Going Beyond Symptoms: Navigating Holistic Wellness with Dr. Matt Tolstoy

Could there be a link between a health challenge, chronic pain, or behavior pattern and another seemingly unrelated area of your lifestyle or past trauma? The short answer is yes, there could be because of the interconnectedness of the various systems of the body, one imbalance can create another. Healthcare is moving away from the model of isolating the symptoms and instead looking at the body, mind, and emotions as a whole to uncover the root of the problem to support healing. This emerging approach to health refers to holistic wellness. In this episode of Stronger U Radio, Stronger U Registered Dietitian Gianna Masi sat down with Dr. Matt Tolstoy to discuss the elements of holistic wellness and why he believes it’s the future of healthcare.

Dr. Matthew Tolstoy is a pain rehab practitioner, licensed acupuncturist, and Somatic Experiencing Practitioner (SEP) with a private practice in NYC and virtually. Additionally, he’s been on staff at New York City Ballet and an educator for Equinox Health Clubs. He helps many people with chronic pain and post-traumatic pain or stress-related conditions.

This multi-faceted conversation covers a lot of ground and touches on many important points including:

• The pros and cons of holistic wellness.
• The ethical gray areas in wellness and mental health due to the lack of boundaries (both personal and professional).
• The definition of wellness heartbreak: how it happens, how you can prevent it, and what’s important to consider.
• How to find a qualified and evidence-based holistic provider that you align with, plus the red flags to look for.

• The traits of a healthy therapeutic relationship.
• What Trauma is and isn't
• The effects of stress, and anxiety accumulation on the body
• What conventional and holistic medicine get right and wrong
• The idea of “destination happiness” and how in some cases it can be a response from your body to keep you safe and from experiencing something you’re trying to avoid.

This is one discussion you’ll want to tune into if you’re interested in taking a more well-rounded approach to your well-being or if you’ve struggled with unresolved health issues or behavior patterns.

Head to the Stronger U Community to share your thoughts.    
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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
All right, welcome to the StrongerYou Radio. I'm Gianna Massey, I'm
a registered dietitian and I'm your hosttoday and today I'm so excited to introduce
our special guest, Matt Tolstoy,and he is a pain rehab practitioner,
a licensed acupuncturist, and Somatic ExperiencingPractitioner or SEP. This is Stronger You

(00:24):
Radio, where nutrition is fun,diet trends are overrated, and we help
you take the guesswork out of eatinghealthy. Join us today with Stronger You
team coaches and friends as they discussedwhat it takes to become a Stronger You
today. Are you ready? Let'sget to it. Matt has a private
practice in New York City and virtuallyand in addition to his private practice,

(00:49):
Matt has been on staff at theNew York City Ballet and an educator for
Equinox Health Clubs. So I'm soexcited to have Matt on today. We
both met in Kostor at a functionalmedicine retreat. Shout out to Ben Hous
for cultivating that incredible place. Andwhat I personally love about you, Matt,
is that you are a licensed andevidence based provider, but also weaving

(01:14):
in that integrative space, which Iam as well, and so many of
our listeners and our coaches that strongeryou are also interested in, Hey,
these are the facts and what elseis out there to help somebody. So
I'm really excited for this conversation today. So welcome Matt. Yeah, thank
you so much. I'm really epsyched too for all the reasons you just
mentioned, because I think that thisis the direction that healthcare is going.

(01:38):
You know, we've seen the falloutfrom having incredibly isolated specializations in healthcare,
and we've seen how that doesn't reallywork if we don't include more interdisciplinary conversation
and interdisciplinary expertise. But you know, like probably what we'll get into talking
about today, there's there's like abalanced approach to that. You know,

(01:59):
there's it's good to have that interdisciplinarything like until it's not. And so
how do you learn to navigate thispart of healthcare that's like opening up.
That's really exciting that you know,both you and I we practice in that
overlapping zone that they're like, howdo we have a really grounded relationship to
that and do that in a waythat feels that just feels sincere and honest

(02:21):
and you know human, yeah,genuine connections and you know, effective interventions,
right, like is it effective ornot? So yeah. I think
there's lots of ways we could diveinto this, but I want to just
tell the listeners if you are curiousabout what are we actually going to be
talking about. I think some ofthe themes that Matt and I would like
to cover are, like Matt said, the pros and cons of holistic wellness,

(02:45):
the ethical gray areas in wellness,you know, the boundaries that exist
or don't exist. And what iswellness heartbreak? This is something that Matt
and I spoke about offline together aboutyou know, how we wanted to convey
that topic. So I'm curious,Matt, if you could ground us in
kind of this dark side of wellnessor what is wellness heartbreak? And just

(03:07):
to find that a little bit forthe listeners, Wellness heartbreak is it's this
thing that happens, and it happenedto me, it's happened to a large
percentage of the people that have foundtheir way to my office. And wellness
heartbreak is what happens when you know, we find our entry into wellness,

(03:29):
whether that's through like healing, likeyou have some sort of medical problem that
you're looking for some help with,or just lifestyle things you're trying to get
fit and take care of yourself,and you know, whatever your entry point
is, you get pulled into somebranch of wellness. And there's a part
of it that is, like wewere just saying, really exciting. There's
something that's it's like a new worldthat opens up to you where maybe you

(03:52):
didn't consider the connection between your sleepand your eating habits, and then you're
like, well, that's totally true. When I don't sleep as well,
I'm more irritable and I'm more susceptibleto falling into my old patterns with my
nutrition in ways that I'm trying tochange and I never saw that connection before.
And there's something really empowering and liberatingabout seeing all these connections. But

(04:15):
the heartbreak kind of comes when wecommit to a path for a long period
of time. And don't get mewrong, like it works, there are
things that happen that are really reallypositive. But holistic wellness culture has this
way of kind of promising the moon, like, look, we're gonna sort
this whole thing out from what youeat, to how you exercise, to
what supplements you take to like evenother things, what books you read or

(04:41):
like what types of home care productsyou should use or not use, And
we like stack all these things ontop of each other, like it's going
to promise that literally every single aspectof your life is going to change and
you're gonna be undeniably like completely healedand enlightened or something, and it just
never kind of works, like becauselife is complicated and we don't know everything

(05:02):
about the human system. It's stilllike a black box a bit. We
still need to investigate in certain ways. There's nobody who can just tell you
or know or give you the toolsto just know everything about yourself that you
need to know in any given moment. It's more open ended than that.
And when you spend enough time inwellness, I think we eventually come to

