Then
maybe I could make it,
you know? and because I tried so
hard because to allow myself to
deconstruct the implications of that within
my life felt like an
implosion of my life because it's
(45:27):
so intertwined. Having a spouse that
works at a church, having so much of our community
and friendship built within church,
having my own, so much of my own identity and meaning m
and purpose built within the church. You
start pulling those threads and
everything, it feels like everything
(45:48):
starts to unravel and that is
terrifying. That's really terrifying. And it,
it, for me, it kept me,
within an incongruent system, a
system that was not in alignment with me for a lot
longer than was good for me. And
it really kept me from,
(46:08):
from that natural growth that you were describing earlier. Like even just
within my own humanity, within my own femininity, within my
own spirituality. I was stunted
because I was trying so desperately hard
to not deconstruct, but it was
already happening. I think deconstruction and evolution are
very similar, if not the same. That what
(46:29):
we look at is like a tearing down, a falling
apart, a leaving is really
just growing.
>> Corinne (46:37):
It's just, it's the becoming.
>> Sarah (46:39):
Yeah, it's the becoming. It's
inevitable. Becoming is inevitable as long as
we're alive.
>> Corinne (46:45):
It is. It is.
>> Sarah (46:47):
I.
>> Corinne (46:48):
When you talk about, like, how many
things are riding on
not deconstructing, you know, like,
that is so true, I think, for
so many of us. Because if we're
doing it right and you know,
air quotes, if we're doing it right, then
(47:09):
all of life is all for Jesus. I mean, I had that T shirt
right, that was like one of my church shirts.
If all of life is all for Jesus, then
every single part of your life is
woven into what you believe,
and what you believe is woven into every single
part of your life. So there is not any space in your
(47:30):
life that is safe from
the unraveling, you know, so,
you know, and that's a, that's a big gamble.
That's a big gamble to start pulling on those threads. So I
think you and I can recognize
that, you know, so many of the responses that
we get and so much of the people who reach out to us understand
(47:51):
that, that there's a cost, that it,
it costs us to tell the truth about our
own lives, to pull those threads, to allow ourselves
to become. That's not just a
pretty phrase like becoming is hard.
You know, it's hard, hard work. And also I
think it gives us so much compassion not only for
(48:12):
our younger selves and, and the mistakes that we
made along the way, but also for people who
are maybe just beginning that journey. That
it's, it's long and
not without.
really difficult spaces and that there's no
part of our lives that go untouched by that. So,
(48:34):
ugh, it's, it is so beautiful
and it's inevitable and it is also
some of the hardest work that we'll ever do.
>> Sarah (48:46):
Yeah, I think self compassion and
compassion for others is such a beautiful way to think about it
too. Again, it allows it to be expansive. It
allows everyone's process to be different. And
becoming doesn't always mean abandoning your faith. Right? Lots of
people find beautiful belonging within themselves, within a.
Within a healthy faith system.
(49:06):
It's the allowing ourselves to
tell the truth about ourselves, about our own journey, about
our own life, and allowing some room for that
without it needing to threaten those around
us or,
tear everything down to consider the possibility
that growth and deconstruction
(49:27):
don't have to be negative things, that they can be hard
and painful because growing is pain. There's growing pains.
But that it's not actually a tragedy, that
it's not actually something to be terrified of. Right.
Like, what would happen if we embraced it? And what would happen if we
embraced those around us who are in their own journeys and
their own processes? It's like who. It's what you say all the
(49:47):
time. Who would we even be? Who could we even be as a
humanity? And if we could make some more room
for one another? And who.
>> Corinne (49:56):
Who could our kids be and
our loved ones be if we freed them
up to do the same thing? If what we're
handing to our next generations
or to those around us is liberation
and freedom and becoming and
growth and beauty and a
tremendous victory of becoming
(50:18):
more and returning more to who we've always
been. That's what we want to down.
That's what we want to give to others and share.
That's that thing that feels most true
about the world to me. That's that thing,
maybe for you, that is what you've
always been pursuing from before anyone
told you or handed you a box. Right.
(50:42):
Like that feels. That feels like that
gasp of air,
you know, in that temple square for me.
On that mountaintop.
And what if it didn't have to be so loaded? What if it
didn't have to be eggshells and a fence?
What if it could be just so
(51:04):
freaking good and beautiful that
we want to talk about all the time? Like what if.
>> Sarah (51:11):
And if.
>> Corinne (51:11):
What if it could be that gorgeous? Yeah, I think
it is that gorgeous.
>> Sarah (51:16):
Yeah. We're finding that to be true.
>> Corinne (51:18):
I think like Allison says, you've never
been prettier. Like, you've never been
prettier, Sarah, than when you're talking about being on that.
That mountaintop and that gasp of
fresh air.
>> Sarah (51:31):
I feel the same way about you in that temple.
It's the, it's the liberation, liberation is gorgeous
celebration. Yeah.
Liberation's never been prettier. Let's make. Let's make
Liberation hot. Let's.
>> Corinne (51:44):
Let's make deconstruction hot again.
And on real, though.
>> Sarah (51:52):
There'S an outtake. We're out.
>> Rebeca (52:08):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with
Sarah Carter and Corrine shark on the 1C
Story Network. For more information about this
and all of our stories, please visit
just1c.com. That's
J-U S T O N E C
dot com.
>> Sarah (52:54):
that feels like a high five. Or
like a weird dance. Okay,
we're recording
>> Singer (53:01):
The 1C Story Network. For the love of stories.
For all the Match Strikers, this
is.
>> Corinne (00:05):
Spiritual pyro,
because that's what we do is we dance on. we dance.
>> Sarah (00:25):
No one can see we dance, but.
>> Corinne (00:26):
We dance it out.
