August 27, 2024 • 48 mins
SumerSports President of Football Operations and former Atlanta Falcons General Manager, Thomas Dimitroff, interviews SumerSports scout and former Chicago Bears General Manager, Phil Emery, for the Sumer Scout Deep Dive series. In this series, Thomas Dimitroff sits down with his scouting staff to discuss their football journey and how they evaluate positions in the NFL.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Okay, here we are once again Sumer Scout Deep dives
with today another historical member of the NFL world, and
that is Phil Emory. Phil, I'm so excited about jumping
in on this. I mean, your summer's been good, I
take it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah, Thomas, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah,
it's been busy and fun and it's good, good time
with family and ready to go with season. As everybody
in the NFL is.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Well, we know this is a little different, right Phil,
when we come into to working at SUMER after many
many years in the NFL. When I said you're an
historical figure in this league, it's because you've been worked
through so many ranks and have done so many different things,
probably like me, very proud of your ascension, being at
every step, right. You didn't just shoot to the top.
(00:52):
You work through it all, which is what we Cleveland
sort of Detroit people like ourselves. There's some blue collar there.
We're out of that, right. So you know, I'd love
to kick this discussion off first, Phlle and you know
my fondness for you. I'm so excited that you were
here with us at Suomer. It's such a big get
for us as we are moving to build this football
operations department and have great scouting eyes like yourself. So
(01:16):
let's talk a little bit about your your upbringing and
you grew up in Detroit, but did you play multiple
sports where you've just focused on football. Let's take it
kind of background up until maybe around college time.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, great, you know, just to go back a little
bit of what you said. Proud of background. So I
still remember Rich McKay, who I've worked for a couple
of times, or you know, he's been in that in
that role where we all worked under him. He told
me once you've been down every rabbit hole there is
in football, and I think that's true. So but I
am proud of that. Grew up born in Detroit, a
(01:54):
hospital that's no longer there, Saint Providence, the original one,
lived in Dearborn from a bit and then was raised
basically in Garden City, Michigan, which is a blue collar town.
Everybody on the streets. Dad worked in one of the
three auto companies, you know, Christler four GM. I don't
think anybody missed in that regard. So it was a
(02:14):
baby boomer generation. Lots of lots of folks in the neighborhood,
lots of children my age, so very competitive fun sports.
Growing up, I did participate in all three sports. Uh,
in terms of what I say three, I threw the
shot in discus, played football, and also played basketball. And
believe it or not, I was my high school center
(02:36):
all of at six foot two, so you know that
was that was a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Six What was your weight though, I'm yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Know, back then I was like two o five, you know,
so about what I am now? You know that was
my natural weight and you know, really got into strength
training at that time. In high school. My last year,
got very fortunate, got a scholarship small college, Wayne State University,
big university Division two sports. Played college ball there for
(03:05):
four years and started the last three. I loved that experience.
Really developed as time went on, more and more of
a love for football. I really felt I wanted to
coach and teach. When I got out, I got a
degree in teaching physical education. Really wanted to pursue that
at the high school level. Unfortunately, in the state of
(03:26):
Michigan back and back then, you know, the seventy nine
eighty one era, there were no jobs in the state
in physical education. A lot of the teachers were still
quite a bit short of retirement that were in front
of that circle, so there were no jobs opening, so
I decided to go to the coaching route. I became
a student coach there at Wayne State, and then I
(03:48):
was a graduate assistant for Herb Doromedy at Central Michigan
University for a year, and then I went and coached
for two years with a gentleman that was our head
coach at Wayne State. Stated temporarily blocked or dropped the program, Thomas,
so he left. They brought it back under a non scholarship.
After he left, he was at a little school called
(04:10):
Western New Mexico University Harvard on Nihila. I got my
graduate degree there. I coached O line, I was the
equipment manager. We did our own game fields. I was
a hit strength coach. I recruited in New Mexico, West Texas,
all the jcs in Arizona, some of the j seas
(04:30):
in California. So just a great building situation in terms
of personal growth and coaching and having multiple assignments to handle.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So that's a great point, and we'll talk about this
a little bit more when we talk about the GM role.
You know, in your time during Chicago, I would say
when I look back on my upbringing and being around
football all my life, I was very proud of that,
all the levels that I climbed to get to that spot.
It wasn't it wasn't just handed to me something that
you are very proud of. It helps set the tone
(05:03):
for how you are as a manager and as a
leader and ultimately a general manager. Would you not suggest
that given all the levels that you work through, I
mean you were working on fields like when you came
to the general manager role again we'll talk about it,
you had all of that background in your mind right
how you were going to lead that organization.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Which is a good way, Yeah, to agree with you, Thomas.
It helps you a lot At number one, It helps
you appreciate the roles of others and what they do
for the team. It also gives you a standard that
you're looking for, that you understand what can and can
be done if you've got a strong work ethic and
(05:43):
you goal orientated and organizations goal orientated. So it helps
you a ton that way, and you can come at
it from a perspective when you talk to people in
different roles that you understand because you've been there. You know,
one of my best relationships when I was in Chicago
Bears was with the person that managed our great in
our fields and the stadium grass. And you know, that
(06:04):
was a great relationship because I understood that his role
and I understood what he went through and the trials
and tribulations and how even you know, in that role
there can be a lot of public pressure on the
condition of the grass and pressure from players for practice.
So it was a lot easier to relate to him
having been down or painted those fields and trying to
repair fields at that level. You know, NCA two A
(06:26):
INNAIA Division one. You just did a lot of work
on your own, so it really prepared you for later on.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
As you were you were looking through all that and
working through those early days and being in the collegiate ranks,
when did you start thinking about moving in towards the
NFL And were you thinking coaching? Were you thinking strength
coach or were you thinking player personnel?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, I really got fascinated with scouting when I was
a GA at Central Michigan. I was a graduate assistant.
I was an assistant offensive line coach at that time.
I was the second old line coach. You know, I
was put in charge along with the other Gas the
winter program strength program. Really loved it, always loved that
end of it as a player, really got involved in
(07:07):
it at Wayne State and studying not only about you know,
just strength training, but how to do it and how
to organize it, how to do it in groups. So
I always had my eye on scouting. I talked to
a lot of scouts when I was at Central, and
just you know, didn't always run into a bunch in
some of the places I was at, you know, Western
(07:27):
New Mexico, Georgetown College in Kentucky, Saginaw Valley in Michigan,
so that was a little slow in coming. But once
I went to University of Tennessee Thomas, we saw scouts daily,
so I got to ask a lot of questions that
really got to observe their roles and thought, you know, someday,
that's that's the direction I want to go. I would
say that, you know, I loved coaching. I love strength
(07:50):
coaching even more because you were more hands on and
you the players could relate almost directly to you in
terms of you had a feel for their daily improvement
and you could be part of their success that way,
So that's a real feel good. But when it came
to scouting and I knew I had hit the place
where I belonged, I could really focus on a job
(08:11):
in driving towards excellent and it came natural to me
because I had spent my whole career up till that point.
I was sixteen years in at that point of observing
athletic movement. The last eleven is a strength coach, and
as a coach, obviously with a whole line, D line
and just being part of the staff, it's all about
watching tape and analyzing which players can fit what role.
(08:32):
So that I felt that that was the most natural
thing for me in the course of a career.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So from there, can you speak before we move on
to like your ascension through the NFL ranks and scouting
on the way to the GM role Naval Academy. Can
you talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, I got the opportunity to spend eight years there.
Actually was a tenured professor. When I left. I was
the hit strengthen conditioning coach for football, but by title,
I was just strength coach for all sports, numerous sports.
I actually hands on was lacrosse, basketball. At some points,
Women's crew taught classes up to six a week, so
(09:12):
it was a wide encompassing role and it was a
lot of fun in that you developed a relationship with
the athletes and also with the everyday student, the midshipman.
So you really felt part of the total process of
the place of educating young officers for their roles, you know,
as officers in the United States Navy.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I love that. I mean, obviously there's some great men
through through that, through the Naval Academy and some great
history there back to being an historical figure in our league.
So let's walk through transition and growth in the National
Football League. Got your first job, when and where in
scouting and how you moved through the league.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, you know, I got a lot of help with that.
I was really trying to break into the combines. Scout
named Andy Dangler, who's with the Oakland Raiders, really tried
to help me. It just wasn't coming at the time.
The director didn't see the transition and understood because he
had a lot of veteran scouts out of work that
he wanted to fill in those roles. But I just
(10:14):
kept plugging in through Andy's help and through Tim Minghey,
who was also another longtime scout in the league historical figure.
We had been together at the University of Tennessee. He
was our recruiting coordinator under Johnny Majors, so he helped me.
He helped me with a friend of his, Bill Reese.
The Chicago Bears got the interview, worked through the process,
(10:36):
and I got the job. I was named the East
Coast Scout, where most beginners in the role at that
time went because there weren't very small staffs back then.
I think I was the fifth full time scout and
we hired Shimmy Schimbecker is our blessed O scout. I
think he was the sixth and there was maybe one
(10:57):
intern at the time, and there was a pro college
director and that was the staff. So the place to
learn was the East because there weren't as many Division
I schools, they allowed for I guess more mistakes Thomas
to put it, you know, to put it in the
right context. But there was a lot to learn. They
really helped me in terms of I had about thirteen
schools on crosschecks that were bigger schools in the Carolina's
(11:19):
in the SEC. So learned a lot that way and
then scout that It was a true mentor to me
in every sense of the word. Bobby Regal, who had
the Southeast, who had a lot of experience, really took
me under his wing and he decided to retire. And
the true story is that Bobby said, Phil, I'm going
(11:40):
to retire. I'm not going to tell anybody. I'm going
to suggest you take the Southeast that you need that
for growth, and I want to work closer to home.
He goes, and when they do that, then I'm going
to retire. So he did that. He did that for me.
