Scouting Linebackers w/ Fmr. Cincinnati Bengals & Oakland Raiders DC Chuck Bresnahan | Sumer Scout Deep Dive - SumerSports Show

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Okay, welcome to Sumers Sports and sumer Scout's positional deep
dive session with one of our experts, one of our
newest additions to the Sumer Scout staff, Chuck Bresnehem. Chuck,
how are you, buddy.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
See it's great to be with you. I'm doing great well.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
We've talked a lot about getting together over the last
year and beyond, about how it would be working at
Sumer Sports and sumer Scout, and how we would go
out and do unbelievable things in the football world and
help sort of transform what's going on in the league.
We know the league is moving in the direction of

(00:40):
data and how we utilize that data is very important.
But what we're doing at sumer Scout is a combination
of subjective analysis and objective analysis, right, We're pulling them
both together, which we think can be of course groundbreaking
and a game changer. Quite honestly, in football, you have

(01:00):
such an incredible background being a coach's son and a
proud coaches son. Of course those of us I have
done that as well, and it's one of those special
things when we look back on it.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Can you tell us a little bit.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
About your background in football? From like early years of
your life with it as a coaches son with your
father as a coach, and how you kind of moved
through that through your early years and into your teen years.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Sure Te, you know, just like you, when you're born
into the sport, it becomes an immediate passion and you
don't have a choice other than growing up in the sport.
And so, you know, I watched my dad move and
climb the ladder, and I was the one that got
the genetic defect that wanted to do this as a

(01:49):
living as well. And it's it's just been such a
great ride. I really consider that I've never worked a
day in my life because it's something that I love of,
something that I have a passion for. And it was
just such a great lifestyle to come up and be
able to watch him. And it was not easy. I

(02:10):
mean we've moved all over the country, you know, as
a young child, moved from Massachusetts where he was coaching
at Williams College, to New York when he went to
Columbia University, and then you pack up five years later
and you moved to Annapolis, Maryland when he coached for
the Naval Academy, and then he was blessed at that

(02:31):
time to move into the NFL, but I was already
at the Naval Academy, so it was just such a
great ride. And I think one of the highlights of
my whole upbringing was the fact that I went to
the Naval Academy. Well, my dad was coaching there, so
I got to see him on a daily basis. He
got to see me perform. He was the offensive line coach.

(02:55):
I was a linebacker, so we were going against each other.
It was just a great opportunity for three years. And
you know, those things are so priceless that you know,
you just cherish him. And as you get older and
your dad gets older, they become more and more important.
But the you know, the life of being a football

(03:15):
coach or coach's son has been nothing but spectacular for me.
And I've learned so much through the game of football
in life lessons and all that. It's just been It's
been so big in my foundation as a person. So
it's been great.

Speaker 1 (03:34):
Well, Chuck, like, I think about that and it serves
emotion and me. I mean, unfortunately I lost my father
in ninety six. He was a longtime football guy, football
coach forever you knew him. He scouted for a long
time as well, So I got the opportunity to see
both the coaching side and the scouting side player personnel evaluation,
and I realize how incredibly important that was. It wasn't

(03:55):
just as a coach. You're a coach. If you had
a nice, firm, solid as of evaluating and understanding the
talent that you were going to utilize as a coach,
that is a big, big deal. So you being around
that as a youngster, watching your dad and how he
immersed himself into coaching and an element of team building,
even though they weren't necessarily team building. They were putting

(04:18):
thoughts together and ideas together, where other kids were out
there messing around doing all who knows what kind of things.
As a coach's son, I remember it myself. I was
out doing bag drills in the back of my yard
where other kids were out doing whatever they were doing. Again,
do you have any quick experiences like that, like you
were in the office all the time these kids were

(04:38):
out shooting hoops or at the mall, and what were
you doing looking at game plans at ten, twelve, thirteen
years old.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
That's a great question, because you know, I think, and
I've got two brothers and a sister, and I literally
had a different mindset than all those guys. And so
I can remember back at Columbia going into My dad
was coaching at Columbia University, and we lived an hour

(05:07):
and a half away over on the other side of
the Hudson River in Pearl River, New York. But we
would go in when it was preseason and they had
to run off their playbooks for the players. They would
bring all the kids in and we would be running
the old mimiograph machines, cranking that thing, stacking the playbooks,

(05:29):
and it was just I mean, it was child labor,
but it was fun. I mean I totally bought into it.
It was time to spend with my dad, it was
time to get together with the other coaches families. But
it really was fun, and I started to get a
real passion for the game, a real itch to continue
in that. But your story about doing bag drills in

(05:50):
the backyard, this is funny because we had My parents
bought a lake house up in New Hampshire the year
I was born in nineteen sixty and we would go
up to that every summer. Well wherever my dad was.
We would pack up his car with weights and we
bought it, or my uncle built a bench for bench
pressing and all that. We would bring weights from his college.

(06:13):
We'd bring him up to the lake. We'd be lifting
every morning. We would be in eight miles away from
our house. There was a place called Prescott Park. My
dad would bring full gear and my brother and I
would be out there just one on one because my
brother was an offensive lineman and we'd be hitting full
speed and he'd be teaching us hand placement, leverage offensively, defensively.

(06:37):
And what's funny is him being an offensive line coach,
my brother being an offensive lineman. I was the human bag,
and so it was really fun. But that was competitive
for me, and that helped me so much early on on,
just learning about the little details that make such a
difference in the game. So yes, I think we all
have those type of stories as coaches kids or football kids.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
For those of you who are younger listening to this,
I'm gonna ask Chuck a question, were you in fact
using a suspension football helmet? Please tell me no, because
those early years we were having these rinky dink little
helmets on and we don't even need to get into
concussions here right now, but those were tough times. You
guys were competitive brothers, I'm sure. No.

Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah, we started believing or not with the suspension helmet,
and then moved to the water helmets, which weighed a ton,
and then went to the air helmets, you know, and
they got they improved, and it was pretty quick back then.
So I think we only did maybe a year, maybe
two summers with the old suspension helmets and then moved on.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
So when you think about this leading into our next
set of questions and big picture ideas, there is no
doubt in your mind that being raised in football again
humbly differentiated you from other people that were going into
the business. The reason that you ascended to where you
did in the National Football League as a defensive coordinator

(08:03):
and as one of the most respected individuals out there
over the years. You bring up Chuck Bresnahan's name to
anyone first and foremost by the way, they say, unbelievable person,
you know, trustworthy, focused, work ethic, like all the things
that you want to be proud of, especially as an Annapolis,
Maryland grad. I get that right. I think there's that's

(08:24):
an amazing thing. So being raised in a coaching family
is something that set the tone for you. Did it,
in fact, sort of pave the way for you and
your mindset and your approach moving into your professional career.

Speaker 2 (08:37):
I don't think there's any question about that. You know,
the one thing you learn from sport in general, not
just football, but I truly believe football is the ultimate sport.
But through sport in general, you learn so many things.
And you don't appreciate him when you're that young, but
as you grow you realize that those were all contributing

(08:59):
factors to how you deal with life. Lessons, how you
deal with relationships, how you deal with positive things that
you equate to winning, and how you handle adversity which
equates to losing. So all those things are instilled. Being
the son of somebody that was always involved with that.
I think that gets magnified at an exponential level. You

(09:24):
know that it really sets in. But to me, I
always go back and whenever I talk to anybody about
you know, how you progress, especially the younger kids, is
it's a cumulative effect. So when I graduated from high school,
I made a last minute decision I was going to
go play lacrosse at a college because I would get

(09:48):
a scholarship, but they would also let me play football.
At the last minute, I decided that's not really the
way I want to go, So I went to prep
school for a year and then ended up getting the
football scholarship offers and ended up going back to the
Naval Academy. But in those years up through prep school,
I was a little bit of a crazy guy, and

(10:11):
not in a bad way. I was just mischievous. I
love to, you know, always be out with my friends
and not do anything wrong, but just having fun. I
needed the discipline of the Naval Academy and I didn't
know that at the time, so I chose the Naval Academy.
And I can't tell you in the first probably year
and a half at the Naval Academy, I told my

