Mastering Compassion-First Behavior Change with Karin Nordin, PhD

Our next Stronger U Radio guest has a large fan base within the Stronger U Coach community. Karin Nordin, PhD is an expert in mindset and behavior change and a published researcher of mindset theory. After graduating with her doctorate, Karin had a striking realization: The typical self-help and productivity approaches of the personal development industry were shockingly inconsistent with the actual research on change. That inconsistency fueled her business, Body Brain Alliance, where she’s on a mission to teach people to change and teach coaches how to teach people to change. Fun fact: Even as a behavior change expert, Karin has gone through nutrition coaching and credited it to changing her life. She says, “There is a difference between knowing something and actually doing it, and when we encounter changes in our lives, we need a heightened level of support.”
She joined us on the podcast for a science-backed discussion of the many facets related to behavior change, including

• The importance of having a coach during times of high demand.
• Why she’ll always have a coach herself.
• What self-compassion is and isn’t, plus the three skills to develop it.
• What you should do to achieve the consistency you’re looking for to achieve your goals.
• Going from all-or-nothing thinking to cognitive flexibility.
• Her thoughts on resolutions and tips on setting goals.
• Her one life-changing recommendation.
• And so much more...

Whether you consider yourself a self-help junkie or are new to the topic, there is something in this episode for you.
Tune in and then head to the Stronger U Community to share your thoughts.    
Subscribe to Stronger U Radio       
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Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hey, Stronger You Me Our nextpodcast guest doctor Karen Nordan. You may
have seen her all over social media. I Know Myself and other Stronger You
coaches have followed her for a longtime. She brings the real science behind
self help. Welcome to the StrongerYou Radio. Stronger You Radio brings insightful

(00:23):
conversations with top nutrition, health andfitness experts, hosted by Stronger You dietitians
and nationally certified coaches skilled at simplifyingnutrition science into actionable advice. Get inspired
with evidence based, practical tips tooptimize your potential and crush your body composition,

(00:45):
health and performance goals. This isyour time to level up and become
a stronger You. Karen was sofun and so smart to talk to.
In this episode, we talk aboutbehaviors and habits to achieve what we want
out of life. She is aPhD and expert in health behavior change as

(01:06):
well as a published mindset theory researcher, so she knows her stuff. After
graduating with her doctorate, Karen hada big realization, which was that typical
self help and personal development was shockinglyinconsistent with the actual research on change.
That inconsistency became the fuel for herbusiness called Body Brain Alliance, where she's

(01:30):
on a mission to teach compassion firstchange techniques that help dedicated self improvers become
their two point zero selves. Tomake it simple, they teach people to
change and teach coaches how to teachpeople to change. So we definitely get
into hacks for change and there's somethingfor everyone in this episode, whether you

(01:51):
consider yourself a self help junkie ora net Karen, Welcome to the Stronger
You Radio. Thank you so muchagain for making the time. You have
a huge fan base with the StrongerYou coaches and rds. I shared that
I was interviewing you today and chattingand they were all very very excited.
And I actually need to shout outone of our rd's, Heather, because

(02:14):
she was the one who got meyour link in time, and I think
I snagged one of the last spots. So we are very fortunate. So
thank you for being here. Itmeans the world awesome. I'm really excited
to be here. Thank you.Okay, so I want you to introduce
yourself because I will say I'll doyour introduction PhD in behavior change or health

(02:35):
behavior change, and can you tellus what that means and what your research
was in Yes, So usually whenI introduced myself, I like to go
a little bit farther back. SoI tell the story about how I vividly
remember this time when I was inthird grade and I was looking at this
girl in my class named Valerie Carlson, and the teacher in my class had

(02:55):
just been like, okay, everybody, take out your pencils and your homework.
And Valerie, in my vivid memory, pulls out her like perfectly organized
pencil case. Everything is like allin a row organized. She opens her
folder, her homework is right there, and I look in my backpack,
which is like pencil shavings and chaos, and I'm like, oh my goodness.

(03:19):
And as a third grader, Iremember thinking like I need to change,
I need to be better. Andso from a very early age I
had this sort of like drive orattachment to self help. So I did
that was very, very infatuated withall sorts of self help. I wrote
all the books. I was interestedin all the things like weight loss,

(03:40):
finance, tidiness, like you nameit. I thought I had to like
quote fix it about myself. Igot a bachelor's degree in psychology because I
was fascinated by people, went inand got a master's degree focused on interpersonal
communication, and through like a seriesof weird coincidences, ended up getting a
PhD be in a field called healthcommunication. And health communication is technically the

(04:04):
study of the way communication influences healthbehavior. So the origin of the field
of health communication was really about behaviorchange surrounding tobacco and smoking cessation, figuring
out how to help people quit smoking, and since then the field has sort
of evolved more towards general health psychology. And when I did my PhD,

(04:27):
I was very specifically focused on mindsettheory, a little bit of an educational
psychology twist, and really, howcan we get people to change everyday behaviors
when it's hard, and it's notjust about willpower, discipline, or any
of these buzzwords you hear on theinternet. It's a lot deeper than that.
Yeah, absolutely, well, Ilove that. I'm like, I

(04:47):
want to do that program. Iwant to learn more about that. And
so now your work is focused onobviously working with individuals, but also working
with coaches, which is how alot of RTA knows about you, because
I think some of our staff hasactually gone through some of your courses and
resources. So could you tell usa little bit more about body brain alliance.

