IPPH presents: "Examining Gil Scott-Heron's Genius"

The Institute of Politics Policy and History at the University of the District of Columbia presents an examination of the work of musician and poet Gil Scott-Heron. Featuring Founding IPPH Director and former Washington DC Mayor Sharon Pratt, IPPH Fellow, literary activist, and writer E. Ethelbert Miller, poet Kenneth Carroll, artist and composer Kim Jordan, poet and critic Aldon Nielsen, and music critic and archivist with the University of the District of Columbia’s Felix E. Grant Jazz Archives.

Episode Transcript

(00:08):
Welcome to iph's very special gathering celebratingthe genius of Gil Scott Heron. I'm
Sharon Pratt, and I'm the foundingdirector of the Institute of Politics, Policy
and History called IPP. Were housedon the campus of the State University of
the University of the District of Columbia, and our mission is twofold one to

(00:34):
rediscover the history of Washington, DC. And you'll be amazed how little of
that history has been chronicled, andwhile at the same time really drilling down
on some of the touchstone issues thathave plagued our country throughout its history.
And interestingly, those twofold mission,that twofold mission playoff of one another because

(00:57):
we became the capital of this countryin part because the founding fathers wanted to
go to a location that still practiceslavery. If they'd gone to Pennsylvania,
it would have been an abolitionist state. So we ended up being the capital.
So in that spirit, we,through this Resident Fellows program in particular,

(01:19):
have explored many facets of Washington life. And we have had no resident
fellow who is more prolific than theone that will is convening us tonight.
Ness Ethelbert Miller. I do wantto say that I'm very privileged to be
here with a great IPPH team.Ethelbert is going to introduce these extraordinary panelists

(01:42):
who are going to be able togive us the many dimensions of Gil Scott
Herron's genius, which I think weall recognize and respect. But I'm here
tonight with joy Ford Austin, whois the director of the Humanity's Program at
IPP, Jody's Saluta who's the associatedirector of operations, Amy Anthony, who's

(02:05):
the associate director of Programs. Wealso have Carolyn Bowden who is our scheduler,
and we have Laura Rowe who isour social media intern. So with
that, let me turn it overto our fearless leader, and that is
none other than Ethelbert Miller. Thankyou, mayor pray. The work of

(02:29):
Gilscott Heron continues to inspire people aroundthe world. His genius connects one generation
to another. Gil Scott Heron lastyear was inducted into the Rock and Roll
Hall of Fame. From around nineteenseventy two to nineteen eighty two, this
novelist, poet, composer, vocalist, and teacher lived in Washington, DC,

(02:52):
and Northern Virginia. Washington, DChas given birth to African American writers,
and this city has also been adestination, especially for writers who came
to study or fine work here.From the Library of Congress, the campus
of Howard University, the campus ofUDC, and the Speaks of Washington.
This city has been blessed because ofpeople like Paul Lawrence Dunbar, Georgia Douglas,

(03:14):
Johnson, Jeane Tumor, May Miller, and sterling A. Brown.
When one looks back in the nineteenseventies in DC, it almost seems if
this period was a golden error interms of Black literary talent and accomplishments.
A city of circles was also filledwith a large circle of writers like Gaston

(03:35):
Neil, Owen Dodson, Eloise Greenfield, Sharon Belle, Matthis Hockey, MARDA
Booty, John, Oliver Killings,Leon Demas, Stephen Henderson, and a
young Great Tape. In the nineteenseventies, there would be National African American
Writers Conferences on the campus of HowardUniversity. These conferences were critical in helping

(03:58):
to assess the importance in significance ofthe Black arts movement. From nineteen seventy
two to nineteen seventy six, GilScott Heron taught creative writing at Federal City
College. During these years, hewould release several important recordings he after he
started recording in August nineteen seventy SmallTalk at one hundred twenty Fifer and Lennox,
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised innineteen seventy two, Pieces of a

(04:20):
Man in nineteen seventy three, andWinter in America in nineteen seventy four.
Gil Scott Harns worked, delivered ina deep baritone voice, would embrace social
commentary, examining such issues as governmentcorruption, nuclear power, and aparthei in
South Africa. This son of aJamaican professional soccer player and a librarian,

(04:41):
was born in Chicago in nineteen fortynine. His early years we spent living
with his grandmother in Jackson, Tennessee. This month, the city of Jackson,
Tennessee dedicated the historical marker a muralhonoring Gilt Scott Herron and many thanks
to James Jerry and others for makingthis possible. The city of Jackson hookes
to have an annual Gil Scott Heroncelebration. Gil scott Heron would move to

(05:06):
the Bronx to live with his motherwhen he was thirteen years old. Key
to the development of this gifted storytellerand a person we might even call an
oral historian was his time at LincolnUniversity, where he was a student activist.
Here he would meet Brian Jackson aswell as Glen Kin, came in
nineteen sixty eight would become one ofthe founding members of the Original Last Poets.

(05:29):
It was at Lincoln University he wouldmeet the distinguished scholar Jason is Reading,
one of our pioneers in writing aboutand teaching African American literature. Gil
scott Heron writes about Jason is Readingin his book The Last Holiday, a
Memoir. Prior to coming to Warton, d C. Gil scott Heron would
receive a massage from John Hopkins University. This man, whose music would be

(05:51):
rooted in his love for the Blues, would be able to connect the campus
to the community. The purpose oftoday's program to trade guils journey during the
time he was in DC. Solisten to a few people who eat influenced.
So listen to their stories as theyshare their memories. In a small
way This program reassembles the pieces ofa man. More work needs to be

(06:15):
done in the life and work ofGilstalt. Karen Giovanni Roussonello is currently working
on a biography entitled First Minute ofa New Day, gil Scott Harron's Revolution,
that would be published by Metropolitan Books. Today we will have the opportunity
to listen to Alda Nielsen, KimJordan, Ruben Jackson, and Kenny Carroll
talk about gil Scott Harron. They'llspeak in that order. Alda Nielsen was

(06:41):
a student in gil Scott Harron's classesat Federal City College. He was the
first winner of the Larry Neil Awardfor Poetry. He currently serves as the
Kelly Professor of American Literature at PennState University. Kim Jordan, a gifted
artist, keyboardist, producer, composer, arranger, vocal coach and promoter,
was the musical director for gil ScottHeron until his death in twenty eleven.

