November 19, 2025 • 44 mins
On this episode of Star Trek Universe, Effie and I find ourselves in another earth-history contaminated culture as a matter of course. With Space Nazis, Space Jews and Patterns of Force.
We’ll get into John Gill and his misguided attempts at introducing Nazism with benign leadership in our review of Star Trek 2x23, "Patterns of Force".
🎙 Episode Reviewed:
Star Trek The Original Series 2×23 – “Patterns of Force”
👥 Hosts:
David C. Roberson
Effie Ophelders
Note: This episode of Star Trek Universe continues young Effie's first watch of Star Trek in production order. Guiding her on this journey: Dave, a stalwart fan of almost four decades who rewatches along with her, provides trivia, insights and the occasional excitement-stoking minor spoiler.
🖖 Listen & Subscribe:
🌐 StarTrekUcast.com
🍎 Apple Podcasts
🎧 Spotify
📡 Spreaker
✍️ David C. Roberson’s Newsletter
We’ll get into John Gill and his misguided attempts at introducing Nazism with benign leadership in our review of Star Trek 2x23, "Patterns of Force".
🎙 Episode Reviewed:
Star Trek The Original Series 2×23 – “Patterns of Force”
👥 Hosts:
David C. Roberson
Effie Ophelders
Note: This episode of Star Trek Universe continues young Effie's first watch of Star Trek in production order. Guiding her on this journey: Dave, a stalwart fan of almost four decades who rewatches along with her, provides trivia, insights and the occasional excitement-stoking minor spoiler.
🖖 Listen & Subscribe:
🌐 StarTrekUcast.com
🍎 Apple Podcasts
🎧 Spotify
📡 Spreaker
✍️ David C. Roberson’s Newsletter
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
On this episode of Star Trek Universe. It is another
classic trek Watch rewatch as FA and I navigate a
weird ass tale of cultural contamination thanks to one piss
poor historian. We'll get into John Gill and his misguided
attempts at introducing Nazism with benign leadership right after these
words from our mystery Drugged Furors behind the Curtain. On
(00:32):
this episode of Star Trek Universe, it is another classic
trek Watch rewatch as Fa and I navigate a weird
ass tale of cultural contamination thanks to one piss poor historian.
We'll get into John Gill and his misguided attempts at
introducing Nazism with benign leadership right after these words from
our mystery Drugged Furors behind the Curtain. Welcome into Star
(00:57):
Trek Universe. As I said at the top, this is
another of our classic trek Watch rewatch episodes. I am
David c. Roberson. I have seen all of the episodes
many times over, and.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I am fool Pelller's meaning. I have seen this episode
and the ones before once, just once, just the ones
I am not doing more than humanly necessary for, you know,
just just the bare minimum. That's that's my style.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, and you know what, I have good news the
memory alpha summary not so not so lacking.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's multiple lines.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
This it is the enterprise searching for a missing Federation.
Historian discovers that the historian has apparently contaminated the cultural
development of the planet where he was assigned as a
cultural observer to have it follow the societal path of
Nazi Germany in the nineteen thirties and forties. That pretty
much sums it up.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much sped up too, because like the
from thirty three to forty they condensed that in a
couple of years. Apparently he was efficient about it. They're
very bad at observing and you know, non interference and
all that. I feel like I feel like they're like
everybody knows the prime directive, let me read up on
(02:12):
the directive two and three and four, and then they
forget by the time they have to do anything. It's
it's impressive, really.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Right, right. The first one is like non interference, and
then like the second rule is when you fuck.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
That up, are you allowed to repair it or does
that also count as interference? Let's not think about.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It to much. What's their secondary or directive. Oh fuck,
ah shit, I feel like I feel like it reads
like a fuck what was a snark's bit in the
flash or whatever it was where it's like, next step,
abandon the plan. You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, yeah, I vaguely recall this. Yeah, let be no
more plan about the plants improvise all right? So, oh
I missed that actor. I don't know what he's doing
now something. Yes, that's the name. I have heard that
name many a time on the DC on Screen reviews.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Per episode, they do a good workover on DC on Screen.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I've heard. I've heard that those guys do a good job,
and I hear the hours.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I hear that that then the host, you know, not
the co host.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
No, no, no, Jason, Jason, the main host.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
No no, I heard the main host, not Jason.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Oh, the non Jason. Yeah. I keep forgetting his name.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, I hear positive things about his dick. I don't know,
you know, I didn't because that is.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
The only thing I've remembered about him. Yes, I cannot,
for the life of me remember his name, But boy,
do I remember his dick.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I can't remember what that precedes him. Oh, I don't
remember if it was like, oh my god, it's amazing,
even though it's small, or if it was like a
who was what a sweat big swinging thing that is?
I don't know which one it was, but.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I think it was just very cute.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah, just just.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Like good head of hair, just you know, still still
for its heavy hair doing well. Hey man, I'm not
into it, but some of the girls are. Maybe.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
It was just like a shock in awe situation. It
wasn't really a good or bad thing. It was like,
my god, it's like a slinky and.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Like like ducks, slinkies are cork screws, right, That's that's
what I'm thinking. It makes sense. Yeah, and and he
can probably go off stairs that way.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, I've heard a bit, but you know that was
that actually reminds me of one of the funniest Kevin
Neeland jokes. I remember hearing he was explaining to and
O'Brien and he was like, yeah, yeah, I met my
wife had a Halloween party and she was dressed as
a slinky. I've never seen anyone do that before. Anyway,
when I first saw her, she was coming down the stairs.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Delightful. Yeah, yeah, it's impressive. I saw Halloween costume this
year of someone being an Ostrich but like with the
hand up.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Oh yeahs a sock puppet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
And like the feathers, so they had to drop forward
as well, just hide their face. And it was funny.
It was good. It was a good, good idea.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, solid. I have seen a lot of those people
doing a lot of that on reels and tiktoks and stuff,
and I'm like, my god, that would hurt my back.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Oh off, of course you couldn't do that all night. No,
you would basically do it only every time someone at
the party asked the fuck is your costume? And then
flip over and be like, it's an it's an Ostrich. Yeah,
here you are, here you go, and then flip back
and be like, let me let me take my drink
back the right side up because gravity doesn't work with
(06:05):
this costume.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You know, ship like that anyway.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
But it's a fun idea and it's you know, that's
what reels are good for, showing off your Halloween costume.
And then the rest of the year we should just
not post anything because you know, sooner or later you
get bored. You don't have Halloween costume in mid March
and you post a bunch of Nazi propaganda on Twitter.
It's it's just how it goes.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Oh, that's not how it goes for me.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I mean I have never partaken, but that doesn't mean
that lots of people aren't doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Right speaking of Nazi propaganda, ha ha, I did a
segue accidentally. I think no, I was.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I was. I was absolutely setting you up for that one.
Always bring the conversation back to Nazis.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
That's pretty good for me.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's the world we live in. I'm trying to have
some escapism. You know, watch a show be off in
the far future. What what perks up on my screen
is just fucking Nazis. Again. At least these ones are
pretty open about it, right.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I have to say, I've never really liked this episode
very much.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, it does just feel like we have a set
and costume reservoir that we can use for this, and
they did. It's it doesn't Yeah, it doesn't have a
lot to say is I think my main issue where
I'm like, you sort of have the speech at the
end where it's like, well they were hideous evil men,
but also the leader principle where you're like, Okay, have
(07:31):
we now examined the fact that you're the leader of
this ship and there's a hierarchy. Still do we think
about this beyond the fact that maybe ethnic cleansing isn't
the greatest idea, right, I don't know. It's not the
most interesting take on World War Two. It is an
(07:52):
interesting examination purely from the standpoint of, oh, it works,
it's efficient. It's the best way to unite a people
is to be a fucking populist asshole. Yeah, and that
rings true to this day, sure, But beyond that, it's
it's just an excuse to have them run around in
(08:12):
Nazi costumes like that was the kind of Yeah, there's
a lot of stills where I'm like, I don't know if,
in hindsight, if you would want these pictures out in
the ether.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
But it was it was interesting, at least from the
perspective of UH entertainment, because it was a relatively lighthearted episode.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah for what it was somehow, Yeah, to.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Have had some the fucking Nazis killing xeons or whatever,
like one one one letter away from Zions.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
No letter away from Abram and Isaac and Isaac is
just really it's it's just pronounced differently, it's still spelled
like Isaac fuck off.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely so, uh, we can talk more. We'll
talk more about it.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Grateful for the subtitles to be like, oh no, they
they specified it. It's is barely different, but it's it's
it's different. It sounds the same, but you know you
spell it with an oh. Well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
This episode, you know, was an episode that launched a
million fanzines. Spock with his shirt off.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Though fair enough and the green the green blood from
the lashes. He doesn't appear to feel, which is a
nice touch. I did. I did appreciate that he's just
standing there like, yeah, just go off, You're not strong
enough to hurt me.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, that was one of those things.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I'm bleeding, but apparently I don't feel a fucking thing.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Well, he I think he does feel it. I feel it.
