Web of Secrets | Interview with John Vines - Stories of the Supernatural

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
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(00:22):
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(00:44):
Noteworthy news about the paranormal world, true crime, conspiracy stories,
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a link. I want to thank you for being part

(01:06):
of my audience and I think you are all wonderful.
So how's everybody doing good? I hope. Well, hold on,
let me here, I am. How's everybody doing good? Everybody?
Thing is good here. Like I've said before, sometimes doll
is underrated dull. Sometimes it's not dull. Doll is good.

(01:30):
Doll is like everything is, you know, just flowing along,
you know, the rhythm I had. Let me see, Well, no, wait,
let me take that back. I did have. You know,
as you know, I have all my little dogs and everything,
and they're getting on in age. And I mentioned there's
a couple of shows back that as they keep getting older,

(01:51):
you realize you start doing this mental per if you
can say that that eventually they're going they have uh,
they're gonna be dying. And you know, I've had dogs
before that I've passed away and stuff like that, and uh,
but I have one of my little my little girls,
she's about thirteen. I noticed something that's going on with

(02:11):
one of her eyes, and bottom line, we don't know,
I don't know. She got stung by an insect. She
scratched her cornea. I bottom line she had we ended
up having to take out one of the eyes, that
one eye, And I was like, oh, and you know,
because they you know, that's nowadays they give you, you know,

(02:34):
all these options while you can do this, and you
can do that, and you can and I didn't even
know they have such a thing as a veterinary ophthalmologist.
And I said, no, she's thirteen, and you know she's
doing great. By the way, I already have another dog
that got attack that has missing one eyes. Like I
got two dogs with a missing eye pirate dogs. But yeah, uh,
that's why I'm saying a doll is underrated, because when

(02:55):
stuff like that comes along, and yeah, it's a reminder.
That's the bargain we made. As a matter of fact,
I think I mentioned this when I interviewed Damn, oh
my god, I can't remember last time she's an animal
communicator that we were talking about this, and I mentioned
after the show, how you know, that's something that we
kind of like tend to forget about when we have

(03:16):
pets and animals that chances are we're going to outlive them,
and even these smaller dogs, which usually have a longer
lifespan than the bigger dogs. Yeah, so it was the
only good thing out of this is that Devek called me.
You know, they took the they examined her before they
do the surgery. And then they called me up and
you know, they took a blotder. She goes, no, she's

(03:36):
in great shape. They were surprised she was thirty. She's
in great shape, even her joints, you know, because they
looked at her all over the place and she's a
fantastic shape. It's like, good, I guess, but she's gonna
be missing an eye, but yeah, that kind of deal.
So yes, as a matter of fact, where she's around here.
My girl, her name is Slim by the way, Slim
is around here somewhere. She's like a little Yorky Terrier

(03:58):
mix which I rescued from a guy was selling her
in a parking lot, which I don't think he was
the owner. I have a feeling, for lack of a
better word, he stole her from somewhere. He was a
really weird, unusual guy walking around a parking lot of
a supermarket. And the officer who was doing off duty
bare calls me up, you know, and he he said, hey,

(04:22):
you want to come over here. I think he's selling
the little dog. I was like, oh god, so I went.
Thirteen years later, Slim is here with me and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
So let's move on to something else. You know. I
always like to look at, you know, stuff that's going
on in the news, and you know, one of the

(04:43):
things I was looking at this time because I was like, no,
no more UFOs, you know, no more UFO stories. I'm
going to take a break from the UFO stories for
because it's like one week you get this and then
the other week you get that. So I said, you
know what, I'm going to look at one of my favorites,
which is the cold case. You know, we've talked about this,
how DNA is breaking all these cold cases that are

(05:08):
really really cold. Now the first story, Okay, then I'm
gonna and I've talked about this before on other shows,
how sometimes the challenge with some of these cold cases
is to actually identify who the victim is to begin with, Okay,
because from there you could go in a lot of

(05:29):
directions with this. But yeah, so anyway, this first one,
this is a if it ever populates, because I guess
my internet is acting really let me see, hold on,
let me see if I can get this. I don't know, No,

(05:50):
it's not okay, let me see if I'll see if
I can bring up the other one but I'll just
tell you about this one in the meantime. Anyway, hold on,
here we go. Let me say if I can get
this one hold on, which was as a matter of fact,

(06:13):
that one case has to one I had written about
before and they came up, and then this other one
was that they finally were able to id. Let me see. Okay,
come on, come on, computer, there we go. Hey, yeah, okay,

(06:35):
this is from Yesterda No. Two days ago. This is
what was known as Oak Grove Jane Doe. Okay, she
was exhumed. She was Oregon's oldest unidentified person case. All right. Now,
she was taken from the Willamette River nearly eighty years ago.

(06:57):
And what happened, and I find this happens when I
do research, is she was recovered parts remains. So she
was found in nineteen forty six, all right, and this
isn't a burlap bag in the Willamette River, Okay. And
then additional remains were found throughout the year near Willamette Falls,

(07:19):
and then the original side. I guess I don't know
if this was because she was her body she was
this membered, or if where she was thrown into the
river came apart. Now, the authorities at the time determined
that she remains belong to petit white woman, likely between
thirty and fifty years of age, and they determined the

(07:42):
cause of death to be blunt forced trauma to the head.
All right, oh yes, and I say, I take it back.
And the body was this membered after her death, which,
by the way, sometimes un leicster is blunt forged trauma.
They can't tell somebody shot, especially when they find just
skeletal remains. Sometimes they can't now this by drawing national attention,
the case stalls. Now, this is the interesting part. Her

(08:06):
remains went missing from law enforcement custody in the nineteen fifties.
They just realized, okay, where they had buried her remains
back in the nineteen fifties or maybe originally in nineteen
forty six, because I know that usually after they recover
a Jane or a John Doe and they don't get there,

(08:26):
they usually put them on a pauper's grave or something,
and somewhere somebody I guess found some type of like
an arrow, and that the remains were likely buried at
the Mountain View Cemetery in Oregon City. They were exhumed
right now they're going to go under for forensic testing.

(08:47):
And the reason why I bring this up is I've
done research on a lot of these cold cases, and
you'd be surprised how many times they can't find the
body after they've buried it, to exhuom it, to do
DNA now that it's available, or to do further DNA
all right, in other words, maybe they exzoomed that earlier

(09:08):
a few years back, but the DNA was like, no,
we can't. But now they've advanced so much with DNA
analysis that before what would never rendered any sample, now
they can. But this is very common that remember this
is a long time ago, the people that did it
are dead, and all of this is based paper based.

(09:29):
Sometimes the records are destroyed, they go missing, there's a
flood that comes along. You'd be surprised. And every once
in a while something like this happens where they actually
either find the box of evidence that they all of
sudden they discover it, or they find maybe a note
or something, or somebody kind of says, hey, the only
place they would have interred a Jane Doe would have

(09:50):
been over here. But bottom line, they founder now let's
go to my other case this I wrote about this
here in South Well, in South Florida, I was. I'm
not a South Florida now, but at one point I
was in South Florida. During the nineteen seventies, there was
a series of murders called the Canal Murders. All right,
they and the thing is that all these women were dumped.

(10:14):
But at that time, back in the nineteen seventies early eighties,
was on the edge of the Everglades between west of
Miami and on the edge of the Everglades. So there
they were called the Canal Murders, the Flat Tire murders.
They had a series. You know, there were some investigator
that said, no, this is the same person. Others were saying, no,
this is you know, a different person who's but it

(10:38):
was really weird because they were dumping the bodies real
close to an area called Well. Back back then there
was this little lonely outpost called Andy Town, which is
where hunters who would go out there. They had one
traffic light and they would go out there, you know,
when they were hunting, was a place to grab a
coffee or something. And this, as a matter of fact,

(10:59):
it was it started out back in nineteen forty seven,
all right, and by the seventy was at gasoline station.
But I've been out there even now. This was the
middle of nowhere. So anyway, this is back in Okay,
there was these two girls. This is in June. We're

(11:20):
talking here, okay, because this is yeah, nineteen seventy three. Okay,
this is nineteen seventy three. This girl right here, Nancy
Lee Fonts. She came from New York. All right, She's
found out there. A week later. There's two girls, they're
both fourteen, Barber Schreiber and Belinda Zetterauer. Okay, there found

(11:44):
the banks again of a canal out there. And by
the way, anybody as family with South Florida knows that
even on the edge of the Everglazer's a lot of
canals out there, and of course they use for drainage.
Only a few miles north of Andytown. They're discovered by
a group of people out there fishing. The good thing
was there is a good thing is that they had

(12:04):
not been dead that long. They were dead like a
day right now. What they had done is these girls
were telling their parents, Hey, we're going to spend the
night at each other's house. And in reality, what they
were doing was they were going around hitchhiking, going to parties. Now,
the last there was a teenager who gave a ride
in his motorbike. And when they're discovered, they had both

(12:29):
been killed with a forty five caliber firearm. And they
believed that because of the blood evidence that they had
been killed there on site, they weren't killed somewhere else
and dumped. Now again, they were middle school students all right. Now,
the policemen all over the place, they looked at all
the evidence, they couldn't find anything. In May of twenty