He really did something special for me. So I became
the Southeast scout and then the growth really accelerated because
you're watching great football all the time, right You're seeing
(12:02):
the guys that are as close to the level of
the guys that are playing the league as possible at
the top end of the league. So a lot of
growth there that went on for five years. One day
I got to call it was down celebrating my parents'
fiftieth anniversary down on a beach and here in Florida,
and wanted me to interview for a position with Atlanta
(12:24):
Falcons as director of college scouting. It's a very competitive position. Obviously,
I got lucky, got the job and grew from there.
You and I have a you know, crossover path that
you came in at the end of that. I always
feel very fortunate that I was able to stay in
a role in the organization and loved it, and you
(12:46):
yourself helped me, you know. From there, I went to
the Kansas City Chiefs as a director of college scouting
under Scott Pioli. We had a nice little run. We
had tough first year, it was a lot of transition.
The second year we won our won our division, lost
to Baltimore the playoffs, and then the third year was
not as good. You know, we had a coaching change
(13:06):
and there was another transition. And then in two twelve,
at the end of that third year there, I got
a call or started calling and asking some of my
fellow scouts that I coached or scouted with it with
the Bears about the open position there. When when Jerry
Angelo was let go, went through the interview process, I
still remember the most grueling thing I've ever gone through,
(13:27):
you know, one day, last fourteen straight hours of questions.
But at the end of the day, I got the
job and couldn't have been happier, couldn't have been happier
for my family. It was a long journey that lasted
three years, you know, obviously shorter than I wanted it
to last. But when you don't win in the league,
you don't retain your job. It's simple fact. I thought
(13:50):
we had some good picks, you know, Kyle Long, Kyle Fuller,
al Sean Jeffrey. We had some good football players. We
brought in some good players. It just didn't mix. Sometimes
things just don't come together as a team, no matter
the elements, and it didn't. We had a rough year
as lank Go is out of work for year, and
(14:10):
then I got a call from you and I ended
up coming in as a national scout. I was there
in that role for a little while. At the end,
I basically just had an elevated position title. I was
a senior personnel executive my last few years there, the
last two years there after that I retired, and then
(14:31):
this past January I got on with Sooner.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So I mean, so much to talk about there, and
you know, talking about the ascension towards a GM role,
and you know, very few people get an opportunity to
be a GM and you know, I would put you
right up there with some of the best evaluators out
there and team builders. To your point, sometimes things just
don't come together for some reason. And there are many
reasons we can't talk about here. We won't even go there, right,
(14:56):
I'm talking about organizationally. There are things that happen and
in their nuances and changes. Of course, I having an
opportunity to work with you again on the other side
and bringing you back to Atlanta to work with our group.
I don't know how many times, remember i'd passed you
and and I'm trying to think of had we had
a good group of veteran guys, right, you know, when
we start thinking about those guys, and I would tell
(15:18):
you how important it was for me to spend time
with you guys, even though as you remember, I was
so damn busy in that role U. But to be
around you guys and and talk was a big big thing,
and talk football and really sit in those draft meetings
and discuss football as it should be, not all the
ten other departments that we were responsible for. One of
(15:38):
the things I want to come back to a minute
you mentioned, Bobby Regal, I have a great memory of
Bobby Regal when I was starting out right, those of
us who were younger in the business, was some of
these historical guys. I mean I'm saying we're historical. I'm
talking about some that carried us on their shoulders, right,
Was there anyone else out there? You know, they didn't
have to be from our teams that you just had
a great deal of respect, you know, there were the
(15:59):
there were so many of those old boy scouts that
I just loved. I had such an incredible relationship along
with my dad being on the road. But they were
football dudes through and through. Can you talk a little
bit more about some of those other guys who were
who made impacts on your team building approach but as
well as your leadership and your interactions as you made
(16:19):
your way through the ranks.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, were there were some veteran scouts. You know, when
I got in the league, I was close to forty
years old, and that was a little bit more common
than not common at that point, you know, where it's
kind of the opposite now a lot of young people
come in as scouting assistants and work their way up.
It's just the reverse of the system. So the VET
(16:43):
Scouts at the time when I was forty, a lot
of them were twenty years older than me. Were Now
those guys would be, you know, forty years older than
the current generation of Scouts. So you know, I had
there was a bunch of sixty year olds in the
league and they're just sitting in a room with them.
Was always because they had such great stories. But they
always had something relative to say that would help you
(17:05):
that day, and they were people that would help you.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
That's a great point where you sit. And just for
the listeners here who don't know, we would sit in
those earlier days. We would sit in you know, rooms
and there might be three or four rooms at the
University of Alabama or Tennessee, some of the big programs,
and you would have a scattering of Scouts. There be
four or five here, four or five here, or sometimes
it would be an entire lecture hall and we would
(17:29):
all be in. There'd be forty of us, right, I'm
talking about the big schools. The funny thing is, remember,
just for a little bit of context, we would walk
in some of us who were younger in the business,
and you'd see some of the older guys, really established
guys and no disrespect to anyone, but everyone had their
personality traits. And you would see someone with a clicker
in the hand and you're like, oh my god, I
need to go to another room because this is going
(17:51):
to be this is going to be like a fast
paced or a slow pace. God blessed and soul. George Sames,
Washington Redskins at the time, right one of the scouts
that we all knew very very very well. I mean
that guy was so fast on the clicker, like if
you weren't on the ball, man you I don't know
how you could even see because he was moving through
(18:13):
it so fast.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
But the point is Ard Thomas is what you're trying
to say.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, high standard. He was a fun guy to be around.
But there were a lot of those guys. George Sames,
by the way, I remember little story. We could talk
about these all day. We're at the University of Clemson.
I come around the corner and I'm talking to Gary
Wade back in the day, good friend of yours as well,
love Gary as a strength coach. I see, way off
in the distance, I see this guy probably looked fifty
(18:37):
five or sixty five, shirt off on a headstand, hands
headstand doing yoga, and I'm like, what is that person
doing down there? I thought it was a coach. I
get up there, and it's George Sames, one of the
scouts in the NFL, using the weight room to do
shirtless yoga. It was such a great gritory.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Wow, he was a fun I would say, you know,
during that era, you know, Tim was a little older
than me, and he really helped me a great deal
understand how to scout on the road and pro days.
I followed him around like a puppy. Here. I am
forty and he was probably I don't know, maybe forty
eight fifty at the time. But he had such fast
(19:18):
knowledge between his years as a recruiting coordinator and a coach,
and then he had been in the league for a
little while before then, and I really relied on him
and he helped me probably more than any single individual.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
He was so organized, and he's such a good man
as well. I mean, Tim Mingy and those kind of guys. Again,
some were closer to being our peers, some were older,
as you know, and some were younger. And we got
a chance to look at some of the younger people
that were coming in and it was interesting to watch
how they were transitioning and how the league was transitioning, right,
which might lead us eventually into talking about the evolution
(19:52):
of the league where it was fifteen, twenty or thirty
years ago scouting and where it is now. And there
are some adjustment and changes and again nuances to scouting
today that are different. Well, as we transition into talking
about scouting, what I'd be really interested to do is
talk about we're going to talk about tight ends today.
(20:13):
Like I've said to many people on the past pods here,
every NFL scout is adept at a certain level at
evaluating every position. No one is expected to be just
evaluating tight ends or running backs or quarterbacks. We evaluate everyone.
And then on the other side of going out on
the road or if you're a pro scout, especially on
(20:35):
the college side, right, Phil, we would focus on having
a position that we would really focus on as a scout.
Right and in this situation, we want to talk about
you and your focus on tight ends and evaluating tight
ends today. Again, knowing you have knowledge across the board
at so many levels, when you start thinking about evaluating
tight ends, Phil, what is the first thing that you
(20:56):
come into and how do you approach that tight end
or those tight ends that you're looking at as you
begin the process of scouting a tight end.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, probably, you know, the high weight speed is a
big deal in terms of trying to figure out how
does this guy fit into the skill sets that you're
going to evaluate, you know, because every type of tight
end is a little bit different in terms of what
they bring. You know, you might have a smaller player,
uh for a tight end that might be a you know,
(21:28):
a six two six three and forty five pound guy,
and what you're looking is like, well, he better be
quick and fast and catch well, right, or you have
a really big body tight end and the first thing
you're looking for is maybe that's my why Maybe he's
the blocker right or is he you know, or is
he got a full skill set? So you're looking at
(21:50):
that player and the first glance is how does he fit?
Does he have at least one skill set or a
physical parameter that's going to help you win at the game?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And Phil, can I just lean in on that because
it's a great way to go. So what you're trying
to do out the gate is differentiate between and you
can do this usually early on right, at least get
an idea. This guy's a why you know, he's more
of a blocking tight end. This guy's an f move
tight end. And the combo, which we know are the
big money guys right that can do both adeptly and
(22:24):
our good sized guys and speed guys. Right, So are
you really approaching it in three different ways to see? Okay,
now that I know where I think this player is,
I'm looking at him from that lens a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, I'm looking at the perspective of what does he
bring in this great him appropriately? Yeah, there's going to
be certain things that he's not going to do. So
a six foot seven guy that's aggressive and strong and
if he's quick off the ball should be a better
blocker than the six foot three, two hundred and fifty
pound guy, even if he's his quick off the ball
and you know, strong first, So, what does this person
(23:02):
bring And let's not you know, for want for better word,
hammer him for the things he can't do. What can
he do? Let's grade him at that certain level and
let's describe that fit. So if this is a vertical
stretch receiver with size who can catch really well and
he's courageous. Well, then he's got something. So let's we'll
(23:23):
take a look at the blocking, but let's grade it
appropriately and let's not discount him just because he's not
to sixty five or to seventy or to eighty.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And so we start thinking about tight ends, and let's
let's just start with the idea as well. Evaluating tight
ends is a really interesting position. I liked it as well.
Of course, you know we've also talked on here. There
are certain positions that we like doing because it's what
we played in high school, college or whatever it was. Right,
some people who you know, if they played second in
(23:55):
the second area of corner of safety, are really intrigued
by scouting a lot of O linemen and D lineman
because they've not been in that role, right, they need
to work on the areas that's not as natural to them.
