September 16, 2021 • 30 mins
On this episode of Sport in Focus Chris Stafford talks to boxer and author Malissa Smith who is the author of A History Of Women's Boxing which will be in its second edition in time for the 202 Tokyo Olympic Games,. Malissa is a speaker and writes frequently on the topic of women's boxing. She is also a practitioner of the sport herself and as she puts it has a keen understanding of the demands of the sweet science on the women who contest the sport, as well as the challenges they face. The sport has a curious history women’s game since it dates back to the 18th Century and we learn perhaps surprisingly that variety dancers were known to enjoy prize fighting.
Throughout boxing’s history, women have fought in and out of the ring to gain respect in a sport traditionally considered for men alone. Records of modern female boxing date back to the early eighteenth century in London, and in the 1904 Olympics an exhibition bout between women was held. Yet it was not until the 2012 Olympics—more than 100 years later—that women’s boxing was officially added to the Games. A History of Women’s Boxing traces the sport back to the 1700s, through the 2012 Olympic Games, and up to the present. Inside-the-ring action is brought to life through photographs, newspaper clippings, and anecdotes, as are the stories of the women who played important roles outside the ring, from spectators and judges to managers and trainers.
Host: Chris Stafford
For more information, links and resources plus conversations from the world of women’s sport including articles, blogs, videos and podcasts visit wispsports.com. WiSP Sports is the World’s First and Only Podcast Network for Women’s Sport with more than 60 hosts, 1300+ episodes across 50 shows and over 7 million downloads. WiSP Sports is on all major podcast players. Follow WiSP Sports on social media @WiSPsports. Contact us at info@wispsports.com.
Throughout boxing’s history, women have fought in and out of the ring to gain respect in a sport traditionally considered for men alone. Records of modern female boxing date back to the early eighteenth century in London, and in the 1904 Olympics an exhibition bout between women was held. Yet it was not until the 2012 Olympics—more than 100 years later—that women’s boxing was officially added to the Games. A History of Women’s Boxing traces the sport back to the 1700s, through the 2012 Olympic Games, and up to the present. Inside-the-ring action is brought to life through photographs, newspaper clippings, and anecdotes, as are the stories of the women who played important roles outside the ring, from spectators and judges to managers and trainers.
Host: Chris Stafford
For more information, links and resources plus conversations from the world of women’s sport including articles, blogs, videos and podcasts visit wispsports.com. WiSP Sports is the World’s First and Only Podcast Network for Women’s Sport with more than 60 hosts, 1300+ episodes across 50 shows and over 7 million downloads. WiSP Sports is on all major podcast players. Follow WiSP Sports on social media @WiSPsports. Contact us at info@wispsports.com.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Whip Sports, the Voice of Women'sWord. Hello and thank you for downloading
this episode of Sport in Focus onWHISP Sports. I'm Chris Stafford, and
(00:27):
our sport in focus on this episodeis boxing. I'm going to be talking
to Melissa Smith, who is theauthor of a History of Women's Boxing,
which is about to release a secondedition of the book to coincide with the
Tokyo twenty twenty Olympic Games. Melissaspeaks and writes frequently on the topic of
women's boxing. She's a practitioner ofthe sport itself, being an avid boxer
(00:51):
now for many years, and shehas a keen understanding of the demands of
the sweet science on the women whocan test the sport, as she puts
it, as well as the challengesthey face. Melissa, welcome and thank
you for joining me. Oh,thank you, Chris. This as wonderful.
Well, this is timely, ofcourse. The World Boxing Championships for
(01:11):
Women are taking place now currently inulan Ud in Boratia in eastern Siberia.
For anybody's wondering where that is justabout as far away as you can get.
The men's World Championships were also inRussia, recently, but this is
an even further east north of Mongolia, which is I wonder, Melissa,
why do they choose such remote areasfor World championships. Well, you know,
(01:37):
in part, it's because AIBO,which is the international umbrella organization for
the elite amateur fighting, looks tobe representative of all countries and areas in
the world farm There have been WorldChampionships in China as well as World Championships
in the United States, so thistime Eastern Iberia actually won the lottery there.
(02:01):
But it's it's an opportunity for UM, the the amateur fighters from different
regions to sort of not only showtheir prowess and and fight UM and UH
an international elite platform, but alsoto really UM acknowledge that, especially for
(02:24):
women's boxing, that this is somethingthat it's a worldwide phenomenon and a worldwide
and there's a worldwide really supporting theseathletes and in if you will, raising
the bar of the types of conteststhat we're going to see. This is
(02:45):
also the lead up to what willbe the twenty twenty Olympics, which will
be the third time that women willcontest in UM boxing and for the first
time they will actually box with fiveweight classes at first two in twenty twelve
and twenty sixteen were with three weightclasses. So these particular fights are very,
(03:09):
very exciting because they will help setthe stage for the Olympic trials that
will come in early twenty twenty.Yes, absolutely, Well, you were
out, of course, the historyof women's boxing, and we want to
look a little bit more into thatin the history because there's just such a
deep history in women's It just goesback much further than a lot of people
would imagine. I'm sure. Butyou mentioned the AABA there, the governing
(03:34):
body of boxing, and we shouldjust to bring everybody up to date.
