August 13, 2025 • 48 mins
There’s a murderer on board, So Spock might pull the chord! You’ll hear Sarek say “My Wife! Attend!” while a Tellarite meets his end! A killer runs amok while Spock’s parents finger fuuh, oh -- uh, how about... D.C. Fontana brings more world-building to this intergalactic fable as we’re settling in for a Journey to Babel! It got dicey there for a minute, maman!
Episode Reviewed:
Star Trek 2x15 - "Journey to Babel"
Hosts:
David C. Roberson
Effie Ophelders
Note: This episode of Star Trek Universe continues young Effie's first watch of Star Trek in production order. Guiding her on this journey: Dave, a stalwart fan of almost four decades who rewatches along with her, provides trivia, insights and the occasional excitement-stoking minor spoiler.
Join Us:
Site: http://startrekucast.com
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Episode Reviewed:
Star Trek 2x15 - "Journey to Babel"
Hosts:
David C. Roberson
Effie Ophelders
Note: This episode of Star Trek Universe continues young Effie's first watch of Star Trek in production order. Guiding her on this journey: Dave, a stalwart fan of almost four decades who rewatches along with her, provides trivia, insights and the occasional excitement-stoking minor spoiler.
Join Us:
Site: http://startrekucast.com
Apple: http://bit.ly/StuCast
Spotify: http://bit.ly/StarTrekUCast
Spreaker: http://bit.ly/StuCastSpreaker
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On this episode of Star Trek Universe, we delve into
an episode considered one of the all time classics, a
masterclass in world building and character study, Journey to Babel,
after these mystery Ethanites gather of multicolored ice cubes to
chill their alien brew. Welcome into Star Trek Universe. I
(00:29):
am your host, David C.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Robertson, and I am A fiel Peler's.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And how this version of the show works is I've
seen it a bunch. Effie has not seen it at all,
and this is her first time watching it and talking
about it.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, and judging from the intro, I'm not supposed to
hate it, so you're not, do you though, No, I've
done not at all.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It's okay. If you did, I'm not gonna know.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
No, No, I I know, I know, but no, it's
it's absolutely delightful. This This was a great way to
start my day. I I adore it. Yeah, it's it's
it's lovely cool. Just the setup is amazing to have, Like, oh, well,
there's just a bunch of aliens and there's tension from
(01:13):
the get go, and like it's very economical in that
that sense where it's like immediately, oh, everyone hates each other.
And also look at the vocals they're his parents and
and and you're off to the races like that's just
just gold all around.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
How did you feel about that that revealed that Ambassador
Seric and Lady Amanda are my parents?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I well, I didn't know, so to me, it worked
like it was fun and and then it immediately clicks
of course, like oh weight, she doesn't have years. It's
it all makes sense, But you don't like, you're not
you don't notice that immediately if you don't know. So
it to me it was great and it didn't last
too long, and it just yeah, delightful, Like you immediately
(02:02):
notice that the guy is not that fond of Spock
and there's something there, and I'm just like, oh, well,
he's presumably outcasts, because you know, society probably looks down
on the whole star Fleet decision generally, and and then
it's like they upped the tension by going, oh no,
that's that's his daddy. Who delightful, just just delightful.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah. Yeah. Journey to Babel is really really cool in
my opinion, because more than ever before in Star Trek
up to this point, you have this solidification of what
the Federation is. We're actually getting to see it in practice.
Here are a bunch of you know, disparate, diverse allies
(02:47):
who are just so just so allies.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yea, all like we're ambassadors. But do we get along? No,
we just want shit Like.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
All of them have different cultural behave behaviors, they have
different beliefs. It's not a perfect system. They're all ill
tempered and self important and suspicious of each other. They
have their own motivations, their own opinions on the admission
of Cordon to the Federation.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
However, I logical, the opinions may.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Be oh yeah, which, by the way, they have ship
tons of di lithium. The Cordon have shit tons of dilithium.
It's what powerships. And they are very much in need
of protection from poachers and raiders who also might be
you know, in cahoots with the Tellwrights like you accuse
(03:39):
me and vulcan you know, oh man, yeah. So, and
then there's the killer on board trying to sew dissension
and spy for a mystery party, and all of that
is happening while we get this like intense family's story,
(04:00):
like all of that would be more than enough to
justify a two parter. It would have been fine, and
they managed to fit it into one episode but also
make it happen in the background because it's totally the
b plot.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
To Yeah, like you have both the who Done it
and the medical drama and yeah, right, it's it's like
impressive and they managed to do it. And just just
from the fact that they had this many aliens, this
many new makeup looks like that on its own would
have made me go, huh, they're they're using the budget
(04:38):
like they're they're they're stretching it and making good use
and and then you add the whole Spot drama on top.
Fuck yes, fuck yes.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well, like the Spot drama in of itself, like Spot
and Sarah and Amanda that entire uh you know, family
crisis drama, like you have the the estrange soun and
then the father doesn't agree with his life choices and
all of this is like a whole Last Lifetime movie
and they they learned to come together because of the
(05:09):
father's failing health and like I will be the donator and.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, but that that's the cliched version. But at the
same time, like they come together through shared denunciation of
their mother systeria, Like, like, come on, it is it
is very much. Oh god, mom, you're so emotional. I
know why did you marry her?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's just I would be hysterical too
if I had to do with these nodules.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, my goodness, Like yeah, you, Like a couple hours ago,
I had to slap my son because he was refusing
to give a blood transmission to his dad.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Oh but he was refusing because he had a duty
to perform. And that's one of the things I really
like about it is because it's like a very like this.
It's his fathers and sons and sons and mothers, and
it's dooty versus duty versus personal obligation. The needs of
the mini outweigh the needs of the few. Because it
wasn't like Spock was just like I'm not helping that
old fuck. He was like no, exactly. He was like, no, dude,
(06:11):
I'll help him. I've got the same blood and we
could just filter out the human shit and apparently yeah,
and then Kirk gets shived and suddenly it's oh, there
are more pressing matters. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But at the same time, like the argument that they're like,
Scotty could have done about as well as a job
as as Spock could have in commandeer in that battle,
we needed Kirk. That's that's that's kind of where we
always end up with the whole shoot ships in space
part of it.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Like, I do think that like this, I do think
that we needed Spock to be a little more stubborn
to match the stubbornness of Sarah. For the story.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh absolutely, yeah, for the story, sure of course.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And I think Spock and I think it's perfect. It's
perfect because he absolutely Scotty could have done that shit.
But you know, you have this situation where Amanda is
just like beside herself and being like, you know, you
have to do this, and Spock is like, what would
my father think? Can you imagine what my father would
(07:18):
say if if I were to agree, if I were
to give up command of this vessel, jeopardize hundreds of lives,
risk interplanetary war, all for the life of one person,
like despite the Estranger, And.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
He's very much yeah, it does only ring true, not
because of the logic or their regulations. It rings true
because he is worried about what his dad might say. Yeah,
because he'll never look at me the same if I
actually leave my post.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I'm like, I cannot save his ass knowing that he's
gonna wake up and be even more disappointed in me.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, exactly, which is fair. And that's hard dude, Like
that's like oh yeah, oh yeah. And there's like, by
the way, I love the metaphoricle shit here, Like Sarah's
heart is the problem and it's so much harder to
fix because of how complex the vulcan heart is. Come on,
come on, yeah, oh that's good.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, but yeah, they've just got some some super issues,
you know. And it hit in the sixties. They got
a lot of fan mail about this, and uh, in
the sixties, he had these World War two parents who
are struggling to understand all these new options that their
kids now have, and they're like, don't approve of all
these things, like you grow up in piece you piece
(08:30):
of shit?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
You know, yeah, what do you mean You're getting a
liberal arts degree? What the fuck is that?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Can you can you fix a car with that?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And it's all it's it's what what? Uh? That generation
gap shit is what? Yeah, Spock and Seric are going
through absolutely, I mean, he didn't go to the Vulcan
Science Academy and he went to star Fleet and how
dare you?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is a very simple rift.
And yet just the fact that they haven't talked for
like years is Wolf that that says everything where it's like, well,
nothing's changed, so why should I come visit my mother?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Wolf?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
It immediately sets sets that tone so well, and and
like you get like, oh, there will be some form
of reconciliation later on, but how they get there is
still just it's it's it's it's it's impressive, and.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It makes sense the Spot wouldn't visit his parents aside
from the estrangement.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Of course, we have a lot of time and it's
well out of the out of the way.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I was gonna say it made sense that he didn't
go during a time it was like, well, spoke, sure, Spock,
what brings you to Vulcan my dick, Well, Mom.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
I I'd love to come by, but I I really
need to take care of this direction and I can
a only do it here so I can see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It's either I have a copious amounts of sex or
murder someone.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I mean, they are the same thing. Apparently, that's how
how repressing masculinity, you know, manifests.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
No, I was gonna say they are the same thing.