(05:09):
Yes, So, I actually whenI was doing my PhD, I
worked with a nutrition coach and hada great experience. Working with a nutrition
coach totally changed my life. Andso there kind of was this point where
it was twenty twenty, I wassupposed to graduate, I was offered a
job at a ten tenure track positionat a university somewhere kind of far away

(05:30):
in rural that I didn't really wantto live. And so I decided to
make a big pivot and I wasactually on PM's website trying to figure out
if I could get a nutrition coachingcertification, and again, through a series
of weird coincidences, ended up connectedwith Christa Scott Dixon, who was at
the time the director of Curriculum atPN. So I worked at PN for

(05:53):
two years as a subject matter expert, and during that time I got my
nutrition coaching certification and started what atthe time was a nutrition coaching business.
But as I started coaching and Iwas working with clients, I was sort
of leaning a lot more towards liketime management and habit formation and motivation and

(06:14):
all of these things that were veryrelated to my degree, and so that
sort of became the foundation for BodyBrain Alliance, which is my company now.
So we are on a mission toget compassion first change education into the
lives and brains of one million people. And part of the way we do
that is I bring in some ofthe educational psychology and change psychology that I
learned in my degree, and Ipassed that on to other coaches because I'm

(06:38):
not interested in gatekeeping the stuff thatmakes us good. We can't get to
a million people by ourselves. Weneed other coaches to also be equipped with
those teaching and coaching and change skillsthat we're lucky enough to have. Yeah,
I love that, and thank youfor all of the work you do.
It's super important. And I lovethat you were saying all the information
about nutrition too, and you mentionedand I was I want to ask you

(07:00):
this of what was working with anutrition coach like for you, because I
think people who don't do this typeof work their ears might perk up of
like, oh, a behavior changeexpert also has a coach, And I
think that headline is really important.Yes, So here's the thing is both
psychologically and neurologically. There is adifference between knowing something and actually doing it,

(07:24):
and when we encounter challenges in ourlives, we need a heightened level
of support. And so for me, the difference when I started having a
nutrition coach was that I knew someonewas there on my team. There was
someone there with me to help megrapple through all of these obstacles I would
encounter, Like when I was goingto go on vacation, someone was there

(07:46):
to make a game plan with me. When I came back after three days
of uber eating and I was reallyfrustrated, there was someone to discuss that
with me and help me return toself compassion and help me return to a
place where I had a game planfor what I was going to do the
next day. And you can havelike of the knowledge out there, like
girl, I've got it. Ican explain to you what metamotivation is.

(08:07):
I can explain to you like howto be more cognitively flexible. I can
do that all day long, Butto this day, I will always have
some sort of behavior change or healthcoach on my team. Because you cannot
be an objective observer of your ownlife and that objective perspective coming in and
helping you and supporting you through thosedecisions. It's like it's there's nothing else

(08:28):
like it, one hundred percent.And I think that speaks to a lot
of what our community and our membershipis as we talk about, like you
could be a beginner somebody who's beendoing this for many years, but that
objective observer like you said, that'salways beneficial, and so people may get
to their big goals and then bejust doing like really micro things and like

(08:48):
maybe I don't need to work withsomeone anymore. And of course that they
have autonomy and they can choose that, but sometimes it is still nice to
have somebody, like you said,like in your corner, that support system
of like these little things that comeup. It's just like those maintenance doses
that we have now. Yeah,And I think it's interesting because we know
that our lives vary in complexity.But a lot of people will tell me

(09:11):
like, oh, I'm going toget a coach when things calm down.
I'm going to get a coach whenI have more time, and it's like,
no, actually, when demand increasesin your life, when difficulty increases
in your life, that's when youneed to add support. That's not when
you need to shy away from support. It's the good weeks are great,
and on those weeks you might havea quick touch base with your nutrition coach

(09:33):
and say, hey, crush myprotein goal this week, live in my
best life. It's it's the weekswhere things are tough that the coaching actually
makes the biggest difference. Yeah,And I think that, like something I've
been thinking about a lot is recencybias. And how like, if we're
not struggling right now, is somethingwe're like, Okay, we don't need
a person anymore. And that's kindof what you're saying, how do you

(09:54):
think recency bias, Like, Idon't know interweaves with all of this with
health nutrition. So I think thatnumber one, like you said, we
are more likely to base our sortof conclusions about our nutrition on the last
like three or four days of nutritionrather than the last like six months of

(10:16):
nutrition. But to kind of likego along with that point, one of
the things that I find really interestingis a lot of people enter into a
goal setting situation, like they seta new goal for themselves or they hire
a coach because they feel like there'sa deficit because they feel like they need

(10:37):
to fix themselves because they need torun away from something. And in psychology
that's actually known as an avoidance goal, and it's actually much more helpful most
of the time to have an approachgoal, which is like what are you
running towards? I always use themetaphor of like, imagine you see two
people running. One of them isrunning towards the finish line, one of
them is running away from a tiger. Like they're running at the same speed,

(10:58):
but the vibes are different, right, And that's what you're doing to
yourself if you're setting these goals onlybased on like everything sucks right now,
I have to do something about this. That can be very powerful short term
motivation. But that's where we getthis like wagon mentality. And so what
I always like to remind people isthat it is powerful and important to audit
your life and ask yourself, likewhere do I want to move forward?

