Is TikTok in Trouble? | Podfest 2024 Recap & The Future of Events | Panel (Ep35) - StreamLeader Report with Ross Brand

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
TikTok loses access to some of itsbiggest musical artists. What does that mean
for TikTok? Is the and nearand Podfast twenty twenty four was a great
event. Does this mean the returnof big events or are we moving towards
smaller events in the general rather thana few big events here and there.

(00:28):
So we will discuss all of thosethings next on the stream Leader Report Live
Panel with Rebecca Gunter, Rob Greenley, Claudia Santiago and Ross Brand. It's
the stream Leader Report Live Panel.Creators talking to creators, raw, real
and unscripted, and sometimes they saythe quiet part out loud. Here're your

(00:51):
hosts, Claudia Santiago, Rebecca Gunter, Rob Greenley, and Ross Brand.
Welcome to the stream Leader Report LivePanel. And last week we were off,

(01:17):
Rob and I were at Podfast.The week before, Rob, Claudia
and I were talking about the launchof the one hundred Predictions Volume four book.
Rebecca wasn't able to be here,but sent in a couple of videos,
one of which I played a partof and the other I'm going to

(01:37):
play in just a second. Wehad a great panel joining us. We
must have had what ten twelve peoplein and out who were contributors to the
book. But unfortunately, Rebecca whowas such a big part of this book
writing the forward along with Claudia andRob, and she sent in a little

(02:02):
message for everybody last week. OhHello, I didn't see you there.
I was just ordering ten paperback copiesof one hundred Live Streaming and Digital Media
Predictions, Volume four by Ross brandChing and send Hey, Ross, Hey,

(02:30):
Rob Hey, Claudia Hey, StreamLeader Report, Beauty Bubble, and
everyone in the comments. I'm notable to make the show today, but
I am absolutely there in spirit celebratingthe launch of this very special collaboration or
one hundred and thirteen thought leaders,digital media creators, podcasters and content geniuses

(02:53):
come together to throw their prognostications intothe ring, into the zeitgeist, as
it were, and predict the futurefor our industry and the impact it will
have on the world tomorrow and formany years to come. Congratulations Ross,
you are the man, and Claudiaand Rob. It was so incredible to

(03:17):
collaborate on this creative approach to theforward for this year's edition. This was
one of the funnest things I didall year, and it was awesome to
get to know you and weave yourvision for one hundred predictions along with Ross's
vision for one hundred predictions and createsomething better than the sum of its parts.

(03:40):
This is a true collaborative effort andI am so here for it.
Congratulations Collaboration Nation, Ross Brand onehundred predictions for live streaming and digital media.
Extremely to report, and again ourfriends in the comments. This is
an epic milestone and I'm so happyto be here for it. Thanks for

(04:08):
Rebecca. That was really really cool. Uh now I'm a little misty we
missed you two weeks ago. Imean, it was such a fun time,
but I appreciate it. Broke myheart, man, it broke my
heart not to be here, butit was circumstances beyond my control. So
thanks for letting me participate, andI truly was there in spirit. Anything

(04:30):
surprised you about the book launch orthe experience once we get past the writing
of the book kind of I assumethis is your first time going through a
launch where your name's on the cover, So yeah, that's surreal but also
kind of a dream come true.So what I didn't expect was I guess

(04:53):
the like international skyrocketing bestseller list,And what I did expect was to see
a bunch of people really come togetherin community and share how much it meant
to them to participate in the projectand be a part of it. I
had foemos Man with all these beautifulpeople in the comments and community and Fomo

(05:15):
while you guys were on Podcast twentyfour. So, Claudia, I think
next year we need to have extremelyto report live live live panel at Podfast.
I think you both have to goto Podfast, right. I think
that's like pretty much a wrap rbcauseI can't take it. I couldn't take
the phone. Plus, Rob doesn'thave enough to do all these down there.

(05:39):
He could do that, he coulddo another show. What's one more?
Just when you're not inducting people intothe podcast or Hall of Fame?
Right, I gotta say Rob wasone of the stars of podcast by far.
Not only did he bring the Hallof Fame back, but he brought

(06:00):
the keynote speaker and Hall of FameMC doctor Drew, who is a big
hit. At the event. Igot a little bit of video of Rap
talking about the Hall of Fame.Big picture of what this event, the
Hall of Fame represents to the podcastingcommunity, and I think one of the
things that the community has expressed tome over the years is just how we

(06:27):
as an industry value the contributions ofpeople that have started this medium and really
built it and really inspired so manyothers to create podcasts and to build successful
shows. And that's really what theHall of Fame is about, as to
recognizing those individuals that have contributed significantly. We've inducted about I believe forty one

(06:50):
inductee so far at the end ofthis event. Yes, okay, and
so that is, you know,we've got a long way to go.
There's a lot more inductees. Sothat was rob during the Hall of Fame
ceremony, and just a taste ofdoctor Drew because he really got into the
spirit of it and was really Ithink he's not just a famous person who

(07:14):
does a podcast, but somebody whoreally appreciates what the medium is and was
happy to be around people from alldifferent walks of life, in all different
levels who were doing podcasts and thendid brain I think the freedom you should
go directly to your audience. Italked about it this morning. To me,

(07:35):
that was such an astonishing reality.So let's get to it again.
This is the twenty twenty four PodcastHall of Fame induction ceremony, okay,
and today marks the sixth induction ceremony. And of course people liked my longtime
brand of Adam Brola will be inductedJesse thorn in br So anyway, that's

