That Time We Looked for a Lawyer and Found a Publisher (or, This is How It Works, Part II)

Episode Transcript
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SP Ep 4_final

Sarah (00:01):
For all the Match Strikers, this is Spiritual Pyro.

Corinne (00:02):
Sarah, I still am amazed that in that moment that you had the memory of someone that we had originally been connected with at the very, very beginning of our publishing process, and that you had remembered something about them having an attorney. Because, I mean, we were kind of like, okay, who do we know we were getting counsel from? We were getting general counsel. We were getting general advisement from attorneys. But it was clear, that we needed specific representation for this kind of work. And I'm just amazed that you were like, oh, wait a second, we know so and so. So anyway, I want you to tell that story.

Sarah (00:03):
Well, and, yes, I'm happy to. I think we should go back then to the beginning, just for a second, because we're so lucky to have her with us for this episode, introduce you to Rebeca.

Rebeca (00:04):
Well, hello.

Sarah (00:05):
We met Rebeca.

Corinne (00:06):
Hi, Rebeca.

Rebeca (00:07):
I said, hello, everyone.

Corinne (00:08):
This is so fun.

Sarah (00:09):
This is so fun. So we met Rebeca back when we were submitting our proposal for our book, and we had just kind of an initial Zoom interview, just to kind of get to know you, feel you out. She had read our proposal and had interest and was representing the publishing company that we did end up signing with. And I remember, Corinne, we were so excited about the potential to work with her.

Rebeca (00:10):
Oh, my gosh.

Sarah (00:11):
Initial interview, we were like, she gets it. She's on our, like, on our side. She's, like, so, knowledgeable and has this connection to this attorney who's not afraid to take on the big bad bully and all this experience. So valuable. And I just know we got off the call and we're like, oh, my gosh, I hope we get an offer. That was amazing.

Corinne (00:12):
Yeah. Well, do you remember, too, in that first Zoom interview where we were just, like, we were just, you know, on the edge of our seats, so excited. And I remember Rebeca being like, I have my own story. And we were like, wait a minute. She had read what we were proposing and was already sharing with us that she was personally connecting to it. And that moment of, like, that rush of feeling like something that we had made could connect with somebody else was so impactful for the longevity that we would need to, like, sustain this energy to get this book done. And I just feel like that was of those early moments where we were like, wait a minute. Something that we wrote could really impact somebody else, and they could respond and share their own. Their own story with us. And that was. I'll never forget that.

Rebeca (00:13):
I had something similar the first time I saw your proposal when it came through. So I was at that publishing house. I was head of, acquisitions and content development and marketing. And so I had come on board. I did not know it when I was hired there, but the, publisher, like, within days of me coming on board, was going on a sabbatical for the entire summer. So I was basically just going to run the joint with the associate publisher. And I didn't know that until he left. But before he left, he had sent to me, like, a backlog of proposals that he had that he had been trying to make decisions on. And one of those proposals was yours. And so I read it, and I just jumped on it. I said, you have to sign this one before you leave. We have to get this one. We have to get this. And I remember even then, he was like, are you sure? And I said, just trust me. There are a million women like me out there and like them who, we experience this kind of stuff under the hands of power, and we don't know what to do. And it takes everything from us. And we're just trying to survive. Forget thriving in the moment. You're just trying to survive. And to have this beautifully written, I mean, it's just, both of your writing is just gorgeous. And I said, to have people with this level of writing talent able to capture that journey and walk you through it, because they walk you through them walking through it. Yes. You have to put that out in the world. This is why publishing houses exist. And he was like, okay, well, if you think we should, then we should. And that's why we went after it. I went after you guys hard. It's like, I want that proposal.

Corinne (00:14):
I love that.

Sarah (00:15):
That is so. I mean, again, just another element of, like, I didn't know that. I didn't hear that part of the story. I love hearing that. It's so deeply meaningful to know again, just the way that you've advocated for us and our story all the way through since day one, you know.

Rebeca (00:16):
Well, which is why it wasn't a good time when I was no longer with that publishing house.

Corinne (00:17):
And then you disappeared.

Rebeca (00:18):
Yeah.

Corinne (00:19):
So we ended up signing the contract, and we were so excited knowing that we were going to get to work hand in hand with you to bring this to fruition. And then you were gone, and we were like, oh, okay. I mean, you know, we were still going to move forward, but there, that shifted things a little bit for us and was a little confusing. And I remember it was Sarah and I had to practice. We're like, okay, we're going. Whatever that was, you know, we're going to respect the fact that, you know, she hasn't reached back out to us. And so obviously, you know, there would probably be a reason for that, and we're just going to respect that. But really, we were like, where'd she go? Like, where'd she go? We want to follow her.

Rebeca (00:20):
Well, and I, unbeknownst to you guys, we, you know, now, you know, I had been let go from the publishing house. The publisher came back from sabbatical, and it was very difficult from day one. I just couldn't get him to sit down and listen. I had been tasked before he left with revamping quite a bit of what was going on at the house. The house is over 100 years old. So we had revamped the logo, we had revamped the look. We had added a fiction division. We were adding, going to add a podcast division and with ideas toward adding film and television. And it just ,he had just said, you know, run as far as you can with this while I'm gone. And I don't, I don't know if it was some naivete on both of our parts of, okay, so what you're leaving is not going to be what you return to. And are we both prepared for that reality? Because when he got back, it was very clear that he wasn't. And so I began just begging for, could we please just sit down for an hour? Could we please sit down for a couple of hours? I need to let you know this. I had a list of like, 18 or 20 things that I had made while he was gone of, we have to discuss these things when he gets back. Because I didn't want to step outside of my mandate while he was gone. And so I, you know, I would take things as far as I could and then just be like, let's just wait until the publisher gets back before we decide that. We don't have to decide that before August. And so then when he got back, I couldn't get him to sit down with things. And the communication kept deteriorating further and further and further, and I kept, could not figure out what was going on. And, I mean, I remember reaching out to some friends going, have you ever had a boss go on sabbatical? Like, how's the reentry? Is it rough? What do I need to do to make this easier? I don't understand. We were in such a good place before he left, I was so excited to finally have a male boss that wasn't looking at me, you know, in the way that so many male bosses look at females, at powerful females. And so it all just felt very confusing. I felt like I was getting a very different human being when he got back. And we kept trying. I kept trying and kept trying and kept trying. And then I had discovered some things that were going on at the house while he was gone that were very problematic. And I had taken them to the board. And he was very unappreciative that I had informed the board of what I had found. And then we finally, it all just culminated in, I was called to headquarters to sit down with him and a psychiatrist to try to work through our communication issues. And the psychiatrist told me just not to get too far into the weeds. But you know, he said the first day, are you guys committed to trying to fix this? And I was like, absolutely. I believe in this publishing house. It's a social justice house. I believe in what I've acquired since, you know, including you guys, you know, since I've been here. I think we're going to do amazing things together. I absolutely want to make this work. And the publisher would not say yes. And the psychiatrist kept asking, a psychiatrist or psychologist, I'm not sure which one he was, but he was a therapist. I found out, I googled him later, and he just kept asking and the publisher kept not answering. And so I said, I think what's happened is I think he's waiting to see if I say things that please him in this conversation we're having. And if I do, then he's going to commit to trying to make the relationship work. And if I don't, then he's not. And I think he's, I think that means he's going to fire me. And the therapist said, oh, well, then you should know he doesn't have the authority to let you go. That's not our hierarchy at, this publishing house. And it was a faith based publishing, house. So in their denomination, that's also not how it works. There are no hierarchies. And he said, you know, each of you has a realm of authority and responsibility, and his is not hiring and firing. So it doesn't matter what you say in this session, in any of these sessions, he can't fire you. And I was like, well, then all the more, let's get it all out on the table. Let's wrestle this white elephant down, you know. And, turned out the very next morning, the very first thing, he was 10 minutes late. The publisher was 10 minutes late to the next session that included the associate publisher. And he walked in and he said he just kind of blew in, had his papers under his arm and sat down across from me, across the coffee table from me. And he said, this isn't going to take long. And he read from a piece of paper letting me know that he had, he could not see a way to move forward in working with me. And so therefore he was terminating my employment effective immediately. And he had worked out what that would look like, right down to how much I could spend to feed myself in the airport on the way home. And this was two weeks before Christmas. And I just sort of was like having not been fired, I was like, I've been working since I was 11 years old. This was a new experience for me. And I just thought, the first thing that I kept thinking was, but you don't have the authority to do this. So what is happening right now? Is this. Are we role playing? Like, I couldn't. I was very lost for a moment.