>> Sarah (00:27):
We're often dancing. Hi.
Are you ready for Deconstruction part
two? Oh, my goodness.
>> Corinne (00:34):
We were born for this one.
>> Sarah (00:37):
Deconstruction feels like such a scary
word. It feels like such a loaded word, even though I know it's one
we've been like. It's been part of our
vocabulary for so many years at this point. But
it is, I think, important to recognize
the topic is. Is big. It's
like a. In the worlds that we're coming from,
(00:57):
deconstruction is a big word, and it can mean a lot of different things to
different people.
>> Corinne (01:02):
Yeah. As, we say, it's loaded.
It's. It's so loaded. But also, I want
to recognize the fact that we were kind of doing
this in our lives and in our faith
systems before there was this actual term,
you know, that was colloquial and, you
know, kind of commonplace. So I think there
(01:22):
was a. A sense of like, oh, is that what I've been
doing all this time is deconstructing? Oh,
okay. You know, so that kind. I think we were kind
of. We. Our journey kind of predates
that term, at least in the general sense.
>> Sarah (01:37):
We're like old school. We're like the O.G.
>> Corinne (01:40):
Oh, geez.
>> Sarah (01:41):
I'm pretty sure people have been deconstructing for a lot longer than we have, but.
>> Corinne (01:44):
Pretty sure.
>> Sarah (01:45):
Pretty sure.
>> Corinne (01:48):
But at the same time, we often talk about how we've
kind of always been deconstructing.
Like, I can't really think of a time when I wasn't
questioning or unraveling or,
you know, dissecting, you know, beliefs. Like,
I. It was kind of always what I was
doing, so I never really. There's not really like an initiation
(02:08):
point or like an entry point. It was just kind of
always there for me. What about you?
>> Sarah (02:14):
Yeah, I think, you know, a lot of what I was speaking,
to even last week was, was that
the way I came to faith was real or
to the specific religion that I came to,
was born of a very
strong part of me that always felt connected to something bigger than
myself, that always easily
(02:36):
accepted the idea of there being a spiritual
life or spiritual world or somehow that we're connected to
something spiritual. and what
I was told was that his name is Jesus, and that.
That. That made sense to me in all the ways I
needed it to. And that worked. That was a
system that I walked in for a long time and
(02:56):
really didn't see any problem with
it or any concerns. It
worked as a name for something that existed
before I even found it
within me. So, yeah,
I think that when I think about
deconstruction for myself, it's really, It has
(03:16):
felt like more of a parting
of alignment. So
I've been on the same sort of direction of like,
moving toward whatever the word is we
want to use for it, love, source, God,
bigger than ourselves, that idea.
And for a while it felt like Christianity was
(03:36):
like parallel line. And that
it worked. And then deconstruction for me started
when suddenly they weren't parallel lines
anymore and I had to start digging into, like,
what about that and why and what does that mean?
And started having to examine the faith that I'd
chosen on a level that I really hadn't before.
And that, to me would be like, what
(03:59):
if there was like, a point in time when I'm like, this is
what deconstruction looks like for me? That would be
how I would describe it.
>> Corinne (04:07):
M. That's so interesting that.
I mean, honestly, because we're having this specific
piece of this conversation for the first time right now. So, So the
imagery that you just provided about
how you've always been moving forward toward
something and this faith system
(04:27):
was part of that, and then wasn't part of that based
on whether or not it was in alignment with what you.
We're already pursuing. That is
a. Actually a really beautiful and honestly
helpful way to think about this whole process.
Because if. If I plug in
my desire to find out what's true about the world, and if
(04:48):
I, you know, and I think everybody can plug in that thing
that religion was doing for them in
whatever sense, and if you plug that in as the variable,
right, and it's. If I'm just still pursuing
what's true about the world and. And
Christianity in its different forms
and the different systems that I was a part of was just kind of
(05:08):
part of that journey. But I'm still headed in the same direction. It's just
no longer. That's no longer in alignment. So it's almost like
I moved through that and then continued on
after that. I'm still pursuing what's true
about the world. It's just no longer a
dichotomy of, Or a binary.
It's so much bigger and broader and more expansive
(05:28):
than I ever knew before. I thought it was
black or white, right or wrong, this or that, in
or out, and But I've moved. I've
moved through that into this much
bigger, much more expansive and inclusive
understanding of what's true about the world. And that,
it's not just one thing or another. It's so many
(05:49):
beautiful things are true about the world
and how mind blowing that is. So thank you for that. Actually,
that is just a real. That's just, honestly, like a helpful little
tool. I'm just gonna put it in my pocket. I love
that.
>> Sarah (06:02):
Put it in your pocket.
Yeah.
>> Corinne (06:06):
I.
>> Sarah (06:06):
There's a. There's what. What that
way of thinking does too, is it allows us
to. It removes any, like,
tension or frustration or anger
or it. To me, it alleviates. It
allows it to be a part of the story and. And not
necessarily to. To come at it with
angst or, I don't know.
(06:29):
It can just be a part of the story, of our story
that existed and that walked with us for a time in
a way that served some really beautiful,
beautiful pieces that helped me grow in a lot of ways. I don't
have a resentment for the faith
that I experienced for the time I did. I think the
tension for me became when those points
(06:49):
of separation sort of began of like, the begging the
question of, like, why is this not feeling like it's
fitting anymore? That's
when the tension began for me within my
own. Within my place within the faith that I was in. This
really was the beginning of the separation. And
now I can look at it and go, I
recognize that it was all part of the process. But
(07:12):
when you're in it and you're experiencing really that first.
Those first moments when your faith isn't matching what you.