I know personally, I spent a lot of time in
the World League evaluating countless numbers of O line and
I loved it. It was a really cool idea being
involved in an area that you know, that wasn't where
(24:17):
I was, of course taking STAPs. So when when we
start thinking about the tight end position and we think
about your when you're evaluating tight ends, it is a
full time job because you're not only evaluating all of
the run game, you are evaluating the pass game. It's
one of the few positions that you really like on
a receiver. Yes, you are evaluating the pass game. You're
(24:38):
not spending a ton of time on the run game.
The nuance is a blocking right because it's it's not
as expected as much as a tight end. There's a
lot there on that and that in that evaluation.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, you're you're you're evaluating his ability to do it
at some spot more. I guess that's what I was
leading into in the beginning, is you know, some guys
might be longer and leaner but really fast. And if
you have a role where he can be an outside
blocker in a run game, almost as a wide out,
(25:08):
then if how well does he do that, Let's not
hammer him because he's not an inline blocker, or can
he be a wing and be a chip guy, or
you know, it's just finding that body type and his
skill sets and finding a right blend for him, and
is there enough of the positives that that's a player
you either want to draft or move forward with in
(25:29):
some way.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
So let's stay on blocking for a minute, and then
we're going to definitely go to the pass element to
this on the blocking side. And I've had countless conversations
and some arguments with some of the past coaches we
had at Atlanta quite honestly in that GM role where
I was knocking my head against the wall because I
was thinking, Look, we're watching video and these players aren't
(25:51):
as tight ends blocking as you we'd expect. We need
to keep that in perspective, right Phil, Just because he's
a bigger guy and or even a move guy and
he's two fifty to fifty five, we're not expecting him
to blow a D lineman off the ball. It's it's
getting positioned, it's having enough enough leverage and agility to
keep your feet, et cetera, et cetera. Talk me through
(26:13):
how you approach blocking evaluation for the tight ends and
what you're expecting out of that role.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Right Well, you know, you're again you're gonna look at
the size and relative where he's blocking at on the field.
But first, foremost, first step quickness off the ball, because
they've got to establish a position. They're usually if they're
really involved in the run game as such as with
his own stretch. They've got to be able to get
to the outside number or the outside edge of the
(26:41):
defender and secure that in some way. Now, like you said, Thomas,
they're not always going to blow him back and produce
vertical force and vertical room for the back, But can
they establish outside leverage quick enough and have enough length
and strength to at least told the line of scrimmage
to give the back an opportunity while all the other
(27:03):
linemen are running off the ball in his own stretch,
that he can find the correct scene, or he's too
light in the pants, he's not strong enough, or he's
not quick and off the ball and he's getting pushed
back or the defenders penetrating off the snap. So you
just got to establish and as we all do as evaluators,
you're looking at level of ability. It's not like he's
(27:26):
you don't use the words terrible or he's great. It's
what level he is he through a one through ten
scale for us, could be a one nine for somebody else.
It's what level is that you're always keeping your eye on.
You know, don't get cut up cut up in the
he's at the top end. It's Okay, Well what is
top end? Oh that's a ten? Okay? Is that a ten?
(27:48):
Or is that an eight? Or is that a seven?
So you're always trying to equate what you see on
tape with that grade scale because that grade scale is
a system of communication. That's how you establish who that
player is.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And you made a valid point there. I mean, again,
contingent on whether the guy is a traditional y or
he's a combination guy, or he's a light in the pants,
more move type of tight end. There's varying degrees of
what's expected from us as NFL people to evaluate their
blocking prowess. Right, so you know you're going to expect
that white, white tight end to go out there and
(28:23):
occupy the line much more and move some people off
the ball considerably more than you are on the move guy.
You know the Again, I have always thought, if you
can get that tight end that does both and does
it depinitely enough where where if you let's just say
that that combination guy who is a really good athlete
but also is fifty five and strong and aggressive and
(28:44):
he blocks like a six, but he runs routes and
he's an athlete like an eight man, you got you
have something there, Right, You're not just expecting that combination
tight end to be an eight blocker and an eight
pass receipt. That's very, very rare.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, you would love it, right, that's ultimately what you're
looking at. That's the top of the scale. But you're
looking if a combination of skills. Again, you know what
we talked about, is enough positive that leads you in
a direction that he's got something positive that can help
you win as a team. So, for like, for that
move guy is he has to be able to block
well enough whatever the formation is, whatever role you put him,
(29:24):
whether you put them out all the way out at
X or if you put them in the wing, or
if you move him from the inside and he's a
trap blocker, he has to do that at least at
the enough level, which for us is basically a five
or six, so that when he's in the game, people
don't think he's a pass only guy. They're going to pass, right.
You don't want to give away your offense based on
(29:46):
who's in the game. He has to have enough skill
sets that it's undetermined. Yes, when he's in the game,
he only blocks certain ways that you know they'll get
tendencies on that. But he does block right, and he
might be helping the why they might put two tight
ends to the side, and he's got just enough to
help that bigger tight end to get in a better
leverage position to establish the edge of the offense so
(30:09):
that the back can run past them.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Another easy segue into what I used to discuss with
Bill Belichick all the time in Scott Pioli and I
know you have with us that tight end. Interestingly enough,
it's you have to have a really good sense for
most teams and most of that position, a football sense
and a football intelligence. You can't have a really challenged
(30:34):
guy at that spot. There's a lot going on in
that tight end spot. Can you comment on that, the
intelligence of that position.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, they have to be not only a proactive athletes
in terms of what we talk in terms they already
know certain established things and how well and how quick
can they get there, but reactively so if things cross
their face, they have to know whether to take that
player or not take that player move on to the
next level, right, So they have to think on their feet,
especially when they get into the move situations. So in college,
(31:03):
you know, watching this past spring, they're a ton of
offenses in college to put that tight end is the
move receiver, to determine what the defense is in and
to put him in a better position to block or
run route. So they got to be able to think
fast because a lot of times now they're on the move,
whether it's coming from the inside of the formation, is
(31:24):
the fullback or the motion inside tight end, coming from
a wing coming back inside, or all the way across
the formation or all the way out. They have to
be able to react to what they see. So yes,
intelligence is very important.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So the intelligence of that, you know, being able to
decide on not only the run game, but again the
pass game leads me into pass games. So when you're
talking about running routes, you're talking about catching the ball,
you're talking about ball skills, right tracking the ball when
it's in the air. I go back to someone I
was fortunate enough to be around some really good tight ends,
and the biggest acquisition we ever made in Atlanta, of
(32:00):
you know, was a guy like Tony Gonzalez. Having an
opportunity to see Tony with some great tight ends that
we had in New England, of course, but to watch
Tony Gonzalez and watch what he did for our organization.
How he helped. And I'm a big believer in this,
Phil and I know you are. You get a young
quarterback and you get a high percentage shot to a
tight end who's got these big old hands, probably double
(32:21):
my hand size, and who can run routes and is
aggressive and athletic like Tony was. It was a big
part of Matt Ryan developing. So let's talk route running
on you know, on more of the pure tight end,
so let's call it the combo tight end. Let's talk
about how you start that evaluation. Is it off the
ball as well? The route running right?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Well, a lot of a lot of times now it's
out of a two point stance. That's you know, the
game has changed that way from beck on the day
and receivers had their hand down on the grounds. They're
coming off the line of scrimmage. So it's about getting
off the ball and it's about finding the cleanest release
as possible. It's having a f agility movement in the
hips and feet together. But I always call it the
(33:04):
body moving in unison. Does everything come together when you step?
Are your hips, knees, feet, hip position in the right
position to keep accelerating forward or is there a lag
or are your hips behind your feet? So can he
move in? Unison is a big thing for a route runner, right,
because they have to get a lot of times the
(33:25):
tight end is dealing with either a larger DN or
an outside linebacker's also an up position. His hands are
free to derail their patterns, So can they maneuver past
them clean release? Can they accelerate downfield and create pressure
on the defense or the defender covering them enough that
he is going to be able to establish separation space,
(33:47):
be able to break, bend his knees, deaccelerate as quick
as possible, redirect whatever direction back downhill to his right
or his left. How quickly does he cut, how does
that look, how fast is it, how coordinated is it?
And how much separation did he actually gain from the
defender that's cut responsible for that area in terms of
(34:11):
spacing or just creating that separation, either with his speed, quickness, size, strength.
You know some of the best guys in terms of
hand to hand inside combat as a tight end or
guys that are really strong and really know how to
push off at the right time. Right, There is an
art and a skill to it and if you see
it and he has it, he has a kN act
for it. That's what you write down. This guy has
(34:33):
a knack for getting away from defenders using his body
and his strength, and he really knows how to set
up in a rebound position right basketball term, he can
really use his hips to ward the defender off and
create catch space. So there's a lot to that route running.
You know, it can be simple things like there's tight
(34:54):
ends in the league that can really hit it vertically
and create the separation that way. They may not even
be the better route runners. They may just be fast.
There's guys that are super quick, quick feet, quick maneuvers.
They set up, they find the defenders, they got quick minds.
They're spacing against some own defenses really fast, and sure
(35:14):
they move when they were quarterback moves to keep that
relative distance away from defenders. There's guys that just deaccelerate fast,
got great body control, come back downhill, make themselves a
big target and catch the ball. So you're looking at
how he runs his routes. What's the skill set this
guy does to get open, Because ultimately is did he
(35:35):
get open no matter the method?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, and that's a great discussion point as well, because
sometimes when people get in and they're the younger scouts,
they're used to watching these really fluid, athletic, explosive receivers, right,
and then they move in and they start evaluating tight ends.