(10:32):
mom a hundred times that I was leaving. I cooked
this is not for me, and she was the rock,
so believe it or not. Want my dad, it was
my mom that was the rock in saying, hey, you
can do this, you know, hang through it. And every
time she said that, I went a little bit further
and shoot. By midway through my sophomore year, this was

(10:55):
the best decision I ever made. And so that, combined
with just the family upbringing I had, sports, what that contributed,
you know, really just polishes you off and sets you
off in the right direction. Then it's up to you
to keep going in the right direction, steering it that way.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
I mean, those are great thoughts. And again, as you
speak about that, it just stirs so many emotions. Being
a son of a coach myself, and as you know,
there are many people in the league collegiately or professionally
that you bond with on that level. It's another part
of a conversation, right, There's something about that fraternity of
a coach's son that is just special. Again, which is

(11:35):
a very important part of you know, bringing you on
board with Suomer Sports and sumer Scout because we need
football people here along with some incredibly important and intelligent
data and systems people as we've talked about, right, So
what you bring to the table for us is a
very unique, a unique addition in a number of different ways,

(11:57):
which I'd like to talk about that for a second.
Let's talk about uniqueness. Let's talk about the ascension that
you had so your post high school. Let's just talk
I know we can't protract here, but where you where
you moved to after college and getting into the coaching ranks,
and who you dealt with along the way, some of

(12:17):
the most influential people. Again, remember we will bring that
back to the conversation. We don't know need to go
into serious detail about the coaching, but suffice it to say,
I'd love the listeners to know exactly how how you
traveled that journey to get up to the spot into
the NFL.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Sure you know, having gone to the Naval Academy, you
have an automatic job as soon as you graduate. You
have a five year commitment. And so my path of
career changed my senior year because I blew my knee
out midway through the season, and when we went through

(12:58):
the flight physical stage as a senior for the Naval Academy,
where if you wanted to fly Navy Air or Marine
Corps Air you had to pass that flight physical. I
was in a fiberglass cast and so I couldn't pass that.
So my career choice changed at that moment. I didn't
want to wait another year before I could go back

(13:21):
through the flight physical for the next class. So what
I did is I stayed at the Naval Academy for
eight months as what were they called a temporarily assigned
duty station, and I worked with the football program. Gary
Tranquell was our head coach who he had been an
assistant coach with my dad, so I had already known

(13:42):
him and then I played for him my last two
years at Navy, but he kept me on board. Well,
what was unique during that was during that season or
after that season, two coaches left and went to other schools. Well,
they were short on people recruiting, so I got a
signed to go out and recruit Central Florida for the

(14:04):
Naval Academy as a tad ensign and really had never
done that before. So that was like a high you know,
being thrown into the fire type experience, really starting out
scouting and understanding how to look at high school players
to come to the college level, and it was just

(14:24):
a great opportunity. I don't think I was very good
at it back then. I was learning on the run,
but they told me what a great job I did.
And you know, Gary, when I left and ended up
going to my first duty station, told me whenever I
get out he would have a job for me. And
it was just it was. It was just a great opportunity.

(14:47):
So anyway, I worked there as a basically a graduate
assistant for a year and then went into my military assignment,
which you know, I traveled all over the world, ended
up getting a medical discharge at the end of the
five years, and literally went right back to the Naval
Academy as a full time coach. So that experience as

(15:08):
a thad ensign in the Navy led me to the
opportunity to go right into coaching as a full time
coach and not have to do the graduate assistant you know,
getting into grad school and all that. I went right
back as a full time coach, only spent one year.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
Oh no, I was just going to say, it's a
great thought because of my thought on that is Steve Cannon,
who was the CEO of all of Arthur Blank's businesses
with the Falcons, who came on board a few years
ago prior to me leaving. There was a West Point guy,
right and he used to say to me, look, you
guys all have natural leadership ability, all you gms and

(15:46):
presidents and coordinators of the league and head coaches, but
very few of you have been trained professionally to lead.
Did the Naval Academy sort of provide some of that
professional leader ship skills skill set ability that you think
might not have been there. I know you've already kind

(16:07):
of answered that question, but it is important, as we know,
as a as a coach in the National Football League
and as a coordinator, you better be on your mark
as a leader, communicative, clear, et cetera, et cetera. Can
you speak to that very.

Speaker 2 (16:21):
Briefly, Tee. There's no doubt that it's such a resource
that you don't realize what you're getting when you're going
through it, because well, everybody else is at a regular
college going out having funder in the league. You're locked
in that place and the I guess the free time

(16:41):
gets better as you go on each year, and by
the time you're a senior, you're getting paid to go
there and you can go out and have fun and
all that stuff. But there's still not just the academia
from you know, graduating with your degree, but you have
to pass all the military courts. And that indeed was leadership.

(17:02):
And one of my leadership professors was one of the
longest POWs in the Vietnam War. And those are guys
that just make such impact on you in your life
and how you treat people and how you prepare and
it's a very very unique setup. And like I said,

(17:23):
at that point in time in my life, that is
absolutely what I needed. So you know, when I talk
about where I'm at at some point in my career,
you always have to go back and give credit to
those those areas that built you the foundation and built
you as a man. In the Naval Academy I have

(17:44):
such high regard for and it was just such a
great time in my life and I'm so blessed to
have had to have had that opportunity.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Well, I think summer sports, by the way, and specifically
Suomer Scout, which is our offering today the NFL teams
and eventually NCAA when the time is right when it
comes to Sumer Scout in the NFL, and it comes
to providing evaluations, clear cut, communicative evaluations, subjective evaluations that

(18:14):
are strongly created through all of your thought processes and
all of your experiences over the years throughout college, throughout
the NFL in different position coaching situations, as well as
I would say coordinating. I mean, that's what it makes
this special in my mind and This is my little

(18:35):
bit of a pitch for Suomer Sports. To bring someone
like you in here with all of that unbelievable background
in football and everything else that you've done, and to
communicate to our teams and to respect where we're coming
from is huge for me in my position to think
we're putting the right people out there for the NFL

(18:55):
teams to truly tap into their knowledge. It's not just
respectfully to young scouts because I was a young combined
scout at one time in my life. This is a
very different business and company. We are providing over five
hundred years of NFL slash football experience for all of
our clients that come on board. I think it's a

(19:16):
fantastic offering, and so I think about that as you
continue to talk about your ascension. I just wanted to
be able to sort of give you your props because this
is a very important hire for us to have Chuck
Bresnahan on this staff to be able to utilize not
only your coaching strong coaching background, but also your acute

(19:38):
eye per evaluating talent combined with coaching, which is different
from some of our other scouting experts on this staff
who come to the table with unbelievable positives in their
own you know, group of assets. Of course, ascension, So
from from the Naval Academy and in through the college

(19:58):
ranks before you got to the NFL, can you succinctly
move through that journey and then we'll we'll top it
off towards the beginning of your time as a defensive coordinator.

Speaker 2 (20:09):
Yes, you know, as I said, going back to the
Naval Academy as a full time coach from my first
coaching experience was a great opportunity. I only spent one
year back at Navy because Bobby Ross, who had coached
with my dad at the Kansas City Chiefs, took the
left of the University of Maryland, took the head coaching

(20:31):
position in Georgia Tech, and he hired me to come down.
So I spent five years under Coach Ross at Georgia Tech.
And again, Coach Ross was like a second father figure
to me. He was just such he is such an
incredible human being and was such an unbelievable head football coach.
And in the five years we were there, we won
a national championship tied with the University of Colorado in

(20:53):
nineteen ninety and you know, took Georgia Tech to two
consecutive Bowl games, and they had not been on a
winning program in quite a while when we went there.
That was a great opportunity.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
Did Bobby Ross? Did Bobby Ross? I have a very
quick question. Sorry to interrupt. You deal with me on this.
You can interrupt me as much as possible on this
as well. Bobby Ross, when we were at Detroit, I
was just a young flailing scout, you know, grunt at
that time at Detroit. Had a massive amount of respect
for him. We had was back in the days when
we didn't have food, right, I mean we had food,

(21:27):
but we had buildings today. He would have a huge
jar of skippy peanut butter and that's what he would eat.
And I would just marvel at him, you know, because
he was in fairly good shape and he would just
be digging into this big jar of peanut butter, and
I thought, this guy's dedicated.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
Man.

