The Washington DC Narrative and the Arts

Mayor Pratt discusses how popular culture/performing arts often establish “baked in” notions of “worthiness, competency—and how these notions often make appropriate demands, such as DC Statehood, uphill climbs. The two incredible expert guests are: Maria Manuela Goyanes and Nikki Giovanni.

Episode Transcript

(00:09):
This is IPPH on Air, broughtto you by the Institute of Politics,
Policy and History at the University ofthe District of Columbia and now your host,
former Washington d C Mayor Sharon Pratt. Hi. I'm Sharon Pratt,
host of IPH on Air IPPH.The Institute of Politics, Policy and History

(00:32):
housed on the campus of the Universityof the District of Columbia, with the
mission of rediscovering the history of Washington, DC while drilling down on touchstone issues
of the Dame and so today,what we look at is how do we
reframe the narrative around Washington, dC. How do we rebut maybe baked

(00:54):
in notions of who's competent and who'sworthy, particularly when coming to endure full
political enfranchisement in the political structure ofthe United States of America. We have
two perfect guests, both of whomare out of the box thinkers, agents
of change, particularly in the worldof performing arts and popular culture. We

(01:19):
have Nikki Giovanni almost could stop thereright. She's a teacher, she's an
activist, and she's a poet parexcellence. We also have Maria Manuela Guianis,
who is the artistic director of Zeltwenty eighteen with the very avant garde
Willie Mammoth Theater. We were luckyto recruit her from New York City,

(01:42):
where she played a major role withthe Public Theater of NYC. Welcome to
you both, Thank you. I'mglad to be here. This is Nikki.
I am so glad to be here. This is Maria. And just
to say, Nikki, I thinkyour poetry is amazing. You're on my
bedside table. Actually a good cryis just sitting right there with me throughout

(02:04):
this whole pandemic time. So I'mjust really honored to be here and thank
you for having me. Oh,thank you, thank you for that.
I want to Shannon, just takea moment to congratulate the Smithsonian, if
I may, on having the senseto hire Kevin Young to now be the
head of the African American Museum.I think that that is amen. I

(02:25):
think that's so wonderful, and I'mso glad for the African American Museum because
we normally say, oh, isn'tthat lucky for Kevin. Kevin is a
wonderful man. So no, it'snot lucky for Kevin, it's lucky for
you. Well, good, I'mglad you did that shout out. That's
great, Thank you, Nikki,And we're gonna be Nicki, Maria and

(02:46):
Sharon. And so today what wedo want to, as I said,
talk about, you know, howthey are baked in notions of who's competent,
who's worthy, How popular culture performingarts often establish these notions and perpetuate
these notions. But before we getinto the heart of that, I think
it's important to understand and for ourlistening audience to better appreciate how you became

(03:10):
who you are. So, Nikki, you are a poet. How you
realize you were going to pursue poetryat a very young age. I'm really
a day dreamer, and in allfairness, every day dreamer out there.
The art of poetry is loneliness.So I used to lie in my bed

(03:34):
at night. I shared a bedroomwith my sister, and my sister wanted
the bedroom that you wanted, thebed next to the wall. I don't.
I don't know to hear what's goingon with the adults, I guess,
but I was very lucky that Ihad the bed next to the window
and I could look out at thestars and I could daydream. I don't
I don't think. I don't thinkit was. Now that I'm seventy seven

(03:59):
years old, I realized that agreat part of my young life was unhappy
because my parents had an unhappy marriage. But I knew that I could not
allow their marriage to make me somethingI didn't want to be. And what
I wanted to be was loved andhappy. And I was very fortunate to
have a grandmother and I lived.I went to visit my grandmother and finally

(04:24):
asked her if becauld I live withher? And grandmothers always say yes,
and she said yes. She said. What she said was I don't have
to ask John Brown, but Ilive. That's her husband. I lived
long enough to know that John Brownhad nothing to say about what happened in
that house. He made up thedecision. And I think I was very

(04:44):
lucky because again I could take thephone the radio at night and turn on
w g in which nobody knows exceptpeople in Knoxville. And I was in
Knoxville, Tennessee, and I couldlisten all night to Ja and it's so,
it's so wonderful. And so yousay, how did I become whatever
it is that I am? Iam because of the love of my grandparents,

(05:09):
and watching them showed me what lovecould be. Because if I had
only watched my parents, I wouldhave thought love was crazy. Right,
Well, that's a blessing. Andit was your grandmother, I thought.
I read also your grandmother was alsothe one who sort of nurtured your activism.
Oh, my grandmother was very muchgrandmother and actually Rosa Parks were both

