SP Show Update and doc review of 'American Nightmare'

A quick update from Status: Pending, and then Heather & Scott discuss the latest Netflix true crime release: "American Nightmare"

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Well, hello everybody. Scott here, and it has obviously been a while
since we released anything for Status Spending. This is a little bit of an
update and kind of a bonus termsof content for you. Heather and I
have been going back and forth latelybecause we'll both be at the True Crime
Podcast Festival in July for Status Spendingand some of the other shows that we

(00:21):
host, and we will be resurrectingsome format of Status Spending between now and
then and then from the summer on. So that's sort of the update that
we are coming back. The formin which we come back here on Status
Spending is still a little bit upin the air early days yet. But
we've been doing the show for I'velost track of how long, honestly,

(00:45):
at least five years, and we'vehad two different styles, two different formats
over that time. So this willprobably be a hybrid of the two or
something maybe new entirely different, butit will be sort of the third format,
the third version of Status Spending sincewe've been doing the show together.
But whatever it is, whatever itends up being, in the cases that
we cover mission will still be thesame, lesser known cases that don't get

(01:08):
the media attention that some of theother cases do focusing on cases that are
unresolved or unsolved or there are lingeringquestions, and so the mission will remain
the same and we'll be back shortly. That's sort of the update side.
Last week, Heather for her envnPatreon, asked me to come on and
do a doc review that we've doneover the years, this time on American

(01:32):
Nightmare, which is a new releaseon Netflix. Definitely give our usual disclaimer
first of all, that go watchit first, because it's going to be
nothing but spoilers and people talking afterthe episode. The other thing is here,
I'm only going to post maybe ahalf hour forty five minutes of our
conversation that was much longer, Andif you do find yourself wanting to hear

(01:53):
more of the conversation about American Nightmare, then you can go support Heather on
Patreon with the NVM. Search outNature versus Narcissism on Patreon. You'll be
able to find that and all theother content that she posts there. So
I don't want to take away fromthat, but I also wanted to sort
of use this as a you know, we're back and we're coming back as
an update and a little bit ofa bonus content for you. So hope

(02:15):
you enjoy Heather in my conversation sortof our analysis of the Netflix stock American
Nightmare, and we will be talkingsoon. Oh gosh, okay, So
then let's move forward a little bitthen, So obviously he tells the police
that him and his ex, youknow, they were talking for a minute,
but him and Denise decided they weregoing to work things out. He
was going to therapy, you know, he was in it for the long

(02:37):
haul with Denise whatever. So thatreally wasn't a point of contention for them
anymore. So the police were tryingto use that as a motive. It's
not said, but he cheated onDennise with Andrea. That's what I interpreted.
But then the way they made itsound that it was like an emotional
affair. I think he said asentence. I'm not sure if I wrote

(03:00):
it down or not. He sayssomething along the lines that first made me
think that this is more than that. You actually step back and logically think,
this is not your fiance, thisis not your spouse, this is
your girlfriend. You go to therapyfor having an emotional affair as a man,

(03:21):
no, no, they requited thatrelationship, is my opinion. That's
my interpretation of what was shown.It doesn't really matter because I guess at
the end it doesn't really matter atall. But there is this triangle and
that factors into the cops because theysee a love triangle and it's never it's

(03:42):
never what this guy said happened.For sure, it's you know, it's
every dayline episode you've ever seen,basically, So you've got the story being
totally beyond belief, the craziest truecrime story you've ever heard, and then
a triangle's career, and then you'vegot the little triangle true it made it
look so bad for him. Itreally did. Dude, you did it.

(04:04):
Yeah, that's anyone who sits hereafter watching those three episodes and really
goes after the cops or really says, you know, all along, or
let's reserve bullshit. I've got thoughtsfor the end of this about the cops.
Okay, but now I see whatyou're saying, because they didn't.
But yeah, if you're an investigatorthat approaches it with one exception that I

(04:28):
could bring out. I don't likethe way the FBI, the agent's supposed
a relationship with her aside, Idon't like the way they approached this case,
and I'll tell you why later.But you see, I mean these
are in Vallejo, which is decentsized jurisdiction. You see this all the
time whenever this happens, whenever there'sa missing girlfriend from the house at that

(04:51):
time of night, under those circumstances. But forget the story, just the
circumstances alone, and then you've gotthe ex girlfriend and they all work together.
Game set, match is done.You know. So I have a
hard time really going after the copshere because we get to sit there in
three episodes and consume the whole thing. They have all this training experience,