(07:58):
doctor Drew. And it was agreat, great event all around podcast a
remarkable job by Chris Kremitzos and theteam at Podfast to build the event back
up after all the lockdowns and theshutdowns and the starts and stops, to
build it back up to at leastwhere it was prior. And maybe even

(08:20):
more people came this year than intwenty twenty when they had really gotten to
their heights just before everything was kindof taken away. So I guess a
question I'll just throw out on tothe panel is where are we going with
events? Or are we going backto big industry events? I mean,

(08:43):
I would call this for the podcastingindustry probably the second biggest event in the
world, So this would be anational international style conference or are we going
smaller? We going virtual? Youguys see coming up in the next you
know, six to twelve months.I have a question. Sure, if

(09:07):
that's the second largest, what's thefirst one? Podcast Movement would be the
largest. Where's that? What doesthat happen that moves around this year?
It's in DC? Is that wouldyou say? That's accurate? Rob?
Yeah? And then the podcast theEvolutions event is happening in la in March,
and that's that's probably a little bitsmaller than podcast So they actually have

(09:30):
two events now. I would saythat the probably the rival with podcast Movement
is the Podcast Show in London.So it's it's about probably about the same
size as far as attendees as PodcastMovement, But that's that's more of representing
the industry from a you know,a global perspective or really more. I

(09:52):
mean that event pulls from Europe andand kind of the mainly from Europe,
but more and more people from theUnited States are going over there too,
which is bumping their numbers. Yeah. I was over there as a speaker
a couple of years ago, andthere's talk about me going back here again
here here in May is when thatevent is held. But yeah, so

(10:16):
I would say that the podcast Showand Podcast Movement are kind of rivals right
now, and I would say podfastscould you know, it's going to be
interesting to see in the next yearwhether or not podcasts kind of matches those
two other events, because clearly backin twenty twenty, it was looking like

(10:37):
Podfasts was going to be the biggestevent in the country. That's the direction
that it was going. And thenCOVID hit us and really kind of knocked
them back a little bit and itmade them really more of a virtual event
for a couple of years. Butyeah, this past year for podcasts was
a little not this year, butthe prior year to this was a little

(11:01):
smaller and the event was kind ofkind of struggling to come back a little
bit. But now I think thisyear we're over the hump, so we
could see these three events be kindof in parallel the next year. Follow
up question, Rob, what isthe podcast or Hall of Fame and how
does one get inducted into it?Hashtag asking for a friend. Yeah,

(11:24):
it's actually a common question. I'mgetting to Actually I've done a couple of
podcasts talking about that. I didone yesterday on the New Media show.
I had Tom Webster from Sound SoundsProfitable on and formerly with Edison research on
and we talked essentially extensively about thepodcast Hall of Fame on the New Media

(11:46):
show, So if you wanted tosee a deeper analysis of that good plug,
that would be a good place togo. And then I did a
full episode on the Hall of Fameprior to that as well. So yeah,
I'm excited about the patial Hall ofFame. I've gotten a lot of
feedback from it that the induction andselection process probably needs to be broadened to

(12:07):
a larger number of participants in theselection as well as the picking and the
voting. Who's picking, who's voting. It's currently the selection process is currently
being done by all of the pastinductees right now, so it is a

(12:28):
little bit kind of enclosed in thatcommunity right now. I mean a lot
of the folks that have been inducted. There's about forty one inductees right now,
and of that group, that's thegroup that really kind of picks who
the inductees are. But I dothink that I've heard some feedback on this

(12:48):
that that needs to be widened toinclude other people that are not necessarily have
been inducted to create kind of abetter pool. And I think that that
actually wise too. But the criteriareally is is it's really focused on impact
and longevity to some degree, butit's not a not a big criteria,

(13:11):
but it's really about performance being asignificant influence in the development of podcasting from
kind of a historical perspective, butincreasingly I'm feeling that we need to embrace
more kind of modern, more currentpodcasters in consideration for this. But I

(13:31):
do think you know, to havekind of like it's a little bit like
a lifetime achievement award of sort.So you can't really have a lifetime achievement
award given to someone that's limit podcastingfor two years. That doesn't really make
a lot of logical sense because itwasn't like a podcast awards. And I
think there's a lot of people conflatingthe two together and wanting us to pick

(13:54):
Hall of Fame inductees that are fromlike the sports genre or the comedy genre,
or the you know that kind ofstuff. I think there's a tendency
to want to do that, andthat's not what is here. I think
it's to recognize people that are notnecessarily on microphone. There are people that
are working behind the scenes to makethis this this happen as well. And

(14:15):
a great example of that is whatone of the inductees that we had this
year was Lorie Simms, who wasthe former president of Lipson, who actually
never went to events, never donea podcast, but was one of the
key drivers of the early years ofbuilding the very first podcast hosting platform so

(14:37):
and was a critical player in that. I actually I was hired by Laurie
to work for Lipson and worked withher for many years myself. But I
think it's a it's another example ofit's not just about podcasters, persue,
It's about podcasting really, uh,and the business and the function of it
and who's had an impact on helpingothers become podcasters and become successful and recognizing

(15:03):
those people that have had a bigimpact. And that's that's the intent of
this well something for all of ourcreators up and coming. Yeah, everybody
should should strive for being a yeah, having a big impact on the medium.
And it's not always it's not aneasy thing or something that everyone's going