Sarah (00:21):
Wow.

Rebeca (00:22):
And so I just turned to the therapist and I said, I thought you told me yesterday he does not have the authority to do this. And the therapist said, well, I guess he went to the board last night and got the authority. And so he, the publisher handed me a piece of paper that he wanted me to sign. And I said, going back to your point of me knowing a fantastic attorney, I said, I'm not signing anything until I talk to my attorney. So, I quickly was just trying to figure out, I've signed all of these projects. I had brought my friends, New York Times bestsellers into this house to try to grow this house and signed them to contracts, making all sorts of promises, just like what I did to you guys, of what we were going to do to shape and to market and to distribute your work. And now I had no way of fulfilling those promises. And it felt horrible. It was less about like, I mean, I've been in the business so long, I was like, I'll figure something out money wise for my career. It's really about, I'm about to let down so many people that I have made so many promises to, to sign contracts at this place. What am I going to do? And so, like you guys attested to in I think your previous episode, I thought I need to be quiet for a minute. I don't know what to do here. I need to be quiet. So I did call a few of my friends in the immediate. And I said, I just want you to know I'm no longer with the house. I don't know what that means. I don't know how we're going to move forward. And I said, I just want you to know I don't know what's going on. I don't even know if this is legit, honestly. But I want you to know this has happened because now I don't have any access to the publishing house's communication system. And so I, turned in my laptop and left the city that I was in and came back home and was like, okay, now what do I do? And my attorney said, well, we're gonna need an additional attorney. And we got another attorney involved. And we started walking through that process. And he said, do you want to tell everybody what happened? And I said, you know, I honestly, I just. I want to hold accountable the person who just did this, because we found out over the course of discovery that I was not the first woman that had run into an issue with this publisher. And so I was like, okay, there needs to be some accountability, and maybe there will be a hope. Like, if I had known that another woman had walked a similar road, I probably would not have taken the position in the first place. So I said, let's get to a place of accountability. What could that look like? And it took a full year, but over the course of that, I found out he was sending out, that publisher was sending out emails and was talking about me and the business. And, oh, she's a loose cannon, and you can't trust her. Loose cannon was not his word. I can't remember his exact word that he said to somebody, but it was very much, she's not with this house. She's a liar. She can't be trusted. Don't believe anything. And the irony is that I wasn't saying anything to anybody. they were. Instead, his activity was having people come to me and say, why am I getting this email from him? Or why am I getting this phone call from him about you when you haven't said anything about him or the house? Like, what's going on? And so it was a really interesting experience to walk through of, well, since you asked and I didn't sign an NDA, let me tell you what happened. So then when I got your note, Sarah, of, you know, I don't know if you want to talk to us, because you went away, this very sweet, sweet note that you sent me, and I was like, I thought, oh, they have no idea what I've been working on in the year since leaving there. They don't know what's going on in my world. And won't this be an interesting phone call? And I honestly thought that, like the others, you were reaching out to find out what happened. I did not know any of what had happened to you guys since I had left the house. I just thought they probably are at a point with that publisher where they're like, what the hell is going on? We need to find out what happened. And maybe that woman who was there, who's no longer there, might be able to tell us something of what's going on and why we're exposed.

Corinne (00:23):
Experiencing this.

Rebeca (00:24):
I had assumed you were just experiencing something negative at the house. That's it. That's why I thought you were reaching out to me. But it turns out, no, not really.

Sarah (00:25):
Little did you know.

Corinne (00:26):
Oh, my goodness. And I mean, circling back to that statement from the last episode of, you know, someone with nothing to hide doesn't work that hard to silence other people. True.

Rebeca (00:27):
Right.

Corinne (00:28):
Irony of, where that statement came from.

Rebeca (00:29):
Right.

Sarah (00:30):
Well, and now it's. It's really wild to look back and go, we came really close to publishing a story about our experiences, speaking up, against the system that's going to try to crush the truth and keep people from being able to tell their stories within an organization where.

Corinne (00:31):
Right.

Sarah (00:32):
Seems like that might have been happening. Right.

Corinne (00:33):
Yeah.

Rebeca (00:34):
Yeah.

Sarah (00:35):
It makes me, I know you hate the word grateful, Corinne, but I'm going to use it. It makes me actually grateful.

Corinne (00:36):
Right.

Sarah (00:37):
That, that things turned out the way they did. So. So, Rebeca, you were the person that had the connection to the. Is it media law attorney? I know there's another phrase.

Rebeca (00:38):
He's entertainment law. So my attorney, whom I adore and have worked with for, I think eight years, nine years, we actually met because I was heading up a nonprofit here where I live in Naples, that was a film and television development studio. We helped stories in the development phase, and we had gotten office space on the same floor as his law firm. And he came to me in my first week on the floor just to introduce himself. And he said, by the way, one of the areas that my firm does is estates, is estate planning. And so I often need a witness to sign wills. Do you mind if I come knock on your door sometimes and you serve as the witness? So my name is on wills all over Naples, Florida, because he would come get me. I'D go to his office and sign and that sort of thing. But, we kind of got to know each other in that. And then he got to know what I was working on, and he said, you know, I really love entertainment law, and I'd really love to have an entertainment law division within my firm. Would you mind, you know, bringing me a little work as it comes? And I was like, oh, my gosh, have my attorney on the same floor? So he has handled so much for me in these eight, nine years, however long it's been. So. Yeah, and he also, as. As I've told you guys, has absolutely no problem with when he feels he is on the side of justice, the side of right. He will absolutely go to the mat for it, no matter the cost. He will.

Corinne (00:39):
Okay, well, I mean, that's also a great segue into, you know, why you and he work so well together, because, I mean, really a pivotal point in that conversation. Here we are. We just thought we were, you know, jumping on the call. Sarah was like, hey, I got a zoom with Rebeca. And I was like, oh, great. You know, like, we had hit enough dead ends or we had enough, like, you know, lingering questions that just we hadn't gotten answered yet, that it was like, oh, good, you know, another person that we can sit down with and maybe hone in a little bit more specifically on what we need. And so I just kind of came into the meeting honest, honestly, like, kind of casually, you know, just like, oh, yeah, looking forward to sitting down with her. Like, this will be great. Maybe connection that we, you know, that we need. So when we started to share about what had happened, and you were like, ladies, I have a story for you. I remember dying because your first statement was, well, since I didn't sign an NDA, I can tell you the story. I was like, anytime someone starts a conversation with. Since I didn't sign an NDA, I'm like, pulling up a seat. I'm like, I'm here for that.

Rebeca (00:40):
It still blows my mind that I didn't like. When their settlement offer came, my attorney called me, and he said, I want you to sign this so fast. And I said, why? And he said, well, first of all, it's the number that we wanted. But second of all, there's no NDA, and I don't know if they forgot to put it in there, but they didn't, so you need to sign it. You have the two things that we set out to have, which was the number that we got and the right to tell your story. Because he knew how important my story is.

Corinne (00:41):
Thank you. That phrase is really what the win is. Right. Like, we've talked about, like, the actual win is usually something that is much more personal than, than salacious. Right. And the actual win is the right to your own story. So I just remember you telling us your story, and Sarah and I are, like, picking our jaws up off the floor because we can't believe, A, that all of this was going on while we've been walking through our publishing journey there.

Sarah (00:42):
Yeah.

Rebeca (00:43):
Ah.

Corinne (00:44):
But B, that we happened to reach out to you and you happen to have such a connected experience with us. And then when we were, you know, kind of nervously like, hey, we're in this situation now where we might need representation in order to move our work forward. And I remember you saying to us, that's okay, I'm not afraid of a fight. And we were like, so good. Well, first of all, you were, you were positioning yourself, like, with us. Right? Which is what Sarah and I are always talking about. I'm with you. With you is. Is that phrase that we repeat so often to each other. And in that moment, it felt like you were stepping from being adjacent to us to crossing over and standing with us. And we didn't m. We weren't even asking for that in that meeting. We were just maybe thinking that you knew somebody. So when you stepped over, you know, when you. You bridged that gap and you, like, stood next to us and linked arms with us and said that, said, I'm not. That's okay. I'm not afraid of a fight. Like, you didn't even flinch at the fact that we were like, we might need representation. We kind of come in with some you. And that moment, Sarah and I are, like, looking at each other out of the corner of our eye in the zoom meeting, like, making eyes at each other, like, oh, my gosh. Because, damn, for the first time, it felt like we didn't have to be the bravest ones at the table. Like, there was somebody else who could stand with us, who wanted to stand with us, who wasn't afraid. And that, that's new. That's. That was new for us. And that moment really was like a tectonic plate shifting moment where all of a sudden the ground under our feet was changing. And not only did that make us feel like we could be brave too, but. But that we didn't have to. We didn't have to feel so fucking alone all the time.