What you believe to be true. And then what do you
do with the gap of that? What do you do with the tension of that? because
usually you're going to find yourself
already pretty heavily invested in a faith community
within a religion with. I mean, you're talking years,
(07:33):
potentially at that point of. Of investment in all kinds
of ways into that faith, and then suddenly now
it doesn't fit anymore. What do you do.
>> Corinne (07:47):
Sam?
(08:14):
We can hold on to a measure of the beauty
that we did experience and the way that those, you
know, worldviews and faith systems helped us grow.
Also, I think it's important to
acknowledge that most of the time,
the fondness that we are able to look back
with is because those were points in our
(08:35):
journey where we had not really dug into the history.
We had not really dug into the origin stories
of the things that we were a Part of. And once
we started to do that,
that's where a lot of that alignment started to deviate.
So the fondness that we can look back with is
often when we just didn't know
(08:57):
a lot about the history of our
traditions. So I think that there's a
lot there. And you, you know,
wherever we, entered into
those places of whether it was research
or learning from other groups of
people and different perspectives about, you know, the
(09:18):
damage done, it's not like the
religion or the faith system just changed all of
a sudden recently and we were no longer in alignment with it.
It's that we, actually started getting more educated.
And the more that we did that, the more that we started
looking with some intellectual honesty at, where,
you know, what has been done in the name of
(09:39):
this God throughout history.
Once we've started looking at that with a little bit more
clarity and, you know,
willing to look at some really
difficult things, we started being able to
trace those lines of harm
into our current spaces.
So I want to acknowledge that. That it's not just,
(10:02):
oh, you know, back. It was just better back then. No, it was
just that we didn't know. We didn't know what we had
been a part of for so long.
>> Sarah (10:09):
Right.
>> Corinne (10:10):
Yeah, we were. There's a grief in that.
>> Sarah (10:12):
There's definitely a grief in that. Which I, I would love for us
to explore at some point, too.
It's the moment we have to acknowledge that
we were participating in
perpetuating a system that. That historically
causes a lot of harm.
And just because we didn't know, it doesn't mean that we
(10:33):
don't have to own our place within that.
>> Corinne (10:35):
Exactly right.
>> Sarah (10:36):
And it is our responsibility to educate ourselves. And
then once we know, we can't unknow. Right.
>> Corinne (10:43):
And that is. That goes. That goes way beyond
current headlines. That goes way beyond
what's happened over the last eight years. Like, that goes
way beyond current conversations
about what Christianity looks like today or what the church looks like
today. This is. These are also questions about origins,
you know, so it's. And everything in between. So I think
(11:04):
that that's a. That's a much bigger,
chunk to bite off, than we have time for in this
conversation. But it's important for us to have that kind of as the
foundation as we're talking about these stories.
And honestly, it really is a foundation. I mean, think
about you and I. We both
kind of deviated from the path that we had
(11:24):
been on and found ourselves
in the same space at the same time.
>> Sarah (11:31):
We Have a history of doing that, don't we?
We've done that a few times.
>> Corinne (11:36):
Right?
>> Sarah (11:37):
Because I'm thinking, let's see, we left
off. I think we left off at, like, age 18,
you know, like in our last. In part one.
And so, I mean, moving forward from there. For
me, that was, I was
set to go to an art school out in
California. And last minute,
the summer before, I decided to go to
(11:59):
a small Christian college in California
because I really felt that God was
calling me to go there. and
now I look at that and I go, sweet baby girl.
But at the time, I was so, so sure that I was
doing the right thing. And so ended up
at this Christian college. And that
(12:20):
campus is where you and I met for
the first time. That is where the story
begins for us.
>> Corinne (12:27):
So that's, where we first got.
We were in cahoots for the first time.
>> Sarah (12:33):
That was the beginning of our cahoots. I love that for
us.
>> Corinne (12:36):
Okay. But what's interesting is how you were on
this one path and then you jumped
ship and came to that college. I was
on a different path. I was finishing
my education degree. And then, I will
never forget, the senior pastor of our church at the time
was like, hey, I've got this opportunity. What do you think about it?
(12:57):
And it was like, what do you think about going
to live in a college dorm and work with college students?
And I was like, that sounds totally fun.
And at the time, Eric was like, what? You know, that was
like nothing that would. That, you know, we had ever talked
about or planned on. And that was actually his alma mater. And
I was like, yeah, that sounds like a great time. We should totally go do it. And
(13:18):
this was like, months before, and
we packed up and packed up the U
Haul and, you know,
drove to California and moved into a
college dorm. Like. Like, what?
What?
>> Sarah (13:33):
And young, right?
>> Corinne (13:35):
I know, but I mean, you know, I mean, that's. It's the truth,
though, because all I've ever been looking for is what's
true about the world and a big adventure, you know, And I think
anybody again, for better, for worse,
Anybody who's ever looked at my
decision making and been like, ooh, I don't know about that, you
know, that's.
>> Sarah (13:53):
I've.
>> Corinne (13:53):
I've been searching for that big adventure forever.
and really believing that whatever
God is is surely the biggest
adventure of them all. Right? That's what
I really wanted to be true. So I've got
this opportunity to. All my friends are, like, buying their first
house and like, you know, starting their
(14:14):
careers, and I'm like, I'm going to go live in a college dorm and
work with college kids, and they're just like, oh, okay.
Like, sweet baby girl. Okay. Yeah, they
were, There was a lot. I'm surprised there was not an
intervention. But then we met.
>> Sarah (14:28):
I mean, who knows if we ever would have
if you hadn't made that choice.
>> Corinne (14:32):
I know. Well, you were the girl on the third floor
who always had a massive
canvas in process.
You were always painting something. And that was my
intro to you was you were this incredible
fine artist who, like, also just happened to be going
to school, you know?
Yeah.