He's just he cons right.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
That also works, he control works. I kind of have
an emotional outburst, but he also doesn't flinch, you know,
mm hmmm, so I could I could have also taken
it as well. He's a falcon. He's not going to
be harmed by a human that he's That is.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
One of the initial things that I remember as a kid, like,
like a really young kid. One of my first memories
of Star Trek is this episode and me asking my
parents why is Spock not hurt? And they were like, oh,
he's just controlling his emotions. It hurts.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
He's an alien. Fair enough. Okay, you know glad your
parents were there to explain this concept.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, like, oh, Spock hurts, he just doesn't show it.
Oh okay, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
He must feel it. That's that's fair. I just I
would have because of the bleeding, I would have expected
him to be slightly more invulnerable, if that makes sense.
But maybe they're just really strong. But also glass cannons.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well you know, he's just you know, there's whipping them
with freaking cat and I tails. I mean, that's gonna
rip you a party the way I guess.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Apparently. I don't know how strong vulcan skin is. Oh
I don't know this yet, but it's apparently it can
be broken.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, yeah, is as strong as the plot requires it
to be.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Fair Enough, I'll take that. That's how we roll.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
But you know, a lot of fun, little whimsical dialogue,
you know, uh, also poking fun at uh. The Nazis
here as their their newscaster had said that, you know,
their missiles had utterly destroyed the enemy. And we, of
course we saw that the Enterprise blasted their little missile
out of out of the stars. And yep, Kirk says,
(11:30):
you look quite well for a man who's been utterly destroyed,
mister Spot, like North Korea ship yep so, and just
like the little barbs at each other, like.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And the stepping on his bro on his his tortured
back for and and like dragging out it's very much
comedic take despite the seriousness of the of the context.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
And Spot just like having a whole conversation up there, like,
come on, man, you know what was going on. You're
standing on his tatterny.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Just being a dick. You're you're just you're just you're
you're purposely not understanding idioms all of a sudden, come on, come.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
On, man, Spock telling Kirk you should make a very
convincing Nazi.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, that is that. And that look that that Kirk
gives in that moment is great. Just like that's not
a compliment.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, captain, I'm beginning to understand why you earth men
enjoy gambling, no matter how carefully one computes the odds
of success. There is still a certain exhilaration in the
risk very good spot. We may make a human of you,
yet I hope not.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, that exchange is also just there to be to
be funny. They have much. It felt a bit bit
forced to me like that one, but it's it's still
a fun exchange because yeah, the the I hope not
part was just you can say it with him before
ever hearing the line you know what's coming.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
But you know, this is they're making strides here, like
they're starting to uh, you know, it's not fucking Hogan's
heroes or anything, but they're putting some comedy here into
the Nazi Germany aspect of it. This is, you know.
And then I think it's like shortly after this that uh,
fucking the producers springtime for Hitler, all that ship with
(13:21):
mel Brooks happens. So oh right, yeah, we're you know,
starting to creative, starting age their way into talking about
this stuff with we can.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
We can sort of make Holocaust jokes now. But also
the zones are being rounded up yet we don't see
gas chambers. We don't know they're heading up in ovens yet.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right, It's very very odd episode they're towing ah.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, strange tone.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, it feels weird. You know, you've got the primary
zeon character saying, you know, like I don't I don't
believe in violence, but after seeing what I did today,
I could kill.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah that's dark. That's a good line. But that's line
that's sort of what I latched onto because I'm like, yeah,
this is a serious as fox setting, and you have
like the intro, the intrigue and the intricacies of the
plot where it's like, oh, that high positioned officer in
the in the Nazi party might actually be on our
side and might be undercover, Like that's an interesting twist
(14:21):
a toy with and have confirmed at the end, and
it's it's it's almost sort of a shame to end
up at the Yeah, John Gill wasn't all bad, sort
of he was drugged and someone else who was worse
took his place, sort of like it felt kind of
(14:42):
forced because they set it up as he was such
a peaceful, nice guy, but also he he wanted to
like he felt the best way to get this planet
to progress was bringing it into wartime Nazi Germany like structures.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, I don't know, he didn't.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Even he didn't he could have come up with a
new fucking symbol.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Right, That's what I was about to say. It's like,
I don't understand why like it had to be like
other than the fact that people.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Will respond well to this swastika, I can't make it
a different kind of symbol.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
It's because it's so hard to draw. I think people
are drawn.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
To That's that must be it. Yes, then the SS
is just a very simple symbol. Yeah, but you know
which is what SS sense were actually simple symbol?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Oh okay, yeah I thought I thought it was too
like chopped off flash bolts.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That is that? That is the Flashes logo on Earth Acts.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Absolutely yeah yeah yeah, so look now, I uh I
obviously what they have they didn't have money, Like I said,
like I've told you book, it is.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
A it is a cheap way to get around, like
let's have a lot of costuming without having to make
new ones, right because these can just use the non
alien things there.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
These were literally costumes from an actual movie, like an
honest to god movie. So they yeah, they look good.
So and maybe it's just like the historian being like,
you know, jacking off to the historical accuracy of it.
Maybe that's why he was like, let's do this. But
you know, he did say, you know, they had issues.
I wanted to help them, and I thought because he
(16:24):
believed that they were the most officient, like the Nazis
were still the most efficient group that Earth has ever seen.
And then Kirk and Spock were like, yep, absolutely, which
you know, I guess at that times a lot of
people still believed it. The writer talked about how he
believed it, so at that time that was still believed.
(16:44):
It's been completely fucking demolished, this notion at this point
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Like the only reason it brought the country back from
the brink of debt is a they stopped paying that
fucking debt and they went into the industry of war.
They just built a ship ton of weapons for the
express purpose of war. And if you make everyone work
in your fucking weapons factory, yeah there's a lot less unemployment.
It's like, yeah, you can change things pretty drastically if
(17:13):
you're the authoritarian leader of a of a place. But
he could have gone about it any other way. And
it's it's very much, but it's it's it's it misses
the nuance where Okay, so he got like all of
the Nazis shipped together to come to power, to rise
to that point. But we're supposed to believe he did
(17:33):
that without blaming one out group for all of the
ship that's wrong with society because that came later. Come on,
that's that's essential for fascism. That's that's one of the
very aspects of being a Nazi is well, we're gonna
pretend we had nothing to do with all the problems.
There's just a cohort of xeons out there room society
(17:57):
secretly and run our media and and let's replace it
all with our view screens. I did enjoy that word.
It was a few screens they had, like a it's
not quite a television thing that was That was cute,
That was cool. They also sort of predicted the flat screen,
didn't they.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yes, well, Star Trek didn't know.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I think about it, like god.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Star Trek kind of did in general really with the
view screen on the bridge and ship.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
On the bridge. But that feels like a window in
a way that has an overlay. But but yeah, it
can show video in that sense. I just mean like this,
this looked like a flat screen. Like even the the
if they communicate internally on the enterprise, you have the
little boxes behind the screens, so outside of the cockpit,
(18:48):
I guess the there's there's not much much in the
way of that, but it is fun to be like, huh.
That didn't stick out to me at first because I'm
used to flat fucking televisions. But to them that was like, oh,
we interposed one picture into another and it took a
load of work.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That's cool. Yeah, and I take it that was old footage,
by the way, the black and white nineteen thirties footage.
That that was just real some of it, some of it, Yeah,
not the actress being you know, getting her promotion or anything.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That wasn't the only thing that they faced.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
He saw Hitler, for Fox's sake, I mean, come on.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, that wasn't the only thing they faked.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
But also kind of sad that Gil didn't actually grow
the fucking mustache. If you're going for all of the imagery,
you should have had a dumb mustache.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Maybe he tried it because I think maybe I think
the Hitler, I think that Hitler we saw was supposed
to be John Gill.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, in his younger years. Yeah, but also it's happened
in a couple of years. Yeah, so yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Maybe he went through maybe he went through a face.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
He thought, No, this looks stupid. I'm shaving today.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
This is embarrassing. I dyed my hair and getting anything.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's why he was why the coup happened in the
first place. His under officer was like, this looks ridiculous.
I'm drugging you and shaving you in your sleep.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Well, yeah, that's what John Gill winds up saying in
the episode the planet was fragmented, divided, took lesson from
Earth history? Why Nazi Germany? You studied history, you knew
what the Nazis were, most efficient state Earth ever knew.
But he thought he could create this efficient state but
with benign leadership. Except then he was overpowered by something possible. Yeah, assholes.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Also Yeah, but they don't quite get to the point
of because it wasn't him being corrupted by power, like
they try to sort of imply at the end, it
was the guy underneath him, like it was evil men
profiting off of the structure of authoritarianism, implying that as
long as there had been a benevolent dictator. It would
(21:00):
have been fine. There's no problem with authoritarianism. You can
just you know, united people and be very very efficient
about your governing if you're the only one in charge,
and somehow the fragmentation and division wasn't an issue anymore.