Rebeca (00:45):
I wish I had known any of that, because I didn't. For me, it was just. When you said that the important part of my settlement was that I got to walk away with my story. You know, it's so just flat out evil. Regardless of where you fall in religion, it is just evil to try to get in the way of someone telling their story. You can disagree with it, you cannot like it. You can kind of wish you'd shown up better in it. You know, all those things are fine, but, you know, it's the whole. When Maya Angelou talks about, you know, the saddest thing in the world is the story trapped inside. I firmly believe that because we are all walking stories, and it's how we understand each other, it's how we learn, it's how we grow. It's how humanity gets better. And so when you're like, no, don't tell that story, even though you lived it and survived it and found a way to thrive as a result, don't tell it because in the telling, some people might feel badly about you telling it. And it's like, well, exactly. You should feel badly. If you show up in my story in a way that makes you feel badly, sit with that. Sit with it till your fingers get all pruny and do something about that so that you don't show up in someone else's story in that same role. And how would we ever learn that? How would I ever learn that if people didn't tell me? There was an old college friend that I had that when I first. I mean, you guys know, quite a bit about my faith journey that I walked out of evangelicalism, after 40 years in it. And I had been such a raging, And I am using the word appropriately, raging evangelical in college. I mean, wore Bible verses on my shirt, would stop people on the sidewalk to ask them if they knew where they were going to spend eternity. Raging evangelical in college to the point that when I. Right. Bless my sweet little Tennessee heart. Oh, gosh, there had been a pat. There had been a professor, an English professor, who. He said something in class. it was something about how the earth was so many million years old or whatever. And I quickly took him to task of. No it was 6,000 years old, like, right there in front of every. In front of the class. And he just kind of let it go and didn't argue with me. Something that was. I don't remember it. I don't remember a bit of what I'm telling you. I only know it now because when it came out that I had left evangelicalism when I came out and said that, and we had a whole show about it. One of my old college friends listened to the show, and she reached out to me and she said, I would never have dreamed in a million years that you, of all people, as steadfast as you were, as raging as you were about this. Do you remember? And she had gone to that professor after class that day to make sure he was okay because I had lit into him so hard with my words. I'm so grateful she told me that story because I wouldn't know the, impact and the effect and how some people were cleaning up behind me, the harm that I was doing with my words, because I can wield them effectively. Except that she was like, well, in my story, you know, you don't show up in a good role. Let me just tell you, Rebeca, we have to be willing to hear our own roles and other people's stories and consider that, for at least that person, whether or not we want it to be true about ourselves, for that person, it absolutely is. So we need to think about that, you know? And so when you guys were like, we just want to tell our story, I was like, well, okay, then let's tell your story. You know, that's what we need to do. That's the good thing for everyone. Not just you, but others who go through stories that are like yours and the people who were in your story. We all need to, hear that story.

Sarah (00:46):
Yeah.

Rebeca (00:47):
Yeah. Bring it. Let's fight. I'll fight. I mean, I'd rather not fight. I'd rather you just let them tell their story, but.

Sarah (00:48):
Right.

Corinne (00:49):
It could be.

Sarah (00:50):
So we're not looking for a fight.

Corinne (00:51):
Yeah, right.

Sarah (00:52):
Just want to tell our stories. But it's like that Anne Lamott quote, where she says, you know, if people want you to speak warmly about them, they should have behaved better. You know, we have to tell our stories. And it's so true. And there are so many moments throughout the experience of writing the manuscript, going through so many versions, so many drafts, so many edits where it really was having to readjust the way that I thought about my story, being able to actually get to a point where I could embody it. And it didn't. It didn't. It didn't silence me. There weren't parts of it that I felt would throw me off, where I wouldn't be able to function for days because I'm reliving this.

Corinne (00:53):
This experience.

Sarah (00:54):
When I got to the point where I could recognize that the story had to almost live in me and then through me so that it can exist outside of me. that was a really profound part, and I think was a huge driver for Corinne and I to, you know, for us to really. To not give up, you know, post that YouTube video for us to not say, I guess that's it. I guess it's over. But to really sit with it and go, what's next? Where we. It's very clearly still alive and the story still matters. And so what's next? And so here we are on the zoom call with you, Rebeca, thinking that what's next is we need a connection with this attorney. That's going to happen. And then you go and you stand right there with us. And I remember having this moment where I think I was texting you, Corinne, I can't remember, but I was like, is this kind of like an interview?

Corinne (00:55):
Like, wait a second.

Sarah (00:56):
What's.

Corinne (00:57):
What's happening?

Sarah (00:58):
Did we get. Did we get a job? We didn't know it. Did we just pitch?

Corinne (00:59):
Like, wait, did we.

Sarah (01:00):
Did we just pitch?

Corinne (01:01):
Yeah, I don't. I don't know what's.

Sarah (01:02):
What's happening here, in the best way, because it was suddenly it really. I look at it now, and I'm like, oh, I wish I could have seen our faces as it was slowly dawning on us that were like, oh, so, Rebeca, what have you been up to in the last year? What are you working on now? And let me just tell you.

Rebeca (01:03):
Because the thing that you guys didn't know is, ever since starting my company, the 1C Story Network, you know, we started just as a podcast network. That's. We were just making podcast shows. And then, you know, people would come back to me and say, oh, but you work in film and television. Because they knew me from the nonprofit. So they would say, you're going to turn these into films and TV shows, right? And so we started getting into development, developing some of those stories into film and tv. But then from day one, I had continually been asked, are you going to have a publishing line? Of course you're going to have a publishing line. You started. I started for those who don't know me, which is like, everybody on the planet, I started as the launch publicist for the fiction line at Thomas Nelson Publishers more moons ago than I care to admit. So. And I am a traditionally published writer, so my world had been traditional publishing for quite a few years before I went into TV and film. So it was natural for people to be like, oh cool, you have a media company, so you're gonna have a traditional publishing line. And I had been working, I worked a long time trying to figure out the finances of that. And there's a reason that people aren't starting traditional publishing lines. Because, you know, it takes a long time to get to profitability. If you're not like a self pub house where the authors have to pay you to publish their books, it's a long time for the publisher to get to making enough money to justify all of the expense. And so I worked on it for a while. I even went back to school. I went to Wharton and got a certificate in quantitative modeling, which was as close to hell on earth as I will ever be in so much math.

Corinne (01:04):
can we just have a moment for that? Like that you just casually went to Wharton to like brush up on some skills?

Sarah (01:05):
Because I was so, like, so amazing.

Rebeca (01:06):
I kept thinking like, all the smart kids know this and I don't know this. And this is the reason that I can't make this work in these spreadsheets is because I don't know this. So let me just go get this information. And my sweet professor was just, he was so kind because I was like, explain it to me in words of two syllables or less. I have no idea what you're trying to tell me right now, sir. And he would say these, these huge. He would try to explain to me how we account for unknowns in formulas in Excel. And I didn't have a clue that we could even do that. I was just guessing and doing what I knew to do. So by the end of it, I actually had figured out how to start a publishing line, a traditional royalty paying publishing line and make it profitable within about three years. And then I had to get to work on right, but I don't want to do it unless I'm actually going to pay my authors enough to live on, because I am a traditionally published author. So I know, you know, you can only get so far on advances and royalties if you. And that's even if your book earns out. So I had to figure that part out. So it had taken years, but by the time you and I were talking again, I had figured it out and I had said to the industry, I'm adding Rebeca Books. I'm adding a traditional royalty paying publishing line to the 1C story network. And so I was in dark mode after that because I put the announcement out so that I would start getting proposals in. But then I had kind of gone dark with, okay, let me figure out what this is going to be and when it's going to launch and who are the authors and what are all the projects. So you guys didn't have a clue of any of that?