Speaker 1 (21:42):
He's not going out trying to spend an hour and
a half down the street in just outside of Pontiac
trying to find a really good Italian dish. He was
he was anchored in, was at his mode. By the way,
with Bobby Ross just through and through dedicated football man.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Absolutely, But like I said, you know, for a lot
of us at Georgia Tech, we had a couple veteran
coaches in Georgia O'Leary and Ralph Frigent, but the rest
of the staff, I mean a lot of the staff
was younger coaches, and he was. When I say he
was a second father figure for me, I really mean that.

(22:17):
I mean that's the way he treated you. He treated
you like a son. He was fair with you, demanding,
but he always wanted to teach, you know, he wanted
to give you something each and every day that you
really kept throughout your entire career, and whether you stayed
in sport, stayed in football, or moved on to something else,

(22:39):
those were things you could carry with you. And those
were just I mean, there were great experiences and it
was a great opportunity to spend five years with him.

Speaker 1 (22:47):
So you go from him, you're moving through what's your
next step along the way.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
I left Georgia Tech, and again this kind of shows
you how growing up in the sport helps because I
left there and got my first coordinators position at the
University of Maine with Kirk Farrens and Kirk is a
longtime family friend because he being an offensive line coach
and my dad being kind of a mentor for him

(23:13):
early on, we had a great relationship. So he hired
me up at the University of Maine and I went
up there for my first coordinator's position. And again, you
change level. You just went from winning a national championship
and now you're going up to a school I say
this sarcastically in the middle of nowhere in orn O,
Maine and you're in the Yankee Conference. But it didn't

(23:38):
matter to me. Football is football. You had to roll
up your sleeves there and really get into coaching recruiting
because to get athletes to come up that far, I
mean it's four hours north of Boston. I mean, you're
getting forty eight inch snowstorms two or three times a year.
You have to be able to sell a product. So

(24:01):
that was a very unique experience.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Great, I mean, that's a great thought. Let's backtack for
half a second. Kirk Farins, of course, the legendary coach
for the University of Iowa beyond Hayden fry Right, Hayden
was only their twenty years I think Kirk's been there
twenty five maybe, yes, yes, I mean it's unbelievable. What
was the main takeaway from like leadership and football knowledge

(24:23):
from Kirk Farns.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Kirk was different than Bobby Ross, Kirk was different than
Gary Tranquill. Kirk was different than George Welsh, who was
my first coach at Navy. Whereas Kirk was younger, he
was more relaxed in the way he went. But my god,

(24:46):
was he detailed in what he did. But you know,
we would have staff meetings at his house on his
back porch, you know, and he kept things very light.
But I mean, what a teacher, What an incredible compassionate
human being he was to his staff as well as
the entire roster on the team. He was just he

(25:10):
was a He was a unique leader at that point
in time in my life, and it was really really
interesting to see the different ways you can be successful.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Well, I mean Kirk, I mean my own personal experience
with Kirk. Just to chime in, I mean when my
dad spent many many years again with the Browns, Kirk
Farns was there at the Browns with him during that time,
and my dad got you know, he got ill of course,
and as I mentioned before, he passed away in ninety six,
but you could just see the quality of person that
Kirk was during my dad's illness being you know, on this,

(25:43):
my dad was on the scouting side. He and Kirk
got along really well because my dad was at the
core a very hard nosed old school Miami of Ohio
football coach, and he and Kirk, though ages different, had
an unbelievable relationship. I have nothing but a huge, huge
lott it's for someone like Kirk because he's just such
a soulful person and a good person. He'll always be

(26:06):
there for you on top of being a fantastic coach.
I just wanted to chime in on that because again,
every time you talk about this and I get together
again with coach's sons, I get a little bit of
emotion going here because I think about it, special people,
special impact on our lives from Kirk from Maine. Next
steps for you, Well.

Speaker 2 (26:26):
It's funny because it ties in with what you just
talked about because Kirk left after my first year with
him and went to the Cleveland Browns with Bill Belichick
as the offensive line coach. I stayed at the University
of Maine. I was one of the two finalists for
the head job. One of the alumni that was on
the staff got the job, Jack Cosgrove. I stayed for

(26:50):
one more season with Jack as the defensive coordinator, and
you talk about a small world in coaching. The very
next year, I get the call for Bill Belichick, would
you like to join my staff in Cleveland? And I
really going back and we kind of skipped over this
at the Naval Academy, but I played for Bill's dad,

(27:13):
Steve Belichick. He was an assistant coach and a physical
ed director at the Naval Academy. And I also knew
the Belichicks through my dad's full time at the Naval Academy.
So I've known him since I was thirteen years old,
and so there was the one connection. But I really
believe Kirk was the was that final nail that really

(27:34):
sealed the job for me because he had just hired me.
We had just done a great job the year before
working together, and I think that was that really helped
me solidify that job. And what a great step that
was because you're going from a coordinator in college back
to really the lowest level on defense as an assistant

(27:58):
linebacker coach for what he wouldenhoff. But I now got
the opportunity to work with some of the greats in
the game, with Bill Belichick as the head coach, Nick
Saban as the defensive coordinator. You know, we had Rick
Venturrey as our secondary coach, Woody Wooden Offer as our
defense or Jimmy a linebacker coach. Jim Bates is our

(28:19):
defensive line coach. It was just such a great opportunity,
and that doesn't even speak for the special teams and offense.
It was just it was an eye opening experience and
a great opportunity and to lead in That's where I
got to meet your family because I got to work
with your dad for two years prior to his passing
and can speak from the same viewpoint as Kirk where

(28:42):
he was a tremendous asset and more importantly, just a
superhuman being.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
I appreciate you sharing that. Very nice of you, Chuck.
You had the unbelievable opportunity to move from the college
ranks to go to Cleveland, as we just mentioned, and
be a part of Bill Belichick and the Bill Belichick approach.
Belichick's approach to scouting, I think was second to none.
Although he was a fairly young head coach, he had
a very strong understanding of how to go about team

(29:10):
building and scouting because of his dad's interest in building
teams and scouting and recruiting at the Naval Academy. Bill
seemed as though, in my six years together at New
England that he would be very mindful of who he
had involved in the scouting process. Even if you were
a high ranking coach and he determined that maybe your

(29:33):
eye wasn't as good as it needed to be, he
might not utilize your efforts as much as those who
were really focused and really communicative and really adept at evaluating.
I'm sure you agree with that approach. If you were involved.
You were involved because he saw promise in your ability
to evaluate talent.

Speaker 2 (29:53):
Oh, there's no doubt, And I think you know you
can go back and again, I'm not speaking for Bill
by any stretch of the imagination. But where did Bill
get his roots through his dad? Where was his dad
working at the Naval Academy. He would sit, he would
watch film with his dad. He was going through everything.

(30:15):
But the one thing I guarantee you from Steve Belichick,
Steve Belichick was detail orientated, he researched everything, and then
when getting the opportunity to go with Bill and Cleveland man,
everything there was exactly which you would expect from somebody
that has even though he wasn't in the military, he

(30:36):
has a military upbringing, and then the football upbringing on
top of that, the attention to detail, the research, the
holding people accountable. There's so many things there that you know,
people look at. Some people, I should say, may say
that Bill's time in Cleveland wasn't a positive ex experience

(31:00):
because of just the way it ended. I totally disagree
with that. I think Bill developed himself into what he
proved he was in New England for twenty plus years.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
It's a great point. I love your commentary on that one.
It just set up what you know, allowed him to
become one of the very best, arguably the best along
with Paul Brown and Vince Lombardi in the NFL history
of coaching. I think it's an unbelievable story. Let's go
from Cleveland and your time at Cleveland again. We could

(31:35):
talk about it forever. Next steps on from Cleveland were
where for you?

