Scouting Defensive Backs w/ Fmr. Minnesota Vikings Scout Jeff Robinson | Sumer Scout Deep Dive

SumerSports President of Football Operations and former Atlanta Falcons General Manager, Thomas Dimitroff, interviews SumerSports scout and former Minnesota Vikings scout, Jeff Robinson, for the Sumer Scout Deep Dive series. In this series, Thomas Dimitroff sits down with his scouting staff to discuss their football journey and how they evaluate positions in the NFL.

Article: https://sumersports.com/the-zone/scouting-cornerbacks-key-traits-position-specifics-and-how-data-can-help/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to sumer Scout Deep Dives with another historic figure
at Suomer Sports, Jeff Robinson, formerly with the Minnesota Vikings
for many many years. I mean, Jeff, brother, like you've
been in this league, the NFL for many many years,
You've interacted with a lot of great people. Can you
talk a little bit about your ascension through the ranks

(00:25):
up into that spot, meaning through your high school years
of playing sports in football, your dad was a coach.
We decided, right, we talked about it.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
We did decide that. Yeah, so my dad was actually
the first black coach inducted into the Minnesota High School
Football Hall of Fame. So longtime coach, which you know
basically that that passes down through the bloodlines and you
get the itch as a kid growing up, as you know,
and and it kind of sticks with you because if

(00:56):
your dad is the person that you look up to,
you just follow their ways. I mean, we both know
how that goes.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
We know how that goes. It's such an important influence
on our lives, right, I'm sure how your dad influenced
your life not only to be a football player but
also multi sports, right, And we've talked about that a
lot in scouting about how incredibly important that is when
you're evaluating, especially some of the real athletic positions that
you know, you get a guy a player out there

(01:24):
that's you know, very fluid and athletic and be a
basketball player, a baseball player, a football player, very very important.
Your dad was a multi sport guy, so you were
a multi sport guy, correct.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
That's that's correct. So I played football, basketball, and ran track.
And of course he played football, basketball and ran track.
But there was no lacrosse at that time, which I
probably would have enjoyed. And actually my son played lacrosse,
and with the way the seasons are in Minnesota, you
probably could get a lot longer season if you play
lacrosse and run track in the state of Minnesota. But anyways,

(01:57):
what I've always done is look at the movement skills
of the various sports and see how they apply to
the game of football. You know, when you go to
a gym and you watch kids playing basketball, obviously you
can see their movement skills. But even in a game
like lacrosse, where you see a lot more lacrosse players
playing football in the modern day, you know, obviously, historically

(02:18):
it's been a great game, but it's become more popular now.
But when you watch their movement skills and watch the
way their I had and coordination is, and the way
that they set up defenders when they have the ball
with their stick, then you can see a lot of
things that transfer to the game of football that if
kids actually apply it, they'll learn a lot and it'll

(02:38):
give them an edge going forward. So I've always thought,
you know, to me, playing multiple sports is beneficial as
opposed to just playing one sport where you're basically repeating
everything you do on a daily basis per se.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
I've talked to Chuck Bresnahan about this because his dad
was a coach. Obviously, John Edseicks was a coach. My
dad was a coach, Your dad was a coach. We
have a lot of, you know, coaching background in our worlds.
Interestingly enough, some of us have spent time in coaching,
others went right into personnel. So I just want to

(03:14):
go down that road for a minute. As you moved
through your high school ranks and you started focusing on
what you were going to do in college and where
you were going to go, you decided not to go
to the University of Minnesota, probably right down the street
from you and decided you were going to go to Northwestern.
How was that decision for you? Was it based off
of academics, football, combination.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Of Well, it was based on a combination of things.
Number one, my mom's a teacher, and so she was
always planting the seed in my head. You know, think
about the academic schools, think about the academic schools, not
just the athletic schools. But of course, when you're sixteen
seventeen years old, you're thinking about the powerhouse teams, and
of course the closest one to me then was Nebraska,

(03:56):
and so my last two choices were between Nebraska and Northwestern.
Minnesota was always in my thoughts, but Minnesota, unfortunately for
kids from Minneapolis, they'd never recruited a lot of kids
from the city of Minneapolis, so you know, the school
that I went to was probably four miles away, but

(04:16):
they didn't recruit that hard. And so to me, it
was like, well, if I'm this close and they think
that that kid's better than me, then maybe I should
go somewhere else and come back and play against them. So,
you know, I like the school. I still like the school,
but you know, Northwestern was a better fit for me
because of the academics and the athletics. And originally my

(04:37):
thought was to go into engineering. I was going to
be a civil engineer and you know, take my career
from there. And of course, two years into college, I'm going,
I don't know if I want to sit behind the
desk and you know, drawbridges and you know, roadways and
that type of thing for the rest of my career.
So I kind of switched over, but I still wasn't
thinking about getting into scouting per se. And so the

(04:59):
way that I got into scouting was I went to
Minnesota on a tryout. So I was there on a
workout and I was gonna go to NFL Europe, which
was the World League at that time, and Mike Lynn
was with Minnesota still and he was in charge of
the World League. So he, you know, we talked after
the workout and he says, why don't you stay here
and work and see how you like it, and then

(05:20):
when it's time to go, then we'll both go together.
And so I thought, you know, this would be a
good experience for me either way, because I can see
a different side of the game and I can you know,
be with the vikings close to home, and it's a
win win situation where I looked at it. And at
that time, the only internships were in public relations. There
was no scouting internships, business marketing, none of that. You know, small,

(05:43):
small staff of thirty people, you know, so everybody kind
of overlapped, and I didn't really know anything about public relations,
but you know, I said, Okay, I'll give it a try.
And so of course it gets to be time to
go to NFL Europe and then then Mike lenn goes,
maybe you should think about staying, and of course I went, huh,
is he trying to tell me about my game or
is he thinking about me long term? So long story short,

(06:07):
thirty one years later, I was still there, but I
think ultimately he was trying to tell me about my
game and saying stay and try the other side of
this whole deal. But that's how I actually got into
professional sports. And so I didn't take the actual scouting
you know, the lower levels of scouting and then work
my way up. I took the public relations team operations

(06:31):
and then scouting route as opposed to just you know,
the normal entryway into scouting. So it was different, but
it also helped me because I learned about the different
phases that people need to know about on a daily
basis that go on behind the scenes. And as you
grow in the game, you tend to learn how all
those facets overlap. But you realize the value of those

(06:51):
things the longer that you're in it. So it really
did help me to grow and build a bigger foundation
as to what was really going on behind the game.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, look, I'm convinced even of those of us who
had a coaching background in our family, I eir dads
and then decided to get in personnel having been around
football all my life. I'm sure like you all of
your life you've been around your father coaching sports and
coaching football. It helps develop that. I that we some

(07:20):
of us who are very confident with our great or
grading and evaluation prowess. I EU it has a lot
to do with how we were raised and being around
the game and watching nuances of players, which we'll get
get into in a little bit. Just I want to
make sure I'm clear on this. Did you ever once
think that you wanted to get into coaching? Was it
just an easy transition? Thinking? No, I really do not

(07:43):
want to coach football. I would rather evaluate players and
grow along the personnel side.