Sarah (01:07):
Not a clue. Not a clue.

Rebeca (01:08):
And I heard you and I was like, oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. This could be perfect.

Corinne (01:09):
Well, and then we had also gone dark.

Rebeca (01:10):
Yeah.

Corinne (01:11):
Yes. We were like, we need a minute here to regroup and whatever's coming next is going to be a different direction. So we need a clean slate, you know, so we just knew that we needed a minute. So we were looking for that attorney because we knew that in order to move forward with our work, we had to be prepared to get sued. Like, we were looking for someone who could represent us in the event that we get served over moving forward with our book. So we weren't interested in figuring out what was going on with our former publisher. We weren't interested in, you know, it was unfair that we lost our contract. It was, you know, contract interference is what we were told. And that there is a claim to be had. But we were interested in how do we move forward with our work.

Sarah (01:12):
Right.

Corinne (01:13):
And every single piece of counsel that we received was, you have to be prepared with representation because of the threats that have come against you. You have to be prepared to defend yourself if at some point that comes to a head. So the representation we were looking for was someone who could defend our work moving forward. It wasn't, you know, we weren't out there looking to pursue anything or pursue a claim against anyone. We were looking for somebody who could help us stay safe. Right. And that's so true. That was surprisingly difficult. because we also were, you know, we also knew that this might have to get harder before it gets easier, or it might have to get harder before we find someone who could stand with us effectively. So to be in a conversation with you, Rebeca, and for you to be like, oh, I've already got somebody, like I got somebody in house, we're like, that was such a relief because that at least gave us somewhere to start. And this belief that we, that our story wasn't done, we were refusing to bury it alive. We knew that it was still relevant, we knew it was still important and we knew we were going to move forward come hell or high water. And we needed to be prepared for.

Sarah (01:14):
Hell or high water.

Corinne (01:15):
we needed to have somebody in our corner that could help us if it ever came to that point.

Rebeca (01:16):
Well, and to his credit. I mean, I called my attorney, I think, right after I got off the Zoom with you, and I said, you know, there's this thing, and I really want to bring it in, and let me tell you about it. And I told him what I knew about the project, which clearly was not as much as I know now, but, you know, I remembered the project from when I had been at that publishing house and I had just gotten off the Zoom with you guys, where you had told me what had happened. And so I said, here's the thing. If we bring this in, you know, if they come against us the way they came against the other publishing house, do we have capacity? Can we deal with that with everything else that's going on inside this company in terms of growth? Because we're adding this line. We have this podcast line. We still have film and television development shows going. And so it was like, can we. Do we have capacity to address this if they come against us the way that they came against this other publishing house? And, I mean, I barely had the question out of my mouth before he was like, why would we not? Why would we not? They need to be able to tell their story. They're just trying to tell their story. And I said, well, that's what. That's what I thought. I thought, they're just trying to tell their story. Let's just let them tell their story. And he said, they're not even saying that these organizations are still doing this today. They're making no current claims. They're talking about their story of walking through this, and everybody gets to tell their story, which is why he and I are such good friends, too. And so I said, okay, well, then I think I'm gonna take it on. He said, okay, let me know when you need me. Okay. So, I mean, to his credit, I will say he asks the right questions, too, of, you know, do you believe in them? I said, absolutely. He said, well, you know, are they doing this to harm those organizations? No, they are not. They really are just motivated by wanting to help other people who are going through similar things, and they think that they can do that by sharing their story and making their story public. And he said, well, then we should let their. Let their story become public. So he m. Got behind it right from the first phone call.

Corinne (01:17):
Well, Rebeca, I remember you asking, you know, we were. We had to share what kind of the extent of what the threats were and what that felt like. And I remember you like, okay, send over that packet. And I was like, oof. Okay, like, because you don't know me and he doesn't know me. And here I'm going to send you this packet where somebody is really working hard to discredit me. And that was really vulnerable to just be like, I'm going to send this to you so that you know what you're getting into. You know, the, you know, the cost.

Rebeca (01:18):
Right?

Corinne (01:19):
Because we keep talking about that like, you know, you have to weigh the cost. And that was only fair for you and he to know exactly what had, you know, what had taken place. And so I just, I remember, It's just so meaningful, you know, to be told. Even again, I believe you. even when someone, I mean, because you know, you personally know how it feels for someone to try to discredit you just because. You know, when you hadn't even shared your story yet. so yeah, the vulnerability of sharing what was being said about me in attempt to silence me was. That took a minute. And your response, and his response was so simple and so clear and that was such scaffolding around my spine, you know, that just. I remember I just, I felt like I sat a little bit taller and it was like, okay, this might get really, really hard. Like shit might really hit the fan, but we're not alone. And man, isn't that why we all tell our stories? Isn't that why we read other people's stories, is to just feel a little less alone. And the fact that that actually has been what has not only taken place through the writing of our manuscript, but it's also taken place in this synergy here and this, this flow, here is that we just feel a little less alone with the things that we've lived through. I just, I will never get tired of that. Like, it will never not amaze me that we can participate in each other's stories in that way. And Sarah and I keep saying about our, about our book, like we just want, we want to, we want other people to find themselves in between the pages of our book the way that we find ourselves in between the pages of other people's books. And if that can happen, I mean, what, what, what's better than that? So, I don't know. I just feel like even in this, even in this little, this dialogue that we're having this conversation we're having today and remembering all these pieces of, you know, where we've, where we've been coming from in this, it's like this is what we're doing. We're. We're so woven into each Other's stories. And we didn't even realize it in the moment. And now it's just. It's really special.

Rebeca (01:20):
I remember seeing that packet because, yeah, we did our research based on the packet as well, of course. Because, you know, as the, as a publisher, I've had to explain this to all of the authors that we have now of it's a, it's an enormous responsibility to be a publisher, because every decision you make doesn't just affect that project. It doesn't just reflect on those authors and their brand and their authenticity and their character. It's the entire line. You know, it's why it's such a tragedy. If, I remember there was one of the Big Ten publishers about, about 10 years ago that it came out that one of their books had some major plagiarism in it. And that was such a tragedy, not only because it was a New York Times bestselling book already, but also because it impacts the integrity of the line when that happens. And it, you know, it happens. We're humans. It happens. You know, things get through that shouldn't get through. But I remember when I got the packet, I was like, okay, well, for the good of the line, I have to make absolutely sure that my instincts are not misleading me here. let me do my research. Let the attorney do his research. Let's all do our due diligence. And I came back and asked some questions that I don't know about you answering them, but they were hard for me to ask you because in the packet, the things that were in that packet were so familiar to me. The resonance of them from my own experience of not having been believed when I had come forward with something years ago. And I was like, this is. Do you guys have a playbook or something that you hand each other when we decide to speak out? And this tells you how to come against us.

Sarah (01:21):
This is how it works.

Rebeca (01:22):
It just was so echoes of my own life experience that I thought, this is odd. This is odd and strange. I really, for a moment, I was like, is there a playbook that you guys are all working off of when we decide to speak out? And so the irony of just, like, when that publisher, you know, was out there telling everybody not to believe me and, you know, and I wasn't saying anything. So the irony that his actions are, what caused people to come to me and find out what happened, their action toward you, and sending that packet for me was just another affirmation of, nope, she's telling the truth. I Mean, you just don't do that. If someone is. If someone is out there lying about you, then just wait. Because lies get found out. Totally. You really can just wait a second and people will figure it out. You know, it's kind of like, ah, the whole what's going on with the Blake Lively, Justin Baldoni thing. Not to bring them into this, but just wait a second. Put the information out there and people will figure out what's going on. Same situation here. I saw that packet and I was like, m all right, she's telling the truth. If I had any doubt, which I actually didn't beforehand, but if I had before, when I saw the communication that was coming against you, it was just. So what I now know now I think of it now as textbook. There's gotta be a textbook out there or something.

Corinne (01:23):
Well, when we talk about playbook, you know, I'll never forget learning from Rachel Cargill. And this must have been circa 20. I think we were just back from Thailand. So I really do think it was 2018 was the first time that I came across the part of her work that was dealing with Darvo, the D A, R, V O acronym. And it is. It is textbook. You know, whether it was, you know, the first time I was called a liar in a press release by them or whether it was this packet that they had assembled. It was the classic deny attack, reverse victim and offender, right?

Rebeca (01:24):
It was just like.