(05:33):
at Hindeman Settlement School. But grandmotherwas very She was just you have to
get things done, and she wasa big believer in doing that. And
all I wanted to do was whateverit would, whatever would please her.
So when they when they first atthe first march, or when the first
march, I'm sure, but themarch in Nashville, Tennessee, in support

(05:57):
of Montgomery, grandmothers stood up.I'll never forget that. Grandmother stood up
in Mount Zion Baptist Church and saidJohn Brown and I are too old to
march, but my granddaughter Nick ishere. That is great boy. We
gotta doubt she was the inspiration.Oh. I had to laugh, and

(06:20):
I still did. I said,Grandma's gonna get me killed. But the
question was who's gonna who would Irather die? Would I rather die because
of some crazy white person, orwould I rather die because I broke grandmother's
heart? So I was up thenext morning. I had my grits,
as we had grits every morning,and I was there to march because that's
all you could do. I couldn'ttake I could not let grandmother down.

(06:44):
That's a great story. We're goingto come back to your going to Virginia
Tech. But Maria, I wantto talk to you about have you well
Number one? Did you always knowor were you surprised to find that you
have a career in performing arts?Oh? My god, so rise.
And what I just so appreciate aboutthe framing of this podcast here and is
just the idea of art and activismand how do we actually express ourselves and

(07:10):
represent ourselves on stage, and howmuch the performing arts in particular helps frame
our conception of other people, inour conception of humanity. So I'm really
really excited to be here and havethat conversation my parents, just to speak
on Nikki's tip for a minute,like my parents are immigrants. My dad's
from Spain, my mom's to theDominican Republic. So I like to call

(07:31):
myself Spaninikan. I am a personwho is you know, first generation in
this country, and I sometimes feellike I'm living a parallel life, like
there is a life that I couldbe living where I basically like, you
know, I'm you know, financialsecurity is the most important thing, and
I am working in a bank,and I'm having kids, and I'm still

(07:51):
in Jamaica, Queens. And thefact that I get to actually pursue this
dream of mine to be able tomake theater, I sometimes I still pinch
myself. And to be able todo it in a place like Washington,
DC. Uh, it's just it'sa it's a dream come true. I'm
not a person who thought that Iwas going to be making plays since I

(08:11):
was three years old. I myparents, you know, are working class.
Um. My dad is a mechanicfor the for the bus buses,
the New York City buses, andmy mom was a kindergarten school teacher.
Um. And they for me andmy sister, was really about education and
making sure that we, um youknow, did our homework. And I
was a big reader. So similarto Nikki on the day dreaming, the

(08:37):
my imagination you know, was alwaysrunning away. Um for me and I
seeing people act out on stage,actually finally getting to do getting to go
to see a show and seeing sortof books live is basically what it felt
like like they were coming alive offof the pages onto onto the stage.
I thought, oh my gosh,this I could do this, I could

(09:00):
actually this could be something that isfor me. Um. But again like
I don't um it. I feellike sometimes the theater gets the stigma that
it's for folks as a luxury right, and that people who are really privileged
to go into the theater because youknow, they can afford to go into
the theater. And for me,that was just not the case. So
for me, I was just likeI have to I have to prove to

(09:24):
my parents that I can actually makea living in the theater. Um.
And because my dad wanted me toactually take the firefighter test in New York,
he said, they haven't you havea good pension, you could get
a salary, you know, don'tyou want to be a New York City
firefighter? And I was like,no, Dad, I want to make
theater. So so I feel IM I feel really grateful and honored and

(09:48):
lucky to be at a place likewill we Manage and to actually be able
to Now they're in a place wherethey're like, okay, okay, you
can, You're you. You showedus you can. You can make a
living in the theater where to stophounding you about it and being an activist.
I mean, if you come froma family that wants you to have
a reliable, kind of predictable sourceof income and future, how did you

(10:13):
become an activist? I love thatquestion because it is because of my family.
It is the fact that like I, you know, being American born,
I actually already had the sense ofentitlement of I was supposed to.
You know, these are the rightsthat I'm granted being in this country.
And when I saw the discrimination thatfor example, my mother had to deal

(10:37):
with or my father had to dealwith because of their heavy accents or whatever
it was, you know, goingto the supermarket or whatever it is,
I looked at that and I thoughtto myself, this is not okay,
this is just I felt angry aboutit. I felt frustrated about it,
and it felt to me like,you know, how could be you know,

(10:58):
they taught my parents talk about thiscountry in a way that it's like
they came here fleeing dictatorships from Francoin Spain and from through HEO in the
Dominican Republic. So they came herefor opportunity. And when I looked around
and I saw that they weren't beingtreated the way that I was treated,
I felt real, real rage aroundthat, and it made me say,
like, Okay, so I actuallyhave to use my platform those, you