Speaker 2 (07:49):
No, I actually had a lot of conversations about that
when I first started out, because obviously the pool goes
both ways. You know, you're closer to the players and
the daily interaction and the actual teaching on the coaching side.
And so Dennis Green was my college coach, the coacher
recruited me in college, and then obviously he came back
and coached with the Vikings. So we talked a long

(08:11):
time about that because he asked me on more than
one occasion if I wanted to coach, and so he
kind of laid out a lot of the different things
as far as one you have to move all the time,
and two you know you're helping, but if you're thinking
about families and that type of stuff, then you know
the scouting might be more of a stable foundation as

(08:32):
far as the long term aspect goes. And he also knew,
of course that I was from Minnesota, and so he
was trying to paint a picture for me, I think,
to say, maybe the scouting side would be a better
fit for you. And then, of course at that time
we had Frank Gilliam, We had Jerry reich Out. We
had Paul Wiggins, so he knew there was a lot
of talented people who could help show me the ropes

(08:54):
as far as the daily goings of scouting goes. And
you know, obviously I could always use him as a
sounding board, but when you're the head coach, you have
so many things going on, and when you're in the
building you realize that anyway, so you don't want to
just keep bothering a head coach about all of your
daily issues. So as as as time went on and
I'm laying all these things out, I just kind of

(09:14):
drifted more towards the actual scouting side, just between listening
to what he was telling me and watching, you know,
watching coaches come and go even in a in a
short time span, it just kind of hit me that
I was probably, based upon my own personality, you know,
better suited to kind of be in more one stable
spot and get into the scouting side.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
I think that's a that's a good point for those
people that are listening thinking, Okay, would I go into
coaching or should I venture into scouting? We all know,
and we've talked about this in other pods and other
other discussions with sumer scouts about making sure you determined
do you want to be a coach or do you
want to be a scout? Remember that all our years,

(09:55):
those old guys that you had there. And by the way,
I want I want to I want to mention this.
I mean Frank Gilliam and Jerry reichow I mean we
used to a friend of mine, lionel Vytel, and I
used to always daydream about that we were in the
World League together and we said, maybe one day we're
going to be the next coming of Frank Gilliam and
Jerry Reichow. Right. For some reason, we thought that because

(10:17):
we all looked up to those men. For those of
you who don't know, I mean, these guys were longtime
football men and very very adepth evaluators and personnel men.
They set the tone for a lot of us in
the history of the NFL as far as personnel and
scouting and what we all aspired to be. So, I mean,
one of the things I want to say to you
is those two men to be under them and a

(10:38):
number of other great scouts there. And like you said
with Paul Wiggins, et cetera, et cetera, a lot of
people in that building that you were around all those years,
not only the personnel men, but the coaches. A lot
of people that just stay in one building all the
time don't get a chance to meet that many people
and interact and learn. Even though you were at Minnesota
for what thirty was at thirty year, how many years

(11:01):
with everyone? Can you talk about some of the people
that you were interacting with who influenced your leadership and
your ability to scout and the team build throughout those years.
A lot of great coaches as well.

Speaker 2 (11:14):
Well. Oddly enough, it was Jerry Burns's last year as
a head coach was my first year there, and so
that that brought me into kind of a different light
as far as swearing NonStop but being a great guy
and things along those lines. But you know, when you
listen to the things that he had to say as

(11:34):
far as what he liked in football players, particularly offensive
football players, you learn so much. And if you look
at the game today, that West Coast offense. I know
Bill Wats gets a lot of credit for it, but
Jerry Burns was using the exact same stuff. And I
don't know which one of them brought it into the
league first, but I mean, the Vikings offense has been

(11:55):
a West Coast offense since I was watching Chuck Forman,
And of course, you know, you walk into the building
and but but Grant's presences is and was always there,
and you know, just to be able to pick his
brain not only about the game of sports, but life
in itself because you know, obviously he was an avid outdoorsman,

(12:16):
but his insight into the little things going on in
life that you could just listen to him and talk
to him about those things were invaluable. A guy like
Scott Studwell, I always like to pick his brain and
I would watch him do a lot of different things,
even though a lot of times he didn't know I
was doing it because I wanted to basically just watch

(12:36):
as opposed to hear what he had to say. And
it was amazing because that was when I first started,
was his last year as a player, and then he
transitioned into scouting. But just knowing that he was a
guy who played defensive line and ended up playing linebacker.
But you could watch the things that he did as
far as learning how to do things in a professional manner,

(12:58):
you know, because it's different. You see when you come
out of college as opposed to somebody like that who's
been around the league so long. So you could watch,
watch and learn so many different things by just watching
how he interacted with all the different people. And then
when you put that together with the guy like with
guys like Frank and Jerry, I mean people don't really
talk about it, but those two were best of friends

(13:19):
going back to Iowa. Now you're talking about you know,
Iowa in the fifties with you know, all the different
things going on in society, and these two guys are
best of friends forever. So when you listen to either
one of them talk and they could always finish each
other's sentences, but they could help you grow and build
such a solid foundation, not just in football but in life.

(13:41):
And then you put that again, like I say, with
Studwell or you know, Paul Wigging, you're just building and
stacking layers. And then you bring in guys like you know,
Dennis Green and Tyrone Willingham and Brian Billick. I mean,
it's just coach after coach, and you know, then you
get guys like Mike Tice who comes in as a
player and ends up becoming a head coach. So you know,

(14:02):
I'm the guy who picked him up at the airport
when when he was still playing, so I could always
pick his brain and get kind of a better understanding
than most as to what he was trying to get accomplished.
And you know, long story short, he does end up
becoming the head coach, but you already knew the type
of things that he was looking for because he had
already built a foundation for himself as both the player

(14:23):
and a coach. And then you know, guys like Jack
del Rio, we'd have just talks after talks all the
time about you know, not just the game itself but life.
You know, he's finishing his career and getting ready to
get into coaching, but we would just talk. I mean,
you talk to guys like Warren Moon about you know,
coaching scouting, what he's seen because he you know, he
had to go to Canada first, and so all the

(14:45):
hardships that you're going through as you're struggling as a
younger scout, but you're also getting the feedback from these
guys who were players, coaches, administrators to kind of build
your foundation because everybody's looking at it through a different lens,
but you can stack a lot of different things and
to kind of help you understand why everything is not
going to be a smooth path per se. So yeah,

(15:07):
there's a lot of different names that came across, even
you know, when I left coach Coach Zimmer was a
head coach and you know, he's gone through a lot
of trials and tribulations, but he would talk to anybody.
It's not like he was opposed to provide an insight
to you. And obviously you know one of his one
of his primary mentees has been you know, Deon Sanders.
So the guy he brought a lot of wisdom. It's

(15:30):
just are you always willing to listen? But I was
always willing. That's one of the things that you learn
as you go through this deal that you know, ask
ask good questions, but make sure you ask questions because
all of these guys bring different thought processes. And as
we both know, it's so hard to build teams because
you have people coming from so many different walks of
life and through so many viewpoints. That if you get

(15:53):
these guys' opinions and understand a little bit better about
you know, if it's a West Coast guy Southern guy,
it helps you to mailed your thoughts as to what
you're really seeing, and that again, it transfers over just
like the different sports do, into how you build that
foundation of what you're looking at in a player and
a team.

Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well, I find it fascinating because oftentimes we think, Okay,
we're just going to learn from the scouting people and
the player personnel people and we'll listen to the coaches.
That's not necessarily the case at all, because you had
outrageously smart and accomplished coaches coming through the Minnesota Viking buildings, right.
I mean, think about that knowledge that you had. I

(16:32):
know you think it, probably about it every day and
you're appreciative of it. But you're learning something for everyone
who had their specialty, right, So it makes you that
much better and more round it as a football man
in applying it to your personnel and your evaluation ability. Correct.
I mean, that's just unbelievable amount of experience, there.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
No question about it. And you know it's two people
that always well, three people that always stand out to
me when I think about what you just said. A
would be Tony Dungee because I was friends with Tony
from when he came here as a quarterback at Minnesota
so I met him while he was on campus at
the University of Minnesota because we had mutual family friends,

(17:12):
and so, you know, he was just Tony to me.
But he's a quarterback. And then all of a sudden,
I'm saying Tony as a defensive coach, defensive corter, and
I'm going, wait, is this the same Tony Dungee? And
so then you put his mind on both sides of
the ball. With a guy like Minnie Kiffin. Now, Paul
Wigan would always tell me, don't ask Money about anything
outside of what defenses to use, because he was so

(17:34):
locked in all the time. But anytime you ask Manni
a question, he would draw it up on a napkin
on a table. I mean willingly. I mean just a
great guy, and he just recently passed, but that was money.
He would go out for a run and he would
come back with a whole new defense because he you know,
he would always be brainstorming on these runs. But what

(17:55):
they would always tell you. And the third guy, sorry,
is Ryan Silverfield, who's now the head coach at Memphis.
So Ryan came here, came to Minnesota, and he had
coached offensive defense. So when he gets here, they didn't
necessarily know what side of the ball to put him on,
so he ends up on the offensive side of the ball,
coaching offensive line. And you know he does that in

(18:17):
college and now he's the head coach at Memphis. So
it's not necessarily just about building the foundation of the
side that you're naturally most comfortable on. It's building and
understanding the other side as well. So what I did
and molded after you know, like I say, watching Tony
more than those others, but after that, it always clicked
in my mind that maybe I should know what that

(18:40):
offensive guy needs to do almost as much as what
I need to do technique wise, and that kind of
helps mold almost more so what you're trying to look
at as far as shaping a player goes. You know,
whether you, if you're a defensive lineman, know what that
footwork is for that offensive lineman, not just the weight
of his hand, but what angles he supposed to be

(19:00):
taking on his drops, and then you can beat him
the same way that you would naturally beat him, but
you probably can do it in two less steps because
you'd already know what he's going to do.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
And so to me that was no, you go ahead please.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
Oh to me, that was once I kind of started
to figure that out. It kind of went back to
my engineering days of build the foundation as you naturally would,
but also understand that there's a way that if you
don't build it right, then the whole thing, like legos,
could fall down. So build and know what you need

(19:37):
to do with your own technique, but also understand exactly
what he's supposed to do, and then you know the
strength and the weaknesses overall on both sides.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
In college, just you played corner correct or your safety corner. Okay,
so you're a corner. I had this conversation with Bobby
to Paul as well as with Chuck Presidahan. You know,
we we all gravitate toward the position we played in
high school and college, right, and that's where we want
to specialize and we want to grow and learn on

(20:08):
other areas. You spend a lot of time at Minnesota
in the personnel department. What position beyond corner was? Were
you like really enthralled with That was kind of on
the other end of the spectrum for you, Like for me,
I spent a lot of time watching O line because
obviously it was never in the trenches. But I loved
it because it was new to me, and I spent
hours and hours in countless report writing to get myself

(20:30):
kind of up to speed. Was there a position like
that for you, Well.

Speaker 2 (20:34):
That was definitely one of them. Linebacker and O line
with the two that always fascinated me and O line
number one because I would have long conversations with Randall
McDaniel all the time, because he would come and take
candy out of my office all the time. Him and
Mike Morse would always mess up my office and take
all the candy at the same time. But so we'd

(20:57):
had long conversations in between about you know, what they
were trying to get accomplished. And you know, a great
former old line coach, John Michaels, of course, was Randall.
Was Randall's position coach for most of his career, and
so I would talk to John. I would talk to
Randall and just listen to what they were applying as
far as technique goes. And that really helped me to

(21:18):
get a better understanding as far as the synchronicity that
they always had to have, and it also probably helped me.
We had a guy named Jeff Christy, I don't know
if you remember that name or not. But when he came,
he was a fullback, and then when he left, he
was a Pro Bowl center. And so as he was
learning how to play center, that helped me to understand

(21:38):
a lot of what was going on because he was
starting from scratch as a center, so all everybody's trying
to show him how to play center, and so I
could listen and take a lot of notes and develop
kind of not to say, a comfort zone, but a
better understanding of what it took for him because he
had to, you know, make the calls, get everybody lined up,

(22:00):
and make sure he had that first step right because
everybody was counting on him. So that really helped me
to get a good understanding of old line play and
the linebacker play kind of fascinated me because as I
saw the game evolving, you know, as far as this
positionless football goes, Now, where you've got you know, two
linebackers or you know, whatever they are, since some teams

(22:22):
are using two hundred and fifteen pound linebackers, I'm not
sure how it all intertwines, but it just kind of
fascinated me as to how this whole safety linebacker interchange
was evolving. And through that it just you know, and
I still look at it now and I go, well, okay,
if this guy is two hundred and eighteen pounds and
he's a college junior, what is he really going to

(22:44):
be in the modern game in five years? You know,
so you have to really hone in on not only
his mental abilities but his physical abilities. You know, is
he tough enough? Does he have the feet to move
back ten yards? And you know, as the game is
played now, a lot of these guys they could play
both realistically, Yeah, you know, it just comes down a

(23:07):
matter if they can make the calls or not. So
that's kind of what fascinated me with this whole linebacker issue.
But really, old line was that one besides corner. And
you know, if you play corner, you're in enough safety
rooms to where you get a feel for that. But
that linebacker deal is, it's evolved so much now to
where you don't know which one of these spots these
guys are going to play a lot of times just

(23:28):
because of their body structures.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
So you scout, you focus, and everyone knows this. If
the listeners are continuing to listen to us as football
men and personnel men in the NFL. You evaluate every position,
and hopefully you're very good at evaluating every position, you
also still focus on the passionate one that you really
love for you that happens to be corners. Of course,
we'll get into that in a minute. I'm going to

(23:51):
ask you a question that a lot of people ask
forgive me for asking this. They ask it at dinners,
they ask it at picnics, they ask it at party.
What was your biggest bang on the table moment for
a football player in your entire thirty year career, one player?
If you can narrow it down, do you remember that
whole time?