(05:25):
that conclusion like, oh, it'snot as straightforward and tractable in this whole
unifying principle of everything that we wouldlike it to be. But at the
same time, there are these connectionsbetween different areas of our health that are
important to recognize and finding our middleground between the two where it appreciates both
of those lenses. Is kind ofhard, and that's like at the core

(05:47):
of the heartbreak is that it's notthe idealized thing that we thought and finding
our way to these new truths isit takes some work. It takes some
intentional work. It's very hard.And I think about a lot of people,
and I'm sure everyone listening can relateto this a little bit. There's
people in our lives or maybe ourselveswhere we're like, Okay, I would
like to just take the pill andmove on with my life and not have

(06:11):
to uncover all of these things andwork so hard. So I think that's
one end, and then the otherend is like I will do anything it
takes. I will overhaul my life. I will do all these things.
I will change all my cleaning products, I will change my lifestyle, my
food, my the way I doeverything. And that's on the other end,
And so it can be really overwhelmingdepending on like where you fall.

(06:33):
And like you said, I thinkthere's a way to find this kind of
then diagram or congruent area where Okay, I'll do this, but I'm not
going to worry about that yet.And it's kind of prioritizing, and I
think that's where like practitioners like youor a really you know, valuable nutrition
coach RD like that they can helpyou see through the mud and the noise.

(06:57):
But yeah, it's really challenging,and so I'm curious about your practice
a little bit more for listeners,like who is coming to you? Because
I'm sure it's a diverse subset ofpeople, but I would love to hear
about who is coming to you.Sure, So the vent diagram here is
a good way of discussing this too, Like there's kind of two main groups
of people who find their way tome, and then there's a group of

(07:18):
people that has a lot of overlapbetween these two. And so the two
groups for me are chronic pain.I see a lot of people with just
pain they've been dealing with for along period of time that maybe traditional physical
therapy didn't work out for and theyhave body pain of some variety. And
then the other major category of peoplethat I see are people with psychological conditions

(07:41):
like post traumatic stress, anxiety orjust just stress related conditions in general.
And you can then begin to seehow there's a lot of overlap between them,
because if you've had, let's saysome sort of traumatic event like a
car accident or some really bad fallor something where you've got physically injured.
There might also be remnants of posttraumatic stress because of what you survived through.

(08:03):
You know that that might happen aswell, and so we need to
work on both layers of that toresolve both sides. You know, sometimes
if we work purely on your shoulderpain after the fall, but there's still
a little bit of a nervous system, just regulation that's running the post traumatic
reaction inside of you, and thatdoesn't get resolved. We can treat your
shoulder and maybe we'll get pretty far, but there will be an element that

(08:26):
doesn't fully resolve, and then weneed to address the way that the system
is realizing that Okay, that event'sover, I'm good, I'm all right,
my shoulder moves well, I'm stronger. Like, there are ways that
we have to bring those two partsof the human system back on the same
page together. And so that's kindof the area that that I live.
Listen, some people just come inand their neck just hurts, and we

(08:46):
just do some movement related things,we do some rehab, and their neck
feels better. And that's great.And there's some people where we're just working
on you know, they have panicattacks or something on the subway on the
New York City so subway. Butthen there's a lot of people that I
see where it's kind of a blendbetween the two, and that's really where
I exist in healthcare. Yeah,so they're kind of like, Okay,
what I'm doing is not working.And again it I know, when we

(09:09):
both speak, we're not putting downany other practitioners or things like that.
But that's when there's like, let'ssay there's something very niche, like you're
going to physical therapy and it's youknow, you've given it a good run
and things just aren't progressing like youwant. I feel like that's where this
overlapping care, like what you dois really effective for that person for example.

(09:33):
Yeah, And you're totally right thatit's it's not to it's not to
disparage either side of that equation.It's just to say that sometimes where somebody's
pattern lies for their symptoms is kindof in the middle of the two,
and if we're just reaching from oneside or just reaching from the other,
it's like we can't quite get there. But there are plenty of things that

(09:54):
both of those individual approaches work reallywell for. But there also was this
reality that there's kind of an overlapthat doesn't quite get served or caught by
traditional healthcare. And that's what I'mtrying to provide for people. Yeah,
and I think we should touch onwhy it doesn't get caught. And I
think one of the big reasons youand I both think, for to start,

(10:16):
is time. The time spent witha patient or a client. It's
sometimes not possible, and so that'swhen you hear people saying, well,
my doctor only spent five seconds withme. They quick check up and down
the list and then set me onmy way, and then they're not getting
hurt or listen to as much.And so for me, I think of
time. But I'd like to thinkof some other thoughts with you on that

(10:39):
well. I mean, you bringup really like the core thing that's at
the center of holistic wellness, whichis this reaction against rigid, authoritarian like
patriarchal biomedicine. Right that the day, like you said, the doctor spends
more time looking at the chart andlooking at you and doesn't really know you

(11:01):
that well, and honestly finds yourhuman complexity like not really that great,
and wishes that your picture was alittle bit simpler because they've got fifteen minutes
to figure this thing out, andthey've got a conveyor belt of people outside
the door. And so the holisticwellness culture is like a reaction to that.
It's like, no, it's goingto be this. There's the image

(11:22):
of like the soulful doctor, rightwho who spends time with you, who
knows your family, who really understandsdetails about you, and has a high
level of attonement with you, andso so sure, these are the things
that are at the core of wehave a problem in modern medicine. We
have a problem in healthcare that thereare these emotional needs for care that are

(11:43):
not being met, and how dowe meet them in a way that feels
human and real. And in additionto that, because the specializations have been
so chopped up and isolated for along period of time, there's not a
lot of expertise in understanding the overlapbetween certain symptoms. Because you can have
anxiety with migraine headaches, you canhave anxiety with GI symptoms, you can

(12:05):
have anxiety with your chronic pain,and those are all kind of very different
scenarios, and not many people understandthe difference between I've got anxiety and I've
got GI symptoms. What do Ido? Yeah, I doc will be
like, well, I don't reallyknow about that. I don't know.
That's not for me. And somebodywho's going to treat your anxiety doesn't know
anything about your GI symptoms either,And so this is where we have this

(12:26):
whole movement that's designed around how dowe fix this? And that goes well
and it goes not so well.There are two sides to it, really,
Yeah, And I think of evenlike myself to share with the listeners,
like I have a sertive colitis.I was diagnosed, you know,
when I was finishing my RD credentialand what was going on for me,