(12:51):
twenty five, just a few months ago, the Robert Sheriff's
Office Robert County being the county that they were killed in,
announced that they had solved this fifty year old double homicide. Right.
And what happened was they finally spoke to one of
their girl's classmates. And I don't understand why it took

(13:13):
so long for them to talk to her, honestly, I don't.
She tells the police. Yes, I saw them when they
were hitch hiking and they got into a van, a
white van with two men in it. They then asked
me if I wanted to go, and my dad had
told me, no, you can't. I don't want you to
go hitch hiking. And this is basically what saved her life,

(13:36):
all right, So she tells Robert Sheriff's office this. Finally
they had gotten in twenty twenty three, two years ago,
they were able to take some DNA from their clothing
and they matched it to a guy named Robert Clark Keebler.
He died in twenty nineteen, all right. And they also

(13:56):
found a partial profile of another male. This is why
they didn't announce it in twenty twenty three, and he
was a Keebler. Just so happens, a week after these
girls are killed, he is stopped by Broward Sheriff's office
because of a rotoraridy Indents incident. And guess what he's driving.
He's driving a white van, all right. And he had

(14:20):
a very lengthy criminal history which started like in nineteen seventies,
charges for armed robbery, sexual assault, aggravated assault, and weapons
they find recently. What they really confirmed was that the
second man was a name, a man named Lawrence Stein.
He died in two thousand and five. But like Keebler,

(14:42):
had a really long, lengthy criminal history, all right. So
bottom line they are, they're gonna come you know, the
jurisdictions are saying that they're going to compare to see
if any of the other murders, you know, they find
them linked to them or But the thing is this,
these guys were committing crimes not only in Florida, California, Arizona.

(15:07):
So I'm thinking, you know, you have to think, are
there any other cold cases that they're going to be
able to tie into these guys, you know, depending on
when they were there, that kind of deal. So yeah,
I wanted to fallow because you know, I always talk
about the advances of DNA number one to give the

(15:30):
victim of name because from there you can go extrapolate
who might be the perpetrator, all right, or in some
cases like this other one where they lost her altogether.
So yeah, the I think that it's it's super interesting
because unfortunately, you'd be surprised if anybody's gone onto the network.

(15:56):
There's a lot of remains that are never id'd or
even some there's some perpetrators that they don't even know
the name of their victims, so they don't even know
if who they did away with. So anyway, let's get
on to the good part, because there's my two cents
worth of interesting news in Cold Case World. Now our

(16:17):
guest today. This is the first time he's been here
on Stories of the Supernatural. His name is John Vines.
He grew up in the college town of Chapel Hill,
North Carolina. All Right, He's an avid traveler. He's explored
the fark corners of the United States and many countries
around the globe. He's the author of the fictional book
The World Is Angry, and I'm going to read you

(16:37):
a synopsis of it, and maybe this will help you
understand why. Also, I introduced the show today with the
Cold Case information. This, by the way, again quote This
is a synopsis from the book The World Is Angry.
Adam never expected Houston to be anything more than a
fresh start, a place to settle, to leave the past behind.
With Peter, shop By a detective, and Laura, whose effortless

(16:59):
charm keeps them both grounded, life feels steady. But when
a brutal murder in New Orleans catches their attention, everything changes.
The victim's body, carefully staged with a cryptic messages more
than just a crime scene. It's a statement, and it's
only the beginning, as more bodies appear, each arranged with
eerie precision, Adam, Peter, and Laura find themselves drawn deeper

(17:19):
into the mystery. What starts as curiosity turns into an obsession,
a desperate attempt to decode the killers twisted logic. But
as they unravel each clue, they begin to realize that
this isn't just a faceless murderer leaving a trail of bodies.
It's someone with a purpose, and someone who may be
watching them just as closely as they are watching him.

(17:40):
So help me. Welcome John to the show. How are
you doing today? John? There we go. How are you
doing today?

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Hi? Yeah, I'm doing great. I'm happy to be here
and talk about the book and just talk about Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I mean, I know your book is fictional, but unfortunately,
that scenario that you're painting there, like in the synopsis,
it's more than common unfortunately.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
Yeah, I mean, like you were saying before, you were
talking about all these cold cases, and yeah, when I
was doing the book and I was getting to the storyline,
I was intrigued by different murders that have happened that
I've read about in the past, And yeah, I just
wanted to capture that. I wanted to try to get
inside the mind of a killer and what motivates them,

(18:27):
what takes them to go across that line and do
things that are unspeakable that we wouldn't want to do,
you know, because the serial killer is kind of just
a different type of killer in our human history that
kind of like it scares all of us. We're scared
of that type of situation because it's something that we
feel like could happen to us. It could just happen

(18:48):
to a common person, just like you're describing these these
other murders.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
Yeah, these are just regular people that.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
Yeah, and they just got caught the wrong time, wrong
place and unfortunately. And when you were talking and it
was really interesting because I was thinking about, like, well, yeah,
if you identify these people, these cold cases, you would
then have to start to start and think about story
their lives, like what was their daily routines, Like what
were they doing on a daily basis to try to
because you're because you're right, the killers are dead.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
So yeah, that's another thing. It's like the longest.

Speaker 2 (19:19):
Because one there's two things. One did the killer know them? Likely?
Maybe not, Maybe it was just random and they were
just the wrong place, wrong time, And then you just
got to say, well, if that's the case, what was
their daily routine like in the day of the murder?
What was that like? Was it a big city, was
it a small town, what people would interact or you
would have to kind of comb through so many different

(19:40):
details if you could, because it's so far back, you know,
it's like seventy years back, and it's just like.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Right right that. Yeah. Sometimes even the people, like even
that first case that was from nineteen forty six, everybody
that was around is that's pushing up daisy somewhere. You
all detectives, office workers, family, you know, any person that
you can say, I want to talk to this person
and see what they're willing maybe now to talk about
that maybe back then they weren't. That's it. They're not

(20:06):
around anymore. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
But I remember when I was growing up, there was
a couple like there was in North Carolina back in
the nineties. There was this killer on the highways and
everyone was so scared because this guy was a sharp
shooter and he was killing people as they were driving.
You know, Wow, everyone was like petrofized. So what I
what I was trying to do with this story is like, first, well,
first I didn't even start off.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Okay, hold on, I'm gonna interrupt you real quick, and
I'm going to into these two guys right here. These
are the two men that ended up killing the girls. Wow, okay, now,
and the reason why I looked at this because you
just said that who were they? I don't understand. You
have to understand. Also, these were two fourteen year old girls,
like who would get into a van? He's not so bad,
the run of the right Lawrence, the blonde guy, Yeah,

(20:54):
he kind of looks. Okay, you should have seen them though,
what they look like now when they were aging. But
this guy right here, it's like, oh my god.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
You know he looks like Charles Manson.

Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, it's like, oh my god. But yeah, anyway, continue
with your story. What were you saying this far as yeah,
the shooter.

Speaker 2 (21:14):
I think with this novel, I wanted to create some
tension because I started off like having a character novel,
and I was like, oh my god, I can't go
anywhere with this. So I said, well, I need some tension.
Every story needs tenson. So I decided to go down
the whole serial killer because it's like that moment in
time like September eleventh. Everyone knows where they were when
that sure, of course, and when I had this incident

(21:35):
when I was growing up in this shooter, everyone knew
exactly when that happened. So I had to have situation
where someone does something horrific. And serial killers are ones
not too hide So these kind of cold cases are
interesting because some serial killers, I guess, want to hide
and run, but some of your kind of famous serial
killers are kind of they like to showcase themselves. So

(21:58):
I wanted to have a showcaser of a killer one
that one like you're saying, how do you get away
with things? You have DNA these days? But I wanted
this person to be like first serial killers. In my mind,
I was thinking they must be really smart because one
they getting away with murder multiple times and when people
get on the track of it, they still can't catch them.
So I was thinking serial killers can't be dumb people.

(22:20):
They're pretty smart and they think about every angle of
what they're doing. They're like chess players. That's how I
wanted to explore that, because I was thinking that's probably
how it would go. But the twist of my story too,
is the serial killer is killing people and he's doing
it in a way that's artistic and he wants the
world to see that he wants to he's based on
Greek mythology and he's basing on like artwork, and he

(22:43):
wants to kind of put his victims in this kind
of this kind of angle of art, if you will,
And this.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Like his fantasy though in his head, Yeah, it's his fantasy.