(07:03):
Kim Jordan has over forty years ofexperience in the music industry. Ruben Jackson
is the artivist with the University ofthe District of Columbia's Felix Grant Jazz Archives.
He has published his poems in overfifty anthologies. His last collection of
poems was entitled Scattered Clouds and wasreleased in twenty nineteen. Nikow as a

(07:24):
writer and youth development specialists. Hereceived the White House Humanag's Award for Youth
Literacy work while director of DC Writer'sCourt. He's a foreign director of the
African American Writers Guild. His collectionof poems is entitled So what for the
White dude who said this ain't poetry? After our panelists make their eight to
ten minutes remarks, I will aska few questions. I've also encouraged the

(07:45):
palelace to interapret each other. Wewill also have time to hear from people
who might place questions in the chatbox. I believe there are a number
of friends of Guilt as well,maybe perhaps family members, who will be
joining us tonight, and so thisevening will open to them. Alvin,
we begin with you, Thanks Ethelbert, and thanks to everyone involved in organizing

(08:07):
this. I've got to say,first of all, it's always an honor
to be back at UDC, whichis my alma mater, even though I'm
not really there. I got oneof the very first diplomas that actually said
UDC on it because, of course, at the time when gil Scott Heren
was teaching there, and when mostof the time I was a student Federal
City College. Towards the end ofthe memoir that Ethelbert just mentioned the last

(08:28):
holiday, Gil Scott Heron is becomeseven more reflective than he'd been in the
rest of the book, and hesays something that's really interesting. He says
that he believed that he did hisbest work during the time that he was
teaching. And this probably comes asa real surprise to the vast majority of
the people reading that book, notjust for the substance of the comment,

(08:48):
but because most of them don't knowhe ever was a teacher at a university.
He came to this by a rathercircuitous route. As Ethelbert was pointing
out, he'd been a student atLincoln University. Many of you probably know
that he talked his dean into lettinghim take a leave from classes while still
living in the dorm to write anovel. I can imagine how most deans

(09:09):
would react to an undergraduate saying,Okay, I paid my fees, but
I want to stay here because I'mgoing to be writing a novel and I'm
not going to classes. He publishedthat novel when he was only nineteen years
old. Also, as Ethelbert mentioned, before he started teaching at Federal City
College, Gil Scott Heron earned amaster's degree at the writing workshops at Johns

(09:30):
Hopkins University. And this in itselfas a remarkable story because gil Scott Heron
never got that bachelor's degree at LincolnUniversity. He went to Baltimore, and
again you can find this story inthe memoir. He literally talked his way
into a graduate writing program despite nothaving a bachelor's degree. None of us
in his class knew any of thatat the time. We just knew that

(09:50):
he'd been over at Hopkins. Justbefore he started teaching at Federal City College,
having graduated from that master's program,he ran in to the writer Leslie
Lacy. I think it was oura train who was teaching creative writing a
Federal City College, and that washis entree with Leslie. Lacy explained to
him that there was this new liberalArts college, a land grant college with

(10:13):
no land, and that they werelooking for people. And this is how
gil Scott here and came to beteaching there. My side of the story
I had been drafted. I've beensent to upstate New York. I had
finished my draft service and come backto Washington, d C. I spent
about a year working and saving upsome money. I wanted to go back
to school. Federal City College bythen had gotten its accreditation, And when

(10:35):
I wanted to make my undergraduates todayfeel real bad, I tell them it
only cost eighty five dollars a semesterfull time. So that's where I went.
I had already published a couple ofpoems. In fact, this is
how I first came to no EthelbertMiller. So I had no sense that
I would needed to take any creatwriting from anybody. But when I went
to the course catalog and saw thename Gil Scott Hair, I'd BINGO.

(10:56):
I was in that class immediately andstayed there the rest of the time that
he was teaching. I've always Iwasn't of the first day of class.
I got to the assigned room.This wasn't an old World War two temporary
building down at Second and Eve.The building's not there anymore. Some of
the older people among us know thatwhen we left Mitch Snyder's homeless Shelter moved

(11:18):
in, which seemed somehow appropriate.It was a humanities place and then a
homeless shelter. But I got tothe room. There are only two people
in the room. One was avery attractive young lady, and there was
this tall, gangly guy who hadbraids mashed down run his head underneath one
of those World War One leather aviatorhelmet things. And he was wearing gloves

(11:39):
with no fingers in them, andhe was sitting there constantly shuffling through a
bunch of papers. I assumed hewas another student, and so of course
I sat next to the attractive younglady. After about ten minutes, I
was kind of wondering. I said, are we the only people in this
class? And the guy with thebraids, without looking up, even said,
I happen to know there are tenmore people in this class. And
that was gil Scott Harry. Thatwas my introduction to him. The other

(12:01):
students showed up at the next classmeeting. Things were a little, let's
just say informal at Becal City College. I don't think I ever saw a
printed syllabus the whole time I wasthere. The syllabut were usually chalked on
the board the first full day ofclass, when all eight of us were
there, Gil put a list ofbooks on the board that was going to
be our syllabus. Again, thisis before the kind of creative writing workshop

(12:24):
that now dominates MFA programs all thecountry had really taken hold. We did
not meet every day and just readour own works to each other. We
were reading other people's writing, analyzingit, trying to learn something from that.
And at this remove I can't rememberall the books that were on the
list, but what I do too, I do remember. One was John
Oliver killins as The Cotillion Wicked Satire, which had only recently published, and

(12:46):
I remember correctly. And John hawksnovel The Line Twig, which might surprise
people who don't know just how copiousGil scott Heron's reading was. He loved
popular culture, and he loved popularfiction, mystery stories and so forth.
But he had everything, you know, like a Mary Barca, and I
have to say, like me,if there wasn't anything else around, he
would read the labels on suit cansand so forth. It was just someone

(13:07):
who was always reading, always watchingfilms, always a tune to everything.
Now there was a little bit ofintimidation. You know, once I knew
who my teacher actually was, becausehere was someone who was not even I
think he was only one year olderthan me at the time. He had
already published two novels, a bookof poetry, and three record albums,

(13:28):
and this is my teacher. Itreminds me of my experience was with little
Stevie Wonder he was still a littleor first song he showed up on American
Bandstand playing Fingertips at age twelve,and my sister sort of looked at me,
like, where is your hit record? Yeah? So, but I
knew I had something to learn fromthis guy. I knew I wasn't just
there to sort of basket and knowingthis guy when what he says, he

(13:50):
did his best work. You haveto remember the albums that were released during
that time include Winner in America,which I still think is one of the
finest things he ever did, afirst minute of a new which is the
introduction of the Midnight Band as itwas called at the time, and from
South Carolina to South Africa. Ithink almost everyone would agree these. You
know, he did a lot ofgreat work with those were among the greatest

(14:11):
things he ever did. But atthe time, he really still thought of
himself primarily as a writer. Hehad it in his mind that he could
kind of be like Brian Wilson andthe Beach Boys, that he would continue
writing with Brian, and continue writinghis novels and poetry and so forth,
and the band would go out andplay all these songs. Well, of
course that wasn't going to work becausehis voice was so central to the music
that they were doing, and afterthe Living in the Bottle became an international

(14:35):
hit, that just wasn't going tohappen because the band was getting so many
gigs that he couldn't go on teaching. But while he didn't teach again,
this wasn't the typical workshop, butwe really learned to analyze writing in interesting
ways. I remember one day hedidn't usually talk about his own work that
much in class, but one dayhe came in and drew a schematic on

(14:56):
the chalkboard of the way he hadplotted what was on in his first novel,
The Vulture, which is it isa detective story, but it's so
much more than that. It's notjust a murder mystery. And to see
just how intricate this seemingly on thesurface, fairly straightforward. Mystery was was
really an eye opener. He wasreally dedicated to students. He wanted each
of us to do what it wasthat we were on a track to do.