(12:46):
high high chronic stress, and soyou know that showed up. And why
I'm going into this is to paintthat picture of I needed someone very niche
aka a GI doctor to diagnose andhelp start that healing process. And so
that's great, and that was effective, and I am deeply appreciative and grateful

(13:07):
for all of that. But thenwhat am I going to do about it?
Right? Like, how is mylifestyle going to change to support one
this diagnosis, but also to supportme so that way I don't have future
you know, autoimmunes or things thatemerge because I know that it is possible.
And so that's when I think workingwith a provider like yourself to manage

(13:30):
all of that, that is wherekind of the magic happens. To not
be so like cliche, but youknow, it's like I have the conventional
medicine and then I have more supportto you know, help manage that.
So I just wanted to say thatbecause I feel like that's important for people
to know, like, yes,you do need you know your diseases manage,

(13:50):
but then what else can you doto make this healing better and really
be effective and expedite it for yourself? And I don't mean expedite like it
happens overnight, but I mean likehow can we move forward more? So,
Yeah, any thoughts on that?Yeah, Well, I think it
speaks to this level of integration thatis important and for the type of provider

(14:13):
that I am and want to be, that integration is the way as opposed
to a complete reaction against Western medicineand saying like they don't know anything they're
just completely all owned by big pharma. None of medical science is real.
Do your own research and like you'vegot all the answers yourself inside, you

(14:33):
know, no trigger Like I hatethat so much. I know your space
for everybody kind of yeah, Andliving where I live in healthcare, I've
treated a lot of people and havecome across a lot of people over time
who have been greatly greatly on bothsides, greatly harmed by traditional Western medicine
and also greatly harmed by wellness culturein the sense that we overlooked red flags

(14:58):
some practice who you know, wasn'ttrained in a certain type of skill set
to be able to recognize, oh, your back pain is classic prostate cancer
referral pain. We got to getyou somewhere right. They were so busy,
like grandstanding about you know, holisticwellness and its ability to be human

(15:18):
or whatever, but they missed someof these some of these elements that really
didn't deserve to be missed. Andso this is where this balance lies,
is that we have to have thisgood faith integration on both sides of the
spectrum, because nobody's got it figuredout. Nobody's got it figured out.
Traditional biomedicine leaves a lot on thetable non traditional holistic healing approaches, like

(15:43):
nobody has the complete picture and sowe need to overlap our puzzle pieces to
be like, Okay, how canwe care for this person? And so
yeah, it really bothers me toowhen people say, you know, just
don't worry about those Western doctors theydon't know anything or whatever. So of
course there are terrible doctors with terriblebeds I met, or who miss things.
And that's not to say that thatdoesn't happen, of course it does.
But I just it's not responsible andit's not ethical to just say,

(16:07):
you know, hey, take theessential oils and everything's going to be fine.
You know. Yeah, yeah,totally, I completely agree. And
so yeah, can you talk moreabout those ethical gray areas? And I
think one of the things you mentionedwas boundaries, and so I would love
to hear some more from you onthat. Mm hmm. It's Oh,
I'm like self editing in my headbecause I can like really go off on

(16:30):
this one because because again, justexisting where I exist in healthcare, I've
seen so many anecdotal examples about thisas well as you know, reading about
it in lettercy, Yeah, tellus some stories. I mean, I
think this is so fascinating for everybodylistening, and it's important. Yeah,
yeah, well, because it's thething is is that it's kind of sneaky.
Like, sure, we can tellthe stories at either side of the

(16:52):
spectrum that are really obvious egregious thingsthat healthcare people do, whether that's traditional
or non traditional healthcare. But what'swhat's sometimes even in trickier or worse is
the like middle zone where you getwrapped up in a situation and then six
months or however many periods of timelater, you wake up and go like,
holy crap, this is actually reallymessed up. And what I'm doing

(17:15):
is I'm involved with this person who'slike not an ethical practitioner, and it's
it's sneakier because of the way that, like you mentioned, the boundaries of
moments are just very different than traditional, licensed, regulated medicine. And so
you know, the ways that thatgoes wrong is that the holistic provider classically,

(17:36):
you know, there's a lot thatthe word can mean a lot of
different things. So I don't meanto paint with an entire you know,
stroke here, but just speaking mostgenerally, the holistic impulse is to see
connections between everything, right, andto understand every single phenomena of your life
in the broadest possible context, right. And sometimes that's good, but it's

(18:02):
good until it's not. Because thething is, yes, everything is connected,
But the little asterisk on that statementis everything is connected, but not
always in a meaningful way, right, And people are different. So sometimes,
like we mentioned the person with anxietyand GI symptoms, sometimes we have
to treat them together and that's theconnection that's meaningful. Sometimes we don't,

(18:25):
and that connection was not meaningful forthe way that that person's complexity of their
human system had taken on these symptoms. And so having an open mind to
see connections where they exist, butnot to be forcing those connections all the
time is sometimes like a vulnerability ofholistic wellness. It's this invitation to just
have an opinion about everything, whetheror not you're educated in it or not,

(18:49):
because I'm that soulful holistic doctor whounderstands everything about you. And because
of those lack of boundaries, thesetypes of because they don't typically have a
certain type of license or there's nopeer review, you know, they don't
have these ethical and professional organizations andcultures kind of holding them accountable in a

(19:11):
certain way that they often find themselvesat the top of their own power pyramid,
right, And that's just tough becauseexpertise is a type of power,
and when we trust somebody to knowthings, there's a power in knowing things.
And so if we sign up forsome healthcare guru's thing and they have

(19:32):
an opinion and theoretical quote expertise abouteverything from what shoes I wear, to
what food I eat, to whathousehold products to whether or not like cryptocurrency
is good or not, Like Imean, these people exist, yes,
which is insane. Yes, it'sinsane, but it's insane Kelly Brogan says,
like you should invest in crypto.It's like, why are you listening
to Kelly Brogan about financial advice likethis? This makes no sense, but

(19:55):
it's it's a representation of kind oflike the darkening of the holistic impulse,
which is I should know and havea feeling and an opinion about everything about
this person in order to deliver mycare. And the tricky thing is it's
just really hard to know things aboutthe human system. Like we have specialists

(20:15):
western medicine. Broke everything down intospecialists, not because they were too lazy
to know everything, but because it'sreally really really hard to know things,
like just to keep up in yourown area of expertise is really really hard.
So then to say, like Iknow everything about everything about you,
there's a weird power dynamic. Andif you mix that with you're at the