(15:26):
to be able to achieve, butit's we definitely want to recognize those that
have been able to make that kindof an impact, like an Adam Kroller
or whatever, and I can Ican go at nauseum about Adam Kroller about
the various elements over the history ofthe podcasting meaning that he's had a significant
impact on and there's many people thatmay not know that. So that's that's

(15:50):
another thing. Got into it early, right, I mean he well he
started about two thousand and nine iswhen he started. I was kind of
in contact with his team at thetime and what was helping him back in
those days. And but really Adamreally, I mean he's in the Guinness
Book World Records for having the mostdownloaded podcast in history. And then he

(16:10):
also was pivotable in overcoming a podcastingpatent troll that was that was like a
dark cloud over the industry that thisone company owned the process of podcasting and
was going to was going around startingto sue companies. And so Adam really
stepped up to the plate and dida bunch of fundraising and did did advocacy,

(16:34):
got on mainstream media talking about thispatent troll that was really having having
a significant impact on people's confidence inthe medium. Well, you conn even
make an argument that The Man Showwas a proto podcast. Well, I
don't want to go there about thatshow. That's that's that's politically incorrect to

(16:56):
talk about that show. I remember, I remember remember when it was on,
so oh I do too. Yeah. The other the other person who
I was really happy to see wasDaniel J. Lewis. I mean,
when you talk about contributions to theindustry, I mean he's obviously an accomplished

(17:17):
podcaster and has an audience and allthat, but he's developed products. He's
done so many how to and andhelpful videos and instructional things that he's done,
even things he's just done on hisown to figure out what would be
good for people in the industry.He's an example of somebody who it wasn't

(17:37):
necessarily with a big company, buton his own he made a pretty big
impact in helping other people. AndI think the industry in general, I
think right, and I think alot of things that Daniel contributed to the
medium was really challenging the norms ofthe medium to some degree, and questioning

(18:00):
what what people were saying about themedium, and and really kind of focusing
on the data and focusing on thefacts of the medium to help people have
a better understanding. Because we've we'vebeen battling for many years around kind of
hate to say, but kind ofmisinformation in the podcasting space too, and
people being given bad advice and inbad direction, and so he's had a

(18:26):
big impact on that too. Beforewe get to TikTok, because I know
Rebecca's top TikTok, I do wantto bring up a few people who had
predictions or analysis in in the bookabout events and and see what you all
think about comments. Brian Wallace isactually putting together a regional event this year.

(18:52):
He says we'll see a rise inmore thoughtful, focused and targeted regional
in person events taking ship ape inthe coming years. People crave human contact.
Laura Davidson's representative and a marketing leaderat Shure, and she's been at
all the big events, it seemsin the podcasting and broadcasting industries. She

(19:15):
says we'll see a movement towards smaller, more personalized creator conferences and events,
and a move away from large scaleshows. Murcy Calli puts on events at
be Present LLC. She says microevents are golden for those trying to stand
out, high touch, immersive experiencesfor intentional conversations and serendipitous Moments and Mike

(19:41):
Alton works for Agora Pulse and isalso a consultant I believe with other companies.
He's definitely big in putting on eventsand well known for that in the
industry. He says businesses will beforced financially to reinvest in virtual events,
both from a marketing demand gen perspectiveand from a consumption perspective. So there

(20:07):
are four people who are highly involvedin the event industry who are all looking
at small or virtual and we're justwalking away from what I would consider at
least national, maybe international, certainlyNorth American, although there were people from
all over the world there event.And so what do you guys think on

(20:32):
what we experience versus what's being predictedfor twenty twenty four? Ross, I
have a question again, I'm sorryto absolutely check everything with the question on
the last slide ye, what's thedifferent? What does demand gen versus consumption?
I think you mean live versus likego back and watch the replay,

(20:52):
But could you tell the newbie creatorsout there, like myself, what those
two words mean from a marketing demandgen perspective and from a consumption perspective.
If he's talking about what, oh, go ahead. He's talking about from
the company's perspective. So demand is, you know, building up demand,

(21:17):
I believe, generating demand for theproducts at those events right at the events.
And then the other is the actualconsumers buying the products and how many
sales do you get? Right,So it's building up awareness and brand recognition.
Is that how you would you wouldlook at it ron? Yeah?

(21:37):
And the other part is actually howmany do you move any products at the
event? Yeah? I think you'reseeing it a little bit. I mean,
one of the comments I can't rememberthe person's name, but was from
Sure is that some of those hardwaremanufacturers are have been pulling out of the
larger events, so they're not participatingin the bigger events, and I see
them kind of shifting over to thinkingmore about local and regional events. And

(22:00):
I'm I've been seeing that trend fora while now. And I'm also seeing
that the big events have been kindof stagnant in their growth because it's expensive
to travel now. It's expensive forhotels, airport, airline costs are going
up and we're being I hate tosay ross, but we're being disincentive bise

(22:25):
to travel now because it's so expensive, and that's that's one of the side
effects. And I'm involved in acouple of local like tri state events here
in New York area and New Jerseyand stuff like that that are kind of
local, local meet up type events, and I can definitely see those taking
off. And I know both ofpodcast movement as well as podcasts have been

(22:51):
doing an active campaign about local events, right, so they're going to the
people instead of expecting the people tocome to their big events. Well,
that that answers Ross's question as well. Pretty well, what do you think
I think for companies like sure,they're pretty well known now, I mean,