(15:20):
So he wasn't trying to make uswrite like him at all. The
kind of poetry I write is veryunlike the kind of writing that gil Scott
hair intended write. It's more likemaybe Brocka. But he was interested in
helping me become the writer I wantedto be, not making me a clone
of him or anything like that.Suddenly there was an older guy in the
class who wasn't a regular student.He just wanted to write like Charles Chestnut,

(15:43):
and so he was meeting with Yeah, Charles Chesnut. So he was
meeting with gil Scott Harem. Therewas studying Chestnut's novels Agiven For those of
you who don't know, that's thewriter from the earliest part of the Towey
century. And he was like that. He was focused on each one of
us. I have a lot moreI could say, but I'll just mention
one thing about the kind of quickinsight he had. For my final short

(16:04):
story in the class, I wrotethis piece about a guy who well love
just put this way. The storyis called Freedman's Attack. Now again Gil's
out from DC. But he tookone look at that title and said,
oh, this is about a guywho has a heart attack at the hospital.
And I said, okay, yougot already, don't need to read
the story. And his brain wasjust quick like that all the time.

(16:26):
I'll say one last thing, youknow, I've visited him in his office
quite a bit and the phone willbe ringing constantly. Once Winner in America
became something of a hit and peoplewould always want to ask him about the
music. And he was very cleverabout this. He didn't want to spend
the next hour with someone that wasn'tin his class on the telephone, so
he said, well, you needto talk to Brian Jackson about that,
and then he would politely ring off. Anyway, my time's up there,

(16:48):
but we may come back to someother experiences now. And so thank you
very much. It's a pleasure tobe here. So it's good to see
you. Listen to you all.Then, thank you very much. Kim.
It's a Mayor Pratt to moderator EthelBird, to all my fellow panelists,
to all those from ipph Institute,and to all of you, thank
you for including me tonight in thecelebration of Gil's work. I have a

(17:15):
lifetime of stories, and we don'thave that kind of time, so we'll
just start with how I met Gil. I met Gil through one of my
dearest friends. Her name is DennisMarie. I was a student at Howard
University. She had a friend namedChris Williams, and Chris became my friend.
And one day Chris said that hehad a friend who was looking for

(17:37):
a keyboard player and was I interestedin playing on the mall? Well,
I thought he met at the mall, and I just wasn't sure which mall
he was talking about. But hereally met on the mall, I mean
Downtown DC on the mall, andI played that gig with him, and

(17:59):
that was That was our history.That was the beginning of the start with
me being able to play with Gilfor almost forty years. Oh did I
say that? I said that?Oh? Okay, Yeah, for like
forty years. Gil was not justmy friend. He was a mentor.
He taught me the basic foundation ofwhat the music industry looked like, what

(18:26):
music looked like, how music couldbe arranged to touch the soul and how
to use lyrical content to reach people. And if you really think about his
music, his music is just asrelevant today as it was even back then
when he recorded it. I amthe musician that I am because of Gil.

(18:48):
I mean Gil taught me in atwo hour set we could play six
songs because he was one of themost generous band leaders that I know of,
where he would give people time tojust create and to establish what they
wanted to say in that particular tune. I'm the producer today because we could

(19:12):
be any place in the world andGil will call me up and say,
hey, listen, I gotta godo something else you want. You want
my studio time and Abbey Rhodes studio. I don't know if you guys know
what that studio is, but thatAbbey Rhodes in London. You know that
happened a couple of times. I'mtelling you my whole life has been blessed

(19:33):
by Gil Scott Hearing. I amthe producer that I am because he would
give me that studio time. Iam the booking agent, the promoter,
and the anything else that has todo with anything in the music industry because
at some point in time Gil whatto say, and he always called me
miss lady, Miss lady, youtake here of this, And so I

(19:56):
had a lot of on the jobtraining with Gil. But I am who
I am today and I thank Godevery day that our past were able to
cross and that was a part andhas been a part of my destiny,
and I'm just very grateful about that. You want to ask me some questions

(20:18):
up the birth. Oh, herewe have the pictures that people are looking
at. Okay, okay, awesome, okay. Well, the first picture
with Gil and the crazy looking hat, we were on a tram in Japan,
I believe, and that may havebeen my second tour with him and

(20:41):
my first year with him. Myfirst world tour started in June, but
then we ended up going on atour in October of that same year,
and I think that that particular pictureis from that tour. Um. If
you look at the next picture,you can see me with the Howard sweatshirt
on and a crazy looking baseball.But we were on a tour bus and

(21:03):
of course Gil was giving us someGilli isms and some lessons that we probably
needed to learn. Next to thatpicture, we were in Los Angeles actually
where Stevie Wonder came to the show, and that's Ron Holloway. I cannot
remember the guy that is standing nextto me. I can't remember his name,

(21:26):
but I believe that he was gilstour manager, but that particular tour.
The picture beneath that is Gil andmyself and Astro, another band member,
and all the way over to theleft is Astro and I think that's
Richie Havens. You can't really seeit because it's kind of funny, Fuzzy

(21:47):
and myself and Gil. Again,I am the woman that I am musically
and otherwise because Gil Scott Heron solda lot into me. He sold a
lot into me, and I amforever changed and we're ever grateful for those
opportunities to spend that time with hisgenius. Thank you, Kim. I'll

(22:12):
ask you some questions later on.Yes, will be Ruben Jackson. It's
an honor to be here. Thankyou all, and it's it's I've been
thinking obviously about the subject about GiltScott Heron, and I wish those of
you in the audience could have heardthe I call it batting practice, the
lyrical batting practice, which took placebefore this program started is DC as you

(22:36):
know, double parking. But Iwas thinking about the ministers I knew growing
up. In arranging my comments.I always tell students the first poets I
heard were ministers and am DJs.Now how does this connect. It's that
skill with language, the soul andscience. As Quincy Jones would say,

(22:59):
what I'm trying to call these reflections, I took this. It's a song
type of like Gil Scott Heron calleda very precious time. Now. I
began trying to write poetry in tenthgrade nineteen seventy one, a student at
Western High School, which is nowDuke Ellington's School for the Arts. So
I'm looking around. I won't tellyou how I got, you know,

(23:22):
I head poems in the school newspaperand all that. But there's a stuff
in the books, you know,eight to eleven Dewey decimal number, A
fews with poetry, and there's what'sgoing on in the world. I knew
as a you know, a teenager, or as I say, a younger
version of myself. One of thepeople, of course I knew about from
records and also from books was GilScott Heron. And I'll tell you what

(23:47):
hit me early on. I usea quote from Lester Young, who total
a reporter in nineteen fifty nine.You've got to be original, man.
A lot of people, and I'mnot impugning them, were influenced by the
Black Arts movement. So you havea lot of declamatory writing, because you
know, we're knocking at the door, pushing at the door, trying to

(24:10):
get things to change. Gil ScottHeron could do that, but his range
was so wide, and as someoneinterested in a lot of things and wondering
how you can put this into anarrative, as people say, I really
drew a bead on his work,his recorded work. Again, you know

(24:30):
the poems on the page. Imean, anyone you've got like Whitey on
the Moon. You've got this beautifullove song the title to, you know,
from Winner in America, A veryprecious time. So there's the anger
and the frustration I felt even then. I am as Archie shep saxophonist one
said, I passed through this insipidpanorama of Americana was an enormous romanticism.