They're not used to seeing the difference, so they're they're
grading more negatively and harder on some of these tight
(35:59):
ends because they're looking for the fluidity and the explosiveness
that they have in some of the receivers. And there
are some more longer levered tight ends. Of course they're
not moving in the same way as that really movement
fluid receiver. So the only point I make there is
the more tight ends that we watch and we can
compare to the better in this position to say like, look,
(36:21):
he still may look a little bit heavy, a legged,
or long levered, but in the scope in the context
of some of the great tight ends, I mean, he
is right up there on that. It's a point that
I always used to make to our scouts. Don't get
caught up thinking, well, this guy doesn't really have the
speed and he's only a four to eighty five, or
(36:42):
you know, we can talk about the requirements there, but
that is something that I think is important because, like
you said, it may not always be the prettiest for
the tight end to get to that spot of being open.
But the guys like I mentioned earlier, Tony Gonzalez and
some of the newer, younger tight ends, they get open.
They may not always look the best and the most
fluid getting open, but they're getting open and they're making
(37:04):
big time plays and they're running after the catch. Do
you want to talk about that next part of it?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, you know, going back a little bit to what
we were talking about. You know, ultimately all positions are
this way, but you know, that tight end, especially the
disparity between the sizes and speeds of tight ends and
their roles and what they can help you with when
you struggle. I always go back to this what does
(37:32):
he produce? And if he's a guy that catches, let's say,
in college, twenty balls right for the season, how did
he catch those twenty how did he get open? How
did he create enough space? And how what does he catch?
So if you're ever like lost on what can this
guy do as a route runner, just go back and
(37:53):
look at the actual catch and how that catch was produced.
And it could be simple. It could be Hey, those
are all against zone. This guy's really good at reading
the spacing and sitting down at the right spot. So
he's intelligent. He's an intelligent tight end. He's going to
be smart enough to be a second or a third
guy because he can find a way to get open
(38:15):
against underneath coverage, especially zone. Now type against man, he
might not be able to get away from anybody, and
that might be where you see what you were talking about, Tom.
Somebody's a little clunkier, maybe a little tighter, a little stiffer.
That's not going to fit that role as far as
a separator against man defense. But he can do things.
(38:35):
So you're always looking back at the production and how
is it produced and what against what coverage and what
situation in terms of setting himself up for the catch.
How quick are his eyes in his hands right, that's
ball reaction quickness. How fast can you pick up the ball?
How fast you know? How quickly are his hands and
(38:57):
how soft are they right? And then just the pure
sureness of him. Does he finished catches, how many does
he drop, how many does he catch? How well does
he catch it? You know, back when I was in
Chicago my last go around, we developed scales for just
about everything, and we had a handscale. Okay, A six
was somebody that could catch the ball away from his
(39:19):
body with consistency right, A seven where somebody could catch
it further away from his frame right, and eight was
an extreme reach. It didn't matter what direction. It was
high to the side, lateral catch, low catch below his knees,
where his hands positioned properly when they were below his
waists and above his waist, So that was the left.
(39:39):
And a nine was a spectacular catch against competition. Right,
it was a contested catch no matter how he did it,
but he got hit when he made the catch. Right,
So there were all different levels, and we you know,
just like you always are grading the route, right, you're
always grading the catch the ball skills. And you know
(40:00):
what you do as a scout is if you really
tuned into the player, you're finding ways to make marks
for their production. So that route, hey, that route is
a seven. That next route that was a seven, That
next route was a five, the next route was a six,
And you're looking at the consistency of who this player is.
Within that great scale. All those elements are route running,
(40:20):
catching ball skills, and run after the catch. Some guys
are productive run after catch simply because they're big and
they fall forward. If they do that consistently, they're gaining
two to three yards, you know, just from their height
and their size. Now, how athletic are they? Right? Do
they actually have running skills? Can they actually get away
(40:43):
from somebody either through the use of strength, quickness, maneuverability,
or just pure vertical speed. Really, all receivers, you're looking
for that special guy that secures the catch and his
hips flip vertical upfield as fast as possible. How well
does it do that? You know? I can remember watching
Emmanuel Sanders in college, and that is something that just
(41:05):
clearly stood out. He was gifted at turning up field
as quick as possible after the catch and getting vertical.
He never took a negative step or sideway step. That
foot always and those hips always got turned up field.
He was well coached and he was natural at it.
So you're always looking for the little things to make
the separation points in players and levels of players.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
That's a great assessment and approach to, you know, putting
it all together, because there's I mean, in my mind,
it is such an important position. As we've mentioned before.
It's a great transition position to have again one, two,
or even three legitimates. I mean Bill Belichick did that
of course with Tom Brady, right. I mean I would
(41:48):
say that if I were to be coming in with
any young quarterback, I'd say this to any young general manager.
You make sure that you have your proper stall of
tight ends who can work at a lot of different levels.
Because again, high percentage shot takes the pressure off of
the quarterback to be tossing the ball deep or deep
balls or deep routes. It's to me, it's just a
(42:10):
really good, uh and effective position to have on your
roster and not just like eking it out right, I
have a couple of so called like midliners in today's world.
I don't think you can do that personally, if I
before we go on and finish this, when you go
on as a scout evaluating tight ends, and I hate
(42:32):
to put you on the spot here because a lot
of people ask these questions to us as former whereas
scouts and formal former gms, what person at that position
at that tight end position or two or three do
you use as a gauge? Do you use an old schooler?
Do you use like a Do you use someone that's, hey,
they've been in it five years? Do you in fact
(42:53):
use you know, young guys, how are you comparing the
tight ends that you are looking at?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
You know, as a former detroiter, I'm gonna say, well, yeah,
they got to be better than Charlie Sanders, Right, that's
a long time ago times. So I say that jokingly.
You know, you look at the historics of the position, certainly,
but you know, as this game has moved on, it's
only gotten faster, right, It's only gotten more athletic. It's
(43:23):
only the ball's coming at him a little quicker. The
ball's coming at a little faster. The defenses are more complex.
They got to think faster. But when you watch somebody
like Kelsey, I mean, you know, he might be slowing
down a little bit. It's not It's hard to tell, right,
I mean, he's he's still catching a lot of balls.
He's had, you know a number of years, over one
(43:44):
hundred catches, I believe. So he separates himself and his
ability to get open. You know, are you saying, hey,
he's the best vertical tight end ever? No, not necessarily,
But I'll tell you one thing. He's probably the best
receiver at that position ever in terms of getting open
again multiple types of defenses and multiple double and triple coverages.
(44:06):
He really separates himself from all the other tight ends
in the game in that way.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Well, that's a great example of a guy to follow.
And again, we talk all the time about comparatives in
this league, and we talk about scouting. I mean, that's
what's so ingrained in our mind, right, Phil. We need
to stack when we're stacked, busting, when we're setting up
our board, massaging our board. Again as a GM, as
a personnel director, or even as a scout when you're
just looking at a position grouping, we're always trying to
(44:33):
compare and juxtaposed, which I think is vital if you
don't do that. It was one of the things I
did learn from you know, Scott Pioli and Bill Belichick, Right,
we all know this. You need to know the team
that you are you working for. You need to know
them inside out, right. We need to know the talent
that we are grading against, which is important, which is
(44:53):
a little different for summer sports, as you know, because
somer sports we're grading ultimately for the league here, it's
a little bit different, but we are grading, keeping everything
in perspective, and we definitely are comparing the top to
the middle to the lower levels out there. I would
just say this, Phil like a massive respect and appreciation
for you at so many levels personally and of course professionally.
(45:16):
I am so glad and thrilled that you're working with us.
You are such an important part of what we're doing here.
Your insight is fantastic. I look back and I think
of and this is my pitch at Sumer. Right, I
think out there and I think about these other third
parties out there, and there are some good ones people
that you have been you and I have been involved
with right and companies that we have a great deal
of respect for, and I will never lose the respect
(45:38):
for them. That said, what we're doing at Suomer, with
this collection of very very talented football men with really
adept ability to scout in eyes, to me, it's it's
second to none out there because we have over five
hundred years of experience with people like yourself. I just
think it is it is so valuable to have this
(46:00):
group of people coming together and talk about, you know,
the evaluation of players and positions, not only in the
NCAA but in the NFL as well. So thank you
so much for joining.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
I really appreciate it. Tom. So I'll say a couple
of things here at the end. You know, Jerry Angelo
always used to say when worked Underman Chicago, and he
taught me so much about scouting. You talk about a
veteran that helped me in terms of being your boss.
You know, he forced us to do all of our
own tape breakdown every year and do really the entire
(46:31):
class of the team that you were in and put
their good and bad plays on tape as soon as
they started producing at enough level that you knew they
were going to be a player at some level in
the league. So that meticulous work really helped me grow
as a scout. And I know all the scouts that
I was with, but Jerry always used to say, you know,
(46:52):
this is where experience. What you're talking about in terms
of experience and knowing what you're looking at and knowing
how to compare it and grade it appropriately to get
the right grade on the player for the league. For
sumer for presenting the players to the teams that we
work with is if he doesn't remind you of something
(47:14):
or some aspect of another player, he's probably not a
really good player. But that's a bank right that you
collect as a individual evaluator. And what's your bank right?
Is that bank forty years of athletics, you know, we
have several of those people in our organization or is
it a few years of experience, which so your bank
(47:36):
is going to determine kind of your hit rate and
your ability as an evaluator over the time you have
to build that. It takes a little time, right. Fortunately,
I was in a background that I was involved in
athletics a long time before I started scouting, when I
was you know, thirty nine to forty years age. But
that bank really matters, and that's what we have. Not
only do we have all the analytics behind right that
(48:01):
are a big part of what we do, but it's
running side by side with this huge bank of experience,
of quality of evaluators, excellent evaluators that were around and
work together every day.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Very well said, very well said, And we're fortunate to
have someone like Paul Tudor Jones backing us. We are
going nowhere. We have a really really strong financial backing
with a great amount of experience as you mentioned, and
a ton of passion for doing what we're doing. So again,
thank you for joining us on Summer Scout Deep Dives.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Hey, Thomas, can say one last thing, Yes, you're the
only individual. You're the only individual that is hired me
three times and that is deeply appreciated. I love you
for it and thank you for it.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Much love, brother, Thank you, I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Thank you.