Explain that the boxing, the governanceof the sport is going through something of
a turmoil now, Melissa. There'sa political infighting and something of a reputation
to preserve here and in order forthe for boxing to stay in the Olympic
(03:54):
movement even next year. Now we'veheard that it is guaranteed to stay in
the Olympic movement for the moment despitethis turmoil. How do you see this
unfolding now for the future of boxing. Well, I mean, I think
certainly the countries that are that haveput a great investment in both their male
(04:16):
and female boxing teams. Need toreally exert pressure on AIBA and on the
Olympic Committee to come up with abetter plan for governance of this organization to
save it. I mean, boxingis a sport that has been contested in
the Olympics since the beginning of theOlympics in Greece. So it's not as
(04:40):
if you can just walk away fromboxing as a sport. It embodies the
meaning of what the Olympics are allabout. So as you say there is
a there have been tremendous issues withAIBA, with all sorts of concerns regarding
their independent regarding their financial integrity andso on. So again, it's probably
(05:05):
best if leader organizations at the countrylevel come together along with the Olympics to
put in a better plan for governmentso that you're able to save thee elite
boxing, if you will, eliteamateur boxing, which not only is important
(05:25):
for the sport itself, but alsohelps to train those fighters who want to
go on into professional careers. Soit's certainly in everyone's interest to take a
stand and help ensure the continuity ofboxing at this elite amateur level internationally.
(05:46):
Absolutely. Well, the whole integrityof the sport is at stake here,
so hopefully it gets resolved amicably intime for the Tokyo Games this time next
year, well next September. Let'stake a look back a little at the
history. First of all, Iwant to look at your history in the
sport. Now, tell us yourstory. How did you come about box?
(06:09):
Because you're from New York, you'reyour New Yorker throw and throw you
told me so, tell us tellus your story how you got involved in
the sport. Well, you know, I grew up at during the era
of Muhammad Ali, and I wasa boxing fan as a small kid and
used to watch boxing on television withmy family. And then when I was
(06:32):
a young girl, my uncle wasgiving my brother boxing lessons and then I
kind of chyped in and said,well, will do you teach me how
to throw? You know, theold one too, And he did,
And for many years I felt soproud of myself that I knew how to
turn a jab and following it followit up with a straight right. Being
an orthodox spider. What didn't occurto me was that I could actually contest
(06:56):
in the sport, and that tookliterally many generations or many decades for me
to understand that I could actually dothat. So in the nineteen nineties I
walked into a boxing gym and havebeen training ever since. I've never been
a real amateur fighter or anything,but I am what I call a very
happy Saturday boxer that takes it prettyseriously. But out of that experience I
(07:21):
got to know female fighters. Ibox at the world famous Gleason's Gym in
Brooklyn. It's the oldest continuous gymin the United States at this point,
having been created started in the nineteenthirties, and by meeting women in the
sport, I really became very,very interested in it from their perspective of
(07:46):
how long they had been in thesport and what that history really looked like.
So I began an academic project whereI looked at women's boxing from the
standpoint of gender normative, gender heavier, if you will, And out of
that I was offered an opportunity toactually write a history of the sport.
(08:07):
Since until my book was published intwenty fourteen, none has existed. And
in looking at that project and lookingat the deep and rich history that had
never been mined, it was reallymy honor to be able to start to
tease out what that history looked like, also from the lens of knowing that
(08:28):
there were women who were boxing today, both his amateurs and his professionals,
that really had no idea of richnessof that history, or of the fact
that there were women who we evenwere contesting in the sport at a fairly
high level a generation before they hadnever even knew that they were fighters,
(08:50):
for instance, who boxed their heartsout in the nineteen seventies, or women
who didn't know the role that afighter like Jane Couch had and in legalizing
boxing in England even though they wereboxing ten years later in the United States.
So I really took it on asa labor of love, if you
will, to be able to givewomen a history of their own, if
(09:13):
you will, within the sport ofboxing, and to show that this sport
has had a deep impact not onlyon individual women who are fighters, but
also on the culture at large interms of breaking down gender barriers and the
place that boxing has had in affectingthose kind of changes in perception, things
(09:39):
that women in the sports still needto contend with. As they crossed the
velvet ropes into the ring. Well, it may surprise a lot of our
listeners the history of women in boxing, and I was very surprised that it
went back in this country to thelate nineteenth century there when two party dancers
(10:00):
of all people at variety dances actuallyfought for the pricely sum of two hundred
dollars and they also want a silverplated butter dish for their efforts. So
why variety dances then? What waswhat kind of women were we looking at
that first decided to step into thering? I mean, because you wouldn't
think variety dancers would be fighters necessarily. Well, you know, in terms
(10:28):
of the late nine nineteenth century andreally starting in the eighteen seventies, you
had men and women who worked,you know, in variety theater. I
mean there were no movies or anythinglike that, and sort of the precursor
toward Bill and some of the thingsthat would occur on the stage were not
just music or dramatic readings, butalso physical culture began to be an important
(10:54):
part of variety theater movement. Andusually that would be thing like people showing
their prowess lifting weights, or swordfighting or mock sword fighting and eventually it
started to be mock boxing drills,and in the United States this started in
(11:15):
sort of the mid eighteen seventies,and there was actually a couple that would
come on stage and they would dosword fighting, and then they would start
to do mock boxing. She wouldthen the wife would then run around the
stage and doing what was then calledpedestrianism, but really what we call today
(11:37):
is jogging. And these were allquite shocking things, but in a theatrical
environment it was something that both menand women could enjoy. So as to
why women were contesting as variety dancers, it was a way of expanding their
act. And when boxing began tobe popular in the late seventies and early
(12:01):
eighteen eighties in various variety of theatervenues, women would say, well,
that's a way to earn a living. So they learned how to the basics
of the sweet science. They alsolearned how to use speedbags or punchbags as
they were called, and would doacts that would have them doing punchbags and
(12:24):
then they would have a fight fortwo or three rounds the stage and often
would then invite anyone up, anyonein the audience to come on stage to
box with them and if they won, they would win some big amount of
money twenty five dollars or in theBritish side, which in England where this
also began to occur, they wouldbe offered twenty five pounds, which was
(12:48):
a pretty large amount of money,and as I said, it became quite
popular in the United States. Bythe eighteen nineties, women were putting on
these variety shows all across the UnitedStates in large venues and small venues,
and out of that began to dowhat we could call smoker fights, which
(13:11):
were not exactly legal but while butin small clubs. They would fight other
women and sometimes men in four roundbouts, sometimes all the way up to
ten or twelve rounds, some withbare knuckles and some wearing very light gloves.