>> Sarah (14:53):
I'm thinking, Was it. Was it the pneuma? Was I,
like, passing you the pneuma? Yeah. Which at the time, I don't
even know how to explain it now it feels like, so
old now. But at the time, it was there, like, these
mini teachings on
dvd.
>> Corinne (15:07):
It was revolutionary.
>> Sarah (15:09):
It was revolutionary at the time when.
>> Corinne (15:12):
Rob Bell started doing
these little micro sermons on
dvd. And do you remember how, like, the camera would
follow him as he walked? And that was like, the thing, right, is that,
he was, like, walking with the camera. It was unlike anything
anybody else was doing. And you showed up
at my apartment door and you were like, I've got something
you're gonna love. And you handed me these
(15:34):
turquoise discs and you were like, this
is super in the
vault. You can't share these. I was like, oh, my gosh.
>> Sarah (15:42):
I'm like, I love her. Let's be friends.
>> Corinne (15:45):
I know. I was like, I'm getting a sneak peek at something
really big. I don't even know who this is or what it's about, but I
want it. I want in, you know? So that was. Yeah, those. That was our.
That was literally our cahoot.
>> Sarah (15:55):
It was. It was. We've been. We've been trouble for
a long time.
Yes.
>> Corinne (16:03):
anyway, that was.
That was my intro, though,
to this understanding that you
could be a professional. Christian
was like, wait a second. You mean
I can get paid to
do things I'm already doing
okay? It was like, all right.
(16:25):
It was fun, you know, like all of the programming
and all of the relationship building and all that kind of stuff that I
already loved. And. But it was kind of
my intro into this industry
side of belief
where people were making careers out of it.
So I was like, oh, I guess this is normal. I
(16:47):
guess this is a normal thing that people
are, you know, they're just a career
Christian. And I was kind of Like, I feel like if anybody
could be a career Christian, I could like, okay.
>> Sarah (17:01):
Career Christian? Yeah, like a professional
Christian. I mean that's, that's what a
pastor is. It is what a pastor is. I,
I agree with you though. When I, before I went to that,
that college, really, I hadn't been exposed to how
many different options, career wise, there were
to like how many different ways you could be a professional
(17:22):
and had no idea really what
went into the behind the scenes
element of a church and of
ministry at that time. And
that was eye opening, even to the
extent of a machine that in many
ways, the church can be. There's so
(17:42):
much that goes into your Sunday morning,
you know, service that you don't see.
Week, weekly.
>> Corinne (17:50):
The women's Bible study, the, the church camp,
you know, all of that.
>> Sarah (17:54):
Like the marketing department. I mean, I'm talking like,
like all the, Right. All the things that go into
it and that actually
end up leading to your, to what happens on a
Sunday.
>> Corinne (18:06):
Yeah.
Sam?
Okay, so tell me what you think about this, because I
(18:28):
rem. Because after, after I
worked at the college, I went on to
then work in women's, ministry
for a big mega church. And I remember before
I took that job, a friend of mine
who had been in vocational ministry for a long time, I remember
her saying, she was like, okay. She's
like, I know you're considering this. She's like, just
(18:51):
know that once you work for a church,
you will never just sit
in the pews ever again. You will never
be able to unsee what she's like. Once you've seen behind the
curtain and you know how it all works, you will never be able
to unsee that and just be a churchgoer
ever again. And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, that's
(19:12):
fine. I'm like, yeah, I'm not surprised by that. You know, whatever.
I don't think I could have possibly prepared
myself for how true that statement would be. So I'm
just curious how that hits you.
Just that same idea.
>> Sarah (19:26):
Yeah, it's sort of like what they
say, if you like the restaurant, don't
go in the kitchen. It's better just to not know and just
sort of be blissfully unaware. Although
again, that tends to be, My
problem is I can't, I can't not ask the
questions. I want to know. I want it to be.
(19:46):
I want it to be if it's, if it's good, I want it to be good all
the way through. Not Just good, because they're showing us the
shiny part. Right. It's like meeting the wizard. Like, it's.
I have to meet the wizard. I need to know,
see the wizard. And that, that
has not,
doesn't always go so well. Right.
(20:07):
Yeah. And it is difficult because again, it's just
another, it's another off ramp,
where of alignment with our faith and ourselves.
It's another place to
explore. And I'm thinking about
a time several years
ago now at this point when, my husband was working
(20:27):
at a church and I had an art gallery. We were living
in California.
And I would teach these creative workshops.
I was in like a co op with other artists. We would do like
monthly shows. It was so cool
and so fun and I just
had the best time. And so you.
Yeah, I felt very me. And it was one of
(20:49):
the, it was one of the first times,
I think, in my
dynamic, like even like within my marriage, where
I was practicing some more independence
outside of the church world, which was,
you know, Steve's a pastor and so his
world, church world tends to be pretty all encompassing
when you're married to a pastor. The pastor's wife
(21:12):
title is pretty broad. And
this little space that I'd carved out for myself
was independent of that
world which I
found I really thrived in and was able to
bring even like back some parts
of myself into the equation. You talk about like me being
(21:32):
in college and painting all the time and yeah,
like, there was a lot of that I stepped away from
in such earnest effort to be a really good
pastor's wife and be super involved in the church and to be, you know, all
those things. And so, yeah, having this
space was sort of a reminder. It was a little, one of those little
flares of like, ooh, yep, there she is. Like, there she is. There she
(21:52):
is. Yeah, there she is.
>> Corinne (21:54):
Yeah, for sure.
>> Sarah (21:57):
Yeah. But, you know, it was not without
challenge because this was, this would be probably
like if there was one. If I'm looking at my, my
journey of life as a pathway. And
this is when one of those places where the
parallel lines of my faith didn't match up. and it
really was that I, I had this, I built this
(22:17):
beautiful community and I'd built this beautiful work.