(11:22):
know, to center folks who areunderrepresented, who are not actually being centered,
who need to be centered in ourworld. Okay, how about you,
Nikki? I want to ask you. You're definitely a activist, out
of the box thinker. What broughtyou to Virginia Tech. I don't think
of Virginia Tech in that genre,but obviously you've been there for a while

(11:48):
and they clearly love you, soI obviously just don't fully appreciate that they
are more open to that. It'sinteresting, but I was recruited Virginia Tech
and I thought it was time tomove on. My my father had had
a stroke and my mother called me. I was living in New York and

(12:09):
my mother called me, and Iknew that Mommy called me not because I
could do anything for Gus, whowas my father, but because she needed
a daughter, and I'm a bigfan of daughters. I think daughters.
I have a son and I lovehim very much, but daughters are really
precious. So when I heard Mommy'svoice, I knew I needed to go

(12:31):
home. So I packed up Tommyand my dog in my little volts wather
and went home and I lived withMommy. I stayed there. Gust died
finally and we buried. But thenMommy and I are living together, and
we lived together for almost twenty years, and uh, Virginia Fowler recruited me

(12:54):
to Virginia Tech. When I sawI had met her, and then I
saw the letter, and I thought. I went up stairs and I said,
I wrote a poem. They saidI married my mother, which is
pretty much where we were. AndI said to Mommy, you know,
we have an invitation to a placecalled Virginia Tech. Um what your thought?
Would you like to go? Andshe said, I'll go with you.
Wherever you want to go, I'llgo. And so we sold the

(13:16):
house consense you, Matta, andwe moved to Virginia. I do know
this, Sharon. If we wantintegration, then somebody has to integrate.
It's just that that's so I didn'tfeel like I was, you know,
making a sacrifice. But we can'tsay we want to get rid of segregation

(13:37):
unless somebody is willing to not segregate. So I came to Virginia Tech.
It's a mutual love. I havebeen very fine of Virginia Tech. I
am very comfortable here in Virginia.Virginia is, of course the state that
gives us way versus Row. Notwill excuse me, that gives us loving

(13:58):
versus Virginia, and loving versus Virginiais probably one of the most important things.
Because mister Loving realized he wanted tomarry missus Loving. He wanted to
marry her, and nobody minded himhaving sex with her, no mind,
nobody minded the children who are goingto come out. You can look all
around and sharing, you can lookat me and you and know that that

(14:20):
there's there's a there's their sex happeningbetween the races. But they didn't want
they did not want a marriage.They did not want to have to respect
those races. We know the ThomasJefferson who was a Virginia Uh, he
didn't. He didn't not only didn'twant to marry and Sally Hemmings had a

(14:43):
bunch of children, but he couldn'tmarry them. And so living in the
state, I've been I've been wantingour license plate to read you know,
you know, Loving Versity of Virginia. I think it should, but I'm
I'm not. I not you ina state that also were called the Peanuts

(15:05):
State. But you know, Virginiadon't have anything about peanuts. And George
Washington Carver had the peanuts and weknow that that some black child enslave bought
those peanuts over But I just youcan't want everything unless you're willing to give
something up. And my son wentto an integrated school, and I think

(15:28):
that he probably had as much troublememory as your child. You know,
children do that that people talk abouthim, and I reminded him, Thomas,
you know, there are people whodied and it wasn't for you to
go to school. It was tobreak this down. And you're doing You're
doing your part. Martin Luther Kinghad his head blown off, but you
are doing your part. Don't don'tever think that any of it is easy,

(15:50):
because there's in life that's easy.And I'm very proud of you that
you go to school every day andyou don't let those crackers get on your
nerves and thinking understand, because we'reall doing to have their share to make
a better world, make it abetter world. Yeah, and Maria,
you came to Woolly Mammoth now comingfrom New York City. I did.

(16:12):
I've been was born in DC andthey did most of my life, but
I did spend three years in NewYork and I know the difference. And
New York is definitely a much edgierspace than Washington, d C. And
then you were at the Public Theaterof NYC, the home of you know,

(16:34):
Hamilton, My Goodness, and nowto Woolly Mammoth, which has a
commitment to being edgy. But ithad to be a real culture shock to
come from New York to Washington.Is that a fair h Yeah? I
mean the yes. The thing that'sinteresting to me is that I feel like
the maybe I'm talking out a turnhere, but I'm just gonna I'm just

(16:57):
gonna say it. It seems tome like Washington of now is very different
from Washington as it was, andthat there are a lot of people here
who still think of Washington as itwas, and so me coming here,
I actually found it to be areally cosmopolitan. I don't drive. I
literally still don't drive. I'm aNew Yorker. I don't drive. I