That's how I've come to understand it from cancel culture.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Oh no, no, that's how I've come to understand it,
just from living life and all these people asking me
to choke them out.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, and then all of a
sudden they're angry that you did it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
And well I wouldn't go that far. But sex and
violence are are on are intertwined weirdly within society. But
let's let's assume that wasn't quite as openly discussed in
the sixties.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, well maybe it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Maybe maybe.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Don't don't read any of the old fanzines that were
going around from Star Trek good point back then. Oh
my god, the slash fiction.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I'm sure Kirk and Spock had a perfectly logical sex life.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh man. Oh so anyway, and you know we get here,
I don't know, I never know.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, it's fine, Just so it should be noted.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
It should be noted. It should be noted that Amanda
does tell Kirk Sarah doesn't oppose star Fleet, but Vulcans
believe that p should not depend on force, And I
think that's like, that's where it boils down, like, because
a lot of people that I know that I've talked
to over the years have been like, but why was
(11:54):
it stubbornness? Was stubbornness the reason that Sarah was like, no,
you have to be uh, part of the Vulcan Science
Academy instead of Starfleet. What is the real difference? Isn't
he still serving a great purpose? And I think that's
where it boiled. What it boils down to is Amanda
saying Vulcans believe that peace should not depend on force,
(12:15):
and they oppose the fact that Starfleet runs around with
their photon torpedoes and their phasers.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yep, it is. It is right there in the in
the episode, it seemed pretty clear to me because yeah,
it's it's not so much you had to do what
I did, because he's an ambassador, he's doing different shit.
It's it's very clearly like you had these talents and
you chose to use them non pacifistically. Basically, you went
(12:42):
into the military when no other Vulcan apparently does, because
it's not very common to have officers from there. As
far as I remember.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Right, well, they do. There's even a ship that's nothing
but Vulcans at some point. Oh but later on.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Point sure, yea, at this stage, I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Well, there's also like the idea that you know, he's
he's a he's a fucking ambassador, he's a dignitary over here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
That also doesn't help with reputational.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Stuff high standing in the Vulcan castle, you know, like,
don't don't then your.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Kid, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, which I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I know you've seen the two thousand and nine reboot movie.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I vaguely remember that from years ago.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And there is a there's a scene where the Vulcan
Science Academy or whatever is accepting Spock and they say, oh,
we've decided to accept you despite your disability, and he
says yeah. He goes to what disability are you referring
and they're like, oh, you're a human lineage, yeah, or whatever,
(13:50):
you're human mother or something like that, and then he
rejects them and very very sassily, yeah, says live long
and prosper.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Oh my god, geez, it's totally totally.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
How's that Quinto played it too, I howled in the
theater I'm like, Okay, that's a take, but okay, I
feel it.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Too. Yeah, by now we can you know, except that
the human half is there.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So yeah wow.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Which to me, it is very interesting that just just
you know, sixties views on genetics, that a half breed
in quotation marks would present with half Vulcan half human blood,
Like what what the ship? Does that mean? Either you
(14:43):
can mix two species and procreate, or like, what the fuck?
What are we doing? Is this some sort of easel situation?
Like it like a the like Spot couldn't procreate or
what what are we doing? I don't know what human
shit ends up in the blood either. He's a god anyways,
(15:07):
magical physiology ship that even McCoy doesn't understand. Well, we'll
just keep it vague as well, because don't overthink it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Well, okay, so as we've seen in Star Trek previously,
not and then I'm not talking about me, I'm talking
about you two. Of course, Vulcans have much higher blood
pressure mm hm. They their emotions, they run hot, they
you know, they all they nearly destroyed themselves in war
(15:40):
and with their tempers, so like the whole reason behind
their pacifism and their uh subduing of their emotions comes
from the teachings of Surak, and they they repress their
emotions heavily because of how damned to bely violent they are.
(16:03):
And even and like this is a funny thing because
later on there will be a show called Enterprise and
it happens like one hundred years before Kirk and the
fans pitched an absolute bitch for four years that the
vocals on that show were rude. They're supposed to be unemotional,
they're supposed to be all of these things. And I'm like, motherfucker,
(16:26):
did you not watch Star Trek, like at the fuck
all ever? Because like Journey to Babbel, Journey to Babel,
like like Sarah is rude as shit.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Oh absolutely, because he's so devoid of everything, but he
like he he uses that as an excuse to just
get away with everything. Like he's a dick, like you know,
to everyone he doesn't like.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, and it's well, he was fighting an illness. No,
he's just like all of these all of the these vulcans.
And you see it over and over again in the
Star Trek lore, from the original series to the movies
to tnng DS nine Vulcans think they're superior. They don't
like humans that much. They're they're just condescending dicks. Yeah,
(17:18):
that's what they are exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
But because we've idologized Spock so much, it's it's become
this sort of like, no, but he's great, and I'm like, dude, no, no, no, no, no,
they're still dicks, and the fast Spock is a dick
at some point, Spock.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Is definitely a dick sometimes. But the truth is, like
Spock usually.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
When McCoy is also being a dick. So it's fine.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
But you know, Spock was so worried about being uh
perceived as human and as less than that, he was
a much better Vulcan, like much more polite general.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
He was exceptional just because he had to.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
But all these other Vulcans are just like catty, shitty
pieces of ass, Like they're awful. Are they treating everybody
like shit?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So like when I when people start complaining about the
enterprise Vulcans, I'm like, what are y'all talking about?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
It makes sense?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, Like they're all like super repressed and they all
just think they're better than every way because we're pascifist,
like we don't, we don't have emotions, Like then they
say Vulcans don't lie, but all of y'all walk around
lying constantly and saying you don't have emotions, like we
all know that you're like, you know, chopping at the
(18:36):
bit toy, just like rip ahead off or something like.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Because this is the episode where they explicitly mentioned like
it's it's an agotomy, it's a teaching, it's it's like
from a young age, you're trained not to do any
of that shit.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And yet and yet, let's also let's also look at
this quote from Amanda mm Spock's mother. When you were
five years old and came home stiff lipped, anguished because
the other boys tormented you, saying that you weren't really vulcan.
I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part
of you was crying, and I cried too. The Vulcans
(19:14):
are not nice, right, The Vulcan kids were assholes.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Apparently it's not logical to bully someone for being half human.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
But they did. They did.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah. Yeah, And of course he is, as a child,
very aware that he can show that that you know,
hurts him. But of course he's hurt, like fuck off
that will fuck you up.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And to not only have to deal with it from
classmates but your own dad.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, because he's there constantly basically telling you, well, they're right,
so suck it up. Yeah, it's uh yeah. So in
a sense, it makes perfect sense that the first folcon
we meet in Spock is very much the exception to
the rule where it's like, no, he's he's damn contained
(20:04):
and like because he got good at it, because he
had to be, because he couldn't let any of it slip,
because imagine the consequences, like we're we're watching a very
traumatized version of an already pretty fucked up race.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I love it, absolutely, It's great storytelling. Fuck yes, yeah.
Also I want to see a Salah whatever the fuck
that that looks like come on yeah yeah yeah yeah
you will the pet oh yes, fuck yes.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah you will. You will first see it in the
animated series, and then they also have them in the
fourth season of Enterprise.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Ah, okay, only like three more four more before we
get there anyway.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Well yeah, but you'll get you'll you'll get a cartoon
version of one and animated series.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
That's a good start. Yeah, that's the next thing exactly,
so only a season and a half before we see
the animated version, and then we'll wait for another like
what five, six, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Five or enterprise enterprises way on down the line. That's
like the fifth series.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Oh right, right right, there's something in between there I'm forgetting. Anyways,
ten seasons later we'll see well.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Let's see, No, it will be like uh.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
One, a live mass.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Eighteen or nineteen seasons later.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Mother fuck, I'll google the fucking image before then. It'll
be fine, just googled, Yeah, just googled the image. I'll
just I'll just click on the on the underlined sale
up link in in the.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Fucking yes, do that? Do that?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
That's easier memory Alpha to the rescue. That is a
delightful animated version, and god damn it, why is why
is the live action version so small? My fucking yeah?
The picture?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Ah?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Why can I not enlarge anyway? Browser issues? Never mind?
The the animated version is adorable. It is somewhere between
a lion and a teddy bear. Yeah, but yes, a
lot of sable tooth tiger in there as well.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah yeah, also, yeah, it just looks like no one
cared enough to make those images, those still images very
clear or big on enterprise, so you know, as far
as the internet.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, oh well later later worries, Well we'll get there.
I'll watch it in HD.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah yeah, anyway, great quotes all around. H McCoy. I
feel like my next in a sling talking about the uniform.
Then he tries to bulk and salute. That hurts worse
in the uniform.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
It's great, it's just great.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I liked it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
How much do you love memal Kirk doesn't even attempt it.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
So, yeah, I know, Sarah, racist piece of shit. Tell rights,
do not tell rights, do not argue for reasons.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
They simply argue, Well damn, that was just there to
punch like that.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That was a verbal I will punch you in the gut,
yeah but I can't. But yeah, that's that's that's prime
example of don't be a dick. You're a dick. How
is this not emotional? You're a dick?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
But you know, maybe maybe not, maybe it's not totally racist. Like, well,
what they've done is since that episode, every time we've
seen a teller, right, they're very argumentative. And that's oh sure,
and that's part of their culture. Like that's like part
of the way they got them to join the federation
and help form the Federation is they were just like,
(23:45):
oh no, we can't just be nice to them. You
have to be a dick to them because they won't
respect you. Part of their culture is they don't respect
you unless you fight with them.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Of course. Yeah, oh that's good.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So yeah, that was kind.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Of way Sarah is being nice there.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Question Yeah, yeah, how do you vote? How do you vote?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Volcan no patience here?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, apparently there was like there, I was reading something
about how like they kind of turned the character a
little more argumentative because of the mask. He couldn't see
out of those eye holes.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, I noticed it was that they were weirdly empty.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, so he had.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
When you looked him straight in the face, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Standing with his like neck and his like head tilted
back in such a way that like made it seem
like he was more like, I don't know, argumentative and
more pushy than he was supposed to be an initially,
I don't know, kind of played with that.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Sometimes you you stumble onto something and becomes canon and
we enjoy the benefits of it for years to come.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
So sure, I really liked h Sarah defending Spot and
telling Amanda you embarrassed him, not even a mother to
do that. Yeah, She's like, you're showing almost human pride
in your son. He's like, he does not require pride
to ask the Spock be given the respect which is
his due, not as my son but a spot. Like
(25:16):
they're just just just chill you know what you're doing.
