August 21, 2024 • 37 mins
BIO: Mark Moyar, author of Masters of Corruption: How the Federal Bureaucracy Sabotaged the Trump Presidency, holds the William P. Harris Chair in Military History at Hillsdale College. His past academic appointments include the Kim T. Adamson Chair of Insurgency and Terrorism at the U.S. Marine Corps University and fellowships at the Joint Special Operations University and Texas A&M University. During the Trump administration, he served in the U.S. Agency for International Development as the director of the Office of Civilian-Military Cooperation. The author of six previous books on military history, diplomatic history, grand strategy, leadership, and international development, he has also written articles for the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal, and many other publications. The first volume of his Vietnam War trilogy, Triumph Forsaken: The Vietnam War, 1954–1965, was published in 2006, and it became the subject of an essay collection entitled Triumph Revisited: Historians Battle for the Vietnam War. He received a BA summa cum laude from Harvard University and a PhD from the University of Cambridge
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Warning the following podcast might be too truthful for most liberals.
Listener discretion is therefore advised. Welcome to the Tea Party
Power Hour. I am your host, Mark Gallarmi. Special guest
today is mister Mark Moyer. He's almost kind of become
(00:25):
the poster boy for the fight between Trump appointees and
the resistance, and we're going to get into that in
just a minute. But he has a very impressive background.
He received a BA Sue mccum laud from Harvard University
and a PhD from the University of Cambridge, and he
eventually found himself appointed to a position in the Trump administration.
(00:50):
And he's going to tell us all about that because
that's really the focus of what this book is about. Mark,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hey, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I don't know if I overstated that or not, but
it sounds to me like your battle is a battle
in the overall war between political appointees and entrenched bureaucrats
when the Republicans are in power. Now, if you look
at when the Democrats are in power, it's probably one
big love fest because they're all Democrats. But when Republicans
(01:25):
are in power and a Republican president makes his appointees,
it seems to me that there's a war that sues
shortly thereafter. Am I correct, Yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It's you know, in the twenty sixteen, ninety five percent
of the political donations from the federal bureaucracy went to
the Hillary Clinton campaign, and so we know that clearly
the bureaucracy was on the side of one political side here,
and that played out throughout the Trump administration, and you had,
(01:59):
you know, some of the bureaucrats knew that they were
supposed to.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Follow orders from the.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Political appointees, but there were a great amount of subversions.
So that's a lot of what the book is about
is about how these career bureaucrats resisted what the White
House was trying to do.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Well. I think one of the problems they had with
you going in is that you were an honest guy
and you weren't going to tolerate any corruption on your watch.
And I think, if I'm reading the book correctly, the
reason they disliked you so much is because you got
rid of some people who were corrupt.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I found out pretty early on that one of my
own subordinates was engaged in a criminal conflict of interest
in using his government job to get business for a
private company in which he was actually the chairman of
the board of directors. And so I took this to
higher authorities, and the first discourage sign was that they said, well,
(03:01):
you know, yeah, this is good.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You want to do something about this.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Most of the time people just don't say anything about
these sorts of things. And you know, I didn't fully
at the time appreciate exactly why that was, but certainly
part of it is that there's great resistance that comes
into play.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And so after I.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Reported this individual for corruption and a few others, they
came after me. And that's, unfortunately what discourages so many
people from doing this. And I'm hoping with the book
to raise awareness so that this kind of thing doesn't
play out again.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You know, it seems to me that it's not just
true in government, but in life. The people who hold
the power within corporations, for example, are oftentimes corrupt. I
can tell you why I was telling you before we
came on how much I love the book. In my
life and I'm sixty one, three times I've either been
fired or pushed out of a job for being honest,
(04:00):
either a superior telling me to lie on a report
and I said I wouldn't do it, or me turning
in somebody else within the organization who was breaking the law.
But I have been forced out or fired from three
positions in my life because I was honest. And it
just seems to me that so many people have a
attitude of well, I'll just you know, play along to
(04:23):
get along, and they look the other way on this stuff.
But if you're honest, I mean, life can be hard.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
And you know, in the government, it's you know, especially
troubling because we're talking about people who are supposed to
be in the public trust and they've been empowered to
do things on behalf of the people, and it is
shocking that there are this many.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Corrupt people.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
And part of the problem too, you have, is that
the federal government is concentrated in the swamp, as we know,
at the Nash Capital Region, and a lot of people
become wedded to the swamp and they find that it
has its perks and pluses, and so once you're tied
to something like that, and it becomes very hard for
(05:14):
you to resist stand up for things because people get
afraid they're going to run into trouble.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So you know, I always tell people, if you're going
to go into government.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
You've got to have an exit plan, because you don't
want to be in a position where you are basically
going to have to go along with whatever sort of
terrible things go on.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
When I introduced you, I hope I mentioned the Masters
of Corruption. That's the book we're talking about today, Masters
of Corruption, how the federal bureaucracy sabotage the Trump presidency.