But it was really these women whowere trying to earn a living,
(13:33):
mostly working class women who were applyingthe boards of the stage, and just
added an additional skill, if youwill, to their to their repertoire so
they could be employed. There werewomen who were singers, women who were
dancers, women who would do othertypes of physical culture acts. There was
(13:56):
something with dumbbells that they would doand it was just a way to earn
Well, I was going to cometo the class system here, and you
touched on it there that these wereworking class women there, Malissa, is
this and does it continue to bea sport that appeals to certain classes of
people? Well? Actually, no. Interestingly, in the United States,
(14:20):
my research showed that women of allclasses began to be attracted to boxing as
a form of exercise. And infact, there were special types of gloves
that were developed. They were calledpneumatic gloves, and so basically it was
a boxing glove that had an airsystem that would pump it up so you
wouldn't get particularly hurt when one washit with it, and these were sold
(14:46):
to more upper class women who wouldsort of in the movement, if you
will, in the late eighteen hundredswas towards this concept of the new woman,
sort of eschewing the Victorian concept ofwomen as delicate flowers and bringing in
this concept of the new woman whowas able not only to be self sustaining,
(15:09):
but able to be strong physically.And there were certain sports that were
very much encouraged and allowed, suchas swimming and golf and tennis. Boxing
was very much at the outer edgeof that, but for about a good
ten to fifteen year period of time, I would say, through the eighteen
nineties all the way into the earlynineteen hundreds, this was an acceptable form
(15:33):
of exercise for more upper class women. In terms of contesting the sport.
At that period of time, hewould certainly not have expected an up women
from the upper classes to actually bea fighter. But they were, however,
(15:54):
being engaged as spectators at boxing events, and they would, especially as
we get into the period of WorldWar One, they would raise funds by
supporting boxing matches as a way ofsupporting, you know, soldiers, and
(16:15):
right directly after the war as away of supporting veterans. One interesting little
tidbit is that during the war,and I actually came across this advertisement for
in a British paper in Liverpool,there was a fight that was being publicized
between two women. And what wasreally wonderful about this ad was that it
(16:37):
said, well, you know,our boys are over our overseas, so
let's support these women as an actof patriotism, who have stepped into stepping
into the ring while our boys areoff fighting. So it was a very
very interesting little little bit, butit also spoke to the how something that
(17:00):
had always been very much associated withas a masculine sport was being allowed to
have a little bit of a carvappduring a period where men were not able
to contest the sport because they wereoff fighting in a war. I understand
it being a good exercise, sparring, and for the reasons you said,
(17:22):
some of the women way back thentook it up as a form of exercise.
I mean, how do you feelas a boxer when you're not that
person out or you physically hurt them? How does that make you feel?
Well, that's an interesting question.I think, you know, it's a
little bit different from women. Ibelieve in men um and I think for
(17:44):
women it's it's almost like a contestwith themselves. Um. You know,
for women to to really break freephysically, especially in a sport as a
seemingly brugle as boxing, um,it's quite a psychological effort. So I
think in part it has to dowith contesting against oneself. You know,
(18:08):
how how able is one to toreally learn the skills necessary to be able
to play this game in the middleof a ring? And it is,
after all, it's a it's asport it's a game, and one is
trying to not only have one's wayphysically, but there's also the mental aspects
of it to try to break downthe other person so that you can one
(18:33):
can become the winner of that contest. And I think it's a very thrilling
feeling to win. I know whenI spar and I get someone square on
their nose, I feel very excited. It's like, oh, Wow,
I actually got through their defenses.That's like a bullseye to you, then,
isn't it. Yes exactly, It'slike wow, yes, exactly.
(18:57):
It's a little bit like that.Um. And you know people women are
competitive just as men as are competitive, so there's a competitive aspect to it.
I don't think anyone ultimately really wantsto hurt someone to and it's it's
not a sense of anger either,and I think that needs to be clearly
understood. And especially when you seewomen fighting, there's always this really genuine
(19:21):
embrace at the end because they knowthey've both both fighters have given their all
into that context, and whoever wonor lost, there may be some feelings
about it, but ultimately there's tremendousrespect for the other, the other opponent
who has come in and put themselveson the line and given their heart the
(19:42):
soul to that opportunity. So Ithink for women it has to do with
asserting one's own sense of power andone's own ability to really demonstrate one's own
strength, and it stops so much. And certainly it is about winning.