Oh my god, yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
It is very clear, like all you you you want
him to be respected as an officer. Oh yeah, yeah,
it's really logical.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
And they were doing that. They were really hitting home
when the Vulcans don't approve of violence, just so you
would not believe that Sarah murdered that asshole, tell right.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, which you know not like we figured he would
be the prime suspect, and we also figured he probably
wouldn't have done it.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So they're like, but could he have? Oh yeah, he
could have, oh Shita, of course, they're pretty damn strong.
Oh yeah, he knows exactly how to do that ship,
but we don't approve violence exactly. We learned how to
do it, but we don't do it.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
There's a there's a name and a ritual for it.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But it's ancient ancient ritual from back when blood burn.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Ye.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Fine, and at this at the same time, is it
ever explained why the surgically altered whatever the fucks by,
uh did know how to do that?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
No, Well he just snaps his neck accidentally. Very well.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Well, and you know if he's a spy, right, and
he was specifically going because he was specifically going to
undermine Vulcan because Vulcan, like Sarah's vote carried. Sarah's vote
carried a lot of weight behind it. A lot of
people are going to do what Sarah's going to do.
They were going to try to get him lock step
(27:00):
and stir so that he couldn't vote because they knew
that Sarah was going to be like yeah, it's like,
you know, take care of these people who have absolutely
no defense against all of these poachers and miners who
are trying to take their diluthium.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So sure, but but if you need to take out
Sarah to upset the vote, and you know, profit why
the suicide bomber mission as well, because at that point
you just take out all of them. But like, how
would that be blamed on anyone?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
But that's that's contingency in case they get caught in
case things don't get in case things don't go their way.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Sure, that's like just yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Oh well if I get well, I'm gonna kill this dude,
make it look like the Vulcan did it by doing
a very vulcan thing enough, and then if that doesn't work,
I've got a suicide capsule. And either way, that dude
was gonna die because he was like it was already yeah,
he was on the ship and it was already started.
He was like, I've got about ten minutes left. Well miscalculated,
(28:07):
So like whether or not he was caught, that was
that was. He was done.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
So but yeah, that other ship, the Orion ship or
whatever it was was, I think it was on a
timer as well.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
They said, yeah, no, it would have self destructed instead
of surrendered anyway. So that's that's that makes sense. But
it's more like, did they only start aggressing upon the
Enterprise when they heard from the antenna dude who was
sending out like I'm in I'm in a holding cell.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I don't know. I guess are.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
They figuring it out? Are they doing you know, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
It's it's it's one of those plans that just keeps
rolling and we'll see if it makes sense at the end.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Fair enough, Yeah, I mean they I think they left
it enough on the table where it made sense. But
it was like, we can imagine ways that it'll make more.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Since sure, and and like it because it to me instinctively,
it's like, Okay, so there's a specific way and medical
know how of how to break someone's neck that you
can tell, Oh, this is this is expert work, this
is the vulcan ritual. But then would it not also
(29:21):
imply that you need some level of vulcan strength to
break someone's neck like that?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Maybe apparently they did. They never said what that Andrian
because he wasn't and Dorian he was surgically altered. We
don't know what you actually was. He may have been.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Vulcan, but then he would have been a vulcan that
works for the the whatever the Dirugt traders are the
illicit orions, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, could have been, but the orions are also strong.
It could have been an orion.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Okay, Yeah, I wasn't sure how strong the orions were.
Have we seen orions like unaltered before? Uh?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Well, we kind of you saw in the first the
first episode Cage the Cage Vena looked like an orion
slave woman dancing for Oh Pike in company.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Right, right, right, so the ship was full of green guys, presumably.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Well, you will find in the anime series there are
a group of orions who are blue. Oh, and then
that's never addressed until lower decks, where we find out
there actually are blue orions.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Okay, so they're blue or green?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Is it? Is it? It's just random, it's not gendered.
It's just okay, right, no, it's not gender. It is,
thank goodness. For a while as.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Well. For a while, for a while, they fans assumed
that maybe like the men were blue and the females
were green. Of course, but then we didn't see an
orion again when we saw another Orion played by Avon Craig,
who played Batgirl in sixty six pat Man. She plays
an orion in an upcoming Star Trek the original series episode.
(30:58):
But then we don't see Oriyan's again until you know
the green Orion lady that Kirk is boinking in two
thousand and nine's Star Trek.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh. Yeah, and then.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Well actually that's not true. Sorry, there are some green
orions in enterprise and the min or green too. I
forgot about that part, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Like anyways, it could have just been uh, turquoise kind
of dilemma. But no, they're green or blue or whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, but lower decks different different specifically made it to where, yes,
the blue Orions are real things, they're just a different
they're a different group of Orions. And also they they
are like at war with the green Orions of course.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, okay, yeah, Glas, glad to know that now.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, you'll get there. But we don't know that. We
don't know. We it's probably safe to assume that that
Endorian was some sort of Orion, but whether he was
surgically altered to be blue or not, he but he
could not also not.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Be sure sure, but that that wasn't part we just yeah,
just just the fact that they're they're strong, so they
probably could snap a neck good, perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah fine, why not?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
And you know, the Andorians are a warrior race anyway,
so even if it wasn't Oriyon, which he wasn't, they
could have done it too.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Again, who would wait, where did that sudden start?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I said, even if it was an Arian, which it.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Wasn't, oh okay, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
The Andorians are a warrior race and they are strong
as well, so fair enough, fair enough, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Okay, I am I'm satisfied. Where were we?
Speaker 1 (32:43):
I don't know. We were just talking about quotes? Really
oh right? Yes, uh, I think we've pretty much talked
about all of those.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
You will get onto the triviun sure. Let's give me,
give me, give me, give me. What what happens in
this fucking mess of production? We had less days apparently
now fewer Yeah shooting.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah so DC. Fontana's writing of the episode
was inspired by several references to Spock's parents that had
been littered throughout the previous installments. Fontana later admitted Journey
to Babel grew out of previous writing. There were all
these little things that were running around in my brain.
One of the past references, dialogue dialogue said in This
Side of Paradise, which Fontana had previously worked on as
(33:26):
a writer, was especially influential to the story. She explained,
the idea really came out of the line toward the
end of This Side of Paradise where Spocks says, my
mother was a school teacher, my father was an ambassador.
She presented Roddenberry with the idea of featuring Spock's parents
in an episode. She said, I was kicking around stories
(33:48):
and I finally went into Gene. I want to do
something about Spock's mother and father. Let's explore that relationship.
I said to Gene, We've talked about them, let's show them.
He told me do it, and I came up with
Journey to Babel. Another influence on the episode was an
extreme interest from the fan base in exploring Spock's parentage.
We needed to see the family background that Spock was
(34:09):
raised in what's going on with him truly and personally. Furthermore,
she was interested in not only who Spock's parents were,
but also how they had shaped his identity. After she
chose to feature Spock's family in the episode, she began
to formulate some of their backstory. She said, I made
some notes about what was going on with them. I
(34:29):
sat down and created two characters, emphasizing the triangular relationship
the rift between Sarah and Spock, with Amanda positioned in
the middle. It was Fontana who named Spock's mother Amanda.
She chose that name because it means worthy of being loved.
Fontana was interested in making the aforementioned rift multi dimensional,
She remembered one of the points I wanted to make
(34:51):
believable and babel was that both Spock and Sarah were
right as their own convictions applied to themselves, and wrong
as their convictions applied to each other other. This interpersonal friction,
despite being between a full blooded Vulcan and his half
Vulcan son, enabled Fontana to somewhat humanize the story. She said,
it was really about the generation gap, which can be
(35:13):
either a wall or you know, something warm and lovely,
and in this case, it was a wall as far
as between the father and son. She also reckoned that
the family dynamic of having the hybrid Spock biologically between
the extremities of the two others was bound to create
a lot of character problems. Ron Berry approved of taking
the opportunity to center the episode on the conflict between
Sarah and Spock. The multifaceted character dynamics within the family
(35:36):
propelled Fontana to write the story and script. This was
the quote. This was the first mention that Spock and
his father had been estranged. Well, why was with his mother?