(23:14):
like their microphones are are all overthe industry. Yeah, this is
the number one microphone and podcasting nowclearly. So if sales aren't a big
point at some of the big events, it's probably better to go to smaller
events, save the money, notpay for the big spend in the big
outlay and all that, and thentalk to the customers directly and get feedback

(23:38):
and you know, even sell productsor do a giveaway or what have you,
and come away really strengthening relationships withpeople who are like your ambassadors out
in the field. Yeah, Imean, if you have a staff that's
scattered all over the country. Youknow, it may be cheaper to just
have your staff drive to a localevent and just you know, you can

(24:02):
save a lot of money and asyou're going to reach more people, but
you may reach people in a differentway. I think from looking at the
expo at podcast, it was definitelybusy and it seemed like the brands that
were there were getting a lot outof it. But the bigger manufacturers that
you used to seeing at these eventsweren't as present. And I don't know

(24:26):
whether that also helped open up opportunitiesfor other companies or or whether there's just
a hunger to reconnect in person withyou know, companies and learn about new
companies and stuff like that. Butthe expo was definitely busy, and it
seemed like the companies that bought inwere getting a lot of attention. I

(24:48):
think it's the quality of the connectionsthat oops, we lost Claudia there right
at the wrong time. She's back. I'm not sure why that's happening,
but I'm back. You were sayingit's about the quality of the connection,

(25:11):
but I couldn't resist. And youknow, it's like a grassroots revolution that
is happening more where people are gatheringto rich in and deepen those connections.

(25:33):
I know, personally, I'd ratherinvest in a going to a smaller conference
rather than one where it's just somassive that you're really not building those relationships.
So anyways, in entertainment, westill have the large events. I'm
just gonna say, you know,but there's the smaller ones too. In

(25:57):
the fashion industry, all the fashionshows they're they're they're not massive, massive
event when when they do around them, they are pretty cool. Claudia,
what's the number one event you liketo go to for your within the entertainment
field? What's your what's your jam? And why do you do it?

(26:19):
So industry event you mean or aconserative industry event. Uh? Yeah,
it would. It's more for methan where it's a media uh kind of
event. I'm I'm not really likenam I'm not really a gear junkie,

(26:40):
although Bruce would say different. Youknow. No, don't get me wrong,
I love still going to those typesof events, but for me,
it's more I get a real whereI'm seeing the artists actually going to the

(27:00):
media boots and getting their interviews.I find that intriguing because to me,
I get to see the newby artiststhat was just barely trickling in years ago,
and all of a sudden you getto see their growth, you get
to see where their stories at,you get you know, as you kind
of walk around and you hear thisand anyways, that's kind of more of

(27:23):
my jam. So I'm not somuch the gear junkie. Yeah, am
was going on at the same timeas Podfasts, right, Yes, I
could also pull some big brands awayas well, but I think, I
think maybe it's also about engaging withthe kind of people who go to an

(27:48):
event like podfast at you know,like I say, smaller, smaller venues
and smaller regional events. Let's moveon to TikTok because TikTok recently lost it's
music rights to use BMG music.Rebecca, this is your jam, this
is this is it's my jam.But this is a Claudia story and this

(28:11):
affects her personally. You go aheadfirst, Claudy. Well, first of
all, I just want to saythat in Canada we can't even monetize,
but yeah, TikToker on anything TikTokoh. Yeah, so it's really it's
really wild because you know, it'snot just TikTok. I'm dealing with Canada.

(28:34):
So Canada you don't get news likea Montize anyways. But you know
what, we go around that stuffand we figure out a way to do
some things. So anyway, butTikTok. Yeah, the labels Universal especially
has had an issue with TikTok.Now what's interesting And I don't know if
you guys read the lot. Ithink it was a last link I sent

(28:56):
in our group. But part ofthe beef, and this is where our
AI conversation also comes in. Partof the beef is some social platforms are
now instead of you know, whenyou do a post or a story or
real you can actually choose music froman artist, like you can look up

(29:18):
my stuff and you'll find me there. But when you choose music to add
to your post, what's happened isthat social platform has had an agreement with
the record label and the distribution companies. Okay, So what's happening now with
AI is there's also the AI generatedartists. So you got the human artist,

(29:45):
then you got the AI drake.Okay, So this is part of
the beef with TikTok and the recordlabel. The record label is going uh
uh no, no, no,no, no no, You're not going
to replace AI for my artists.See what I'm saying, right, And
then so this whole other controversy.Now, TikTok's the first one that's done

(30:08):
this with this record label. Butyou know, to give you an example,
like there's big names on that label, like Taylor Swift, Like how
many people on TikTok aren't doing theirlittle post and adding Taylor's stuff on their
Why? Because she's trending, she'syou know, got great music. And
yeah, so you know, eitherTikTok's totally shot themselves in the foot or

(30:32):
they're being forward thinking. See whatI'm saying, Because I'll tell you something.
I did a post I think itwas I did a real on Facebook
and I chose this music and Ithought, man, that's just it.
That's a killer trap for this certainpost I'm doing. And it was it
was a robot. It was anAI. Yeah. And now my issue

(30:59):
now is if I want to repurposethat, some platforms won't take it.
So when you say that the AIare they replicating artists music? Is that
what they're doing it with a closefacsimile to the artist music is that yeah,
both both rob they are doing that, but they are also creating just