(20:07):
People love to win. Who doesn'twant to win, But it's also often
it's an exercise of fighting with oneselfagainst oneself in terms of what skills one
is able to bring into the wing, how one is able to read what
the other fighter is going to do, how one is going to be able
to figure out what that other opponent'sdefenses are and offensive capabilities are to win.
(20:34):
And that's a very thrilling and veryexciting process. And it's also,
frankly no fun to get hit.So staying out of the way and being
able to defend oneself in a waythat keeps oneself safe is also a very
thrilling part of that content. Andimagine that's part of the dance, of
(20:56):
course, And you mentioned the Jangcouch was of course, you know,
history maker in the sport, andthere are others, of course, like
Clarissa Shild's I can think of,and you mentioned Muhammad Ali. Of course,
his daughter Lalas also made her namein the sport. And the only
actually connection I when I think aboutit to boxing that I have is that
(21:17):
I held his hand once I methim in Sydney for prior to the Sydney
Olympics at a press event and hewas suffering from Parkinson's. Then his wife
was with him and as he walkedpast me held my hand for a few
moments, which was which I supposewas historic because not everybody gets to hold
(21:40):
Muhammad Ali's hand. That is true. And you know, but you raised
something very interesting and important, whichis that he didn't have Parkinson's. It
was as a result of boxing.And you know, one of the issues
that men and women contend with inthe sport is safety and the long term
effects of getting hit in the head. We see it in other sports such
(22:04):
as football. Now there's where youhave all of these mini concussions happening all
the time and then causing very seriouslong term neurological effects. We are having
these issues with boxing, and aswomen fight in the sport, we're starting
to see women who are exhibiting neurologicalissues after years of contesting the sport as
(22:32):
amateurs and as professionals. So partof the calculus of being a fire is
also understanding how much punishment one cantake. And for many of these women
who are you know who you boxingas a way out of their situations,
(22:52):
it's a very difficult calculus to makebecause they're not able to really earn much
money in this sport, and sothey do it for the love of the
sport, but it has a veryhigh cost. So how that will play
out over the next twenty or thirtyyears as we see these women retire will
(23:12):
be very interesting. Yes, itis, indeed, and the history is
so rich obviously, clearly your bookhas spelled out the history of women in
the sport and it's a fabulous read. A History of Women's Boxing, which
is available on Amazon. Going intoa reprint, I understand. Yes,
yes, we're going to do asecond edition coming out to coincide with twenty
(23:36):
twenty Olympics, and in because somuch has happened in the sport just in
the last five years, we feltit would be a terrific idea to kind
of update the book to really teaseout what some of these big changes have
been and what they mean to thefuture of the sport. You had mentioned
claressa Shield. She is a twotime goal medalist in the Olympics and is
(24:02):
now contesting at a very high levelas a professional boxer. She is now
the undisputed middleweight champion and will beboxing actually coming up very soon for another
title in another weight class. Thisdoes have historic implications in that she is
(24:22):
the main event on one of thevery big big boxing networks in the United
States, Showtime Boxing. So thecommitment that executive that Showtime and other outlets
for boxing are starting to show womenagain after about a twenty year hiatus is
(24:44):
really very meaningful and is changing thesport, and that there's this recognition that
pay equity is important and that thefans who really enjoy watching these contests are
having the opportunity to to vote withtheir viewership to show that this is a
(25:04):
sport that's worth supporting over time.Yeah. Well, obviously, as I
said, the history is rich andwe couldn't possibly cover in a twenty minute
podcast. But if you are interestedin the sport, I do recommend that
you read Melissa's book. If youhad to summarize the evolution of women and
(25:26):
in the sport of boxing. Melissa, how would you do that? Give
us some final thoughts. Well,I would say probably since the post World
War two era is where we've seenthe greatest evolution of the sport into something
that's recognizable in terms of um women'sabilities to not only learn have the skills
(25:51):
necessary to contest it, but alsobeing in societies that are more accepting of
seeing them in the ring and supportingthem. Probably the biggest shift started in
the nineteen seventies, at least inthe United States, where the women's movement
had a tremendous effect on women inall walks of life, but in particular
(26:11):
in the sports arena. Women wenttook to the courts to win the right
to fight, or at the rightto do many things, but in particular
in terms of professional boxing. Theywon the right to box professionally by using
court system and equal rights opportunity civilrights and equal rights opportunities that were available
(26:36):
to them both at the federal andstate level. That has that opened the
doorway to provide a legal framework forwomen to box, even though in the
United States it wasn't legalized from anamateur perspective until the mid nineteen nineties,
but having that framework in place hasnow allowed women to understand that they have
(26:59):
the right to do this and assuch as they see their their sisters and
in the ring, they are excitedby that opportunity and feel the permission to
give them or they give themselves nowpermission to think about boxing as as an
alternative sports effort and a viable optionfor them to develop their prowess in a
(27:29):
particular sport as an in an expertway. So that's been to me the
biggest shift. It again, itabs and flows because of the where the
culture is in acceptance of how womenum perform sports, what they look like
doing It has had tremendous facts.As you know, across the other sports,
(27:52):
just things like whether or not womenwear skirts or sorts in a ring
has has had its moment of inflameddiscussion such just as in other sports,
but for boxing, for women tobe able to contest themselves in boxing,
(28:14):
I think the long arc really fromthe changes in the perception of who women
are and who they are to societyfrom a cultural perspective and from the concept
of what it means to be agender has really evolved in boxing is a
remarkable Bellweather of what that evolution haslooked like. Yes, very true.