What feelings does she have in this particular triangle between
the husband and son. And what kind of a woman
was she to marry a Vulcan, go to Vulcan, live
like a Vulcan, raise a half Fulcan son. What was
(35:57):
that all about? In an early draft, Fontana planned for
a Vulcan city to be shown in the episode's teaser
when Spock meets up with his parents. She explained the
cost of doing a mat or painting of the city
was prohibitive, hence the shot was removed. Fontana was not
concerned while writing this episode about how costly producing the
(36:18):
story's variety of aliens would be, since she was aware
that because the installment is set entirely aboard the Enterprise,
with no extra planetary or ship sets needed, the finances
could be spent wholly on the costumes and makeup and
the original script. Sarah and his company were beamed aboard
the Enterprise, but after going over budget with the expense
of Vulcan and Dorian and tellerwrite makeup, as well as
(36:39):
the outer space footage of the Orion ship, there was
no money left for the transporter effect. The Vulcan's transportation
to the ship by the shuttlecraft was decided upon because
it could be done completely via the use of stock
footage from the Galileo seven. That makes sense and DC
Fontana's opinion. Not much was altered between how she envisioned
the episode and the way in which it turned out.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Quote.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
It was shot pretty much as I wrote it. Only
a couple of things were changed. One scene was added
in which Amanda talks to Kirk about Serah's relationship with
his son. It seemed to me that that would have
been inappropriate and that she would not have blurted out
all of this information to Kirk. I did not have
anything to do with that scene, and I think Gene
rodn Berry rewrote it like you.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Have guessed.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Nimoy regarded this episode's depiction of Spock's relationship with his
parents as a very worthy allegory of the difficulty many
teenagers encounter with their own parents. When Mark Leonard was
cast as Sarah for this episode, he was forty three,
only seven years older than Leonard. Nimoy, He's and two
he can pass. Yeah. Before he was cast as Sah,
(37:42):
Leonard played the first major Romulin character scene on Star Trek,
the Romulin Commander and Balance of Terror.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You remember that, Oh he was familiar?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
When she was offered the part of Amanda. Jane Wyatt
had never heard of Star Trek and thought it was
a comedy, expected to have a week of laughing on
the set, but upon arriving for her first day of
working on the episode, she was very surprised by how
seriously everyone was taking the show Whoops. As a tribute
to her long and distinguished career, she is titled Miss
(38:13):
Jane Wyatt in the episode's closing credits. Fancy DC Fontana
was uninvolved in the casting of Mark Leonard and Sarah
Sorry as Sarah and Jane Wyatt as Amanda, but ultimately
approved of the selections of those two guest stars. Quote,
they were brilliant together. The two of them looked superb.
They were just wonderful, and they carried it off so well,
(38:33):
even the vulcanisms that we had put in. Leonard Nimoy
once recalled that Mark Leonard and Jane Wyatt came to
him for advice on Vulcan culture. He replied that he
had come to believe Vulcans placed great importance on their
hands and hand gestures, and suggested Leonard and Wyatt find
a way to demonstrate that. The actors then created the
finger touching gesture seeing in the episode Girl Girl Girl, Uh,
(38:58):
finka blast finga blast.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Any occasion, just whenever you can force it in there.
But I like that that came like that grew out
of Nimoy just being like, Ah, this is what I
came up with last time. So yeah, apparently apparently it's
a thing we do, so h cool.
Speaker 5 (39:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Sarah appears on screen for the first and only time
in the original series. He was not seen again until
Star Trek three the Search for Spock seventeen seventeen years later.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Geez, I'm glad they got him back though.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah. This episode introduces the Andorians, and the telewrites later
episodes established that, along with humans and Vulcans, they are
two of the four founding members of the United Federation
of Planets.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Ah okay.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
The gathering of aliens in this episode is of notable continuity.
DC Fontana stated about the installment, it was the first
show we had done with a number of different aliens
altogether in one place with some goal in mind.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah. Great. Also, what were the the Golden What? What
species were they? What planet were they from? Oh? They
were Golden tiny.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, they they were not nice. They were not No,
I didn't say that they were not named in the
original series, but many many cotos, many codo during the
production of Enterprise named them Ethanites, and uh then we've
we heard the name a few times, but they were
(40:28):
never shown.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Oh sure, okay, but.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
On Memory Alpha there if you look up Ethanites is
a picture of those two guys.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Because they're the only ones.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah, that we know that we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I love it though. That's that's they were fun. So
just covering gold, have them, have them have drink.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah. The episode marks the first mention of Starfleet Intelligence.
Is also the first mention of Spock's pet say a
Lot Yeah, which will, as I said, be in the
animated series episode Yesteryear, and was also shown in uh
(41:12):
Star Trek Enterprise in the fourth season.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I believe we'll get there, you know, in eighteen years yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Uh DC. Fontana has repeatedly named this episode her favorite
out of all the Star Trek episodes.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
She wrote, I can see why.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
While Spock Leonard Nimoy was often deluged with fan mail
on a regular basis, this trend was out done following
the broadcast of a Journey to Babel. Indeed, the fan
mail poured into the studio at an incredible rate, only
this time addressed to Mark Leonard, who for two weeks
topped those coming for Nimoy.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Dang Okay, okay, you would.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
You would think they would want they would have found
a reason to bring Seric back.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah yeah, but maybe he was doing different shit in between.
I haven't checked out his entire career. I mean, and
he became a regular on some other show, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, but that's that's really all I have. Like, I
just I love the uh I love seeing uh more
backstory on SPOCK. I love seeing Nimoy and Sarah uh
Niemoy and Mark Leonard interact and and find that common ground.
And even though there's kind of shitty to Amanda at
(42:25):
the end.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's it's just funny to me, like
it's not a big issue, but it is very much
a oh they came closer together and she's still the outsider. Okay,
that's that's lovely. But she's very smiley about it right after,
so whatever.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, well, yeah, she had her little freak out, how
she l six she is log of logic, you know,
which was kind of uncalled for at the time, you know,
no reason to go all nuts about it. I understand,
you know you've had you've had a day. You know,
you had a bit of it, you know, but uh yeah,
oh lordy, very illogical. By the way, Can I just say, yeah,
(43:07):
I do really enjoy Like McCoy is like, Kirk sits
your ass down, you need And then Kirk is like,
wait a minute, he won't he won't stop being captain
to save his dad Jesus Christ. Okay, okay, I'm getting up.
I am gonna pretend that I am so okay, and
(43:29):
so does Spock. And I love it. Like he's like
pranks around the bridge, like must have check off the
other thing or whoever was.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah, he's very overtly like the charming Kirk, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
And then like smile and like the spot the way spot.
It's like going to the elevator or going to the
turbolift and then stops, looks back like Kirk's like, go
on going, I'm fine, I'm.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Having a great time, and then basically crashes into the chair,
just collapses. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Oh man, oh man. And then and then it's like
a screw it, I've got to do this now. Shit.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, now I can't leave motherfuck.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
People wonder like, oh, why do people revere Kirk so much?
That kind of shit?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah? Yeah, probably like just the acting alone, well done Kirk.
Yeah it was ser at some points, but you know.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, sometimes he does outdo himself for sure.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Hmmm, yeah, it is. It is fun because you can
totally tell he's acting acting, which is always just just
a nice layer to be like, yeah, you're you're faking
some shit, but in a way that is entirely believable
for your character to be faking it, Like, oh, it's fun,
that's fun.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
How'd you feel about the the bit at the end
where like McCoy forces Kirk to lay down, forces everyone
to lay down. He's like, what do you know? I
finally got the last word.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
It's not a great ending line, but it is. It
is very much. It is fun. That's Buck and Kirk
are like, yeah, I think he I think he's enjoying this.
He just he just wants to it's a bosses around
for once. Like that made sense, but I would have
left it there, and I don't know, the shushing was
(45:21):
a bit much, but whatever, the situation makes sense, Like
it makes sense for McCoy to be like, huh, you're
under my care now, no one's leaving.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah. One of the things I liked about it though
it is a cheesy line and it's a little goofy.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
But not the first time, so it's fine.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
What's fun is that like McCoy is looking at Amanda.
It looks like so it's like this, you know, put
a perpetually put upon human being who has to deal
with his ego centric captain and this asshole, egocentric vulcan. Yeah,
(46:06):
and now he's also like he's finally like looking at Amanda,
who's like, you deal with this asshole vulcan over here.
Finally I'm getting the last word. Yeah, like I rule
this roost.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Shut up. It is. It is very much a I'm
in command in this room, motherfucker. And it's it makes
sense for him to be like, shut up like that
that part rings true. It's just he should have had
a better singer at the ready. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah, maybe I don't know what it would have.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Been either, But I'm not live rewriting a show because
that would be embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Why would why would you do that? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Anyway, we'll think about this after after the recording.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I won't. I'll forget this ever happened.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
That's all so fair. Yeah, last episode you said it
might have been a clean one if we hadn't, you know,
gone off the rails at the end, And I was like,
didn't we say some really messed up shit like twenty
minutes in?
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Probably?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But you know it's in one ear out the other. Well, yeah,
we'll live fulfilled, happy lives without ever remembering what we said.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah maybe maybe.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Or we'll be unhappy. That's that's equally possible. But we'll
still not remember what we said. We won't be unhappy
because we don't remember.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It might be true as well. Next time? Who next time?
What could be an allegory for Vietnam more than the
episode titled A Private Little War? Me and Effie are
gonna hop over to Noral to visit a spell with
Tyree and Nona and Krale and the boys. We might
even get a not so surprised visit from the Mugato.
(47:56):
I hope you join us.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Until then, I have no clue what those sounds were.
Until then, Jill on true, Live Long, and prosper and
of course.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Eat a dick, people eat a dick and plan on
that clip.
Speaker 5 (48:14):
Thank you for listening to the Star Trek Universe Podcast,
a Stranded Panda production.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
If you'd like to hear more from David C.
Speaker 5 (48:20):
Robertson, check out the DC on Screen podcast or Malagustict
TV for his web videos. If you'd like to hear
more from Matthew Carroll, check out the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Or listen to his music.