(11:22):
Like what are the areas where Isee a higher level for myself? Not
this sort of like fix it mentalitythat's very prevalent and self help. Yeah,
I love the analogy that you justgave. I'm going to steal that
those so good because the way thatI talk about things a lot, and
our staff does is with like bodycomposition and things like like weight is already
in the room. We don't needto just focus on weight more and more

(11:45):
and more. It's just it's toomuch. And so I love like performance
as a proxy for physique, right, Like we can have physique and bodycomp
changes, but like focusing on Okay, you can do another pull up than
you did last year, you cando more push ups, you can you
know, go more intense or changedifferent timing of things. So I love
that you're saying that. I thinkit's really important. And one of the

(12:09):
other things you mentioned, which Iwas going to ask you all about,
is self compassion because I know inthe body of research, with like body
image and just self acceptance and thingslike that, we have to come from
a compassionate place. And I wouldlove to just have this conversation with you
so people can hear this and understandit a little bit more. Yes,

(12:31):
So I'll start off with this,if you are thinking to yourself right now,
I don't need more self compassion.I need less. That means you
need more self compassion, and mostpeople most people have a fundamental misunderstanding of
what self compassion actually is, becauseself compassion does not mean letting yourself off

(12:52):
the hook. Self compassion does notmean abandoning your goals at the slightest obstacle.
What self compassion actually is and thisis her name is doctor Christie,
I believe is like the foremost researcheron self compassion, and she has it
divided into three categories, and thefirst one is mindfulness. So in order
to be self compassionate, we haveto be fully aware of the present moment,

(13:13):
what we're going through, and wehave to acknowledge our emotions. And
that is really hard because a lotof us are really poor in this skill
called discomfort tolerance, which is whyas soon as you know there's a workout
on your calendar and you're a littlebit intimidated by that workout, you don't
have the ability to regulate that discomfort, and so you dive into something else.
That's when you're procrast to cleaning orprocrast to scrolling or whatever. So

(13:37):
when we build that mindfulness, whenwe move towards self compassion, all of
a sudden, we're holding that mindfulnessskill of being able to regulate, understand,
and meet ourselves where we're at,where we are at in terms of
our emotions. So that's component numberone. Component number two is self kindness,
and specifically self kindness over self judgment. And what I like to remind

(14:01):
people is when you feel judged,it's likely because someone made a conclusion about
you that was devoid of some ofthe facts. It was devoid of the
understanding that they would have needed inorder to make the correct conclusion. And
when you judge yourself, you areessentially distancing yourself from important information that you

(14:26):
would need to make an accurate conclusionand that you would need to actually learn
about yourself. So the more youchoose self kindness, you're really choosing understanding.
If you feel like you keep failingover and over again and not learning
from it, if you feel likeyour behavior is out of your control,
you probably need more self kindness.And then the third one is common humanity,
and that's really about understanding that you'renot alone and understanding sort of the

(14:52):
I like to think about it asrealistic expectations. Right, I'm not expecting
myself to run six marathons in oneday when I would never expect that of
somebody else. And so if youwork on those skills, those three skills
in conjunction with each other create selfcompassion, and that will actually make you
much better at changing because that insightand that awareness and that relationship that you

(15:18):
build with yourself, that is actuallywhat creates problem solving and follow through and
sticking to it, staying on thewagon later on. Yeah, because I
think so many people have this conceptionof like I just need to push harder,
and like we handpick and like handread all of our intake forms when
we're pairing coaches, and something thatcomes up sometimes people are like I want

(15:39):
someone to be really hard on me. I just am not tough enough,
like I and I read that,and I know I'm like, oh no,
like they need more self compassion.I'm not judging. I'm just like,
Okay, I hope that we canhelp them move a little bit more
towards that self kindness self compassion,because it's not that they need to just
be harder or like, what's thechallenge everyone was doing? Remember? Is

(16:02):
it how many days hard or somethinghard? Yeah? I'm like, okay,
that's just like going against everything we'rejust talking about, right, And
it's not that we're letting ourselves offthe hook. And so I think there's
this bind of like how do wenot let ourselves off the hook but also
hold ourselves accountable to a certain extent. So, like, I think the
first one you were talking about wasyou gave a great example of like procrastination.

(16:23):
Like, so if I know thatI want to go do a workout,
I have it scheduled in my day, but then I have all these
things that just magically start coming up. I start doing things like how can
we combat that? Or like,what are some skills that maybe we could
try. So the first thing Iwould say is treat your obstacles as obstacles
and not as excuses. So alot of people will tell me I'm just

(16:44):
going to be better about this tomorrow. I'm just going to make it happen
tomorrow. And neither of those twosentences are a plan versus. If you
very carefully, if you take thisself compassionate route and you analyze, you're
like, Okay, yesterday I skippedthe gym. I skipped the gym because
because I felt intense resistance when thatworkout was on my calendar. And then
you get curious where was that resistancecoming from? What exactly was creating that

(17:10):
resistance? And sometimes that resistance isgoing to come from something that you deemed
to be silly. So I alwaysgive the example of for a while,
I was doing early morning workouts,and I was having all this resistance when
I was getting up in the morning, I didn't want to go to the
gym, and I finally started askingmyself after several days of just trying to
force myself into it, which didn'twork, I started asking myself, like,

(17:30):
okay, card, what's really goingon here? And when I heightened
my awareness of what was going on, I realized that the obstacle was that
I didn't want to take off mypajama pants. My pajama pants were cozy,
they were very comfy, and likethat was coming in between me and
the gym. And so what didI do? I worked with that obstacle.
I made it part of the solutioninstead of continuing to ignore it as

(17:52):
part of the problem. So Ijust put my gym clothes in my gym
bag and I wore my freaking pajamapants to the gym, and then I
changed in the locker room, andthat immediately solved my resistance towards that morning
workout. So when we treat ourexcuses quote unquote as obstacles, we're actually
going to learn from them, workwith them, make plans based on them,