Corinne (01:25):
It was like, no, we're the victims and she's the villain. And it was like, imagine. Imagine being afraid of me. And I'm over here like this, right? Like that. That. Like the idea that you would be so afraid of someone sharing their story that you would spin the narrative to be the victim. and yet it happens again and again and again and with no deviation. You watch it happen in the news, you watch it happen politically, entertainment. You watch it happen personally, you watch it happen in.

Rebeca (01:26):
Well, Sarah, I think to some extent you saw that happen at the organization that you were a part of, at the church that we were part of.

Sarah (01:27):
And that's part of what we parallel throughout our book is showing they're really different circumstances. They happen in opposite parts of the world. And yet there's so many similarities to the way that these systems operated throughout the process of being confronted with their own behavior. And that how many conversations have we had since sharing even just the little bits that we have, post those experiences where people have reached out to us, whether it's in person or it's in dms where it's like, I have a story too, right? And it was that the entire me too movement. It's, it's sad to me, but I really am at this point pretty certain that every woman I know has a story, has had some experience. Knows someone who's had an experience, whether it's firsthand or secondhand, where they have not been believed, where they have been manipulated, gaslit, you know, silenced, in some way, which is just devastating. And that just lights up that fire in me that says no more. This is not okay. This is not how we're doing this.

Corinne (01:28):
Honestly. Honestly, anybody who has known me knows that, like, I have been a little, I have erred on the side of following the rules my entire life. Like, I call myself a recovering rule follower because, that is, that is my, like my closet isn't full of skeletons, you know, because I had been so obsessed with following the rules to my own detriment sometimes. Right. So the packet. And to have someone come against you and to take things from your life, things that I'm actually damn proud of, and try to spin them in a way that makes me look, ah, that puts me in a negative light is. Doesn't work. Right. So it's, it's not like there was this big bad packet of all my wrongdoings. Have I been a perfect person? No, but, but the point is, is that I'm looking through the packet and I'm like, actually like, well, that's a pretty good picture. I actually like that picture. Thanks for taking that one. Or, you know that post that I wrote that you're saying was me doing something bad? Like, I actually thought that post was really well written. I'm proud of that one. Or this thing that I experienced with my family years ago. Like, I'm actually really proud of that. However, I do think that when you find your courage, when you have a moment, and we all do, we all, we all come to this, this point in our life at some point when you have a moment where you find your courage and you find your voice, you will have multiple opportunities to use it. So like speaking up, doing the right thing, telling the truth, like searching for a point of justice, like that is not a one time gig. That it's not like one. You get one chance and then you use it up. And if you do it twice, then all of a sudden you have an mo. Or all of a sudden you got an agenda and it's like, if that's the accusation that my agenda is speaking up or that my agenda is telling the truth or that my agenda is searching for a point of justice when someone has caused harm. Guilty. You know, it's like, if I ever did have to defend any of that, it would be my pleasure. It would be my pleasure. So when your attorney says, you know, yes, let's move forward, the worst case scenario is that we have an opportunity to tell the whole story, which that's not what this book is. This book is a beautiful trajectory of healing and. And grief and everything in between.

Rebeca (01:29):
That was something that struck me about your manuscript. Actually, after I read the packet, there was so much, fear laced throughout the organizations. We need to see the manuscript. We need to see the manuscript. We need to see the manuscript. And it was. It made me smile with sadness because I thought you are so centering yourself in what these women are doing. And the irony is that you're like this tiny little part that leads to the majority of what this manuscript is, which is healing, which is how did, what did we do in the aftermath? How did we get through this to a place where we are not just whole, but also wiser women, more equipped women able to move through the world in an even better way. And that's the vast majority of what you guys write about. It's like they're making themselves such a central part of it, and it's just not. It is a catalyst that sent you guys into the desert to do with and deal with what you did. But that's all it was, was an experience that served as a catalyst. So it's not like there's this big giant tell all salacious. Let me tell you every single detail of every single thing that's ever happened. It really is more like, okay, this horrible thing happened, like what you guys went through in episode one of the show. You know, that's it. It's episode one. You know, I'm sure you guys are gonna have thousands of episodes if you don't get annoyed with this whole medium creating. Creating episodes like this. And it's like it was this tiny little part that you really, as my teenage daughter likes to say, she says it's. It's. What does she say all the time? It's not that serious. Like, it's not that serious.

Corinne (01:30):
It's not that deep.

Rebeca (01:31):
She says that all the time. Like you're. You're centering something that's not centered. Stop it. It's not that. It's not that serious, Mom. And I think it's the same thing here. Of you served as a catalyst. What you did was horrible. it needs to be said out loud that what you did was horrible. Don't do that again.

Sarah (01:32):
Yeah.

Rebeca (01:33):
Now let's get on to the real story of how these women walked through the aftermath. That's really where the good stuff is.

Sarah (01:34):
You know, so true.

Rebeca (01:35):
And I appreciated that both of you did that so just faithfully in your writing.

Sarah (01:36):
Thank you for naming that. I think, you know, one thing that we, we made the decision, moving forward to, to really recognize that the story doesn't remain in 2018 or in the, in the past. The story is ongoing and everything that we are living through becomes part of the story and is still our story to tell and to own. And being able to watch how what really started out as this book that told our story, but in a way that after legal review. After legal review and all the effort had really whittled it down and chipped away at so much of the heartbeat of that story to now be in a position where we're looking at different platforms. This opportunity with the, podcast, ways to tell the story that allow it to breathe and allow it to be bigger and allow it to just exist without the restraints of fear. Right. But that to me is a much more interesting story. Anyway, so, yeah, pulling us back to this little Zoom call.

Corinne (01:37):
But Sarah, we were like, we got off that call and we were like, wait, what just happened? And we were like, wait, did you hear what I heard? Like she was talking to us about publishing. Like, wait, what? it was like so surreal that we were kind of like that. I remember that it was the second meeting that we were like, we're gonna have to kind of ask her to be really clear. Like she's gonna say it.

Sarah (01:38):
She's gonna have to say it. she's gonna have to say it. That's how it's gonna work. Yeah. Because again, we're also coming from like we'd had our hearts broken and the dream we'd been holding for so long had been crushed. And so we're like nervous to out in our work out there. We're like, do you like us? Do you want to hang out with us?

Corinne (01:39):
Can we sit with you at lunch?

Sarah (01:40):
Yeah, exactly. It felt that way.

Corinne (01:41):
Yeah.

Sarah (01:42):
And so was it that second Zoom that was a follow up?
That we kind of had to have the DTR.

Rebeca (01:44):
Yeah.

Corinne (01:45):
Ah, it was 100% a DTR.

Sarah (01:46):
A DTR.

Corinne (01:47):
Yeah. That define the relationship for anybody who did not go to a small Christian college. Or work at one.

Sarah (01:48):
Wait, is that, what is that a Christian thing?

Corinne (01:49):
I never heard it. I never heard it until I came to work at the college. And then it was like. So I don't know if it was just like, you know, younger pop culture.

Sarah (01:50):
Or if it could just be we might be showing our age too. That could be what that is. I don't know.

Corinne (01:51):
I don't know. Yeah, I was like, oh, dtr. Like this is what all the girls are saying. anyway, we. Not only did we like really need that, but then Rebeca, you came to the table with more. And like more ideas than we were even like accustomed to talking about. And that was, the vision that you had not only for your own company and the different avenues with which you wanted to release, you know, creative work. The fact that you saw us as a valuable part of that and that you saw our work as something that could fit within multiple arms of your company was absolutely mind blowing to us. Like the fact that, ah, we're sitting here with microphones is like, what?

Rebeca (01:52):
So I finally found it. my years are off. I was scrolling through my own social, going, when did I tell people that I was going to do this publishing? Like November 21, 2023. Ah, and so I had started, I told everybody, okay, I'm gonna do this thing. I finally figured out the math. And then.

Corinne (01:53):
So funny to me that the math was the thing for you. You had to figure out the math first thing.

Sarah (01:54):
I love that.