(31:23):
AI artists, Oh, just completelyfabricated artists. Okay. Yeah, So
now this this record label doesn't wantthat because they want to protect their songwriters.
Again, I went back to thewriters, their songwriters. They want
their songwriters to be compensated and tobe you know. And so what this

(31:44):
record label is saying no to isplatforms that are going to allow the AI
at a bigger speed than some otherplatforms. So is there any truth to
TikTok claim that the United Music Groupis only doing this to protect their their

(32:07):
own financial interests. I am unclearright now, to be honest, because
it seems that the record label isaccusing TikTok of having a separate agenda okay,
which I'm not quite sure yet whatreally is happening. But then also

(32:37):
and I get this, TikTok tryto come under with the dollar value for
the licensing as well, and probablybecause they can get a cheaper if we've
got more AI generated content. Hello, I put a piece of media up

(32:57):
that really is a beautiful kind ofTLD are if you want me to play
it from this creator about this scenario. Her name is her name is v
and the plot the program is calledunder the Desk News and this is one
of the most prolific TikTokers that thereis. So I thought this was a
really nice summary, like me toplay it fire away? Okay, awesome?

(33:20):
Are we there? Ross, tellme if we can. Okay,
Dottie, We're just getting ready forbed. But then Alex sent me this
article. TikTok is going to losetheir ability to use music on the app.
Universal Music Group is threatening to pullthe song catalog from TikTok. And
what would the TikTok app be withoutthe music? I mean, almost every

(33:42):
single video uses music. Now,the music groups are complaining that TikTok has
made a billion dollar business that's amusic business, without paying the proper royalties
to the artists. And TikTok hasreally gotten into the music business. I
mean, they did a huge musicfestival called in the just a couple of
weeks ago. They've got the Elevateprogram that's supposed to identify emerging artists.

(34:06):
But here's the thing. TikTok hadbeen trying to negotiate with Universal and Warner
and the other music companies to geta fair cut for artists and a fair
cut for TikTok. TikTok is arguablyone of the biggest music distribution and discoverability
platforms there are, and they wantto make a direct deal with artists to
license their music instead of going throughthe orgs. You know, what,

(34:28):
do you think would you use TikTokif you couldn't use music for a little
while? Do you hope that TikToknegotiates directly with artists to use their music?
This is quite the shake up thatdoes add another mentioned to this,
Yeah, this discussion. Yeah,so I just want to kind of for
those that are watching and don't reallyunderstand how artists get their music on a

(34:52):
platform. It's like this, Okayif you're an independent artist or okay,
so if you're an independent artist oryou're a record label. What happens is
you can't just go knock in directlyon TikTok store and go, hey,
I got great music, Can youthrow it on? Can you spin it?
You know right, you can't.What happens is it goes through another

(35:13):
party called a distribution company. Okay, So recordar labels usually have a deal
with a distribution company. Okay.So that's if you think about it on
a business end. Distribution company iscollecting dollars somewhere, okay, right,
independent artists goes to distribution company.They've got to also pay to play,

(35:37):
so to speak. Okay. Thenafter distribution it goes to the Spotify's,
the tiktoks, the Facebook's, theall that. Okay, they all those
have agreements with the distribution company.Without that in the middle, it ain't
happened. Yeah, And those arethose distribution companies. One of them,

(36:00):
one of the biggest ones is calledCD baby. That's right. So what
happens here is the independent artist evento get it to the distribution house to
pay record labels same thing. Okay, you've got songwriters songwriters here, you
got producers, you got musicians,you got studio costs, you got I

(36:20):
mean, to produce even a singleis even if you do it in your
freakin' basement. Okay. But atthe end of the day, I'll tell
you something, I personally know huge, huge name songwriters and some of their
checks and their monthly check is likethirty cents, yeah, maybe a buck.

(36:44):
Hey, and they all joke around, they go, hey, who
wants to go for lunch? Youknow, like okay, so what happens
here. It is a business,so everybody gets a cut. So by
the time now I want to saythis, TikTok is paying. It's not
the See sometimes when news like thiscomes out, people go, ah,
yeah, TikTok's like chipping off everyone. No, I can see in my

(37:07):
dashboard that I make money from theTikTok. My distribution company shows every single
platform and you know where it isbringing in money, so they are paying.
So sometimes you know, news getsensational and people get the wrong idea

(37:28):
about stuff. Is what I'm tryingto say here. So what's interesting now
is this was once upon a timewas a human artist, a record label
with human artists. Now we gotAI where the record labels are even creating
a new branch of artists, whichis their AI artists. The issue is

(37:51):
all this has come about so fastthat social media, just the platforms haven't
even in there in place there whatare they're going to do? So this
is where it becomes really messy.It's that down be low there well,
and the labels don't have the bestof reputations really for looking out for the

(38:15):
interests of the artists either. Sothat's the other end of the spectrum here
we have to realize is that UniversalMusic Group is a business that profits from
their creators, and they're if they'rein the middle of this negotiation, they're
going to think about their interests typicallyahead of the artists. So TikTok is

(38:35):
accurate in that little subhead that theysaid that that, but that's a typical
that's not directly connected to this particularcontroversy. It's just generally kind of the
undertow of the industry is that thecreators are the ones that get left on
the sidelines and all these deals youmentioned AI and from the from the point