Speaker 2 (22:53):
That's kind of like that's his thing, and that's what
he became. That's how he became a killer because he
just felt, well, this is what I'm good at. And
a lot of times we do things that we're good at,
and sometimes maybe something's just good at something but it's
not what we decided society should be good. But you're
still going to do it right because one you have
to drop the morality. You go like, well I don't
have it remorse. I can just do these things. And

(23:15):
this story too is this killer is actually tied to
one of there's three protagonists, and he's tied to one
of the protagonists. Ah, so it's kind of like he's
doing this kind of tracking these murders as he gets
closer to Houston, because he has a motive to get
back at one of the people who harmed him in
his life, and one of the protagonists is kind of like, well,

(23:37):
I want to chase this person too, So it's kind
of that angle too. It's not just a serial killer
who he's doing awful things and he's got the whole
country like saying, oh my god, who's the next person,
where's his next victim? And how is he doing this?
Because he's doing this in ways that allows him to,
like you were saying, DNA captures people. But sometimes if

(23:58):
you just hide under society, you can get away with things.
I mean, I think it's harder because you've got cameras
in today's society, but you can try to like murder people.
And that's the thing. He's murdering people and doing it
without being seen.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
I think what's really hard for people sometimes to understand
is when a person murders another person who's a stranger.
Because you know, you have murders of love, revenge, hate,
you know you did me wrong in business, you know
there's a passion in other words, or a vengeance. But
when people look at you're killing a person you don't
even know. Sometimes, yeah, and it's and I believe also

(24:36):
that sometimes it's the most difficult ones to solve, which
is that stranger on stranger crime, because first of all,
you know, like I said, usually police look at okay,
if they know who the victim is, Okay, who was
around their boyfriend or you know, ex or neighbor or something.
But when it's not somebody that has any connection to

(24:57):
that victim, yeah, it's really hard. Even and I would
say now with even with DNA nowadays, which is obviously
has gotten really well. I think that for lack of
a better word, I'm not a serial killer, but I
imagine no victim, no crime if you can't find yea,
even though they've convicted lately some people in circumstantial evidence.

(25:18):
But still, like you said, if they're really smart, they
know how to go about it. That either the body's
not found or they put it someplace where the forensics
or DNA is so degradated that they can't they can't
do anything with it.

Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah. Yeah, in this case, he didn't want to hide himself,
but he was so confident that he could get away
with it. Still, you know, like I say, like he's
not going to leave fingerprints, he's not going to leave
any messiness. He's not going to leave a trail where
he is. He's a kind of trail list, if you will.
It's kind of like it'd be almost like if he
was a CIA secret agent that just kind of kind

(25:54):
of disappear. And that's the way in the book I
portrayed him and and what he did, this this scerial killer,
And I think what I was trying to do here
is like he was saying, like, if you don't know
anyone and you just do it, it's kind of like
you have the serial killer who who gets off. It's
almost like a high to them, so they can kill
someone that they don't know because that's they're high. That's

(26:16):
what gets them excited. That's just me thinking that could
be one scenario. But this serial killer's perspective, he wants
to study people, and he studies these victims and then
he justifies going like well I'm doing this because of
this or this of this, Like I explain why he
did what he did to the people he killed. Each

(26:39):
one has.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
A reason why they were chosen.

Speaker 2 (26:41):
In other words, yeah, why they were chosen. And that
was kind of him saying like, Okay, this is my
justification and I have control for me. Sometimes you do
things because you have control and you know if you
can get away with it, you will do it, and
you'll justify to yourself that I'm in control of the situation.
It's almost like odd, I can do it, I like,

(27:03):
and then I don't have a hard time dealing with that.
It's almost like they've get they got rid of all
the morals in their life though, because that's a line,
like what cross what causes someone across the line to
do that justification because a lot of times you you
don't want to hurt someone else because it feels bad
to hurt someone else, doesn't sure, and then killing someone

(27:23):
that would just be like that's like the ultimate hurting
someone exactly.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
But you go, you know, even back as far back
as I'm sure there was prior ones, but even Jack
the Ripper that was sending those notes or those letters
to the newspapers, uh that you know, taunting the police,
and they said that he was directing the letters were
to addressed to the police, but he was smart enough
to send it not to the newspaper but to a distributor.
In other words, he wanted, like you said, everybody to

(27:50):
know about him, even though the ones he was actually
taunting were the police. Yep, like that, Like you said,
it's that I I want to I don't want to
get competent. Same time, I want to show how smart
I am.

Speaker 2 (28:02):
Yeah, and then I mean one of the I was
reading this book. It was a serial killer in Chicago,
late eighteen hundreds at the Chicago World Fair, and it
was a book recent I can't remember. But this guy,
he was a doctor, but he was kind of a
guy that just took advantage of people.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
He was a con art he was.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
And he and unfortunately, being a conarist, he also had
like sexual desires when he did so he got sexually
excited when he killed the women. So I wanted to explore, like, Okay,
you have someone who's really smart. He's a con artist basically,
but he's a con artist slash serial killer because in
the process he gets what he wants from people, like

(28:48):
step up, and then he wants to get rid of
that because yeah, I benefited from you, and then I
get rid of you. And he had like an incinerator
in his like house where he get rid of the bodies.
He had all this kind of planned out, So that's
what I'm saying, these serracles are sometimes two three steps
ahead of any.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Kind of you know, some of them go to lengthy
plant you know. You hear about the ones that are
like the opportunist. You know, they'll see like like somebody
walking down a lonely road and go hey, you know,
or somebody like a let's say, a woman that her
car broke down on a lonely road and they're like
But then they're the other ones that what you're describing
that they go through all these this process of like

(29:26):
you said that fantasy, I gotta have things a certain
way that control angle. I think that a lot of
them have.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
But in this story too, I didn't want to be
too much creepy or creepish. So I didn't want him
to kill women because that's kind of the stereoty.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
I know, I know, I'm just saying.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
So I had him all kill men. Really, my partner
at the time, she's like, you're not having him like
kill women and like, and I was like, no, I
wanted it to be like, since he's a guy, I
wanted him to pick guys. And but ultimately one of
the protagonists is like he has a connection to the protagonist,

(30:06):
which is woman. There's three there's the two guys and
there's the woman. That he has a connection with the woman,
and that's the chase be changing.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
At the beginning, your protect none of your protagonists realize
the connection to him, right do they?

Speaker 2 (30:22):
He? Well, I mean she, I mean all the protagonists
have so, like I said, I like to have character
histories and character So each of the characters have a
past and they're trying to resolve that past. Okay, So
in Laura's case, she has a past that she hasn't
really truly really told everyone, but that past kind of
goes to that serial killer okay, and in her own

(30:47):
past with her own kind of situation with others that
could be that kind of tied to the story. And
then the other two characters, I mean, the narrators is
Adam and he's telling the story and they're all came
to Houston and they're just escaped their past. So we
learned about their past through the storytelling that set up.

(31:08):
So yeah, I mean, they don't know about it, but
it's kind of like it's.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
So they all have like closet that they've got going
on in their head.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
As far as you're thinking about things, and then on purpose,
I kind of wanted to explore I didn't reveal the
narrator's name, are the killer's name until further in the story, okay,
And you're you're trying to figure out what's going on here?
Who's I feel like I might be getting set up
for something, but it's going to surprise me. So I

(31:41):
try to play with that. And because you go first
person narrative, and then I was doing second person narrative
in some spots to make it more a little bit
who who is it? The serial killer? Because the serial
killer is telling his perspective.

Speaker 1 (31:55):
But then you've got the serial killer, oh wow.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
And I try to kind of like when you read it,
it's in like italicized print, okay, saying, well, these are
the thoughts of the serial killer and what he's doing
at certain situations. So I was trying that technique.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
If you will, Okay. So in other words, it's not
just strictly from them and maybe all the police found this.
You're you're getting information from the serial killer as to
how they look at the situation or what motivates him.

Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, because I mean, everyone I think wants to tell
their story to the world, it's just family or just friends,
and this is him attempting to say like, well, this
is what I did, and this is what I'm trying
to do, and this is how I found it because
it's like I wanted to progress like the serial killer.
Probably he had a normal.

Speaker 1 (32:46):
Life and I was about to ask you did do
you ever talk about why he ended up being or
doing what he did?

Speaker 2 (32:52):
I have a story. I have that part of the
story about how he came to be who he came
to be, okay, and what drives him down that path.
So yeah, it's he's on the trip and he just
kind of realizes it's kind of like we have moments
in our life where we have to make decisions. I
call them oh ship moments, like oh ship one everybody,

(33:18):
And he has that moment where he's just lost and
then he says, well, what am I going to do
with my life? And then he starts exploring that, and yeah,
it just leads him to go like, oh, this is
what I have to do. And then he has a
situation where he's being kind of victimized, but he realizes

(33:40):
that he's more powerful than the person who's victimized him. Okay,
So then he gets kind of that rush, if you will.

Speaker 1 (33:50):
It's another word, he goes from victim to victimizer.

Speaker 2 (33:53):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I was just I was trying
to explore that, like because yeah, you I want to.
I mean for me, it's like motive, Like what's motive?
I'm always thinking about motive, what causes someone to do
what they're going to do, and then cross that ulternate
line if it's something that's outside our society norms, Right,

(34:13):
what's let's do?

Speaker 1 (34:15):
That's that's it murder, Like that is what society's biggest
taboo among you know, that's at the top of the list.

Speaker 2 (34:21):
Yeah, so that's kind of the That was the story arc,
if you will, And then everyone who's kind of read it,
they're surprised about, like, well, the ending, what happens in
the end because these two the protagonists and the killer
are chasing each other. Okay, you don't really one doesn't
realize that they're being chased into a certain point, and

(34:44):
then it's clearly when they know they're actually kind of
encountering or close to encounter each other.

Speaker 1 (34:50):
So so let me ask you when that character, the
one that that has that connection to the killer is
it Is it in aha moment or is it like
a a trail of crumbs that eventually they realize, wow,
wait a minute, this is connected to this person. How
does that character was?