(17:18):
live in a place in Washington,DC. I don't have to drive.
I walk everywhere. It is nota problem. I have a great time.
And so the fact that there isit's like so much food, Like
the rent is booming. There's likeit's such a foodie town. There's so
much to do. There's so manytheaters in this area. I actually I

(17:41):
have not you know, I am, and I have in the past sort
of felt like I would live nowhereelse but New York. And what I
have found that has been so eyeopening to me is that you do feel
like you're at the center of ithere in a way that I didn't feel
like I was at the center ofit in New York, particularly early in
this moment in our country, whereI can literally walk ten minutes and be

(18:03):
a Black Lives Matter PASA and doyou know stand in solidarity um with you
know, um my black brothers andsisters. It's like, I just basically
feel like it means something to showup here in a different way, and
that that feels exciting. I definitelyyou know, I wish there was take
out late at night. I wishthat things didn't close so early, you

(18:26):
know, I wish that there arecertain things that I even miss a little
like I like that the Metro's cleanerum, for sure, but there's there's
something about it that is that I'veI've really taken to and I don't frankly,
I like that I have more spacein my apartment. Well, you
know, we've matured, there's noquestion. I'm I'm at seventy six,

(18:48):
so I've lived here when we weretruly a sleepy southern town and we have
matured without a doubt. For along time, we had blue laws,
so you couldn't drink after a certainhours, you know, so that's one
of lord. Yeah, you justreally so you had nothing going on in
the evening. And I think StephenCarter in The Emperor of Ocean Park speaks

(19:14):
of how in Washington, you know, you if you wanted a restaurant,
it had to be seafood, asteakhouse. We've grown since that. No,
we've really matured since then. Sowe're delighted that Wily Mammoth's managed and
you had a hand in that.You've had a hand in that too,
a major, major hand in that, and it feels like it's just continuing
to grow. So so the factthat I was like, oh, the

(19:37):
only other place that I would wantto go beside New York is Washington,
you see, says a lot.No, we're flattered. So so in
the world world of performing arts,the world of theater, the world of
poetry, how do we begin toturn established assumptions on the here and now?

(20:03):
I know that's almost the mission ofWooly Mammoth, and I think I
guess it's also the public theater ofNew York City because you did host Hamilton,
which at the time sounded a jump, a leap, but obviously wasn't
so much of it. While itwas a leap, it's been transformative.
And then Nikki, with you,you started moving there. I guess with

(20:29):
in your thinking when with your firstmajor published word, black Feeling, black
talk, did you were driven tothat? I assume because of all the
turbulence of the sixties and you wantedto find a platform to express your thoughts,
your reflections around Is that correct?Well, I'm a Fish University graduate

(20:52):
and I'm pretty much incapable of holdinga job and so when I graduated the
next week, but what are yougoing to do? And I was fortunate
enough to get a scholarship through thegood officers of Louis Shoemaker to come to
University of Pennsylvania. UH. DoctorShoemaker who was passed now recognized, as

(21:12):
did other people. And she tookthem out to luncheon. She said,
you know, mister, you're goingto be recognized. You'll never be a
social worker. And I had recognizedthat also, She said, but Columbia
University is starting a program, andif you don't mind, I have enrolled
you in it. And it's alonger story which I want to carry you
through. But that's how I gotto That's how I got to New York

(21:33):
was through through Columbia. I wantto say this also, I'm one of
the people, and I'm not alonewho believes that Washington, d c.
Should be a state. At wouldI would like very man. I do.
I think it's important, and Ithink the only reason nobody wants it
to be a state is that we'dhave two black senators and other other officers.

(21:56):
I think that it's important that wemove ahead, and so I guess
I do think um outside of thebox. I've never lived in DC.
I busy DC, and I'm sorrythat I couldn't come to see Black Lives
Matter when it was on the sidewalkgoing up to the to the White House.
I think it should come back.I wish there was somewhere that we

(22:18):
could enter back just so I could, just so I could see it.
DC is the painting is still there, you can be, but you can
did Oh no, no, thepainting is still there. You can.
I just saw yesterday. I mean, yeah, the painting is still there,
but it's just it's a different kindof you know, the plaza has
sort of cut off a little bitfrom traffic, but but they're not the

(22:41):
same like merchants, and you know, not as many people are showing up.
But you can, you can definitelygo. I'm definitely then as soon
as the COVID ends up doing whateverit's going to do, I come over.
I just think that that I thinkthat we have to keep pushing it
and we have to remember that Washington, DC, as you know, Sharon