(05:14):
and they see these cases and it'sit's not what he said it was.
I mean, nobody. If youbrought it up to your fellow detective,
your partner, he would start tolike worry about you. I think,
like, should we pursue this?You know, is this what if he's
telling the truth, that's not theinteresting Your partner would be like, I

(05:35):
think he needs to be on deskduty. Thank yeah, exactly. I
mean I guess, like looking atit from that, I guess to looking
at it after seeing the third episode, I'm like more prone to be like
more protective of Aaron. But it'sjust like I don't know. I don't
know. The first episode, Iwas back and forth a lot on his

(05:55):
guilt. I was, I havevery un poltically correct opinions about the whole
thing. That's how we know Scott'sa back Yeah, that's right, right,
Oh man, shouldn't say it,but I will anyway anyway, go
ahead, No, you're good.So then obviously the parents are contacted.

(06:17):
The dad goes on TV to kindof, you know, plead, hey,
honey, you know, fight,use whatever, you know, get
out of that situation. It's sadusvideos ever it is it really isn't that.
I actually wanted to ask you aboutthat because you hear about this so
often, and it's like people willtruly judge the parents and the loved ones

(06:39):
the way that they express that onTV, and it's like there's no right
way to grieve, there's no rightway to talk to your missing child on
TV to try to reach out tothem, Like what the hell? I
think what it is is like Idon't know what to call it, but
it's like a sunrise effect where whenthe sun comes up, you see a

(07:00):
little bit of the sun, andthen you see a little bit more.
So when these cases get the mostattention is at the very beginning, and
then if there are no developments,that dies off. The media attention dies
off. So this cabinetive of informationthat we have is only three tiny pieces

(07:21):
of a whole thing that nobody understandsyet, including the cops. So what
we usually have is video, andit's usually TV news video. And I've
said this before. When you're infront of a camera, you don't behave
normally. When your daughter is missing, you don't behave normally. Anyway,
why are we coming to conclusions?It's just human nature, I know why.

(07:44):
But to come to a conclusion basedon these three tiny, tiny fragments
of information of here's where the copshave total reporters, here's her dad on
television, and maybe something else,and that's all that we have. You
can't analytic case like that. Butthat's when most of the analysis public we
have done, because after that,Nancy is on the next case, the

(08:07):
next girl that just went missing.Were we get three more fragments of information
And it's the way we in publicconsume these cases, and because we're human
beings and can't have that chasm,that unknown chasm, the gap of uncertainty,
then we decide he did it andwe move on with our lives.

(08:30):
You can't. You can do that, but it's not helping anybody, and
it's not it's not how you understandstuff like this. But it takes a
lot of being roll to figure thatout. I've been wrong a lot,
Oh really, I guess, kiddingexactly, but that's how we learn.
Like each people embarrassing public or privatestatement that you make that turns out to

(08:54):
be wrong is what teaches you thatlesson. I agree, it's just heartbreaking.
I don't know, Like, likeyou said, the whole normal way
to react, I just don't.There's there's no normal way, you know,
It's just no I hate. WhenI was watching the video in the

(09:15):
first episode, I was thinking,this is heartbreaking because of the circumstances.
Sorry about the dog circumstances. It'shis daughter, and my biggest thought was
she's never gonna see this. She'snever That's what my thought was. Wherever
she is, it's to be cameforul because she's not in a position to

(09:35):
escape right now. Turns out apparentlythat wasn't true either, But well,
and that's that's my That was myinitial thought when I saw it, too,
like how often those missing loved onesnever even see that? But is
that something that helps the parents orthe loved ones, like thinking that they're
connecting with them, like, oh, this will this will get them through
it? You know? Is thatlike in their brain you think? Or

(09:56):
is that just like what you werejust talking about, just one of those
tactics they used to try to getmore information out there about it. I
don't know. I think in thedad's case, in this case, he
wasn't. He didn't talk to thecops before that, at least not about
here's what you say in front ofthe camera. It seemed to me sometimes
they do say we want you tosay this X, Y, and Z.