Speaker 2 (24:12):
I'll give you. I'll give you two. The first one
would be Adam Thielen because we had our training camps
in Mankato, and Adam Thielen played receiver in man Cato.
So all of a sudden, there's this guy that everybody's
talking about with all these great numbers, and he's right
in Mankato, you know. So you see him walking to

(24:32):
practice every day and nobody's talking about him while we're there,
and then of course you leave and he's just lighting
it up, right, So you go, Okay, So this guy's
from Minnesota. He's at man Cato and they only gave him,
you know, five hundred dollars for a scholarship. So he
you know, it's not like he was even there on
a full ride, and he's just lighting it up. So

(24:53):
then he goes to this regional combine I don't know
if you remember the regional combines from you know, eight
ten years ago, and he lights it up there, you know,
and so I go, I better find out a little
bit more about this guy, right, So I called him
after I talked to him first after the first regional combine,
and then I see him at the next one because
he got invited to the next one, and we talked

(25:13):
a little more. So we just kind of became friends.
And so probably a month before the draft, I called
him again. I said, I don't know what's gonna happen,
but just remember I got you. If nothing happens, don't
forget you're coming here for a tryout, right, So you know,
he just kind of hangs in the wind, and of
course nobody nobody calls and I called him. I said,

(25:37):
I told you, I got you, right, and he's like, yeah,
but my agent, I'm like, don't worry about what he said.
Just remember I said, I got you right. So he
comes for you know, rookie minicamp, and you know, the
guy's still playing. Now. He's the oldest receiver in the league,
I think. So that's the first one, the second.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
Oldest receiver in the league. As you know, Jeff, he's
also did I see him on that at that golf tournament?
He was like in the top ten or twelve, like
out out and yeah he's a great golfer. Holy smokes.
Yeah he was out.

Speaker 2 (26:07):
American Herodage, that's American Hedge Classic. So what people didn't
realize was he was a better golfer in high school
than he was a football player. He was on the
golf team. Oh well, so people didn't realize that. What
you know, when you watch him catch a ball, you go, well,
this makes sense. So great athlete. But he's in Detroit Lakes,

(26:27):
which is just a little small town, you know, in
up close to the North Dakota border, just lighting it up,
and so nobody's thinking he can play. What the guy
is just you know, altra talented. And of course again
you get him. Once you get him, then you go, huh,
we better not let him leave. And so so he's
still doing it.

Speaker 1 (26:47):
That's amazing. No, it's amazing to see that. You said
you had a second one.

Speaker 2 (26:51):
So my second one is a guy named Eric Moss.
Now I don't know if you remember that name or not,
but he's got a brother, ain't Randy, so Eric. So
Eric is a tackle at Ohio State or excuse me, yeah,
tackle slash tight end. So he's kind of bouncing around,

(27:12):
you know, big guy, just you know, borderline, borderline everything,
but an ultra talented athlete. Right. So I probably got
four calls about Eric Moss and I'm like, well, who
is he? You know, everybody keeps saying you might want
to bring him in and take a look at him, right,
And I'm like, well, why well you might. Just nobody
at first would tell me that he's Randy's brother. So

(27:33):
I'm researching him, and you know, he's borderline academically, borderline playing.
I'm like, all right, we're gonna, you know, let me
pound for him, because everybody's talking about how bad his
brother is as a person. But I am thinking in
my mind, if we can talk to Eric, and I
know they're tight, then we might be able to get

(27:55):
his brother to come to town a few times and
just see what his brother is really all about. So
we get Eric on the practice squad, and of course
who shows up to check on his brother Randy. So
me and Randy have been great friends ever since. That's great.
Obviously you don't know, obviously if you be able to

(28:18):
draft Randy. But when it came time, I'm like, well,
you've already seen Randy. You know, you like him where
you don't like him, but he knows Minnesota. So those
are my two stories.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Those are great. I mean, we all have so many
of them, they're tough to differentiate which is more impactful.
And again, you've heard him many times, You've heard people
pound on the table. I remember those all through the
years of you know, being in the league basically twenty
eight years and probably thirty five with other pro league's
CFL and the World League to your point, and traveling

(28:52):
that much and being around and being around a football
program for that long as you were. I want to
segue into another question, that's probably what's your best story?
Being on the road. Doesn't have to be the evaluation.
It could be the travels, it could be you know,
being in the office until whatever time players coming through.
Because you were obviously on that pro side. It was

(29:13):
a little bit different than you know, being out on
the road all the time on the college side. Right, although,
did you spend both times on both sides.

Speaker 2 (29:20):
Yes, so I'll give you one from each. So the
college side, I go to do a cowboy game, but
first they sent me to Tarleton State to go watch
a tight end slash long snapper, you know, Tarleton, Southern Texas.
So I go down there, I get out of the car,

(29:41):
you know, parking their normal parking lot. I get out
of the car and my foot just sinks. I'm like, huh,
it smells kind of fall out here, Like what is
this low? You know, you just in a normal parking lot.
And then so I look around and I'm trying to
figure out, well, what happened to my shoe? And I'm
stepping in where they trained their horses and the cows.

(30:02):
They use the parking lot for their halftime show. But
they're telling everybody that guy tells me just park over there,
no big deal. So all these horses and I mean cows,
I'm like, there's cows out here for halftime. So long
story short, I'm stepping out of the car into all
this manure that they haven't put a bucket out or anything,

(30:23):
and they got all these animals out that they're getting
ready for. I don't know if they did a rodeo
at halftime. I don't know what they did. But yes,
here's me with these stinky shoes walking into their building,
having to talk to all these coaches. They're all just
cracking up. It be like, I guess they sent you
to the wrong spot. Huh.

Speaker 1 (30:40):
That's a good story. Those those are ones where you're like,
my gosh, what am I really doing out here in
the middle of nowhere? So that was that was Charles State.
How about on the pro side.

Speaker 2 (30:50):
So the pro side, I check into my hotel and
I'm doing a Cowboys game, not this Cowboy game. But
of course they have a long snapper if you remember,
named Jeff Robinson. So I check into the hotel, No
big deal, you know, give the ID, do all the
things you do normally at a hotel, get in my room.
I'm just you know, da da da. I go back

(31:12):
down to the lobby, or try to go to the lobby,
and here come the Cowboys checking in. So the first
guy that I see, of course, is Larry Allen, you
know who just passed, and now that hallway is however
many feet and by the time I got to where
Larry was, I'm walking sideways right, and I know what
Jeff Robinson looks like, because everybody goes, well, are you

(31:33):
the long snapper? You know, I've heard it enough times.
So I'm walking down towards the lobby and here he comes,
and I go, uh, oh, Larry Allen's in front of
me and you're behind him. This could be a problem.
So long story short, I cut him off with the
pass and I go, Jeff, I think they gave me
your key, so let me go get my stuff real fast,
get out of here. So I'm you know, so I go, well,

(31:59):
why did you give me? Here's Keith? Well, your name
is Jeff Robinson. I'm going this probably isn't good. If
Larry Allen's leading away, I might not make it to
this game, you know. And you know how big Larry
Allen was.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Uh, I mean, that's exactly right on a bad day.

Speaker 2 (32:14):
He's a guy.