(20:37):
top of your own personal little powerpyramid and you don't have colleagues that are
constantly sort of guessing checking you alittle bit, it just sets up for
weird power dynamics. And in worstcase scenarios, there are all kinds of
healthcare cults, like full on cults, where people assign their agency and their
personal power to their health and thereforetheir life to these charismatic figures that holistic

(21:00):
healthcare kind of attracts and selects for. So, I mean, that might
have been a little bit more thanyou were bargaining for on that front,
but that's kind of the way thatI see it when we talk about,
you know, this realm of expertiseand holistic health care. Yeah, And
what I think is, so,I don't know what the right word is,
but scary about that is that Iimagine these individuals who get caught up

(21:23):
in these things are really smart,really you know, curious people like trying
to do their best with really goodintentions, and then it just keeps going
down a path and then they're like, whoa, how did I get here?
Yeah? Yeah, it's true wherewe see we see people get wrapped
up. This is another point ofwhat's so hard about this zone is that

(21:48):
this zone of healthcare contains a lotof truth. There is a core truth
to a lot of the slippery slopesituations with holistic wellness. Otherwise they wouldn't
be compelling to people. You know, they'd be compelling to like six people
and that would be it. Butthey're compelling at a larger skill because there
are truthful things at the core ofa lot of these practices. And that's

(22:11):
what makes the situation difficult. Isso sometimes being smart or being accomplished or
a type a high achieving person whocan figure things out. Sometimes because there's
such a gray area in healthcare andthe body in human system is so complex,
there's a lot of things that soundgood and it makes sense, and
then they feel intuitively and emotionally trueand it's like yeah, and we go

(22:34):
with it. And then we wakeup three, six, twelve months later
and it's like, oh man,that was actually not the thing. And
now I'm you know, fifteen twentythirty grand in debt to you know,
whatever system I got involved with,and I'm not really appreciably better. But
yeah, those are the tough situationspeople find themselves in. Yeah. I
think of even like on a microlevel, like we both have worked in

(22:57):
the training space and being like strengthcoaches, and I think of, you
know, the really smart people whoare like, oh, I play golf,
so that means I need to doall of my exercises with a swinging
motion. And it's like, okay, I get how that makes sense.
Like I can understand that, Likeyou're a smart person. You think I'm

(23:19):
moving in this pattern, so Ihave to do it this way. But
we know that's not true. Andlike being strong and powerful and all these
things are you know, accumulated inother training and exercise programs. But yeah,
I just think of like in everysingle thing, there are specialists and
different Like I really want to goback to what you were saying about the

(23:40):
medical providers and how their board certifiedin their niche or their specialty, and
I think about that. Even innutrition, I have people who reach out
to me looking not only for meto help them, or they're looking for
oncology support and nutrition. They're lookingfor, you know, someone to help
them with feeding tubes, or they'relooking for all these different niche things.

(24:03):
And I'm like, well, that'sgreat, I really appreciate your coming to
me, but actually there's there's aspecialist for that, and like you have
to go over here because they are. And what's great about those boundaries of
those healthcare providers is they have tostay up to date every five years.
You have to you know, giveyour CEOs, your continuing education, Like
hey, I'm actually staying in thegame and caring about what's emerging and yeah,

(24:27):
and so I think about like anoncology RD is not going to go
in some of the places that I'veworked because I've worked hard to be in
these other types of spaces. Soit's really interesting and I think just knowing
like who you're talking to is important. But I'm curious how you would recommend
to me a friend or like ourlisteners, if you want to pursue you

(24:52):
know, a holistic provider or someonelike you, how can I make sure
that I'm not in a weird situationand are kind of getting duped. For
lack of better words, it's reallyit's a tricky spot. It's a tricky
spot for the reasons you described,And I think the way that I would
go about recommending that process is,well, first of all, there's okay,

(25:18):
So there's a few layers to thisthat stack on top of each other.
Right, there's how to not finda quack? You know, how
to find somebody who you work wellwith, that you have a good therapeutic
relationship with, because you can findsomebody who's legit, but particularly in this
area of healthcare, if you don'thave like a good back and forth with

(25:40):
them, if there isn't a senseof attunement there, it still might not
work out for you. So thereare a few layers to like, when
you're selecting a provider, and particularlya provider in this kind of area,
what are the things that qualify somebodyas a good candidate to help you out?
And so I guess, starting ina more general way like how to
not kind of quack is like,well, first of all, don't be

(26:03):
hard on yourself if you end upfinding somebody and then you kind of do
get duped because we've all been there. It's hard for again, all this
stuff that we said before, it'sa confusing area to navigate. So if
you do end up finding that youwasted half a dozen appointments with somebody,
I know that sucks, But don'tbe too hard on yourself because it's it's
very, very difficult thing to find. But the things to look out for
when somebody like like provider red flagsand stuff. You know, I would

(26:26):
say, particularly in this area ofhealthcare, people who use really absolute language,
they feel like they've got complete andfinal answers to these really complicated questions.
It's gonna be a no from me. It's gonna be a no.
You know what. You don't needanswers from somebody. You need a process

(26:47):
that's different. Somebody who's just goingto tell you what to do, especially
in this area that's a little lessmapped. I don't know how. You
just either get lucky or you getunlucky with their advice. But somebody who
has like a legit process and asystem that when when somebody comes to me
and says, okay, what arewe gonna do, and I we do
our assessment, I say, well, what I want to start with is

(27:07):
this for these reasons, and thenbased on how this goes, there's like
an AB or ABC testing of itall, Like I don't know how you're
gonna come back next week. Ireally don't know. I hope it's like
this, But if it's like thatover here, what we'll do is this
and then that. Instead of sayingto somebody, Okay, we're gonna do

(27:27):
this, then you're gonna get betterin this way, then we're gonna do
that somebody who's ultra prescriptive and reallyreally rigid, no, like, we
don't know enough about these areas ofhealthcare for anybody to earn that level of
certainty. So I would say it'sa big turnoff to have a high level
of unearned certainty in this area.So that's a big red flag. Number

(27:47):
two. This will sound funny,but people who creep you out, people
who creep you out, you'll geta vibe for when somebody doesn't have a
respect for therapeutic boundaries, particularly inthis unregulated or typically unregulated of healthcare.
There are a lot of people runningaround who don't have training in like good
therapeutic relationship and what that really lookslike they just associate any type of personal