But the trouble that you got into through no fault
of your own, was actually about a previous book called
a Pose Any Foe. When did you find out that
(05:57):
Oppose any Foe was going to be a problem and
they were going to try to use that to get
rid of you because they didn't like honest Trump appointees
like you telling them what to do.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, that happened in May twenty nineteen. I joined the
pre administration February of twenty eighteen. But this highlights another
nefarious part of the government, which is the so called
pre public publication review process, which they had required me
to sign a non disclosure agreement that gave them thirty
(06:28):
days to review any publications, and so I had submitted
it many months before the book came out, and they
kept saying, well, we're kind of too busy, so we
need more time. And after many many instances of that,
I invoked something that's in a federal regulation that I
basically said, you know, you have another thirty days to
(06:51):
file court injunction if you want to stop publishing me
publishing this.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But you haven't told me anything.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
And they never did say there's nothing in here you
can't publish, so they didn't do any take any court action.
And the book came out and nobody said, oh, there's
terrible secrets in here. And not until two years after
the book is out does somebody suddenly claim that the
book contains classified information. And we've since this hapn't fought
(07:20):
more than five years ago, the government is still refusing
to say what what actually supposed to period was in it.
Actually have a lawsuit that's been going on for several
years to uncover that.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Wow, it's and by the way, we do want to
say for the audience that everything in your book was
already in the public domain and there was no spilling
of secrets. And there's also this mysterious two star general.
Did we ever find out if that was son Tag
or not?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
That part of it is still also a mystery, and
I think there's been some new press digging as a
result of the book and the legal actions.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well hopefully.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I'm up with that, because again, the two stary general
suddenly claims that I had published classified information, and you
process would say, they're supposed to tell you what you're
accused of and who accused you, but they used various
administrative actions to try to prevent that from happening. So
the guy who actually got me fired has still been
(08:26):
hiding behind this shield anonymity, which hopefully we'll eventually get
to the bottom up.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Well, I hope you do too, because this person deserves
to be held accountable, to say the least. You know,
as I read the book, and I'm sure it's more
frustrating for you because it's your life, but it was
frustrating because we're so many times that I thought, Okay,
Mark's going to be vindicated now, and in fact, at
one point you were, and then they took it back
(08:52):
whenever you said got involved and you know, said hey,
are you sure you want to do this or something
of that effect. So what was that like? Living through that?
It seems like, you know, every time, you know, it's
almost like Gilligan's Island, you know, and every every time,
every week, you thought he was going to get off
the island and that he didn't. You know, every chapter,
I thought you were going to be vindicated and then
(09:14):
you weren't. I hope the I hope the Gilligan's Island reference,
Uh is a too low level for you. But you
did mention Roscoe Peak coultry in your book, so I
thought maybe Gilligan's Island would be fair game too.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yes, yeah, it is. Uh, it can be very trying.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I mean, you know, the there's a high rate of
mental illness among people who are the victims of whistleblow retaliation.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
You know, I I you think I was able to
stand it because of you having a supportive family, and
you also had spent a lot of time reflecting and
thinking and building a space.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Uh. You know.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I think you know a lot of people, you know
who don't have.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Some faith in some higher authority.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
They're particularly vulnerable because they don't have some kind of
anchor that they can look on, and they haven't prepared
themselves mentally for the kind of anguish that you can experience.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Do you do you sort of see this as being
part of the overall law fair that they've used to
go after Trump. And as you noted in the book,
revoking of security clearance went way way up when Trump
was in office. So it just sounds like this is
almost kind of a coordinated effort, or at least a
go to plan to get rid of people that were
(10:35):
Trump appointees that they didn't like me. Is this part
of the overall law fair?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yeah, it is part of you know, in what's now
being called by Jim jordanother's weaponization, where they're basically using
things that are supposed to be you know, to punish
the bad guys are instead of being used to punish
political opponents. And we saw that with there's number of
(11:00):
other Trump appointees, Adam Levenger, Michael Ellis, Katie Arrington, who
you know, all our attacks on these spurious grounds, and
of course they also try to hide what the actual
information is. You know, security clearance process is more prone
to abuse because it's harder to exercise your rights. And
(11:21):
it said even finally when we did work to a
point where we can say, clearly, here's you know, the
government rules say you've got to turnovers information. They simply
ignored it and we had to go to court and
we're still in court trying to get them to follow
their own rules.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I have a question. If that book of yours was
so evil and contain so many secrets, classified secrets on
the part of the United States, why did they let
you sell it? Why did you know, I mean, why
didn't they look at it back when you submitted it
for the review and say, wow, this has a lot
(11:59):
of government secret. We're sorry, Mark, we can't let you
put this out on the market. But they did it.