(24:55):
It has never left me. Well, Gil went there too, and he
had what you would call the rappers, used to call mad skills. Now
it's one thing to have ranged,it's another thing to sorry. I quote
people a lot. Another writer saidof this world, report you well and
truly, and I always felt whathe was saying, you know, whether

(25:19):
it's a beautiful work with Brian Jacksonagain, you know his work as well.
I can't say a poet without musicbecause poetry is music, is a
form of musical expression. And Iwas hooked or smitten as people used to
say back in the day. Andthe charisma, now, you know,

(25:41):
I used to ask Santa for thatkind of charisma and I never got it,
but just the way in which theword would come out. Thinking again
about people like Lusty Young, thesaxophonist Lusti Young, who could could essay,
you know, feelings through form,but it had this thing that just
get it in the heart, andsaid, you know, I'm signing a

(26:02):
long term lease on that which youknow I am. I am sharing with
you. Really, this is justan ode or an emotional homage to someone
who's work I never got over inthe best way. I had the privilege
of meeting him once again when Iwas a student at Western High School and

(26:23):
the Midnight Band played a concert.We had a very very very hip music
teacher named Charlotte Boston, and shesays, you know, she arranged for
this assembly and right on T Streetthere, you know, the band is
loading instruments into the side of thebuilding and they needed help. I'm thinking,
oh, man, I get toget this close to Gil Scott Heron.

(26:45):
They had some heavier equipment. Therewas a bass guitar case and I
grab it and Gil Scott Heron says, oh, no, brother, that
that can take care of itself.And I said, oh, you mean
like metaphysically, and he said,oh, this brother taking some kind of
religion class or I mean, youknow, like something like that. And
I'm all I could think was,you know, dear diary. Gil Scott

(27:06):
here and says something to me,someone whose work is tattooed into your heart,
and that I have tried in myown humble, sometimes awkward, flawed
way not to imitate him, becausewho could you know, just because I
have a Louisville slugger would not makeme really maze. But that commitment,
and as someone who was always tryingto figure out what it meant how one

(27:33):
could be a black man, it'shis range told me it was okay to
love, you know, poems againlike a song, like a very precious
time? Was there a touch ofspring in the air? And did she
have a ponytail? And you knowall that also, you know, beautiful
couplets like what you call from andmiscing. Ain't what my life's been missing.

(27:53):
You know, it's not either orit's part of this beautiful, beautiful
river. And I am. Iam eternally grateful. I am eternally grateful.
And I know that. You know, millions and millions of people,
to quote Duke Ellington, victims oftheir own good taste, are were and
are still moved by his wonderful artistry. They thank you. Rubn okay,

(28:21):
Kenny Carroll. All right, SoI'm going to read a little bit from
a presentation Avenue for Years that involvesGil Scott, but there's mostly presentation about
at the time the growth of thespoken word movement. People were calling in
and especially as to pertain two performancepoetry and hip hop and slams. So

(28:45):
this is just called Gil Scott Hearnand the priming of the hip hop ear
subtitle The Reluctant Godfather. It isnineteen seventy. I'm a ten year old
living in a relatively new public housingproject in Northeast DC. Doctor King has
been dead for two years, andwhat was destroyed in that paroxym of sadness

(29:07):
remains, like an earth sets ashrine to hopelessness. Only the liquor store
survived on the avenue. The warin Vietnam is raging. Black men are
returning home to my neighborhood of Montanaterrorists like opioid zombies. My uncle is
a freshman at Federal City College,or FCC as we called it. He

(29:30):
and his classmate or in my grandparents'basement at nineteen Kennedy practicing for a talent
show. A half dozen nieces andnephews are there practice audience. My uncle
Cliff begins, you will not beable to stay home, brother, And
so it begins for me, orbegins for us. The first minute of

(29:52):
later, Cliff plays the record,which sounds like someone recording in a nearly
empty warehouse. A new black poet, the album cover proclaims, before providing
a locust for the small talk.Less than a year later, I hear
this point again, but this timeit is not a poet, or this

(30:14):
is more than a point. Thistime the opening drums and baseline are funky
as spoiled cabbage in a DC summer. Something that's happened. And the poem
I heard in my grandmother's basement isa song now and it feels up our
sterial console. The two twelve inspeakers and cased in wood are blasting the

(30:37):
sound into the project courtyard. Andyes, it is being played on the
radio, and our doors open,and the screen doors no barrier to our
neighbors who come in our living roomto dance and find out the author of
this poetic group. The refrain tellsus that the revolution will not be televised,

(31:00):
and that is a good thing,since our TV was stolen doing the
riots. And while we have leftis a ten inch black and white with
an antenna with an aluminum four hat. I can't remember if it was Wol
or Wook, the two black radiostations that dominated DC in the sixties and

(31:22):
the seventies, but I do knowthat fifteen minutes after we heard it the
first time, it came on again. This time I was at the playground.
Someone had a handheld transistor radio smallerthan an iPhone plus, but still
it produced a circle of dancers andlisteners. And this is how gil Scot

(31:44):
harn and Brian Jackson primed our earsnearly a decade before something crossed from the
rubble of the South Bronx and dominatesthe world. What gil Scott does with
that song and with the Last Poetsalso did with Niggas Are Scared of Revolution,
also a nineteen seventy release. It'sprepared us not only for hip hop

(32:07):
music before, a kind of politics, a kind of reporting and reflection that
goes beyond the nightly news. Asgil Scott Harring used to call him,
Walter Concrete gil Scott Harring for thosewho continue listening to small Talk and the
whole of Pieces of a Man istalking about politics that prevents us from being

(32:31):
full for being our full and beautifulseals. It's mixed with a reminder of
our full and beautiful seals. Hereone of the progenitors of this future genre
lays the foundation that is rooted inLangston Hughes, Billie Holiday and Duke Ellington

(32:52):
and Jackson, Tennessee's own gil ScottHarring, we find a huge piece of
hip hop's DNA. So it's reallysome our need that a couple of decades
later, this progenitor brittels at thishonorific Gil Scott Harron's reluctant to stand as

(33:12):
godfather over this job is rooted inhis upbringing in Jackson, Tennessee, where
his grandmother is part of a communitythat retains its dignity against the indignities of
Jim Crow. Add the coincident iGil Scott hiding to the Bronx after the
death of his grandmother to be raisedby his college educated mother, and we

(33:35):
understand his objection to hip hop andhis message to the Messenger's song on the
Spirits album we hear him say,but I think young folks need to know
things don't go both ways. Youcan't talk respect on every other song or
every other day. What I'm speakingon now is the raps about the women
folks. On one song, She'syour African Queen, on the next,

(33:58):
She's a joke for Gil Sky andharn and Brian Jackson. Every gym produced
on those three Flying Dutchman albums weredone to speak to revolutionary esthetics that argues
for deliberation and freedom of black people, show that that the grooves of hip
hop in the lyrical dexterity was meaningless, or, as Gil Scot Hearing put