Speaker 5 (48:35):
Just search for Matthew Carroll anywhere you get music
On this episode of Star Trek Universe, we delve into
an episode considered one of the all time classics, a
masterclass in world building and character study, Journey to Babel,
after these mystery Ethanites gather of multicolored ice cubes to
chill their alien brew. Welcome into Star Trek Universe. I
(00:29):
am your host, David C.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Robertson, and I am A fiel Peler's.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And how this version of the show works is I've
seen it a bunch. Effie has not seen it at all,
and this is her first time watching it and talking
about it.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Yeah, and judging from the intro, I'm not supposed to
hate it, so you're not, do you though, No, I've
done not at all.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
It's okay. If you did, I'm not gonna know.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
No, No, I I know, I know, but no, it's
it's absolutely delightful. This This was a great way to
start my day. I I adore it. Yeah, it's it's
it's lovely cool. Just the setup is amazing to have, Like, oh, well,
there's just a bunch of aliens and there's tension from
(01:13):
the get go, and like it's very economical in that
that sense where it's like immediately, oh, everyone hates each other.
And also look at the vocals they're his parents and
and and you're off to the races like that's just
just gold all around.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
How did you feel about that that revealed that Ambassador
Seric and Lady Amanda are my parents?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I well, I didn't know, so to me, it worked
like it was fun and and then it immediately clicks
of course, like oh weight, she doesn't have years. It's
it all makes sense, But you don't like, you're not
you don't notice that immediately if you don't know. So
it to me it was great and it didn't last
too long, and it just yeah, delightful, Like you immediately
(02:02):
notice that the guy is not that fond of Spock
and there's something there, and I'm just like, oh, well,
he's presumably outcasts, because you know, society probably looks down
on the whole star Fleet decision generally, and and then
it's like they upped the tension by going, oh no,
that's that's his daddy. Who delightful, just just delightful.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Yeah. Yeah. Journey to Babel is really really cool in
my opinion, because more than ever before in Star Trek
up to this point, you have this solidification of what
the Federation is. We're actually getting to see it in practice.
Here are a bunch of you know, disparate, diverse allies
(02:47):
who are just so just so allies.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Yea, all like we're ambassadors. But do we get along? No,
we just want shit Like.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
All of them have different cultural behave behaviors, they have
different beliefs. It's not a perfect system. They're all ill
tempered and self important and suspicious of each other. They
have their own motivations, their own opinions on the admission
of Cordon to the Federation.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
However, I logical, the opinions may.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Be oh yeah, which, by the way, they have ship
tons of di lithium. The Cordon have shit tons of dilithium.
It's what powerships. And they are very much in need
of protection from poachers and raiders who also might be
you know, in cahoots with the Tellwrights like you accuse
(03:39):
me and vulcan you know, oh man, yeah. So, and
then there's the killer on board trying to sew dissension
and spy for a mystery party, and all of that
is happening while we get this like intense family's story,
(04:00):
like all of that would be more than enough to
justify a two parter. It would have been fine, and
they managed to fit it into one episode but also
make it happen in the background because it's totally the
b plot.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
To Yeah, like you have both the who Done it
and the medical drama and yeah, right, it's it's like
impressive and they managed to do it. And just just
from the fact that they had this many aliens, this
many new makeup looks like that on its own would
have made me go, huh, they're they're using the budget
(04:38):
like they're they're they're stretching it and making good use
and and then you add the whole Spot drama on top.
Fuck yes, fuck yes.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Well, like the Spot drama in of itself, like Spot
and Sarah and Amanda that entire uh you know, family
crisis drama, like you have the the estrange soun and
then the father doesn't agree with his life choices and
all of this is like a whole Last Lifetime movie
and they they learned to come together because of the
(05:09):
father's failing health and like I will be the donator and.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, but that that's the cliched version. But at the
same time, like they come together through shared denunciation of
their mother systeria, Like, like, come on, it is it
is very much. Oh god, mom, you're so emotional. I
know why did you marry her?
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's just I would be hysterical too
if I had to do with these nodules.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Yeah, my goodness, Like yeah, you, Like a couple hours ago,
I had to slap my son because he was refusing
to give a blood transmission to his dad.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Oh but he was refusing because he had a duty
to perform. And that's one of the things I really
like about it is because it's like a very like this.
It's his fathers and sons and sons and mothers, and
it's dooty versus duty versus personal obligation. The needs of
the mini outweigh the needs of the few. Because it
wasn't like Spock was just like I'm not helping that
old fuck. He was like no, exactly. He was like, no, dude,
(06:11):
I'll help him. I've got the same blood and we
could just filter out the human shit and apparently yeah,
and then Kirk gets shived and suddenly it's oh, there
are more pressing matters. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
But at the same time, like the argument that they're like,
Scotty could have done about as well as a job
as as Spock could have in commandeer in that battle,
we needed Kirk. That's that's that's kind of where we
always end up with the whole shoot ships in space
part of it.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Like, I do think that like this, I do think
that we needed Spock to be a little more stubborn
to match the stubbornness of Sarah. For the story.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Oh absolutely, yeah, for the story, sure of course.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And I think Spock and I think it's perfect. It's
perfect because he absolutely Scotty could have done that shit.
But you know, you have this situation where Amanda is
just like beside herself and being like, you know, you
have to do this, and Spock is like, what would
my father think? Can you imagine what my father would
(07:18):
say if if I were to agree, if I were
to give up command of this vessel, jeopardize hundreds of lives,
risk interplanetary war, all for the life of one person,
like despite the Estranger, And.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
He's very much yeah, it does only ring true, not
because of the logic or their regulations. It rings true
because he is worried about what his dad might say. Yeah,
because he'll never look at me the same if I
actually leave my post.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I'm like, I cannot save his ass knowing that he's
gonna wake up and be even more disappointed in me.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Yeah, exactly, which is fair. And that's hard dude, Like
that's like oh yeah, oh yeah. And there's like, by
the way, I love the metaphoricle shit here, Like Sarah's
heart is the problem and it's so much harder to
fix because of how complex the vulcan heart is. Come on,
come on, yeah, oh that's good.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, but yeah, they've just got some some super issues,
you know. And it hit in the sixties. They got
a lot of fan mail about this, and uh, in
the sixties, he had these World War two parents who
are struggling to understand all these new options that their
kids now have, and they're like, don't approve of all
these things, like you grow up in piece you piece
(08:30):
of shit?
Speaker 2 (08:31):
You know, yeah, what do you mean You're getting a
liberal arts degree? What the fuck is that?
Speaker 3 (08:36):
Right?
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Can you can you fix a car with that?
Speaker 1 (08:40):
And it's all it's it's what what? Uh? That generation
gap shit is what? Yeah, Spock and Seric are going
through absolutely, I mean, he didn't go to the Vulcan
Science Academy and he went to star Fleet and how
dare you?
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is a very simple rift.
And yet just the fact that they haven't talked for
like years is Wolf that that says everything where it's like, well,
nothing's changed, so why should I come visit my mother?
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Wolf?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
It immediately sets sets that tone so well, and and
like you get like, oh, there will be some form
of reconciliation later on, but how they get there is
still just it's it's it's it's it's impressive, and.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
It makes sense the Spot wouldn't visit his parents aside
from the estrangement.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Of course, we have a lot of time and it's
well out of the out of the way.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
I was gonna say it made sense that he didn't
go during a time it was like, well, spoke, sure, Spock,
what brings you to Vulcan my dick, Well, Mom.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
I I'd love to come by, but I I really
need to take care of this direction and I can
a only do it here so I can see you
next time.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
It's either I have a copious amounts of sex or
murder someone.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
I mean, they are the same thing. Apparently, that's how
how repressing masculinity, you know, manifests.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
No, I was gonna say they are the same thing.
That's how I've come to understand it from cancel culture.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Oh no, no, that's how I've come to understand it,
just from living life and all these people asking me
to choke them out.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Well yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, and then all of a
sudden they're angry that you did it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
And well I wouldn't go that far. But sex and
violence are are on are intertwined weirdly within society. But
let's let's assume that wasn't quite as openly discussed in
the sixties.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, well maybe it wasn't.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Maybe maybe.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
Don't don't read any of the old fanzines that were
going around from Star Trek good point back then. Oh
my god, the slash fiction.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
I'm sure Kirk and Spock had a perfectly logical sex life.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Oh man. Oh so anyway, and you know we get here,
I don't know, I never know.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, it's fine, Just so it should be noted.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
It should be noted. It should be noted that Amanda
does tell Kirk Sarah doesn't oppose star Fleet, but Vulcans
believe that p should not depend on force, And I
think that's like, that's where it boils down, like, because
a lot of people that I know that I've talked
to over the years have been like, but why was
(11:54):
it stubbornness? Was stubbornness the reason that Sarah was like, no,
you have to be uh, part of the Vulcan Science
Academy instead of Starfleet. What is the real difference? Isn't
he still serving a great purpose? And I think that's
where it boiled. What it boils down to is Amanda
saying Vulcans believe that peace should not depend on force,
(12:15):
and they oppose the fact that Starfleet runs around with
their photon torpedoes and their phasers.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Yep, it is. It is right there in the in
the episode, it seemed pretty clear to me because yeah,
it's it's not so much you had to do what
I did, because he's an ambassador, he's doing different shit.