(38:58):
of the record label or distributors,is the idea of creating AI artists so
that the actual artist has no rightsto that money that the AI artist,
well it's linked to an artist.Is the artist? Is the AI really

(39:19):
this like replicating exactly the artist andthe music or is it creating something that's
probably just a beat, different enoughthat it's an original piece of music.
Yes, I would say that thatwould be what they're doing. Yeah,
And in addition to that, I'dbe very curious because one of the things

(39:39):
that actually is I find to becompletely delightful on TikTok is when one musician
will stitch on to another musician andcreate a whole new thing by like adding
to it, and then the drummerwill come in and add to it.
So it's almost like sampling happening inreal time. Like the evolution of the
creativity and the collaboration is off thecharts. And who gets to profit from

(40:04):
that? That's in the context.You're so right, Rebecca, And that
is such a beautiful thing because it'slike it's a collaborative thing and it's a
whole new thing. But this iswhere the record labels are going. Wait
a minute, yeah, wait aminute, Like once upon a time,
Like I think we're up to aminute now on Facebook, But once upon

(40:28):
a time, the deal was youcould they could only have in their library
a fifteen second clip of that music. Okay, So now where the record
labels are going, well, waita minute, because technically it can be
plagiarism and way back you could seepeople taking someone to court for you know,

(40:50):
four beats of a song or youknow, if the melody was so
close or the hook and the songwas so close they could take them to
court for plagiarism. So this iswhere Universal is saying, and again you
don't it's unclear what the agendas reallyare because okay, some of these record

(41:13):
labels also later and use Taylor asan example again her own songs. They
wouldn't even give her catalog back toher. They would not. So what
she did is she good for you? She launched her whole cat you know,
her whole bunch of songs on herown because they were her songs.
Okay, So some of these labelsare getting you know, there's knickers in

(41:38):
a knot because exactly what you said, Rebecca is TikTok is too creative.
And with clips of those things thatare being reproduced, who's getting the money
that original songwriter? And like Isaid, there's so many costs songwriters who

(42:00):
we all enjoy their songs, andproducers and radio and marketing dollars everything else
has made those their way into ourhearts. Those songwriters who came up with
that first idea are living on craftdinner, right. That's been the whole

(42:22):
fight through the ages. And whileit's a beautiful thing to be a songwriter.
It's not a huge money making thing. So some of these labels say
they're fighting for their artists, butare they really. So that's why years
ago many artists peeled away from thatand began to be independent artists. And

(42:47):
I'll just shut up here in aminute, but I can get on a
rent with us. So here's thething. Years ago, the artists were
being dollars were being put in tothe artists through a label. They were
all fixed up. They were told, yeah, you don't go you don't
talk directly to your audience because artistsdidn't do that, you know, all

(43:07):
that kind of byes, right,And then the thing is the minute that
artists wasn't you know, eighteen yearsold or sixteen years old anymore, it's
like, okay, we're gon,we're gonna move on and we're gonna put
our development dollars into the up andcoming. Well what happened then is the

(43:29):
labels let go of so many amazingartists and guess what they had their database.
The artists had no conton, hadno business, they had no The
record label held onto the whole businessstructure. So it left all these artists,
which are amazing without a business,and meanwhile they were the writers,

(43:53):
they were the performers, they wereokay. So that's where years ago many
artists split up from the record labeldeals and began on their own. So
I'm thinking in the sense I haveis now we're at backhead another pivotal point
in history in this revolution thing,where we're going to see I don't know,

(44:16):
maybe instead of an independent artist,there's going to be another classification even
with that, where maybe artists willbe able to go direct to the social
platforms, or maybe they'll be ableto form their own groups, their own
networks of artists managed by run bymaybe a rotating board or something like that.

(44:40):
For you within the who you know, they all agree on certain principles
and you know, they're signing contractswith each other versus putting it into an
organization outside and saying, okay,I'll create the value. Now you can
monetize it and give me a pthe you Tube for you know, every

(45:01):
hundred dollars or whatever. I thinkthis is a sign that maybe labels like
the Universal Music Group and Sony Musicand stuff maybe losing losing control of the
artist because it is increasingly technologically possiblefor because CD baby already has those direct

(45:24):
relationships right now, that there's noreason TikTok couldn't go directly to CD baby
and establish those connections in those relationships. Now, what you need to understand
too, is even on YouTube,Okay, I'm just gonna throw this up,
Okay, there are artists that itis their music, it's their songwriting,
it's there's, there's everything, okay, And they'll put a song or

(45:47):
a video punt on YouTube with themeven performing it or whatever, and all
of a sudden, Universal Music Groupwill throw a copyright on it and they
prove this is ours. But Universalgroup won't even respond to the artist,
see what I'm saying. So inmedia on paper they say, oh,

(46:09):
we're all about the artists protecting theartists, right and everything. Well,
you won't even respond to the freakingartist. So you know, it's a
whole lot of eurocuracy. And sosometimes you know when they say, well
TikTok has an agenda, well,okay, well what's your agenda? Universal?
I know you're a business right right, there's a few extremely wealthy artists

(46:31):
who also watch YouTube, and ifsomebody's teaching how to play their song or
something, they'll throw a copy rightin and do you think, gee,
at AIDS seventy eighty something with hundredsof millions of dollars in the bank,
isn't there a better way to spendyour time? Right? Like, didn't
you do well enough off of thatthat if some kid wants to teach,