Rebeca (01:55):
and when I finally figured out the math and I put it out there that I was doing it, then I did do like 10 episodes of a show called Raising Rebeca Books because I was like, I'll take everybody with me on this journey of what it looks like to build a traditional publishing house. So that was out there. And then I realized that I was not following this linear, story that I thought was going to unfold of creating Rebeca Books. It was like two steps forward, one step back, trying to figure it out. And it was too much to try to document it while it was happening. So I think I stopped after like episode 10 or episode 11 because I was like, I just let me just do the work for a second and get us forward because we would like, I would find a project and then I'd be like, no, not that project. And I thought I need to not be talking about all these projects before they actually are a go. And I actually know when things are coming out. And I thought you were reaching out to me. Like, my hope was I can get book Two. I had no idea you were no longer at, I was like, let me go get book two from those women. Because I loved what I had seen at Chalice, and I had just been like, that's gone. Which is why on the zoom, I'm like, let's talk about book. And then you tell me we don't have a book contract. I'm like, hell, yeah, let's do it.

Sarah (01:56):
Oh, my gosh. I did not know that. I love that.

Corinne (01:57):
Just even I forgot all about that.

Rebeca (01:58):
I was like, why was I talking book with them then? I mean, I didn't know.

Corinne (01:59):
This is such fun backstory.

Sarah (02:00):
There's so much more, and I just.

Corinne (02:01):
So much finding out. We are finding out the lore, like, in real time right now.

Sarah (02:02):
So I remembered that early on, I had found you, Rebeca, on Instagram, like a stalker, and followed you. So you were. You were, like, somewhere in my radar, but you’re never on Instagram. So we just. I was like, I'm gonna throw this out there. This is a long shot. I don't have her email. I don't know how to find her. But, like, we're. We're feeling kind of desperate. And we're also just throwing out feelers everywhere. Like, we're not gonna say no. We'll. We'll take. We're just, you know, we're not gonna say our no for us. So reached out, just really casual, you know, like, hey, we've got some updates on our book. Couple questions. Any interest in a quick, quick zoom? By the way, this is Sarah. Do you remember me? It was, like, so low stakes. I just. I did not even really, I don't know, expect to hear back from you. I was like, well, I'll try it.

Rebeca (02:03):
Well, it's kind of magic that you did, because honestly, I am on certain social media platforms pretty faithfully, but Instagram is not one of them because it's just never really latched with my brain how it's like making me work on a Mac computer. I wish my brain could do that because I feel like the cool people use Macs, especially over here. In the film and TV world, everybody uses a Mac, but it's just my brain does not function well with the Instagram platform. And so every time I've ever done a post on there, it's been like, okay, it's probably been like three months. I should go do something and go make a post. So I had made a post long before about, the show Raising Rebeca Books that I had started because I was going to document the whole story of building the publishing house that I had finally decided, since I'd figured out the math, that I had finally decided I was going to add to the company. But I went back after. I knew we were going to have this conversation. I looked and I saw. I posted about it one time. And so, of course, you know me. Talk about centering ourselves in each other's stories. I was like, oh, well, she knows that I have a publishing house now, because clearly she's listening to my show, and so she wants. That's what she wants to talk about. Of course. Clearly.

Corinne (02:04):
I love it.

Sarah (02:05):
I did not. I had no idea.

Rebeca (02:06):
It was like, no, we need an attorney.

Corinne (02:07):
That's what we're reaching out to you about. Yeah.

Sarah (02:08):
Really different conversation we need to have.

Rebeca (02:09):
With you, which is fun, because I'm a communication nerd. I mean, that's what my degrees are in. And it's so. You know, I can so think I know what's going on and really have no clue what's going on, which is really fun to think about. Of you guys were like, let's call that woman that we knew that acquired us into this other house because she mentioned that she has this attorney. And I'm over here going, oh, maybe I can get book two from them. This will be great. Like, I was so sad that I wasn't going to be a part of book one, because I had acquired it for that house. And I was like, like, it's okay. Maybe you can get them with book two and book three and book four. Like, have they signed another contract yet? So that's. That's why I reached back out to you. Oh, my gosh, let's have a conversation. Who knew?

Corinne (02:10):
And we were like, we're still over here with book one. Yeah. By the way, we have no hope.

Sarah (02:11):
For years, years later, we're still over here with book one.

Rebeca (02:12):
Because it had been, like, two years.

Corinne (02:13):
Yeah.

Sarah (02:14):
Oh, yes, yes. Quite aware.

Rebeca (02:15):
I knew that there had been. I knew because there were, you know, mutuals in the industry that were letting me know this is what's happening at the house since you left. I never called anybody and was like, what's going on? Since I left, I just. I really had to just close the door. It was a lot of. I had to mourn a lot of things that I planned to do there. And so, but I would hear, oh, well, this book is now not coming out, and this book is delayed indefinitely, and this book is not coming out. But I had not heard. Heard about your book? I had heard about other ones that I had acquired that then were not coming out or indefinitely delayed and things like that. So yeah, I was kind of shocked when you said, oh, we still don't have a book out. And it's been, it's been a minute since.

Corinne (02:16):
And speaking of Instagram, like, bless the hearts of, of anybody who has been interested in the path our book has taken. Because, you know, we're like, I mean, it just took so long. And then people would start getting emails and they'd be like, oh, I, I saw the, I saw your book got pushed until this date. Or I saw, you know, it's. Now it's unavailable. What's going on? There was so much, There was, you know, we were fielding so many questions because it was taking so long and there was constantly changes and we were getting to the point where it was like, you know, we didn't really know what to say anymore because we didn't necessarily have answers. And it was so. And talk about mourning. Like, we were, we were trying to figure that out in real time, like how to respond and what to say and you know, knowing that we didn't want to just bury it, but also not really knowing what was going to happen with it. So every time there would be another change, people would be like, oh my gosh, when is it coming out? And we're like, that's a really good question.

Sarah (02:17):
We wish we knew.

Rebeca (02:18):
We were not you. You probably felt very alone in that. But I know now that was going on with quite a few of the authors at that house once I, because I had, I had necessarily taken on so much because he had been on sabbatical, that all of the plans were mine for all of the titles that were coming out and the sales team knew it and the industry knew it. I had based all of these plans on what I've done for 20 years in publishing and what I can accomplish and when I'm no longer there. That publisher has no, no experience whatsoever in the publishing business outside of the role that he's in right now. None. He's never been on the marketing side, Never been on the side. He's. He'd never done anything in publishing until he became a publisher at that house. And so there was an inability to fulfill all of these plans that I had made because there was nobody inside that could do it. And I guess he could have hired it, maybe. I, guess he could have, I don't know. But there certainly was no one in house left who could make sure everything that had been promised and planned was executed. So it wasn't just you guys. I mean, yeah, that's. I had a lot of people reaching out to me, going, you told me this was going to happen. I was like, I would love for it to happen, but I'm not at the house anymore. I'm so, so sorry. It, was a really hard time. One of my things is telling someone that you'll do something and then not doing it is just. If you've known me five minutes, I've probably quoted to you the whole let your yes be yes and your no be no thing. And it just. That was one of the hardest things that I had to come to terms with, was your yes cannot be yes if someone is preventing you from doing it. So you just have to trust that it's all going to work out the way that it was supposed to work out and keep. Keep going, Keep moving forward. It's going to be okay.

Corinne (02:19):
Keep moving forward.

Rebeca (02:20):
And so then when you reached out to me, I was like, oh, okay, I'll get to work with them, on something anyway. It's going to be okay. And maybe I can. I honestly was like, maybe I can make up for whatever didn't happen on book one.

Corinne (02:21):
You're like, by the way, by the.

Sarah (02:22):
Way, we're still waiting on that one. well, and, you know, speaking to what you just said, not to spiritualize it, but that to think about, really, one of the things that felt so remarkable when we got off that initial call, Zoom, call with you, Rebeca, was everything unfolded the way it did, timing wise. Kind of couldn't have happened any sooner. You know, you are just getting to a point where you were acquiring authors and launching and, you know, moving forward with your. With your business. And we happened to just sort of fall into this moment of alignment that no one could have forced or made. We couldn't have planned it that way. So many pieces fell into place, even though some of them were heartbreaking and devastating. And it doesn't make the way that they were handled. Okay. I look back at it, is grateful the word of the day? Because I feel like it might be like, I look back at it with so much gratitude, like now, honestly, because of where we are. And I'm so glad that we are where we are because it feels like who's with us now is within that alignment of who we are and within our work. And there's just so much integrity that flows, you know, always between us that I really can't Imagine it any other way, you know?