It's it's very clearly like you had these talents and
you chose to use them non pacifistically. Basically, you went
(12:42):
into the military when no other Vulcan apparently does, because
it's not very common to have officers from there. As
far as I remember.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Right, well, they do. There's even a ship that's nothing
but Vulcans at some point. Oh but later on.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Point sure, yea, at this stage, I mean.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Well, there's also like the idea that you know, he's
he's a he's a fucking ambassador, he's a dignitary over here. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
That also doesn't help with reputational.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Stuff high standing in the Vulcan castle, you know, like,
don't don't then your.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Kid, Yeah, exactly, Yeah, which I thought it was interesting.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
I know you've seen the two thousand and nine reboot movie.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
Yeah, I vaguely remember that from years ago.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
And there is a there's a scene where the Vulcan
Science Academy or whatever is accepting Spock and they say, oh,
we've decided to accept you despite your disability, and he
says yeah. He goes to what disability are you referring
and they're like, oh, you're a human lineage, yeah, or whatever,
(13:50):
you're human mother or something like that, and then he
rejects them and very very sassily, yeah, says live long
and prosper.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Oh my god, geez, it's totally totally.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
How's that Quinto played it too, I howled in the
theater I'm like, Okay, that's a take, but okay, I
feel it.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
Too. Yeah, by now we can you know, except that
the human half is there.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
So yeah wow.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
Which to me, it is very interesting that just just
you know, sixties views on genetics, that a half breed
in quotation marks would present with half Vulcan half human blood,
Like what what the ship? Does that mean? Either you
(14:43):
can mix two species and procreate, or like, what the fuck?
What are we doing? Is this some sort of easel situation?
Like it like a the like Spot couldn't procreate or
what what are we doing? I don't know what human
shit ends up in the blood either. He's a god anyways,
(15:07):
magical physiology ship that even McCoy doesn't understand. Well, we'll
just keep it vague as well, because don't overthink it.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Well, okay, so as we've seen in Star Trek previously,
not and then I'm not talking about me, I'm talking
about you two. Of course, Vulcans have much higher blood
pressure mm hm. They their emotions, they run hot, they
you know, they all they nearly destroyed themselves in war
(15:40):
and with their tempers, so like the whole reason behind
their pacifism and their uh subduing of their emotions comes
from the teachings of Surak, and they they repress their
emotions heavily because of how damned to bely violent they are.
(16:03):
And even and like this is a funny thing because
later on there will be a show called Enterprise and
it happens like one hundred years before Kirk and the
fans pitched an absolute bitch for four years that the
vocals on that show were rude. They're supposed to be unemotional,
they're supposed to be all of these things. And I'm like, motherfucker,
(16:26):
did you not watch Star Trek, like at the fuck
all ever? Because like Journey to Babbel, Journey to Babel,
like like Sarah is rude as shit.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Oh absolutely, because he's so devoid of everything, but he
like he he uses that as an excuse to just
get away with everything. Like he's a dick, like you know,
to everyone he doesn't like.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Yeah, and it's well, he was fighting an illness. No,
he's just like all of these all of the these vulcans.
And you see it over and over again in the
Star Trek lore, from the original series to the movies
to tnng DS nine Vulcans think they're superior. They don't
like humans that much. They're they're just condescending dicks. Yeah,
(17:18):
that's what they are exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
But because we've idologized Spock so much, it's it's become
this sort of like, no, but he's great, and I'm like, dude, no, no, no, no, no,
they're still dicks, and the fast Spock is a dick
at some point, Spock.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Is definitely a dick sometimes. But the truth is, like
Spock usually.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
When McCoy is also being a dick. So it's fine.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
But you know, Spock was so worried about being uh
perceived as human and as less than that, he was
a much better Vulcan, like much more polite general.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
He was exceptional just because he had to.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
But all these other Vulcans are just like catty, shitty
pieces of ass, Like they're awful. Are they treating everybody
like shit?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:07):
So like when I when people start complaining about the
enterprise Vulcans, I'm like, what are y'all talking about?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
It makes sense?
Speaker 1 (18:16):
Yeah, Like they're all like super repressed and they all
just think they're better than every way because we're pascifist,
like we don't, we don't have emotions, Like then they
say Vulcans don't lie, but all of y'all walk around
lying constantly and saying you don't have emotions, like we
all know that you're like, you know, chopping at the
(18:36):
bit toy, just like rip ahead off or something like.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Because this is the episode where they explicitly mentioned like
it's it's an agotomy, it's a teaching, it's it's like
from a young age, you're trained not to do any
of that shit.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
And yet and yet, let's also let's also look at
this quote from Amanda mm Spock's mother. When you were
five years old and came home stiff lipped, anguished because
the other boys tormented you, saying that you weren't really vulcan.
I watched you, knowing that inside that the human part
of you was crying, and I cried too. The Vulcans
(19:14):
are not nice, right, The Vulcan kids were assholes.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Apparently it's not logical to bully someone for being half human.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
But they did. They did.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
Yeah. Yeah, And of course he is, as a child,
very aware that he can show that that you know,
hurts him. But of course he's hurt, like fuck off
that will fuck you up.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And to not only have to deal with it from
classmates but your own dad.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, because he's there constantly basically telling you, well, they're right,
so suck it up. Yeah, it's uh yeah. So in
a sense, it makes perfect sense that the first folcon
we meet in Spock is very much the exception to
the rule where it's like, no, he's he's damn contained
(20:04):
and like because he got good at it, because he
had to be, because he couldn't let any of it slip,
because imagine the consequences, like we're we're watching a very
traumatized version of an already pretty fucked up race.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
I love it, absolutely, It's great storytelling. Fuck yes, yeah.
Also I want to see a Salah whatever the fuck
that that looks like come on yeah yeah yeah yeah
you will the pet oh yes, fuck yes.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Yeah you will. You will first see it in the
animated series, and then they also have them in the
fourth season of Enterprise.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Ah, okay, only like three more four more before we
get there anyway.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Well yeah, but you'll get you'll you'll get a cartoon
version of one and animated series.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
That's a good start. Yeah, that's the next thing exactly,
so only a season and a half before we see
the animated version, and then we'll wait for another like
what five, six, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Five or enterprise enterprises way on down the line. That's
like the fifth series.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Oh right, right right, there's something in between there I'm forgetting. Anyways,
ten seasons later we'll see well.
Speaker 1 (21:17):
Let's see, No, it will be like uh.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
One, a live mass.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Eighteen or nineteen seasons later.
Speaker 2 (21:29):
Mother fuck, I'll google the fucking image before then. It'll
be fine, just googled, Yeah, just googled the image. I'll
just I'll just click on the on the underlined sale
up link in in the.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Fucking yes, do that? Do that?
Speaker 2 (21:46):
That's easier memory Alpha to the rescue. That is a
delightful animated version, and god damn it, why is why
is the live action version so small? My fucking yeah?
The picture?
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Ah?
Speaker 2 (22:03):
Why can I not enlarge anyway? Browser issues? Never mind?
The the animated version is adorable. It is somewhere between
a lion and a teddy bear. Yeah, but yes, a
lot of sable tooth tiger in there as well.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah yeah, also, yeah, it just looks like no one
cared enough to make those images, those still images very
clear or big on enterprise, so you know, as far
as the internet.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Yeah, oh well later later worries, Well we'll get there.
I'll watch it in HD.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
Yeah yeah, anyway, great quotes all around. H McCoy. I
feel like my next in a sling talking about the uniform.
Then he tries to bulk and salute. That hurts worse
in the uniform.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
It's great, it's just great.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I liked it.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
How much do you love memal Kirk doesn't even attempt it.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
So, yeah, I know, Sarah, racist piece of shit. Tell rights,
do not tell rights, do not argue for reasons.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
They simply argue, Well damn, that was just there to
punch like that.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
That was a verbal I will punch you in the gut,
yeah but I can't. But yeah, that's that's that's prime
example of don't be a dick. You're a dick. How
is this not emotional? You're a dick?
Speaker 1 (23:22):
But you know, maybe maybe not, maybe it's not totally racist. Like, well,
what they've done is since that episode, every time we've
seen a teller, right, they're very argumentative. And that's oh sure,
and that's part of their culture. Like that's like part
of the way they got them to join the federation
and help form the Federation is they were just like,
(23:45):
oh no, we can't just be nice to them. You
have to be a dick to them because they won't
respect you. Part of their culture is they don't respect
you unless you fight with them.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Of course. Yeah, oh that's good.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So yeah, that was kind.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Of way Sarah is being nice there.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Question Yeah, yeah, how do you vote? How do you vote?
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Volcan no patience here?
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Yeah, apparently there was like there, I was reading something
about how like they kind of turned the character a
little more argumentative because of the mask. He couldn't see
out of those eye holes.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Yeah, I noticed it was that they were weirdly empty.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, so he had.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
When you looked him straight in the face, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Standing with his like neck and his like head tilted
back in such a way that like made it seem
like he was more like, I don't know, argumentative and
more pushy than he was supposed to be an initially,
I don't know, kind of played with that.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Sometimes you you stumble onto something and becomes canon and
we enjoy the benefits of it for years to come.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
So sure, I really liked h Sarah defending Spot and
telling Amanda you embarrassed him, not even a mother to
do that. Yeah, She's like, you're showing almost human pride
in your son. He's like, he does not require pride
to ask the Spock be given the respect which is
his due, not as my son but a spot. Like
(25:16):
they're just just just chill you know what you're doing.