(28:38):
It certainly has a place in women'shistory in sports generally. Well, Melissa,
thank you very much for coming onthe show and sharing this with us.
There's a lot more to it,obviously, as I said, and
you can read that in a Historyof Women's Boxing by Melissa Smith. Melissa,
thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much. Hi.
I'm NIAD ambassador in a USA women'srugby player. I support WITH because
(29:04):
they give a platform for women insports to share their stories, celebrate the
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They're unstappable, and they are capableof any and everything, and the world
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(29:26):
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click on the listen tab to dropdown to Sport in Focus, that's where
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actually purchase a history of women's boxing, and as always, we love you
(29:51):
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(30:12):
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you for listening and helping us toturn up the volume on women's sport.
Whip Sports, the Voice of Women'sWord. Hello and thank you for downloading
this episode of Sport in Focus onWHISP Sports. I'm Chris Stafford, and
(00:27):
our sport in focus on this episodeis boxing. I'm going to be talking
to Melissa Smith, who is theauthor of a History of Women's Boxing,
which is about to release a secondedition of the book to coincide with the
Tokyo twenty twenty Olympic Games. Melissaspeaks and writes frequently on the topic of
women's boxing. She's a practitioner ofthe sport itself, being an avid boxer
(00:51):
now for many years, and shehas a keen understanding of the demands of
the sweet science on the women whocan test the sport, as she puts
it, as well as the challengesthey face. Melissa, welcome and thank
you for joining me. Oh,thank you, Chris. This as wonderful.
Well, this is timely, ofcourse. The World Boxing Championships for
(01:11):
Women are taking place now currently inulan Ud in Boratia in eastern Siberia.
For anybody's wondering where that is justabout as far away as you can get.
The men's World Championships were also inRussia, recently, but this is
an even further east north of Mongolia, which is I wonder, Melissa,
why do they choose such remote areasfor World championships. Well, you know,
(01:37):
in part, it's because AIBO,which is the international umbrella organization for
the elite amateur fighting, looks tobe representative of all countries and areas in
the world farm There have been WorldChampionships in China as well as World Championships
in the United States, so thistime Eastern Iberia actually won the lottery there.
(02:01):
But it's it's an opportunity for UM, the the amateur fighters from different
regions to sort of not only showtheir prowess and and fight UM and UH
an international elite platform, but alsoto really UM acknowledge that, especially for
(02:24):
women's boxing, that this is somethingthat it's a worldwide phenomenon and a worldwide
and there's a worldwide really supporting theseathletes and in if you will, raising
the bar of the types of conteststhat we're going to see. This is
(02:45):
also the lead up to what willbe the twenty twenty Olympics, which will
be the third time that women willcontest in UM boxing and for the first
time they will actually box with fiveweight classes at first two in twenty twelve
and twenty sixteen were with three weightclasses. So these particular fights are very,
(03:09):
very exciting because they will help setthe stage for the Olympic trials that
will come in early twenty twenty.Yes, absolutely, Well, you were
out, of course, the historyof women's boxing, and we want to
look a little bit more into thatin the history because there's just such a
deep history in women's It just goesback much further than a lot of people
would imagine. I'm sure. Butyou mentioned the AABA there, the governing
(03:34):
body of boxing, and we shouldjust to bring everybody up to date.
Explain that the boxing, the governanceof the sport is going through something of
a turmoil now, Melissa. There'sa political infighting and something of a reputation
to preserve here and in order forthe for boxing to stay in the Olympic
(03:54):
movement even next year. Now we'veheard that it is guaranteed to stay in
the Olympic movement for the moment despitethis turmoil. How do you see this
unfolding now for the future of boxing. Well, I mean, I think
certainly the countries that are that haveput a great investment in both their male
(04:16):
and female boxing teams. Need toreally exert pressure on AIBA and on the
Olympic Committee to come up with abetter plan for governance of this organization to
save it. I mean, boxingis a sport that has been contested in
the Olympics since the beginning of theOlympics in Greece. So it's not as
(04:40):
if you can just walk away fromboxing as a sport. It embodies the
meaning of what the Olympics are allabout. So as you say there is
a there have been tremendous issues withAIBA, with all sorts of concerns regarding
their independent regarding their financial integrity andso on. So again, it's probably
(05:05):
best if leader organizations at the countrylevel come together along with the Olympics to
put in a better plan for governmentso that you're able to save thee elite
boxing, if you will, eliteamateur boxing, which not only is important
(05:25):
for the sport itself, but alsohelps to train those fighters who want to
go on into professional careers. Soit's certainly in everyone's interest to take a
stand and help ensure the continuity ofboxing at this elite amateur level internationally.
(05:46):
Absolutely. Well, the whole integrityof the sport is at stake here,
so hopefully it gets resolved amicably intime for the Tokyo Games this time next
year, well next September. Let'stake a look back a little at the
history. First of all, Iwant to look at your history in the
sport. Now, tell us yourstory. How did you come about box?