(10:18):
But I think that was just hisincidentual reaction, and I don't blame
it. I would have a hardtime even arriving there, because that means
you're having to imagine there's something toescape from, like the details of what
she has to escape from. Butturns out she did see it, she

(10:39):
says, and she did escape ultimately, So I don't know. I can't.
I can't imagine. I really can'thave to. But you and I
both have talked to dozens of thesepeople who were in that guy's situation basically,
and I still don't feel like Ican say I understand that, Like

(11:00):
I can't empathize. I can sympathize, but I can't empathize with that.
Yeah, I don't know. Iwould never be able to deal with it.
I mean, obviously, if you'rein that situation, your fight or
flight response might kick in. ButI thinking about it right now on the
outside, I don't think i'd beable to handle it well. In fact,
if I had to bet, Iwould be a hermit crab. I

(11:20):
would not talk to anybody. Yeah, I guess, which is crazy to
think about for you, because youliterally talk for a living. I can't
imagine. Yep. Yeah, allright, So this one, this episode
kind of wraps up here in justa minute, but I just kind of
wanted to go through a little bitmore so. She was missing for about
thirty thirty one hours when they releasedan audio clip, and I believe they

(11:43):
sent it straight to the Chronicle.I think his name was Henry Lee.
I believe they sent him an audioclip with the subject line Denise Huskins,
and she basically, in very calmfashion, says, what her name is,
I'm kidnapped. Otherwise I'm fine.My first concert was blankwent eighty two

(12:05):
earlier today there was a plane crashI think she said in the Alps,
where one hundred and fifty eight peopledied. So we learn later why she
said those random things. But whenthat clip was taken to the police department,
they immediately called in her family andAaron like, hey, is this
her? Is this true? Andthey did corroborate that information, like yeah,

(12:26):
definitely, there was a plane crashtoday, so she is awake,
alive somewhere. Her first concert wasBlank twin eighty two. I know she
went with her friend. I thinkhe said her name was Bethany or something
like that. But yeah, thiswas like proof of life, which is
awesome. It's like holding up anewspaper in the seventies when you've been kidnapped
in South America. You know thisis proof of life. Yep. The

(12:52):
extent to which I did not believethe story was such where I thought it
was ai deep fake? Really why? That was my biggest thought, like,
somehow this involves planning on Aaron's part, but it was so well planned
that he had collected from voicemails orrecorded traubles or whatever. God you really
thought about this the I mean,if you don't need a whole lot anymore

(13:16):
to put that together in their software, that does it for you. So
if you can spit out in twentyfifteen years, not as much, not
nearly as much in twenty fifteen,that's true. Yeah, not nearly as
much. But that was maybe thefirst time when I thought, all right,

(13:37):
I still don't believe that story.But she's involved question mark, you
know, like what is And that'sexactly when as a well done doc would
That's when they dropped the gone girlon you, dude, And that's what
threw me because I was like,hold on, why does she sound so
calm, She doesn't sound anxious,she doesn't sound like she's being hell against

(14:00):
her will. It sounds like sheplanned this. And I was like,
Heather, don't do it, don'tdo it, don't do it, don't
victim shame. Something serious is goingon. I kept telling myself not to
and then I'm like, but wait, is Aaron involved too? Is he
like just being here in this momentto like really play out the story.
I was so confused and then theywere like, gone, girl, and
I'm like, oh, I lovethat movie and I looked it up and

(14:22):
wanted to watch it again, butI just I don't know it fucking wild.
Yeah, and that it was sentto the San Francisco Chronicle reporter,
not the police. Yes, Andfrom that point, it's like fork in
the road with three different paths youcan go. This is mister action my
aarin somehow, this is somebody whoactually took her, or this is like

(14:48):
a not a cry for attention,but this is a taunting basically, yeah,
of the cops, but you're notsinning it to the cops. So
on the one path of this isa real criminal. He's consuming media because
he's just like Zodiac. And Ithought of Zodiac quite a bit in this

(15:09):
case, mostly because of the supposedwetsuits but the costume, but it was
similar. Yeah, I that that'sthe first time that this thing is towards
the end of episode one where you'relike, all right, and that's why
I kept watching telling the truth.Yeah, I know that for a fact,
but yeah, yeah, I wasreally thrown and something that I thought

(15:35):
about in the very beginning when hewas describing a story anyway, like,
oh, they made her get ontop of me and tie me up.
I was thinking of the Vice Eliaransacker, that guy. Yeah, I
mean at the end when they findthis guy and he's he's the escalation is
not the same, but the sameescalation, just over a different period of