(18:17):
rather than relying on you know,quote willpower or whatever to just push
through. I love that, andI bet that's awesome for you just from
a lot of bed and go tothe gym and your pajama pants. Maybe
I'll try that. I like thatone, I think, And what you're
exposing too is how simple and smallthat those solutions can be. I think
sometimes they're so small that we overlookthem too. Yes, yes, a

(18:41):
similar thing is a lot of times. Okay, this isn't my metaphor.
I heard this somewhere several years ago, and I've been repeating it since.
But I like to really clarify whensomething is not my intellectual priority. But
I heard someone say that a lotof your mental monologue is like a parrot.
It's just repeating what it's heard before. And so if you can have

(19:02):
a physical habit like putting on yourseat belt, but you can also have
a cognitive habit, like your brainsending you the thought I don't want to
every time the gym is on thecalendar. And sometimes it's enough to just
pause in that moment and to askyourself, is that true? Because we
know that behavior change is somewhat dictatedby this thing called decisional balance, which

(19:23):
is basically just the pro cons listthat's invisibly living in the back of your
head. And when you ask yourselfis that true, and you start considering
the reasons, you might be ableto tip the scale enough of that in
that moment to drive you towards themotivation you need in order to get to
the gym. And it is sometimesthat simple. Sometimes it's more complex,
but sometimes it is that simple asasking yourself, whatever the obstacle is,

(19:47):
whatever the thought is that comes toyour brain, is that really true?
And is that why you think?And I don't know if you think this
is helpful, but you hear peoplesay like have a post it note or
of like the thing you're working towards, or like what you're pushing towards in
front of your face, where it'slike when that pro con list is subconsciously
there, that's like, okay,this is cortical in front of my face.

(20:08):
Yeah, so that actually has todo with two psychological phenomenon known as
goal salience and value salience. Sosalience is kind of like intensity. It's
kind of like the difference between reallyred kool aid and like light red kool
aid. That's like the visual Iused to think about salience. And our

(20:29):
values that we hold are going tofluctuate based on our environment and circumstances in
their salience. So sometimes your valueof being a good mom is going to
feel really front and center, andsometimes the value of being a frequent exerciser
is going to be really front andcenter. And so one of the things
that we can do in order tokind of nudge us towards the decisions we

(20:52):
want to make is we can activatethose values. We can increase the salience
mentally by you know, triggering ourselvesin a good way with some sort of
like post it or even just writingdown powerful thoughts. So we have a
mini course called Meaningful Mornings, andthe first lesson I have people set their
alarms across the room and on theway there they have to read a piece

(21:17):
of paper that they have written forthemselves that has all of the reasons all
of the things they value about gettingup in the morning. And a lot
of times that changes the game forpeople because it's bringing that value of you
know, peace or alone time orwhatever it's it's bringing it up in salience
and that changes our sense of motivation. Yeah, so it's helping you get
redder kool aid more salience. Ilove that. I'm going to use that.

(21:41):
And so is it true, like, so are you doing those meaningful
mornings just that was like specifically tohave better outcomes in the morning, or
is it because like I've heard,like the first few things, the first
few thoughts of the day, thatthose are more is that true? Like
the imprint? So I have notseen compelling evidence that people who wake up
earlier are more successful. I havenot seen compelling evidence that there's anything that

(22:07):
happens magically when you wake up earlier. We do know that there are tangible
cognitive and mental health benefits to havinga regular sleep cycle, and so that
is I think where people get mixedup. A lot of people are like,
oh, but all these successful peoplewake up early, and I'm like,
I think it's less about the timeand more about the fact that they
are getting up at the same timeevery day. They're in that rhythmic schedule.

(22:30):
So in the course, for example, I tell people, I don't
care what time you wake up.If you want to wake up at ten
am, own it. If youwant to wake up at five am,
cool beans. What I encourage peopleto do, though, is, regardless
of what time they wake up,try to do one Try to take one
action that reminds you of your futureself that makes you feel like the person

(22:51):
you're trying to become within that thirtyminutes of waking up. And there's I
have no scientific studies to back thatparticular technique up. It's just something that
I've noticed throughout the years of reallyhelped a lot of our clients. Yeah,
totally well, and it's kind oflike the James Clear methods of things,
Like you know, our community isbig into that, like the habit
stacking and like who act like theperson you want to be and who you

(23:11):
want to become. And I'm I'minto that stuff too. I love that.
Yes. Yeah. One of myfavorite things to tell people is,
if you are trying to become anew version of yourself, change your Starbucks
order, because it's so it's justthis little thing, or like your Chipotle
order, like whatever you're like kindof you know, religious about you order
the same thing every time. Ifyou just switch that up a little,

(23:33):
you're going to feel different. Something'sgoing to feel different in that moment.
And sometimes it's those tiny moments tojust reinforce this idea we have of like,
oh I am changing. Sometimes thosemake a big difference. Yeah,
I love that. And I wascurious to know, what do you think
is often misunderstood with behavior change orchange psychology. So one of the things

(23:57):
that I think is relevant to theconversation that we're having right now is the
way we kind of culturally use theword habit, and what a habit actually
is neurologically is very different. Soa habit neurologically is a behavior that is
so small it is an action thatcan be done automatically. And so a

(24:18):
lot of people have this expectation ofI want to make going to the gym
a habit, but that will neverbe a habit, not a true habit
in the neurological sense. And Ithink it's important because when you look at
the people who are successfully going tothe gym super regularly or who are meal