Okay, here we are once again Sumer Scout Deep dives
with today another historical member of the NFL world, and
that is Phil Emory. Phil, I'm so excited about jumping
in on this. I mean, your summer's been good, I
take it.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah, Thomas, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah,
it's been busy and fun and it's good, good time
with family and ready to go with season. As everybody
in the NFL is.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Well, we know this is a little different, right Phil,
when we come into to working at SUMER after many
many years in the NFL. When I said you're an
historical figure in this league, it's because you've been worked
through so many ranks and have done so many different things,
probably like me, very proud of your ascension, being at
every step, right. You didn't just shoot to the top.
(00:52):
You work through it all, which is what we Cleveland
sort of Detroit people like ourselves. There's some blue collar there.
We're out of that, right. So you know, I'd love
to kick this discussion off first, Phlle and you know
my fondness for you. I'm so excited that you were
here with us at Suomer. It's such a big get
for us as we are moving to build this football
operations department and have great scouting eyes like yourself. So
(01:16):
let's talk a little bit about your your upbringing and
you grew up in Detroit, but did you play multiple
sports where you've just focused on football. Let's take it
kind of background up until maybe around college time.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Okay, great, you know, just to go back a little
bit of what you said. Proud of background. So I
still remember Rich McKay, who I've worked for a couple
of times, or you know, he's been in that in
that role where we all worked under him. He told
me once you've been down every rabbit hole there is
in football, and I think that's true. So but I
am proud of that. Grew up born in Detroit, a
(01:54):
hospital that's no longer there, Saint Providence, the original one,
lived in Dearborn from a bit and then was raised
basically in Garden City, Michigan, which is a blue collar town.
Everybody on the streets. Dad worked in one of the
three auto companies, you know, Christler four GM. I don't
think anybody missed in that regard. So it was a
(02:14):
baby boomer generation. Lots of lots of folks in the neighborhood,
lots of children my age, so very competitive fun sports.
Growing up, I did participate in all three sports. Uh,
in terms of what I say three, I threw the
shot in discus, played football, and also played basketball. And
believe it or not, I was my high school center
(02:36):
all of at six foot two, so you know that
was that was a long time ago.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Six What was your weight though, I'm yeah, you.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Know, back then I was like two o five, you know,
so about what I am now? You know that was
my natural weight and you know, really got into strength
training at that time. In high school. My last year,
got very fortunate, got a scholarship small college, Wayne State University,
big university Division two sports. Played college ball there for
(03:05):
four years and started the last three. I loved that experience.
Really developed as time went on, more and more of
a love for football. I really felt I wanted to
coach and teach. When I got out, I got a
degree in teaching physical education. Really wanted to pursue that
at the high school level. Unfortunately, in the state of
(03:26):
Michigan back and back then, you know, the seventy nine
eighty one era, there were no jobs in the state
in physical education. A lot of the teachers were still
quite a bit short of retirement that were in front
of that circle, so there were no jobs opening, so
I decided to go to the coaching route. I became
a student coach there at Wayne State, and then I
(03:48):
was a graduate assistant for Herb Doromedy at Central Michigan
University for a year, and then I went and coached
for two years with a gentleman that was our head
coach at Wayne State. Stated temporarily blocked or dropped the program, Thomas,
so he left. They brought it back under a non scholarship.
After he left, he was at a little school called
(04:10):
Western New Mexico University Harvard on Nihila. I got my
graduate degree there. I coached O line, I was the
equipment manager. We did our own game fields. I was
a hit strength coach. I recruited in New Mexico, West Texas,
all the jcs in Arizona, some of the j seas
(04:30):
in California. So just a great building situation in terms
of personal growth and coaching and having multiple assignments to handle.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
So that's a great point, and we'll talk about this
a little bit more when we talk about the GM role.
You know, in your time during Chicago, I would say
when I look back on my upbringing and being around
football all my life, I was very proud of that,
all the levels that I climbed to get to that spot.
It wasn't it wasn't just handed to me something that
you are very proud of. It helps set the tone
(05:03):
for how you are as a manager and as a
leader and ultimately a general manager. Would you not suggest
that given all the levels that you work through, I
mean you were working on fields like when you came
to the general manager role again we'll talk about it,
you had all of that background in your mind right
how you were going to lead that organization.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Which is a good way, Yeah, to agree with you, Thomas.
It helps you a lot At number one, It helps
you appreciate the roles of others and what they do
for the team. It also gives you a standard that
you're looking for, that you understand what can and can
be done if you've got a strong work ethic and
(05:43):
you goal orientated and organizations goal orientated. So it helps
you a ton that way, and you can come at
it from a perspective when you talk to people in
different roles that you understand because you've been there. You know,
one of my best relationships when I was in Chicago
Bears was with the person that managed our great in
our fields and the stadium grass. And you know, that
(06:04):
was a great relationship because I understood that his role
and I understood what he went through and the trials
and tribulations and how even you know, in that role
there can be a lot of public pressure on the
condition of the grass and pressure from players for practice.
So it was a lot easier to relate to him
having been down or painted those fields and trying to
repair fields at that level. You know, NCA two A
(06:26):
INNAIA Division one. You just did a lot of work
on your own, so it really prepared you for later on.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
As you were you were looking through all that and
working through those early days and being in the collegiate ranks,
when did you start thinking about moving in towards the
NFL And were you thinking coaching? Were you thinking strength
coach or were you thinking player personnel?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Well, I really got fascinated with scouting when I was
a GA at Central Michigan. I was a graduate assistant.
I was an assistant offensive line coach at that time.
I was the second old line coach. You know, I
was put in charge along with the other Gas the
winter program strength program. Really loved it, always loved that
end of it as a player, really got involved in
(07:07):
it at Wayne State and studying not only about you know,
just strength training, but how to do it and how
to organize it, how to do it in groups. So
I always had my eye on scouting. I talked to
a lot of scouts when I was at Central, and
just you know, didn't always run into a bunch in
some of the places I was at, you know, Western
(07:27):
New Mexico, Georgetown College in Kentucky, Saginaw Valley in Michigan,
so that was a little slow in coming. But once
I went to University of Tennessee Thomas, we saw scouts daily,
so I got to ask a lot of questions that
really got to observe their roles and thought, you know, someday,
that's that's the direction I want to go. I would
say that, you know, I loved coaching. I love strength
(07:50):
coaching even more because you were more hands on and
you the players could relate almost directly to you in
terms of you had a feel for their daily improvement
and you could be part of their success that way,
So that's a real feel good. But when it came
to scouting and I knew I had hit the place
where I belonged, I could really focus on a job
(08:11):
in driving towards excellent and it came natural to me
because I had spent my whole career up till that point.
I was sixteen years in at that point of observing
athletic movement. The last eleven is a strength coach, and
as a coach, obviously with a whole line, D line
and just being part of the staff, it's all about
watching tape and analyzing which players can fit what role.
(08:32):
So that I felt that that was the most natural
thing for me in the course of a career.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
So from there, can you speak before we move on
to like your ascension through the NFL ranks and scouting
on the way to the GM role Naval Academy. Can
you talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
Yeah, I got the opportunity to spend eight years there.
Actually was a tenured professor. When I left. I was
the hit strengthen conditioning coach for football, but by title,
I was just strength coach for all sports, numerous sports.
I actually hands on was lacrosse, basketball. At some points,
Women's crew taught classes up to six a week, so
(09:12):
it was a wide encompassing role and it was a
lot of fun in that you developed a relationship with
the athletes and also with the everyday student, the midshipman.
So you really felt part of the total process of
the place of educating young officers for their roles, you know,
as officers in the United States Navy.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
I love that. I mean, obviously there's some great men
through through that, through the Naval Academy and some great
history there back to being an historical figure in our league.
So let's walk through transition and growth in the National
Football League. Got your first job, when and where in
scouting and how you moved through the league.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Yeah, you know, I got a lot of help with that.
I was really trying to break into the combines. Scout
named Andy Dangler, who's with the Oakland Raiders, really tried
to help me. It just wasn't coming at the time.
The director didn't see the transition and understood because he
had a lot of veteran scouts out of work that
he wanted to fill in those roles. But I just
(10:14):
kept plugging in through Andy's help and through Tim Minghey,
who was also another longtime scout in the league historical figure.
We had been together at the University of Tennessee. He
was our recruiting coordinator under Johnny Majors, so he helped me.
He helped me with a friend of his, Bill Reese.
The Chicago Bears got the interview, worked through the process,
(10:36):
and I got the job. I was named the East
Coast Scout, where most beginners in the role at that
time went because there weren't very small staffs back then.
I think I was the fifth full time scout and
we hired Shimmy Schimbecker is our blessed O scout. I
think he was the sixth and there was maybe one
(10:57):
intern at the time, and there was a pro college
director and that was the staff. So the place to
learn was the East because there weren't as many Division
I schools, they allowed for I guess more mistakes Thomas
to put it, you know, to put it in the
right context. But there was a lot to learn. They
really helped me in terms of I had about thirteen
schools on crosschecks that were bigger schools in the Carolina's
(11:19):
in the SEC. So learned a lot that way and
then scout that It was a true mentor to me
in every sense of the word. Bobby Regal, who had
the Southeast, who had a lot of experience, really took
me under his wing and he decided to retire. And
the true story is that Bobby said, Phil, I'm going
(11:40):
to retire. I'm not going to tell anybody. I'm going
to suggest you take the Southeast that you need that
for growth, and I want to work closer to home.
He goes, and when they do that, then I'm going
to retire. So he did that. He did that for me.
He really did something special for me. So I became
the Southeast scout and then the growth really accelerated because
you're watching great football all the time, right You're seeing
(12:02):
the guys that are as close to the level of
the guys that are playing the league as possible at
the top end of the league. So a lot of
growth there that went on for five years. One day
I got to call it was down celebrating my parents'
fiftieth anniversary down on a beach and here in Florida,
and wanted me to interview for a position with Atlanta
(12:24):
Falcons as director of college scouting. It's a very competitive position. Obviously,
I got lucky, got the job and grew from there.