And it wasn't, it wasn't under the banner of the church, it
wasn't labeled Christian, it didn't carry the church's name. It
wasn't, it wasn't, you know, done on church
campus. Yep. And that ended up
being, I hate to say
problematic, but, concerning
(22:38):
for some, because it's like, well, if you're doing this work, why
wouldn't you do it? Why wouldn't you do it for the church?
Why wouldn't you do that for the church? And
it really made me have to explore for myself,
like, what does. What is church and not church?
Because the conversations I'm having
in these creative workshops, the growth that I'm
(22:58):
seeing happen, like, the dynamics of connection and
community and friendship, like, all of that
feels.
Feels a lot like church.
And so really, what are we talking
about when we say church? Is it the label? Is it the space?
Is it the power, the control, the
(23:19):
responsibility? And is that something I want to
be handing off to someone else when it's something
that I've built? And honestly, a lot of the
people that came through my gallery doors
would not have felt safe to go through the church doors. like,
and those are. Those are my people. Like, that's. That's where
I wanted to be. And it was really one of the first
(23:40):
times that I had to explore, like, how far
can my faith take me if I'm continuing
to kind of almost like, there she is. Right. Take back some pieces
of myself or rediscover them. Now what do I do
when some pieces aren't quite fitting
within the church world?
>> Corinne (23:58):
Yeah. And you're finding yourself saying things
like, people that I care about
wouldn't feel safe. Like,
that. Those. Some of. There's sometimes that we have those moments
where it's like, you can't unhear. it. You
can't unthink, it.
>> Sarah (24:13):
Ah, you.
>> Corinne (24:14):
There's no. It's like a point of no return when you
admit it's like, well, what does that mean? So
how far can my faith go if people I care
about are not safe enough to
engage it?
>> Sarah (24:27):
Like, well, and like, it begs
the question, why don't they feel safe?
>> Corinne (24:32):
Yeah.
>> Sarah (24:32):
Right. And then you start pulling that thread, and that. That makes
things complicated pretty quickly.
>> Corinne (24:37):
Right, Right. You know,
I think so much
of our ability to be,
intellectually honest about what we believe has to
do with proximity. So
when we are. When
we're never outside of that system,
(24:58):
it's really difficult to get enough distance
or get enough perspective to start telling ourselves the truth about
our own lives. Right. But then we get a little bit of space
or we have a pocket of space, like your
studio, where we can exist. Or for me, like, it
literally took moving overseas for me to
have enough distance from the community
(25:18):
that I was a part of, from the community that I had built. Like,
it took me actually being on the other
side of the world to feel
safe enough to tell myself the truth about my own life.
And I will never forget the
very first time we went and visited Thailand. It
was kind of like a scouting trip. And I remember we were
(25:39):
taken to the big, big, big, big,
big Buddhist temple that's on the top
of the mountain in, in the city that we were
considering moving to. And
the woman who had given us this tour, she
was a white expat Christian woman
and, part of the organization that we were
(26:00):
being courted by. And we got
to the center of the temple, and in the
center of the Buddhist temple is a
tiled. It's open air, but it's a tiled
space. And you take off your shoes and you have to have a
shoulder covering out of respect. And
you walk in and there's a massive
golden chedi, which is a big tower
(26:23):
that's in the very center of this,
central temple space. And then there's this square
that goes around the outside of the Chedi. And
the devout Buddhists walk their prayer
seven times around that chedi.
There's an altar where there's offerings made,
flowers, money, beverages,
(26:45):
candles. Like anything that's an offering can be
placed here. And we're standing in awe.
Ah. And in reverence, honoring
this space that is different from any space we've
ever been in and really just taking
it all in. And I remember I have a photo that I took
looking up at the very pinnacle of
(27:05):
this gold tower. And I remember at
that moment that I was taking the photo, she said, you
know, just really casually she goes, you
know, I think we're all just trying to explain
something bigger than ourselves.
And that was this moment where I felt like the
floor was cracking
underneath me. Like she said
(27:27):
this quiet part out loud. She was
in the same communities that I'm a part
of. She's in the same, you know, spaces that I'm familiar
with. And yet she had the room
within herself to admit that
maybe there's not just one black and
white, right or wrong, in or out
(27:48):
truth about the world. Maybe all
any of us are doing is trying to explain
something bigger than ourselves. And that makes me think about
you talking about yourself as a young girl. And
really you just always knew there was something bigger. And so here I
was as a grown ass woman
who'd always kind of been deconstructing on some level, but really
(28:08):
needed some distance to be able to get really honest
with Myself. And it was
just this wave of
permission that just flooded, like,
this middle space of this temple in my mind, in my
imagination, just flooded with permission
to believe that we are all
(28:32):
just trying to do the same thing. We are all
just trying to explain something bigger than ourselves.
Every religion, for all of human history
has always been just
trying to explain something bigger than ourselves. And
when I allowed myself to really receive
that, I. Honestly, Sarah,
(28:53):
like, I don't know if
anything else has ever felt more true.
Like, that resonated deep in my soul in a way that
was not about a religion. It was not about
any one group of people at any one
group of. Or at, any one point in history. It was just
all of a sudden, this hierarchy
(29:15):
of belief that I had been handed
just. It just leveled the playing field.
And all of a sudden, all of us are exactly the same
forever and ever. And that was like
the cracks in the foundation of what I had always
believed. I mean, there
was no way to go back
(29:38):
after that moment.
>> Sarah (29:39):
Wow. Did it feel. Do you remember
how you felt? Like, did it feel. Did that feel scary
to kind of have that realization? Or did it feel liberating? Did
you feel, like, free? Did you feel terrified? What
did you.