Speaker 1 (32:16):
So how did Jeff take that? That's funny? Like did
he was? He just like, hey man, nobody you had
your h what.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
Are you talking about? Yeah? But he knew, he knew
who I was, but he had never seen me. So
I'm like, Jeff Robinson, nice to meet you, Jeff Robinson.
I'm like, come with me.

Speaker 1 (32:30):
We got to get this done real, that's great, I'm
out of I mean the same kind of thing. Oh no, no,
that's exactly right. I mean unbelievable. Yeah, you're exactly right.
I think about that often, Jeff. Again, just against stories
and pound on the table stories or food stories, expense

(32:53):
check stories, whatever. There's so many things going on tripping.
I remember, you know there were times when, like as
a college scout, you know, you get to that last
two or three weeks. Man, you are enervated, you're beaten up,
and you're trying to keep your eyes awake. You're you know,
you're rushing around to try to bring bagels or donuts
to staffs. And you get college staffs. You know, if
they're not a real supportive scouting staff, football coaching staff

(33:17):
at a college, they're looking at you with a rye eye,
give me those bagels, and you're just thinking, really, just
want the bagels, yeah, exactly, or the donuts. I mean,
they would get pissed, some of them will get upset
because you brought bagels. They're like, I don't want bagels.
I mean, give me some donuts.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
And they know they're not going to help you anyway,
they just want them.

Speaker 1 (33:38):
That's exactly I remember many of those times. But you know,
again those stories we talk about them. To bring it
back to scouting. You know, there's a lot of stories
in scouting positions and nuances and approaches to scouting. Let's
talk cornerback, right, let's talk your passion, let's talk your expertise,
amongst many other positions. Of course, curious, because you played,

(34:02):
did you always know that when they were coming down
to sort of divvying out the position expertise evaluations. We
did that in New England. We did it in Atlanta
after the season was over. We definitely gave the people
that we knew were the probably what we deemed as
not only the best at it, but had the most

(34:23):
experienced scouting that position that position to in fact evaluate right,
So we might have someone who had done evaluated receivers
for fifteen years between different clubs, so he became in
the you know, in the off season, he became the
expert in receivers, corners, linebackers, et cetera. When you look
back on your decision to focus in on corners and

(34:47):
thinking about coming to table, to the table. When you
think about coming to the table evaluating corners, what is
the first thing that you start with, Like how do
you come into that evaluation of that corner.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
What I do actually with every position, but more so
with corners, is I basically just come in with a
blank slate, so I'll watch three or four plays and
not write anything down, so I can just watch how
they move, get a feel for what their body actually
looks like, and then I'll start to actually do an
evaluation on them. So then the next thing is I

(35:20):
always look for is just to look at their length,
because their length, no matter what their height is, will
help them to make plays in the passing lanes and
to get their hands on balls, things of that nature.
So from there I move from you know, alignment, stance technique,
you know, you move into those areas, but the quickness factor,
you know, the quickness to burst. But the foot strike

(35:42):
is something that I really look at because the way
that your foot, the way that you push off going backwards,
and then the way you come back and burst with
that foot strike is very important overall as a sprinter
as a as a football play basketball player. But a
lot of athletes don't properly use their foot strike. And

(36:02):
you can watch a lot of guys when they even
line up in their stance and just see where their
weight is positioned on their body and go, it's gonna
take them an extra step because of the way that
their body is positioned and the way that they push off,
and the way that a lot of these kids are taught.
Now you know, they don't they're not able to push
off with both feet evenly. You know, it used to

(36:24):
be where you know, a lot of guys would be
right corners because they can only push off with their
with their right foot, just like lineman. You know, a
lot of guys couldn't couldn't put their left hand on
the ground. But the way it is now, you have
to be able to push off evenly to keep to
keep things even with your body on either side of
the field, and that foot strike is really important. So
that's one of the things that I really hone in

(36:46):
on is the foot strike because a it gives you
a faster push going backwards, but it also lets you
come back with the burst even that much quicker going forward.
When you have to close on the ball. So what
you'll see a lot of times again in the modern game,
is you'll see a lot of guys basically playing sideways
in their stands. And now that that in itself creates

(37:08):
a whole different foot strike. But you'll see guys where
when they actually have to make a movement besides just shuffling,
it takes them an extra step because of their weight
isn't distributed properly, and now they're a step behind. And
as you know, the difference between the college game and
the pro game with the way those guys can get
the ball out of their hand, that'll get you, you know,

(37:30):
that's first down touchdown, because if that receiver can get
the ball, you know, before you can get that weight
distributed right, they'll be gone. And so those are the
things that I look at first, and then I go
into the you know, obviously the heights, the weights and
things of that nature, and then the overall speed. But
you know, it's the short area movements that I look
for first first and foremost, and then I spread it

(37:51):
out into the longer movements, and then lastly I move
it to the eyes because you know, a lot of
people ask about the difference between men and zone corners,
and a lot of things are determined a by the
physical makeup. But you can't play zone. You can't be
a zone corner if you don't have the eyes and
the intelligence to play zone corner. And so when I

(38:13):
get asked questions like that, you know, obviously you want
to you want to basically check all the boxes to
to become that top guy. But that aptitude level is
very important in your overall play. I mean, you can't
you can't be a zone corner period. If you can't
you know, instinctively move based upon what you're seeing. And

(38:33):
so that to me is a huge factor. And I
put it, you know, closer to middle to end than
the things that I look for. But you know, again,
when people say, well can this guy play zone or
can this guy play man, you have to put all
those things into the equation because if the guy is
big and he looks good and he can run, but
he can't see it, then there's no way you can
have him play zone because you know he's gonna make

(38:54):
them many mistakes.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
That's a great point, man, I have so much I
can talk about with corner is because I love evaluating
them as well. We picked a number of corners and
made moves in my years in both Atlanta and in
New England when I was there as a personnel director.
One of the things that I noticed, especially when I
got to Atlanta and I was focused on it growing

(39:17):
up in the business watching corners. I love fluid athletes, right,
I think this is a good point to talk about. Yes,
there are some really fluid athletes that you love watching.
They move well, turn and run, break on the ball.
Everything looks good, compact and in place. And yet there's
also the other side, the people that are a little
longer and lankier and long levered, and they're not really

(39:39):
pretty looking athletes as far as movement and fluidity, but
they get the job done right. There's a difference there.
The one other thing is on that really fluid athletic
hips are smooth. He's running in phase. He looks good,
but he can't make the damn play on the ball.
His ball skills are non existent. And I won't go

(40:00):
into this because there's a guy that we drafted I loved.
I think he was one of the best moving athletes.
But it was something that we dealt with all the
time was why isn't he getting more interceptions? Why isn't
he coming down with the ball that he should. That's
a very important part of a corner. You have to
have ball skills comments.