You and I have a you know, crossover path that
you came in at the end of that. I always
feel very fortunate that I was able to stay in
a role in the organization and loved it, and you
(12:46):
yourself helped me, you know. From there, I went to
the Kansas City Chiefs as a director of college scouting
under Scott Pioli. We had a nice little run. We
had tough first year, it was a lot of transition.
The second year we won our won our division, lost
to Baltimore the playoffs, and then the third year was
not as good. You know, we had a coaching change
(13:06):
and there was another transition. And then in two twelve,
at the end of that third year there, I got
a call or started calling and asking some of my
fellow scouts that I coached or scouted with it with
the Bears about the open position there. When when Jerry
Angelo was let go, went through the interview process, I
still remember the most grueling thing I've ever gone through,
(13:27):
you know, one day, last fourteen straight hours of questions.
But at the end of the day, I got the
job and couldn't have been happier, couldn't have been happier
for my family. It was a long journey that lasted
three years, you know, obviously shorter than I wanted it
to last. But when you don't win in the league,
you don't retain your job. It's simple fact. I thought
(13:50):
we had some good picks, you know, Kyle Long, Kyle Fuller,
al Sean Jeffrey. We had some good football players. We
brought in some good players. It just didn't mix. Sometimes
things just don't come together as a team, no matter
the elements, and it didn't. We had a rough year
as lank Go is out of work for year, and
(14:10):
then I got a call from you and I ended
up coming in as a national scout. I was there
in that role for a little while. At the end,
I basically just had an elevated position title. I was
a senior personnel executive my last few years there, the
last two years there after that I retired, and then
(14:31):
this past January I got on with Sooner.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
So I mean, so much to talk about there, and
you know, talking about the ascension towards a GM role,
and you know, very few people get an opportunity to
be a GM and you know, I would put you
right up there with some of the best evaluators out
there and team builders. To your point, sometimes things just
don't come together for some reason. And there are many
reasons we can't talk about here. We won't even go there, right,
(14:56):
I'm talking about organizationally. There are things that happen and
in their nuances and changes. Of course, I having an
opportunity to work with you again on the other side
and bringing you back to Atlanta to work with our group.
I don't know how many times, remember i'd passed you
and and I'm trying to think of had we had
a good group of veteran guys, right, you know, when
we start thinking about those guys, and I would tell
(15:18):
you how important it was for me to spend time
with you guys, even though as you remember, I was
so damn busy in that role U. But to be
around you guys and and talk was a big big thing,
and talk football and really sit in those draft meetings
and discuss football as it should be, not all the
ten other departments that we were responsible for. One of
(15:38):
the things I want to come back to a minute
you mentioned, Bobby Regal, I have a great memory of
Bobby Regal when I was starting out right, those of
us who were younger in the business, was some of
these historical guys. I mean I'm saying we're historical. I'm
talking about some that carried us on their shoulders, right,
Was there anyone else out there? You know, they didn't
have to be from our teams that you just had
a great deal of respect, you know, there were the
(15:59):
there were so many of those old boy scouts that
I just loved. I had such an incredible relationship along
with my dad being on the road. But they were
football dudes through and through. Can you talk a little
bit more about some of those other guys who were
who made impacts on your team building approach but as
well as your leadership and your interactions as you made
(16:19):
your way through the ranks.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Yeah, were there were some veteran scouts. You know, when
I got in the league, I was close to forty
years old, and that was a little bit more common
than not common at that point, you know, where it's
kind of the opposite now a lot of young people
come in as scouting assistants and work their way up.
It's just the reverse of the system. So the VET
(16:43):
Scouts at the time when I was forty, a lot
of them were twenty years older than me. Were Now
those guys would be, you know, forty years older than
the current generation of Scouts. So you know, I had
there was a bunch of sixty year olds in the
league and they're just sitting in a room with them.
Was always because they had such great stories. But they
always had something relative to say that would help you
(17:05):
that day, and they were people that would help you.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
That's a great point where you sit. And just for
the listeners here who don't know, we would sit in
those earlier days. We would sit in you know, rooms
and there might be three or four rooms at the
University of Alabama or Tennessee, some of the big programs,
and you would have a scattering of Scouts. There be
four or five here, four or five here, or sometimes
it would be an entire lecture hall and we would
(17:29):
all be in. There'd be forty of us, right, I'm
talking about the big schools. The funny thing is, remember,
just for a little bit of context, we would walk
in some of us who were younger in the business,
and you'd see some of the older guys, really established
guys and no disrespect to anyone, but everyone had their
personality traits. And you would see someone with a clicker
in the hand and you're like, oh my god, I
need to go to another room because this is going
(17:51):
to be this is going to be like a fast
paced or a slow pace. God blessed and soul. George Sames,
Washington Redskins at the time, right one of the scouts
that we all knew very very very well. I mean
that guy was so fast on the clicker, like if
you weren't on the ball, man you I don't know
how you could even see because he was moving through
(18:13):
it so fast.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
But the point is Ard Thomas is what you're trying
to say.
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, high standard. He was a fun guy to be around.
But there were a lot of those guys. George Sames,
by the way, I remember little story. We could talk
about these all day. We're at the University of Clemson.
I come around the corner and I'm talking to Gary
Wade back in the day, good friend of yours as well,
love Gary as a strength coach. I see, way off
in the distance, I see this guy probably looked fifty
(18:37):
five or sixty five, shirt off on a headstand, hands
headstand doing yoga, and I'm like, what is that person
doing down there? I thought it was a coach. I
get up there, and it's George Sames, one of the
scouts in the NFL, using the weight room to do
shirtless yoga. It was such a great gritory.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Wow, he was a fun I would say, you know,
during that era, you know, Tim was a little older
than me, and he really helped me a great deal
understand how to scout on the road and pro days.
I followed him around like a puppy. Here. I am
forty and he was probably I don't know, maybe forty
eight fifty at the time. But he had such fast
(19:18):
knowledge between his years as a recruiting coordinator and a coach,
and then he had been in the league for a
little while before then, and I really relied on him
and he helped me probably more than any single individual.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
He was so organized, and he's such a good man
as well. I mean, Tim Mingy and those kind of guys. Again,
some were closer to being our peers, some were older,
as you know, and some were younger. And we got
a chance to look at some of the younger people
that were coming in and it was interesting to watch
how they were transitioning and how the league was transitioning, right,
which might lead us eventually into talking about the evolution
(19:52):
of the league where it was fifteen, twenty or thirty
years ago scouting and where it is now. And there
are some adjustment and changes and again nuances to scouting
today that are different. Well, as we transition into talking
about scouting, what I'd be really interested to do is
talk about we're going to talk about tight ends today.
(20:13):
Like I've said to many people on the past pods here,
every NFL scout is adept at a certain level at
evaluating every position. No one is expected to be just
evaluating tight ends or running backs or quarterbacks. We evaluate everyone.
And then on the other side of going out on
the road or if you're a pro scout, especially on
(20:35):
the college side, right, Phil, we would focus on having
a position that we would really focus on as a scout.
Right and in this situation, we want to talk about
you and your focus on tight ends and evaluating tight
ends today. Again, knowing you have knowledge across the board
at so many levels, when you start thinking about evaluating
tight ends, Phil, what is the first thing that you
(20:56):
come into and how do you approach that tight end
or those tight ends that you're looking at as you
begin the process of scouting a tight end.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Yeah, probably, you know, the high weight speed is a
big deal in terms of trying to figure out how
does this guy fit into the skill sets that you're
going to evaluate, you know, because every type of tight
end is a little bit different in terms of what
they bring. You know, you might have a smaller player,
uh for a tight end that might be a you know,
(21:28):
a six two six three and forty five pound guy,
and what you're looking is like, well, he better be
quick and fast and catch well, right, or you have
a really big body tight end and the first thing
you're looking for is maybe that's my why Maybe he's
the blocker right or is he you know, or is
he got a full skill set? So you're looking at
(21:50):
that player and the first glance is how does he fit?
Does he have at least one skill set or a
physical parameter that's going to help you win at the game?
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And Phil, can I just lean in on that because
it's a great way to go. So what you're trying
to do out the gate is differentiate between and you
can do this usually early on right, at least get
an idea. This guy's a why you know, he's more
of a blocking tight end. This guy's an f move
tight end. And the combo, which we know are the
big money guys right that can do both adeptly and
(22:24):
our good sized guys and speed guys. Right, So are
you really approaching it in three different ways to see? Okay,
now that I know where I think this player is,
I'm looking at him from that lens a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah, I'm looking at the perspective of what does he
bring in this great him appropriately? Yeah, there's going to
be certain things that he's not going to do. So
a six foot seven guy that's aggressive and strong and
if he's quick off the ball should be a better
blocker than the six foot three, two hundred and fifty
pound guy, even if he's his quick off the ball
and you know, strong first, So, what does this person
(23:02):
bring And let's not you know, for want for better word,
hammer him for the things he can't do. What can
he do? Let's grade him at that certain level and
let's describe that fit. So if this is a vertical
stretch receiver with size who can catch really well and
he's courageous. Well, then he's got something. So let's we'll
(23:23):
take a look at the blocking, but let's grade it
appropriately and let's not discount him just because he's not
to sixty five or to seventy or to eighty.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
And so we start thinking about tight ends, and let's
let's just start with the idea as well. Evaluating tight
ends is a really interesting position. I liked it as well.
Of course, you know we've also talked on here. There
are certain positions that we like doing because it's what
we played in high school, college or whatever it was. Right,
some people who you know, if they played second in
(23:55):
the second area of corner of safety, are really intrigued
by scouting a lot of O linemen and D lineman
because they've not been in that role, right, they need
to work on the areas that's not as natural to them.