(15:56):
time where it starts with window peepingand elevates and the one thing this guy
never does is kill anybody. Butwe'll we'll get to it. Golden State
Killer's Worst. Yeah, it's thesame. It's the same thing. It's
the same progression. Well, andthen you know, as as part one
is ending and they're like throwing allthis information at you at once, she's

(16:18):
like, oh shit, she's alive. And then it's like, oh,
we've got video footage and there's aphone call from the dad saying, oh,
she's walking up to my door rightnow. It's like, what the
fuck is going on? You werenot kidnapped and this is insane. So
the end of the episode one,well she's alive, when her Lehoki is
pissed, big big man not happy, and it's what else that that reveal?

(16:42):
I mean, the reveal that she'salive alone, and then the second
episode is titled gone girl right well, and then the thing that got me
to at the end of episode one. After that, they did that press
conference or whatever, basically saying they'reno longer in contact with Denise nor her
family. They said that none ofthe statements have been substantiated, that Aaron

(17:03):
and Denise wasted valuable resources, andthat it was all an elaborate hoax.
There could be charges against them.And then Aaron's lawyers texted the detective saying
Aaron wants to talk to Denise,and his response was, we want to
talk to her too, And Iwas like, what kind of fucking shit
is happening? Well, that's where, honestly, I think I was too,

(17:25):
because there is no way the storyis true. They haven't heard her
story yet, they've heard his story, and so we have one impossible story.
We've got a girl who it turnsout, is alive and we don't
know what she's going to tell usyet, but whatever it is, it's
a criminal And now we're mad becausewe're not only embarrassed, but because it's

(17:47):
a national case right away and theylook like to investigate it as a homicide,
which they pretty much did right away, and then to have that be
proven with her on video and heralive. But that's annoying enough. But
then someone's lying to us, andI think you're both lying to us and

(18:10):
we'll haven't figured out how yet,but you've done this together somehow, or
she's done it to you or whateverit is. We're charging somebody. Yeah,
and it's like that's where I reallystarted struggling too, because I'm like,
man, either he's just really he'sa really fucking clever psychopath and he's
able to like really say his samestory over and over and over again because

(18:30):
he practiced so much, or it'sthe fucking truth and it just doesn't add
up. It just doesn't make sense. This is something that you just can't
believe, Like, how is thisreal? And then for him to be
like I want to talk to Denise, Well, why because you guys got
to get your story street or youjust didn't know what the fuck she was
doing. That's where my head was. That gets toward the end episode two,

(18:52):
I think, but the first ohshit for me was when she does
talk to me and her story isabout the same. So they're in this
together and there's no apparent motive.That's when it's like what yeh what?
And what kept coming back to mymind after that was how he mentions it

(19:15):
in part one, very briefly andit comes back later, but he said
something about the kidnappers, saying thiswas supposed to be Andrea. Yeah,
I was like, what is goingon here? What does Andrew have to
do with this? Well, it'sjust made up. When I saw that
earlier in episode one, when he'sfirst telling a story, I thought it
was narcissist. If I were tosit here for eight hours and make up

(19:36):
a story as to why my wifeis missing, she can't be the target.
Not my wife, my girlfriend,she can't be the target. But
it's all about me. I killedher under this theory, so it's it's
it can't be my fault. Itcan't be it's niece's fault. It has
to be Andrea's fault. So whenyou're making up the kidnapper story, Denise

(20:00):
isn't the victim. I'm not thevictim. I'm not the target. Andrea
is the target. That was Ithought it was narcissism on his part in
a made up story. Okay,when he first told it. That tracks
for me. Yeah, I didn'teven think about it on that level,
but yeah, that tracks. Iwas just so confused as to like,
what the fuck did Andrea do?What is this? And they never really

(20:22):
tell us Yeah, they're in alove triangle, but beyond that, yeah,
I never say why. So thenwe get to part two and Denise
finally gets to start telling her sideof the story, saying, you know,
they put blacked out goggles on her, through her in the trunk,
hands tied behind her back, shewas drugged. She's terrified. Obviously I
would be too. So it allsounds very like legit the way she's describing,

(20:45):
like how she was feeling. Butthere was something about the way she
was speaking, and I hate myselffor this, but I was like reading
into her demeanor so much that Iwas like, man, she is either
one thousand percent scarred from this orshe's a really good actor. And I
couldn't differentiate it at that point.I couldn't. I still kind of thought