Speaker 2 (31:41):
Well, when I left Cleveland, I ended up going to
the Indianapolis Colts and at that point in time, Lindy
and Fante was the head coach. But the connection I
had was through their defensive coordinator was Jim Johnson, and
rest his soul. But Jim had coached with my dad
at the Saint Louis Cardinals and then had moved to

(32:05):
of course Phoenix when they made the move to Phoenix,
and so they had been together. And then Jim ended
up in Indianapolis with Lindy, so he hired me to
be the linebacker coach in Indianapolis. And again, now that
was the real mentor for those two years, was Jim Johnson,

(32:25):
and those were some of the most formidable years for
me in growing as a defensive football coach. And we
didn't do as much scouting at the Indianapolis coach you know,
where some teams you do a lot of scouting as
a coach, some you don't. We had input, but it
was not as much as the other teams that I

(32:46):
had been involved with and would be involved with in
the future. So that was more of a coaching experience
than it was a dual role. But you know, to
learn from Jim, and that's another guy that you know,
I hold right up there with the Al davis Is
and the Bill Belichicks and the Bobby Rosses for having
an impact on me as a man, and so it's

(33:09):
just such a great opportunity to have that. But I
spent two years in Indianapolis as the linebacker.

Speaker 1 (33:15):
Coach, and Chuck, if you could comment on this, you
just you just alluded to this fact. Organizations are different
out there. For everyone who are are listening to this,
They're very different, right, Some our coaching staffs are very
involved in the evaluation process and others they're not. It
just it really depends on the agreement between the head
coach and the general manager and how they want to

(33:36):
approach the team building element of it all. So again,
you go from a situation in Cleveland where the coaches
were very involved Indianapolis not as much at that time.
Who was your who is your general manager? In Indy?

Speaker 2 (33:49):
Bill Tobin was the general manager and there was a
great relationship spent Bill Tobin and because uh Jim Johnson
had worked with Bill's brother Vince, so there was a
a familiar connection there for those guys. But again, it
just wasn't to the same level that I experienced at
my other jobs.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Would you say during that time. However, because of your
growing through you know Kirk as well as Bill Belichick
at Cleveland and the idea of scouting, you're doing your
own scouting on the side, even if you're not necessarily
submitting those reports. That is part of your makeup, right.
It's one of the reasons that you became a special
coach to be able to say to people, and people

(34:31):
know Chuck Residan as a guy who is not only
a very adept coach, but an evaluator. Is that something
that you always honed even when you weren't involved in
the scouting process as much.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
It's funny. I took great pride in it. And again
when I did evaluations on college prospects or free agents.
This is funny because I fell back on the evaluation
process that I had to go through as an officer
in the name for all the people underneath me. And
in my first duty station, real duty station in Adak, Alaska,

(35:07):
I had over two hundred and fifty people working for me,
between civilian employees and military. But for the military people,
I had to write up evaluations twice a year on them,
and that was a very detail. It took great pride
in that because I didn't want to hurt somebody by
not writing a good evaluation, and I didn't want to

(35:28):
hurt myself by not knowing how to write a bad evaluation.
And so when I started doing this in college, when
we recruiting high school players as well as would Bill,
because Bill was so detailed, man, I fell back on
exactly what I did as a military officer in really
making sure I had every aspect of that person, positive

(35:51):
and negative, and then come to your conclusion on hey,
we want this guy, we don't want this guy. And
so that carried over and at each place it was
a little bit different, but as we progress, it's interesting
how that came up at almost every job that I had.
When I wrote my.

Speaker 1 (36:09):
Evows from Indianapolis, you went where Indianapolis, Lindy got fired
in nineteen ninety eight and I got a call pretty
much out of the clear blue from John Gruden.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
And John and I had known each other again. John
is the son of a football guy in Jim Gruden,
but he gave me a buzz and we used to
meet during off season at the Combine and all that
and just talk, and we kind of had a joke
that if I got a head job, I'd hire him.
If he got a head job, he'd hire me. Sitting

(36:42):
in Indianapolis at the Combine. Well, it happened in ninety eight,
and I got blessed that John called me and I
went out to Oakland. And it was funny because I
had never met mister Davis prior to that, and all
you heard was from in coaching ranks was horror stories
about coaching in Oakland, that mister Davis was very hands

(37:03):
on this and that. So to me, I looked at
it as almost a nine month vacation in California and
then I would see what the next job available was. Man,
I got out there and I never wanted to leave.
The man was such a resource. And to work for
John and his initial staff out there was I mean,

(37:25):
it was. It was just unbelievable. I really enjoyed it.
But I got that opportunity, went out as the secondary coach.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
As a secondary coach. Okay, little aside, My first dealing
in my first year, my first trade ever in my
life as a as a neophyte general manager was with
Al Davis. So Al Davis, it was about D'Angelo Hall.
You remember D'Angelo. He was a corner for us, a
really good corner, but we just didn't hit it off
from the very beginning. He and I are great, you know,

(37:53):
we're fine out D'Angelo and I. But I remember when
I called up Al and Al's you know, I'm thinking,
oh my god, I got to do a deal with
the legendary Al Davis. I'm a neophyte, you know, just
just making my way through here as my first maybe
even month on the job. He gets on the phone
and he couldn't have been nicer. He was really he
was really good about everything. We decided on a second

(38:15):
round deal. It was a big It was a big
deal for us. My first trade basically was the second
round deal for D'Angelo Hall. He's going to go to
Oakland and then, you know, we were all set to
start building, right. So a matter of two weeks later,
he calls me up. He's like, you son of a bitch,
I want my pick back. I'm like, and then he stopped,

(38:35):
and then there was a little bit of an uncomfortable moment.
He's like, I'm just screwing with your kid. And we
had a nice conversation. He said, look, you know, D'Angelo
is a special person. And hopefully this works out, but
it's got its ups and downs already. As you know,
DiAngelo ended up being there, I think for six games
and then he moved up to Washington at that point.
But the Al Davis stuff icons like that in the NFL,

(38:57):
whether you're you're involved with him at whatever level, could
be reading about him. And that's what I did. And
my interaction was a little bit through my dad, of course,
because my dad and Al knew each other a little bit.
But unlike you, I was not in in the middle
of it all. Can you expound a little bit more
on the salient points of leadership and or growth that

(39:17):
you learned from Al Davis prior to going on to
our next our next stage here?

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Uh, It's that could be an entire podcast in itself
to you know. The man knows new more football and
still does than any person possible. And every day was
such a learning experience there. And like I said, I
went out in ninety eight as the secondary coach and

(39:44):
Willie Shaw was our defensive coordinator. And the one thing,
you know, what made it so special though I can't
you know, mister Davis was truly unique and we had
what I call a love hate relationship just because my
position when I became the defensive coordinator. But John did

(40:06):
such an amazing job of putting a staff together when
he first got the job, because the number one thing
he really looked for, excuse me, in a coaching staff
was football people that were born into football family, people
that were born into the business. So we had Skip Pete,

(40:27):
we had Frank Gantz Junior, we had myself, We had
Willie Shaw and David Shaw. You know, everybody that we
had on that staff had some sort of upbringing or
a majority did upbringing in football. So they knew what
they were getting into because Oakland, truly it was the
Oakland Raiders back then, was truly a unique situation where

(40:50):
you knew you were going to be grinding, similar to
what I got myself into when I went with Bill
in Cleveland. You knew you were going to grind there.
But I always look that that is a positive, not
a negative. And so when we got in there, there
was such a great setup in chemistry and people knew
what was going on. And then two years later in

(41:12):
two thousand, when I got promoted to defensive coordinator, I
had no idea how that would change my relationship with
mister Davis, and to be honest with you, it was
like life in general. There were positives to it, there
were negatives to it. You had to be willing to
get calls at two in the morning from the man
and you had to be willing to just have the

(41:34):
ultimate resource of football at your fingertips. So the relationship grew,
and the one thing that again I really fell back on,
was how you treated your seniors in the military, because
you may not agree with somebody that was your boss,

(41:56):
but he had a higher rank than you, and you
had to not always do what he said to do,
but you had to treat those people with respect. And
that's how I handled mister Davis as far as me
trying to survive as a first time coordinator in the NFL,
and I used him as a resource and I treated

(42:17):
him with the utmost respect. Our relationship grew. We used
to have our Thursday night meetings. He would come over
and he would pull me out of the defensive staff
room and we'd go in my office and we would
sit and talk, and probably seventy five percent of the
time it had nothing to do with the game at hand.