Rebeca (02:23):
Well, and, not just me with you guys or you guys with me. You know, I had announced probably a year before you reached out to me that I was going to do this publishing thing. And it took that year for the people that were going to be doing it with me to solidify. I mean, who started on that journey with me was certainly not who was still on that journey with me a year later of let's get this done. And if you had guys had gotten, mixed up in all of that and everything of me trying to figure out, well, who am I supposed to be publishing? What am I supposed to be publishing? How is the this supposed to look and how is it supposed to work, you know, operationally with everything else that's going on here? How does all of this flow together? I had to get through all of that part of the Rebeca books journey before I actually could be of value to what you guys were bringing to the table. So, yeah, the timing is just. Grateful is a good word for it. I'm really glad you did not reach out to me before you did. Yeah, it would have been a little bit of a messier story. I think we probably still would have gotten there, but it would have certainly not looked like what I think has been just a really easy pieces falling into their place kind of a journey of. Of course this is happening. It was supposed to happen. This is how it's supposed to be.

Corinne (02:24):
And in that, like, you know, there was this sense that there was something that was outside of us that we were being invited into, and yet we had to show up to it and do the hard work every single day because it wasn't going to write itself. Right. Like, we had to really show up to that invitation with, like, all our blood, sweat and tears.

Sarah (02:25):
So many tears.

Corinne (02:26):
So many tears. Just kidding. So anyway, I. We had to really show up to that invitation and do the hard work and. And coming back to that part of the conversation where, you know, we had to respect that work the same way we would respect a job that we had to clock in and clock out of. And we really did put in the hours and hours and hours.

Sarah (02:27):
I just think it's adorable of all three of us that we came in with certain expectations and understanding. And then I think all three of us were like, wait a minute. Trying to catch up in real time. Like, I didn't wait, I didn't see.

Corinne (02:28):
Okay, here we are.

Sarah (02:29):
What's happening right now?

Rebeca (02:30):
But we got you. You said you were like, let us tell You. What has happened? Our book isn't coming out. And I remember when you told me. I don't remember the exact words that you said, but I remember when you communicated to me that your book wasn't coming out. And it was just this overwhelming sadness for the world of, oh, that's such a beautiful thing. And the world's not gonna have it. Cause it was just such a. It would be like discovering what a diamond is and then being like, I'm just not gonna tell the world that that exists. It was that level of, oh, such a loss, Such a loss to the literary landscape to not have that out there. And then that quickly, on the heels of it came, you know, the guilt again of, is there anything that I could have done to try to make it work differently at that house so that these projects could have come out the way that they were planned? Because the idea that somehow you guys were going to have done what I knew had been excruciating work even to that point, because I had seen the manuscript, that you were going to have put all of that in, and then no one was going to benefit from it because it wasn't going to see the light of day. It just. It was just anathema. I was like, there's no way. There's no way that's not coming. Like, how do you. Okay, maybe you can't do everything that I promised at that publishing house, but you can get the book out. Just put the book out there, let people see. was just such a really sad moment when you said, no, the book's not coming out. We've lost our contract. And then you were like, let me tell you how we no longer have.

Sarah (02:31):
A contract.

Rebeca (02:32):
Which I laugh about now. I know it wasn't funny at the moment, but it's so on brand for that publisher to do something like that.

Sarah (02:33):
It was funny. It's so ridiculous. It's like, are you kidding me? Like, what are we doing here?

Corinne (02:34):
We're like, you can't write this, like, the way that this is, going down. We're like, are you kidding me? Like, this would. It's like, are we in a. Are we in a sketch? Is this, like, sketch comedy? What's happening? You can't write this.

Sarah (02:35):
And then we're like.

Corinne (02:36):
And that's when we were like, oh, wait a second. This just became part of the story. Oh, wait a second. Every single thing that was happening were like, just like you said before, Sarah, like, the story wasn't just, The story wasn't just what happened, you know, back then. It's like the story keeps growing and this unfortunately became part of it. but then fortunately, so did the phone call with you.

Sarah (02:37):
Exactly.

Corinne (02:38):
Which really started kind of a whirlwind.

Sarah (02:39):
I feel like things happen fast after that phone, ah, call things. Things happened fast in the best way. In the best way. It felt like we went like whiplash. A little like we went from having our hearts broken.

Corinne (02:40):
Yeah.

Sarah (02:41):
To suddenly having hope. And then as we continued the conversation with you, Rebeca, and realized kind of had this moment of like, this, this. There's so much potential. I think this is going to happen. And really checking in with ourselves is this. How are we feeling? Is this feeling like what we want? Is this what's right? Because really we've tried throughout the entire process of writing this book to make sure that we're not getting in the way of it. And that's. That lent itself throughout the editing process. There were so many moments where we had to make judgment calls and, you know, kill our darlings. It was that. It was that kind of energy to kind of go, this is open handed and we're going to see what the book wants to be and we're going to see how the book wants to come out into the world. And checking in with ourselves, kind of asking that question as we're interacting with you, Rebeca, and just feeling so right and so big. And that's one thing that we talked about a lot, Corinne. I think right after we'd met with you, Rebeca, was how you were asking for more. You believed in us so much, in our voice. And you saw multiple opportunities for that voice to exist, not just singularly, and asked us to dream bigger than we'd allowed ourselves to. We had spent two years making ourselves really small because we just felt so lucky to be at the table. And you were like, no, like bigger, more. What else? And this and what about that? And we, Corinne and I were just like in the best way overwhelmed with just like hope. And it had been a long time since we'd felt that way. So I guess even if I'm just gonna take a minute and just say thank you for that. Thank you for that. Because that, that was a life changing moment for us.

Rebeca (02:42):
Well, it is. I don't, There aren't like big enough words sometimes, probably because of my vocabularic ignorance. But it really is my honor and pleasure to get, to have a role in bringing your project. All the projects that we're doing. When I sit and think, I get to be the one that makes sure that other people know that exists. That's. That's insane to me that I get to do that. It's because I spent a lot of time in the business making myself small, you know, too. Of, just think about it in this way. Just think about it in this way. And every time that a new person finds out about my company, it's like, oh, you're not just publishing. Oh, you're not just podcasting, or you're not just film. You're not just tv. You need to really just pick a lane and stay in it. And it's like, no, I'm just story. If it's a story that the world needs, then I will find all the avenues that could possibly make sense for that story to find its way to people consuming it and being changed by it and changed in a good way. Whatever. It's all about story. And so, yeah, when you came to me, I was like, m. It could be a book, it could be a podcast. It could be this, it could be that.

Corinne (02:43):
What all can we do?

Rebeca (02:44):
Think of all the ways that we can reach all the people. And they're going. When they. When you get to the end of your book, especially when you get to the end of your book, there's such a sense of hope and. Which is crazy to say, because it's a tough journey that you guys go on.

Corinne (02:45):
What,

Sarah (02:46):
What?

Rebeca (02:47):
A little challenging. What you guys. But at the end of it, it's like, oh, okay, they not only survived that, but they're these thriving women now because of that. Like, they found a way. It's like what you said at the end of the last episode, you know, the thing that was meant to hurt you was part of your healing. It wasn't just so much a part of your healing. Yes. But you emerged these incredible women. You were already really cool women to begin with. Let's be real. But, like, you have these incredible women at the end of it, of you speak and, like, this wisdom just drips off. Y' all just say it like it's normal. Like, every woman just knows these things, and they don't, you know these things. You know how to express yourselves in this way because you did the work. You were faced with this fire that could have consumed you, and you were like, no, it's gonna burn. It's gonna burn. It's gonna scar.

Corinne (02:48):
Mmm.

Rebeca (02:49):
But I'm gonna figure out a way that I'm still going to speak from that scar. And I was just like, the fact that I get to put that out there in the world, please. My work is easy compared to what you guys live through.

Sarah (02:50):
Well, and it's led to this. This podcast, which is just. We're at the beginning of this really exciting journey, and already I'm, like, pinching myself every time we get to record an episode. I'm like, are we the luckiest in the whole world? I think the answer is yes. Like, this is the most fun. We get to do this for our job. This is so fun. So. So we've got this podcast, which is a way that we are sharing our story and really getting to bring it out into the world in this format. But that's not the only way that we're bringing our story out into the world. Surprise.

Corinne (02:51):
Surprise has come to be a book.

Sarah (02:52):
We have another surprise. Yes. Okay. So, Corinne, do you want to do the honors? It's just so vulnerable.