But but you still need someone to blame, you still
need an outgroup. So it's it kind of gets past
(21:23):
that bit of the history very easily, and I'm confused
that like nazis bad.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Well I knew that part.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Okay, okay, So I.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I do feel like this is a very heavy handed
but ultimately lazily written episode. Yeah, to the point where
like I'm annoyed that like they are seeing Spock and
they're just like, ah, well all those ears, you're fucking
inferior race. No question about where they came from, No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Just some fucking mutation living underground or some shit like
they don't have I guess they don't really have a
perception or an awareness of outside planets yet because their
their military arsenal is far inferior still, where it's like, yeah,
I have some thermonuclear bombs and we can just phaser
(22:14):
them out of space, so it's not much of a threat.
But it feels like they like, yeah, John Gale was
dropped off, but other than that, they must not have
seen a ship ever until Enterprise shows up.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, it's just this, there's so many questions, so many
things that they didn't explore in the even think through
why though, Why the fuck would that one dude be like,
I don't like your color there, you look sick. Take
off your helmet, Like what why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
He? Exactly you? He could have had normal fucking ears
and a weird ass dick and you would have never known.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Take out that, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
What if he had gills in the sides of his
his his fucking torso, like, take all of take all
of your clothes off because you look greenish.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I inspect that dick looks like a hammer.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
They wouldn't have gotten away with most of these plots
where they dress up if if Spock had been red
as originally intended, that that would have made it quite
a difference. You seem hot. Soldier doesn't doesn't quite work
the same.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
He's like, yes, I ate a chili.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I am very very white, so I turned bright red.
But by the slightest bit of heat in my food.
It's It's just a genetic thing, sir, a superior race.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Lieutenant, have you ever tried a ghost pepper?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
M I accidentally mistook a Madame Jeanette for a bell pepper.
It was my mistake and I'm owning it all right. Uh.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
During the first season, Paul Schneider wrote a story out
line entitled Tomorrow the Universe about the Enterprise encountering an
alien planet, adopting Nazi ideology, and forming its own third rite.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Nder does imply more risk alreadymore and more stakes of
like they will go out into the universe and conquers
all the expansionism that is also a part of you know, well,
we won't stop at the planet next door.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
But Schneider began to develop the story further. However, when
John Meredith Lucas came up with this very similar idea
of patterns of force, it was deemed much better than
Schneider's story, which was scrapped.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
John Meredith Lucas wrote this episode out of his fascination
with the functioning of totalitarian regimes, especially Nazi Germany, and
their ability to stay in power.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Their ability call it violence.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
William Shatner quoted him to Chris Kresky in Star Trek
Memories as saying that quote it was fun to write
a well meaning not a guy who for the right
cause completely fucked everything up. You know. We started with
the question how the hell did Nazism get past the
ships and the street gangs and take root among the
basically decent people. How did sane, reasonable adults come to
(25:13):
buy into this bullshit? The answer seemed to be because
it was efficient, and because of a society beset by
all kinds of problems, it may have seemed like a
feasible necessity, So it becomes feasible and the people take
that leap.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, but also the basically decent people look at other
people like their ships and street gangs. That's kind of
a problem.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Oh well, believe Nazism is an interesting topic. I have passionate,
passionate opinions.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Oh I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Oh boy, Oh well, I mean I can die. Yeah. Yeah,
it's just like it is.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
It is.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It is a shame that they had to sort of
take that lighthearted approach because there's something in there. But
I feel like you couldn't just take the blame off
of John Gill like you would have had to have
him be so cynical as to realize they needed an enemy.
And also the stakes only were because the other planet
is supposedly entirely peaceful, as you know, the more evolved option,
(26:19):
because everything goes through the same sort of Western civilization
development stages in this show. So you know, if they're
if they hadn't been, hadn't evolved past war, they might
defend themselves or some ship. But also we have to
as the Federation have evolved past war, but not quite
(26:40):
because we still have a fucking expansionist colonist military group.
So are we Are we pacifist enough? No? No, the
real pacifists are always the weaklings who sit by the
side and wait to get killed or some shit. Sure's
it is an interesting cosmology in that sense.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah hmm. And early draft of this episode had the
source of cultural contamination arriving aboard a small Ambassador class
vessel called the Magellan. The name was later applied in
TG to the Ambassador class of ships in the mid
twenty fourth century. I say, I liked the idea. I
liked the idea better that there was some sort of
(27:19):
cultural contamination that was not related to a representative of
the Federation just doing it because it just makes him
look stupid.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, fucking you like Nazi Germany, Like this was the
one solution you saw out of polarization. I guess the
planet was fragmented. I guess I had to become a dictator.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
What and like? And then like he never answered, he's.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
The democratic ideals off the federation.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And I hate that he never I hate that he
never answers or gets to answer. They drugged him up
so much and made him like so impossible for the
character to say anything. It's like, because I my next question,
or maybe even my first question if I was Kurt,
was dude, what the fuck happened to the prime directive?
Like why we have a non Did.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
You abandon your post? Like you have one rule?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
You were meant to be an observer?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, Like the worst thing that could have happened was
they were already going to war. Would have blown themselves up,
and I would have been like, guys, can you come
pick me up? Beat me up someone? Because there they
ald Thermo nuclear warheaded themselves, which I'm guessing wasn't actually
(28:30):
a thing yet before because they were ahead of schedule
according to their h you know, previous development. So like
technologically they had advanced because of John Gill being like,
and this is how you build a thermo nuclear warhead
ships that will come get me? Like who thought that
was a good idea?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And I want to see, like I really do, Like
give me a whole series set on this planet with
John Gill, Like show me why John Gill decides to
stop observing and start taking action.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Could be interesting. It could be an entire story.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It could be like it's very very interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Really, Like I I'd imagine you'd have to be become real,
real cynical, Like you'd have to really reach that point
of there is no way out this. This planet is
going to ship, you know, And I've tried everything and
now I'm trying this.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, explained it's.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Been interesting if it hadn't been just a couple of years,
I guess. And yeah, I don't know. It feels a
bit rushed into that sort of backstory in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I mean they could absolutely because of World War Three
and the eugenics wars and all this ship they could
absolutely have like fucked up records or something that misrepresent
what Nazi Germany was or how efficient it was. Yeah,
I can I can.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Make shittier history than we do. That's absolutely fair.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah. I mean they've actually said that in certain Star
Trek episodes. They're like, oh, records from this time because
of the war.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah yeah, the World War kind of kind of burns
a lot of books. Whatever. Yeah, that's what they did
in the Second World War two.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
No, so, I mean, you know, uh, Inigg's name is
an inside joke. It is gene backwards.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
God damn it.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Again, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Anyway. Yeah, that's that's gene backwards. God damn it. I
didn't even realize that. That's sad.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Oh that nig was the was the dude who they
had on the inside the right, Yeah, yeah, uh yeah.
And then of course the name Zion is supposed to
be a take on Zion, and a Brahm was Abraham
or Abram, and Devad was David, and Isaiah forgotten there
(30:56):
there was a Divod and Daris was is Sarah with
a D in front of it.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I guess, Good Lord Sarah.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
George Kay does not appear in this episode. We just
got him back for Christ's sake, George.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
God damn it. Well, maybe he just didn't want to
parade around in a Nazi costume. Maybe that would have bad.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You know, hey, George de Kay as a child was
put into the concentration camps.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
And that's a good reason. Now that you mentioned that,
I would say, nah, I'll sit this one out.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, James Doing only had one line of this episode quote,
I sir, whatever your condition?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Wow? Indeed, yeah, I mean you.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Know he got double time. Well, actually, was he even
Scotty in the last episode? No, so he was sargone
last episode.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That's fair. He was, It was it was mostly doing
that role he was. He was making Kirk lip sync.
So Shatner had a rough time. That's that's fun.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Several well, I I think that was. I think they
did like a combination of him and Shatner because I
heard for sure that's fair.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I didn't listen that clostly, I.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Guess several of the cast who dress up as Nazis
in the episode, notably William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, had
Jewish backgrounds. On December first, nineteen sixty seven, newspaper and
magazine photographers were invited to the Scent for publicity. Nimoy
refused to have any pictures taken of him in Nazi
uniform as he was due to attend the will Shire
(32:23):
Boulevard Temple Children's Hanaka services later the same month and
did not want any possible controversies to arise.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Very valid, I I'll take you understandable.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Meanwhile, Shatter's like here, here, take my picture. Nah, look
at me.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I'm wearing a helmet. No, I'm a Gestapo agent. Amen.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, it's a very important episode. This episode discounts the
previously established theory of Hodgkin's law of parallel planetary development,
which was established to explain the similarity scene in bredon circuses.