(28:10):
connection with you as helpful to thetherapeutic process. So somebody's starting to treat
you a little bit more like afriend, text you at weird times,
you know, ask certain really personalquestions right off the bat without any type
of framing, or you haven't establishedthat level of familiarity and trust yet.
I would be careful and cautious thatthis person may be very well intended,

(28:34):
but they might not have some ofthe relational therapeutic skills to navigate some of
these tougher areas of healthcare with youin a healthy way. So those would
be kind of like the two Icould go on this on this for a
long period of time, but thoseare going to be the two major ones
because those are the two major onesthat when people have come to me that
have been harmed by holistic wellness healthcare, those are the two major categories that

(28:56):
I've found from people. Yeah,and also the fact that those people are
seeking you out or giving it anothershot is really really nice that they were
willing to give it another shot.But I imagine some people are like,
oh my gosh, nope, thisdidn't work. Like I'm not doing this
stuff anymore. So you have peoplewho like give up preemptively, and then

(29:18):
you have people who just get stuckin those patterns with those people. And
so I'm really happy that those people, do, you know, find you
and give you a shot, becausethey're probably going to have a much better
experience. But could you tell usmore about attunement because I think our listeners
understand what that is, but Iwould just like to hear from you what
attunement is with your provider. Attunementis just that feeling that somebody's really there

(29:45):
with you. Yeah, and Ithink it classically gets described by people as
that person's a really good listener,you know. But it's more than just
listening in terms of if somebody hearsthe words that you say. There is
a certain type of listening to.This is the good side of holistic care,

(30:07):
listening to all that you are bringingin that moment. Your body language,
the way that you use your voice, not just the words that you
use, but the way that yourvoice behaves oftentimes tells us a lot about
how certain things are living and resonatinginside of somebody. Listening for the negative
space, you know, what's notsaid or what kind of fades out a

(30:30):
little bit, and what color orcharge that seems to have in a moment.
And again, this is the slipperyslope, is to not listen to
then say oh, I've got youall figured out, but to listen and
then to help you get curious aboutwhat those things are this negative like what
I just said about negative space,what's not said. I try to be

(30:51):
very careful not to then fill thatwith my own thought about, oh,
what they're really not telling me isblank blank blank blank blank. The impulse
then needs to become what do youthink is there? I noticed you kind
of didn't tell me about that partof the story. We kind of like
skipped over it a little bit quick. What do you think is in there?
Or what do you think is aboutthat moment? To get curious about
it instead of again prescriptive. Andthis is the part of attunement is having

(31:14):
that feeling that somebody is really therewith you and really, moment to moment
is receiving you and then like kindof reflecting you back with a level of
curiosity and a perspective that you,as the first person experience, can't have
because you're not out there. That'sthe value of a good therapeutic relationship is
somebody has a third person view onyou, which is equally imperfect. It's

(31:37):
not to say that that's the waythat you are, but it's a valuable
perspective. And that's what a goodattuned therapeutic relationship does. You combine your
viewpoints to try to see something thatwe didn't know was in there that then
is helpful to know, and thenwe can use that to change what you're
doing. Yeah, and what Ihear you saying too, is we're in

(32:00):
the autonomy piece and having them bea part of their healing and their therapy.
And that's so nice and powerful,and I imagine that's what helps it
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(32:44):
today with Code SU Radio fifty.You've got this and we've got you,
so let's reach your goals together.One thing that came to mind too when
earlier in this conversation was you mentionedthe word trauma. And I think that
on TikTok and Instagram people are talkingabout trauma all the time, I know,
and Matt is like touching his face, like, you know, hand

(33:07):
to face. Yeah, it's interesting. So I think it doesn't have to
be a big T trauma to likeneed help and support with. So like
you mentioned like panic attacks anxiety,Like you don't have to have like debilitating
panic attacks to get support from aprovider for anxiety. So on one hand,
I'm like, no, like yourbig T trauma doesn't have to be

(33:30):
like a horrific car accident or youknow, be you know essay or anything
like that, Like it can bevaluable and reasonable for you to get care,
and that's so important. So oneend, which I would love to
hear you jam on and then whatyou were rubbing your head for was probably
the fact that everyone's like trauma,trauma, trauma, trauma, and it's

(33:51):
like, okay, you you know, had a bad day, doesn't mean
that you're having a trauma response.But could we talk a little bit more
about that and how trauma can belike extress it's getting you know, stuck
in the body or feeling like,let's just go down that a little bit,
because I think this is going tobe very interesting for listeners. Yeah.
Well, and it really ties inwith what we've been talking about because,

(34:14):
particularly in the last I don't know, five years or so, trauma
has become the darling child of everyunlicensed i'll be blunt, like wanna be
therapists that exists on TikTok and Instagram. I don't know exactly how this happened
from like a sociological standpoint, butsomehow, now everybody is a trauma therapist.

(34:37):
You know, everybody's now not ayoga teacher. They're a yoga therapist
because they went to like a weekendworkshop or something. You know, it's
an area now that is really reallyit's a mine field unethical practice, and
that's really hard for me to grapplewith because we're talking about trauma theoretically like

(35:00):
the worst moment of someone's life wherethey're the most vulnerable, and this is
going to be the area that theinfluencers really latch onto and then try to
claim as their area of healthcare.It's really tough and I have a big
problem with it. But to talkabout your questions, one final thing about
the social media thing. I cameacross this research on TikTok actually, and

(35:20):
it was about mental health care advicebeing offered on TikTok. They took like,
however, many data points, howevermany posts and looked at them,
and the numbers were somewhere between seventyand eighty percent of the mental health advice
being given on given on TikTok isgiven by people who don't have a mental
health license. Wow, seventy toeighty percent of the stuff you come across

(35:43):
on TikTok is just from some randomperson with an opinion who maybe read a
book or two. Right, Soif we're all listening out there, just
let that sit in the back ofyour brain. Doesn't mean that you can't
stumble on helpful things, but justit's worth a second to be like,
wait, who's this person and what'shappening here, seventy to eighty percent is
from people who who have no actualtraining or ability to treat mental health.