(42:38):
It had nothing to do with maybe even football. It
was life. And he would share things about growing through
the league and stories about how he gained ownership of
the Raiders and became who he was, you know in football,
and they were how do you not just sit and

(42:58):
your jaws and you just take it all in? And
so he was not, say a student of wartime strategy
or all that, but he was a he was a
the ultimate student of football strategy, an ultimate student of
just the progress of football through the years. And that

(43:21):
was really interesting.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
So per scouting and the specifics and nuances of nuances
of the Raiders system before we move on, the takeaway
on that was and we hear people talking he was
about big and fast receivers. I mean we all know
that story. Is there anything else or maybe that's something
that you would clear up. I mean, what was his

(43:45):
overview on evaluating and acquiring players, be it draft or
free agency?

Speaker 2 (43:51):
There was always an emphasis at the Raiders height, waight speed.
That was it. I mean, you knew hight Wight speed,
and to be a very honest with you, speed probably
should have been listed one because that was so important
for mister Davis. But the one thing again that I
learned throughout the years is that heightweight speed was his

(44:15):
number one priority. But you could sell him that there
may be the best height weight speed guy out there.
But when you put the pads on and you put
the football tape on, wasn't a football player. But you
actually had to show him that on tape, and you
did it in a respectful, very detailed, well thought out plan,

(44:37):
just like you prepare a podcast or whatever. You had
to prepare a tape that showed some good, showed some okay,
and then you finished with something that stuck in his mind.
Because if you showed him the good early, you confirmed
with him heightweight speed is important. When you showed him

(44:58):
just be an average, you could say the heightweight speed
was negated. When you showed him a group of negatives,
you solidified in his mind, heightweight speed can get you
in real trouble if you're not doing things right, or
you don't know what you're doing and you're an underachiever,
you're whatever it may become. He listened to that. So

(45:19):
the heightweight speed was his mantra. But he wanted football
players and you could sell them on the football player.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
So I think about this when you're talking about iconic
head coaches. Right, you're talking about Bill Belichick, you're talking
about talking about Al Davis and a guy who's been
around it even though he was the owner, but at
one time he was a coach. Right, you're talking about
Don Shuley, You're talking about Jimmy Johnson in Dallas and beyond.
There's so many coaches like that. Again, for everyone who

(45:49):
is listening on this, one of the takeaways with that
is those iconic coaches, those top notch head coaches in
the league, they took it seriously as far as evaluation
and what they were hearing from the scouts and or
the coaches reporting on the players. You couldn't get by
and very quickly it was evident if you were a

(46:11):
BS guy, right, if you didn't do your work and
you were just calling around, you could quickly get that
reputation in the league for not being a guy that
worked at it, And those head coaches could see through
that and they would call you out on it. Right,
if that ever happened, go back to the drawing board.
I want to know more. I remember when Bill Belichick
called me out on a couple of players when I
first got to New England. Scott Pioli was basically our

(46:33):
general manager there, ahead of all personnel, and Scott whispers
to me before Bill comes in, and he's like, hey,
by the way, you're going to be evaluating safeties and
I'm like, oh, you got to be kidding me. That's
Bill's position. So I get up there and I start
commenting on who was a great player for him at
one time. But I started having to comment on Lawyer

(46:53):
molloy and I'm thinking overthinking, oh my gosh, does he
like him, which was a complete diversion to who I
was as a scout. I never worried about that. This
is what it is. It's what I always took a
lot of pride in. But I'm up there the first
time talking about safeties and talking about what I thought
was one of his stud acquisitions. So I'm kind of

(47:16):
riding the fence a little bit, admittedly, and he kind
of listens, you can tell, and then he pulls back
and he said, Thomas, I mean it's time, and basically
went on a little bit of a diet trip about
what Lawyer was at one time and what he is now,
and I just kind of sunk into my seat and
I thought, that's a tough lead in in my job,

(47:39):
my job journey with Bill Belichick as a you know what,
became a college director job there. My point is, all
of those head coaches like that and owners like Al Davis,
they hold you to the fire and you can't be
a BS guy in this league in my mind around
the really solid sound football people. I just thought i'd
comment on.

Speaker 2 (47:59):
That, and that's absolutely true to you. You know, the
one thing that was unique, and again I give a
lot of credit to John Gruden and Willie Shaw when
I got hired, was the one thing you knew with
mister Davis as a coach slash scout because that's what
you were. You had to know not just your position.

(48:22):
Like I said, I went in as the secondary coach
for the Raiders on John's first staff, but they told me,
you better know every personnel on offense in the AFC
West on all the other teams, because he's gonna fly around.
He's gonna ask you questions about how your players match

(48:43):
up or who does this receiver remind you of on
our team, and so you had to know the entire
Raider roster. You had to know, like I said, the
other teams in the division when I went out there,
and sure as heck, when I first met with mister
Davis and it was actually in Indianapolis Combine prior to
getting hired. That was he would ask you football questions.

(49:05):
He'd have you draw diagrams on a napkin of all things.
You would draw up defenses that he wanted to talk about.
You'd be just taught, and then all of a sudden
he'd throw out a question of you know, uh, how
do you how do you see handling Tony Gonzales? And
so you had to have it or what other tight
ends have you gone against that are similar to Tony

(49:27):
that are dominant like that? And so you had to
have an answer. You had to be prepared, and yet
you had to be yourself because the most important I
guess tip that John and Willie said, if you don't know,
say you don't know, because if you try to bs him,
he's gonna He's not only gonna know it. He asks
every question he asks, he knows the answer and he

(49:50):
is going to call you on it. And so just
being yourself, and I think that's who I was always
raised to be. Kind of what you were saying, as
a scout, you neverried about what somebody else was thinking.
You were calling it the way you see it, and
so I just held to my guns on that. And
like I said, we had ups and downs, just like
a family relationship. But I learned so much from him

(50:14):
and then John. You know, you would sit in our
draft meetings and you could not sleep through watching the receivers,
or watching the quarterbacks or the running backs, or the
offensive line, especially as a coordinator when I became the
defensive coordinator, because in the middle of any of that,
Al would ask you how our guys match up? Or

(50:35):
who does this guy remind you of? In our defense.
You know, you just had to be prepared, so you
were always on your toes. But I think that made
you better in all phases of life, including football. Made
me better as a coordinator.

Speaker 1 (50:50):
So I mean, that is a great point we talk
often in scouting, and we talk about it all the
time here in our assumer scouting platform with the guys
with all the experience. It is a out comparatives. Right
when I went to work again back for Bill and
or or those head coaches that had a really strong
grasp of evaluating it was about the comparatives to your
team you needed to start off. Anyone needs to start

(51:13):
off knowing the team they're working for. You need to
know that team talent inside and out before you go
out and try to replace those players or evaluate whether
that player is better or worse than the player at
any position. So comparatives are massively important. I take it
in what you said about al Davis like that was
vital there, not only as a position coach. You became

(51:35):
the decordinator there when in two thousand, In two thousand,
after how many years being there?

Speaker 2 (51:41):
I was the secondary coach for the first two ninety eight, ninety.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
Nine, okay, and then you became the decordinator year for
how many years were you the de coordinator at Oakland?

Speaker 2 (51:49):
I was there for another five years.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Five years, okay, So you go through all of that.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
I was there two stints, Thomas, not interrupt you. So
that was the first stint. Then I went back there
in twenty.

Speaker 1 (51:59):
Eleven, two thousand and eleven. In between that stint was
that Cincinnati, No, that was that.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
Was Cincinnati, And that was also three years in the
or two years in the United Football League, so it
was two years out of the NFL.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
Cincinnati. You worked for Marvin is that correct? Yes, So
marvel lewis as a head coach there you were there
for how many years? Five five? So you're there for
five not to breathe through that. Is there anything you
want to share about Marvin and the Bengals time? Was?
Was that a growth period for you? Anything new as
as per evaluation pulling it all together in football at

(52:35):
that time?