In this case, Kirk observes that the chances of another
planet developing a culture like Nazi Germany using the forms,
the symbols the uniforms of the twentieth century Earth are
(33:05):
so fantastically slim, which Spock's describes. Spock describes as virtually impossible.
But John Gill had contaminated the development of Echoes' culture
by introducing a modified version of Nazism to the planet,
thereby breaching the prime directive, and hence this society did
not evolve normally. Thus Hodgkins's law might not have been
(33:25):
applicable here.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah, that makes sense. And also if there had been
no interference, you might have had a Nazi like Germany
like state that would have just never come up with
this same exact imagery, which is like Hodgkins law to me,
never implied like yeah, you'll go through industrialization and then
look exactly like this country from Earth.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Right like it is.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
They already have to point out there's some architectural similarities,
so that's interesting, Like because they're humanoid, it's it's bound
to be similar. Sure, But then when you go like, ah,
those costumes are exactly from our history, like at that point,
someone someone has known the exact someone has memorized how
to draw a swastika correctly.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Basically, oh lordie, oh well, yeah, you know, it's a
bad episode. It's a bad fucking episode, Like it ain't.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
It ain't great, but it's it also didn't feel to
me watching it like it was one of the worst.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
I've seen right now, it's not one of the worst.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
No, it's it's just it ain't great. I could have
used the rewrite probably, there was no time for that shit.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So you know, yeah, like I said, you know, this
is these are pick up episodes. They didn't know they
were making these exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I'm glad they remastered that fucking laser because it looks
real different.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Is that sark cousin?
Speaker 2 (34:55):
No, yeah, yeah, it's it's like, oh, we remastered it
to be a tighter laser.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I guess, yeah, it looks I'm not look brighter. It
looks brighter. It doesn't look better.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
No, it doesn't look better. Yeah, that's that's that's yeah, glad,
glad we spend money on that.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
The laser from the light bulb and the diodes or
whatever the fuck it was. The spock of the.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
In inside the fucking communicator. No, no, inside their arms,
the transponders that never came in to use other than
being like cut our arms open, trying to kill yourself,
which was dark like that, if anything, was like are
we teaching kids how to cut open their arms?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Like, mommy, I think I have a transponder in.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
My r Give me the kitchen knife, mommy.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
The underground area in the say is the same set
that was used for the Devil in the Dark.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Did you catch that right? Yes, yes, now that you
mention it, yeah, headquarters pretty damn similar.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, yeah it was. Yeah, the headquarters of the Nazi
Party in this episode are the redecorated offices of param
Pictures during the sixties, including the building where Lucille Ball
ran Desilu. So that's kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
That's that's funny. Yeah, to use that's that's interesting. Like
let's fuck with the producers for a bit.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, now ay. Because the subject matter of the nation's
Nazi pass was deemed too serious and too sensitive a
topic for light TV entertainment, this episode was withheld from
broadcast and its two original runs by the German stations
that aired the original series, the public ZDF network in
the mid nineteen seventies and the private SAT one network
(36:36):
in the late eighties and early nineties, and resulted that
Patterns of Force became the only original series episode not
to be aired in Germany. Only in nineteen ninety six
was the dubbed episode finally shown on German PayTV, shortly
after the first time German language release on VHS the
(36:56):
year previously, and included on all subsequent DVD Blu ray
Discs season sets.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Fair enough, once they had done the dub, they you know,
you might as well air.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
It, yeah, jesus, I mean the nineties though.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah, yeah, like that couldn't have been the same, like
voice actors doing the dub anyway that it doesn't sound weird.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
It wasn't until November fourth, twenty eleven, that it was
finally shown on the public network channel zd F. Neo, h,
that's nothing, that's late.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's funny in a way,
because let's be real, there's a there's a an American
Nazi pass that is also oft overlooked and not discussed.
But you know that's that's you know, we prefer to
ignore it so it's no longer sensitive. We can air
that shit. But yeah, Germany is pretty damn serious about
(37:53):
not taking any of the fascist bullshit too lightly. There is,
like they are very clear about pre speech is fun,
but also don't be a fucking Nazi because we know
where that went. And honestly, more more country should take
a fucking note from from their book, because my god,
(38:14):
if only there was that limit, it would it would
be good.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Oh all right, do you have anything else on this episode?
Anything you want to go?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I'm about to know that my mom could have never
seen this as a kid, though, because we I remember
her telling me like I saw it on German TV,
and I'm like, yeah, you didn't see.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
This one apparently. Yeah, I know, yeah, I just you know,
even yeah, okay, it's funny that they you know, Kirk
was like beam was McCoy down naked if you have to,
he's just like Beams down like trying to put on
his boot. It's kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Just too small, It's it's useless. It's just it was
unnecessary for him to not just be dressed already.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
There's so much pass Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
It is very much padding out the runtime because you
could have just been like, I'm dressed, I'm ready, let's
let's let's go, and not imply that the costume machine
inside the enterprise is just sometimes terrible at remembering your
shoe size. Yeah, I materialize this out of thin air.
But also it's a little tight. Yeah, you like if
(39:23):
it had been like around his waist, that would have
been funny and like, oh you gained some weight like
that could have been a gag.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
His shoe is just just an excuse to be like, oh,
he's still sitting down trying to trying to get it on.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
What's mostly what's mostly aggravating to me about it is
while it was chuckleworthy. It was like there is so
much fucking padding where like you know, the changing of costumes,
like now they're getting whipped and like, oh now they've
got to change costumes again, and and now they gotta
go underground and now they.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Get caught and then they get uncought and then they
get caught again. Yeah, then the underground movement has to
do a secret play to test if they're not secretly Nazis,
and uh uh, you know, it's it's it's it's something,
but it's not great.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
It's a lot of patting. And what I really wanted
was more about John Gill and why he did the
ship that he did.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
And hows that time to build out the ending and
be like what the fuck happened here? Mm hmm and
had a better answer. Then at some point he got
drugged and then the evil guy took over, Like come.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
On, yeah, like I I want to put more blame
on John Gill, like I want there to be like
a dude, No, I've always been obsessed with this specifically,
and I've always wanted to see, like I saw an
opportunity to see if it would work.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, exactly, like make something stupid out of academic interest
in there, because now it's very much that that sort
of well I didn't I didn't think this would go
wrong again, Like, this just doesn't make sense. You put
in a state propaganda machine that could be abused by
the guy under you. Like come on, even either Hitler
(41:07):
himself had people taste his fucking food and you just
got drugged. Yeah, that's dumb and Hitler.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, and you know, there was an opportunity there for
to do a story about, you know, forcing these people
to be observers, training them to be observers, to be
emotionally detached from it might actually have aided in his
clinical is you know, very cold clinical need to see
if this would work. So maybe he's.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Had more of a group to do that with. Yeah, yeah,
just a secret society of y'all know I'm an alien.
Now that we've got that out of the way, I
would to build a Nazi society here, y'all don't know
how that ended last time, but I know shit could
have gone weird. You could have done so much more
with this with the premise of we want to use
(41:57):
these costumes.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Essentially, I think it would be an interesting like if
you took every person who was a Zayon and made
them part of his original observation team and obliterate that
that whole like Nazis versus the Jews.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Thing, Yeah yeah, get rid of the yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
But show like the Nazis turning on themselves when they
don't have someone to go after.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah. Yeah, Like just the logical approach is, oh, now
that we're like, we don't have an out group, we
have to create an outgroup, because that's how Nazism works.
That would be an interesting take because that is very
much that. Well, if only the white people are left, wait,
wait two minutes before some white person starts calling the
(42:46):
other white person not white enough anymore. Like if if
you ethnically cleanse the US people would start caring about
you being Irish again, you know that sort of shit,
that's that's just a given.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
But yeah, they they didn't go there or do anything
with that, and instead they did do the whole sensitive
thing of like, yeah, they are rounding of Jews, I guess.
And also let's name them Xeon And I mean that
aged poorly because of Zionism currently, but it's not subtle anyway.
(43:21):
It was a bad name to begin with. Yeah, I
don't know why Ecosts was do you know, do you
know if a coss meant meant anything?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
You know, I didn't say anything, but fair enough, you know,
I'm not I'm not terribly right. Yeah, that's fair either.
So honestly, could have just been as simple as being
an you know, they're an echo of what we did. Anyway,
a lot of a lot of stuff they could have
done better in this episode. I feel like, but uh.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, we'll we'll rewrite it and then have nowhere to
go with.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
That's right, next time. Next time with the classic trail
watch rewatch, it is time to meet Daystrom's M five AI,
a wonderful innovation until the Wargames exercise. We'll get into
the cold calculated carnage of the Ultimate Computer. But until then,
(44:15):
Joe Lonetrue, live long and prosper, and of course.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Eat a Dick. Nazis, Eat a Dick.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Thank you for listening to the Star Trek Universe Podcast,
a stranded pan of production. If you'd like to hear
more from David C. Robertson, check out the DC on
Screen podcast or Malagus dot tv for his web videos.