(36:06):
So there's that huge problem. Lastpoint on that I do have. You
know, I work very closely obviouslywith psychotherapists and I kind of exist adjacently
to psychotherapy, and many of thembelieve like there are maybe irreparable things that
are happening to therapy as a professionas a result of what's happening on TikTok
right now, just because the amountof misinformation, the amount of oversimplification,

(36:28):
the amount of the way that thisthis stuff is being framed to the general
public, and the way it's changingthe general public's view of mental health and
in many ways is extremely damaging asopposed to empowering and helpful. So and
when you say damaging, are theyworried about just like the fact that people
are taking this information in and runningwith it, or that they're not going

(36:49):
to seek out therapy, Like doyou know, like did they all the
above? All everything? You know, these are all ways that people fall
into less than ideal care to justbe like, oh I've got it figured
out because I listened to you know, the trauma girl hashtag, you know,
like like whoever online, like likeand I got to figure out and
what I just need to do islike shake my body because they said shaking
is how you release trauma from yourbody, you know, like, yeah,

(37:10):
I just go on a walk andhave a little meant to be Yeah,
kind of like you know, we'rejust there's all kind of that or
the way that certain types of mentalhealth concepts get portrayed in a very very
simplified way, that that overdoes it, you know, and then and then
now people who should be getting professionalcare are not getting professional care right or

(37:31):
get it, or thinking they're gettingprofessional care from non professionals, and they
can end up in what we weretalking about minutes ago, in these weird
unethical boundary blurred potential power dynamics withjust like some some sketchy people. Yeah,
so that that that's kind of what'sgoing on from a social media to

(37:51):
the standpoint. Yeah, yeah,and sorry, I still want you to
finish trauma. But one of thethings I was talking actually to an m
D the other day who I Iwere closely with, and her and I
were talking about she's older than me, but I was like, wow,
I was like, I wonder,you know, how social media is going
to you know, help or hurtwith you know, agism and care.

(38:13):
And it's funny because sometimes I amI'm doing like reverse agism because when I
look for a provider, I actuallyam like, oh, this person's older
than that person, so I wantto go with them. But then I
think of, okay, well Iknow this for sure, especially in nutrition,
which is you know, there's lotsof opinions on this, but if
you have somebody that's in a biggerbody, can they be a dietician?

(38:35):
Can they be a trainer? There'sthat's a whole conversation. But I think
of providers of like, you knowhow they look, you know, are
they on social media? And Ioften think of like the awesome therapist.
They don't have time to be inthese places. So the percentage of that
seventy to eighty percent makes so muchsense to me because I'm like, well,
you know, we're not on thereevery single day like these great providers.

(39:00):
And it's so nuanced that I thinkof like when I go to do
a post, sometimes I'm almost debilitatingand I'm like, I don't want to
post this because this is too simpleof a story, and it's creating like
a little little clip and it mayor may not be helpful for somebody.
So sometimes I don't know. Ihesitate on that, but I think there

(39:21):
needs to be more and more greatproviders who can put out some content once
in a while, because yeah,seventy eighty percent is huge anyway, Okay,
sorry I derailed us a little bit, but I knew that would happen.
This is fun, Like I lovetalking about this stuff. So,
yeah, did we did we covereverything with trauma? I don't think we
did well. Yeah, this conceptof how how every part, every undesirable

(39:44):
thing about your behavior is a traumaresponse, Like that's what gets pumped into
you know, the Instagram and TikTok, a sphere of you know, mental
health. And again, just likeeverything in this conversation, there are good
elements and there are bad elements tothis phenomenon because yes, is it absolutely,
without a doubt helpful And we arebetter off as a culture for having

(40:07):
an increased understanding of the expanded definitionof trauma. How you don't have to
have been in combat, you don'thave to have been assaulted in order to
experience trauma. Sometimes people experience itfor more routine things like I don't know,
you had a weird fall off yourbike and you weren't tremendously hurt,
but there was something that really rattledyour nervous system, or you experienced developmental

(40:30):
trauma growing up, or you experiencelike high levels of stress for a long
period of time. That sure,you were never under this deep sense of
immediate life threat, but a partof your system got tuned that way because
the stressors were not going away,and it just does something to our physiology

(40:52):
and our body. Is it absolutelybetter that more people have an understanding of
that culturally because because of this explosionof trauma in the public health sphere,
yes, without a doubt. Whereit's like we get so good at something
we get bad at it. Wherewe get so good as something we get
bad at. This situation is thatnow every distressing thing is being sold as

(41:15):
trauma. And trauma and distress aredifferent, not just semantically, not just
to say well, that's not thereal definition in some square sort of like
gotcha moment, it's not about that. Medically, they are different, like
they're different from when you're having areally distressing moment or a theories of distressing
moments versus when you are traumatized,when your nervous system is different. And

(41:37):
I think that these lines are importantto draw because it gets you to the
right type of treatment. It getsyou to a provider who can really help
you in a certain way. Becauseif we're trying to treat your distress as
really capital T frank classically defined posttraumatic stress disorder, there might be some

(41:59):
overlap where you get a little bitbetter, and that's helpful, but overall
we probably won't get there, andwe need a different type of approach.
And kind of to what you said, there's this weird many people argue,
well, we should include all ofthese things in trauma because it's more inclusive
and it's more validating of people's experience. And I can understand that argument,
but in a weird way, Iactually think it's kind of invalidating because it

(42:22):
sort of says unconsciously that unless it'snot trauma, it doesn't matter, Like
unless your distress is not called trauma, you don't deserve to go get treatment,
or you don't deserve to make apost about it, or like it
has to be escalated to trauma.A certain type of medical condition in order

(42:43):
for it to be recognized, whereasif we were to say, like,
that's just distressing and it makes youanxious, that deserves help too, like
you said, like you should goget help for that, and you shouldn't
feel like it's not enough, likethat's enough. And so I think in
a weird way, there's an unconsciousinvalidation of people suffering when we have the

(43:04):
impulse to call every distressing thing traumatizing. And so I think this is this
is a recalibration that maybe would behelpful to have inside of the public health
discussion about trauma is to see,yes, the expanded definition exists, and
not every single thing that gives youa bad time is necessarily traumatizing. Yeah.