Speaker 2 (35:10):
Yeah, I mean it's she's with one of the protagonists
and she has she comes out with that whole background saying,
because I said, everyone has kind of a history to
them that they have rightly disclosed. So she comes to that.
But also another one of the protagonists is being told
by the killer, the serial killer, and that person's like, what,

(35:34):
no way, that's not happening, and blah blah blah. So
it's kind of like it's finding out from like the
killer's perspective. And then also she's telling one of the
others about her own background and how she.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
Can, okay, do one of the other characters are the
ones that kind of point her like, oh after she
talks about it, or is she by herself, does she
start realizing, wait a minute, I have some type of
connection to this.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
Well, she knows it's she knows it's she knows who
the killer is. She does, but she doesn't, and she
discloses that she knows the killer, but she doesn't really
go into details about what her relationship I understand.

Speaker 1 (36:21):
So she's like a little bit of denial kind of deal.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, she's just given, like you said, could be back frum.
She's given a little bit saying like well, yeah, this
guy blah blah blah, and then right, more details later
as the story is being told. That's the thing is
storytelling is like, yeahline, you're going from A to B.
You have to kind of take your time from going

(36:44):
to A to B, even though you're like excited saying like, oh,
I want to I want to tell you everything right now,
real quick.

Speaker 1 (36:50):
Sure, yeah of course that is.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
Yeah, but no, I have to like tell you and
like actors, I can't tell you all that once.

Speaker 1 (37:01):
Well, you know what, One time I was researching an
article I wrote which was called My Boyfriend the Killer.
And it's surprising because some of these women get involved
with guys that have a history of murder and across
the board, with very little exceptions. They always thought they
were going to be the special one that he doesn't kill.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
It's incredible to think, and you don't I convince that
person like I can solve him. Actually that's a part
of his book. He's actually he is solved at one point,
but then you know he gets off the tracks again.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Well, you know what one of two things, Either they
think like you because I can redeem him whatever, or
the the he'll tell them Oh, they give like, oh,
it wasn't really, it was accidental and they believe it,
and you're like, really.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know, the killer in this instant wanted to be redeemed,
but then it didn't work. He tried. I mean, and
that's kind of like I think addiction sometimes if you're addicted,
but you're addicted for life, and hopefully you can stay
off addiction.

Speaker 1 (38:00):
I'll tell you that much, and then you.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
Might go back off. I mean, you might go back
to it, right. You never know what weak moments you
have or things like that.

Speaker 1 (38:09):
Well, they had that guy, the BTK killer, that bind
torture kill who went dormant. I think it was like
for ten years or fourteen years or something. Yeah, that
that sometimes even these profilers and psychologists, they themselves don't
quite understand why. Some of them just decide to stop
doing it, sometimes go for years and then usually there's

(38:32):
some event or triggering event which makes them start killing again.
But yeah, I think.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
They can, like Robin Williams for example, he wasn't a killer,
of course, but he was an alcoholic and then he
stopped like twenty years, but then he started back up, right,
And I mean, I think that's what I'm saying. Sometimes
these things you can just do without an addiction. But sometimes,
I mean, I think the addition's with you for life.
It's just whether or not.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
You think, oh no, well or stopping. If you listen
to some people who deal with addicts, I'll tell you
there really is no cure. In other words, that person,
even if they stay sober for years and years and years,
they kind of have that's like an ongoing battle they
have inside themselves. Usually it gets better as you get older.
Like I'm not going to give into whatever their addiction is, sure,

(39:19):
but yeah, and let's face it, if you have something
like your killer who's getting maybe an adrella in dopamine
shot every time he kills, plus sexual gratification, that's a
hard that's a hard addiction to overhere.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
And you can and you can get rid of I mean,
you can get away with it. That's the thing. It's
like sometimes that's the high too, It's like, oh I
got I got away with this.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
Yes, yes, they get this, I smarted them all.

Speaker 2 (39:46):
But it's also a cycle because you know, you imagine
they probably do feel bad, but they feel bad for
just equip for a moment and they feel like I
wanted to explore that because it's kind of like, yeah
I feel bad and yeah I want to quit, but
oh I need that rush again because it's kind of
like the mundane part of life.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Let me ask you something. Was the profile on your
killer was? You know, sometimes you hear that they'll kill
other people who they're substituting for the one they really
want to kill that so maybe they loved so they
just end up killing similar people. Was that the thing
with him? Or No?

Speaker 2 (40:21):
No, I never explored.

Speaker 1 (40:23):
I know you said men, but you know.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
I never exploded. I think for him, I wanted to
put an artistic bent because I really like certain Greek
and mythologies. So for example, one of my favorite mythologies,
and I try to interfind this in the story is
the story of Tantalus. So Tantalus, if anyone doesn't know
about it, he was a guy that the gods really liked,

(40:47):
and they really like just hanging out with them, like
Zeus and stuff like this. So I'm trying to I'm
paraphrasing things, sure, but he didn't like the fact that
they had so much control, and he wanted to try
to fake them out. And he was kind of a
half god himself, and he decided to kill his son,
which is crazy, and then chopped him up and put

(41:08):
him his food and try to trick the gods, thinking that, oh,
you don't know everything, and the gods did know it.
So what they did is they the way they punished
him is they put him in this kind of place
where he was in prison, and whenever he wanted something
to drink, the river would just dry out, just to
r out of his fingertips. And whenever he wanted food,

(41:28):
he would jump for it. But it's just out of reach.
And to me, that's kind of a parallel to life.
Sometimes sometimes you're looking for a job and you just
get rejected over and over again, or you're chasing this
or you're chasing that, and it's just frustrating. So he
was chasing someone who was one of his victims, who
was kind of that part of his life where he

(41:49):
just couldn't get that break. Everything was just slightly out
of reach. So it's kind of the story of Tantalus,
and I thought that was very kind of.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Very you know, yeah, let me take some of those
Greek gods. They were, but I know that a lot
of the stories they you know, they they're they're like,
that's a very hellish type of punishment.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, you know, yeah, sometimes some people and then they
just can't get the things that they desire.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
What's that movie that came God, they came out in
the nineties with Michael Douglas. Uh Game, No, not the game.
This was prior to the game that he plays the
white the guy that the Falling, the the Oh my god,
that he's like an office one.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, Falling. I think he's all right, and.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
That he just like that day everything goes sideways for
him and he just something in his head just goes Yeah,
it just cracks.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah, like that rejection that like like that one more
that that what is it that straw that broke the
camel's back kind of deal.

Speaker 2 (42:52):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I think that's people have this all
the time. I think we have have eight billion people
on the Earth and even like some weeks, i mean
I'll feel like, man, everything's going wrong today, and what's
going to go wrong today? It's like just a little
stupid stuff gets in your way of your kind of
daily routines or whatever.

Speaker 1 (43:10):
Did you hear what I said at the beginning of
my intro that I said dole is underrated. I'm not kidding.
That's why I say that. I say that in relation
to what you just described, that there's time that you're like, man,
I'll settle for dole, you know, like dolls in my
my regular routine where the expected actually happens, because you know,
sometimes yeah, every I think everybody, you know, you get

(43:32):
that feeling the universe is picking on me.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yea god, god, he or she is out there and
she's like me. She's a comedian. She's like bringing things.
And it happens at the weirdest times, like when you
haven't had something happen for for a while, like and
you're thinking about it and all of a sudden it happens.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
You know, yes, and then you ask yourself, am I
I'm gonna I'm gonna go over to the wo side
for minute. Am I being psychic and anticipating it? Or
did I manifest it because I was thinking about it?
Which which with the when is it the first of
chicken or the egg kind of dealing. But yeah, there's
times where things like uh, like it's like like one thing,

(44:15):
it's like man, it's like okay, anything else, like is
that gonna have the roof? Is gonna fall in on me?
Like that kind of deal. I think that happens to everybody.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's just our experience of living,
you know, like you're saying with the dogs, I mean
we all I mean I have a dog, and it's
like you love being around them, and but it's heartbreak
when they kind of leave you or because they're gonna
they're gonna live shorter you.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
Yeah, yeah, I let me tell you so. I it's
one of those things. And like I said, you know
you expect them, but when it starts things like that
start happening, you're like you're like, okay, you know, like
put on your big girl pants because you knew that
something along this version was going to happen sooner or later.
But we're all cowards, I want to say, when it
comes to things like this. But and I'm gonna say also,

(45:01):
and I don't know if you tell me this is
maybe the emotional makeup of your killer, the character that
at some point maybe when they were young, there's some
type of emotional fragility and something hurts them that sometimes
affects who they become down the road as far as there,
how's this the disconnect from social norms like don't kill people?

(45:25):
Is that part of.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
I think the opposite. So I can see that, and
I can see that with people, but I wanted to.
I did explore this, and I talk about in the book.
So for him, he didn't have he's so unemotional about
what he does as a killer. It's because he had
no emotional put on him as a child. His parents

(45:48):
ends upbringing was more of one where they said, like,
I want you go out in the world and explore yourself.
I'm not going to give you any guidelines or give
you kind of instructions or help you.

Speaker 1 (45:57):
Out on them.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Okay, So it was kind of a cold relationship that
he grew up in. So it's almost like you might
not hate someone, but you might not have no emotion
for someone.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
That's just for a child. That's horrible because I mean.