(34:20):
it on that same song, YoungRaptors, one more suggestion before I get
out of your way. But Iappreciate the respect you give to me and
what you got to say. I'msaying, protect your community and spread that
respect around. Tell them brothers andsisters, they got to calm that bullshit
down. Of course, we knowthe bullshit is the violence and destructive behavior

(34:42):
that haunts us. Still, itis probably easy to put Gil Scott Haring
into the cranky old uncle role,the old guy on the barbershop who assures
you that Jim Brown was the lastgreat NFL player. But as I thought
about this moment, to honor manwho has been so much to both my
politics and my writing, it isimportant to complicate those that make him the

(35:06):
godfather of hip hop while ignoring thefoundation esthetics of his music and lyrics.
It was a black arts philosopher andpoet Larry Neil would say there are no
esthetics without ethics. In fact,Larry Neils and science wham on gives us
more of an insight into part ofwhat gil Scott Harn was attempting to accomplish.

(35:27):
When Neil says We can learn moreabout what poetry is by listening to
the cadences and mouth and speeches thanfrom most Western poetics. Listen to James
brown Screen. Ask yourself, then, have you ever heard a Negro poet
sing like that? Of course not, because we have been tied to the
text like most white poets. Thekey is in the music. Our music

(35:51):
has always been far ahead of ourliterature. Unquote, or as gil Scott
Harron put in his memoir of TheLast Holiday, thank you Lear MIRACLEI for
sending me a copy. Gil Scotthern said, quote, people speak in
a certain key that's similar to amusical note. When you talk to people
naturally, it's comfortable because there's nostrain or stress on your vocal cords.

(36:16):
Sometimes, when people speak too fastor make vocabulary choices that don't mean true,
it occurs to me that something iswrong with what they are saying.
While gil Scott was talking about thediscording conversation with the would be publisher of
his first novel, Devulture, it'spowerful to note the importance of what he's

(36:39):
referring to as tuning into the publisher'smeaning instead of justice words. Later,
gil Scott says, I heard himhit a false note, a note that
shouldn't have existed in this conversation,something like an F flat. There is
no such note, not for me, musician, and not from one musician

(37:01):
to another, not from people playingthe same tune. Unquote, for Gil
Scott Heron, the Godfather. Toomany sample his work or claimed to have
emerged from his genius. There aretoo many F flats. The celebration of
black on black violence, the missogyneed, the glorification of destruction never set

(37:27):
well with Gil Scott Heron's, notwith his meaning of the words and the
music he bequeathed to lift us andto bring us to the first minutes of
a new day. Thank you,Thank you very much, Kenny Carroll.
I'm not going to ask him questions, Kenny, because he raised Ary Neil.
I think you're quoting, probably forthe essay and black Fire. Yes,

(37:50):
I was pulling from literated Thank you. What happens is that I like
everyone to rest the Blues influence onGil Scott time. You know, I
was talking about Jackson, Tennessee,you know, talking about Tennessee. We're
thinking about the Blues. But youknow, I always thought he was even
listening to book, he was groundingthe blues, and and Kim, I

(38:13):
know that you're playing with him andall that. I know that you've been
dealing with the black said and theblues is day. If everyone could just
address the blues as an influence onGil's life, I think that would be
a good place to begin. Reuben, you're shaking your head. Yes,
that's that's the Baptist deacon. Okay, Well, you know someone said the

(38:37):
blues is news that stays news,and and towards the end of his life,
Jimmy Hendrick said, all I'm doingis playing today's blues. And I
think I guess I'm speaking somewhat metaphorically, but my I'm not thinking so much
about musical structure, but looking athumanity and going back to something I tried

(39:00):
to say earlier, this broad andsubstantive celebration slash critique, as people like
to say now, of the worldof the changing same as a Mary Baracco
once said, And for me,first time I saw Gils done here and
he referred to himself on stage asa blusician, though of course people still

(39:21):
had pens. I'm writing that downlike the musician dear saying, I cannot
be a lusician, but it itis um again thinking about the Mary Baracco,
that powerful modley of experience which hebrought to the page, you know,
the stage and whack as we usedto say back then, you know.

(39:42):
And so for me that's it.But that notion that those stories again
the news that stays news, andhow how does that connect to with the
ongoing struggle. So you're combining thatwith this originality ever for too a few
minutes ago. So that's how that'show it resonates for me. I mean

(40:05):
that the notion of the Blues,you know, And it's not just as
you were saying, Kennedy. Youknow, sometimes we have these sound bite
assessments of artists and he the Bluesitself can be victim to that people saying,
well, yeah, it's like thisis about suffering, but it's also
about strength and perseverance. You know, there's a piece and I'll shut up

(40:28):
after this, but on Bridges,you know, it's it's ninety five South
and all the places we've been andI'm just thinking, oh my gosh,
what a beautiful evocation of our presence. Those are you know, Americans of
African descent, not in some hackneyedway, but that blues which stays news.

(40:52):
I'm dropping the probe metaphorical mic.Here give you you're playing with good
and as one and you talked abouthim as being a mentor. Did he
direct you? With you on yourown decide? Okay, let me explore
more about the blues. Yes,yes, and no. I'm Gill always
thought of himself as a bluesiologist.Yeah, and he would say that all

(41:17):
the time. One thing I doknow, as he would thing and as
he would write and as he wouldcompose the lyrical content of his songs,
the struggle was there, but Ialways saw the hope. Yeah. He
always left you with some kind ofhope, you know, and he always

(41:39):
showed you the truth and how badthat really was and how that affected us
collectively as well as individually. Butat the same time, I walked I
always walked away with even at theend of a song or at the end
of a concert, with some kindof encouragement, with some kind of hope
like don't give up. And soyeah, that that helped to shape who

(42:04):
I am and how my perspective asa composer as well as a musician,
Because you want people, that's whatmusic is to me, it's it's a
vehicle to cause people to and leavepeople better than they were before. Right,
And that's how I mean. Heshowed me that, But that's how

(42:28):
I try to live my life.And it's not just my musical self,
but I mean the totality of whoI am. I think that God puts
us on this planet to help otherpeople, and I think that Gil was
a conduit to help me to dowhat he did. He always wanted to
encourage you and lead you better offthan you were before you heard his music

(42:52):
or his fortry. Well, thenyou would you like to talk about the
Blues influence on Gil? Well Italked about them, was any day Ruben's
reminded me. It was a deaconin the basement, a silo Baptist who
told me not to be playing thatblue scale on that piano that I was
sitting next to. In some ways, comments Brian Jackson has made it interviews

(43:14):
have led people astray who don't knowthe whole body of Gil's work because when
he's when he's trying to talk aboutthe eventual split that happened, he mentions,
and this part is true, andyou can see it even in a
film like Black Wetsu. As theband got more and more improvisitory, uh,
you know, exploring the outer boundariesof the song structures and so forth
and so on. Brian says thatthe band was getting moving more in a