If you'd like to hear more from Matthew Carroll.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Check out the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, or listen to
his music. Just search for Matthew Carroll anywhere you get
music
On this episode of Star Trek Universe. It is another
classic trek Watch rewatch as FA and I navigate a
weird ass tale of cultural contamination thanks to one piss
poor historian. We'll get into John Gill and his misguided
attempts at introducing Nazism with benign leadership right after these
words from our mystery Drugged Furors behind the Curtain. On
(00:32):
this episode of Star Trek Universe, it is another classic
trek Watch rewatch as Fa and I navigate a weird
ass tale of cultural contamination thanks to one piss poor historian.
We'll get into John Gill and his misguided attempts at
introducing Nazism with benign leadership right after these words from
our mystery Drugged Furors behind the Curtain. Welcome into Star
(00:57):
Trek Universe. As I said at the top, this is
another of our classic trek Watch rewatch episodes. I am
David c. Roberson. I have seen all of the episodes
many times over, and.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
I am fool Pelller's meaning. I have seen this episode
and the ones before once, just once, just the ones
I am not doing more than humanly necessary for, you know,
just just the bare minimum. That's that's my style.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, and you know what, I have good news the
memory alpha summary not so not so lacking.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's multiple lines.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
This it is the enterprise searching for a missing Federation.
Historian discovers that the historian has apparently contaminated the cultural
development of the planet where he was assigned as a
cultural observer to have it follow the societal path of
Nazi Germany in the nineteen thirties and forties. That pretty
much sums it up.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah, yeah, pretty much sped up too, because like the
from thirty three to forty they condensed that in a
couple of years. Apparently he was efficient about it. They're
very bad at observing and you know, non interference and
all that. I feel like I feel like they're like
everybody knows the prime directive, let me read up on
(02:12):
the directive two and three and four, and then they
forget by the time they have to do anything. It's
it's impressive, really.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
Right, right. The first one is like non interference, and
then like the second rule is when you fuck.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
That up, are you allowed to repair it or does
that also count as interference? Let's not think about.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It to much. What's their secondary or directive. Oh fuck,
ah shit, I feel like I feel like it reads
like a fuck what was a snark's bit in the
flash or whatever it was where it's like, next step,
abandon the plan. You know what I'm talking about?
Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, yeah, I vaguely recall this. Yeah, let be no
more plan about the plants improvise all right? So, oh
I missed that actor. I don't know what he's doing
now something. Yes, that's the name. I have heard that
name many a time on the DC on Screen reviews.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Per episode, they do a good workover on DC on Screen.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
I've heard. I've heard that those guys do a good job,
and I hear the hours.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I hear that that then the host, you know, not
the co host.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
No, no, no, Jason, Jason, the main host.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
No no, I heard the main host, not Jason.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Oh, the non Jason. Yeah. I keep forgetting his name.
Speaker 1 (03:40):
Yeah, I hear positive things about his dick. I don't know,
you know, I didn't because that is.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
The only thing I've remembered about him. Yes, I cannot,
for the life of me remember his name, But boy,
do I remember his dick.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I can't remember what that precedes him. Oh, I don't
remember if it was like, oh my god, it's amazing,
even though it's small, or if it was like a
who was what a sweat big swinging thing that is?
I don't know which one it was, but.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I think it was just very cute.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, yeah, just just.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Like good head of hair, just you know, still still
for its heavy hair doing well. Hey man, I'm not
into it, but some of the girls are. Maybe.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
It was just like a shock in awe situation. It
wasn't really a good or bad thing. It was like,
my god, it's like a slinky and.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Like like ducks, slinkies are cork screws, right, That's that's
what I'm thinking. It makes sense. Yeah, and and he
can probably go off stairs that way.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Yeah, I've heard a bit, but you know that was
that actually reminds me of one of the funniest Kevin
Neeland jokes. I remember hearing he was explaining to and
O'Brien and he was like, yeah, yeah, I met my
wife had a Halloween party and she was dressed as
a slinky. I've never seen anyone do that before. Anyway,
when I first saw her, she was coming down the stairs.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Delightful. Yeah, yeah, it's impressive. I saw Halloween costume this
year of someone being an Ostrich but like with the
hand up.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Oh yeahs a sock puppet, yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
And like the feathers, so they had to drop forward
as well, just hide their face. And it was funny.
It was good. It was a good, good idea.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah, solid. I have seen a lot of those people
doing a lot of that on reels and tiktoks and stuff,
and I'm like, my god, that would hurt my back.
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Oh off, of course you couldn't do that all night. No,
you would basically do it only every time someone at
the party asked the fuck is your costume? And then
flip over and be like, it's an it's an Ostrich. Yeah,
here you are, here you go, and then flip back
and be like, let me let me take my drink
back the right side up because gravity doesn't work with
(06:05):
this costume.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
You know, ship like that anyway.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
But it's a fun idea and it's you know, that's
what reels are good for, showing off your Halloween costume.
And then the rest of the year we should just
not post anything because you know, sooner or later you
get bored. You don't have Halloween costume in mid March
and you post a bunch of Nazi propaganda on Twitter.
It's it's just how it goes.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Oh, that's not how it goes for me.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
I mean I have never partaken, but that doesn't mean
that lots of people aren't doing it.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Right speaking of Nazi propaganda, ha ha, I did a
segue accidentally. I think no, I was.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
I was. I was absolutely setting you up for that one.
Always bring the conversation back to Nazis.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
That's pretty good for me.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
It's the world we live in. I'm trying to have
some escapism. You know, watch a show be off in
the far future. What what perks up on my screen
is just fucking Nazis. Again. At least these ones are
pretty open about it, right.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I have to say, I've never really liked this episode
very much.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, it does just feel like we have a set
and costume reservoir that we can use for this, and
they did. It's it doesn't Yeah, it doesn't have a
lot to say is I think my main issue where
I'm like, you sort of have the speech at the
end where it's like, well they were hideous evil men,
but also the leader principle where you're like, Okay, have
(07:31):
we now examined the fact that you're the leader of
this ship and there's a hierarchy. Still do we think
about this beyond the fact that maybe ethnic cleansing isn't
the greatest idea, right, I don't know. It's not the
most interesting take on World War Two. It is an
(07:52):
interesting examination purely from the standpoint of, oh, it works,
it's efficient. It's the best way to unite a people
is to be a fucking populist asshole. Yeah, and that
rings true to this day, sure, But beyond that, it's
it's just an excuse to have them run around in
(08:12):
Nazi costumes like that was the kind of Yeah, there's
a lot of stills where I'm like, I don't know if,
in hindsight, if you would want these pictures out in
the ether.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
But it was it was interesting, at least from the
perspective of UH entertainment, because it was a relatively lighthearted episode.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Yeah for what it was somehow, Yeah, to.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Have had some the fucking Nazis killing xeons or whatever,
like one one one letter away from Zions.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
No letter away from Abram and Isaac and Isaac is
just really it's it's just pronounced differently, it's still spelled
like Isaac fuck off.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely so, uh, we can talk more. We'll
talk more about it.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Grateful for the subtitles to be like, oh no, they
they specified it. It's is barely different, but it's it's
it's different. It sounds the same, but you know you
spell it with an oh. Well.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
This episode, you know, was an episode that launched a
million fanzines. Spock with his shirt off.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Though fair enough and the green the green blood from
the lashes. He doesn't appear to feel, which is a
nice touch. I did. I did appreciate that he's just
standing there like, yeah, just go off, You're not strong
enough to hurt me.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, that was one of those things.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
I'm bleeding, but apparently I don't feel a fucking thing.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Well, he I think he does feel it. I feel it.
He's just he cons right.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
That also works, he control works. I kind of have
an emotional outburst, but he also doesn't flinch, you know,
mm hmmm, so I could I could have also taken
it as well. He's a falcon. He's not going to
be harmed by a human that he's That is.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
One of the initial things that I remember as a kid, like,
like a really young kid. One of my first memories
of Star Trek is this episode and me asking my
parents why is Spock not hurt? And they were like, oh,
he's just controlling his emotions. It hurts.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
He's an alien. Fair enough. Okay, you know glad your
parents were there to explain this concept.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yeah, like, oh, Spock hurts, he just doesn't show it.
Oh okay, yeah, all right.
Speaker 2 (10:33):
He must feel it. That's that's fair. I just I
would have because of the bleeding, I would have expected
him to be slightly more invulnerable, if that makes sense.