Speaker 2 (46:11):
I mean I kind of had that, like when my
dad left, and it's no hard I don't have any
hard feelings towards my dad, but my dad and my
mom they divorced and he kind of just went on
and did his thing, and my mom kind of grew me,
grew up and it's a strong woman and it was great.
But since he wasn't in my life, there's nothing there

(46:32):
to have emotion towards. So now it's like there's like
no emotion and I don't have any hard feelings towards that.
It's just unemotional. It's like you can sometimes when you
think about someone, you think about and you have good
feelings before them, or you have bad feelings. Sometimes you
think about someone it's neutral. It's just like, so this
killer is more like I think having an unemotional type

(46:56):
of thinking can actually lead to like, oh, I can
kill some and I don't really care about it, right,
I don't have any attachment to it, because that's.

Speaker 1 (47:05):
He wasn't a born psychopath. He wasn't one of these
that you say.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
He is a born psychopath. But he has kind of
no no yardstick if you will, towards social norms. What
keeps us I'm not hurting each other right because we
have some basic rules like I don't want to hurt
someone else because how would it feel if someone hurt.
If someone hurt me, I don't want to I don't
want to be hurt. So if I don't want to
be hurt, then someone else shouldn't be hurt. Right. That's

(47:29):
kind of a basic rule out there. But there's an
other basic rules too.

Speaker 1 (47:33):
But you know what, and the reason why I say
this is there's going to be psychopaths. Not all of
them kill people. But the only thing that stomps them is,
let's say you're gonna get in trouble. In other words,
they don't feel bad about it. How's this all they
fear about? Is I don't want to get arrested and
go to jail or prison. But they're very controlling in
and of themselves.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Sure.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
But then then there's the ones like you said that
maybe they like that cat and mouse thing of like
I'm going to outsmart the police and I want to prove,
you know, I can get away with this, and you
know what I'm gonna say, and and and you know,
sometimes some of these guys don't get caught because the
incompetence of who's investigating it. Do you know that? Right?

Speaker 2 (48:15):
Sometimes they the wall, Yeah, I mean especially I mean
back before, back in the forties, Like you're saying, it
must have been very easy to harm people because you
can really get away with things. I mean, hell, back
in the seventies, even the seventies, I think I was
listening to se many pr things. It's kind of off topic,

(48:35):
but there's like a thousand bank robberties a day in
Los Angeles area, Yes, the seventies, right, He's like, wow,
how did that happen?

Speaker 1 (48:48):
Bank?

Speaker 2 (48:48):
You sure the thirties or something. But it's like, so,
but now things are a lot different.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Because with digital, you know, everything now is so digital
that they say that most of these banks don't have
like the cash that you to have back then, like
on hand.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Yeah. But like you're saying, it's kind of like you
don't want to get caught, because you get caught, then
your whole life changes and you tell blah blah blah.
So a lot of times people just say, like I
don't want to get in trouble. It's a pain in
the ass.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
Right right, But the moral compass part of like this
is the wrong thing to do is not part of
the equation. Yeah, I don't want to go to prison.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
You know, if you if you don't have the moral compass.
Then you're always trying to solve things too, Like I mean,
you can solve anything and it doesn't have to be murdered.
But you'd be like, oh, it's just kind of trouble.
How do I get out of this? Oh? I got
to do this and do this and do this to
cover up whatever I did.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
There's some of them that I think, some of the
profilers they call them organized killers. That they're the ones
like you said that they organize, they prepare things, and
they already have either a way of getting out of there.
You know, they have the plan B and sometimes a
plan C, which is how they get away with stuff.

(49:57):
Sure now, like I say, with forensicks, but still believe
it or not, there's a lot of cases that just
do not. I want to say, I laugh because you
know that a lot of these connections are made by
that DNA genealogy match. So I tell everybody, if you

(50:17):
have a cousin or an uncle who wiggs out because
you tell them you just gave a sample for your genealogy,
you better watch them clothes, because that's how they sometimes
link them up. They never end up going to prison
or dnaate or anything like that. In other words, if
they put that DNA from the victim, there's no match
to that person. But then if you have a family

(50:40):
member that does give some type of sample, they have
found connections that way because they're of course the DNA
there is a remnant of it because of familial tie.
So I said, you ever have a family member, especially
an older one, that goes what you're doing, what it's like? What?
I think that's how they got the I'm sure you

(51:03):
heard of him, the Golden Well, he had different names,
Golden Gate Killer. He was out in California and I
think they caught him like twenty eighteen. As a matter
of fact, this guy was on a rampage at some
point they thought he was. There was more than one killer,
and it turned out this one guy and how he
got caught he had stopped I think he was. He

(51:25):
was accused of rape, being murder, and he would even
break into a person's house and leave a door unlocked
like a way to get in. He prepared this bottom line,
He got snagged because of that because they had DNA evidence.
But he never popped up on any like you know

(51:45):
somebody that's been convicted or any other crime. And because
of a genealogy match. That's how they caught him after many, many,
many years. I think I want to say he was
acting like in the seventies and eighties in California. So
you know that, let me tell you something as far
as modern storytelling, it changes the dynamics. Like you said,

(52:09):
whereas before, if you wrote this story back in the
seventies in the eighties, they didn't have to worry about
the same thing. Now, like what you're writing, you know,
how do you incorporate where they have, like you said,
cameras everywhere and.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
The technology and the story. So I used the phones.
The phones was like a big thing, and yeah there
were cameras too, But this killer was like very he
was staying within rules, so like he would it would
look like he was just a normal person when he
was kind of placing his victims because in this story
puts the victims in public places. He does it, and

(52:49):
how the hell do you do that? So I walked
through exactly how he did it, and when you read it,
you're like, oh, that just looks like a normal person.
But he was putting the dead body in this party.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
In other words, so he which, by the way, a
lot of them what is it that Ted Bundy. If
you look at that guy, you would never think that
guy was a serial killer. He looked like this young man,
you know. Yeah, that normal appearance takes you a long
way when you're a serial killer or you're.

Speaker 2 (53:19):
Just doing normal things. Like for example, the first killing
is in New Orleans, which can be a party place,
and he looks like a drunk person. He looks he
looks like he's him and the victimy has. They look drunk,
which is a common thing that you would see on
Bourbon Street. But then all of a sudden comes up
a little bit later, Oh, that that drunk person he's

(53:42):
with is one of his victims. And when I put
it in a place that no one pays attention to it,
as long as no one's paying attention to it, then yeah,
then uh.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
Yeah, everybody's having their own good time. And it's like
like you said, oh those those air people stumbling around. Sure,
I'm stumbling around myself little bit. Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
In a party atmosphere, like you said, like New Orleans,
people don't give it. I hate to say it, even nowadays,
sometimes people are so wicked out that they don't they're like,
I don't want to know nothing about this, you know,

(54:14):
like I don't see anything though, No, I don't want
to know. So yeah, there's there's a Now let me
ask you this person ultimately, well, let's see, I don't
want you to give your book away either, because I'm
just I'm just thinking, oh what you know. You're saying

(54:35):
basically that he was doing these murders mostly to bring
that person to where he was at.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yeah, he was, well, he was he was tracked, he
was doing he had a line of murders going to
where the person that is a relationship with is okay okay,
And in that instance, he was setting that one of
the protagonists up.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
So he had this in other words, he had this
already planned out.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
This out okay okay, but he was showcasing his killing ability.
So I kind of wanted to have a serial killer
that wanted to brag kind of like, oh, I can
do I can do anything, because I haven't gotten because
you find out he has a trail of murders in

(55:23):
his past. So in this story he's just killing a
few people, but he has a past of killing more
than a few people. So he feels very confident, like wow,
I'm a professional at this.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
This so he's been getting away with it for a
while and.

Speaker 2 (55:37):
Yeah, yeah, okay, so you find out about that he
has kind of he's a talker, and maybe my serial
killer a talker.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
So let me ask him when I ask this, does
he is he a loaner or is he a family
guy that's pretending like when you because you're saying he's
a loaner, he's a loner, just a normal loaner kind of.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
He's the kind of the one that and I wanted
to make because I was thinking serial killers have to
be I was thinking about what makes serial killers unique too.
In some ways, I feel like they might not be
like super rich, but I feel like they got to
be comfortable enough that they're not stressed out about money.
So this serial killer is one that's money's not as stress,
so he can put all his thought into the process

(56:20):
of absolutely do I do what I want to do,
which is I'm a killer and I want to do that, right,
So money is not as stress. So I felt like,
I think he needs to be comfortable. And some serial
killers I've read about are comfortable people, right, They're not.
They're not in a situation of like I need to
think about food and rent and blah blah blah.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Right, right, No, especially if they portray like what you
said that that profile of a normal average person. It's
you know, if they're intelligent, they maybe have a good
job or you know, or some situation in life like
you said that you're not stressing about a pay my rent. No,
that's not there. So that some time to like you know,

(57:02):
figure things like what you were describing as like I'm
going to do this and this, I'm going to do that,
and then I'm going to do this, yeah and yeah.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Means about doing the things they're going to do. You know.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
No, you know what I tell everybody. You know what
sometimes you know when I I'm talking the normies here,
you know, sometimes you get caught up so much in
living from day to day that you don't have time
or brain power to start doing that deep deep planning
like what we're talking about where you know, I'm going

(57:35):
to get away with murder various times because it's like
man that you know, that's why I'm saying there. You know,
you hear about these people that kill somebody else un impulse,
something happens, a fight, you know, infidelity, revenge. You know
a lot of times out of ten they get caught

(57:56):
because they didn't plan it. They just acted on the moment,
on the emotion. Yeah, but let me ask you, does
he is there all this time that he's doing these
these murders. Are the police ever close to figuring it
out it's him or never? They're just like totally.