(46:54):
you know, for a few viewsor whatever, people had to play you
know your song, it's sick.It's not the same thing as as you
know, the average artist is gettingripped exactly. And you know what,
I love my songwriter. I wassome brilliant, brilliant, brilliant songwriters.
I love them all. But youknow, I've had the odd one too

(47:14):
that has that I'm just gonna say, poverty mentality where you know they're they
would Okay, I'm going to giveyou an example. I had one one
songwriter, and we spend time inthe studio, musicians, travel, producers,
the whole nine yards. We spenta lot of money. Okay,
this was going to be two radiosingles, and there was there was money

(47:36):
spent on radio packages. It allwent out to radio. I mean we're
talking a lot of dollars plus.Not only that, when I like a
song and I pour my heart andsoul into interpreting it as Claudia Santiago.
Okay, I don't and I takea long time to like when when they
pitch me songs, I go,okay, does this work with my story?

(47:57):
Does this work with the fabric ofwho I am? Does this work
with the audience that I've been growing? Like? What is it? How's
it going to connect? Okay?So anyways, we did all that,
and this songwriter was just kuckubret like. He he kept writing me saying,
I'm on a list of all theplaces you're performing at. I'm going to
contact them directly. I'm gonna dothis, I'm gonna do that. And

(48:21):
I mean, at the end ofthe day, this guy had no kouth.
You know what I'm saying. Ilike and and that could ruin my
relationship with my agents and the venuesand all that. So you know,
my manager just said, you know, we're gonna cut this guy off.
He's kucka Burra. But I'm tellingyou, like tens of thousands of dollars

(48:43):
lost gone, I still have thoseradio singles. I still have those radio
packages. We had to we hadto literally call all the radio stations and
get get them to take it offrotation. It was like, so,
I'm just saying, you know,songwriters are amazing, and I've really believe
in protecting their rights, just likeany writer at the end of the day,

(49:07):
like really, you know you're goingso, I mean, he blew
his He blew his chance at workingwith me and growing with me, and
haven't We always had a tradition whereonce the song's written and it's out in
the catalog of the world or whatever, it's open to interpretation and being covered,
and if it turns out to bea successful cover, then the writer

(49:29):
makes some money from it and increasestheir their fames. So now what we
do is when we're considering songs formy projects, because my projects are like
that, as you know, they'remultifaceted, is we actually tour the song
for quite a while. First,usually it's the other way around. Your

(49:53):
right record, produce, or release, then you tour it. I do
things the other way around. Iwork my song on stage first to see
if it's going to connect with myaudience. And through all that too,
you get to see who Because yoursongwriters are part of your team, your
producers are part of your team.That's has medians prepare for a special,

(50:16):
they get on the road to seeif the team's going to work, you
know, And so anyways, Idigress a bit, but it all ties
into this whole TikTok thing, andI think what we're going to see in
the entertainment industry is a new twiston how they're going to include the AI
and work with record labels with socialRebecca, you got a video for us?

(50:39):
I do. I thought this wouldbe you know, it's not perfect.
I kind of did on the fly, like trying to find something.
But I thought this was an excellentexample of why is music so important to
TikTok? Like, what are wetalking about here? Are we talking about
just you know, artists who wantto come on and build a platform there

(50:59):
for them else the music is likeso inherent in the DNA of anything that
happens on TikTok. And this conversationis so interesting because just if we take
a look at this little clip,it's not long, the song will be
instantly recognizable to you. And thesetwo creators are prolific on TikTok. They

(51:20):
do a lot of stuff like ina school, public school, cafeteria or
office, so if they are makingmoney, if this, if their content
is monetized and they've got music behindit, does you know when when when
does the composer of this instantly recognizablesong get theirs? If any, So,

(51:43):
let's play it? Are you ready? Do we have any concern about
playing it? What do you mean? I'm with the YouTube right? Oh?
Okay? Let me so to thepoint of, like, yeah,

(52:17):
I know it's a silly example,but that is a very famous track.
And if these ladies make money offof their content in which they're basically doing
a cover with wrapping paper tubes,this is how music is just inherent and
everything. Are there TikTok people whodon't use music, yep, But even

(52:39):
the word sound is like that's aclip or a sample? It is?
That would pretty much disintegrate the fabricof the creativity there. I thought it
was worth looking at. Are wetalking about just YouTube videos of people bands
on stage? We're talking about everysingle piece of creative content on TikTok And
you see, and we trust thejust distribution company deals that they've made with

(53:01):
those platforms to be compensating accordingly,okay, And like I can see that
TikTok's compensating what I create, youknow, through the distribution company. Uh
So, I'm not quite sure whatUniversal is getting out there other than they're

(53:22):
taking little clips and remixing and remixingand remixing, and then it's like okay,
TikTok. You know that's my artistthat's being really lost the chain of
custody, correct, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Is
your music on Instagram and YouTube aswell? Yeah? Shorts and reels?