(43:35):
jazz direction and the Guil wanted tohave a blues band. And true enough,
you know, Gil wrote Watergate Blues, and he wrote Get Out of
the Ghetto Blues, the title ofwhich kind of underscores the what Kil's getting
out. But he didn't actually writevery many actual blues songs. It was
more matter what Rubin was getting outof as blues continuum of blues ethos that
underlaid everything he wrote, whether literaryor musical. And that was actually the

(44:00):
key, that soliloquy of bluesology thathe gave, which kept growing and growing
and growing until I got longer thanthe song that he was going to play.
He goes through all the different kindsof blues and he does it in
an ironic, funny way. Butwhat he's getting at is, you know,
blues doesn't really have boundaries. Soyeah, you know, he didn't.
He didn't really write very many bluespoems the way Langston Hughes did,

(44:22):
but that everything he wrote came outof that blue sensibility. Kenny. I
wondered you the comment on the boothalso, but I also want you to
talk about something which I see inyour work that I see also in Gilsburg
and I see in the Mary Barackpisp it you have, just like Gil
and people familiar with your wort,Kenny, you have this wit, you

(44:44):
know, and I think about yourMary and Barry poem for example. You
have this wit, you know,and I think about that. You know,
we talk about, you know,when we look at your humor plays
a key role in pulling people in, and just talk about how that humor
and it is risky at time becausesometimes it's like a dozen sometimes, but

(45:05):
talk about the humor and the bluesand you're working if it's a connection,
Gil Scott hand, Yeah, Imean, and you know, it's a
great having Kim Jordan here because asI was reading his memoir The Last Holiday,
and you know, all through thebook, I don't care if Gil
is writing about a great moment ofsadness or just being you know, loaning

(45:28):
on the road or hanging out withStevie. There's always just this moment when
there's gonna be a funny equip andthere's gonna be a story about something crazy
happening. You know, there's gonnabe gils Like you know, reviewing his
performances with Kim in the band throughoutDC, he was one of the funniest

(45:50):
ab liters in the world. Likea line would just come up. It
was almost like Grouching Mark. Youcould almost throw them a line from the
audience and he would flip that atyou know. Once I saw him up
at George Mason University, a kindof conservative student group had invited them up
and so when I got there beforethe show started, I said, yeah,
I'm surprised you up here with thesekids, these conservative Virginia kids,

(46:15):
And he said, man, Idon't hold nothing against them. I like
to hold a few of them hostage, but I don't have, you know,
but it's just that, And youknow, I think and you pointed
out a mirrable Roca. People whoknow, I mean ill didn't know this
And definitely Rubin one of the funniestdudes ever. And Gil Scott seemed to

(46:37):
be the same way that a closeto heartache was. Also there was humor,
and there was with and there wasa moment he describes, you know,
going up from kind of rescuing hismother when she was didn't die straight
at the point, and then youknow, in the middle of the rec
collection he has this like witticism,you know, just the way of looking

(46:59):
at things. And I think thatgoes kind of back to what Kim was
saying. There was always hope andlike no moment what lengths and say not
without laughter. There was no momentwhen we would just surrender to all harday
right, So everything was about liftingAnd the other aspect of it that I

(47:21):
found with Gil is a way thathumor attacks power, right, so guils
takedown a Ronald Reagan, which isthis amazing kind of humorous way that he
picks apart the whole Reagan administration andthat kind of conservative attack on America that

(47:44):
came in at the same time he'sdoing this tour to promote Dot King's birthday
as a holiday. It's essentially thereand such an important part of his work
because this comes up in he hada particular love for really old, really
bad jokes, yes, and oneof them had to do with the guy

(48:06):
who jumped off the Empire State Buildingand the people in the offices below had
their windows open as he as hefelt past, they could hear him going
so far, so good. Andthat's the title of one of his books.
Joy. If there's questions in thechat about I'll take some. But
my last question to everyone gets intothe sound of Gil, and I want

(48:30):
to maybe put them in a certaincontent. Are there other baritones that you
think of when you think of thesevoices? You know that are the other
voices that you say you know?When I hear that voice, I just
I just know who that is.It's like one of those blindfolds. Well,
actually, rather than the tonality ofhis voice, the Fender Rhodes piano.

(48:52):
Everything I hear that instrument, Ithink of his music, and there's
something similar in the tone of waswriting. I'll just leave that, you
know, I would say. Andbecause I've often asked questions like this,
not just about Gil Scott Heron,but up and like who reminds you of
so and so? Which I knowof? What is not your question?
But I have come to honor thishappens, I guess where as one gets

(49:15):
older too. And I am sothankful for that beautiful singularity. I mean,
I do think of people like tothink Greg Reporter, I love his
voice. I'm not. Yeah.I mean maybe you could say in that
tradition, but see going back toLester Young nineteen fifty nine, you've got

(49:36):
to be original, man, youknow. And this is not like better
or worse. It was and oneof the great things about if you want
to call it, the jazz tradition, and I think it relates to humanity,
as Jordan was saying, how weplay life, whether we are writers
or barbers. That singularity is isone of the things I believe which makes

(50:01):
our communion with others special. Andhere's someone who could sing, or if
you want to be colloquiald he couldsing. And I think it's Alten was
saying that beautiful piano, but isthe whole nine yards And I am one
of those brothers in the barbershop.I go more now, you know,

(50:22):
And I'm thinking I just kind ofshake my head and feel thankful that not
just because of the influence on myattempts at writing, but the sound um
what Patti Smith called the see ofpossibilities and what he contributed to that,
you know that which goes on.Kim. I want to ask you what

(50:44):
I asked you yesterday because it wasa funny response, but you know,
I asked you about rehearsals that youcould comment up. Yeah, you asked
me about rehearsals, and my responsewas one, rehearsals, you know.
But I mean when I first gig, I was handed a stack of albums.
They didn't have CDs or downloads then, but they had albums. And

(51:07):
I got about six or seven albumsand I said, okay, cool,
which songs to learn? And itwas pretty much learn all of them.
That was the reflect It was justto given, you know. But I
want to go back to the pointthat you were making about the whole baritone.
And that's not to give or takeaway anything from anybody else, but

(51:30):
there was such a sound that resonatedfrom this man, whether he was singing,
whether he could have been whispering,but for him to just say,
hey, how's everybody doing it?Would it just unleashed something. And I

(51:51):
watched it time and time again overaudiences of ten people or thousands. He
just had You can't the man wasin a category by him step and he
was just who he was. Andso there are so many other great artists
and we will give them their propsbecause they so deserve them. This man

(52:15):
was in a different category. Ibelieve that's why we're celebrating his work.
How can you deal a lot withyoung people? How often does the name
Gil Scott hearing come up among youngpeople today? Not much, not much.
It comes up among you know,kids we would call hip hop heads,

(52:35):
and it certainly was significant coming intothe late seventies and early eighties,
and especially once you get to youknow, more progressive sound in hip hop
groups like Public Enemy and ex planthere you begin to hear a lot of
sampling of Gil Scott. And even, like Kim was saying, just think