Speaker 2 (58:18):
Yeah. Well I had that question before, dude, because a
lot of times people say, like, oh, with these kind
of storytelling that you find these police officers are like
anept they're not very quick doing so I didn't go
down that road. I think the main police force. Yeah,
but one of the protagonists is actually detective.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Okay, and he becomes I read that.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Yeah, and he becomes involved in it one. He wants
to protect his friends because his friends are going to
explore this, so he wants to be like, Okay, we're
a group and we're going to try to find this killer.
And because he's not a signed to the case, but
he's using his skills to help. But he's really frustrated
because he has a past to back in Los Angeles

(59:01):
where he came from before Houston, where he had tragedy
occur to him and what scares him is he gonna
is he gonna have tragedy again in this situation. So
he feels at times like, yes, I'm a smart person,
I'm trying to solve this, but I can't solve it.
And ultimately it's coming up to him how does he

(59:24):
chase and track this killer because he's the one that
has the most experience in this, but he also has
failure from the pasture, so he's trying to resolve that
in this whole kind of cat like this chasing mouse
cat chasing game that I put up in the story.
So there is a detective and he's a central part

(59:44):
of the story. He's one of the protagonists. So yeah,
he's that's Peter, and he's he's a big he's a big.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
Part of the story, right, And people don't realize what,
especially when we're talking about the that now more modern times,
you know, jurisdictions talk to each other, you know, like
like one time I was looking in on this this
is a murder that like in the nineteen seventies, and
later on they realized and the reason why I is

(01:00:16):
that the eventually, like in two thousand and eighteen, you know,
when they have these cold cases that they revived, they
found they realized they had lost the they lost the
whole thing. But originally it went kind of cold because
they killed the couple in New York, but they dumped
their bodies in New Jersey. It's like, whoever the killer

(01:00:37):
was was smart enough to realize when you kill them,
and that's exactly what happened. The jurisdictions kept fighting, saying, no,
it's yours, but no, it's yours. No they got killed
in New York. No, they got killed in New Jersey,
you know, and like whoever did it, You're thinking, Okay,
this person, whoever it was, planted it out enough to
know I'm gonna kill him here, but I'm gonna take
them across state lines because I know these two departments

(01:00:59):
are gonna start fighting with each other who's going to
take the case, And in that confusion, I'm going to
get away with it. Which, by the way, they have
they haven't found they never and like I said twenty eighteen,
I think they try to. They reopened it and then
they started looking for the box of evidence and it's disappeared.
But yes, like when you were talking about the planning

(01:01:21):
and things of that nature, that all you need is
you know, one guy that kill her in this case,
who's saying, Okay, how can I make this a little
bit difficult for the authorities? Kill them one place and
dump them in another. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
I think what's scariest. I think there are probably a
lot of people who can get rid of with murder,
you know. I mean, it's probably happening. We just don't
read about it. But sure, I think. I mean if
all the people who are really trained to kill people
in the world, like are kind of our secret agents,
you know, like they could probably kill people if they wanted.
I mean, that's probably one of my next stories if

(01:01:58):
I go down this And I wanted to create the
story because I set this up as like these three
characters could continue to kind of have another story, okay things,
And I was thinking about that, like the ultimate so
serial killer is the one that it's like like a
Navy seal or something like that, someone who's like trained
to do this go in and take people out. That's

(01:02:20):
the scariest serial killer. That's the one that could do
some real damage, right, I.

Speaker 1 (01:02:25):
Want to say, I want to say the most scariest
serial killer I can think of, which I think are
the I I this is this is my theory. I say,
there's a bunch of serial killers that nobody ever knew
they were serial killer? Why besides not getting caught that
is obviously they knew how to keep their mouths shut.
There's a lot of guys get caught because they go

(01:02:46):
to they don't go to prison for something else, and
they talk, oh you know that thing that was me,
and then their prisonmate goes, you know, trying to get favors.
They number one, they pretend to be normal, like what
your character is. They're smart, and they learned to keep
their mouths shut all right, and in some cases are

(01:03:07):
smart enough also to move to like leave the area
where they were committing their crimes. And I that's my theory.
I say, there's for all the ones that are caught
or may or like you know, we think there's a
there's a bunch that never nobody's ever even knows about them.

(01:03:27):
Ye yeah, And that that that that when you did
that example you gave of the uh you know, you
know you have somebody that maybe is uh was trained
to kill people, whether with a firearm or with our
hands or something. It's like, well that'll do it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Yeah, I mean yeah, because it's like you always see
these movies where people it's like, oh, we gotta get
rid of the body, you know, And that's what you're
talking about with these cold cases. Your first example is
like they dismembered this this woman, poor woman, and they
still got DNA from her eventually. But I mean that's
just like everyone. If I can only imagine if you
got if he kills someone, it's like the first thing
you're thinking about, well, one, how do I get rid

(01:04:10):
of the body? And then two how do I make
sure there's no trail to go down to where the
body could be. I mean, if you did such a
good job of getting rid of the body and there's
no body, there's still in this day and age, they
could still show that you killed that body by seeing
like some camera action or in this type of evidence.

(01:04:33):
So you would have to be paranoid about like, oh
my god.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
No that thing with the pinging of the phone. I
know they've used that in some cases.

Speaker 2 (01:04:39):
Yeah, yeah, I mean there could be all these like
bits a piece of evidence. I mean, yeah, the body
would be one thing. Getting rid of the body, and
then you got to hold.

Speaker 1 (01:04:47):
Yes, let me take something. Bodies even for a man,
especially in your case where you're saying some of his
victims were men. Yeah, a body, a dead body is
it's difficult to move. Not because I moved that, but
because I have done physical exams where they give you
something that's like a dead body that you've got to

(01:05:07):
drag it, you know, something that has like totally uh
So even for a man to carry another man that's
got that's a difficult thing to do.

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Sure, yeah, no doubt.

Speaker 1 (01:05:18):
Yeah, So let me ask you, does he I don't
want to get I don't want you to give the
book away? Does he? Does anybody ever catch on because
you're saying that he would pose them in certain ways
in public? Right?

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
Does anybody understand what his message was at any point?

Speaker 2 (01:05:38):
Uh? He tells his message to one of the protagonists,
okay in the storyline, so no one. He leaves messages
on the bodies, Oh okay, Okay, Ye're cryptic. So but
he does leave messages on the bodies that that's trying

(01:05:58):
to give evidence to like this, this is this is
my art, and this is the story behind my art.
So each victim is in a setting, okay, and set
up with like a certain prop are certain messages like
scarred into the victim's body, be their chest, things like that.

Speaker 1 (01:06:20):
So it's almost like this I just written there, Okay,
So and but is this something that they need people
need to like understand his because you're saying he's got
this mythology idea.

Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
Yeah, and I kind of I kind of give the
reader heads up because then the names of my chapters
are based on what messages he's putting on the body.
So one, so, like I told you about the Tantalus story,
so that there's a chapter called Tantalus, and then there's
a story called Icarus. Chris is another famous story where
where you know, the father kind of him and his

(01:06:59):
son gets out of the main basically have the wings
of wags, and he warns his son to like not
go too high in the sky to the sun because
it'll melt. So the sun doesn't listen because he's just
too he's too proud, right, He's too like, oh, nothing's
gonna happen to me. And that's that's another reflection of life,
like sometimes we can just be too proud of ourselves
and then we can fall.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
Because yeah, let me let me show, let me show.
There is the cover of your book The Protagonists, Okay,
the World is Angry, which, by the way, the synopsis
I read is what you have there. This is a
as you can tell. This is on Amazon right.

Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
Yes, Amazon, Amazon, but uh, Barnes and Noble, the eyebook,
Apple store. Yeah, you can find a number of different it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Is there, it is okay, all right. So basically what
you're saying is you're going to be doing maybe like
a type of series with these characters.

Speaker 2 (01:07:57):
And yeah, I've thought about it. I mean, if the
book is more successful, then yeah, I would definitely would
love to do a series because it's kind of I
have those kind of stories in my head and I think,
I mean, the readers that have talked to you, they
really liked the story, and I mean they like the way.
They got really attached to the characters. So now I'm

(01:08:18):
attached to the characters whenever.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
You're right, Yeah, I know that. Yeah that In other words,
they take got out for lack of a better, We're
lack of better, They're they're three dimensional. It's like, hey, yeah,
that's that's and it's there. Ask you something real quick,
how about conflict between these characters? Is there conflict?

Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
Oh? Well, yeah, there's conflict. But there's also kind of
like since there's two guys and the girl, there's a
triangle there.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Okay, there we go.

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
I like triangles because I think it's very common in life.
And twice Floord and I and I just finished my
second book, which is this was a psychological thriller. My
second book just finished it. I'm trying to get liter
agents now, so I'm going through that process. But it's
a sci fi action book.

Speaker 1 (01:09:07):
Okay, you are what kind of sci fi are we
talking here?