(24:40):
prepping every Sunday, it's not thatthey go into zombie mode and they,
you know, wake up somewhere andthey're like, oh wow, I'm at
the gym now like that, That'snot how it happens. It's that they
have learned to regulate their motivation,and they have learned to build intrinsic motivation
and for wanting to do that thing. So, going back to decisional balance,

(25:03):
their decisional balance, yours might betipped slightly towards no on default,
theirs is tipped slightly towards yes ondefault. And so rather than I think,
we get this expectation that, oh, the gym's going to become it's
going to be easy to go tothe gym after a while, it's going
to become effortless, and then werun into obstacles and resistance and all these
normal human things, and we thinksomething has gone wrong. And so what

(25:26):
I tell people instead is why don'tinstead of you know, hoping you're going
to live on autopilot someday and you'regoing to be in zombie mode where all
of your behaviors are going to automaticallyhappen, why don't you build enough work
on building enough desire and enjoyment forthe behaviors that you want in your life,
that you will choose them even onthe days where you're in a different

(25:49):
place or where things are less automatic, Like can you focus on linking those
behaviors to your identity? Can youfocus on building intrinsic motivation? Can you
focus on increasing your change skills likeyour cognitive flexibility and your motivational awareness.
If you focus on those things,you're going to be able to achieve that

(26:10):
consistency that you're looking for. It'snot going to come from the robot sort
of like automaticity that you think it'sgoing to come from. Yeah, I
think that's a great example because peoplewill say, like I wish I was
just this robot and could just likego be black and white and do all
the things, and we know thatjust doesn't work and that's not reality.
So I love that frame And Okay, so this comes up with like the

(26:33):
people who say, you know,I fell off the wagon and we're like,
okay, get back on the wagon. It's like there is no wagon,
right, It's like this is life. And so like I think it's
like that dogmatic approach or like theblack and white like could you speak?
I mean you just kind of didspeak to that, but a little bit
more about like the black and whitewith like the health behaviors or nutrition behaviors

(26:53):
people partaken. Yes, So theopposite of all or nothing thinking perfectionism is
a cognitive skill called cognitive flexibility,and it is our ability to essentially think
about things differently, to change ourbehavior in certain situations, to adjust.
And the problem is that a lotof us recognize, well, actually there's

(27:18):
two problems. Number one, alot of us don't recognize when we're in
all or nothing thinking. We don'trecognize that our gym adherence or nutrition plan
following or whatever is coming from thiskind of desire for perfection. I mean
had that experience. I remember vividlylast year. I was like frustrated because

(27:40):
I hadn't gone to the gym yetthat week, and it was like a
Friday night, and I was talkingto my boyfriend. I was like,
well, I'll just go tomorrow becauselike it's already Friday night, and he
was like, Karen, And hedrops these things casually, like at the
dinner table. Sometimes he just likesto call me out. He's like,
Karen, I think you're being alittle bit perfectionistic about this right, like,
why don't you just go now?And I was like, oh,

(28:04):
like, don't use my own magicagainst me, sir, excuse you.
But he was right, and Idid go to the gym that day.
So a lot of it is anawareness problem. We don't realize that we're
kind of stuck in these all ornothing thinking problems, but then when we
do realize, we simply don't havea mechanism to opt out. So we
know we're feeling this all or nothingthinking and we want to be able to

(28:27):
do it flexibly, but we wantthe flexibility to be comfortable, and it's
not going to be comfortable at first. It is going to absolutely suck to
go do that imperfect workout at thegym. It is going to absolutely suck
to go six hundred calories over andstill choose to track your macros that day
anyway. It is going to absolutelysuck to do a habit differently after your

(28:52):
thirty one day habit streak instead ofabandoning it and trying to start over.
All of those things are going tosuck. And what people don't realizes that
moving from all or nothing thinking intocognitive flexibility requires you to be in that
in that land of discomfort because you'reyou're not perfectionistic, and it's almost easier
psychologically to be perfectionistic. I lovehow you're naming that it's going to suck

(29:18):
because everyone's probably feeling like, ohmy god, why does this feel so
ough and angsty? Like I thinkabout that you said Friday night. For
me, it was Sunday night.I remember like a Sunday night. I
was like, oh my god,no, I want to go to the
gym on Monday morning. I'm notgoing Sunday night. And then when you
do it, you're like, Okay, this is weird. And then after

(29:38):
I'm like, oh I went tothe gym today, look at that.
And then it's like huh, okay, well, and a lot of people
jump into planning the next week.So that's sort of the thing that I
think goes unrecognized. It's like,Okay, Saturday, you like completely blow
through your macros, and then onSunday morning, instead of just getting back

(30:00):
on track, you start planning forthe next week and you're like, Okay,
I'm just going to do whatever todayand starting Monday, I'm going to
be on track again. And yougo into this, you go into this
world, like your imagination is craftinga world where you're thinking about the groceries
you're going to eat, you're thinkingabout the workout you're going to do.
And what I want people to recognizeis that your brain has very little ability

(30:25):
to distinguish imagination from reality. Sowhen you're in that planning mindset, it
feels very comfortable. It feels reallyexciting when you think about that super strict
challenge, that super rigid diet thatyou're going to put yourself on, that
super intense gym plan. It feelsawesome to brainstorm about those things. But

(30:47):
what you are doing is you arebrainstorming about those things. You are living
in that imagined world because it allowsyou to escape the discomfort of where you
are right now. And it's reallygoing back to that idea of mindfulness.
Embrace the discomfort of the present.That's going to allow you to make adjustments
quicker and quicker and quicker and quicker, and that's what's going to create success.
Yeah, and I bet if wepooled, Like all nutrition companies that