(23:03):
definitely was built by black people,was built by the enslaved, and it
was the the White House was wasthe architecture was designed by black people.
So I think that DC owes itself. It's it's it's the father. Black
people are the father of of DC. And I think that that DC needs

(23:27):
to continue fighting. I'd also liketo see Chicago be, by the way,
a city, because there's just nowhite people living in Chicago, any
of them way, and I wouldI would very much like to see to
see that become a city. It'sjust time that we changed the United States
because we're we're lagging behind, andthe cowards in the White House UH has

(23:51):
to be of course removed. Weknow that. And it's just time that
we called him what what it is. What is a song? Let's call
the song exactly what it is.Trump is a coward, and I think
that's time we call that. AndI think that Trump is treason us and
I'd like to know where his moneycomes from too. So there there's some
questions. No I had No,I'm not coming go ahead, Nick,

(24:14):
I'm sorry, No, No,I was just saying a few more black
senators would help a lot, right, So I would at least after they
would probably for certainly two Democrats,and at least one of them probably would
be black. Well, the thingof it that What was great about the
musical Hamilton that I loved was thesong the Room where It Happened, because

(24:36):
oh yeah, then Manuel Miranda's credit. They basically reaffirmed the reality that Madison
and Jefferson cut the deal with Hamiltonthat he could get the Southern States on
board with um having the new nationassumed the debt of the Revolutionary War,

(24:56):
the Lion's share, which was manhandled, you know, assumed by New
York and some of the northern states, and they needed the help in exchange,
had to have the capital and aslave trading community. And that's why
when there were thirty plus cities available, and the obvious choices would have been
Philadelphia, but it was much youknow, it was very much an abolitionist

(25:19):
spirit in Pennsylvania, then a lotof the Quakers, and then even New
York City the commercial center. No, they get chose which was nothing along
the banks of the Potomac, becauseit would be thumbs up to the institution
of slavery. And so our countrybegan with its contradiction and its evidence,

(25:42):
you know, in this capital ofover seven hundred thousand people, and so
yes, and then you have someonelike Senator Tom Cotton who recently said that
the district should never be a statebecause even though they're more people in the
district than they are in Wyoming,Wyoming, he said, looks more like

(26:08):
a state. Because can you believehe said that it looks more like a
state. No, they have peoplethat are you know, farmers and you
know, blue collar workers, butit looks more like a state. And
of course we know just you knowjust what he meant. So and so,

(26:30):
Maria, I mean, how doyou think, I mean, you
come from New York, how doyou think people see the district of Columbia.
I mean, you know, onething Ted Kennedy said to me is
that one reason you don't have atthat time or struggling for the home rule
in statehood. He said. Hisbrother used to say, it's the best
kept secret in the world. Peoplehave no idea that they have seven hundred

(26:53):
thousand taxpayers, seven hundred thousand peoplewho most of the taxpayers, who have
no real representation in the country.But how do you think most people see
us? Yeah, it's such aI mean I want to speak to Hamilton
for a second too, because Ijust think that the musical is revolutionary for

(27:15):
sure. Um literally and figuratively andalso um lin Manuel was just he's just
always so far ahead of his time. And I think that the thing that
he did was also reframe the conversationaround um you know, seeing black and
brown bodies as the founding fathers andsort of seeing that that actually there is

(27:36):
a there you know, um U, an encapsulation of the fact that like
those um that that these stories actuallylive here and cannot be quote unquote whitewashed.
So the thing, the thing thatI think about is a lot is
you know, I do think ofDC as kind of a secret in here.

(28:00):
Nobody who I talked to when Isay there's seven hundred thousand residents ever
thought that that was the case,um and didn't know that that um it
was still sort of taxation without representationsituation. I mean, I've been telling
it is sad to me that bybecoming a DC resident, I have basically
lost my representation in Congress. Thatis that that that feels like not a

(28:25):
good thing, and um and uh, I wish that wasn't the case.
I do think that there is areframing of the narrative of DC that needs
to happen, and part of itis this thing that I was pointing to
before is that I also feel likethe people here got to get hip to
the fact that DC is that,you know, actually wanting to broadcast to

(28:48):
the world everything that is happening andgoing on here. It all Also,
it does feel like it is umit feels still somewhat precarious or something like
that, where people think that likeit could, it could go away.
And maybe that's because maybe that's becauseit's not a state and so it doesn't
have all of those systems. Itjust feels like, you know, like

(29:10):
the things that happened with Mayor Bowserand her putting Black Lives Matter in front
of the White House. I meanthat was literally her saying like, this
is our city, this is ourcity. You got it. You you
cannot ignore this, no, Iknow more absolutely yeah, But but you
know we had for years or wehad so when you know, when I