I know personally, I spent a lot of time in
the World League evaluating countless numbers of O line and
I loved it. It was a really cool idea being
involved in an area that you know, that wasn't where
(24:17):
I was, of course taking STAPs. So when when we
start thinking about the tight end position and we think
about your when you're evaluating tight ends, it is a
full time job because you're not only evaluating all of
the run game, you are evaluating the pass game. It's
one of the few positions that you really like on
a receiver. Yes, you are evaluating the pass game. You're
(24:38):
not spending a ton of time on the run game.
The nuance is a blocking right because it's it's not
as expected as much as a tight end. There's a
lot there on that and that in that evaluation.
Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, you're you're you're evaluating his ability to do it
at some spot more. I guess that's what I was
leading into in the beginning, is you know, some guys
might be longer and leaner but really fast. And if
you have a role where he can be an outside
blocker in a run game, almost as a wide out,
(25:08):
then if how well does he do that, Let's not
hammer him because he's not an inline blocker, or can
he be a wing and be a chip guy, or
you know, it's just finding that body type and his
skill sets and finding a right blend for him, and
is there enough of the positives that that's a player
you either want to draft or move forward with in
(25:29):
some way.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
So let's stay on blocking for a minute, and then
we're going to definitely go to the pass element to
this on the blocking side. And I've had countless conversations
and some arguments with some of the past coaches we
had at Atlanta quite honestly in that GM role where
I was knocking my head against the wall because I
was thinking, Look, we're watching video and these players aren't
(25:51):
as tight ends blocking as you we'd expect. We need
to keep that in perspective, right Phil, Just because he's
a bigger guy and or even a move guy and
he's two fifty to fifty five, we're not expecting him
to blow a D lineman off the ball. It's it's
getting positioned, it's having enough enough leverage and agility to
keep your feet, et cetera, et cetera. Talk me through
(26:13):
how you approach blocking evaluation for the tight ends and
what you're expecting out of that role.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
Right Well, you know, you're again you're gonna look at
the size and relative where he's blocking at on the field.
But first, foremost, first step quickness off the ball, because
they've got to establish a position. They're usually if they're
really involved in the run game as such as with
his own stretch. They've got to be able to get
to the outside number or the outside edge of the
(26:41):
defender and secure that in some way. Now, like you said, Thomas,
they're not always going to blow him back and produce
vertical force and vertical room for the back, But can
they establish outside leverage quick enough and have enough length
and strength to at least told the line of scrimmage
to give the back an opportunity while all the other
(27:03):
linemen are running off the ball in his own stretch,
that he can find the correct scene, or he's too
light in the pants, he's not strong enough, or he's
not quick and off the ball and he's getting pushed
back or the defenders penetrating off the snap. So you
just got to establish and as we all do as evaluators,
you're looking at level of ability. It's not like he's
(27:26):
you don't use the words terrible or he's great. It's
what level he is he through a one through ten
scale for us, could be a one nine for somebody else.
It's what level is that you're always keeping your eye on.
You know, don't get cut up cut up in the
he's at the top end. It's Okay, Well what is
top end? Oh that's a ten? Okay? Is that a ten?
(27:48):
Or is that an eight? Or is that a seven?
So you're always trying to equate what you see on
tape with that grade scale because that grade scale is
a system of communication. That's how you establish who that
player is.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
And you made a valid point there. I mean, again,
contingent on whether the guy is a traditional y or
he's a combination guy, or he's a light in the pants,
more move type of tight end. There's varying degrees of
what's expected from us as NFL people to evaluate their
blocking prowess. Right, so you know you're going to expect
that white, white tight end to go out there and
(28:23):
occupy the line much more and move some people off
the ball considerably more than you are on the move guy.
You know the Again, I have always thought, if you
can get that tight end that does both and does
it depinitely enough where where if you let's just say
that that combination guy who is a really good athlete
but also is fifty five and strong and aggressive and
(28:44):
he blocks like a six, but he runs routes and
he's an athlete like an eight man, you got you
have something there, Right, You're not just expecting that combination
tight end to be an eight blocker and an eight
pass receipt. That's very, very rare.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yeah, you would love it, right, that's ultimately what you're
looking at. That's the top of the scale. But you're
looking if a combination of skills. Again, you know what
we talked about, is enough positive that leads you in
a direction that he's got something positive that can help
you win as a team. So, for like, for that
move guy is he has to be able to block
well enough whatever the formation is, whatever role you put him,
(29:24):
whether you put them out all the way out at
X or if you put them in the wing, or
if you move him from the inside and he's a
trap blocker, he has to do that at least at
the enough level, which for us is basically a five
or six, so that when he's in the game, people
don't think he's a pass only guy. They're going to pass, right.
You don't want to give away your offense based on
(29:46):
who's in the game. He has to have enough skill
sets that it's undetermined. Yes, when he's in the game,
he only blocks certain ways that you know they'll get
tendencies on that. But he does block right, and he
might be helping the why they might put two tight
ends to the side, and he's got just enough to
help that bigger tight end to get in a better
leverage position to establish the edge of the offense so
(30:09):
that the back can run past them.
Speaker 1 (30:12):
Another easy segue into what I used to discuss with
Bill Belichick all the time in Scott Pioli and I
know you have with us that tight end. Interestingly enough,
it's you have to have a really good sense for
most teams and most of that position, a football sense
and a football intelligence. You can't have a really challenged
(30:34):
guy at that spot. There's a lot going on in
that tight end spot. Can you comment on that, the
intelligence of that position.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Yeah, they have to be not only a proactive athletes
in terms of what we talk in terms they already
know certain established things and how well and how quick
can they get there, but reactively so if things cross
their face, they have to know whether to take that
player or not take that player move on to the
next level, right, So they have to think on their feet,
especially when they get into the move situations. So in college,
(31:03):
you know, watching this past spring, they're a ton of
offenses in college to put that tight end is the
move receiver, to determine what the defense is in and
to put him in a better position to block or
run route. So they got to be able to think
fast because a lot of times now they're on the move,
whether it's coming from the inside of the formation, is
(31:24):
the fullback or the motion inside tight end, coming from
a wing coming back inside, or all the way across
the formation or all the way out. They have to
be able to react to what they see. So yes,
intelligence is very important.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
So the intelligence of that, you know, being able to
decide on not only the run game, but again the
pass game leads me into pass games. So when you're
talking about running routes, you're talking about catching the ball,
you're talking about ball skills, right tracking the ball when
it's in the air. I go back to someone I
was fortunate enough to be around some really good tight ends,
and the biggest acquisition we ever made in Atlanta, of
(32:00):
you know, was a guy like Tony Gonzalez. Having an
opportunity to see Tony with some great tight ends that
we had in New England, of course, but to watch
Tony Gonzalez and watch what he did for our organization.
How he helped. And I'm a big believer in this,
Phil and I know you are. You get a young
quarterback and you get a high percentage shot to a
tight end who's got these big old hands, probably double
(32:21):
my hand size, and who can run routes and is
aggressive and athletic like Tony was. It was a big
part of Matt Ryan developing. So let's talk route running
on you know, on more of the pure tight end,
so let's call it the combo tight end. Let's talk
about how you start that evaluation. Is it off the
ball as well? The route running right?
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Well, a lot of a lot of times now it's
out of a two point stance. That's you know, the
game has changed that way from beck on the day
and receivers had their hand down on the grounds. They're
coming off the line of scrimmage. So it's about getting
off the ball and it's about finding the cleanest release
as possible. It's having a f agility movement in the
hips and feet together. But I always call it the
(33:04):
body moving in unison. Does everything come together when you step?
Are your hips, knees, feet, hip position in the right
position to keep accelerating forward or is there a lag
or are your hips behind your feet? So can he
move in? Unison is a big thing for a route runner, right,
because they have to get a lot of times the
(33:25):
tight end is dealing with either a larger DN or
an outside linebacker's also an up position. His hands are
free to derail their patterns, So can they maneuver past
them clean release? Can they accelerate downfield and create pressure
on the defense or the defender covering them enough that
he is going to be able to establish separation space,
(33:47):
be able to break, bend his knees, deaccelerate as quick
as possible, redirect whatever direction back downhill to his right
or his left. How quickly does he cut, how does
that look, how fast is it, how coordinated is it?
And how much separation did he actually gain from the
defender that's cut responsible for that area in terms of
(34:11):
spacing or just creating that separation, either with his speed, quickness, size, strength.
You know some of the best guys in terms of
hand to hand inside combat as a tight end or
guys that are really strong and really know how to
push off at the right time. Right, There is an
art and a skill to it and if you see
it and he has it, he has a kN act
for it. That's what you write down. This guy has
(34:33):
a knack for getting away from defenders using his body
and his strength, and he really knows how to set
up in a rebound position right basketball term, he can
really use his hips to ward the defender off and
create catch space. So there's a lot to that route running.
You know, it can be simple things like there's tight
(34:54):
ends in the league that can really hit it vertically
and create the separation that way. They may not even
be the better route runners. They may just be fast.
There's guys that are super quick, quick feet, quick maneuvers.
They set up, they find the defenders, they got quick minds.
They're spacing against some own defenses really fast, and sure
(35:14):
they move when they were quarterback moves to keep that
relative distance away from defenders. There's guys that just deaccelerate fast,
got great body control, come back downhill, make themselves a
big target and catch the ball. So you're looking at
how he runs his routes. What's the skill set this
guy does to get open, Because ultimately is did he
(35:35):
get open no matter the method?
Speaker 1 (35:37):
Well, and that's a great discussion point as well, because
sometimes when people get in and they're the younger scouts,
they're used to watching these really fluid, athletic, explosive receivers, right,
and then they move in and they start evaluating tight ends.
They're not used to seeing the difference, so they're they're
grading more negatively and harder on some of these tight
(35:59):
ends because they're looking for the fluidity and the explosiveness
that they have in some of the receivers. And there
are some more longer levered tight ends. Of course they're
not moving in the same way as that really movement
fluid receiver. So the only point I make there is
the more tight ends that we watch and we can
compare to the better in this position to say like, look,
(36:21):
he still may look a little bit heavy, a legged,
or long levered, but in the scope in the context
of some of the great tight ends, I mean, he
is right up there on that. It's a point that
I always used to make to our scouts. Don't get
caught up thinking, well, this guy doesn't really have the
speed and he's only a four to eighty five, or
(36:42):
you know, we can talk about the requirements there, but
that is something that I think is important because, like
you said, it may not always be the prettiest for
the tight end to get to that spot of being open.