(31:11):
exist or coaching services, it's likeMonday is the sign up day, and
that's the phenomenon that you're talking aboutit's like starting on a Monday. This
like illusion of Like that feels reallynice, right, Like, no one
wants to sign up on a Thursdayfor nutrition coaching. We want to sign
up on a Monday. Yeah,makes sense. Is it time for you

(31:32):
to level up? Get matched witha stronger You coach who's dedicated to your
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and tailored to you. No onesize fits all plans or depp of
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com with code SU Radio fifty.That's SU Radio fifty. This is where

(32:22):
a Stronger You begins. Let's dothis. I'm also curious because you just
really framed out nicely about how habitsare viewed, and I think that I
see that it's like a lot ofthese buzzwords, right, that are misconstrued,
And so we talk about habits andthen the growth mindset. I know

(32:43):
you talk about it a lot,but I think some people may have misconceptions
about what a growth mindset is.So I'd love to hear your exploration there.
Sure, So a lot of peoplethink a growth mindset is sort of
like a positive attitude. It's like, look it out life, thinking you
can do it, thinking you cancan get better. That's awesome. What
research is starting to kind of diginto and this is like, it's really

(33:07):
in the beginning. I wrote mywhole dissertation on mindset, so this is
like my bread and butter. Yeah, a literal, two hundred page document
with four studies on growth mindset.But what researchers are starting to realize,
and what I have very much seenas more of a practitioner, is that
growth mindset is domain specific. Sogrowth mindset is actually the belief that a

(33:30):
specific quality or characteristic can be improved. So it's likely that you have multiple
qualities or characteristics about yourself that youdo have a growth mindset towards. Maybe
you believe you can get better attennis, Maybe you believe that you can
get smarter at math. But there'salso likely areas where you have a fixed

(33:51):
mindset, where maybe you don't believea particular quality can change. For example,
one of the areas I see mostoften in the health and fitness field
is sleep. I'm a bad sleeper. It's genetics. What I do nothing
changes. There may be some truthto that, and there may also be

(34:12):
a fixed mindset there. And whatwe know from the research is that when
people have a fixed mindset, theyare more likely to kind of give up
in the face of obstacles. Theydon't take feedback as well, they don't
persevere, and they don't have asmuch enjoyment and sort of some of the
original work that Carol Dweck, theresearcher who sort of came up with growth
mindset, she was doing research andshe was having children solve unsolvable puzzles.

(34:38):
And this kid, after failing forlike the seventeenth time, like as she
writes, clasped his hands together likegrinned ear to ear and basically said something
along the lines of like, oh, I'm so excited to try again,
Like oh I love this, thisis so fun. Right, So he
had experienced failure over and over andover again, and he was treating that

(35:01):
failure as part of the process.You know, all these cliches that you're
like, Okay, I hear that, But how do I do that?
And so what where I encourage peopleto start is to dig into are there
pieces of your nutrition, health identitythat you don't feel can be changed?
Do you call yourself an emotional eaterand you think you'll always be an emotional

(35:24):
eater? Do you call yourself abad sleeper? Like? What are the
labels you're using to identify as andare those labels actually helpful? Yeah?
And so do you think from acoach perspective? So I'm thinking about you
know, people do come in andthey'll say these labels. Should we then
question that, like how could wehelp facilitate that? Yeah? So the

(35:50):
number one thing that I often dowhen a client comes to me and says
something along those lines is I justask for more information. So I'm like,
Okay, you told me that you'rean emotional eater, Tell me more
about what that label means to you. Tell me more about why you're identifying
that way, right, And thatoften starts the storytelling, and then you

(36:12):
can kind of if they seem opento it, and you can even ask
for permission, like, I'd loveto explore are you you know, are
you open to exploring this identity alittle bit more? And if their answer
is yes, then what I woulddo is I would try to ask them
about another time if they've ever hadany other characteristic that they didn't think could

(36:37):
change, Because what we know fromthe growth mindset interventions that have been done
is that some of them at leastare activity based, and they involved writing
about a time where a particular characteristicchanged and grew. So you can kind
of start that conversation. Most ofit, though, does have to come

(36:58):
from them, like it does haveto come from this realization on their part
of like, oh, maybe Ido believe this, but maybe I don't
want to believe this anymore. MaybeI'm even like one person open to believing
that this doesn't necessarily have to betrue about me. Yeah, it's almost
like we're facilitating the reasons they mightwant to believe or may not want to
believe, like you're saying like mayor may not. So I love that.

(37:20):
Thank you. That's super helpful forme as well. Yeah, and
I also am curious about your thoughts. I mean, we're in November,
can you believe it? And weknow that as coaches and clinicians, we
are about to see the influx ofresolutions and all the behaviors that people want
to change. Yes, can youtalk to me about just maybe even your

(37:42):
personal opinion on resolutions. It doesn'teven have to be like data driven or
anything. I'm just I would loveto have this conversation about that. Yeah.
So, there's a very real phenomenonin behavior change called the fresh start
effect. And the fresh start effectis essentially the idea that if we make
changes on a significant day, oreven on a less than significant day they

(38:04):
use in the studies, they usethese like arbitrary holidays. They ask people
to start saving money on like Groundhog'sDay or something. And if you start
on a specific day, such asNew Year's that does seem to help you
in the long run stick with thatbehavior because it creates a temporal landmark.
So it essentially helps you split thisis old me and this is new me.