(52:59):
about how many times Gil Scott issampled for just the line introducing um the
bottle you know it was Juno Dollstrack. I mean, I've heard that
on so many hip hop albums.Just to be that powerful voice is why
people are sampling him and UM andI think it was. It was huge,

(53:23):
and back then a lot of youngpeople didn't know who he was and
didn't know the significance of the work. I don't know, I can't.
I can't speak for that now,but being the teacher, I would bring
in both Gil Scott music, andI'd bring in his lyrics and we study
those lyrics like we you know studyyou know, Shakespeare or any other great

(53:49):
writer. We studied the work andwe got into the lyrics. So,
I mean, my students knew,but I was back in the early two
thousands. How we we I wantto make sure that we include people.
Do we have anybody who wants tospeak? That's the that's a guess.
I don't have any information about.Yeah, I do have a couple of

(54:10):
questions from you, and the commentthat I think will that I'll make at
the very end that I think we'llgive you guys an understanding of how important
this session was and how important thediscussion was. So the two questions,
and I'll just put them out thereis one. The Revolution will not be

(54:31):
televised is arguably the most famous quoteof our generation. What is its meaning
today? That's one question? Andthen the second question is is there a
line from Scott Herron's work that impactsyou the most, that holds special significance

(54:53):
for you? So, okay,who would like? Yeah, Well,
I'll go to the order at thespeaker supposed to all them. Why don't
you do first? Well, Theycaught me a little off guard because I
tend to think his entire life justone line, and I'm thinking abou about
all the other questions. And we'vejust been listening to I had a graduate

(55:13):
student who was writing about gil Scotthere and a few years ago. Now
that graduate student is probably has latethirties. Today today, none of my
undergraduate students have any idea who thisman is. On the other hand,
the Revolution will not be televised isprobably the most quoted line from any black
musician ever, often quoted by peoplewho do not give credit to Gil Scott

(55:34):
Heron, sometimes quoted by people whodon't even know where it came from.
One of my colleagues at Penn State, now this is an older guy.
He had a chapter about he waswriting a book about the nineteenth century American
novel and one chapter what section ofthe book is titled the Novel will be
not the Revolution will not be novelized. No, no, no connection to
guil Scot here and whatsoever. Andwe see this kind of thing over and

(55:58):
over again. It's become one ofthose, you know, what we might
call a floating signifier that people justlatch onto and use it in all different
kinds of ways. On the oneend, that shows the incredible power of
Gil Scott Heron, because again hewas nineteen years old when he wrote that
that the revolution won't be televised doesn'tmean anything to my undergrass, so they
don't watch television anyway, right,And you know the cultural references and that

(56:19):
you need a Norton addition now totell you what Search for Tomorrow was and
all these other things, right,but it still works. People have like
an intuitive it's one of those linesthat, like an intuitive, you have
an intuitive sense of what it's gettingat. But for me, I wrote
a poem. I think it's aone of way books. The subtitle is
a prayer for Gil Scott Heron,and it's sort of looking, you know,
looking at his end and all thewonderful things that he did. And

(56:42):
every time I read that poem,I hear that voice. Now, to
get back to what we can sayabout the voice, He'll only had about
eight notes, and he had thathabit on of going, you know,
over and over, get on songafter song. But the grain of that
voice was absolutely distinct. You know, you couldn't mistake that sound for anybody
else. And it was a capacioussound. You know. No, he

(57:06):
couldn't hit those real high notes thatsome jazz singer might be able to hit,
but he knew how to work thenotes that he had and make room
within them, not only for everythingthat he wanted to communicate, but for
the audience. And that's the connectionI would make. I'm trying to answer
all the questions at once. Thatwould that's the connection I make to the
Fender Rhodes. You know, it'sthe same piano sound you hear at Donnie

(57:27):
Hathaway recording, but the way thatyou know, Gill's just playing chords,
but the way the chords worked withhis voice. There are videos out there
where you can see where it's justhim and the piano because he didn't have
a chance to get a band together. And probably this jokes about trying to
remember the chords and stuff. Youhear that sound and the intricate way it
worked together, and to me,you know, aside from the message itself,

(57:50):
that's that's what really lasts more thanthe reason I'm not coming up with
one particular line is he's got hundredsand hundreds of them, and they're also
brilliant. What's the one and thenhe wrote, meditate is the thing that
culturing piece. Yeah, any pageyou turn to it is work. You'd
find some stunning wine like that,right, that just contains everything better.

(58:12):
We think, Yeah, you know, we used to play. And this
speaks again to this whole encouragement thatI'm always reminded of when I think about
Gil's music. We would start asong off like the other side and then
let you go into homes the hatredis, but then go back into the

(58:35):
other side. So he was showingyou at there is another side to where
this mat is. And so thatagain for me, I just always feel
he never drops me. He mightdrop some information on me. Right at
the end of the day. He'sconstantly trying to pick me up, right,
you know, to tell me thatthat there's another way, there's a

(58:58):
there. It does get a lovelyday, I mean there's Yeah, he
just always encourages me. Actually,yeah, I'm not skirting the revolution question.
I am like that kind of crankymiddle aged guy who thinks terms like

(59:19):
revolution. Now you know, it'slike is that like a craft beer place
here or you know, people peoplecall resistance, people call resistance writing unacceptable
on their Facebook page. I knowthat I will die not seeing what I'd
like to see. But that's that'smy stuff, and I'll call doctor Phield
or somebody one of my favorite GiltScott heron lines. And there are about

(59:43):
a brazillion of them. But Ithink it brilliantly conveys the complexity of metaphorically
speaking music coming from our choir,the home team, you know, Black
People from the Summer forty two,which is on from South Brick of the
South Carolina is it's what you callreminiscing. Ain't what my life's been missing.

(01:00:06):
So for me, it's like whenpeople would say things like we're all
immigrants, and I'm like Broad inthat highway, Broad Highway. I mean,
it's it's definitely written couplet, butit's um, it's got legs.
You know, it's not just somethingof a period. And it once again

(01:00:28):
addresses, yes, something specific,but you know the complexity of our position
here, you know, and asmy father used to say sometimes and in
this here America. Yeah, Imean I feel the way all the fair
I just feel like there's so much, but I would I would talk about

(01:00:52):
a specific song. So in mypiece when I talk about hearing Gil Scott
and how the loose from ip televibesin regular rotation on black radio. And
then so I'm only terror eleven.So by the time I get to my
teens and I can buy Gil Scott'salbum. You know, all this stuff

(01:01:13):
was on Arista and his midnight band. And then at some point I go
back and I walk into store backin the days when of the record stories,
and I like, so the Piecesof a Man album, and I
took it home. And when thattrack hit Pieces of a Man, I
mean, I'm sitting there in myroom with the story on, bawling at

(01:01:36):
this story of this man who hadbeen destroyed. And the thing that I
love about that story is it doesn'tget into specific politics. It really gets
into the humanity of both the manwhose son, whose child you as soon

(01:01:57):
was watching him, and how hehas to try to hold it together and
camp right. And so that lastimage of someone sweeping up the ripped page
announcing that he's being laid off,it's just it was just amazing to me.
And that's the way his work couldbe. Like he really wrote songs

(01:02:22):
oftentimes like this amazing novelist. Righthe was setting that scene that was gonna
stay with you and like him wassaying one of my other favorite albums,
and I have more his Spirits,And I tell you why Spirits wasn't important.
So I had to cover him atCrampton Auditorium when the album came out,

(01:02:45):
and I just remember, you know, everybody goes on that hand,
gills looking bad, things not goingwell. First of all, the honesty
that's in Spirits, I don't knowwho would do that, right. And
then through at whatever he was dealingwith, there was still again that hope,

(01:03:05):
right, there was still that Ilove black people, I want us
to be better, I want peopleto be happy. And I just thought
he was dealing with that honesty ina way that most artists never get to,
especially when they're going through things intheir lives. You know, I'll
go back to something that all themsaying, and I don't wanted to pass.