(06:09):
Because you're from New York, you'reyour New Yorker throw and throw you
told me so, tell us tellus your story how you got involved in
the sport. Well, you know, I grew up at during the era
of Muhammad Ali, and I wasa boxing fan as a small kid and
used to watch boxing on television withmy family. And then when I was
(06:32):
a young girl, my uncle wasgiving my brother boxing lessons and then I
kind of chyped in and said,well, will do you teach me how
to throw? You know, theold one too, And he did,
And for many years I felt soproud of myself that I knew how to
turn a jab and following it followit up with a straight right. Being
an orthodox spider. What didn't occurto me was that I could actually contest
(06:56):
in the sport, and that tookliterally many generations or many decades for me
to understand that I could actually dothat. So in the nineteen nineties I
walked into a boxing gym and havebeen training ever since. I've never been
a real amateur fighter or anything,but I am what I call a very
happy Saturday boxer that takes it prettyseriously. But out of that experience I
(07:21):
got to know female fighters. Ibox at the world famous Gleason's Gym in
Brooklyn. It's the oldest continuous gymin the United States at this point,
having been created started in the nineteenthirties, and by meeting women in the
sport, I really became very,very interested in it from their perspective of
(07:46):
how long they had been in thesport and what that history really looked like.
So I began an academic project whereI looked at women's boxing from the
standpoint of gender normative, gender heavier, if you will, And out of
that I was offered an opportunity toactually write a history of the sport.
(08:07):
Since until my book was published intwenty fourteen, none has existed. And
in looking at that project and lookingat the deep and rich history that had
never been mined, it was reallymy honor to be able to start to
tease out what that history looked like, also from the lens of knowing that
(08:28):
there were women who were boxing today, both his amateurs and his professionals,
that really had no idea of richnessof that history, or of the fact
that there were women who we evenwere contesting in the sport at a fairly
high level a generation before they hadnever even knew that they were fighters,
(08:50):
for instance, who boxed their heartsout in the nineteen seventies, or women
who didn't know the role that afighter like Jane Couch had and in legalizing
boxing in England even though they wereboxing ten years later in the United States.
So I really took it on asa labor of love, if you
will, to be able to givewomen a history of their own, if
(09:13):
you will, within the sport ofboxing, and to show that this sport
has had a deep impact not onlyon individual women who are fighters, but
also on the culture at large interms of breaking down gender barriers and the
place that boxing has had in affectingthose kind of changes in perception, things
(09:39):
that women in the sports still needto contend with. As they crossed the
velvet ropes into the ring. Well, it may surprise a lot of our
listeners the history of women in boxing, and I was very surprised that it
went back in this country to thelate nineteenth century there when two party dancers
(10:00):
of all people at variety dances actuallyfought for the pricely sum of two hundred
dollars and they also want a silverplated butter dish for their efforts. So
why variety dances then? What waswhat kind of women were we looking at
that first decided to step into thering? I mean, because you wouldn't
think variety dancers would be fighters necessarily. Well, you know, in terms
(10:28):
of the late nine nineteenth century andreally starting in the eighteen seventies, you
had men and women who worked,you know, in variety theater. I
mean there were no movies or anythinglike that, and sort of the precursor
toward Bill and some of the thingsthat would occur on the stage were not
just music or dramatic readings, butalso physical culture began to be an important
(10:54):
part of variety theater movement. Andusually that would be thing like people showing
their prowess lifting weights, or swordfighting or mock sword fighting and eventually it
started to be mock boxing drills,and in the United States this started in
(11:15):
sort of the mid eighteen seventies,and there was actually a couple that would
come on stage and they would dosword fighting, and then they would start
to do mock boxing. She wouldthen the wife would then run around the
stage and doing what was then calledpedestrianism, but really what we call today
(11:37):
is jogging. And these were allquite shocking things, but in a theatrical
environment it was something that both menand women could enjoy. So as to
why women were contesting as variety dancers, it was a way of expanding their
act. And when boxing began tobe popular in the late seventies and early
(12:01):
eighteen eighties in various variety of theatervenues, women would say, well,
that's a way to earn a living. So they learned how to the basics
of the sweet science. They alsolearned how to use speedbags or punchbags as
they were called, and would doacts that would have them doing punchbags and
(12:24):
then they would have a fight fortwo or three rounds the stage and often
would then invite anyone up, anyonein the audience to come on stage to
box with them and if they won, they would win some big amount of
money twenty five dollars or in theBritish side, which in England where this
also began to occur, they wouldbe offered twenty five pounds, which was
(12:48):
a pretty large amount of money,and as I said, it became quite
popular in the United States. Bythe eighteen nineties, women were putting on
these variety shows all across the UnitedStates in large venues and small venues,
and out of that began to dowhat we could call smoker fights, which
(13:11):
were not exactly legal but while butin small clubs. They would fight other
women and sometimes men in four roundbouts, sometimes all the way up to
ten or twelve rounds, some withbare knuckles and some wearing very light gloves.