>> Corinne (29:51):
So Liberating? Yeah, it felt like.
It felt like taking a big gasp of air
after holding my breath for a really long time.
>> Sarah (29:59):
It was like, almost like something
you all already, ah, knew is true. You were allowed
to exactly say or believe. Like it had been
there.
>> Corinne (30:08):
Exactly.
>> Sarah (30:09):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (30:09):
And it was just the. It was how she said it.
It was the moment she said it in. It
was the distance I had from
anything else that I'd ever felt beholden to. Like, it
was all of it. It was just this one tiny little
moment that cracked my world wide open.
>> Sarah (30:27):
Wow. That's incredible.
I have a moment similar that I'm
thinking of and where in
the same way as the revelation. Oh, my m.
Gosh. As the revelation sort of hit me.
M. It felt liberating. And
if I had thought about it before
(30:49):
experiencing it, the thought idea of it
would feel. Felt terrifying. Like, it feels like, oh, we
can't. That's not. We shouldn't. And it was,
back in Arizona. This was,
after leaving the church in Illinois, after my
life fell apart. And I
used to walk the desert trails, to try to put myself back
(31:11):
together. And I had this very specific
memory of hiking this hill
mountain near my place, getting to the
top, and the whole way up, I
intentionally didn't listen to music or a podcast or anything. I just
was quiet and listening and letting
things brew and stir. And I remember
having enough distance from our experience
(31:34):
to, to be able to feel more
settled. Like I felt. I didn't feel like I was
in like a triggered or high trauma moment. I
just was just finding those pieces of myself out along the
trail and getting to the top of that
mountain and just sitting on this
boulder and having
the dangerous thought that
(31:56):
this feels like church too. Like,
what if this, what if this can be
church too? And within that, not even just like
outside the four walls of the
Christian church, but
this very nearness of
who I call God was so
(32:17):
near and so crystal clear and so prevalent
in everything. In the air, in the
poppies and the cacti and the
jackrabbits. So crazy
crystal clear and near to me in a way that I
had actually felt really distanced from for all
those years that I spent trying to
find God and make it fit within the
(32:39):
walls of a church. And it
was one of those first moments for me where the
second that I thought it, I felt like the biggest
relief. Like it just felt like, oh, that has always been
true for me. And, and I spent a
lot of time and energy
trying to force it to
(32:59):
either not be or to find it within
a structure and a system where I really
didn't find it. and I expected
I would feel guilty or that that would feel scandalous or that I
would be like, you know, but all I felt was relief
and alignment. That
feels true, that feels right. And it feels like a returning
(33:19):
of a part of me that I now that
I know again, there's no going back.
Like she's coming with me, you know?
>> Corinne (33:28):
Oh, a returning. I keep thinking from
something you said earlier, that first little
bit about, moving through something
and it's no longer in alignment, but it's kind of what you've always been
pursuing. The idea of our becoming
and how we're always becoming,
we're always returning, we're always
(33:50):
evolving, we're always changing. That's the point.
That is what it means to be human. And so
to ascribe to a faith system
where the goal is, is to achieve
or to get to a certain spot and then white knuckle it and hold
onto it and never let go. Or else you're backsliding
or else you're being unfaithful or something like that,
(34:12):
you're. The goal is to stay. You get to that point and then
the goal is to stay. Once you figure out what is
true and once you convert or once you believe or whatever,
then the goal is, is to never let go.
And that is so
contrary to everything else about
us as human beings that we are always
becoming, we are always changing, always evolving.
(34:35):
And that is so much more in alignment with our true
nature. And, you know, some might say our design,
then any sort of stagnant, Anything
that resists change either
breaks or dies off. Right. Like,
when we think about biodiversity.
Right.
>> Sarah (34:53):
A.
>> Corinne (34:53):
Like the future of a species
depends upon
the micro and the macro evolution over time.
Small, small changes over time, that is,
and a variety of species and
a variety of genetics. So I just think it's so interesting with the
more diverse a population or,
(35:16):
a cross section is, the more that we
allow ourselves to become and evolve, the
more longevity we have, the more sustainability we have.
It's so beautiful. And everything,
though, that we are trying to do within a religious system is
so rigid and so stagnant and so
finite and so, Hard. Right. Ah.
(35:36):
So anyway, and in terms of our language and how we're feeling
and how we're talking about these things, there's these moments of
rigidity, and then there's these moments of release. And
I'm. I mean, I,
Like a professional white knuckler, you know? Like, I think that
my downfall has always been my death
grip. On whether it's certainty or my
(35:57):
plan for something or how I thought something would go or
whatever, that death grip is always
to my detriment. It's always when I've
been able to release that and hold something loosely with open
hands or palms up, that
I've been able to survive something.
So I just love that our language about it is, like, really
(36:17):
mirroring that as feeling deeply
true about the world and about ourselves.
>> Sarah (36:23):
Yeah. Something that you said makes me think
of a story that you actually do include
in Skye's the Good, Good Father part of
the story. You think about, like, talk about
deconstruction. And when you
said that, I thought. Yeah, it makes me. It makes me think of that moment
that you have because there was something interesting, and I'd love for you to tell
(36:44):
it, if you're comfortable with that. But there's the micro and the
macro. There's the internal and the external. And I just think that
that specific experience that you had felt like both at the same
time, which feels really powerful.
>> Corinne (36:55):
Yeah. Well, and before I tell that story, like, correct me if I'm wrong,
but what you were just talking about is part of one of your chapters,
right. When you're talking about that Climb up to the
top. And that realization.
>> Sarah (37:05):
Yeah, that's in super, bloom.