(21:06):
in that moment that she was partof it, and I hate that so
a way, that I was watchinga TV show and that this case has
to be done. I don't knowwhat the end result is because I'm not
familiar with it, but this casehas to be eventuated. There were things
she said that made me think shewas a total psychopath what and there was

(21:27):
well that I did not buy fora minute. The you'll probably get into
it, but the second rape thereis pre made, pre ready wineglasses and
drinks. It's like, that's notAnd some of the things she chose to

(21:48):
focus on in coping with what happenedand in retelling the story. I think
what got me in hindsight is she'stold the story a lot. I mean,
she said to go through I'm suretherapy and come to terms with it
so she can live her life.But the way the things that she focused
on, which now are probably plantsthe strength for her. How I overcame

(22:14):
this. She appears on first watchto be the hero of her being raped,
which is not how sexual assault victimsrespond. But she's giving the sent
ofthe years later and after the endof the story. So but she's also
crying, I mean actual tears,and you can't judge plan her. You
can't judge that. But if she'son camera telling this story and there is

(22:37):
a result, I don't know inthis case yet and she's crying while telling
the story, it means she's stickingto the story. So either she was
prosecuted for it and she's sticking toit until the day she dies or something
else. Yeah, so there wasthere were things she the way she was
the onnch of the stories she focusedon. I still didn't believe it.

(23:02):
I still didn't believe it even getsa quote. I don't a thousand percent
know that we know what happened totally, but I will say the end of
the documentary, I think that's whathappened basically, and her story is basically,
Yeah, that's what happened, butwe're obviously not aware of that in

(23:26):
the story progression in the second episode. So yeah, no, I agree.
I agree to a point. Ithink that when she was telling her
story, obviously she's being interviewed afterthe fact, so I think that takes
a part in the way that she'ssharing the information. But I felt like
she was really genuine. Every timea certain trigger point happened, I saw

(23:51):
that emotion on her face, andshe, like I said, she could
have been a damn good actress atthis point in the story. I didn't
know, but I think looking backon it, No, I think that
that those were true points that reallygot to her and that really affected her.
Thinking back on it, the stuffthat sounded made up to me first
watch through was the wine glasses thingslike that. Also, this is apparently

(24:15):
like, if this is true,this is the most planned abduction I've ever
heard of. Yeah, and theguy doesn't think The first rape is ostensibly
because I need to rape you inorder so that you don't go to the
cops, because it's going to beon film and if you go to the
cops, I'm going to release iton the internet. So this abductor,

(24:40):
who supposedly is a part of aring of abductors who do this basically for
a job, is someone who hasthought of everything but that, like,
he has never thought that you're goingto let this woman go alive and oh
golly, what if she goes tothe police. Well, my thing is,
did he just are you thinking shemade that part of the story up

(25:02):
or do you think that like heactually said that to her and she believed
that that was his reasoning behind it. To rast watch through, I'm still
thinking until the end of her firstyou know, the first half basically the
second episode is when she's on cameratelling her story for the first time.
The entire time, through it andbeyond, I thought she was making it
up. Really I didn't, yestill did I see? Is every detail

(25:23):
that she put in to justify whatwould end up being evidence was then literally
washed away in some cases, likefor example, she claims to have been
raped but immediately takes a shower afterwards. Yeah, he let her, you
can take your goggles off all thetime now, right, And all of

(25:44):
a sudden she can take her gogglesoff when he's not in the room.
Yeah, And all of a sudden, he's using words like he's using phrases
like it's protocol. If is thateverything is protocol? There is no,
no, it's not. I foundthat's of odd too, But I didn't
think that it was her lying aboutthat. I felt like he was saying

(26:06):
this stuff to her because he wascuckoo bananas and he truly, in his
own mind thought that this was likeprotocol, this is my job, or
he was trying to trick her byusing these big words. I thought,
until basically the end of episode two, this story can't be real, can't
possibly be real. She was verydetailed in some of the stuff too,

(26:30):
like and and maybe that's a traumaresponse, like the way the floor felt,
the way it smelled in there,like different things like that. I
feel like that's got to be likea trauma response, Like you're you're taking
in all of these senses because youcan't see anything. Yeah, that's true,
it is, but it's also ifthis case has been prosecuted eventuated,

(26:52):
I don't know the answer yet.You've also had to tell that story to
county lawyers and how many cops andso, and she's filling The details that
she's filling in are convenient details,like we know she's gone for two days,
we know she's alive, we don'tknow anything else. So first time
watching through it, what's the differencebetween a traumatic response and a psychotic break?