Speaker 2 (40:18):
There's no question about that. I think the difference between
a guy making ten or fifteen million and a guy
making two man is what you just said. You know,
there's a lot of guys who can line up and
be even, but to make the big play, it's a
whole different deal. And there's that moment of truth that
always happens where everything gets quiet and either he's gonna

(40:40):
get it or you're gonna get it. And a lot
of guys again going back to that whole mental aspect,
because physically you're there, but mentally you can't finish. And
sometimes it's just you get the brain locked. Sometimes you
don't have the hands, and usually if you don't have
the hands, you can work on the hands, but there's
something that has to click mentally for you to make
that play in your mind. And some guys never get it,

(41:03):
you know, and some it gets overlooked because they are
such good athletes. But again, when you get in the
NFL or the pros, that moment of truth becomes magnified
because the other guy is just as good or better,
And so when you can't do it, it becomes glaring,
not just this week, but then again the next week
and the next week, or however many times it happens.

(41:24):
And then after a while you start going, what did
we not see in this guy? But in college he
could probably make that play because the competition wasn't quite
as good. But then you put him in the pros
and that guy is just a little bit better, and
now his brain is going, oh, wait a minute, he
might be just a little bit better, and I'm not
feeling real good about myself, and you can't simulate it

(41:47):
in practice. Ever, you know, the only time you can
simulate that in practice is probably right now when training
camp starts. And even then, who knows what level of
speed that If that guy thinks that he's the top guy,
he's probably he's getting his feet right, but he's not
finishing like he should all.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
The time, and just you know, no matter, that's a
great point, Jeff, I mean, I think, for again, for
the listeners, what Jeff is referring to, I'm sure and
you can expound on it. Is you know this time
of year, you can make plays on balls, and you
can go up and battle, and if you guys tangle
up a little, it's much more expected. You're not doing
that once the season starts, if you're out there. I

(42:24):
remember one of our corners was like in phase with
Julio Jones in year one, and Julio is a big competitor.
They're tangling up, and I was so mad. I was
ready to like cut the defensive back right away, just
because I thought, you're messing with our studs out here.
And that's not fair because I believe in competition. But
just understand that it is complicated. And you made a
great point here. Remember, ball skills are far from just hands.

(42:48):
Some guys do have good hands, but their ball skills
to track the ball and get down not only making
the play catching the ball, but coming over top of
someone and knocking the ball down. Their ball skills go
much further than just hands. To your point, some can
work on their hands, as you know. Some others just
will never have the hands, but they do have ball skills.
So it's a it's a it's a really interesting nuance

(43:10):
that I think is important for corners.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Of course, Yeah, and I think to your point that
you know, A, you only get short windows to work
on these things where it's actually competition without it being
a game. But B how hard is that guy really
wanting to work on that if he's used to just
knocking the ball down? A lot of times that apathy
sets in there, like I'm good, I got this many

(43:33):
PBUs good even though me and you both know you
get that pick six and everything looks a lot better
for everybody. But that doesn't always click with with everybody, unfortunately,
And that's part of being on that island outside that
you know that there's gonna be that moment of truth
and if you really shine, the great one shine. When
that happens, the rest they just become that that next

(43:56):
tier of guys. So it always plays out like that.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
That's exactly right, I would say to you if I
asked you again, there are corners that are the complete
corner package. Rightly. Those guys can get drafted quite high,
I meaning they can support the pass like they would
do and they can support the run. If I asked
you to comment on that, I mean, there are some
really talented cover, pure cover corners and then but they're

(44:24):
not the best tacklers. They may be a four or
a five tackling for those out there don't know our
grading scale fours, average, fives, adequate, or basically above average.
I mean, where are you on that can would you
recommend drafting a corner that wasn't a complete corner but
he was a shut down corner and was just a
four an average run support tackling corner.

Speaker 2 (44:49):
My thought is, always, particularly since the rules have changed,
that you need the guy who can run and cover
in space because there's not a lot of guys that
are playing who can cover those top receivers in space
anymore with the way the rules are. You know, in
college those guys can hand fight all the way down
the field, and in the pros that doesn't happen. You know,
a lot of these corners develop bad habits because of

(45:12):
what they're able to do in the college game that
they can't get rid of. And again, making those moment
of truth plays in space against those top guys. There's
only a handful of guys who can do that now.
As long as you can make that tackle, and me
being a smaller corner, I know when that big back
or big receiver is out there, you know trying to
beat you down all day long. If you get them

(45:33):
on the on the ground, you take that as a victory.
It's not gonna look pretty, but the sticks don't move.
As long as he goes down to me, I'll take
that all day long. Because it's a lot harder to
find guys who can make plays in space consistently in
the passing game. In the modern game. You know, it
used to be before the rule changes where you wanted

(45:54):
that more physical guy coming up. You know, there was
a lot more cover too, so those guys were always
closer to the line scrimmage looking into the backfield to
make plays. As long as you were tough enough, you know,
to shake shed that receiver come up and make that
physical tackle, then hey, you had a spot. I mean,
Rende Barbers in the in the Hall of Fame now
because he was a great cover two corner. But when

(46:15):
those rules change and now you know there's not quite
as much cover two or that big physical zone corner,
you've got to have that guy who can run and
make plays in space because the ball is in the air.
And thus, again when you're playing with two hundred and
fifteen eighteen to twenty pound linebackers. Your game is basically
to make sure that that ball gets knocked out of

(46:36):
receiver's hands, if at all possible, not to come up
and fill on those runs.

Speaker 1 (46:40):
Just get them down, get them down. And so let's
that leads into a really interesting conversation I'd like to
talk about before we move on, and that is, okay,
we've talked about sort of covered corners versus run support corners,
you know, and or the accommodation. Let's talk about outside
versus inside corners and the nuances for those those positions

(47:00):
when you're in that process of early on looking at
a player and analyzing those early moments. I have my
answer for this, believe me, for doing a ton of corners,
which I love doing of course, like you, and probably
within I don't know how many players would you say
that you'd say inside or he's outside, he's outside, can fly,

(47:21):
but you're not. Stop, start guy, whatever. Tell me about
that process and how quickly it is for you to
figure that out and or do what do you contemplate
to try to determine whether you're saying he's an outside
corner or an inside corner.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
So it used to be a lot faster for me
to determine that. But again, now in this age of
positionless football almost where you know, a lot of times
the safety's covering outside guys or you know, slot guys
or whatever, there's a lot more overlap. So it takes
me a little bit longer than it used to to
actually determine it. You know, it used to be the

(47:54):
small guy, you'd say, okay, let's put him, you know,
we'll put him in the slot and covers nickel. But
a lot of time now that slot receiver becomes that
two hundred and twenty pounds you know, outside guy who
they put in there to be the physical guy. So
you have to you kind of have to readjust your
thoughts a lot of times. And so toughness a becomes
a huge factor, not necessarily your height, but your toughness

(48:18):
and your quickness factors because obviously with a lot of quick,
quick movement inside routes, you have to be able to
change directions quick, but you also have to have enough
speed to get over the top, and you have to
be tough enough to come off the edge and blitz
and you know, disrupt the quarterback if need be on
you know, on the blitzes. So that inside guy has

(48:39):
a lot of responsibilities that the outside guy doesn't necessarily have.
And the number one thing that I've come to see
over the well, I've always seen it, but it's more
prevalent now, I think, is how you can mentally see
things happening really fast because so many, so many times
it's multiple receips that are coming at you at one