(43:24):
Wow, Yeah, that was soimportant to hear too. Yeah.
I think it's like, and againnot to generalize, but I think of
like my parents' generation and things likethat, where you know, it's like,
well, what would I get therapyfor, Like I don't need that
because like you said, like I'mnot you know, returning for more and
don't a PTSD, And it's likethere are a lot of other things that

(43:45):
we need help with. And Iwonder, like I think self care is
also a triggering word for people,like I know, like for me,
I'm like, okay, self care, but that restoration, that rest and
like that care for your body isso important to prevent these chronic stress moments
and all these other symptoms and andthings. So yeah, I will not

(44:09):
derail us more. But I lovethat. And I had another question for
you, Well, I want toground us back. So we talked a
lot about, you know, sortof the darker side of wellness and being
holistic and integrative. But I wantto end on a more positive note,
and let's talk about all the wonderfulthings that exists and your outcomes that I

(44:32):
know people go to you for cometo me and you know, somatic experiencing
practitioners out there, like I wouldlove to give that information out of the
wonderful things happening in that space.Yeah. Yeah, And you know,
I say all these things about holistichealthcare and I have my grapes with it
and my you know, ethical andprofessional and philosophical you know, differences about

(44:58):
you know, how all this fitstogether. At the end of the day,
I'm a holistic health care practic likeI still do it, like I
still do it and there is thereis I personally believe there is a there.
There, There is something there.We just have to, I think,
have a little bit more of asober attitude in the way that we
go about finding it. But there'sabsolutely something there. And I think what

(45:21):
holistic wellness gets right, you know, to bring it back to the beginning
of the conversation, is that isthat health care needs more time. You
know, we need more time.I spend an hour with everybody because to
do the stuff that we do inthis space, like, you need more
time, and you need good legitimateattunement, not too much in some sort
of weird, creepy kind of way, not too little, like I'm only
going to look at the chart andbarely know anything about you, dismiss you

(45:44):
really quick. There's a really reallygood and beautiful middle zone of like that's
a good therapeutic relationship, and sothe holistic impulse to find that is a
very very very good one. Andwhen that happens, there are a lot
of really wonderful things that happen topeople. And when we do the interdisciplinary
expertise correctly, it just brings sucha the word that's coming to my mind

(46:08):
now when I think about the peoplewho have been helped by that, there's
such a sense of relief that happensbecause it's like many people have been so
confused and befuddled by their body andtheir experience and siloed off individual separate specialists

(46:29):
haven't been able to tell them astory about their symptoms in a way that
makes sense in their experience. Thatwhen a provider can in a very demonstratable
way, not through coercion, notthrough you know, like you know,
a magic trick, but in avery just real, grounded way, say
like yeah, no, no,no, this and this are just connected
through this thing in the middle,and they can we can do something in

(46:52):
that moment to show that. Experientially, there's just a relief to be like,
wow, this thing that really didn'tmake any sense to me for a
long period of time suddenly like Imake sense to myself again. And there's
a lot of just power that comesfrom that, and a lot of healing
can come from that. So theseare all the really good things that happen
when we when we engage with thisprocess in a sincere, honest and humble

(47:15):
kind of way. And it's oneof the things that's most missing from modern
healthcare. So it's absolutely worth continuingto pursue and find this balance of just
enough and not too much of thisimpulse for holdism. Yeah, and for
the listeners. Like one example thatcomes to mind, I'm sure you have

(47:35):
many many. I had a friendmaybe two years ago, I was actually
post pandemic, and they were experiencingreally bad back pain. And this was
a really strong individual. They werealso a strength coach and had a lot
of back pain, inexplainable back pain, and had gone to an orthopedist,

(47:59):
had gone to physical therapy, gonethrough really every traditional provider, and you
know, it had been months,almost a year, and still was not
getting relief. And we sat togetherand I just looked at him and I
was like, well, you know, the only thing that you haven't looked
at yet is maybe that sematic approachand seeing one of those providers, like

(48:23):
a sematic experiencing practitioner and going throughthat emotional work because something is underneath there.
And I was like, I couldbe freaking wrong. I was like,
I could be absolutely wrong. Andthey went and they did a couple
sessions with an SDP that was avery you know, established SEP and experience

(48:45):
and they called me and they werelike it's better, and I was like,
wow, okay, so it's likethere's something there. I mean,
obviously we know this, and I'mfor listeners. So I'm on my way
to be an SCP. I wantto be like Matt when I grow up.
But it's important please yourself a favor. Don't yet, No, but

(49:06):
it's important because you know it's likeand I think it speaks to we love
our licensure. I love what Ido as a dietician, and I am
just like adding a tool in mytoolkit because I want to provide great attunement
and connection for people in this superconnected world. But we're all disconnected at
the same time. It's like thegreatest oxymoron of all time is how connected

(49:30):
we are and how really a partwe all are. Yeah, for sure,
it has this weird way. We'rein such a weird spot with attunement,
you know, with the way thatwe feel. It's just so polarizing,
right, Like it's really strong onboth sides, but then somehow doesn't
do either. And that's what's alsoconfusing to me to a lot of people

(49:52):
who you know, are trying tonavigate connection in a world like we have
right now with the way that connecaction is commodified and sold in this really
bizarre artificial kind of way. Likeyou said, it's more meaningful than ever
now to find people with whom youlegitimately attune with because we're just flooded with

(50:14):
all of these like pseudosocial experiences andvery little real social experiences. And it's
an important part of healthcare, butit's also an important part of like well
used to you know, as selfcare. What I mean by self care
just things that you can do intentionallyon your own. And that's that's we
have such great data on the moremeaningful relationships that you have in your life

(50:34):
with good attunement, the healthier you'llbe, like across the board. And
it's a complex thing to navigate now, but it's the thing that we're all
missing. Yeah, And one vitalpoint I think we should just mention is
like destination happiness. I think thatin both of our scopes. It's like,
you know, our members or peoplethat we work with, like they're
like, Okay, I want toachieve this performance goal, I want to

(50:58):
achieve this skill. I'll wait whateverit may be, and I'm sure people
that come to you are like,I never want to have this pain again.
And it's not black and white,which we know, and I think
people understand that, but I feellike it's like the destination happiness of it
all, like when this thing changes, I will be this or I will
be better, I will be happier. And I'm just curious if you could

(51:21):
comment on that. Well, youknow, sometimes there's a lot there.
And the first thing that you mentioned, which is very true, which is
like, I imagine that once thisthing gets fixed, I'm going to be
happy. And that's just not reallyhow it goes oftentimes, and sometimes not

(51:43):
for everybody, but sometimes sometimes havingdestination happiness is a way to avoid what
you're feeling and experiencing right now.Yeah, Like it's part of the strategy
to keep yourself safe from something thatyour system feels like it needs to keep
you safe from, which may ormay not be true, but it's what