Don't seem to have any problem they would they wait
two years to tell you something.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yes, yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Well that's you know, indicative of what a sham this
whole thing is, is that, you know, if I had
actually published secrets as this one individual claimed, I would.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
You know be in jail. Men, that's a felony offense. Uh.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
And so you know they used this shitkaner with my
security clearance to get me fired. But you know, had
I actually done what I was accused of doing, they
they would have prosecuted me. And there was never any
effort to prosecute me by the Department of Justice.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Now, in the beginning, they tried to keep you from
getting it in the first place. I believe you said,
didn't turn it into the CIA, And when they were
called out on it, they said, well, we don't reprove
that the CIA does. But they were the ones who
took so much time even submitting that to the CIA.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yes, there they are all sorts of you know, obstruse procedures,
and a big part of the problem for political pointe
is is you don't understand how all of these processes work,
especially early on, and so they can run circles around you.
And that's one of the big problems that I think
(13:21):
hopefully can be overcome this time with the second Trump administration,
is that people are more aware of this, and there's
already a number of efforts to prepare political appointees. Because
when I was hired, and by this point Trump had
been in office for a year, there were still no
orientation that kind of teach you the ropes and watch
out for these people what you need to do if
(13:43):
this happens to you.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
You say in the book that you believe Americans need
to talk to each other more about corruption. Is it
possible that the average everyday American like me is just
kind of given up and accepted that this type of
from all activity, this type of corruption is just part
and parcel to Washington, d c. And it's never going
to change. I mean, I'm sure we have the wrong attitude,
(14:08):
but I mean you look at Washington and you just say,
stuff goes on every day. It's a you know, politics
is a is a blood sport. So I mean, you
say we should be talking about it more. But do
you think most of us have just given it to
the point where we're apathetic.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I think there is a lot of apathy and it's
been frustrating. And continue to see this with the you
know Biden administration. I mean, what's going on with Hunter
Biden and is an ability to dodge a lot of
the charges against him. And you finally do have some
Republicans in Congress who have been on the case and
(14:43):
forcing some things to happen.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And so I think.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
People shouldn't lose all of because you have, you know,
these members of Congress, some of whom you know a
lot of the members of Congress that don't care enough,
but some of them do and they're doing things, and
I'll think also the selection will be important.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
You know, Trump promised to drain the swamp and he
had some success on that. As I say in.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
The book, they weren't fully prepared to deal with the
swamp because they didn't have enough experience dealing with it.
And so part with this book shows is how do
you actually stop some of the corruption the second time around?
And a lot of that has to do with getting
the right people, because, as I point out to you,
one of the most corrupt people who helped bring me
(15:31):
down was actually a political appointee who never should have
been chosen in the first place. And she was married
to the top lobbyist for our own agencies contractors, which
is about as corrupt as you could possibly imagine.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Let me jump in on that. When you say this
is a corrupt situation. This guy represented people who collectively
received billions of dollars in bids from the your organization
in which this person worked and was a high level
of what was she the number two person?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yes, that's right, she was the you know, the number
two person in the agency. Bonnie Glick is married to
the guy who's the top lobbyist for the agency's contractors,
and you know, the people at the time were saying,
this is outrageous, how could you possibly allow this? And
we know now that there was a crooked lawyer within
(16:28):
the agency who tolerated this, and he was also actually involved.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
In a lot of other bad business. But clearly.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
There was not enough effort initially or time given to
finding the right people. And we have seen in the
last three and a half years that the Trump campaign
and also various other outset organizations have been identifying how
we actually get the kind of people you need who
are going to stand up for the corruption and are
not going to simply let the bureaucrats do what they
(16:59):
want to do, because that's what the bureaucrats want, is
that basically the political appointees will just go along with
whatever they say, and that's have the least resistance. So
you you have to have people who are willing to
stand up to their coruption and also don't care what
the press says, because the press will attack people, you know,
especially if they're trumpetpointees.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Oh yeah, that's their favorite hobby is attacking Trump appointees.