Speaker 2 (01:09:11):
It's about two Well, it's another kind of friend thing.
So this is like two friends and they have a startup,
an AI startup company, and there's their Their technology is
they found a way to code a certain type of
robotic functionality, if you will, where we can kind of
we can put it inside people's bodies and you can

(01:09:33):
either control their minds by making them do things, or
one of the protagonists says, well, there's a part of
the brain that I will explore that will help people evolve, Okay,
better people. So he does the conflict there is one
is like, well, I like this technology. I want to
use it to control people and have people do what
I want. And governments can see that too.

Speaker 1 (01:09:52):
Wow. So is this let me ask you, is this
like present day sci fi or futuristic.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Present day in a lot of ways, because a lot
of this AI technology is coming to life where they
can kind of tap into the brain by having well,
right now, it's kind of it's very it's kind of
future meaning like right now, there's actually technology like I
think Musk has done this with someone where he's put

(01:10:22):
a chip in someone's brain. It's like they can actually
with their brain and using this chip can get things
to move, like like move their arms or move certain
things right or whatever. So that technology is there, but
I want to explore, well, what if you were so
smart and we have the technology.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Yeah, that's by which, by the way, is kind of scary.
I think a lot of people, you know, they they
look at these advances. I'm going I'm going to go
into the and they're always looking at the good end
of it, the benefits part, and then you know there's
always a sometimes downside to it. Yeah that kind of

(01:11:05):
later on it turns out that you know, it's like
the f sign monster, you know, kind of morphs into
something else.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
Yeah, yeah, sure, I mean there's a lot of instances
where you had good you had good intentions, but they
led to bad results, right sure, exactly, in a bad
in a way you didn't want to.

Speaker 1 (01:11:30):
Yeah, that that I want to say, that's very more
common than people realize about, you know what, and sometimes
people in this case, I'll be honest with you, that
that scenario that you're painting about AI And let me
tell you, once upon a time that was distant, distant
future of sci fi. But we got it basically on

(01:11:52):
a doorstep right now, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Exactly, something that's I mean, probably the next fifty years
is going to be a very different world, right.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
Sure, absolutely. I mean I look at it this way, say,
man who wouldn't want a robot around the house is
going to do all the drudge work. Then you think
of movies like I Robot. All of a sudden, the
robot looks at you and goes, You're not going anywhere.
You're like what you know, because of course, you know,
we always look at the at the at the downside
of scenarios like yeah, what started out as like, hey,

(01:12:23):
you don't have to clean your house anymore, mow the lawn,
We'll have the robot do it for you. And then
the next thing, you know, the robot is like, we're
taking over, or whoever's down giving a download to the
robot says we're taken over. And yeah, it's always a
little bit you know, a little bit dramatic here. But
so I was you got ahead of me. I was
going to ask you, do you have another book? But
you already got the book.

Speaker 2 (01:12:45):
It hasn't been published, and I'm still in that process
of seeing about trying to land a literary agency if
something okay bok could be published a traditional way. So
I'm just beginning that process.

Speaker 1 (01:12:57):
But but these are these characters are not nothing to
do with the first book.

Speaker 2 (01:13:00):
No, nothing to do. I had a sci fi action
story in my mind and I was like, I want
to explore this.

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
So yeah I did that. Yeah, okay, Well for uh,
for my podcast listeners, John, where can they find your work?
Is it just on Amazon? Do you have a website?
How they come?

Speaker 2 (01:13:19):
Yeah, it's it's mainly Amazon because that's mainly what a
lot of people buy from. But Amazon, Barnes and Noble,
the iBook, Apple Store, there's other platforms, good Reads, you
can get it there. So yeah, there's those are the
main areas.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Okay, so you're just basically at this point you're just
waiting for a little ray agent to go ahead and
get started. You No, not this year, next year, then
you're looking at releasing then your other book.

Speaker 2 (01:13:47):
I would hope next year. It's kind of it's all.
It's so competitive, so you just never know exactly if
you can even land it.

Speaker 1 (01:13:55):
You know, do you have a title for it yet?

Speaker 2 (01:13:58):
It's called flight flight flight?

Speaker 1 (01:14:02):
Okay, all right, very good again, Thank you so much, John.
It has been absolutely wonderful talk to you, and I
want to wish you the best of luck and all
your projects.

Speaker 2 (01:14:10):
Yea, thank you. It's been a joy that talked with you,
and I enjoyed it, so thanks you.

Speaker 1 (01:14:15):
Take care all right, bye bye. See that's why you know.
I'm into the Cold Case stuff just in and of itself.
But I introduced it because I was looking at his
the story, which by the way, is very good, and
I'm thinking, let's face it, unfortunately, there's plenty of examples

(01:14:40):
that you could draw. I don't want inspiration is not
the right word I'm thinking of. But as far as
where do I where's my jumping off point for this character?
If you're looking for someone that psychopathic sociopathic someone, because remember,
like I said, this is I think it's hard enough
you're going to kill a person period, period. But then

(01:15:03):
you know, you have the moments where you say, people
kill another person in a moment of extreme anger emotion.
In other words, there's there's a connection between these people.
I said, love and fidelity. You know you you double
cross me about money or business or even sometimes I
hate to say, you took my parking space whatever. But

(01:15:26):
then if you, if you're a normal human being that
is and in other words, this is alien to you,
how would you start to understand Let's say, in this case,
a serial killer who's killing people or person for like you,
I don't even know who you are. You've never done
anything against me, but I'm gonna kill you. And and

(01:15:51):
the example of John's book, I'm Gonna pose you, I'm
gonna basically you're using the person besides the RuSHA that uh,
the killers getting by the by killing them. I'm gonna
use you because I'm working out this fantasy in my
head of whatever. And plus I got a problem with
this person, you know, in other words, this this person

(01:16:13):
is not a person you know. In other words, they
how do you get to the moment where another person
there is no humanity there. That's why you can just
kill them and say, well, you know what, and then
I'm gonna and I'm gonna plan this and I'm gonna
pose them it. So I'm thinking, Okay, the only way
you can get is when you start reading about these
stories of these uh, I'm gonna say serial killers. You know,

(01:16:39):
even though that that term is really recent when it
comes to the idea of murders as far as that
serial killer because I said, because sometimes you go into
these true crime and you hear about, like I said,
people that do family members in or stuff like that,
but you see the motive. I mean, it's horrible what

(01:17:00):
they do, but you see the motive. Neighbors, people, marriages
that they you know, those black widow people, or hey,
I'm gonna get a divorce, but I'm not gonna let
you have half my fortunes, so I'm gonna kill you,
or I want half your fortunes, so I'm gonna kill you.
But otherwise, just this is history with the people that

(01:17:21):
end up the murder and the murdery or the victim.
But again, and I think this is what sometimes people
are fascinated with the subject of serial killers. Is when
you really have no emotion behind it at all, not
one way or the other. You either fixate it on

(01:17:43):
this person because you have an inner fantasy life. Sometimes
maybe it's even a substitute for somebody when you were
a child. And again, like he was talking about some
of them, it satisfies, It feeds your soul on some level.
There's something in their brain. Whether you want to say, well,

(01:18:05):
dopamine squirts out, but there's just something. And I want
to say, if you read some of these profiles on
some of these killers that have been identified by the way,
absolutely yes, I talk about the ones that you never
know they existed. How's that because they never get caught

(01:18:26):
and they learn how to keep their mouths shut, and
more than likely they crafted in appearance of normalcy very
very well, very well. Whether they stay permanently in an
area for years and years and everybody thought, oh, he's
a nice guy. They even sometimes have families, or they're
smart enough that every few years they pick up and

(01:18:47):
go and they move to another state, whatever. But they
appear normal. When you look at them, you're going, oh, oh,
nice guy, or hey, not like that grune. I don't
know if well, the ones that watch the video version
of this, the you know, the the person that just
by looking at them, you're like, oh my god, who

(01:19:09):
you know that that? In other words, they learned, they're
smart enough to know if I have this appearance. Number one,
depending on who their victims are, you're not gonna come
close to me. All right, You're not gonna come close
to me. So I'm not going to appear scary. How's that?

(01:19:31):
That's number one? Number two, your neighbors are going to
be like, oh my god, that weird guy that lives
you know something. Let's put it this way, if something
ever goes south, they're going to come and look for you,
because you're the weird guy that that just because of
the way you look, they're gonna come knocking at your door.
As a matter of fact, let me this is gonna

(01:19:55):
be again for my for my video people. All right,
this is a picture of what these two killers of
those two fourteen year old girls look like. This is
look at this. Look at these guys. This is, like
I said, the one on the well on your the

(01:20:15):
one with the uh one eye bigger than the other.
He died in twenty nineteen, and the other one next
to him Stein died in two thousand and nine. And
I guess it's really kind of sad because these men
apparently they'd had a lengthy criminal history, violent criminal history,
and they lived I want to say, into old age,

(01:20:35):
all right, they lived into old age. They got to
enjoy living. And by the ways, you could tell both
of these pictures or mugshots and you know, you look
at them now and you're like, you know, if anything
goes soulid, I'm going to be looking for these guys
because there's they just give off that vibe like But again,

(01:21:02):
I want to say that, let me see that there's
a lot of the criminals not like these guys, that
they have a certain look. They're smart. I agree with
him a lot of times to make sure that they're
doing okay money wise, and they they craft like Gaycy

(01:21:28):
he was like it. He belonged to the j CS
and would dress up as a clown and go visit
kids in the hospital. Because everybody, you know, the normies,
think how could somebody be killing guys and stuffing their
bodies under their house and then at the same time
be visiting kids the hospital. Dressed as a clown, you know.