(52:04):
it's doing. It's the pattern thatperiod, right, and so putting the
happiness or putting the integration or puttingthe good thing out there and then also
having that contrast against how terrible youare now, and you know, many
people say, oh, I'm justnot going to get better because I'm just
so messed up or I'm just sowhatever I say. You know, that's
one way of looking at it,like you know, you're just so messed

(52:28):
up, you're not going to getbetter, but also saying I'm so messed
up, or it's not going toget better, or I'm only going to
feel better once I get this thingis just a way to sometimes not experience
something that maybe would be helpful toexperience in a supported, safe, controlled
kind of way with a good,attuned relationship. And so it's an area
that moving the goalposts, you know, or having this far away like impossible

(52:52):
goalposts to get. Yeah, toget curious about it as to what is
it inside of me that wants toframe my reality that way? Like what
is it doing for me to setit up that way? And is it
protecting me from something? I meananswer it might be no, that's fine,
but I think it's I think it'san important question to ask to be

(53:14):
like, oh, is this actuallypart of the pattern that I could maybe
change in myself in relationship too?Yeah, And that's like the frustrating thing.
I mean, I experience this too, So I'm not picking on anybody.
I experience this too. It's likewhen I'm frustrated or feeling really overwhelmed,
it's like, then I start topick on my body. And I
see that with a lot of clients, and it's like, Okay, well

(53:36):
it's the other thing. It's notyour body that's you know, overwhelming you.
You know, it's these other externalthings or the environment that you're in
that are creating those thoughts, emotions, and that dysregulation. So yeah,
I do want to mention that too, because it's very easy to pick on
ourselves. Yeah yeah, yeah,yeah, And there comes along with that

(54:00):
just a sense of self understanding andcompassion that it's just it's just a part
of you trying to figure out howto keep you safe and how to get
you through the world. It's notlike a personal shortcoming of yours or whatever.
And this goes back to what wesaid about a good therapeutic relationship is
just curiosity, is the tip ofthat spear that cuts through the pattern,

(54:22):
is just like, how did Iget here? And what am I doing?
And why does a certain part ofme just automatically feel like this is
what I need to do in orderto engage with this difficult experience and to
have a level of understanding like,oh, it makes sense that I'm in
this pattern. It makes sense thatI pick on my body. It makes
sense that I'm hard on myself.It makes sense that I blame myself,
or it makes sense that I dothat, And then how can we renegotiate

(54:45):
with that part of ourself to helpit feel like it's okay to have a
different response and then change that overtime. Yeah, it reminds me of
the post that you had I reallyliked on how we frame pain patterns,
but that would apply for this too. I think you said like, your
body isn't out to get you.I love that post. So if you
want to, I can find it. I'll pull it up as you if
you want to comment on it.Yeah, well, I think it's very

(55:08):
natural to hate your situation, tohate your problems, to hate the part
of you that you feel like isnot working out for you, but to
change the viewpoint on it, tothink of it as as a part of
you that's doing the best it canto keep you alive and to do the
best that it can to protect you, even if it has high collateral costs,

(55:28):
even if it's doing it in areally inefficient way. It's not doing
it because it hates you. It'sdoing it because it just thinks this is
the best way to protect you,and it's just miscalibrated and misaligned for what
you really need. But then whenwe have this weird thing where we fight
with it, it never tends tosubmit. It goes no, no,
no, I'm trying to protect you, and then kind of gets worse.

(55:50):
And so we sort of have tohave this non confrontational relationship with it in
order to make it feel comfortable,secure and safe enough to let some of
its rigidity go and change, notby just saying, oh, my stupid
stomach or like oh my stupid cravingsor my stupid whatever. I hate it.
I hate how much it sabotages me. I hate how much it hates

(56:10):
me. My body's out to betrayme. It's like, no, it's
just it's it's actually has positive intent. It's just miscalibrated right now, right
And I feel like it makes meso sad when people say that, and
it's like it's telling you something,like there's information from this happening whatever it
is negative positive, and it's information, And actually I just put up the

(56:34):
posts you had. It said mostpeople develop dysfunctions at one level of the
human system to remain functional at another, and that is what you're talking about,
Like, I just love that somuch. Yeah, yeah, this,
and this speaks to the integration betweenthe systems of the body. You
know, it might be somebody's GIsymptoms, might be I'm stuck in this

(56:57):
fight or flight scenario. I justdon't have entergy left over to digest.
They don't have energy left over todo these things that have to do with
repair and restoration, because I gota burn energy being like primed and ready
to go, ready to fight,ready to get out something. And so
that's us taking away functionality from onesystem to over deliver from another. But

(57:20):
it's doing it again, not becauseit hates you or not because it's out
to get you or sabotage you,but just because that's how some unconscious part
of your survival system has perceived theenvironment that you're in, and it might
be misperceiving the environment, and thereforethen the therapeutic process is helping it understand
that it's misfiring a little bit andthat it's actually okay to let some of

(57:42):
those resources in this example, goback to your digestion, go back to
rest and restoration. Yeah, Ilove that. Well, thank you,
Matt. Do you have any closingthoughts that you want to make sure that
we touch on today? Uh?Closing thoughts? Well, I mean,
I think just to highlight what wesaid a few ago about how there's definitely
something important about investigating the overlap ofthe different systems of your body and your

(58:08):
mind and the impulse of holism isa good one, and that this is
the direction that good healthcare is going. And so you know, we've said
a lot of critical things about what'sgoing on because they are worthy of criticism,
but it's not to steer anybody awayfrom investigating these connections between things,
because that really is where the magiclies. And if you've been on a

(58:30):
journey for a long period of timeand haven't seen results, it's probably because
there is a connection between some partsof your system that hasn't been identified yet,
and so it's worth going after andit's worth finding out about that because
that level of self awareness can bethe key to changing your experience in a
way that feels more like you,Well, thank you so much for being

(58:52):
here. And so where can ourlisteners find you to read more about you
what you do. Yeah, Imean my webit Matt Tolstoy dot com.
You can you can go there.You know, I've got stuff up there
about what I do, mostly onInstagram at Matt Tolstoy and yeah, all
of those have links to If youhave any questions or want to reach out
or anything, you can find methere. And yeah, that's pretty much

(59:14):
it, right. Awesome, Well, thank you again, and I hope
you have a great rest of yourday and we'll talk soon. Hey,
this is great. Thank you somuch. Thank you for listening to Stronger
You Radio. For more information,please visit www dot strongeru dot com.
Don't forget to tune in next weekfor more health and nutrition conversations with Stronger You