Oh my god, yeah it is.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
It is very clear, like all you you you want
him to be respected as an officer. Oh yeah, yeah,
it's really logical.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
And they were doing that. They were really hitting home
when the Vulcans don't approve of violence, just so you
would not believe that Sarah murdered that asshole, tell right.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, which you know not like we figured he would
be the prime suspect, and we also figured he probably
wouldn't have done it.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So they're like, but could he have? Oh yeah, he
could have, oh Shita, of course, they're pretty damn strong.
Oh yeah, he knows exactly how to do that ship,
but we don't approve violence exactly. We learned how to
do it, but we don't do it.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
There's a there's a name and a ritual for it.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
But it's ancient ancient ritual from back when blood burn.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Ye.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Fine, and at this at the same time, is it
ever explained why the surgically altered whatever the fucks by,
uh did know how to do that?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (26:34):
No, Well he just snaps his neck accidentally. Very well.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
Well, and you know if he's a spy, right, and
he was specifically going because he was specifically going to
undermine Vulcan because Vulcan, like Sarah's vote carried. Sarah's vote
carried a lot of weight behind it. A lot of
people are going to do what Sarah's going to do.
They were going to try to get him lock step
(27:00):
and stir so that he couldn't vote because they knew
that Sarah was going to be like yeah, it's like,
you know, take care of these people who have absolutely
no defense against all of these poachers and miners who
are trying to take their diluthium.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So sure, but but if you need to take out
Sarah to upset the vote, and you know, profit why
the suicide bomber mission as well, because at that point
you just take out all of them. But like, how
would that be blamed on anyone?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
But that's that's contingency in case they get caught in
case things don't get in case things don't go their way.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Sure, that's like just yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Oh well if I get well, I'm gonna kill this dude,
make it look like the Vulcan did it by doing
a very vulcan thing enough, and then if that doesn't work,
I've got a suicide capsule. And either way, that dude
was gonna die because he was like it was already yeah,
he was on the ship and it was already started.
He was like, I've got about ten minutes left. Well miscalculated,
(28:07):
So like whether or not he was caught, that was
that was. He was done.
Speaker 2 (28:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
So but yeah, that other ship, the Orion ship or
whatever it was was, I think it was on a
timer as well.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
They said, yeah, no, it would have self destructed instead
of surrendered anyway. So that's that's that makes sense. But
it's more like, did they only start aggressing upon the
Enterprise when they heard from the antenna dude who was
sending out like I'm in I'm in a holding cell.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
M hm.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
I don't know. I guess are.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
They figuring it out? Are they doing you know, I
don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
It's it's it's one of those plans that just keeps
rolling and we'll see if it makes sense at the end.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Fair enough, Yeah, I mean they I think they left
it enough on the table where it made sense. But
it was like, we can imagine ways that it'll make more.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Since sure, and and like it because it to me instinctively,
it's like, Okay, so there's a specific way and medical
know how of how to break someone's neck that you
can tell, Oh, this is this is expert work, this
is the vulcan ritual. But then would it not also
(29:21):
imply that you need some level of vulcan strength to
break someone's neck like that?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Maybe apparently they did. They never said what that Andrian
because he wasn't and Dorian he was surgically altered. We
don't know what you actually was. He may have been.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
Vulcan, but then he would have been a vulcan that
works for the the whatever the Dirugt traders are the
illicit orions, thank you.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, could have been, but the orions are also strong.
It could have been an orion.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Okay, Yeah, I wasn't sure how strong the orions were.
Have we seen orions like unaltered before? Uh?
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Well, we kind of you saw in the first the
first episode Cage the Cage Vena looked like an orion
slave woman dancing for Oh Pike in company.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Right, right, right, so the ship was full of green guys, presumably.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Well, you will find in the anime series there are
a group of orions who are blue. Oh, and then
that's never addressed until lower decks, where we find out
there actually are blue orions.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Okay, so they're blue or green?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Is it? Is it? It's just random, it's not gendered.
It's just okay, right, no, it's not gender. It is,
thank goodness. For a while as.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Well. For a while, for a while, they fans assumed
that maybe like the men were blue and the females
were green. Of course, but then we didn't see an
orion again when we saw another Orion played by Avon Craig,
who played Batgirl in sixty six pat Man. She plays
an orion in an upcoming Star Trek the original series episode.
(30:58):
But then we don't see Oriyan's again until you know
the green Orion lady that Kirk is boinking in two
thousand and nine's Star Trek.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
Oh. Yeah, and then.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Well actually that's not true. Sorry, there are some green
orions in enterprise and the min or green too. I
forgot about that part, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
Like anyways, it could have just been uh, turquoise kind
of dilemma. But no, they're green or blue or whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:28):
Yeah, but lower decks different different specifically made it to where, yes,
the blue Orions are real things, they're just a different
they're a different group of Orions. And also they they
are like at war with the green Orions of course.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Yeah, okay, yeah, Glas, glad to know that now.
Speaker 1 (31:47):
Yeah, you'll get there. But we don't know that. We
don't know. We it's probably safe to assume that that
Endorian was some sort of Orion, but whether he was
surgically altered to be blue or not, he but he
could not also not.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
Be sure sure, but that that wasn't part we just yeah,
just just the fact that they're they're strong, so they
probably could snap a neck good, perfect.
Speaker 1 (32:12):
Yeah fine, why not?
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (32:16):
And you know, the Andorians are a warrior race anyway,
so even if it wasn't Oriyon, which he wasn't, they
could have done it too.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Again, who would wait, where did that sudden start?
Speaker 1 (32:27):
I said, even if it was an Arian, which it.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Wasn't, oh okay, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
The Andorians are a warrior race and they are strong
as well, so fair enough, fair enough, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Okay, I am I'm satisfied. Where were we?
Speaker 1 (32:43):
I don't know. We were just talking about quotes? Really
oh right? Yes, uh, I think we've pretty much talked
about all of those.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
You will get onto the triviun sure. Let's give me,
give me, give me, give me. What what happens in
this fucking mess of production? We had less days apparently
now fewer Yeah shooting.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, yeah, yeah so DC. Fontana's writing of the episode
was inspired by several references to Spock's parents that had
been littered throughout the previous installments. Fontana later admitted Journey
to Babel grew out of previous writing. There were all
these little things that were running around in my brain.
One of the past references, dialogue dialogue said in This
Side of Paradise, which Fontana had previously worked on as
(33:26):
a writer, was especially influential to the story. She explained,
the idea really came out of the line toward the
end of This Side of Paradise where Spocks says, my
mother was a school teacher, my father was an ambassador.
She presented Roddenberry with the idea of featuring Spock's parents
in an episode. She said, I was kicking around stories
(33:48):
and I finally went into Gene. I want to do
something about Spock's mother and father. Let's explore that relationship.
I said to Gene, We've talked about them, let's show them.
He told me do it, and I came up with
Journey to Babel. Another influence on the episode was an
extreme interest from the fan base in exploring Spock's parentage.
We needed to see the family background that Spock was
(34:09):
raised in what's going on with him truly and personally. Furthermore,
she was interested in not only who Spock's parents were,
but also how they had shaped his identity. After she
chose to feature Spock's family in the episode, she began
to formulate some of their backstory. She said, I made
some notes about what was going on with them. I
(34:29):
sat down and created two characters, emphasizing the triangular relationship
the rift between Sarah and Spock, with Amanda positioned in
the middle. It was Fontana who named Spock's mother Amanda.
She chose that name because it means worthy of being loved.
Fontana was interested in making the aforementioned rift multi dimensional,
She remembered one of the points I wanted to make
(34:51):
believable and babel was that both Spock and Sarah were
right as their own convictions applied to themselves, and wrong
as their convictions applied to each other other. This interpersonal friction,
despite being between a full blooded Vulcan and his half
Vulcan son, enabled Fontana to somewhat humanize the story. She said,
it was really about the generation gap, which can be
(35:13):
either a wall or you know, something warm and lovely,
and in this case, it was a wall as far
as between the father and son. She also reckoned that
the family dynamic of having the hybrid Spock biologically between
the extremities of the two others was bound to create
a lot of character problems. Ron Berry approved of taking
the opportunity to center the episode on the conflict between
Sarah and Spock. The multifaceted character dynamics within the family
(35:36):
propelled Fontana to write the story and script. This was
the quote. This was the first mention that Spock and
his father had been estranged. Well, why was with his mother?
What feelings does she have in this particular triangle between
the husband and son. And what kind of a woman
was she to marry a Vulcan, go to Vulcan, live
like a Vulcan, raise a half Fulcan son. What was
(35:57):
that all about? In an early draft, Fontana planned for
a Vulcan city to be shown in the episode's teaser
when Spock meets up with his parents. She explained the
cost of doing a mat or painting of the city
was prohibitive, hence the shot was removed. Fontana was not
concerned while writing this episode about how costly producing the
(36:18):
story's variety of aliens would be, since she was aware
that because the installment is set entirely aboard the Enterprise,
with no extra planetary or ship sets needed, the finances
could be spent wholly on the costumes and makeup and
the original script. Sarah and his company were beamed aboard
the Enterprise, but after going over budget with the expense
of Vulcan and Dorian and tellerwrite makeup, as well as
(36:39):
the outer space footage of the Orion ship, there was
no money left for the transporter effect. The Vulcan's transportation
to the ship by the shuttlecraft was decided upon because
it could be done completely via the use of stock
footage from the Galileo seven. That makes sense and DC
Fontana's opinion. Not much was altered between how she envisioned
the episode and the way in which it turned out.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Quote.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
It was shot pretty much as I wrote it. Only
a couple of things were changed. One scene was added
in which Amanda talks to Kirk about Serah's relationship with
his son. It seemed to me that that would have
been inappropriate and that she would not have blurted out
all of this information to Kirk. I did not have
anything to do with that scene, and I think Gene
rodn Berry rewrote it like you.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Have guessed.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Nimoy regarded this episode's depiction of Spock's relationship with his
parents as a very worthy allegory of the difficulty many
teenagers encounter with their own parents. When Mark Leonard was
cast as Sarah for this episode, he was forty three,
only seven years older than Leonard. Nimoy, He's and two
he can pass. Yeah. Before he was cast as Sah,
(37:42):
Leonard played the first major Romulin character scene on Star Trek,
the Romulin Commander and Balance of Terror.