(29:33):
grew up here, you had theonly real opportunity, especially for blacks,
was to work in the government andso and within the government there was this
hatchack, which meant that you justcouldn't get involved actively in any kind of
politics. And that was just ingrainedinto the psyche of people in Washington,

(29:55):
d C. And they just couldn'timagine you're doing anything other than keeping your
good government job. I can rememberwhen I came home and told my grandmother,
who I absolutely endored. I lostmy mother and she was very young,
but I came home and told mygrandmother said oh, And I called
her mom. I said, youknow, I'd just been made a vice
president, you know, at PEPCO. I'll be the first woman to be

(30:18):
a vice president of PEPCO. Andshe said, well, that's good,
said but what is your GS rating? And I mean she could not grasp
it unless I could translate that intoa GS rating. And so that mindset
so and so as a consequence,when we first got home rule, most

(30:41):
of the people who really seized themoment and took leadership positions were not people
who had grown up here. Theyvery often were people who had been activists
like Marion of Frank Smith, youknow, Dave Clark and others, a
lot of them with snick who Thosewere the ones who sees the moment and

(31:02):
people who grew up here. Now. You know, my former husband and
I always cared about it, alwayswere pushing for home rule and then statehood.
But it was very rare and soyes, people still and when I
was in office and push for statehood, I said, my god, I
can toss the molotof car I mean, I can lead the effort, But

(31:22):
do I have to toss the Molotovcartel also? And you know, do
I have to do everything? Andbecause it just wasn't that collective energy that
and you have to become indignant.You have to say, no, I'm
not taking this anymore like a network, I'm not taking it anymore. But
I don't know that that fully exists. But I'm talking too much? Are
you? You're the ones who shouldbe talking. But I agree with you.

(31:45):
I agree with you about that indignation. I agree with you about this
is why I care about making art. That is, you know, confronts
and challenges are expectations, right,And actually sort of is exhilarating in that
because you know, part of thisis about sort of imagining worlds that haven't
been imagined. Right. The factis is that your grandmother couldn't imagine a

(32:07):
world just like we couldn't not thatlong ago, imagine a black superhero,
right, And like, why whywas that the case? Why was that
the case? And so when you'retalking about popular culture, when you're talking
about the representations and stuff, thestereotypes that you see ultimately that happen on
TV and film, et cetera,are incredibly damaging and so to me,

(32:29):
part of my job, part ofis actually to expand the idea, expand
the definition of what it means tobe human and show that on stage so
people can see that complexity, thatuniqueness and imagine a world. Imagine dream
forward into a new new world wherewhere you know there is actually equity injustice
and liberation of all people. Well, do you do both of you see

(32:51):
that with the new generations? Soyou, Nikki, with students, do
they have that sort of spirit ofwanting to challenge the status quote because it's
playing itself out on the national stagewith the twenty twenty election to a great
extent. There you know, youhave a forty percent that solidly kind of

(33:12):
endorses U preserving the status quo,and then you have arguably sixty who represent
sort of a new way of thinking. That doesn't make you know, do
you see that kind of tension andeagerness among your students? What I see
and what you're calling the next generationsharing I see writers like Kwame Alexander who

(33:37):
are telling their story as she wonderful, wonderful young young women like Renee Watson
who is telling her story. AndRenee Watson is a big girl, and
she's writing about being a big girl. She's not writing about voting or anything
like. She's just writing about thisis who you are, and this is
who I am, and this isa story that I'm going to tell.

(33:58):
And I think that that's very important. I think probably one of the most
incredibly brilliant young writers in America,if not the world, right now is
Edwidge Dedicate, who is a Haitian. And I think that the United States
and I'll be glad when the Haitiansfinally decide we owe the Haitian something.
They were the first republic in theNew World. And I think, I

(34:21):
know we're talking to someone, SenorDominican, but I know that we need
to do a little better about theHaitians because it's time that we quit beating
up on them because we're jealous.So I think they're you're asking, do
I see that the kids are writingone kind of story? What I want
to see them right is their ownstory. They don't have to count on

(34:44):
people like me one of the mostbrilliant writers whom we just lost, Tony
Marson. They don't have to counton on Tony. What they have to
do is tell their story in theirway. And that's what that's what I
want to see and here, becausethere's some wonderful, wonderful, wonderful stories
out there that have to be done. Yeah, how about you, Maria?
Do you see that with playwrights andperformers coming to pitch there their activities

(35:10):
at Willie Mammoth. I do.But you know, the thing that I
feel like is happening in the theateris a little bit you know, it's
matching what's happening in the country.Really, and I said this with a
lot of respect to my colleagues.You know, it's not like those writers
didn't exist and those people didn't exist, right. So the fact is is
that gatekeepers, you know, UMand uh, major theaters are now getting