(53:43):
Yes, yes, so, Imean you can you can, like if
you're posting a story or real evena post, you can you can look
for Claude Santiago and you'll find mysingles and my upcoming singles that you can
take and at. Now. Youknow, I'm just gonna say this.
Even with my my new fashion launch, I have a fashion boutique that I've
just launched for me, I douse some of my music and that I'm

(54:06):
always thinking about how I'm going tohelp compensate my songwriters because I'm so thankful
for them. So what I tryand do is use my music into some
of my posts and things. Butwith my fashion launch, part of our
strategy is that I use I choosemusic that's sung in Italian or Portuguese or

(54:30):
Spanish, so not necessarily English atall, because I want to bring that
international flare and flavor to my fashionboutique because that's part of my target market.
So what I do is I choosethat, and I'm really hoping that
I can still do that on TikTok. You know, if I can't,

(54:52):
that would be a real bummer,because you know, I trust, because
I want those artists also to benefitfrom me using their music and giving them
exposure. Final question, if anybodyhas a quick answer to this, either
knows factually or just has a theory, why are we hearing TikTok with Universal

(55:15):
and not shorts and not reels,not Instagram and not YouTube. It's just
a different deal probably, And it'salso a scale thing too. I think
a lot of the TikTok perception outthere is that that's the fastest growing platform,
right, so it's the biggest targetfor these labels, And the bigger

(55:38):
question I have for even for Claudiahere too, is are we seeing the
erosion of the irrelevance of these largelabels and this is an effort to hold
on to control and is it reallyin the best interest of the artists to
take this granular attack on these platforms, and is Universal Music Group more concerned

(56:02):
about their income stream than they areabout the artists. Yeah, you got
to remember once again, while arecord label is developing an artist, because
they're not just releasing the music,they're actually developing the artist. They have
in house people in our people,guys that I've worked with, and they

(56:28):
know their stuff and they know howto pull the story out of an artist,
how to develop that artist. It'sa beautiful science. Actually, one
day we'll talk about it more,but it is a beautiful thing. Artist
development is huge, and it's abeautiful thing. Record labels are a business.
They'll develop the artist, but theminute the newbies come along, they'll

(56:52):
develop that sixteen year old, eighteenyear old once you hit that twenty twenty
two mark, considered old already.It's like the modeling industry. It's like
Hollywood. No, it really is. And so they'll make a lot of
money with the young ones. Okay, So what I'm saying, rob is

(57:14):
it is a business. So theywill do what they need to do to
grow that business. Why, becausethey don't want to go bankrupt. They
want to stay in the biz.So really the artists concerned with the major
labels is not much other than let'slet's let's create a product. We're a

(57:34):
product. Let's create a product that'sgoing to shine and make us money that
we can hit and throw it onthe road while they craft inner on the
road and keep making money. Butthe minute that that that starts to dwindle
or that next sixteen year old comesalong, hey toodles. So all right,
gang, we're up against it.This has been a great conversation.

(57:57):
I'm sure we're going to continue asthe All these issues with new media and
old media and old business models andnew business models rushing up against each other
create for conflict and also for interestingconversation. Claudia, tell everybody about your
new line real quick. Where canwe find out more information about it?

(58:19):
Yes? Yes, go to BellaB B E L l A Santiago cotur
dot com, Bella Santiago cootour dotcom dot com. And it's named after
my grandma Bella, which means beautifulin Spanish and in and Italian, which
is some of my family roots.So anyways, you'll find all kinds of

(58:40):
really cool things in there for menand women and Uh, there's different collections.
There's even a rock collection in there. Uh, so you know you
can channel your rock and roll divaor you know, there's beautiful things,
glamorous things as well, and wehave also developing maternity and maybe collection in
there as well. So enjoy it, Rob. What's coming up on Podcasting

(59:05):
Tips tonight, seven pm Eastern.Yeah, I've got a terrific guest that's
a kind of an executive producer ofpodcasts out of Hollywood that's gonna join me
to talk about some of the philosophiesthat he brings to large scale podcasts and

(59:25):
share that with the group. SoI'm excited to have him on to His
name is Jack Levy, and heworks kind of also for iHeartRadio, but
he has his own media production companyout of la that works with some big
celebrities and things like that. Sowe're going to talk about kind of the

(59:47):
concepts that he works on with theselarger celebrity podcasts that makes them grow so
fast. So and it may bea tough conversation somewhat because a lot of
people that maybe our listener show arenot celebrities, so that is an advantage
and I'm going to challenge him onthis, Well, how can someone that
isn't a celebrity status be able toutilize these strategies and these techniques to grow

(01:00:12):
as well? And I assume thosefolks all have big teams as well,
like Okay, they're doing their podcastand they're yelling out to this person or
that person. Oh, get methe stats on this, or get me
the figures on that, or canyou pump up that video? Uh?
Ross, Yeah, come on,I'm ready to rebet to be Ross's lacking.

(01:00:35):
I'm gonna I'm gonna turn it onto you. What does a four
time best selling author who just releasedhis book have next on your horizon?
Taking a long nap? Oh,I just I just want to say what
an honor, absolute honor and joyhas been to be in this volume four
book. And uh yeah, I'mworking with all of you guys, like,

(01:01:00):
thank you, Ross, thank you, and thanks to everyone who contributed
us a wonderful experience. We didreally well with the new book. Rebecca
does Business in the Raw and Thestone Fruit Roll Up. Check her out
the YouTube channel stone Fruit roll Upand the website stone Fruit The Stone Fruit

(01:01:22):
st O N E D F RU I T thats same as the YouTube
channel. Thanks for popping by theroll Up today, Ross, Yeah,
great show today. Always like seeingthe big reveal of the branding statements.
All right, everybody for the streamLeader Report Live panel. Take care.
We'll see you next Thursday one thirtypm Eastern on Thursday, because that's when

(01:01:45):
we do that. Captain B.

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