(27:17):
Is what you're supposed to judge asyou're watching this episode, because it's
convincing, one hundred percent convincing.But what are we being convinced of?
You know it's behind that Well,the thing I found odd too, which
made me like stop and think again, like, oh shit, is this
fake? Because I was really believingher in her details and her reactions until
she said he sat on the bednext door saying this wasn't meant for you,

(27:41):
this was meant for Aaron's ex Andrea. Who's gonna say like an entire
sentence like that. I don't know. It just felt odd to me,
and I'm like, that's weird becausethat's exactly what Aaron said. That's why
we had the show together, isbecause you see things I don't. Because
I saw that as that's cooperative ofhim, Like that's the moon because Aaron

(28:02):
says the kidnapper says that during theYeah, she says, he says that
sitting on the bed next door atthe second lokation, Like did she not
hear it when she was being kidnappedor so, either this is like they've
read the same book that they wrotetogether a hundred times before launching this you
know scam or that that that wasextremely cooperative detail to me. So you

(28:26):
saw it as suspicious and I sawit as that's the most honest, cooperative
thing. She said. I justfound it suspicious because I was like,
it's weird that they would say theexact same thing. But is this the
same guy out of the two orthree or whoever who abducted her who said
it did she not hear it atthe house like Aaron did. Apparently,
like I just felt I found itweird. I felt like some details were

(28:48):
left out or some details were confusedon their stories. Their stories weren't matching
up anymore at that point, ishow I felt. Yeah, I don't
know, it was just the opposite. That's the moment where I was like,
that's that's what he said, that'swhat we have to explain. And
if this is a conspiracy, it'snot one or the other anymore. Yeah,

(29:10):
it's both of them. But howis it both of them use there's
no motive, there's no so yeah. And then and then he straight up
was like, oh, you know, after he does all this stuff to
her or whatever, and he's like, yeah, the plans to release you
within forty eight hours. And thenit's just so made up. That's from
every novel. Yeah, you meanthe plant is release. No, No,

(29:32):
it doesn't happen. Yeah, justso odd. I don't know.
And then I don't know why thismade me laugh, but she was like
yeah. And then I woke upafter, you know, I passed out
for a few hours. After that. I woke up to French pop music,
which I don't know. I likedit. It made me feel like
he was more of a human.I'm like, what, Like, I
get it, I get trauma response, I do, but like, I

(29:53):
still be freaking the fuck out.I don't care what kind of music is
playing. He's not more human tome. I guess that's what I took
that as is. This is nota super spy boogey man anymore. This
is a guy listening to music,doing district, doing dishes. Yeah,
he's like a human being. Okay, that's kind of it. I took
it, but I don't know ifI would have, Like, I don't
know if that would have been myfirst response, like in my head,

(30:15):
but of course I've never been inthat position. This is her first response,
though. Yeah, this is allyears and years and years of therapy
and talking to us. I mean, you don't think she thought that in
the moment or talked about it inthe moment. You think it's years later
she's like connecting it, like,oh, he was human. Of therapy
is to remove you from what youwere thinking in that moment and to find
yourself in a place where you cancope with what happened. So she's telling

(30:40):
a story removed. It's so emotionalobviously, Yeah, but you have to
remove yourself from that moment. Thereason your brain goes into shock, it's
you can't do that. You can'trelive that because you can't function as a
homo sapien anymore. True. Okay, all right, see this is why
we do this, Yeah, openingeyes. Then he comes back in and

(31:03):
says, we have a problem.We don't have any collateral to ensure that
you won't speak to police. Andthis is what you're talking about in the
beginning, one of us has tohave sex with you. Blah blah blah
blah. I'll be gentle like whatlike that freaks me out. I don't
know why. I don't know whatit is about that, Like the way
like you're gonna you're gonna fucking rapeher regardless. Why in the hell would

(31:26):
you line it up like that,Like you're just you're the nice guy about
it. What You're still evil tome. I kind of held onto that
and I put a pin in ituntil episode three when we learned that the
rape kit I think it's episode three. The rape kit proves sexual intercourse in
the last forty eight hours, butit doesn't prove any trauma. So she's