Speaker 2 (37:48):
You remember that, Oh he was familiar?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
When she was offered the part of Amanda. Jane Wyatt
had never heard of Star Trek and thought it was
a comedy, expected to have a week of laughing on
the set, but upon arriving for her first day of
working on the episode, she was very surprised by how
seriously everyone was taking the show Whoops. As a tribute
to her long and distinguished career, she is titled Miss
(38:13):
Jane Wyatt in the episode's closing credits. Fancy DC Fontana
was uninvolved in the casting of Mark Leonard and Sarah
Sorry as Sarah and Jane Wyatt as Amanda, but ultimately
approved of the selections of those two guest stars. Quote,
they were brilliant together. The two of them looked superb.
They were just wonderful, and they carried it off so well,
(38:33):
even the vulcanisms that we had put in. Leonard Nimoy
once recalled that Mark Leonard and Jane Wyatt came to
him for advice on Vulcan culture. He replied that he
had come to believe Vulcans placed great importance on their
hands and hand gestures, and suggested Leonard and Wyatt find
a way to demonstrate that. The actors then created the
finger touching gesture seeing in the episode Girl Girl Girl, Uh,
(38:58):
finka blast finga blast.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Any occasion, just whenever you can force it in there.
But I like that that came like that grew out
of Nimoy just being like, Ah, this is what I
came up with last time. So yeah, apparently apparently it's
a thing we do, so h cool.
Speaker 5 (39:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Sarah appears on screen for the first and only time
in the original series. He was not seen again until
Star Trek three the Search for Spock seventeen seventeen years later.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
Geez, I'm glad they got him back though.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah. This episode introduces the Andorians, and the telewrites later
episodes established that, along with humans and Vulcans, they are
two of the four founding members of the United Federation
of Planets.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
Ah okay.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
The gathering of aliens in this episode is of notable continuity.
DC Fontana stated about the installment, it was the first
show we had done with a number of different aliens
altogether in one place with some goal in mind.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah. Great. Also, what were the the Golden What? What
species were they? What planet were they from? Oh? They
were Golden tiny.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Yeah, they they were not nice. They were not No,
I didn't say that they were not named in the
original series, but many many cotos, many codo during the
production of Enterprise named them Ethanites, and uh then we've
we heard the name a few times, but they were
(40:28):
never shown.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Oh sure, okay, but.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
On Memory Alpha there if you look up Ethanites is
a picture of those two guys.
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Because they're the only ones.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Yeah, that we know that we're seeing.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
I love it though. That's that's they were fun. So
just covering gold, have them, have them have drink.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Yeah. The episode marks the first mention of Starfleet Intelligence.
Is also the first mention of Spock's pet say a
Lot Yeah, which will, as I said, be in the
animated series episode Yesteryear, and was also shown in uh
(41:12):
Star Trek Enterprise in the fourth season.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
I believe we'll get there, you know, in eighteen years yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
Uh DC. Fontana has repeatedly named this episode her favorite
out of all the Star Trek episodes.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
She wrote, I can see why.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
While Spock Leonard Nimoy was often deluged with fan mail
on a regular basis, this trend was out done following
the broadcast of a Journey to Babel. Indeed, the fan
mail poured into the studio at an incredible rate, only
this time addressed to Mark Leonard, who for two weeks
topped those coming for Nimoy.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Dang Okay, okay, you would.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
You would think they would want they would have found
a reason to bring Seric back.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
Yeah yeah, but maybe he was doing different shit in between.
I haven't checked out his entire career. I mean, and
he became a regular on some other show, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Yeah, but that's that's really all I have. Like, I
just I love the uh I love seeing uh more
backstory on SPOCK. I love seeing Nimoy and Sarah uh
Niemoy and Mark Leonard interact and and find that common ground.
And even though there's kind of shitty to Amanda at
(42:25):
the end.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's it's just funny to me, like
it's not a big issue, but it is very much
a oh they came closer together and she's still the outsider. Okay,
that's that's lovely. But she's very smiley about it right after,
so whatever.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, well, yeah, she had her little freak out, how
she l six she is log of logic, you know,
which was kind of uncalled for at the time, you know,
no reason to go all nuts about it. I understand,
you know you've had you've had a day. You know,
you had a bit of it, you know, but uh yeah,
oh lordy, very illogical. By the way, Can I just say, yeah,
(43:07):
I do really enjoy Like McCoy is like, Kirk sits
your ass down, you need And then Kirk is like,
wait a minute, he won't he won't stop being captain
to save his dad Jesus Christ. Okay, okay, I'm getting up.
I am gonna pretend that I am so okay, and
(43:29):
so does Spock. And I love it. Like he's like
pranks around the bridge, like must have check off the
other thing or whoever was.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Yeah, yeah, he's very overtly like the charming Kirk, right yeah.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
And then like smile and like the spot the way spot.
It's like going to the elevator or going to the
turbolift and then stops, looks back like Kirk's like, go
on going, I'm fine, I'm.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Having a great time, and then basically crashes into the chair,
just collapses. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Oh man, oh man. And then and then it's like
a screw it, I've got to do this now. Shit.
Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, now I can't leave motherfuck.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
People wonder like, oh, why do people revere Kirk so much?
That kind of shit?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Yeah? Yeah, probably like just the acting alone, well done Kirk.
Yeah it was ser at some points, but you know.
Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, sometimes he does outdo himself for sure.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Hmmm, yeah, it is. It is fun because you can
totally tell he's acting acting, which is always just just
a nice layer to be like, yeah, you're you're faking
some shit, but in a way that is entirely believable
for your character to be faking it, Like, oh, it's fun,
that's fun.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
How'd you feel about the the bit at the end
where like McCoy forces Kirk to lay down, forces everyone
to lay down. He's like, what do you know? I
finally got the last word.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
It's not a great ending line, but it is. It
is very much. It is fun. That's Buck and Kirk
are like, yeah, I think he I think he's enjoying this.
He just he just wants to it's a bosses around
for once. Like that made sense, but I would have
left it there, and I don't know, the shushing was
(45:21):
a bit much, but whatever, the situation makes sense, Like
it makes sense for McCoy to be like, huh, you're
under my care now, no one's leaving.
Speaker 1 (45:36):
Yeah. One of the things I liked about it though
it is a cheesy line and it's a little goofy.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
But not the first time, so it's fine.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
What's fun is that like McCoy is looking at Amanda.
It looks like so it's like this, you know, put
a perpetually put upon human being who has to deal
with his ego centric captain and this asshole, egocentric vulcan. Yeah,
(46:06):
and now he's also like he's finally like looking at Amanda,
who's like, you deal with this asshole vulcan over here.
Finally I'm getting the last word. Yeah, like I rule
this roost.
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Shut up. It is. It is very much a I'm
in command in this room, motherfucker. And it's it makes
sense for him to be like, shut up like that
that part rings true. It's just he should have had
a better singer at the ready. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:41):
Yeah, maybe I don't know what it would have.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Been either, But I'm not live rewriting a show because
that would be embarrassing.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Why would why would you do that? I don't know.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Anyway, we'll think about this after after the recording.
Speaker 1 (46:56):
I won't. I'll forget this ever happened.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
That's all so fair. Yeah, last episode you said it
might have been a clean one if we hadn't, you know,
gone off the rails at the end, And I was like,
didn't we say some really messed up shit like twenty
minutes in?
Speaker 1 (47:12):
Probably?
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But you know it's in one ear out the other. Well, yeah,
we'll live fulfilled, happy lives without ever remembering what we said.
Speaker 1 (47:24):
Yeah maybe maybe.
Speaker 2 (47:26):
Or we'll be unhappy. That's that's equally possible. But we'll
still not remember what we said. We won't be unhappy
because we don't remember.
Speaker 1 (47:33):
It might be true as well. Next time? Who next time?
What could be an allegory for Vietnam more than the
episode titled A Private Little War? Me and Effie are
gonna hop over to Noral to visit a spell with
Tyree and Nona and Krale and the boys. We might
even get a not so surprised visit from the Mugato.
(47:56):
I hope you join us.
Speaker 3 (47:58):
Until then, I have no clue what those sounds were.
Until then, Jill on true, Live Long, and prosper and
of course.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
Eat a dick, people eat a dick and plan on
that clip.
Speaker 5 (48:14):
Thank you for listening to the Star Trek Universe Podcast,
a Stranded Panda production.
Speaker 1 (48:18):
If you'd like to hear more from David C.
Speaker 5 (48:20):
Robertson, check out the DC on Screen podcast or Malagustict
TV for his web videos. If you'd like to hear
more from Matthew Carroll, check out the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
Or listen to his music.
Speaker 5 (48:35):
Just search for Matthew Carroll anywhere you get music
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