(38:28):
Okay. With that said, so, I love the fresh art effect
and I love a good resolution,but I think resolutions need to come from
a place of desire and not fromwhat is known as controlled motivation or like
I should. So what I seehappen is a lot of people go home

(38:49):
for the holidays. They're in theseenvironments where, whether well intentioned or not,
people are making comments about bodies finances, success, career goals, and
they're put in this place where they'resurrounded by what everybody else thinks they should
do and whoeverybody else thinks they shouldbe. And that drives the goals they

(39:10):
set for the next year. Andthen those are like we talked about earlier,
those are avoidance goals. I haveto fix this about myself. I
can't let this be the case nextyear. And so of course their motivation
is super high at the beginning ofJanuary, but their motivation fades out.
So what I recommend people do isnumber one, don't let yourself finalize your

(39:31):
goal until January. Only set agoal if you really want to, if
you feel like there's something really excitingyou really want to work towards, not
run away from. And also treatDecember as an experiment. So if you
want to do your first powerlifting meetin twenty twenty four, you better download

(39:52):
a powerlifting workout trial and do fourof those workouts and see how it goes,
because a lot of us want theresult, but we don't realize that
we don't actually want the process,and we have to want both in order
to get there. Yeah, andwhat you've just said too about the excitement,
I'm trying to think of an exampleof someone who maybe they're not excited,

(40:12):
but they still want change. Howwould you facilitate that conversation? Is
it? I mean I would comefrom a place of like, Okay,
this is what you want. Wherein the process can we find some excitement?
What would you say about that?Yeah? Absolutely, I think that's
a good tactic. I also thinkexcitement, like many other emotions, are

(40:34):
generated by our thoughts, and soif there's not anything you're excited about,
I would audit what are my valuesand where in my life do I feel
like I can better embody those values? Like is there a particular value that
I'm really attracted to that I feelcurious about that I would like to try

(40:55):
to embody more. So that's likein Body Right Alliance. In our coaching
program, we have people select whatwe call the core four set of values
and the core for set of behaviors, and they do that on a ninety
day rotation, and so narrowing downto values can be helpful if there's not
like a specific goal that's like lightingpeople on fire. Yeah, I love

(41:15):
that, And I like how youjust I was going to ask you for
values and coming up with those corefour and you just said ninety day cycles,
and so would you have those correlatedto goal setting or would you uncouple
those and like you can have thecore flour and then your goal setting would
be over here, so they areseparate. And I think that the core

(41:37):
floor framework actually solves a big gapin goal setting, which is like people
set a goal or people want tofeel a certain way, like they want
to identify as a certain person,but there's not really like a goal that
like goes along with that. Okay, So case point. In twenty twenty
two, one of my resolutions forthe year, one of my values that

(41:59):
I focused on all year long wastidy. I wanted to become tidy.
I didn't need to make that intoa smart goal where it was like,
oh, on sixty percent of thedays of the year, I'm going to
tidy for ten minutes before but likeI didn't need that, right, that
was not actually going to help me, and I was going to lose steam
on that really quick, but reinforcingevery ninety days, I'm choosing to value

(42:22):
tidiness and every day having the optionto say, like, okay, this
is my value. How am Igoing to embody that today? It can
look different, which emphasizes that cognitiveflexibility that we're going for. But focusing
on that kind of can actually getyou closer to the person that you want
to become, which a lot oftimes is not about the big things.
It's not about the marathons and themassive savings goals and whatever. It's it's

(42:49):
about the daily choices you make andthe match between your intentions and your behavior.
Yeah, the match is key,totally. I agree. Yeah,
So I think like I'm actually tryingto explore a little bit of how our
technology right now can help people.And so when I think about goal setting,
I've always looked at it as theirshort term and long term. But

(43:09):
what I hear you saying is maybeeven like it's a little bit broader buckets
of these themes of like you said, tidy or you know, maybe active
is another one for somebody where it'slike it doesn't even mean like you have
to walk for ten minutes a day. It's just a little bit broader than
that. It certainly gives a lotmore flexibility, is what I'm hearing totally.

(43:30):
And we can focus on the behaviorsand use the values as a backup.
So one of the things I justdid a workshop for our membership on
like how to handle the holidays,And one of the things we talked about
is like, let's say you're reallyworking on going for a ten minute walk
every morning. You're really working ondoing that, and you know that,

(43:52):
for example, I'm going to bein like rural Indiana. The roads are
very weird, Like it's just notthe same place I would normally walk,
right, So maybe that habit isgoing to be a little bit uncomfortable or
inconvenient for some reason. Most peopledon't adapt at all because they don't have
a mechanism for adapting. They don'thave any kind of like tool that they

(44:13):
can use. So you can useyour values as a tool. So you
ask yourself, Okay, my habitof walking ten minutes a day, why
am I doing that? What isthe value behind it? And maybe the
value is active You want to feellike you exercise Okay. In that case,
I can choose to run around withmy dog in the front yard for
ten minutes every morning, and thatstill embodies that value of active, even

(44:37):
though it's not exactly the same.But I want that ten minute walk because
it makes me feel peaceful. Thenjournaling, even though it looks different,
might be a better choice. Sothe value can be this sort of north
star that helps us adjust across changingcircumstances. I love that. I think
people will love to hear you saythat too, because it really gives you

(44:57):
more options, and I think weneed more options and not feel so confined.
So thank you for saying that.It's really helpful. Yeah, and
I think you brought up something too, like with the holidays and things like
that, going home and lots ofother people's input onto us, and I
think that's so complicated, and Ijust want to recognize that for anyone listening,