But maybe they're just really strong. But also glass cannons.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
Well you know, he's just you know, there's whipping them
with freaking cat and I tails. I mean, that's gonna
rip you a party the way I guess.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Apparently. I don't know how strong vulcan skin is. Oh
I don't know this yet, but it's apparently it can
be broken.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Yeah, yeah, is as strong as the plot requires it
to be.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Fair Enough, I'll take that. That's how we roll.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
But you know, a lot of fun, little whimsical dialogue,
you know, uh, also poking fun at uh. The Nazis
here as their their newscaster had said that, you know,
their missiles had utterly destroyed the enemy. And we, of
course we saw that the Enterprise blasted their little missile
out of out of the stars. And yep, Kirk says,
(11:30):
you look quite well for a man who's been utterly destroyed,
mister Spot, like North Korea ship yep so, and just
like the little barbs at each other, like.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
And the stepping on his bro on his his tortured
back for and and like dragging out it's very much
comedic take despite the seriousness of the of the context.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
And Spot just like having a whole conversation up there, like,
come on, man, you know what was going on. You're
standing on his tatterny.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Just being a dick. You're you're just you're just you're
you're purposely not understanding idioms all of a sudden, come on, come.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
On, man, Spock telling Kirk you should make a very
convincing Nazi.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Yeah, that is that. And that look that that Kirk
gives in that moment is great. Just like that's not
a compliment.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, captain, I'm beginning to understand why you earth men
enjoy gambling, no matter how carefully one computes the odds
of success. There is still a certain exhilaration in the
risk very good spot. We may make a human of you,
yet I hope not.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Yeah, that exchange is also just there to be to
be funny. They have much. It felt a bit bit
forced to me like that one, but it's it's still
a fun exchange because yeah, the the I hope not
part was just you can say it with him before
ever hearing the line you know what's coming.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
But you know, this is they're making strides here, like
they're starting to uh, you know, it's not fucking Hogan's
heroes or anything, but they're putting some comedy here into
the Nazi Germany aspect of it. This is, you know.
And then I think it's like shortly after this that uh,
fucking the producers springtime for Hitler, all that ship with
(13:21):
mel Brooks happens. So oh right, yeah, we're you know,
starting to creative, starting age their way into talking about
this stuff with we can.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
We can sort of make Holocaust jokes now. But also
the zones are being rounded up yet we don't see
gas chambers. We don't know they're heading up in ovens yet.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Right, It's very very odd episode they're towing ah.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Yeah, strange tone.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Yeah, it feels weird. You know, you've got the primary
zeon character saying, you know, like I don't I don't
believe in violence, but after seeing what I did today,
I could kill.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Yeah that's dark. That's a good line. But that's line
that's sort of what I latched onto because I'm like, yeah,
this is a serious as fox setting, and you have
like the intro, the intrigue and the intricacies of the
plot where it's like, oh, that high positioned officer in
the in the Nazi party might actually be on our
side and might be undercover, Like that's an interesting twist
(14:21):
a toy with and have confirmed at the end, and
it's it's it's almost sort of a shame to end
up at the Yeah, John Gill wasn't all bad, sort
of he was drugged and someone else who was worse
took his place, sort of like it felt kind of
(14:42):
forced because they set it up as he was such
a peaceful, nice guy, but also he he wanted to
like he felt the best way to get this planet
to progress was bringing it into wartime Nazi Germany like structures.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, I don't know, he didn't.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Even he didn't he could have come up with a
new fucking symbol.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Right, That's what I was about to say. It's like,
I don't understand why like it had to be like
other than the fact that people.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Will respond well to this swastika, I can't make it
a different kind of symbol.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
It's because it's so hard to draw. I think people
are drawn.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
To That's that must be it. Yes, then the SS
is just a very simple symbol. Yeah, but you know
which is what SS sense were actually simple symbol?
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Oh okay, yeah I thought I thought it was too
like chopped off flash bolts.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
That is that? That is the Flashes logo on Earth Acts.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Absolutely yeah yeah yeah, so look now, I uh I
obviously what they have they didn't have money, Like I said,
like I've told you book, it is.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
A it is a cheap way to get around, like
let's have a lot of costuming without having to make
new ones, right because these can just use the non
alien things there.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
These were literally costumes from an actual movie, like an
honest to god movie. So they yeah, they look good.
So and maybe it's just like the historian being like,
you know, jacking off to the historical accuracy of it.
Maybe that's why he was like, let's do this. But
you know, he did say, you know, they had issues.
I wanted to help them, and I thought because he
(16:24):
believed that they were the most officient, like the Nazis
were still the most efficient group that Earth has ever seen.
And then Kirk and Spock were like, yep, absolutely, which
you know, I guess at that times a lot of
people still believed it. The writer talked about how he
believed it, so at that time that was still believed.
(16:44):
It's been completely fucking demolished, this notion at this point
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
Like the only reason it brought the country back from
the brink of debt is a they stopped paying that
fucking debt and they went into the industry of war.
They just built a ship ton of weapons for the
express purpose of war. And if you make everyone work
in your fucking weapons factory, yeah there's a lot less unemployment.
It's like, yeah, you can change things pretty drastically if
(17:13):
you're the authoritarian leader of a of a place. But
he could have gone about it any other way. And
it's it's very much, but it's it's it's it misses
the nuance where Okay, so he got like all of
the Nazis shipped together to come to power, to rise
to that point. But we're supposed to believe he did
(17:33):
that without blaming one out group for all of the
ship that's wrong with society because that came later. Come on,
that's that's essential for fascism. That's that's one of the
very aspects of being a Nazi is well, we're gonna
pretend we had nothing to do with all the problems.
There's just a cohort of xeons out there room society
(17:57):
secretly and run our media and and let's replace it
all with our view screens. I did enjoy that word.
It was a few screens they had, like a it's
not quite a television thing that was That was cute,
That was cool. They also sort of predicted the flat screen,
didn't they.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yes, well, Star Trek didn't know.
Speaker 2 (18:17):
I think about it, like god.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Star Trek kind of did in general really with the
view screen on the bridge and ship.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
On the bridge. But that feels like a window in
a way that has an overlay. But but yeah, it
can show video in that sense. I just mean like this,
this looked like a flat screen. Like even the the
if they communicate internally on the enterprise, you have the
little boxes behind the screens, so outside of the cockpit,
(18:48):
I guess the there's there's not much much in the
way of that, but it is fun to be like, huh.
That didn't stick out to me at first because I'm
used to flat fucking televisions. But to them that was like, oh,
we interposed one picture into another and it took a
load of work.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
That's cool. Yeah, and I take it that was old footage,
by the way, the black and white nineteen thirties footage.
That that was just real some of it, some of it, Yeah,
not the actress being you know, getting her promotion or anything.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
That wasn't the only thing that they faced.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
He saw Hitler, for Fox's sake, I mean, come on.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Yeah, that wasn't the only thing they faked.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
But also kind of sad that Gil didn't actually grow
the fucking mustache. If you're going for all of the imagery,
you should have had a dumb mustache.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Maybe he tried it because I think maybe I think
the Hitler, I think that Hitler we saw was supposed
to be John Gill.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah, in his younger years. Yeah, but also it's happened
in a couple of years. Yeah, so yeah, whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Maybe he went through maybe he went through a face.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
He thought, No, this looks stupid. I'm shaving today.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
This is embarrassing. I dyed my hair and getting anything.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That's why he was why the coup happened in the
first place. His under officer was like, this looks ridiculous.
I'm drugging you and shaving you in your sleep.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
Well, yeah, that's what John Gill winds up saying in
the episode the planet was fragmented, divided, took lesson from
Earth history? Why Nazi Germany? You studied history, you knew
what the Nazis were, most efficient state Earth ever knew.
But he thought he could create this efficient state but
with benign leadership. Except then he was overpowered by something possible. Yeah, assholes.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Also Yeah, but they don't quite get to the point
of because it wasn't him being corrupted by power, like
they try to sort of imply at the end, it
was the guy underneath him, like it was evil men
profiting off of the structure of authoritarianism, implying that as
long as there had been a benevolent dictator. It would
(21:00):
have been fine. There's no problem with authoritarianism. You can
just you know, united people and be very very efficient
about your governing if you're the only one in charge,
and somehow the fragmentation and division wasn't an issue anymore.
But but you still need someone to blame, you still
need an outgroup. So it's it kind of gets past
(21:23):
that bit of the history very easily, and I'm confused
that like nazis bad.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Well I knew that part.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Okay, okay, So I.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
I do feel like this is a very heavy handed
but ultimately lazily written episode. Yeah, to the point where
like I'm annoyed that like they are seeing Spock and
they're just like, ah, well all those ears, you're fucking
inferior race. No question about where they came from, No, no, no.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Just some fucking mutation living underground or some shit like
they don't have I guess they don't really have a
perception or an awareness of outside planets yet because their
their military arsenal is far inferior still, where it's like, yeah,
I have some thermonuclear bombs and we can just phaser
(22:14):
them out of space, so it's not much of a threat.