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Absolutely? I mean that that may be the most influential
stint as far as the scouting process goes to because
in Cincinnati at that time, we were the scouts and
so we were out all the time going to Pro
days doing you know one, you know, our own individual

(52:59):
valueas on players. The off season was a challenge and
I went as like the assistant to Marvin the first year,
so I was not per se on the defense. I
was just kind of an assistant to the head coach
and Leslie Fraser was the defensive coordinator. After one year there,

(53:20):
Leslie left and I became the defensive coordinator for Marvin.
Once that happened, man, I was so blessed to have
had the experience with Al for all those years prior
to because we literally became the scouts. Like I said,
as a coordinator. I didn't have a position. I had

(53:42):
to go to all the top players, and so we
were out on the road constantly during the offseason, during
the scouting season, the final scouting season, and that was
a challenge because you still had to get your football
work done. So I had to do my end of
year evaluations. I had to do our player evaluations. I
had to do our scheme evaluations. And so there were

(54:05):
times where I would be in the office and your
staff would be out on the road. But then when
you would have to go out on the road and
meet your staff to see these top players or somebody
that Marvin wanted to see, it was it was a challenge.
But again I fell back on the I guess, the
attention to detail and the overall studying that Al made

(54:27):
us do, as well as the Naval Academy organizational skills
and discipline and just setting up the way to time
manage all that. You know, again, you just fall back
on everything that's building you as a person and a
foundation as a coach. Everything that I had gone through
in my career kind of led up to being able

(54:48):
to handle that and not let it affect me and
put out poor performance.

Speaker 1 (54:54):
I mean I think about that. You're exactly right. You
go into Cincinnati and you have let's just say you
were a part of those organization that the coaches had
very little to do with evaluation and didn't work on
it and didn't work on that part of their craft.
That would have been a pretty menacing responsibility to go
out there be insecure about your scouting ability if you
didn't have the background as a coach. I just I

(55:16):
think there's a reason right all of our journeys not
to get philosophical here, but we all can look at
our journeys and think, oh, it was exactly what it
was supposed to be. Yes, you end up at Cincinnati,
you know, digging in, spending a lot of time there
being a really important part of that scouting staff because
coaches were. And then you take that and from that

(55:37):
point after Cincinnati you go back, is that correct? Back
to Oakland?

Speaker 2 (55:43):
No, I will I was out of the NFL for
the two years, two years and worked with Jim Haslett
and then Jay Gruden with the Florida Tuskers out of Orlando,
but then went back to Oakland after that.

Speaker 1 (55:58):
After that, and so what I mean there's I mean,
your travels and your experiences again back to evaluating and
learning all of those years how to evaluate again leads
us to the opportunity to think about some of the
most solid evaluating coaches out there in the NFL. And
there are some great coaches who are really good evaluators,

(56:21):
and there are other coaches, as you know, this is
no dig on them, just like there are other coaches
who could look at personnel men who don't have a
real grasp of football as far as whatever maybe a scheme, etc.
You come to the table with a lot of that,
you know, that full package element, which is again a
really important part of bringing you on board here to consumer.

(56:42):
What I would like to do now is talk about
the position that we are going to have you focus on.
And you'll be focused on everyone, of course, but let's
talk about the linebacker position. Let's talk about let's talk
about evaluating linebackers specifically. I think it's important that we
maybe edify the listeners on your perception of that. And

(57:03):
it's what a lot of us in personnel and general
managers and player personnel directors and scouts look at as
a position that is a vital and vitally important position
for the defense, Chuck, But not always that easy to
evaluate because there are so many nuances and at times
you could be looking at evaluating a linebacker. And back

(57:26):
to what I was saying before, it's really important to
set up your list and your comparatives, right, Chuck, Like
I want to take thirty of my linebackers I'm looking
for in the NCAA. As a linebacker evaluator, there's a
lot of blending of those guys, right those ten, twelve, number, thirteen, fifteen, seventeen, eighteen.
Trying to dig in on the nuances of those linebackers

(57:46):
is not always that easy because they're so close at times.
So let's talk first about linebackers. Is that a passionate
position for you to evaluate.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Absolutely, And to be very honest with you, Tea, just
evaluating players in any position, because I've coached every position
on defense is a passion But it's more about just
being a football player and trying to find those guys
that truly have something special. You know, that have that
that that football instinct, that have that attitude that you

(58:22):
need to be a successful football player, and the leadership
of the leadership ability as well, and it can be
a quiet leader it can be a vocal leader, it
can be a leader by example. However, that is those
things are that's some of the most incredible challenges you
have as a scout primarily but as a coach trying

(58:42):
to tie in and if you're if you're assisting a
scout in giving your evaluation part or input, or you're
working as both. I think that that's just an incredible challenge.
And it's it's fun. I mean, it's it is a passion.

Speaker 1 (58:56):
What are the two or three most important traits? We
call them metrics consumer sports. Right, let's call them position specifics. Right,
we got to be in vogue with that, the three
two three most important specifics in your mind evaluating Let's
just take specifically an inside linebacker. What would they be in.

Speaker 2 (59:18):
Your mind to me? And again I want to make
a point of how from a coaching standpoint, I learned
how to look at it. And a trait is a
skill set. And in order to be a productive inside linebacker,
you have to be able to play with leverage. You
have to play with the ability to bend because you

(59:38):
have to get pad under pad because you're going up
against at times a lot of times offensive linemen who
are bigger, stronger than you are, so you have to
be able to play with leverage, and then explosion. An
explosion is to create the separation in order to defeat
the block and continue to make a play. If you
just do your job, if you you have and for

(01:00:01):
the listeners, just again the B gap. You step up
and hit that offensive guard with proper leverage. But you
don't get separation, you haven't done your job because you
may not have made the A gap smaller. You may
not have done things that from a coaching standpoint, are critical.
So you have to be able to play with leverage.

(01:00:23):
You have to be able to play with explosion. And
then one of the ones that I think is most underrated,
and as a coach always used the term great motor,
but that relentless effort, that passion to finish every play,
whether it's sidelined to sideline, an internal run where you
just gotta be tough as nails. Those are things that

(01:00:45):
are so important. And then when you start to talk
that's just three times our team you have to play
with technique, So then you start to look at the
fine details of those trades. Hand placement. You know, if
you're wide handed, you don't have any leverage. If you're
tight hands and you can get that punch, or if

(01:01:08):
you know you're in a situation and it's an outside
play to get that bend and dip and rip through
the block. Those are things you just have to get
a feel for and understand what you're looking for. There.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
There is a change, and we've seen the evolution of
some of those inside linebackers, right. I know in Atlanta,
you know, we had guys like Deon Jones at times
and I love Dion at times. Dion got down to
two hundred and eight pounds, unbelievable for some of us
with a little bit more old school inside linebacker views
right where you're thinking forty five fifty or beyond studs

(01:01:43):
that are going to take on rock that you know,
rock the blocker, discard, scrape along, like you said, make
plays having acute awareness of where we're going talking about.
You know, let's talk about awareness and the mental side
in a minute, because that was such an important part
of Bill Belichick's defense. Right, you better be a smart
football player, not not academia smart. You better be a

(01:02:05):
smart football player whi which we can talk about in
a minute. But the idea that in today's world there
are some more lighter in the ass linebackers who can
run with people because they have to team up with
some of the whether it's tight ends or running backs,
we have to get. We have to think about coverage
because of all the time spent in sub right, can
you talk a little bit about that and how that's

(01:02:27):
changed without going into a ton of detail on it.
Because the old school inside backer is a little different
than some of the younger.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Guys, there's no doubt. And again I think that's why
as a scout you have to know what the scheme
is your football staff is working with. As a coach,
you have to understand the talent that you have. So
there's a there's a gray line there, you know some greatness.

(01:02:55):
It's not just a black and white. So as a coach,
I always believed as a coordinator, I coordinated to my talent.
I always wanted to maximize my talent, even if that
put the onus on me of adjusting a little bit.
But you also wanted to communicate with your scouting staff, Hey,

(01:03:17):
this is what we really want to do. Let's get
players that fit this. And in today's world, you have
to change a little bit. It's not just the ground
pound old school. When we came into the league, twenty
one personnel running the isolation downhill at you. That's not
football anymore. You have to get guys that can play

(01:03:38):
three downs against multiple personnel sets, that can play sideline
to sideline. So all those little things are very very important.
I think you have to time together when you start
talking about the mentality of a linebacker. I have kind
of things that I think of that are traits, but

(01:03:59):
also qualities that really don't fall under the trait landmark.
But you know, being relentless, being tough, being nasty, being smart,
high football IQ. Your inside linebackers are normally your quarterback
of the front seven. Then you have a safety that
sees the whole field behind you, that makes your coverage adjustments.