(49:02):
time that you have to be able to a diagnose
it and be adjust really really quick to be able
to impact that play. And not a lot of guys again,
you know, going to the attitude level can mentally make
make that diagnose and adjust fast enough to disrupt the play.
And if you can't do that mentally, then you can't
you can't play inside. Now again, the sis factor comes

(49:25):
in a lot of times because if it's third and
four and they move that two hundred and twenty pound
receiver inside, he's probably gonna get a high ball if
you're five to ten, and if you're six three and
he's five seven or five nine, then he's probably gonna
get a low ball and he's gonna put you on
his hip. So you know, it's not always just you know,
move the small guy inside. It might be the small

(49:47):
guy has to play outside depending on what team and
how they use their multiple receiver sets. So that guy
almost he has to be able to play outside, but
he has to be smart enough with his diagnose and
reactions to play inside and tough enough to come off
the edge a to blitz, but B he has to
stop that running back if they run it.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Well, we were very often in my time in New England,
and I carried it over to Atlanta when I was there.
It was very particular with our staff and myself to
distinguish between You know, there are multiple phases or abilities
of these corners, right, Some can play both inside and outside.
My thought was always, well, sort of categorize that, right.

(50:28):
If you're saying as an outside slash inside, that means
he's more of an outside, but it can play inside
in a situation and vice versa. Right, Because it's all
about comparatives, right, Jeff, You know this when you're building
for the team, and especially as a pro guy, definitely
as a college guy as well. The head coaches in
the GM want to know, how does that player, how
does this corner compare to your your stall of corners? Right?

(50:51):
If you have five or six corners in there and
you have a stud defense you're trying to bring in
another corner man. He's got a lot to live up to.
But it's your job as a personnel evaluator to determine
how he, being the next corner up, might overtake the
number three, four or five corner because he possesses this trait,

(51:11):
that trait in the other trade. Right, So I think
that's a big thing, and we could go on and
all talking about that, but I just wanted the listeners
to know how important that is to make sure that
you have a really firm grasp first of your team.
Whether you're a college scout or whether you're a pro scout,
you better know your team that you're scouting for inside
out and their abilities, their shortcomings, et cetera, et cetera.

(51:34):
Any comments on that as you're putting together your you
know every year, year to year, how you're putting together
your players.

Speaker 2 (51:41):
Well, I think you're totally right in what you're saying,
because the guy who can play nickel these days a
lot of times, and you see this more and more
in the college game also ends up playing free safety
a lot of times. So I think the aptitude part
of it comes into play. But it also comes down to,
as you know, when you're trying to when you're trying
to create a number of situation with how many guys

(52:02):
you can keep or put on a practice squad. If
a guy can play outside and play nickel and in
a pinch play safety, now you've basically eliminated one of
your numbers that you need on the active roster. So
that guy becomes that much more valuable. And if a
young guy is coming in and he's smart enough to
pick up on all those things, now you're really talking

(52:25):
about somebody. So what you see a lot of times
again in college these days, because you know they're using
Nichols or linebackers or whatever they're calling them in so
many situations, you're seeing these guys who have the potential
to cover receivers, but they're also smart enough to move
back in a pinch and play and play safety. Some
you know, guys like Terry and Arnold who just came

(52:46):
out of Alabama, he was a safety first and then
he became a corner. So ultimately when he's at the
end of his career, he probably will end up playing
safety again because he's that smart. And so now with
that versatility that adds an extra num to your room
as far as your your game day and your situational play.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
That's a great point and I think about it often
about you know, again, figuring out what what group you
need when you look at your secondary as a team builder,
as a GM, and as a personnel director, you're looking
at those group of play those groups of players, and
you're trying to determine what part of that group do
you need to replace. When we go into drafts, we
would always have, you know, areas, we would have sort

(53:27):
of areas that we knew that we needed to bolster
in other areas that we knew that we could we
were satisfied with where we were and that was a
big part of how we built our teams, of course,
just making sure that we were truly focused on the
skills at those particular positions, which leads me into another question.
When you go into evaluating corners, you've seen a lot

(53:49):
of corners, not only in your organization of course, but
especially being on the pro side, you see a lot
of the apples to apples corners. Right, do you have two, three,
or four or do you have a bevy of corners
that you compared to doesn't matter where they are. They
could be, you know, two years in the league, or
they could be twenty years. You still go back to,
like this guy reminds me of ever since Walls, and

(54:09):
you're like, oh my gosh, we're talking about way way
back a guy who's big, lanky and runs a four
to seven eight, which doesn't happen a whole bunch anymore. Right,
do you use those comparatives that that's true?

Speaker 2 (54:21):
But the two guys that I kind of always use
as benchmarks, well three guys, sorry, Dion Sanders, Rod Woodson,
and Charles Woodson are the three benchmarks that I kind
of always use. And two of those three actually finished
as safeties at the end of their career because of
what we just talked about their aptitude levels. Now, Dion,

(54:42):
I mean you could you could put Dion and Darryl
Green in a whole separate category as far as you
know their speed, their movement skills, you know, the things
that they could do on a football field. You cannot
duplicate what they could do. But Charles Woodson and Rod Woodson,
whether it was offensive defense, their movement skills were so

(55:04):
smooth and so fast that a lot of times, and
it played out because they both did play on offense
that you know, they and they were so smart that
they could anticipate with their brain but also with their
feet and speed that they would get underneath the route
and just keep on going with the ball, you know,
and obviously again that they were smart enough at the

(55:26):
later stages of their careers where both of them ended
up playing safeties. But those guys, when you watch their
movement skills and their aptitude levels, that that's kind of
what I always in my mind go, Okay, I know
what that guy looks like, and I know what he
was the top guy, So how close can these other
guys get to that? And like you said, you know
there's always the Larry Brown's and you know the Everson Walls,

(55:49):
who you know, they're using their brain power to get
a jump on the ball. You know, they're not the
best athletes, but they're smart enough to realize the situations
that they're in and go make plays. And then you
have other guys who are more man de man guys,
you know, guys like Xavier Rhoads. You know, you didn't
necessarily want him playing deep zones, but you wanted him

(56:09):
rolled up in somebody's face because he's two hundred and
twenty pounds and runs a four to four. So, yeah,
you're looking at the movement skills. But to me, the
thing that separates those great ones is their mental aptitude
and how fast that they can make those adjustments and
help the guy next to him make the adjustments because
of what they see or what they do with their

(56:30):
movement skills. And I think those are the guys who
transcend with the way the game has changed and the
evolution of the game as far as the rules and
the passing game goes. Those guys can play in any
would be able to play no matter what, because a
they're mentally so smart, but b because they're physically elite.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
So we talk a lot about corners. Again, we could
talk all night about him, of course, and watch a
lot of VIDs when we get a chance. And you know,
you were in here. I was what a few months ago,
obviously before the draft, and we were going over all
the corners and I was immersing and I hadn't step
out a couple different times. But I loved listening to
it because it brought me back to the passionate secondary evaluators.