But the guys like I mentioned earlier, Tony Gonzalez and
some of the newer, younger tight ends, they get open.
They may not always look the best and the most
fluid getting open, but they're getting open and they're making
(37:04):
big time plays and they're running after the catch. Do
you want to talk about that next part of it?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
Yeah, you know, going back a little bit to what
we were talking about. You know, ultimately all positions are
this way, but you know, that tight end, especially the
disparity between the sizes and speeds of tight ends and
their roles and what they can help you with when
you struggle. I always go back to this what does
(37:32):
he produce? And if he's a guy that catches, let's say,
in college, twenty balls right for the season, how did
he catch those twenty how did he get open? How
did he create enough space? And how what does he catch?
So if you're ever like lost on what can this
guy do as a route runner, just go back and
(37:53):
look at the actual catch and how that catch was produced.
And it could be simple. It could be Hey, those
are all against zone. This guy's really good at reading
the spacing and sitting down at the right spot. So
he's intelligent. He's an intelligent tight end. He's going to
be smart enough to be a second or a third
guy because he can find a way to get open
(38:15):
against underneath coverage, especially zone. Now type against man, he
might not be able to get away from anybody, and
that might be where you see what you were talking about, Tom.
Somebody's a little clunkier, maybe a little tighter, a little stiffer.
That's not going to fit that role as far as
a separator against man defense. But he can do things.
(38:35):
So you're always looking back at the production and how
is it produced and what against what coverage and what
situation in terms of setting himself up for the catch.
How quick are his eyes in his hands right, that's
ball reaction quickness. How fast can you pick up the ball?
How fast you know? How quickly are his hands and
(38:57):
how soft are they right? And then just the pure
sureness of him. Does he finished catches, how many does
he drop, how many does he catch? How well does
he catch it? You know, back when I was in
Chicago my last go around, we developed scales for just
about everything, and we had a handscale. Okay, A six
was somebody that could catch the ball away from his
(39:19):
body with consistency right, A seven where somebody could catch
it further away from his frame right, and eight was
an extreme reach. It didn't matter what direction. It was
high to the side, lateral catch, low catch below his knees,
where his hands positioned properly when they were below his
waists and above his waist, So that was the left.
(39:39):
And a nine was a spectacular catch against competition. Right,
it was a contested catch no matter how he did it,
but he got hit when he made the catch. Right,
So there were all different levels, and we you know,
just like you always are grading the route, right, you're
always grading the catch the ball skills. And you know
(40:00):
what you do as a scout is if you really
tuned into the player, you're finding ways to make marks
for their production. So that route, hey, that route is
a seven. That next route that was a seven, That
next route was a five, the next route was a six,
And you're looking at the consistency of who this player is.
Within that great scale. All those elements are route running,
(40:20):
catching ball skills, and run after the catch. Some guys
are productive run after catch simply because they're big and
they fall forward. If they do that consistently, they're gaining
two to three yards, you know, just from their height
and their size. Now, how athletic are they? Right? Do
they actually have running skills? Can they actually get away
(40:43):
from somebody either through the use of strength, quickness, maneuverability,
or just pure vertical speed. Really, all receivers, you're looking
for that special guy that secures the catch and his
hips flip vertical upfield as fast as possible. How well
does it do that? You know? I can remember watching
Emmanuel Sanders in college, and that is something that just
(41:05):
clearly stood out. He was gifted at turning up field
as quick as possible after the catch and getting vertical.
He never took a negative step or sideway step. That
foot always and those hips always got turned up field.
He was well coached and he was natural at it.
So you're always looking for the little things to make
the separation points in players and levels of players.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
That's a great assessment and approach to, you know, putting
it all together, because there's I mean, in my mind,
it is such an important position. As we've mentioned before.
It's a great transition position to have again one, two,
or even three legitimates. I mean Bill Belichick did that
of course with Tom Brady, right. I mean I would
(41:48):
say that if I were to be coming in with
any young quarterback, I'd say this to any young general manager.
You make sure that you have your proper stall of
tight ends who can work at a lot of different levels.
Because again, high percentage shot takes the pressure off of
the quarterback to be tossing the ball deep or deep
balls or deep routes. It's to me, it's just a
(42:10):
really good, uh and effective position to have on your
roster and not just like eking it out right, I
have a couple of so called like midliners in today's world.
I don't think you can do that personally, if I
before we go on and finish this, when you go
on as a scout evaluating tight ends, and I hate
(42:32):
to put you on the spot here because a lot
of people ask these questions to us as former whereas
scouts and formal former gms, what person at that position
at that tight end position or two or three do
you use as a gauge? Do you use an old schooler?
Do you use like a Do you use someone that's, hey,
they've been in it five years? Do you in fact
(42:53):
use you know, young guys, how are you comparing the
tight ends that you are looking at?
Speaker 2 (43:00):
You know, as a former detroiter, I'm gonna say, well, yeah,
they got to be better than Charlie Sanders, Right, that's
a long time ago times. So I say that jokingly.
You know, you look at the historics of the position, certainly,
but you know, as this game has moved on, it's
only gotten faster, right, It's only gotten more athletic. It's
(43:23):
only the ball's coming at him a little quicker. The
ball's coming at a little faster. The defenses are more complex.
They got to think faster. But when you watch somebody
like Kelsey, I mean, you know, he might be slowing
down a little bit. It's not It's hard to tell, right,
I mean, he's he's still catching a lot of balls.
He's had, you know a number of years, over one
(43:44):
hundred catches, I believe. So he separates himself and his
ability to get open. You know, are you saying, hey,
he's the best vertical tight end ever? No, not necessarily,
But I'll tell you one thing. He's probably the best
receiver at that position ever in terms of getting open
again multiple types of defenses and multiple double and triple coverages.
(44:06):
He really separates himself from all the other tight ends
in the game in that way.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Well, that's a great example of a guy to follow.
And again, we talk all the time about comparatives in
this league, and we talk about scouting. I mean, that's
what's so ingrained in our mind, right, Phil. We need
to stack when we're stacked, busting, when we're setting up
our board, massaging our board. Again as a GM, as
a personnel director, or even as a scout when you're
just looking at a position grouping, we're always trying to
(44:33):
compare and juxtaposed, which I think is vital if you
don't do that. It was one of the things I
did learn from you know, Scott Pioli and Bill Belichick, Right,
we all know this. You need to know the team
that you are you working for. You need to know
them inside out, right. We need to know the talent
that we are grading against, which is important, which is
(44:53):
a little different for summer sports, as you know, because
somer sports we're grading ultimately for the league here, it's
a little bit different, but we are grading, keeping everything
in perspective, and we definitely are comparing the top to
the middle to the lower levels out there. I would
just say this, Phil like a massive respect and appreciation
for you at so many levels personally and of course professionally.
(45:16):
I am so glad and thrilled that you're working with us.
You are such an important part of what we're doing here.
Your insight is fantastic. I look back and I think
of and this is my pitch at Sumer. Right, I
think out there and I think about these other third
parties out there, and there are some good ones people
that you have been you and I have been involved
with right and companies that we have a great deal
of respect for, and I will never lose the respect
(45:38):
for them. That said, what we're doing at Suomer, with
this collection of very very talented football men with really
adept ability to scout in eyes, to me, it's it's
second to none out there because we have over five
hundred years of experience with people like yourself. I just
think it is it is so valuable to have this
(46:00):
group of people coming together and talk about, you know,
the evaluation of players and positions, not only in the
NCAA but in the NFL as well. So thank you
so much for joining.
Speaker 2 (46:10):
I really appreciate it. Tom. So I'll say a couple
of things here at the end. You know, Jerry Angelo
always used to say when worked Underman Chicago, and he
taught me so much about scouting. You talk about a
veteran that helped me in terms of being your boss.
You know, he forced us to do all of our
own tape breakdown every year and do really the entire
(46:31):
class of the team that you were in and put
their good and bad plays on tape as soon as
they started producing at enough level that you knew they
were going to be a player at some level in
the league. So that meticulous work really helped me grow
as a scout. And I know all the scouts that
I was with, but Jerry always used to say, you know,
(46:52):
this is where experience. What you're talking about in terms
of experience and knowing what you're looking at and knowing
how to compare it and grade it appropriately to get
the right grade on the player for the league. For
sumer for presenting the players to the teams that we
work with is if he doesn't remind you of something
(47:14):
or some aspect of another player, he's probably not a
really good player. But that's a bank right that you
collect as a individual evaluator. And what's your bank right?
Is that bank forty years of athletics, you know, we
have several of those people in our organization or is
it a few years of experience, which so your bank
(47:36):
is going to determine kind of your hit rate and
your ability as an evaluator over the time you have
to build that. It takes a little time, right. Fortunately,
I was in a background that I was involved in
athletics a long time before I started scouting, when I
was you know, thirty nine to forty years age. But
that bank really matters, and that's what we have. Not
only do we have all the analytics behind right that
(48:01):
are a big part of what we do, but it's
running side by side with this huge bank of experience,
of quality of evaluators, excellent evaluators that were around and
work together every day.
Speaker 1 (48:13):
Very well said, very well said, And we're fortunate to
have someone like Paul Tudor Jones backing us. We are
going nowhere. We have a really really strong financial backing
with a great amount of experience as you mentioned, and
a ton of passion for doing what we're doing. So again,
thank you for joining us on Summer Scout Deep Dives.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Hey, Thomas, can say one last thing, Yes, you're the
only individual. You're the only individual that is hired me
three times and that is deeply appreciated. I love you
for it and thank you for it.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
Much love, brother, Thank you, I appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Thank you.
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