(35:35):
hip to the fact that like thesethere are there's insanely amazing talent in the
black and indigenous and people of colorpool and they are now and and now
you know, are are rushing tomake sure that they are representative of m
everybody who's coming up in all thosedifferent stories that you're talking about, Nikki.
So to me, part of thepart of the thing that's happening is

(35:59):
that the opportunities are changing. Butthat's and you know, my the cynical
view is it's changing because white folksare waking up to some stuff. And
that happens, you know, onlike clockwork. It always happens like a
certain number of years in and thequestion is whether or not this generation Z
will actually be able to sustain thatmomentum. And they are the people who,

(36:23):
the young people I talk to,know how to talk about anti racism
in a way that I didn't know. I certainly didn't know how to talk
about it when when I was younger. They know how to talk about their
identity, they know how to talkabout Consett culture, they know how to
talk about actually being able to um. You know, they know what they
want in a different kind of way, and that feels really really exciting to
be. Look at the march,look at the march. The you know

(36:45):
all those those kids at Parkland whodid that march, who Emma intalagence,
and those folks they're theater kids.They make theater together that's how they know
how to collectively organize and put thingstogether. The best organizers, the theater
people we put on shows. Youknow, there are young people who are
you know, Yeah, it's impressive. This is impressive, I think.

(37:09):
So I have a lot of faith. I have a lot of faith in
them. I do. I thinkit's very interesting. In my new book,
which is called Making Me Ring,I tried to write, by the
way, I tried to write anopera because I wrote this book during the
killing of Michael Brown and Ferguson.So I tried to write an opera about

(37:30):
the murder of Michael Ferguson. AndI've had more fun with it because my
musical since I can, I cannotsing, as you probably have heard,
and uh so I've got the sopranocoming, and you have murdered my son,
And I just think, wouldn't itbe wonderful if we can get a
good opera on the murder of someof these black men and women. It

(37:54):
depends on who you I'm sure thatthere's a good opera out there on the
murder of Brianna Taylor. But it'sjust fun to watch the young people deciding
what they want to do. AndI think you're right. I have no
no question that what's going on inPortland, Oregon is uh. It's it's

(38:14):
opera, it's theater, and atsome point fifty years from now, one
hundred years from now, it willbe an incredible, incredible opera because you've
got that, you've got the chorusthere and what you're looking for, and
you've got black lives limited. Soyou have your your your soprano and your
alto, and you're gonna have Idon't know who would be your your your

(38:36):
bass or your baritone, but Ido know the best or the most famous
American opera is poor Gian best,and there's there's no getting around that.
And everybody says, oh, lookat what what uh George Gershwin did.
All I know that he did wasgo down and steal our music, and

(38:57):
so he did. So we knowthat opera go together, and I would
love I won't be around in fiftyyears when they finally do it. But
I think you're right that it is. It is theater and they're doing an
incredible job. So you and theatershould be very very proud of yourself,
as we in poetry are very proudbecause we've given some of the words,

(39:20):
right, no you, oh yeah. So as we sort of close out
today, I'd like your thoughts aboutwhere, again, where you think we
are in our country. I knowthat we all of us cared deeply about
Washington, d c. Being respectedas a full participating member of the political

(39:43):
structure of our country by becoming thefifty first state. And there's a good
chance, I think that if we'relucky enough to have a sweep of the
with the presidency and the Senate,to go after that, because I think
if anything, by sort of forcinga decision contrary to what happened to with

(40:05):
Obama, with Merrick Garland, andthen you know, forcing a decision with
the Justice, you know that theremay be an energy to say, look,
we need to have full representation andat least the District, if not
the District and Puerto Rico should getbecome states. But that said, how

(40:31):
Maria do you see where we arein our country at this moment? I
ask earlier? Are we at aninflection point? And that inflection point maybe
was a preamble to it or aprecursor to what we're experiencing. Was evidence
even in the musical Hamilton that it'stime to see America in a different light.