(31:47):
backfilling details. She's saying, I'llbe gentle, that's what he said,
because I have no evidence to sayhe was otherwise, and that still bothers
me. But again I believe her. Is it's a rape, is unconsensual,
doesn't have to be aggressive, doesn'thave to be traumatic. But there
is no evidence she was raped.There's no evidence that she had except her

(32:12):
own words, there's no evidence thatshe had you know, unrequited and intercourse
during those two days. So againI slipped back into we know she's gone
for two days. She's alive.Now we don't know where she was during
the two days, some boyfriend's house, is she god knows where? So
even at this point you're like,yep, yep, they planned it together

(32:34):
way beyond that point. I hadno idea how, but damn did not.
There's no way that story is true, I mean in my head by
this point, because at the endof part two, that's where they basically
say, hey, the rape kitcame back. It's corroborating our theory that
this is a gone girl hoax.Basically like, there's nothing there. So

(32:55):
I'm like, So at that point, I pause and I'm like, well,
fuck, I was believing her fora while. Now what now?
What do I do? So I'mlike going back and forth this whole freaking
time. I don't remember how theyend episodes. Do they end episode two
with him with the third guy?They end episode two with the dude sending

(33:15):
photos and details to the chronicle guyHenry Lee, saying, this is not
a hoax. Here's the room,here's if you Yeah, which is an
important thing too, because the chronicleguy now gets anonymous. More, apparently
the abductor is mad that the victimis not being believed. Yeah, which

(33:37):
is so weird to me. Neverhappens. Never happens. You've gotten away
with a forcibly home invasion, abducting. Let's assume it's true abducting. A
woman, had your way with her, let her go, and now you're
taunting, not taunting the police,but you're taunting. Yeah, send it
to the police and report on it. At least you're pissed that you're not

(34:01):
caught. Well, I don't knowif it's that or if it's like an
ego trip, a narcissism thing.Is it? No? I did all
of this. I want the creditfor it. Stop saying it's them.
They didn't plan this. I putall the work into it. Is it
like one of those things? Ithink looking back through all three episodes now,
in hindsight, he has a very. The eventual perpetrator who pleads guilty

(34:23):
to all these crimes is empathy isnot the right word. But he is
a very. What is the word? He's a very. It's not compassionate,
it's not empathy. But he hasopportunities throughout the rapes or the sexual
assaults that they think he tried tocommit where he doesn't. And he says,

(34:45):
I can't do this and I'll begentle, and I think he's I
don't know what it is. Ican't think of another offender like him off
the top of my head. Whereyou're I mean, Golden State Killer.
There is a comparison there. Butthis guy, the Golden State Killer called

(35:06):
his victims on anniversaries and said,remember the phone that we had over the
opposite. This guy is mad thathis victim is not being believed, which
I've never I don't think I've everheard of that. Like he reminds me
of and I don't know why Ican't think of his name right now it'll
come to me after we record,I'm sure. But the guy who would
literally cry after he assaulted someone Anneapolis, there was a weepy voice killed,

(35:32):
that's him. Yeah, that's whohe reminds me of the inn. That's
different because that that whatever that emotionis, didn't prevent him from committing the
crime in the first place. Hemay show remorse, this guy is he
isn't going to do it because heknows he'll feel remorseful, right, And

(35:55):
I think, I mean, we'rebasically in part three now, so I
think that a lot of that comesto his mental health, right, because
he was borderline or no, sorry, he was bipolar. And he also
he says he was. Yeah,he was also in the military. He's
like ex military. And they saidthat he had law X Marie, Yeah,

(36:20):
what was the thing that they saidthat he had from being in the
Marines? Like golf? There,here's the thing, because there is a
larger, smaller lesson in a largersmaller lesson, got it, oxymor It's
a bigger it's a bigger picture,but it's smaller to him in that we
don't take care of our vets.We don't. We just we don't but

(36:43):
wulf force syndrome does not turn intoa rapist. Nope, that is not
golf golf war syndrome. Golf forcesyndrome is PTSD. And there's a lot
there, But that doesn't explain evenclose to all of this guy. So
that's what HI wants to say,and I'm sure it's true. I don't
doubt bipolar, I don't doubt PTSD, but that does not explain what he