But it feels like they like, yeah, John Gale was
dropped off, but other than that, they must not have
seen a ship ever until Enterprise shows up.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, it's just this, there's so many questions, so many
things that they didn't explore in the even think through
why though, Why the fuck would that one dude be like,
I don't like your color there, you look sick. Take
off your helmet, Like what why did you think that?
Speaker 2 (22:48):
He? Exactly you? He could have had normal fucking ears
and a weird ass dick and you would have never known.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Take out that, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
What if he had gills in the sides of his
his his fucking torso, like, take all of take all
of your clothes off because you look greenish.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I inspect that dick looks like a hammer.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
They wouldn't have gotten away with most of these plots
where they dress up if if Spock had been red
as originally intended, that that would have made it quite
a difference. You seem hot. Soldier doesn't doesn't quite work
the same.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
He's like, yes, I ate a chili.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I am very very white, so I turned bright red.
But by the slightest bit of heat in my food.
It's It's just a genetic thing, sir, a superior race.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
Lieutenant, have you ever tried a ghost pepper?
Speaker 2 (23:45):
M I accidentally mistook a Madame Jeanette for a bell pepper.
It was my mistake and I'm owning it all right. Uh.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
During the first season, Paul Schneider wrote a story out
line entitled Tomorrow the Universe about the Enterprise encountering an
alien planet, adopting Nazi ideology, and forming its own third rite.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Nder does imply more risk alreadymore and more stakes of
like they will go out into the universe and conquers
all the expansionism that is also a part of you know, well,
we won't stop at the planet next door.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
But Schneider began to develop the story further. However, when
John Meredith Lucas came up with this very similar idea
of patterns of force, it was deemed much better than
Schneider's story, which was scrapped.
Speaker 2 (24:37):
Ah.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
John Meredith Lucas wrote this episode out of his fascination
with the functioning of totalitarian regimes, especially Nazi Germany, and
their ability to stay in power.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Their ability call it violence.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
William Shatner quoted him to Chris Kresky in Star Trek
Memories as saying that quote it was fun to write
a well meaning not a guy who for the right
cause completely fucked everything up. You know. We started with
the question how the hell did Nazism get past the
ships and the street gangs and take root among the
basically decent people. How did sane, reasonable adults come to
(25:13):
buy into this bullshit? The answer seemed to be because
it was efficient, and because of a society beset by
all kinds of problems, it may have seemed like a
feasible necessity, So it becomes feasible and the people take
that leap.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Yeah, but also the basically decent people look at other
people like their ships and street gangs. That's kind of
a problem.
Speaker 1 (25:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Oh well, believe Nazism is an interesting topic. I have passionate,
passionate opinions.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
Oh I know, I know.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Oh boy, Oh well, I mean I can die. Yeah. Yeah,
it's just like it is.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
It is.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
It is a shame that they had to sort of
take that lighthearted approach because there's something in there. But
I feel like you couldn't just take the blame off
of John Gill like you would have had to have
him be so cynical as to realize they needed an enemy.
And also the stakes only were because the other planet
is supposedly entirely peaceful, as you know, the more evolved option,
(26:19):
because everything goes through the same sort of Western civilization
development stages in this show. So you know, if they're
if they hadn't been, hadn't evolved past war, they might
defend themselves or some ship. But also we have to
as the Federation have evolved past war, but not quite
(26:40):
because we still have a fucking expansionist colonist military group.
So are we Are we pacifist enough? No? No, the
real pacifists are always the weaklings who sit by the
side and wait to get killed or some shit. Sure's
it is an interesting cosmology in that sense.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah hmm. And early draft of this episode had the
source of cultural contamination arriving aboard a small Ambassador class
vessel called the Magellan. The name was later applied in
TG to the Ambassador class of ships in the mid
twenty fourth century. I say, I liked the idea. I
liked the idea better that there was some sort of
(27:19):
cultural contamination that was not related to a representative of
the Federation just doing it because it just makes him
look stupid.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, fucking you like Nazi Germany, Like this was the
one solution you saw out of polarization. I guess the
planet was fragmented. I guess I had to become a dictator.
Speaker 1 (27:41):
What and like? And then like he never answered, he's.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
The democratic ideals off the federation.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
And I hate that he never I hate that he
never answers or gets to answer. They drugged him up
so much and made him like so impossible for the
character to say anything. It's like, because I my next question,
or maybe even my first question if I was Kurt,
was dude, what the fuck happened to the prime directive?
Like why we have a non Did.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
You abandon your post? Like you have one rule?
Speaker 1 (28:08):
You were meant to be an observer?
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Yeah, Like the worst thing that could have happened was
they were already going to war. Would have blown themselves up,
and I would have been like, guys, can you come
pick me up? Beat me up someone? Because there they
ald Thermo nuclear warheaded themselves, which I'm guessing wasn't actually
(28:30):
a thing yet before because they were ahead of schedule
according to their h you know, previous development. So like
technologically they had advanced because of John Gill being like,
and this is how you build a thermo nuclear warhead
ships that will come get me? Like who thought that
was a good idea?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
And I want to see, like I really do, Like
give me a whole series set on this planet with
John Gill, Like show me why John Gill decides to
stop observing and start taking action.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Could be interesting. It could be an entire story.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
It could be like it's very very interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Really, Like I I'd imagine you'd have to be become real,
real cynical, Like you'd have to really reach that point
of there is no way out this. This planet is
going to ship, you know, And I've tried everything and
now I'm trying this.
Speaker 1 (29:25):
Yeah, explained it's.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Been interesting if it hadn't been just a couple of years,
I guess. And yeah, I don't know. It feels a
bit rushed into that sort of backstory in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
I mean they could absolutely because of World War Three
and the eugenics wars and all this ship they could
absolutely have like fucked up records or something that misrepresent
what Nazi Germany was or how efficient it was. Yeah,
I can I can.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Make shittier history than we do. That's absolutely fair.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Yeah. I mean they've actually said that in certain Star
Trek episodes. They're like, oh, records from this time because
of the war.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah yeah, the World War kind of kind of burns
a lot of books. Whatever. Yeah, that's what they did
in the Second World War two.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
No, so, I mean, you know, uh, Inigg's name is
an inside joke. It is gene backwards.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
God damn it.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Again, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Anyway. Yeah, that's that's gene backwards. God damn it. I
didn't even realize that. That's sad.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Oh that nig was the was the dude who they
had on the inside the right, Yeah, yeah, uh yeah.
And then of course the name Zion is supposed to
be a take on Zion, and a Brahm was Abraham
or Abram, and Devad was David, and Isaiah forgotten there
(30:56):
there was a Divod and Daris was is Sarah with
a D in front of it.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
I guess, Good Lord Sarah.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
George Kay does not appear in this episode. We just
got him back for Christ's sake, George.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
God damn it. Well, maybe he just didn't want to
parade around in a Nazi costume. Maybe that would have bad.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
You know, hey, George de Kay as a child was
put into the concentration camps.
Speaker 2 (31:25):
And that's a good reason. Now that you mentioned that,
I would say, nah, I'll sit this one out.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, James Doing only had one line of this episode quote,
I sir, whatever your condition?
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Wow? Indeed, yeah, I mean you.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Know he got double time. Well, actually, was he even
Scotty in the last episode? No, so he was sargone
last episode.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
That's fair. He was, It was it was mostly doing
that role he was. He was making Kirk lip sync.
So Shatner had a rough time. That's that's fun.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Several well, I I think that was. I think they
did like a combination of him and Shatner because I
heard for sure that's fair.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
I didn't listen that clostly, I.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Guess several of the cast who dress up as Nazis
in the episode, notably William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy, had
Jewish backgrounds. On December first, nineteen sixty seven, newspaper and
magazine photographers were invited to the Scent for publicity. Nimoy
refused to have any pictures taken of him in Nazi
uniform as he was due to attend the will Shire
(32:23):
Boulevard Temple Children's Hanaka services later the same month and
did not want any possible controversies to arise.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Very valid, I I'll take you understandable.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
Meanwhile, Shatter's like here, here, take my picture. Nah, look
at me.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I'm wearing a helmet. No, I'm a Gestapo agent. Amen.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Yeah, it's a very important episode. This episode discounts the
previously established theory of Hodgkin's law of parallel planetary development,
which was established to explain the similarity scene in bredon circuses.
In this case, Kirk observes that the chances of another
planet developing a culture like Nazi Germany using the forms,
the symbols the uniforms of the twentieth century Earth are
(33:05):
so fantastically slim, which Spock's describes. Spock describes as virtually impossible.