Corinne (02:53):
We've really buried the lead here, so it feels like we really did. We've been talking about all of the, you know, how we got to this point, but really the story lies in the fact that it was such a whirlwind, and it happened so fast, and then all of a sudden, Rebecca's sending us a new contract.

Sarah (02:54):
so exciting. And still, like, I get all tingly thinking about it right now. I'm like, what? That really happened? That was our real life.

Corinne (02:55):
Yes.

Sarah (02:56):
A book contract.

Corinne (02:57):
Yeah.

Sarah (02:58):
There we were again, toasting with champagne and trying to, you know, catch up to what was happening in the best way.

Corinne (02:59):
And. And then, you know, we're toasting with our bubbly, and we're taking pictures of each other through the. Through the screen as we're on a zoom call together. And then we had the question about cover and title and, Rebeca, you coming to us knowing this was going to be, a big ask to ask us to hold that loosely. And, Sarah, do you remember how both of us were, like, really surprised at how open we were to letting her take on a new shape and a new cover and a new. Like, we were just so open to it, which we were really surprised about, because Rebeca, you know, we have a lot of opinions about a lot of things. Couple.

Rebeca (03:00):
A couple here and there.

Sarah (03:01):
What feelings about shocking.

Rebeca (03:02):
Which is great for the most part, honestly. It is, for the most part, great.

Corinne (03:03):
We're so lucky that we think that.

Rebeca (03:04):
I just want to say another part that was going on in the background that you guys didn't know. So it took a year to finalize what would be the contract for Rebeca Books. What would be our standard contract to offer to our authors. Because, you know, I had said I wanted to figure out the financial end, how to make it more financially feasible for authors to publish with us. And I was that that constituted adding things to contracts that give them a seat at the table. If we develop it into a film or TV or podcast, it. It gave them a seat at the table for corporate profit margin and stuff like that. And that those are big clauses to put into author contracts. And so that attorney that I love and I had gone back and forth and back and forth and back and forth on. I would write something and he would say, I know what you mean, but that's not what that says, because I'm not an attorney. And so it had taken a year. I had even, like, floated the contract to the rest of the Rebeca Books authors and said, okay, everybody read this. We had had a meeting where we read it all out loud together, and we're like, does everybody understand everything that this means? What are your questions? What's not clear? So I was so excited to get to use my new contract, too. Oh, I get this project that I love, and I have a contract ready to go. I just need to put in who it is and what it is. So, it let me move quickly because I had done. It was like what you were saying earlier, Corinne, about you've got to do the work, you've got to show up. Because I had done the work and I had shown up. I had this document where I could formalize what I wanted to do here, but that itself had. You know, if you'd gotten in touch with me before. No, wouldn't have had that. You would have had to live through all of that.

Corinne (03:05):
Well, and that contract was no small thing. It was.

Sarah (03:06):
Yeah.

Corinne (03:07):
There was so much to it. I remember. I remember sending it to my friend Allison, who's in law school at the time. And I was like, I need you to look at this. Like, look at. Look at the. Look at the size of this contract. Look how many details. But really, what the. What the overarching idea was that I came away from. From that contract was, look how much care is being put into each detail. It wasn't like, oh, I feel like there's something here to trick me. It was like, no, look at how much thought and presence and care is being put into the different pieces of this work. And I always love to, I'm obsessed with Shonda Rhimes, and one of the things that she always says is, stay ready so you don't have to get ready.

Rebeca (03:08):
That's right.

Corinne (03:09):
And I just. You were like ready to go with that contract. You were like, I got ready, I'm gonna stay ready, so I have to get ready. Yeah.

Sarah (03:10):
Oh, that's so good. It's so true.

Rebeca (03:11):
Yeah. That was a lot of work, that contract. Because I, you know, the idea is always. And I've been this way my whole career, whatever house I was working at or whoever I was working with, my hope has always been that I can take care of all the things that are not the content creation so that the content creator can just focus on creating the content. So whether that's you guys out doing speaking engagements, you shouldn't be having to worry about contracts and what kind of mic and what kind of water and are the books going to be there to sell or if you're going on tour, you shouldn't have to be worrying about how are we getting from point A to point B and how are people getting fed and where's the electricity? I, just someone else needs to take care of all of that so that you can focus on being who you are and showing up you, your full self. Showing up to the written word or the spoken word or whatever we're doing. And so the contract is written in such a way where we take on all of that so that you can just show up as the person that you are creating the content that you create. And that, yeah, that took a lot to figure out because I also didn't want to put us in a place where I said we're going to do it in this way. And then technology changes in two years and the contract doesn't make sense. So it was, we had to hold that space for when to be specific and when to not be specific about what we were doing. and it was the same, it was kind of that holding things with loose hands. That was the spirit that I came to you guys with when I was like, okay, I really want to publish this. But your previous publisher did do what your previous publisher did with the book cover and the title. And that's really going to get in the way as we move forward. It's going to create all sorts of marketplace confusion because. for the most part when a digital footprint gets created with a title, it's just, you just can't pull that back. It's almost impossible to pull that back. And so what it had been being called if, we sent out our sales team to try to sell that in to the bookstores and the big box stores and the airport stores and all of that. There would instantly be confusion because it's all. Everybody in publishing works off the same database. So they would go into the database and they would see the old title and then this is the new title and which one do we order? And yeah, that was. I approached you guys with a lot of trepidation because I, you know, you had lived with this for so long and the title came from you and the cover came from you. You had had to drive so much of your publishing process before it got to my desk that I was like, they chose these things on purpose. These were with intent and thought and emotion and heart. And I'm going, yeah, let it go. I mean that's, that's. Yeah, there was a lot of fear and trepidation in that, in that zoom, let me tell you.

Sarah (03:12):
Oh, but you know what? I do, I, I do remember, Corinne, what you were describing, feeling surprised that my knee jerk at, at the. Just that, you know, I'm just. Rebeca, just, I'm just. Just consider this. Just consider the possibility of maybe changing the title on the cover. And I was surprised that my knee jerk was not to get really grabby and tight fisted and be like, no, absolutely not. Who do you think you are? This is precious. This is the way it is. And, and on purpose for lots of really important reasons that I can list out for you. It was just. That was so not the energy that I really. I give a lot of credit to the trust that you established with us, Rebeca, for that because we knew you'd crossed that line into, with, with us. So you were with us and we knew that and felt that deeply and experienced it in so many ways as we worked with you that we were able to take a minute, hear what you were saying, understand and really agree and really just play for a little while with, with the possibility of this is a new iteration of this work that we've been living in for years at this point. And as we continue to say, she's showing us what she wants to be, who she wants to be. This is another version of this work and this is what she wants to be. And, and who is she? What is she going to look like? And it was sort of a moment where really it was an invitation into even some healing and moving forward for us into this part of the work that she gets to have this second life, this second breath, and in that she gets a new name and she gets to look pretty in a whole new way.

Rebeca (03:13):
She's gorgeous. I have to say.

Sarah (03:14):
She's gorgeous.

Rebeca (03:15):
So you want to tell them the new title?

Corinne (03:16):
Let's tell them.

Sarah (03:17):
Go for it. Go for it.

Corinne (03:18):
Oh, wow. Well, I mean, we wrestled it for so long, and really the energy that just kept swirling was how often we talk about eyes up, the Skies Are Full of Us. And that just kept coming to the forefront again and again and again. That language that we use with each other constantly. And so we landed not only on a, gorgeous cover full of color and landscape and sky, but then we also landed on the title, the Skies Are Full of Us. Because it's not just you, it's not just me, it's all of us together in this and feeling less alone and all of the energy that has risen from everything that we've experienced individually and collectively.

Sarah (03:19):
She's coming. She's coming so soon. She's available for pre order now. She's coming into the World on September 2nd. We are so obsessed, we can't even begin to tell you how excited we are and how much we believe in this work. This book has been a long time coming. What do we say, Corinne? This is a literary event. Five, seven years in the making.

Corinne (03:20):
Seven years in the making.

Sarah (03:21):
This is a literary event happening here September 2nd, and we cannot be happier and more excited.

Rebeca (03:22):
You've been listening to Spiritual Pyro with Sarah Carter and Corinne on the 1C Story Network. Reserve your copy now of their upcoming book, the skies are full of us, wherever books are sold. Learn more about this and all the stories and storytellers in our community at justonec.com. That's J u s t o n e c.com.
The 1C Story Network. For the love of stories.

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