>> Corinne (37:08):
Yeah. So I feel like, you know, so much
of, so much of skies is
these little moments too. Good,
good Father. Again, another story from,
from Thailand is I had the
opportunity to go to a conference that was about.
It was an anti trafficking conference and a friend of mine,
(37:28):
was speaking there for the first time and a bunch of us went to
support her and to be a part of, you know, the weekend. And
it was really, really exciting. a lot of
people in the community that I was a part of went to
conferences on a regular basis. I never did. That wasn't, that
wasn't a part of my, purpose error.
This felt like a really big honor to be able to go to this conference
(37:48):
and participate in the broader sector in this
way. And
it was at the beginning of the conference and we had found a row
that fit all of our group that was there. And
the lights went down and all of
a sudden there was this very
familiar atmosphere
(38:10):
created where the lights went down
and the words on the screen went up and
the people on the stage started playing music
and everyone started to sing. And I was
like, oh, wait a second, I thought we were at a
conference, but I think we're at church. Like this feels a lot like a
megachurch service. You know, like, I didn't get that
(38:30):
memo. I thought we. And then I started to kind of
feel pretty naive because, you know,
really the people that were hosting the conference were a faith based
organization and it was
just this perpetual crossover between the
professional and the religious. And I had been thinking
that we were at a professional,
(38:51):
conference. And that was true.
but the religious component was much more significant than I
had, understood. So everyone starts
singing. And it was a song I recognized
from the moment that it started. And it was good,
good Father. And if anybody has an evangelical background,
you know. Exactly. You know that song?
>> Sarah (39:12):
Yeah.
>> Corinne (39:12):
You know that song, you could. You're singing it right now in your head.
and I remember feeling
really awkward because the words
are on the screen and I just
couldn't sing it. I've sung that song
a million times.
I could not sing it in that moment.
And I felt as if
(39:35):
surely there must be this massive
spotlight on me because in my
mind I was asking myself
some questions that I had never given myself
permission to ask. And it was only in that moment
when confronted with the lyrics of that song. So good,
good Father. over and over
(39:55):
again. And I was thinking to myself, we
are all here, ah, at this
conference talking about a really
difficult and often horrific
problem in the world. And
a good, good father would
do something about it. So I,
(40:15):
all of a sudden I had this, like, wait
a second, what am I saying? What am I,
what am I, what am I thinking here? Like, what, what are the
ramifications of this thought? You know, And I, and I, started to
think to myself, like, wait a second. Like,
a good, good father doesn't just say, doesn't just wait for
somebody else to handle the problem. A good, good father
(40:35):
doesn't turn away when
his children are being abused and harmed
and violated. A good, good father. And I. And this,
I mean, it was just the,
the ideas and the questions just kept
coming and it was like, well, what does it mean to be a good, good father?
What does that mean? What does that look like? And, and
(40:57):
even. It wasn't even about answering that
question, but it was about
allowing myself, daring to
allow myself to ask, is
this God that I've been handed
even good? If they are
good, wouldn't they
intervene? So, like, and, all of these
(41:20):
questions that, honestly, from an apologetics
perspective, there's always an answer. There's always an answer. I know all
the answers. I know all the bullet points. So this isn't about theology. This
is about my soul actually
having room to question. And so, but here's the
interesting part, is that I was
thinking to myself, surely there's a spotlight on me. Surely everybody
(41:41):
in this room can tell that I'm, like,
having, like, an existential crisis over here in the, in
the third row, and I'm not singing. And everybody
must know. And surely somebody in, like, you know, red
jackets or, you know, whatever, they're going to come and escort me out by
the elbow, you know, like, I just was feeling so
self conscious because I could not sing the song. And I look down my
(42:02):
row and I look at all of my beautiful friends.
Nobody is singing. Wow. and I was like,
wait a second, that's weird. How come nobody's singing? And it
wasn't until later on that I, like, said
something about it. I was like, you guys, I couldn't sing that song. And I was
just kind of, like, nervous to bring it up. And we had this
really big, beautiful conversation about. And everybody from
(42:23):
their own vantage points and for their own reasons and in their own ways
and coming to their own conclusions and all that. But it was
this beautiful conversation about asking
questions we've never allowed ourselves to ask before.
That was another moment that I Was like I, it wasn't
about coming to an answer about
the nature of God or anything like that. It was about
(42:45):
being honest with myself that I could even wonder
about the nature of God.
>> Sarah (42:51):
Yeah. It's those moments where it's like, am I even allowed
to think this, Am I even allowed to ask that question?
Am I even allowed to, to shift this,
this, the way I look at this or topic or whatever it is, like
it's. Something bad is going to happen now. Or like you said,
someone's going to escort me out. clearly they can tell.
>> Corinne (43:09):
Like I, Someone's gonna know which
something's gonna know. Yeah,
yeah. But, but I think really the thing that I came to at the end
of it, if anything, was what if
God isn't who they said he
was? And that could, that means a lot of different things
to me. Right. Because a lot of that is liberating. Like
a lot of that is beautiful and positive if God is not who they
(43:32):
said he was. Right. Like, if God's not even He.
If God's not. You know, like it allowed me,
it allowed me a kind of a another starting point
because again, kind of always been deconstructing. But
here was another layer that I had never
looked at. And it took, it took that
moment, you know, again, it was just the, that song
(43:52):
and that moment at that conference on that
topic, for me to be like, wait a minute.
What if God isn't what I have been
handed?
>> Sarah (44:01):
Yeah, what if.
>> Corinne (44:11):
Sam?
>> Sarah (44:22):
Mhm?