(45:19):
like, if that's you create someactivation and anxiety about these conversations with
family. I mean, is thereanything that you're saying to maybe some of
your coaching clients or people that workwith you heading into those time frames.
Yes, So the story I alwaystell is that so there's a book by
Daniel Coyle. It's called The TalentCode, and in it he talks about

(45:43):
the really like what makes people talented, what creates talent? And in one
section he's talking about how a tonof really high level soccer players come from
this very specific town in South America, and he's like, what's up with
this talent, Like, are theylike genetically blessed? Do they just come
out talented? Like what's happening here? And what he realizes is that in

(46:05):
this particular town they play soccer froma very young age, but they play
it in the streets with this ballthat's like smaller and harder than a regular
soccer ball. So essentially they areplaying soccer in a harder arena, like
a harder version of soccer, andthat is what the holidays are for all
of us. So, yes,it is going to be more difficult,

(46:27):
and yes you might fail more,and yes you are going to have to
use more of those skills. Butif you use that time to your advantage,
and if you work through those failures, and if you're willing to focus
on what makes you you showing upas yourself, that can actually almost fast
track some of those skills you needto develop so that everything else seems easier

(46:52):
after that. The other thing,too, that I personally tell people is
that you know, I've had theexperience where I change, I start to
value certain things, and all ofa sudden, I'm in a place with
people that I used to see before, and I know that they expect me
to act a certain way. Theyexpect me to order the pretzel instead of

(47:15):
the salad. They expect me tosit in the living room instead of going
to the gym. And I worryin that moment about violating their expectations because
I don't want to make anyone elsefeel uncomfortable. And that's what it is
for a lot of us. Andwhat I remind myself going into every holiday,
going into every reunion, is ifyou violate someone's expectations today, that

(47:38):
means that you have changed. Thatis the most powerful thing you can do
to reinforce your new identity. Andif you want this identity to stick,
then you're actually crafting the new norm. So next year when you go back,
they're going to expect you to orderthe salad and go to the gym.
And so it can be a reallydifficult time, but it can also

(47:59):
be equally as power. Yeah,definitely, I'd love how you just framed
that. Thank you, It's soimportant to hear. And yeah, I
just I could talk to you allday about this, but we're coming up
to the end of time today.But I ask everyone, so, how
do you build a stronger you?So what are some of the ways that
you personally are prioritizing maybe these valuesor themes and what makes you feel good

(48:22):
around your movement and nutrition. Yes. So I'm in a really interesting season
right now where I am having tobe very flexible because of various factors,
and so for me, I goback to that core four framework. So
the core four I'm working on rightnow are number one, going for a

(48:44):
twenty minute walk with my partner andour dog every morning when we get up.
Number two, doing some form ofmeditation or breath work every single day.
Number three tidying the kitchen for atleast ten minutes before I go to
bed, And number four getting actuallydressed and ready for the day, whether
even if that's just like some earringsand my hair up or whatever, taking

(49:07):
that time to get dressed is hugefor me. So those are my core
poor behaviors that I'm working on rightnow. I love it. Yeah,
And okay, dog is Zoom.Yes, my dog is Zoom. Yeah.
I read that on your website andI was like, that is adorable.
I love that so much. Andyou got him. He's a pandemic
dog. He's named after Zoom becausehe's a pandemic puppy. What kind of

(49:28):
dog is Zoom? He's a blacklab. He has a little bit of
Australian Shepherd in him too. Ilove labs. They're the best. Yeah,
all right, Well, what aresome books that you recommend that our
members read? So if they're like, all right, I want to get
more information on some of the thingswe talked about today. I know you
mentioned the Talent Code, awesome book. What are maybe two or three other
books you love? Yes, So, I don't love self help books because

(49:52):
I think that people gravitate towards thembecause they are procrast alearning instead of actually
taking action in their lives. Sowe'll do that the caveat. The one
that I will recommend that I reallyreally like is Essentialism by David McEwan.
That is one that I think everybodyshould read. It's a difficult read in
the sense that it's a gut punch, but it is a book that really

(50:14):
changed my life. That one reallyhelped me too. I feel way more
productive using some of those strategies.So I'll go off and I'll sign off
on that one too, Lauren,all right, and then I want you
to brag on yourself a little bit. Where can we find you? Because
I follow your amazing content, butI want other people to have access to
it as well. Yes, absolutelyso. My personal instagram is at Caren

(50:35):
Nordine, PhD. You can findprobably more actual tips and tools and information
at Body Brain Alliance. And thenwe're at Bodybrainalliance dot com. You can
find us there. Our Change Academymembership, which is like a monthly workout
membership, but for your brain.It's like you work out to improve your
physical muscles, you do Change Academyto improve your mental muscles. Opening it

(51:00):
in December, it will be twentyseven dollars a month. You get access
to forty eight hours worth of PhDD level tools and application, and so
I would check that out if anybodyis looking for kind of a first step.
I love that And can we joinin January? We have to join
in December. You can join it'llbe open forever. We have some kind
of like discounts for like year andfull and stuff that are happening in December,

(51:22):
but it will be open evergreen theycall it in the online space.
Yes awesome. Well, thank youso so much for this conversation. I
think our members are going to haveso much value out of this. So
Karen, thank you for taking thetime to be with Stronger You today.
Thank you, Thank you for listeningto Stronger You Radio. For more information

(51:44):
about how you can get started witha Stronger You coach, visit stronger you
dot com or click the link inthe episode description. As a special thank
you for listening, we have aStronger You discount code just for our listeners.
Use the code Radio at checkout forfifty percent off your first month of
coaching with Stronger You. Tune innext time for more health and nutrition conversations