(01:21:50):
And that's that's the thing. You know, monsters don't always
look like monsters. As a matter of fact, they're really
good monsters take pains to look anything like that. And
I think that and I want to say, like this,

(01:22:10):
like this case that yeah, they finally found out because
I had research. When I researched that case of the
Canal murders or what they call the flat tire murders
here in South Florida, they there was several of them,
and they at that time there was it was still
a cold case, and I was gled to see. And
I'm thinking and unfortunately the nineteen seventies where there was

(01:22:36):
so much hitchhiking, I think it must have been like uh,
serial killer Paradise, because your victims were basically wanting to
get into to go with you, all right, And I
want to say, unfortunately it hurt a lot of the
cases because sometimes all they had was a white van, Hello,

(01:23:03):
a white van. Two girls that were known for lying
to their parents, which is god, any fourteen year old doesn't,
but what they were outcoming rides and just got into
the wrong van. I mean, sometimes now you think of
it and it's like, who would do that? But back
then that was like, hey, and obviously, and this is

(01:23:24):
the thing. They had already gotten a ride for a
guy on a motorbike, and I guarantee you that they
had been hitchhiking before and nothing ever happened to them.
And of course, when you're that age, you don't think
anything is going to ever happen to you, right, So
here we go, you know, back to that scenario of

(01:23:45):
let's say present day, how's this, I think a lot
of people say, well, you know, now, with the advances
of DNA forensics, you know, it's going to be really
difficult for people to get away with murder. You'd be surprised.
There's a lot of space, a lot a line in
the space across the United States where there are no cameras.

(01:24:06):
Sometimes they don't even have a cell signal for the
love of Mike. There's just there's nothing, okay where people disappear.
People people disappear, you know, and uh, it's one of

(01:24:27):
those things that unfortunately, how's this for every you know,
back at the I want to say, in the turn
of the century and things like that, the only forensics
they have was basically fingerprints, and sometimes d dental work. Okay,

(01:24:52):
so a lot of times victims they were decapitated and
their hands were taken off. Why because this was a
way to identify them. This was we're talking to your
turn of the century around that time. Every once in
a while, I had one case that happened in the
nineteen twenties where basically they identified the girl. She had

(01:25:13):
a tattoo. Back then, like was the nineteen twenties. She
had a tattoo, a little tattoo like around, little tattoo
with an R. I think it was on her leg,
which was very unusual by the way. Back then women
didn't use tattoos. So but in other words, there's the
killers always figure out something how to get around the problem.

(01:25:36):
Besides the fact of not letting the body be found
is like if they find it, I'm going to make
it really difficult because if they don't know who it is,
it's not going to lead them to me. And usually
that indicates like this was a person, this person knew
because they're going to say, we can identify who the
victim is. We know and what direction to look, all right,

(01:25:57):
I was I was looking at all these you know,
everybody thinks of when Jack the Ripper and all this.
You know what, around that times there were tons of
dismembered bodies of women coming up in the Thames River
because everybody thinks that these you know, these victims of
the Jack the Ripper, all these prostitutes. But if you

(01:26:18):
look at the history prior and after, there was a
bunch of very like grizzly grizzly murders. This memberment right
there in London, not necessarily White Chapel, but in London
that some of them were prostitutes or you know, risky lifestyle.
Some people say, hey, this was the handiwork of who

(01:26:40):
the jackta Ripper is that they recently they kind of
think it's a guy that was. I'll bring it up
the next time. I'll tell you what. And then other times,
like I said, there was that case of Pearlbrian which
became it gained prominence when the Guy's Ghost Adventures went

(01:27:01):
to Bobby Mackie's World of Music and supposedly she was
one of the ghosts. And it turned out around the
turn of the century they found her decapitated body and
they never found her head. But anyway, originally when they
discovered the body, they couldn't find the head, so they
didn't know who it was. And her body was found
very close to a fort and they thought originally that

(01:27:24):
it was a prostitute, you know, connection to the fort.
So yeah, everybody was like concerned, but they were like thinking,
fallen woman, that kind of deal, and believe it or not.
The way she got id'd on, which changed the whole
direction of the case was she had a very little
foot of sice three and there was a gentleman named

(01:27:45):
mister Pook who ran I think it was Greencastle? Was
it in green Castle? I believe, who ran the shoe shop,
and he recognized her because the police kind of made
an effort like, hey, we found this woman and she
was dressed like this, and she's just a little you
know those little bootlets, that boot kind of things that
they used to wear around I want to say eighteen

(01:28:06):
ninety five or something like that, and he said, hey,
I remember when I received those, and there was one
person who wore such a small shoe and her name
is Pearl O'Brien. That's how they idd her, okay, because
what he had taken her head off for that very reason,

(01:28:27):
they saw her face they could recognize I was going
to lead to them, which two men eventually hung for
the murder. Okay, And believe it or not, sometimes that's
that's the way it works out. But yeah, you know,
what's uh, what's the And I hate to say it,

(01:28:49):
but I don't know. I don't want to sound like
an old phoge, but god, I want to say that sometimes.
And I guess the only the only way I can
describe it is when you've been around long enough, you know,
I look at some of these movies sometimes, especially that

(01:29:09):
they're ultra violent or slasher films, even though ones that
started coming out in the eighties, and it was like,
you know, once upon a time they you know, yeah,
people got killed or in the movies, but they would like,
sh oh, show a little bit of blood against the wall,
but you would never see the actual killing of a person.
And as we've become desensitized to it, I say, I

(01:29:31):
want to say, and as even as kids grow up,
and it's just in even the video games, which a
lot of times they're killing people and whatever. And I
look at it, you know, and I think, man, part
of this has got to contribute to Don't get me wrong,
I'm not going to say, it's going to make you
a killer. But there's something that I think that whereas
before people would be appalled like oh my god, somebody

(01:29:53):
getting killed, or you would see a movie like oh
my god, because even now I look at this and
I was like, man, this is not entertainment. I forget this.
There's something that you know, what we were talking about,
that taboo that we have amongst either moral compass or
society that I think, even as human beings would just
like reject it. It's that's it's eroding. That's eroding, all right.

(01:30:18):
And it's a shame because I think every once in
a while, this is what produces some of these people
that whether because they were traumatized as kids, they were
abused some in some cases some were born this way,
lack of a conscience, or just something that happens that

(01:30:39):
they it's that jump. How's that that jump from being angry?
They do it easier? Why because hey, they've seen it
In some cases even now, I'm sure a lot of
a lot of people are aware. Even some of the
fame that some of these murderers get when they get arrested.

(01:31:03):
It's like appealing in some weird way, you know, and
and by the way, I've read of stories, because I
do a lot of research, I've read of stories. This
is murders that took place in the nineteen twenties and
nineteen thirties and the nineteen forties where some of these
murderers they they wanted because back then it was newspapermen
who were being set out. They wanted to be in

(01:31:23):
that fame thing. It's not a recent thing like everybody thinks,
so everybody's, you know, filming somebody else. No, no, no, no,
they did you have guys And I want to say
not all the time, because there was women in there
also that they were like they were getting ignored. It's like, hey, yeah,
I'll give my story the newspaper, the reporters you know,
come in and they weren't because they wanted that fame.

(01:31:44):
Part of them wanted to like, I want to get
that recognition. And you're like, do you realize you're sinking
your ship real quick? And remember back then, a lot
of times they would end up being executed. By the way,
in other words, there was the death penalty. End of
the death penalty was quick. Maybe it's get one appeal,
but usually within a year two years the most you

(01:32:05):
were either gonna be sitting in the electric chair or
getting hung and something about I want to get recognition
and I want to see my name in the newspaper.
And even now I want to say that part of that,
even what John was describing about his fictional serial killer.

(01:32:25):
You know, I want to get a recognition. I want
to be known. I don't want to be ignored, Like
I'm so brilliant. Somebody's got to be aware of this. Well, yeah,
that's pretty true to life. Yeah, telling you well, anyway, guys,
I hope you like this show. I hope you like
this interview with John Vines. Please I will put a
link to his the book side in Amazon. Go and

(01:32:48):
check it out. And then, like you said, he's already
got another one that's probably gonna sounds like probably next year.
And you know, and yeah, I think about all the
I don't know, just suspicious looks at your neighbor. I'm
only kidding. I'm only kidding. Sometimes it's the real normal

(01:33:09):
ones you gotta worry about, not the weird ones. Anyway.
Sign up for my newsletter on Substack. Go to mppelister
dot com. Go to Miami ghost Chronicles dot com again.
Links to everything are there, whether it's the stories of
the supernatural, supermarnatural, storytime, nicead Diary, aerie news, Strangers of
fiction stories, which is articles, Everything is there. Links to

(01:33:33):
everything is there? All right? Like I said, I will
be putting out the Halloween show and then probably I
am going to do the Christmas horror story ghost stories
reading that I do every year. There's gonna be the
third year I do it. I think. Before you know it,
we'll be in twenty twenty six. And time flies when

(01:33:55):
you're having fun and even when you're not so. Anyway,
thank you all for coming and spending this time with me,
and I will be seeing you next week. Until next
time

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