I think those moments,
like I have a few of those myself when I look
(44:44):
back at the deconstruction process
of my faith. And I
tried so hard not to deconstruct,
like I tried so hard to not ask questions like that or pay too
close attention to the songs we were singing or the verse
that was being read or the message being given from stage. If
I just didn't listen close enough,
(45:05):
I could. And if I just squinted just so. If I
just didn't go to that meeting, if I just. Then
maybe I could make it,
you know? and because I tried so
hard because to allow myself to
deconstruct the implications of that within
my life felt like an
implosion of my life because it's
(45:27):
so intertwined. Having a spouse that
works at a church, having so much of our community
and friendship built within church,
having my own, so much of my own identity and meaning m
and purpose built within the church. You
start pulling those threads and
everything, it feels like everything
(45:48):
starts to unravel and that is
terrifying. That's really terrifying. And it,
it, for me, it kept me,
within an incongruent system, a
system that was not in alignment with me for a lot
longer than was good for me. And
it really kept me from,
(46:08):
from that natural growth that you were describing earlier. Like even just
within my own humanity, within my own femininity, within my
own spirituality. I was stunted
because I was trying so desperately hard
to not deconstruct, but it was
already happening. I think deconstruction and evolution are
very similar, if not the same. That what
(46:29):
we look at is like a tearing down, a falling
apart, a leaving is really
just growing.
>> Corinne (46:37):
It's just, it's the becoming.
>> Sarah (46:39):
Yeah, it's the becoming. It's
inevitable. Becoming is inevitable as long as
we're alive.
>> Corinne (46:45):
It is. It is.
>> Sarah (46:47):
I.
>> Corinne (46:48):
When you talk about, like, how many
things are riding on
not deconstructing, you know, like,
that is so true, I think, for
so many of us. Because if we're
doing it right and you know,
air quotes, if we're doing it right, then
(47:09):
all of life is all for Jesus. I mean, I had that T shirt
right, that was like one of my church shirts.
If all of life is all for Jesus, then
every single part of your life is
woven into what you believe,
and what you believe is woven into every single
part of your life. So there is not any space in your
(47:30):
life that is safe from
the unraveling, you know, so,
you know, and that's a, that's a big gamble.
That's a big gamble to start pulling on those threads. So I
think you and I can recognize
that, you know, so many of the responses that
we get and so much of the people who reach out to us understand
(47:51):
that, that there's a cost, that it,
it costs us to tell the truth about our
own lives, to pull those threads, to allow ourselves
to become. That's not just a
pretty phrase like becoming is hard.
You know, it's hard, hard work. And also I
think it gives us so much compassion not only for
(48:12):
our younger selves and, and the mistakes that we
made along the way, but also for people who
are maybe just beginning that journey. That
it's, it's long and
not without.
really difficult spaces and that there's no
part of our lives that go untouched by that. So,
(48:34):
ugh, it's, it is so beautiful
and it's inevitable and it is also
some of the hardest work that we'll ever do.
>> Sarah (48:46):
Yeah, I think self compassion and
compassion for others is such a beautiful way to think about it
too. Again, it allows it to be expansive. It
allows everyone's process to be different. And
becoming doesn't always mean abandoning your faith. Right? Lots of
people find beautiful belonging within themselves, within a.
Within a healthy faith system.
(49:06):
It's the allowing ourselves to
tell the truth about ourselves, about our own journey, about
our own life, and allowing some room for that
without it needing to threaten those around
us or,
tear everything down to consider the possibility
that growth and deconstruction
(49:27):
don't have to be negative things, that they can be hard
and painful because growing is pain. There's growing pains.
But that it's not actually a tragedy, that
it's not actually something to be terrified of. Right.
Like, what would happen if we embraced it? And what would happen if we
embraced those around us who are in their own journeys and
their own processes? It's like who. It's what you say all the
(49:47):
time. Who would we even be? Who could we even be as a
humanity? And if we could make some more room
for one another? And who.
>> Corinne (49:56):
Who could our kids be and
our loved ones be if we freed them
up to do the same thing? If what we're
handing to our next generations
or to those around us is liberation
and freedom and becoming and
growth and beauty and a
tremendous victory of becoming
(50:18):
more and returning more to who we've always
been. That's what we want to down.
That's what we want to give to others and share.
That's that thing that feels most true
about the world to me. That's that thing,
maybe for you, that is what you've
always been pursuing from before anyone
told you or handed you a box. Right.
(50:42):
Like that feels. That feels like that
gasp of air,
you know, in that temple square for me.
On that mountaintop.
And what if it didn't have to be so loaded? What if it
didn't have to be eggshells and a fence?
What if it could be just so
(51:04):
freaking good and beautiful that
we want to talk about all the time? Like what if.
>> Sarah (51:11):
And if.
>> Corinne (51:11):
What if it could be that gorgeous? Yeah, I think
it is that gorgeous.
>> Sarah (51:16):
Yeah. We're finding that to be true.
>> Corinne (51:18):
I think like Allison says, you've never
been prettier. Like, you've never been
prettier, Sarah, than when you're talking about being on that.
That mountaintop and that gasp of
fresh air.
>> Sarah (51:31):
I feel the same way about you in that temple.
It's the, it's the liberation, liberation is gorgeous
celebration. Yeah.
Liberation's never been prettier. Let's make. Let's make
Liberation hot. Let's.
>> Corinne (51:44):
Let's make deconstruction hot again.
And on real, though.
>> Sarah (51:52):
There'S an outtake. We're out.
>> Rebeca (52:08):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with
Sarah Carter and Corrine shark on the 1C
Story Network. For more information about this
and all of our stories, please visit
just1c.com. That's
J-U S T O N E C
dot com.
>> Sarah (52:54):
that feels like a high five. Or
like a weird dance. Okay,
we're recording
>> Singer (53:01):
The 1C Story Network. For the love of stories.
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