But it was really these women whowere trying to earn a living,
(13:33):
mostly working class women who were applyingthe boards of the stage, and just
added an additional skill, if youwill, to their to their repertoire so
they could be employed. There werewomen who were singers, women who were
dancers, women who would do othertypes of physical culture acts. There was
(13:56):
something with dumbbells that they would doand it was just a way to earn
Well, I was going to cometo the class system here, and you
touched on it there that these wereworking class women there, Malissa, is
this and does it continue to bea sport that appeals to certain classes of
people? Well? Actually, no. Interestingly, in the United States,
(14:20):
my research showed that women of allclasses began to be attracted to boxing as
a form of exercise. And infact, there were special types of gloves
that were developed. They were calledpneumatic gloves, and so basically it was
a boxing glove that had an airsystem that would pump it up so you
wouldn't get particularly hurt when one washit with it, and these were sold
(14:46):
to more upper class women who wouldsort of in the movement, if you
will, in the late eighteen hundredswas towards this concept of the new woman,
sort of eschewing the Victorian concept ofwomen as delicate flowers and bringing in
this concept of the new woman whowas able not only to be self sustaining,
(15:09):
but able to be strong physically.And there were certain sports that were
very much encouraged and allowed, suchas swimming and golf and tennis. Boxing
was very much at the outer edgeof that, but for about a good
ten to fifteen year period of time, I would say, through the eighteen
nineties all the way into the earlynineteen hundreds, this was an acceptable form
(15:33):
of exercise for more upper class women. In terms of contesting the sport.
At that period of time, hewould certainly not have expected an up women
from the upper classes to actually bea fighter. But they were, however,
(15:54):
being engaged as spectators at boxing events, and they would, especially as
we get into the period of WorldWar One, they would raise funds by
supporting boxing matches as a way ofsupporting, you know, soldiers, and
(16:15):
right directly after the war as away of supporting veterans. One interesting little
tidbit is that during the war,and I actually came across this advertisement for
in a British paper in Liverpool,there was a fight that was being publicized
between two women. And what wasreally wonderful about this ad was that it
(16:37):
said, well, you know,our boys are over our overseas, so
let's support these women as an actof patriotism, who have stepped into stepping
into the ring while our boys areoff fighting. So it was a very
very interesting little little bit, butit also spoke to the how something that
(17:00):
had always been very much associated withas a masculine sport was being allowed to
have a little bit of a carvappduring a period where men were not able
to contest the sport because they wereoff fighting in a war. I understand
it being a good exercise, sparring, and for the reasons you said,
(17:22):
some of the women way back thentook it up as a form of exercise.
I mean, how do you feelas a boxer when you're not that
person out or you physically hurt them? How does that make you feel?
Well, that's an interesting question.I think, you know, it's a
little bit different from women. Ibelieve in men um and I think for
(17:44):
women it's it's almost like a contestwith themselves. Um. You know,
for women to to really break freephysically, especially in a sport as a
seemingly brugle as boxing, um,it's quite a psychological effort. So I
think in part it has to dowith contesting against oneself. You know,
(18:08):
how how able is one to toreally learn the skills necessary to be able
to play this game in the middleof a ring? And it is,
after all, it's a it's asport it's a game, and one is
trying to not only have one's wayphysically, but there's also the mental aspects
of it to try to break downthe other person so that you can one
(18:33):
can become the winner of that contest. And I think it's a very thrilling
feeling to win. I know whenI spar and I get someone square on
their nose, I feel very excited. It's like, oh, Wow,
I actually got through their defenses.That's like a bullseye to you, then,
isn't it. Yes exactly, It'slike wow, yes, exactly.
(18:57):
It's a little bit like that.Um. And you know people women are
competitive just as men as are competitive, so there's a competitive aspect to it.
I don't think anyone ultimately really wantsto hurt someone to and it's it's
not a sense of anger either,and I think that needs to be clearly
understood. And especially when you seewomen fighting, there's always this really genuine
(19:21):
embrace at the end because they knowthey've both both fighters have given their all
into that context, and whoever wonor lost, there may be some feelings
about it, but ultimately there's tremendousrespect for the other, the other opponent
who has come in and put themselveson the line and given their heart the
(19:42):
soul to that opportunity. So Ithink for women it has to do with
asserting one's own sense of power andone's own ability to really demonstrate one's own
strength, and it stops so much. And certainly it is about winning.
(20:07):
People love to win. Who doesn'twant to win, But it's also often
it's an exercise of fighting with oneselfagainst oneself in terms of what skills one
is able to bring into the wing, how one is able to read what
the other fighter is going to do, how one is going to be able
to figure out what that other opponent'sdefenses are and offensive capabilities are to win.