(40:57):
Absolutely. I mean I you know, you asked on this podcast around
activism and to me, are anactivism go hand in hand. And the
thing that I think about is inthis moment we are we are learning a
new vocabulary. We are all learninga new vocabulary actually, and it is

(41:19):
one that is um you know,it saddens me that it had it's been
coming at the expense of people ofcolor, particularly black people, dying like
that is it is not just sad. It gives me deep remorse and regret
that frankly, you know, forme, it's like what have I been

(41:39):
doing? I got to do morehere, you know. And so I
do think that we are at aninflection point. I want it to be
an inflection point because what I seehappening is there's transformation happening, and it
is it is forced transformation, whichfrankly, I don't mind as long as
it's transformation. You saw that withfor Examp Bull to the Washington football team,

(42:00):
that change happened, right, howlong have they been fighting for that
change? A long time? Howlong have they been fighting for that change?
And now and now it finally happens, So I there is something occurring
that I want to harness that energy, you know, for my theater,
for our community here in DC,for the for the artistic landscape in our
country, but really for this localcommunity. Is you know, how how

(42:24):
can we actually um, you know, allow people to be there, you
know, allow their full humanity?How do we do that? How?
And And I'm I'm sort of prayingthat it continues this force transformation because it's
it's the right thing. Now,we'll hab to Nikki. Do you you
know we you and I lived throughthe sixties. Uh, And there was

(42:46):
a lot of energy and excitement then, and we made a few steps forward.
I guess some would say a lotof steps forward, but you know,
the institutional systemic issues that have plaguedour country stay with our country.
Do you see something more promising withwhat is going on now? I am

(43:12):
And I hate to say this becauseit sounds naive, but I'm hopeful because
I go back to I knew andwas a friend of Muhammad Ali, and
I remember when Muhammad Ali said,no Vietnamese ever called me a Nidia and
he refused to go to the floor. And now we're watching the athletes making
tremendous change their their power. They'remaking tremendous changes, and I'm very proud

(43:37):
of that. I'm liking to seeit has taken a while. I'm not
saying it won't, but I likewhat I see about the changes. I
am very proud of, as areall people of black lives matter. I'm
proud of what those women put together, and that the fact that they had
enough sense not to put together anoffice and a telephone or what is this

(43:59):
thing we're talking about, Pewter,that they actually know if I did that,
they blow up my office or theyblow us up. So they've they've
done the things that that they shoulddo. I'm very now of America making
the change. They may not likeit. We have gone through worse we
who are Black Americans. We havebeen enslaved, we have been segregated against.

(44:21):
There's a country and Western song thatsays, I've been treated, been
mistreated, When will I be loved? And uh, you know it's nothing
at the Everly Brothers because you're you'rekind of getting read. But I know
that song. I knew. Doyou know? We're just going forward.
We gave Sharon you and I gavethe youngsters a non segregated world. We

(44:46):
got rid of segregation, we cannotget rid of racism. Somebody else is
going to have to do that,the next generation. This is what the
kids are struggling with now. It'snot segregation, but racism, and they're
going to have to deal with Theyhave to have to decide are we cowards?
Are we cowardly and racist? Arewe gonna make are we going to

(45:07):
make a change? And I'm hopingfor the kids, and uh, I
share for them. And if not, I sit and drink Champaigne and watch
my fish bune. I've done whatI think and I know that's you know,
my generation can't judge the next generation. They're doing a good job,

(45:27):
I think, and I think thatthey're moving forward at their pace where they
want to go, as they wantto go. I think they're doing a
good job. No either two.It's uh, I can't remember the lines
exactly of clear Gibron, but usethese arrows are moving forward in ways we
could not imagine. And it's it'svery hopeful, but we also know of

(45:52):
all of us that change. Youknow, it's not easy on a lot
of people, and it's unse andwithout a doubt for a country that has
h had a very strong point ofview about who should have power, who
shouldn't have power. You know howwe dispense this, It's going to be

(46:13):
a struggle, and so a lotof that struggle is playing itself out in
you know, in the twenty election, and it's a little closer than I
think sometimes we want to believe.But I'm hopeful and as Jesse used to
say, keep hope alive. Soum ipph on air has really benefited from

(46:37):
your insights, your conversation you twohave been been terrific. I'm going to
close and by before I thank you, by reminding people that we do have
a Twitter platform at Politics Policy numberone, uh and then a Facebook and
Instagram platforms at Politics Policy History,so you can make comments, follow us

(47:01):
there, tell us what you thinkwe ought to be doing, Try to
be kind. We welcome it.Nikki Giovanni, what a pleasure, Maria
Manuela Guyanis what a pleasure. Thishas been a wonderful conversation. You both
have enriched our understanding of how performingarts popular culture can make such a big

(47:25):
difference in our lives, especially forall of us who care deeply about DC
statehood. Thank you and wonderful tohave you. You've been listening to IPPH
on Air, hosted by former Washington, DC Mayor Sharon Pratt. Ipp on
Air as a production of the Instituteof Politics, Policy and History at the

(47:45):
University of the District of Columbia.To reach us with comments or questions,
email us at info at ipp dotorg. Thanks for listening. You can
find more IPPH on Air programs likethis episode with Mariam Manduela Guianis and Nikki

(48:10):
Giovanni wherever you listen to podcasts,but please don't forget to rate and review
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