(57:14):
So it was great, which leads me into you know,
Suomer Sports, right. I mean, it's one of the things
that we believe is so important with how we've put
this together, right on the football operation side. First of all, right, Jeff,
when you think about it, you think about the group
of people we have and the conversations we have, and
the subjective analysis that we have second to none. Honestly,

(57:35):
I say this humbly, but I would say go toe
to toe with any staffs because we have such a
well rounded staff. And then you know, you talk often about,
you know, the ability to add the objective side, which
you and I didn't grow up with it. We use
stats of course, box scores. Things are changing fast right

(57:57):
as you watch Somer. Now, I'll just ask you, SUMER
growing and evolving over the last year, and as we
go into our next year of all being together, what
is your take on it and how do you think
SUMER Sports and our football operations could help an organization?

Speaker 2 (58:13):
Well, the thing that I found most interesting in listening
to others, which kind of was my whole plan to
start with, was just listening to the analytics guys talk
about the formulas that they use based upon the scouting
reports that we put together. I mean, I had a
great time listening to the scouts that you know, some
of them, I just knew their names, and you know,

(58:35):
I've been around them in informal situations. But then when
you added on listening to guys who hadn't been around
scouts in a formal situation, and they're telling you about
the whole process of what they're looking at when they
apply all these formulas, I was somewhat fascinated, a because
I had never heard it from an analytical viewpoint to

(58:57):
that depth before, but also because of the fact that
I was able to apply a lot of the situations
that I had in my mind and get the answers
from them as to how it plays out when they're
actually using their formulas. So, for instance, when you're talking
about like we were talking about with the Nickels, there's

(59:19):
a radius in my opinion, for the quickness factor that
you need to play Nickel in third and four situations
versus third and eight to twelve situations. And basically there's
a formula that they've already used that applies to these
situations to tell you how quick this guy has to
be to a get from point A to point B

(59:41):
in one situation versus another situation, And then there's also
there's that situation, but then there's another situation where you
talk about how fast this guy has to be able
to flip his hips and get to a spot from
almost like a combine effect per se, but in real
time to have success beating a deep ball at a

(01:00:01):
certain angle. So all of these things, you know, when
you think about it when you're watching film and you go, huh,
I wonder how fast it really took for these top
guys to gather their feet and come back and break
on the ball or get to that deep spot. They
can give you the analytical formula because it's sitting right
there for them, and that's what they're studying all the time.
And that's the things that fascinated me about it. It's

(01:00:21):
not just going, well, this is what I saw him do,
but now you're putting it together with the numbers that
they already have, and you're going, Okay, well, now I
know what I actually thought was right. And then sometimes
you go, I don't know if he can make it
because if this formula is correct, which I think these
formulas are all correct, and you go he's probably gonna
struggle when he has to deal with top competition in
these certain phases. And really, as we both know, the

(01:00:44):
game is broken down into different phases. And so when
you apply these formulas with your scattering reports and then
you look at the different phases, you go, well, this
is really beneficial to break down whether this guy can
actually get it done in these phases. Not just but
when you need him to make a play on third
and five or third and twelve, can he actually get

(01:01:06):
to where he needs to be to make that play
in a pro game.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
It's a great point that you stress. And as far
as the formulas and algorithms and that data that is
at all of our disposal now and you look at
the NFL. Now I've said this, I think the data
that is available is criminally underutilized. That sounds really exaggerated,
but I do believe it. And what we're doing here

(01:01:30):
at Suomer Sports of course and Suomer Scout as we
dig down into our offerings, right, Jeff, It's not black
box in any way, no way at all. It is
an augmentation tool for the general manager, for the AGM
and the personnel directors to utilize. Again, the subjective side
and the objective combination.

Speaker 2 (01:01:51):
I think the best part to me overall is it
allows you to split the hairs in the finite situations.
So you're right, it's not and why. And of course
you know you can do whatever you want to with
data and assuage it to whatever you want the outcome
to be. But when you put these type of formulas
into these scenarios, if you're trying to split hairs about

(01:02:13):
what players to keep in free agency or what players
to draft, and you're looking at the way again in
these different situations that these guys make their movements and
finish and make plays or whatever you need to pull
out of this, then these finite formulas can take you
over the top it. And it actually helped me with

(01:02:35):
some of these final grades because again, when you put
when you put the guys that you like into these formulas,
some of them don't measure up it and it basically
five years from now, it might save you a lot
of money because they didn't measure up. And obviously you
can break that down and analyze it any way you
want to, but when you use the structure that's set up,

(01:02:55):
it's not just numbered data, it's it's data that helps
the situations that you need to win football games.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
Look, Jeff, I would say this, and you remember this
because you've been in the league a long time. I
remember when I first joined, and I remember you know,
they were using data and statistics of course, and analyzing forever. Right.
We get that at a certain level when you were
a scout, not you, but when I, you and any
of our contemporaries were scouts in those early years, especially

(01:03:26):
back in the early nineties, probably in the eighties and
beyond that, you were basically scrutinized if you were a
scout that not only didn't just use your eyes, but
had to supplement with the data out there. What a
turn of events. Now, if you go in and you're
just the subjective guy and you're not open minded enough

(01:03:47):
to filter in the data that's available to help you
get to that final decision, you are looked upon as
a myopic football person. And back in the day that
was perfect. And now they're saying you need to take
all the information on top of your very good evaluation
prowess and come to the final grade. I just find
it fascinating. Do you think the league as it's evolving

(01:04:10):
is ready to really focus in on the importance of
both subjective and objective in the analysis.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
Well, I think there's guys, like you said early on,
that would frown on it. But now those guys are
all fossils, and you know they're few and far in between.
I think now in the modern day, and I tell
this to kids all the time, that if you don't
take some type of analytical class or you know, something

(01:04:40):
along those lines to where you're studying the way some
of these formulas work, then the game will pass you
by quickly because of the fact that the brain trusts
of all these teams, as far as coaches and analytics
people go, are studying all of the things that you
should also be studying. So if you let, if you
let take technology and what these numbers and formulists can

(01:05:03):
provide for you pass you by, then you'll lose games
because people are basically using these situations to beat you.
And so you know, it's like everything with technology and
modernizing that you have to be able to adapt and adjust.
But if you go and just say, well, I want
to be a scout, you know, it's not just about

(01:05:24):
your eye and what you see as far as on
the field goes anymore, you have to be able to,
like you said, back it up with hard, cold analytical data.
And of course again you can assuage that, like I said,
but the fact that you have it to back it up,
I mean, it just enhances what you're trying to say
about someone in the positive or the negative.

Speaker 1 (01:05:47):
Well, look, I love our conversation and thank you so
much for joining us. Jeff Robinson again another historical individual
in the league and with summer sports that I think
is again an incredibly import and Cogg and our wheel
here at SUMER, like all of us are, and I'm
just again so I'm so glad to be able to
work with you. I mean, we've known each other from

(01:06:08):
AFAR for many years. We've known each other of course,
but not being able to work and talk football at
a certain level. So this has been fantastic today. Thank
you for all your insight and all you do for SUMER.

Speaker 2 (01:06:19):
Thank you for having me, and good to see you,
my friend.

Speaker 1 (01:06:22):
Thank you brother,