(01:04:23):
That linebacker has to be able to tie the two together.
And it may not be a specific guy, maybe one
or two, but they have to have some football IQ.
Do all your linebackers have to have that, No, but
they have to be instinctful. They have to be able
to read and react very quickly to blocking schemes, protection schemes,

(01:04:45):
if they're in a pressure route, combinations they have to
understand things. So you have to be able to kind
of feel that out on film. And so it's today's
linebacker has changed. They can be smaller, they can be quicker,
but you have to do things to keep them on
the run where they're not going downhill. And that's the
job of the coordinator that gets into the football schematics.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
The football schematics which is vital. Again, you could have
that really athletic, agile linebacker who's special to cut in coverage. Right,
we haven't even talked a ton about pass coverage. Yes,
we could go into massive detail about that. It's really
really important. Back to scheme and putting the guy, that
linebacker in the right spot. If you have a two
hundred and twenty pounder two hundred and twenty five pounder

(01:05:29):
inside versus a forty five or fifty five pounder, there's
a difference there. As you know, we've talked about it already.
With that, i'd like you to comment on where do
you draw the line personally, knowing that athleticism is very important,
fluidity is very important, right, I'm a big believer in
reactionary athleticism as a defensive player. Scott Pioli and I

(01:05:53):
talked about that ad nauseum with Bill Belichick. Whine we're
in New England. We took it over to Atlanta. All
the people that were ever a part of whatever we
did who went on to other teams, you know, Matt
Russell who goes to Denver back in the day, and
Dave Calwell and less need we all understand the idea
of reactionary athleticism for that linebacker the epitome of it, right,

(01:06:13):
They're not always pretty doing it. You get the really
pretty athlete, I say, the fluid athlete. It's magical to see.
Sometimes you get someone, however, who is not as fluid
and agile, but they just get things done. They may
have a little bit of a hitch in their step.
And now I'm being a little sarcastic, but the reality
is they may not look to the eye like they're

(01:06:34):
as smooth and fluid and you know, athletically explosive, but
they get the job done. What is your take on that?
Will you take the athletic guy any day over the
guy who's not, you know, more productive, or how do
you differentiate?

Speaker 2 (01:06:49):
For me? And I think the blessing of having a
coaching and a little bit of scouting in your background.
I think you could have to combine both and you
can look and it goes back to what you asked
me about, mister Davis. You can find the best looking, height,
weight speed player, but if you put on his tape

(01:07:09):
and he just can't play the game, you got a problem. Likewise,
if you get a guy that may not have all
the heightweight speed, but he has other redeeming qualities where
you put on the tape and he's always around the football,
then I'm gonna take the best football player over the

(01:07:30):
best heightweight speed player, because the bottom line in football
is production, and so that has to be tied into
the evaluation process at some point, and you'll get a
feel for people. But there's people we've taken, I've been
involved with taking chances on that were just I mean,

(01:07:51):
we had a kid, Sammy Burrows at Indianapolis and free agent,
but this kid was like a water bug. He moved
so quick and had a burst like I've never seen it. Linebacker.
We used to joke, and this was Jim Johnson, who's
an established veteran coach. I was still pretty young in

(01:08:13):
the NFL, but I had had ten years or so
under my belt coaching wise, but we would laugh and
we would say we would almost like to see him
be wrong in his read because when he stuck a
foot and turned and went and in the opposite direction
to make the play, it was like everybody else on
the film was in slow motion and you superimposed him

(01:08:34):
in and all of a sudden he'd flash across the screen.
He'd be in on the play. So there are always
going to be those guys that don't meet the criteria.
From the other perspective, I had a starting Mike linebacker
forming in Oakland for all those years, and we went
to you know, we won the AFC West four straight years.
We went to the AFC Championship twice, the Super Bowl

(01:08:56):
once the year after he left. Unfortunately, but Greg Beekert
from you Versy at Colorado. Greg was not gonna blow
anybody away with his height, weight, speed profile. Now he
was a true old school Mike linebacker, but t he
was brilliant football iqise. He was brilliant as a leader.

(01:09:22):
He was a former wrestler, which you know, you start
looking at linebackers, you start researching other things. One of
the big things is a ton of your great linebackers
were former wrestlers, and so this kid did things and
was able to play sideline to sideline and be a
tremendous leader and a tremendous football player. Yet if you

(01:09:46):
looked at just his statistics, you wouldn't say this is
a kid you go jumping up on the table for
as your Mike linebacker. But he he I mean, he
couldn't get beat I mean, he wasn't beat out in
the four years that he was there with me, and
he was a tremendous asset to our team. So you
have to be willing to look at I guess, just

(01:10:07):
some of the other things they bring to the table,
redeeming qualities and make the best decision on a football player,
not just an athlete, because there's a difference.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
You mentioned a little bit earlier, as we're talking about linebackers,
and I believe in this one. When you're building your defense,
you want to make sure, at least in my opinion,
that you have a leader on the d line, a
leader in the middle of the defense in your linebacker group,
and a leader in the secondary. However, the leader in
the middle of the defense is always something that I want.

(01:10:40):
Of course, you could have a badass safety, but loving
that guy in the middle who just had command. The
guys that we grew up watching all of our lives,
and some of the younger listeners here. You know, you
look at some of those names out there, and some
of you you can run the gauntlet of all the
great linebackers. Most of them had a leadership ability about

(01:11:02):
them that stood out in different ways. They weren't all
the same. Some were outspoken, some weren't. Some of them
had a great feel. You look at guys like I mean,
look I look at at Teddy Bruski in New England
right over those years. I look at some of the
guys that were at the Browns back in the days,
who were you know, the Clay Matthews of the world
right who just had presence about them. Then you look

(01:11:24):
at some of the athletes over the years who you know,
we hit on. Sometimes these linebackers are in their first
NFL team and then I know we're talking about pro
here versus the college side. But then they get then
you know, they do a solid job. Free agency comes
up and they move on to their next team and
they thrive. Right the Devondre Campbell goes to Green Bay

(01:11:46):
and gets out into the league and does unbelievable stuff
in the league as a linebacker, one of the best
to play. We moved on from them in Atlanta for
some reason. There were a number of reasons there. I
shouldn't say for some reason. I was there as a GM.
I know why we did. It was a mistake in
the end, right when we look at it. So back
to linebackers and leadership linebackers and presence linebackers and building

(01:12:09):
your football team in the NFL, that is such an
important position to build around for many many reasons. Have
you ever experienced the person that comes in who has
all of those attributes that you think are top notch
and for some reason they did not reach their potential
And is that always a character sort of makeup shortcoming

(01:12:33):
or is it I mean, I guess it could be
injury as well. What was your experience that way.

Speaker 2 (01:12:38):
Yeah, there's definitely guys that you miss on and I
think when you and for various reasons, and not to
call any player out by name, I never do that,
but there's been guys that come in with high regard
if played it at top notch programs. A guy from

(01:13:00):
Alabama that came in and you were just expecting the
world from him because you knew what Alabama football was
and how they prepare their players for the next level.
And it had nothing to do with his physical makeup.
It had nothing to do with him as a player

(01:13:23):
and his knowledge of the game. He was actually smarter
than he wanted you to know. It was all about
everything outside of football, and it was a distraction. It
was noise, It was things that took away from He
was never ready to go when it came time for football.
He's either tired from the night before or it just

(01:13:46):
wasn't important enough for him. And it was a secondary job.
And this game is not for the feint of heart.
You know that, And it's not something that can be
your second job. You know, this has to be a commitment,
not just to yourself, and that's important, but you're committing

(01:14:07):
to the people in your locker room. You're committing to
your brothers. And guys knew that. And so he had
no support. He lost any leadership value that we thought
he had coming in. And those are just things you
just you know, so you and then again, I've also
at a different position, coached a guy that in all

(01:14:29):
the off season work what we call the OTAs organized
team activities. He made every play, but you only had
a helmet on. You go to training camp and put
the pads on. And this was not at a physical position.
This is out on the edge. He disappeared. And why
I mean as a coach, you take that as almost

(01:14:53):
a criticism on your ability to coach. But you would
sit down and you would put on every hat you
could possibly he put on, counselor friend, brother, coach, you know,
whatever it took to try to get this guy to
reach his potential or to stay at the level that
he showed you when you were out of pads. It
just never worked. And so there's different That's why I said,

(01:15:16):
there's different things that you can miss on, and you
have to know when to make the decision to move
on from that mistake or when it is something that
you can be coached out of. And everybody is different,
and so you have to really That's why I think

(01:15:36):
this is so unique, this opportunity that SUMER Sports has
put together, because you're taking that hands on evaluation from
all this experience in the NFL and tying it together
with the analytics and the numbers and trying to come
up with something special. And when you do that properly,

(01:15:59):
I'm telling you it's good to be very unique. And
those are things that I think are really exciting about
all of this. And I but even go too far
with that.

Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
No, Chuck, Look, I mean, I'm so passionate about this.
Of course, you know, my decision not to step back
into the NFL over the last three or four years
had everything to do with me thinking about what we're
doing here at SUMER and how you know, the evolution
of the league and where data is involved. Remember, everyone,

(01:16:27):
what we're talking about here from a purely scouting standpoint
and Suomer scout again, combination of subjective evaluating that we're
talking about and the objective analysis and utilization of data
that is out there. And I say this categorically, and
I say this respectfully to my general manager, brethren or contemporaries,

(01:16:50):
it is there is data out there that is criminally underutilized, Chuck.
There is data at everyone's disposal that for some reason,
for me, any reasons, might not be utilized. We think
at SUMER Sports, let's get those very very talented evaluators
and team builders who are never going to lose what

(01:17:10):
made them who they are and got them to where
they are heading up organizations, but then provide them with
the right data and the right objective analysis to supplement.
And I've said this time and again that takes the
average GM in this case to be a good GM,
and the good to be a very good, and maybe
the very good in this league to be a Hall

(01:17:31):
of Famer. I do believe that you have to differentiate
yourself as an evaluator slash team builder as a general manager.
And it's taking all of this into consideration, getting really
talented football evaluators in place like you amongst many of
our fifteen in this football Operations department that we have
in SUMER, and build on all of this experience right,

(01:17:54):
because there are no exact answers. I say this time
and again, and every one of my buddies that are
still in general manager's roles would raise their hand and say, hey,
this is not an exact science, and b I the
mistakes that they have made and I will raise my
hand as well, many more times than not had to
do with the person, not the player, so that player

(01:18:18):
might show everything on the field. And remember, everyone, we
don't we don't like grade a player down. Like our
job isn't to great a player down necessarily on his
lack of passion or his you know, innate ability to
play through an injury. We grade the player as he
is as a player, which, for instance, let's say he

(01:18:38):
had all the traits that we were looking for for
that inside position, inside back or position, and he graded
out as a seven to oh, that's a really good grade.
In the end, it's up to the general manager and
the head coach to sift through all of the information,
all of the combine workout, and all of the special
workouts we do in the spring to determine whether that's

(01:18:59):
seven oh player becomes a seven to five on the
board or becomes a six ' five or a five
to five if he plummets for some reason. There's a
there's a lot of work to do, and the more
that we can fold in the right amount of data
to supplement appropriately, it just makes it a more academic
and thoughtful approach. In no way am I saying this

(01:19:21):
is black box. This is about augmenting the experts out there.
It is the copilot that I think ultimately makes them
better at what they do. Why would you not want
to do that. That's for another conversation, Chuck. I just
wanted to piggyback off of what you said because I
am very passionate, just like you are. The more you're
around Sooomer Scout and the more you're around the Suomer

(01:19:43):
Sports Group and you realize the ability to fold in
your acute evaluation ability as well as the data that
can supplement your evaluation, to me, it becomes a no brainer.

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
I totally agree to you, and again just bringing that
up in evaluations, and no matter what your role is
in football, whether it's with the NFL out of the NFL,
I think you always want to be the best at
what you do. And when I left coaching and went

(01:20:20):
to the NFL office in the officiating department, that made
me a better football coach, but a better football person
because I wanted to do something to try to help
improve the game. And so when I went in, it
was trying to bridge the gap between coaching and officiating,

(01:20:40):
and so I learned the game from a completely different viewpoint,
and that was from the officiating standpoint. I went around
with the officials. I stood behind every position and watched
them and asked them questions and got a feel for
what they went through. I wish I had known that
as a young coach. I wish I had known that
as a veteran coach, so it made me a better

(01:21:01):
football mind. This is no different you know, the human evaluation,
the study as a coach of a player or as
a scout as a player. I was never with an
organization that was big with the numbers that you can get,
the data you can get, the analytics you can get.

(01:21:21):
So this to me is an opportunity and I'm learning
every day since you know, becoming a part of the team,
this is another chance to get better at what you do,
to become the best at what you offer, and to
hopefully make an impact on the game of football and
help staffs, general managers, whatever it may be, to take

(01:21:43):
it to the next level. So again, I just think
the opportunity is there and I'm so excited about it.
I'll I didn't go to a different mindset with making
those comments.

Speaker 1 (01:21:53):
Now, look, Chuck, those are great comments, and I did
want to talk more about the officiating because it gave
you an opportunity to see from a league perspective of
how they're how they are looking at you know, data
and how they're utilizing data and and next gen stats.
I mean, look, it is the way it's going. I've
said this. I've had myriad conversations with gms and head coaches,

(01:22:13):
former and president who have said, I get it, Thomas.
The league is moving in this direction. Some are hesitant
to use because they're not ready for it. Some again,
by their own admission, might raise their hands and say, look,
I'm not interested in using it right now because I'm
just trying to keep my head above water dealing with
what I'm dealing with, and I don't have time to

(01:22:34):
dig into the data side of this. And then there
are others that are very advanced and very open to
emerging technology and the use, properly use, proper usage of
the data that will make things that much better organizations.
There are organizations out there who thrive in in how
they're now starting to build their their systems group within

(01:22:56):
their their within their organization. I remember sitting around the
General Manager's Advisory Committee years and years ago is part
of that. I think for ten plus years we had
great conversations. In those earlier years and nine, ten and eleven,
the conversations were vastly different. Chuck we were talking about
sprinkling in data, but most people were concerned about it,

(01:23:18):
like I don't have enough time and bandwidth to worry
about data. You fast forward those comments to prior to
the end of when I left Atlanta, in those you know,
general manager advisory committee meetings, and where we were in
seventeen eighteen and nineteen, and the change in perception. Even
though people were concerned about, you know, the idea, I'm

(01:23:40):
a little bit concerned and agitated and unsure and uneasy
about what I don't know. That's where I would say
to people, well, take some extra time and get to
know it. Get more comfortable with the utilization of data,
get more comfortable with your systems people that you have
in fact hired and utilized their knowledge and their sort

(01:24:01):
of academic approach to it. Have them create, along with
third party companies like Sumer, proper algorithms that can help
you look at things the building of your team in
different ways. And then all of a sudden, you're no
longer a myopic football man slash woman. You are the

(01:24:24):
person who has a broader view of putting together a
top notch, potentially championship organization. If you are just here
if you are just thriving on being myopic as long
as you're in that position, well it's not going to
parlay into two, three and four contracts. You have to be,
in my opinion, respectfully, at all of my contemporaries in

(01:24:48):
the general manager role, and you'd probably say that about
the coaches. You have to be open to what's coming along. Ultimately,
it is your choice as a man in charge to
say yes or no on certain elements. But I just
think to be open about it and take it on
and learn more about it. I think coaches in general
managers will be much more rounded in their approach to

(01:25:10):
building football teams and hopefully becoming championship football teams. Chuck,
this has been fantastic. I know we could speak for
hours and hours, and I'm sure we will come back
to revisit defensive topics and linebacker topics in this season.
To come so incredibly excited about having you on board, Chuck,
Is there anything else you have to add before we
sign off?

Speaker 2 (01:25:31):
No, Tee. This is just such a great opportunity and
I'm so excited to be a part of it and
just look forward to where this whole process can take
us and it's just been an unbelievable privilege.

Speaker 1 (01:25:43):
So I thank you, all right, thank you so much.
Chuck Bresnahan, one of the fine football coaches and talent
evaluators in the NFL, checking off

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Scouting Linebackers w/ Fmr. Cincinnati Bengals & Oakland Raiders DC Chuck Bresnahan | Sumer Scout Deep Dive

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Scouting Linebackers w/ Fmr. Cincinnati Bengals & Oakland Raiders DC Chuck Bresnahan | Sumer Scout Deep Dive