(01:03:28):
And then you mentioned about how Gilwas nineteen when he was writing though
both but I look at the factthat when we talk about Gil and he's
a student at Lincoln, he's astudent activist. Okay, we look at
the age. We throw out theage because what happens the snick people members
they're at this age, they arechanging the world. Okay. The other

(01:03:49):
thing in terms of literature, whenwe look at the poems that we celebrate
of links and used, they werewritten when he was extremely young, so
that that needs to be noticed interms of you know, it wasn't at
but he's just like you know,some of the other actors that were changing
in this country. And then itgets back to the revolutions not to be
televised and has a lot to dowith how we teach the Black arts movement.

(01:04:10):
We teach the Black Oars movement asif it's a companion to like the
hollow renous songs, and we justoh, there's other black people writing poetry
right now. No, Black artsmovement was pretty much a revolutionary movement.
Okay, guys, you know it'sbeen different, watered down like some sort
of tang that for astronauts to drink. And what happens is that it's I
it's revolutionary literature. Yeah, arenot just black. And so what happens

(01:04:32):
is that when you look at andthis is why Guilt's worth, the revolutions
of each other becomes interesting. Weknow, if we get into seventy eighties,
that revolution that word begins appear incommercials to get your meeting, you
know, for the housewife, youknow. And and this has a lot

(01:04:53):
to do in terms of one whenwe look at the artists like Gil Scott
Heron, they release words and sayingsand songs okay that are used, but
sometimes even throwing back at it,okay, in different ways. And that's
why I was asking Kenny, Okay, how is Gil Scott Errands you looked
at today? What are people samling? Because what happens it is sampling.

(01:05:15):
Yeah, I could go back andsample, you know. I remember went
into the prison one time, AlfredMaryland, and I told them of the
guys, I said, you seeyou guys, you guys are Malcolm Little's.
You're not even Malcolm X yet youstill breaking the people's apartments. You
are Malcolm Little. You even talkedto Malcolm Mex. And then some of

(01:05:35):
you are not gonna sample Elsli GilShabas, right right, because some of
you are Malcolm. You guys arenot gonna celibate for a few years,
okay, like Malcolm. But whathappened? We pick the Malcolm that we
like, We pick the Gil thatwe like, right, Yeah, and
then what happens is that when weyou know, when we look at this
girl's whole life. I wrote himin the Blues because what happens, it's

(01:05:58):
joy and it's tragedy. Yeah,but what happens we have to accept all
of that, right, And that'sthe message when we say, Okay,
we're gonna look at the pieces ofa man. We want to put all
the pieces together, all the piecesof Malcolm X together. We want to
put all the key pieces of wantLuther Kingdom together. That's extremely important.
How does this tie the ipph becausewe know that put this city together.

(01:06:25):
We have a man who knows youone term. Right, Yeah, it
is difficult to put together because manypieces what we call a wards and that
right, I say that joking.Are there any other questions left, Jerry?
There are a couple points. Thereare a lot of fans. There
are a lot of admirers of GilScott Heron in this audience tonight, and

(01:06:47):
so I want to acknowledge them andacknowledge all of the comments that have gone
on over the last month or soin social media. And then I just
want to mention two people. PamelaBurnside, who is the wife of Jackson
Burnside, the late Bahamian artist whodesigned several of the covers for Scott Heron's

(01:07:10):
album, so it's great to haveher. And then Al Valentine, who
was Gil Scott Heron's roommate at LincolnUniversity. And I want to I want
to just quickly tell you guys,because I think the praise coming from this
will mean a great deal to allof you. And so from l Rackley,
two comments, excellent remarks. Allthanks the Paneless for re referencing the

(01:07:38):
lyrical book that Gil wrote. Youare right, Kenny. Gil loved humor
and fun. One of Gil's favoriteexpressions was enjoy yourself, because if you
don't, nobody will really enjoyable.Flag of a quick point. So and

(01:08:00):
I'll then mentioned that the Robert muggA documentary Black Wax, and how significant
that was. And you know,we only touched a little bit of this,
but Kim can talk about how significantGil Scott was overseas, especially in
Europe. But when I talked toRobert mugg about the documentary, I said,

(01:08:23):
so, why did you choose GilScott Heron? He said, I
didn't choose to do Gil Scott Heron. I was trying to get funding to
do a documentary on al Green,and he said, when I walked into
funder's office, the guy said whatabout him and was pointing to a Gil
Scott album, and he said,Hey, do a documentary on him and

(01:08:43):
come back and talk to me.And that's how it got sold. I
mean, you know, we couldtalk about how we loved Gil in DC,
but it just seemed to be likethis worldwide thing with Gil and people
everywhere he loved them. So Iremember hearing the song a racetrack in France
and saying, wow, this brotheris playing in France, you know,

(01:09:06):
you know, coming into the Arrasta, and then to find out he was
one of the first I believe it. He says in the book, the
first artist signed to Clyde Davis's newlabel, Arresta. I'm not sure if
that's correct, but that's what hesays in the book. Okay, So
I want to thank all the panelistsfor participating, and Mayor Pratt, I'll

(01:09:27):
give you the last word in termsof us carrying us away and thanking everyone.
Well, I really want to thankAlden and Ruben and Kim and Kenneth.
You guys have been tremendous and thankyou Ethel Bird for pulling it together.
It's been a really you know,warm and wonderful sort of stroll down
memory lane. And I really appreciateEthel Bird reminding everyone that we at the

(01:09:53):
University of the District of Columbia andwe in Washington, DC can claim Gil
Scott heron because I agree with Kimhe was in illegal his own Yeah,
you know, he just had anability to capture the glimpses of life and
a gift to highlight the ironies oflife. And it's in a way that

(01:10:16):
was engaging, you know that itwas pointing, and you can't teach that.
You either have that or you don'thave it, and he had it
and that's why we're still talking abouthim today because it just resonated. This
has been a rich and wonderful program. I'm so glad we have such a
wonderful audience, learn and others heretonight. So thank you, Ethe Burden,

(01:10:40):
thank all of you for this wonderfulcelebration of this really extraordinary manner.
Okay, thank you your final words, joining I share the sentiments of everyone.
It was a really wonderful program anda true examination of Gil Scott Heron's
genius. Thank you, Edelburton,all right, thank you,