(37:07):
did. I don't know what itis. Like. We do learn some
more stuff about him and about hisactions in the years leading up to it,
and how other departments thought that hewas the guy but they couldn't pin
it on him, things like that, and it just makes me wonder if
he truly is bipolar. Was hegoing through manic episodes when these things occurred,
Like what was happening. I'm notsaying that's an excuse by far,

(37:30):
it's not, but is that somethingthat was happening? Well, obviously a
mentally healthy person doesn't do what hedid right, But to what extent did
his service contribute to his crimes?Is I guess my question there? And

(37:50):
he pleads guilty anyway, so there'sno trial, so there's no you know,
public discovery of a lot of thatthat his defense would bring up,
But no, it doesn't. PTSDin the military is very real and it
is a lot of things, butit's not a peeping top that turns into
a home invasion, you know,Navy seal type operation, abduction of a

(38:15):
woman and raping her and keeping hercaptive for two days. So am I
just ignorant with this? I thoughtthat there were multiple people in the beginning
when he was talking about oh theysay at the end, Aaron and Denise
say, we know there are others. That's what I thought. There is

(38:38):
as far as I can think,there's one piece of evidence, and that's
believing Denise's story one thousand percent.There's a point where she's informed that others
in the operation are coming yeah,and she hears there's a car. She's
sedated, but she hears a carcoming up, and she hears a conation

(39:00):
that might even be an argument,and then he goes into the bedroom and
informs her there's been it's been decided, is what she says. He said,
it's been decided that that first rapevideo was not good enough. This
needs to appear consensual, and sowe have to do it again, and
that's where the wine glasses come out, and they are supposed to appear to
be a couple that's simply having anaffair. There is no other evidence that

(39:23):
he didn't act alone. This isa unicorn crime, so good luck profiling
it. But Peeping Tom's serial rapistslike that don't have confederates. They operate
on their own, and that's partof the reason that they're able to operate
for so long. But I thisis one of those statements that will get

(39:49):
me in trouble. There are fewif we're to believe her one thousand percent,
And the voices she heard in theother room are not the television in
the radio that there were actually peoplewho came to the house who knew that
she was being raped and videotaped.There are few other bonds, like a

(40:12):
military marine bond like that. Ican see a circumstance where other people are
not involved in the abduction. There'sno evidence of that. But I can
see a circumstance where he has buddiesso to speak, who are aware that
I've got a girl back there,you know, and want to see basically

(40:37):
so parties after the fact. Sothis guy uses pluralatives like we, and
he says he's trying to make itseem larger than himself. Whether or not
that's true, but that's not uncommon. That's the job. In a Ramsey
Ransom note of foreign faction. Weare a group of you know whatever.

(41:00):
There's there's nothing to me that saysthere's anybody else involved in the actual abduction,
which made the which made sense tome because I just kept thinking about
the fact that if you're invading ahome and you're going after two people,

(41:21):
you're going to have to use somethingto help, right. So the sedation
that he used the niquill whatever,hey tie him up, blah blah blah,
kind of like the Ran Socker.I felt like it was just one
person the whole time, even throughto the end. It's just at the
very end, is there is it'sall wrapping up. They say, we
know there are others out there,and the cops aren't looking for them because

(41:42):
it's convenient for them not to lookfor them. I don't know that there
are direct, you know, firstparty accomplices to it. I don't think
there's any evidence of that, butothers could have been aware of what he
was doing. And partaken in say, can dare leave the crime? And
do you think this is a randomquestion that I literally just thought of.

(42:05):
But I hope this doesn't come offweird or mean or anything, but like,
do you think that it was backfill? When she said it sounded like
a Mustang and then it turns outto be a Mustang? Well, I
think she's just guessed right. It'sa muscle car, is what I think
I took away from that because youcan tell the difference, you can trunk,
You're gonna feel the difference. That'swhat I was thinking too. But

(42:27):
I was like, well, itturns out to be a Mustang, but
it's the most common muscle car probably, so yeah, I mean it could
have been backfilled. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I know. That's why
I said it was a random question. I just thought about that because I
was like me and she was reallygood, really spot on with that car.
Yeah, it's a ninety eight Mustake, ninety eight Mustle yeah. White.
Yeah. So when he gets caught, I just I don't know if

(42:52):
you want to explain like the wholeprocess of how they found him or whatever.
I felt like it was just alot of information that they probably will
just see in documentary, but Ithought it was pretty incredible by the Dublin detective