(20:34):
And that's a very thrilling and veryexciting process. And it's also,
frankly no fun to get hit.So staying out of the way and being
able to defend oneself in a waythat keeps oneself safe is also a very
thrilling part of that content. Andimagine that's part of the dance, of
(20:56):
course, And you mentioned the Jangcouch was of course, you know,
history maker in the sport, andthere are others, of course, like
Clarissa Shild's I can think of,and you mentioned Muhammad Ali. Of course,
his daughter Lalas also made her namein the sport. And the only
actually connection I when I think aboutit to boxing that I have is that
(21:17):
I held his hand once I methim in Sydney for prior to the Sydney
Olympics at a press event and hewas suffering from Parkinson's. Then his wife
was with him and as he walkedpast me held my hand for a few
moments, which was which I supposewas historic because not everybody gets to hold
(21:40):
Muhammad Ali's hand. That is true. And you know, but you raised
something very interesting and important, whichis that he didn't have Parkinson's. It
was as a result of boxing.And you know, one of the issues
that men and women contend with inthe sport is safety and the long term
effects of getting hit in the head. We see it in other sports such
(22:04):
as football. Now there's where youhave all of these mini concussions happening all
the time and then causing very seriouslong term neurological effects. We are having
these issues with boxing, and aswomen fight in the sport, we're starting
to see women who are exhibiting neurologicalissues after years of contesting the sport as
(22:32):
amateurs and as professionals. So partof the calculus of being a fire is
also understanding how much punishment one cantake. And for many of these women
who are you know who you boxingas a way out of their situations,
(22:52):
it's a very difficult calculus to makebecause they're not able to really earn much
money in this sport, and sothey do it for the love of the
sport, but it has a veryhigh cost. So how that will play
out over the next twenty or thirtyyears as we see these women retire will
(23:12):
be very interesting. Yes, itis, indeed, and the history is
so rich obviously, clearly your bookhas spelled out the history of women in
the sport and it's a fabulous read. A History of Women's Boxing, which
is available on Amazon. Going intoa reprint, I understand. Yes,
yes, we're going to do asecond edition coming out to coincide with twenty
(23:36):
twenty Olympics, and in because somuch has happened in the sport just in
the last five years, we feltit would be a terrific idea to kind
of update the book to really teaseout what some of these big changes have
been and what they mean to thefuture of the sport. You had mentioned
claressa Shield. She is a twotime goal medalist in the Olympics and is
(24:02):
now contesting at a very high levelas a professional boxer. She is now
the undisputed middleweight champion and will beboxing actually coming up very soon for another
title in another weight class. Thisdoes have historic implications in that she is
(24:22):
the main event on one of thevery big big boxing networks in the United
States, Showtime Boxing. So thecommitment that executive that Showtime and other outlets
for boxing are starting to show womenagain after about a twenty year hiatus is
(24:44):
really very meaningful and is changing thesport, and that there's this recognition that
pay equity is important and that thefans who really enjoy watching these contests are
having the opportunity to to vote withtheir viewership to show that this is a
(25:04):
sport that's worth supporting over time.Yeah. Well, obviously, as I
said, the history is rich andwe couldn't possibly cover in a twenty minute
podcast. But if you are interestedin the sport, I do recommend that
you read Melissa's book. If youhad to summarize the evolution of women and
(25:26):
in the sport of boxing. Melissa, how would you do that? Give
us some final thoughts. Well,I would say probably since the post World
War two era is where we've seenthe greatest evolution of the sport into something
that's recognizable in terms of um women'sabilities to not only learn have the skills
(25:51):
necessary to contest it, but alsobeing in societies that are more accepting of
seeing them in the ring and supportingthem. Probably the biggest shift started in
the nineteen seventies, at least inthe United States, where the women's movement
had a tremendous effect on women inall walks of life, but in particular
(26:11):
in the sports arena. Women wenttook to the courts to win the right
to fight, or at the rightto do many things, but in particular
in terms of professional boxing. Theywon the right to box professionally by using
court system and equal rights opportunity civilrights and equal rights opportunities that were available
(26:36):
to them both at the federal andstate level. That has that opened the
doorway to provide a legal framework forwomen to box, even though in the
United States it wasn't legalized from anamateur perspective until the mid nineteen nineties,
but having that framework in place hasnow allowed women to understand that they have
(26:59):
the right to do this and assuch as they see their their sisters and
in the ring, they are excitedby that opportunity and feel the permission to
give them or they give themselves nowpermission to think about boxing as as an
alternative sports effort and a viable optionfor them to develop their prowess in a
(27:29):
particular sport as an in an expertway. So that's been to me the
biggest shift. It again, itabs and flows because of the where the
culture is in acceptance of how womenum perform sports, what they look like
doing It has had tremendous facts.As you know, across the other sports,
(27:52):
just things like whether or not womenwear skirts or sorts in a ring
has has had its moment of inflameddiscussion such just as in other sports,
but for boxing, for women tobe able to contest themselves in boxing,
(28:14):
I think the long arc really fromthe changes in the perception of who women
are and who they are to societyfrom a cultural perspective and from the concept
of what it means to be agender has really evolved in boxing is a
remarkable Bellweather of what that evolution haslooked like. Yes, very true.
(28:38):
It certainly has a place in women'shistory in sports generally. Well, Melissa,
thank you very much for coming onthe show and sharing this with us.
There's a lot more to it,obviously, as I said, and
you can read that in a Historyof Women's Boxing by Melissa Smith. Melissa,
thank you so much for your time. Thank you very much. Hi.
I'm NIAD ambassador in a USA women'srugby player. I support WITH because
(29:04):
they give a platform for women insports to share their stories, celebrate the
accomplishments of other women, and toempower the worlds of sport. I think
it's important to turn up the volumeon women's sports because women are amazing.
They're unstappable, and they are capableof any and everything, and the world
needs to know that. My name'sNia Tapper. You can follow me on
(29:26):
Facebook, Instagram and Twitter at NiaTapper in ayatappe Er. Thanks for listening
and supporting with and if you hopover to our website atwsports dot com and
click on the listen tab to dropdown to Sport in Focus, that's where
you'll find the show notes. Accompanyingthis episode with links to where you can
actually purchase a history of women's boxing, and as always, we love you
(29:51):
to join in the conversation by followingus and sharing on social media at with
Sports. You can also drop usa line to info atwsports dot com if
you have any suggestions for guests ortopics around the world of women's sports,
We would love to hear from you. And you can catch up with the
weekly news from around the world ofwomen's sports by joining me and Nancy Gillen
(30:12):
on the weekly Whist Sports Desk that'slive on your pod Bean app every Wednesday
morning at ten am Eastern and againthat is on the pod bean app where
you can actually call into the showtoo. Until the next time. Thank
you for listening and helping us toturn up the volume on women's sport.
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