But John Gill had contaminated the development of Echoes' culture
by introducing a modified version of Nazism to the planet,
thereby breaching the prime directive, and hence this society did
not evolve normally. Thus Hodgkins's law might not have been
(33:25):
applicable here.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah, that makes sense. And also if there had been
no interference, you might have had a Nazi like Germany
like state that would have just never come up with
this same exact imagery, which is like Hodgkins law to me,
never implied like yeah, you'll go through industrialization and then
look exactly like this country from Earth.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
Right like it is.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
They already have to point out there's some architectural similarities,
so that's interesting, Like because they're humanoid, it's it's bound
to be similar. Sure, But then when you go like, ah,
those costumes are exactly from our history, like at that point,
someone someone has known the exact someone has memorized how
to draw a swastika correctly.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Basically, oh lordie, oh well, yeah, you know, it's a
bad episode. It's a bad fucking episode, Like it ain't.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
It ain't great, but it's it also didn't feel to
me watching it like it was one of the worst.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
I've seen right now, it's not one of the worst.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
No, it's it's just it ain't great. I could have
used the rewrite probably, there was no time for that shit.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
So you know, yeah, like I said, you know, this
is these are pick up episodes. They didn't know they
were making these exactly.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I'm glad they remastered that fucking laser because it looks
real different.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Is that sark cousin?
Speaker 2 (34:55):
No, yeah, yeah, it's it's like, oh, we remastered it
to be a tighter laser.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
I guess, yeah, it looks I'm not look brighter. It
looks brighter. It doesn't look better.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
No, it doesn't look better. Yeah, that's that's that's yeah, glad,
glad we spend money on that.
Speaker 1 (35:10):
The laser from the light bulb and the diodes or
whatever the fuck it was. The spock of the.
Speaker 2 (35:15):
In inside the fucking communicator. No, no, inside their arms,
the transponders that never came in to use other than
being like cut our arms open, trying to kill yourself,
which was dark like that, if anything, was like are
we teaching kids how to cut open their arms?
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Like, mommy, I think I have a transponder in.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
My r Give me the kitchen knife, mommy.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
The underground area in the say is the same set
that was used for the Devil in the Dark.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
Did you catch that right? Yes, yes, now that you
mention it, yeah, headquarters pretty damn similar.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Yeah, yeah it was. Yeah, the headquarters of the Nazi
Party in this episode are the redecorated offices of param
Pictures during the sixties, including the building where Lucille Ball
ran Desilu. So that's kind of fun.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
That's that's funny. Yeah, to use that's that's interesting. Like
let's fuck with the producers for a bit.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, now ay. Because the subject matter of the nation's
Nazi pass was deemed too serious and too sensitive a
topic for light TV entertainment, this episode was withheld from
broadcast and its two original runs by the German stations
that aired the original series, the public ZDF network in
the mid nineteen seventies and the private SAT one network
(36:36):
in the late eighties and early nineties, and resulted that
Patterns of Force became the only original series episode not
to be aired in Germany. Only in nineteen ninety six
was the dubbed episode finally shown on German PayTV, shortly
after the first time German language release on VHS the
(36:56):
year previously, and included on all subsequent DVD Blu ray
Discs season sets.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Fair enough, once they had done the dub, they you know,
you might as well air.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
It, yeah, jesus, I mean the nineties though.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Yeah, yeah, like that couldn't have been the same, like
voice actors doing the dub anyway that it doesn't sound weird.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
It wasn't until November fourth, twenty eleven, that it was
finally shown on the public network channel zd F. Neo, h,
that's nothing, that's late.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah, I mean it's it's it's it's funny in a way,
because let's be real, there's a there's a an American
Nazi pass that is also oft overlooked and not discussed.
But you know that's that's you know, we prefer to
ignore it so it's no longer sensitive. We can air
that shit. But yeah, Germany is pretty damn serious about
(37:53):
not taking any of the fascist bullshit too lightly. There is,
like they are very clear about pre speech is fun,
but also don't be a fucking Nazi because we know
where that went. And honestly, more more country should take
a fucking note from from their book, because my god,
(38:14):
if only there was that limit, it would it would
be good.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Oh all right, do you have anything else on this episode?
Anything you want to go?
Speaker 2 (38:24):
I'm about to know that my mom could have never
seen this as a kid, though, because we I remember
her telling me like I saw it on German TV,
and I'm like, yeah, you didn't see.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
This one apparently. Yeah, I know, yeah, I just you know,
even yeah, okay, it's funny that they you know, Kirk
was like beam was McCoy down naked if you have to,
he's just like Beams down like trying to put on
his boot. It's kind of funny.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Just too small, It's it's useless. It's just it was
unnecessary for him to not just be dressed already.
Speaker 1 (38:56):
There's so much pass Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
It is very much padding out the runtime because you
could have just been like, I'm dressed, I'm ready, let's
let's let's go, and not imply that the costume machine
inside the enterprise is just sometimes terrible at remembering your
shoe size. Yeah, I materialize this out of thin air.
But also it's a little tight. Yeah, you like if
(39:23):
it had been like around his waist, that would have
been funny and like, oh you gained some weight like
that could have been a gag.
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
His shoe is just just an excuse to be like, oh,
he's still sitting down trying to trying to get it on.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
What's mostly what's mostly aggravating to me about it is
while it was chuckleworthy. It was like there is so
much fucking padding where like you know, the changing of costumes,
like now they're getting whipped and like, oh now they've
got to change costumes again, and and now they gotta
go underground and now they.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Get caught and then they get uncought and then they
get caught again. Yeah, then the underground movement has to
do a secret play to test if they're not secretly Nazis,
and uh uh, you know, it's it's it's it's something,
but it's not great.
Speaker 1 (40:08):
It's a lot of patting. And what I really wanted
was more about John Gill and why he did the
ship that he did.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
And hows that time to build out the ending and
be like what the fuck happened here? Mm hmm and
had a better answer. Then at some point he got
drugged and then the evil guy took over, Like come.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
On, yeah, like I I want to put more blame
on John Gill, like I want there to be like
a dude, No, I've always been obsessed with this specifically,
and I've always wanted to see, like I saw an
opportunity to see if it would work.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, exactly, like make something stupid out of academic interest
in there, because now it's very much that that sort
of well I didn't I didn't think this would go
wrong again, Like, this just doesn't make sense. You put
in a state propaganda machine that could be abused by
the guy under you. Like come on, even either Hitler
(41:07):
himself had people taste his fucking food and you just
got drugged. Yeah, that's dumb and Hitler.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Yeah, and you know, there was an opportunity there for
to do a story about, you know, forcing these people
to be observers, training them to be observers, to be
emotionally detached from it might actually have aided in his
clinical is you know, very cold clinical need to see
if this would work. So maybe he's.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Had more of a group to do that with. Yeah, yeah,
just a secret society of y'all know I'm an alien.
Now that we've got that out of the way, I
would to build a Nazi society here, y'all don't know
how that ended last time, but I know shit could
have gone weird. You could have done so much more
with this with the premise of we want to use
(41:57):
these costumes.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Essentially, I think it would be an interesting like if
you took every person who was a Zayon and made
them part of his original observation team and obliterate that
that whole like Nazis versus the Jews.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Thing, Yeah yeah, get rid of the yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
But show like the Nazis turning on themselves when they
don't have someone to go after.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah. Yeah, Like just the logical approach is, oh, now
that we're like, we don't have an out group, we
have to create an outgroup, because that's how Nazism works.
That would be an interesting take because that is very
much that. Well, if only the white people are left, wait,
wait two minutes before some white person starts calling the
(42:46):
other white person not white enough anymore. Like if if
you ethnically cleanse the US people would start caring about
you being Irish again, you know that sort of shit,
that's that's just a given.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
But yeah, they they didn't go there or do anything
with that, and instead they did do the whole sensitive
thing of like, yeah, they are rounding of Jews, I guess.
And also let's name them Xeon And I mean that
aged poorly because of Zionism currently, but it's not subtle anyway.
(43:21):
It was a bad name to begin with. Yeah, I
don't know why Ecosts was do you know, do you
know if a coss meant meant anything?
Speaker 1 (43:29):
You know, I didn't say anything, but fair enough, you know,
I'm not I'm not terribly right. Yeah, that's fair either.
So honestly, could have just been as simple as being
an you know, they're an echo of what we did. Anyway,
a lot of a lot of stuff they could have
done better in this episode. I feel like, but uh.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
Yeah, we'll we'll rewrite it and then have nowhere to
go with.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
That's right, next time. Next time with the classic trail
watch rewatch, it is time to meet Daystrom's M five AI,
a wonderful innovation until the Wargames exercise. We'll get into
the cold calculated carnage of the Ultimate Computer. But until then,
(44:15):
Joe Lonetrue, live long and prosper, and of course.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Eat a Dick. Nazis, Eat a Dick.
Speaker 1 (44:24):
Thank you for listening to the Star Trek Universe Podcast,
a stranded pan of production. If you'd like to hear
more from David C. Robertson, check out the DC on
Screen podcast or Malagus dot tv for his web videos.
If you'd like to hear more from Matthew Carroll.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
Check out the Marvel Cinematic Universe podcast, or listen to
his music. Just search for Matthew Carroll anywhere you get
music
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