I gather that most of the people they are these
permanent bureaucrats in Washington, that their salary is just kind
of the tip of the iceberg as far as what
they make when they're in Washington, because it's it's starting
(17:39):
to sound like they all have a little side gig
going on that isn't necessarily legal. I mean, is there
a ton of that going on there where everybody's got
some kind of connection or they're already working for the
for the contractor they're going to get a job with
when they get out.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, well, I would say it's certainly not all the bureaucrats.
You know, there's a fairly limited number of them who
have control over the money, and so a lot of
them are, you know, especially at the more senior levels,
they're involved in steering contracts. Uh. You know, people say, well,
you know, we don't see people. You know, you can't
(18:18):
just take money out of the government account sticking in
your pocket.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You generally can't do that.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
But there's lots of ways, and especially in the in
the world of contract and there's these huge contracts, people
will steer them to friends or someone will pay them
kickbacks and uh. And there's also another thing that happens
commonly is they'll.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Uh, you know, they'll give.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
The contract, will do a favor for someone in the government,
and then they'll hire them subsequently at a high salary.
We see a lot of that as well.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, I assumed you did. I mean, it's just absolutely
pathetic what goes on, and how so many people are
just accustomed to looking the other way on it. You weren't.
That's very much to your credit, and we need more
honest people like you in Washington. Now let me move
forward here. This is a question that I almost didn't ask,
(19:12):
but if Trump were re elected, would you consider going
back into that swamp and continuing to fight if you
get your security clearance back.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, you could never say no to an important opportunity
like that. I was fortunate after leaving the government to
get a job as a professor at Hillsdale College, which is.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Very important into building the next generation.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
And so right now I'm just enjoying that because so
many of our colleges and universities have abandoned the traditional
mission mission of preparing young people for life in a
substantive way, and.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So you never know what the future holds.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Well, we need people like you. But based on what
you've been through, I think it would be selfish to
ask you to head right back in there. We need
to take a quick break, do a little business with America,
and we will be right back with mister Mark Moyer,
the author of Masters of Corruption, How the Federal Bureaucracy
sabotaged the Trump Presidency. And we are back with Mark Moyer,
(20:47):
the author of Masters of Corruption, How the Federal bureaucracy
sabotaged the Trump Presidency. And speaking of Trump, how aware
do you think he is of your particular situation.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know all the
precise details. I believe he has some awareness of it
and others around him, and I'm hoping that you know,
of course, I'm far from the only case of people
(21:20):
who were in the Trump administration who have been attacked
by this weaponization process.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So I do hope if he is elected that they.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Will dig in and start using the Justice Department's Office
of Inspectors General to actually find out what's happened, because
that's part of the problem is that, you know, there's
also supposed to be these watchdogs to prevent this sort
of stuff from happening, but they're also co opted by
(21:51):
some of the bad actors, and so I do think
if the Trump administration has the opportunity, they will do something.
I mean, we did try to appeal to people in
the Biden administration, and particularly Samantha Power, who is the
head of the agency where I used to work, and
you may recall her as the woman who was unmasking
General Slid among other things. And so Senator Charles Grassley
(22:14):
had gone to her and asked her to to provide
some information on the case, and she just refused to
do anything. So I don't see the Democrats doing anything
to help people like me. But I do think if
the Republicans regained the White House, then we will see
some action.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well that's good, and I, like everyone else up crossing
my fingers and hope that Trump wins against Kamala Harris
or Kamela Harris. I don't want to be accused of
being racist. But at the same time, I mean, who
knows if she'll even be the candidate seriously depends on
what the polls are. I will guarantee you if if
Biden had a sufficient lead over excuse me, if Trump.
(22:58):
Let me reverse that, if Biden had a sufficient lead
over Donald Trump, they would have never admitted that he's
lost a few of his marbles and that he wasn't
fit to go on. I mean they they've been masking
that for three and a half years with no problem.
All of a sudden, it looks like Trump might have
a shot at winning, and oh my god, what happened
to Joe? Joe's not his old self.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Well, I mean, yeah, yeah, Well, the media has been
incredibly dishonest, and it was weird. Suddenly after that debate,
the media is suddenly reporting on all this bad stuff
and the Biden administration that it had been ignoring for uh,
you know, for years, and then and then this once,
(23:39):
once kamala Is has a nomination, there back to their
usual thing of let's not report anything bad about the Democrats.
So it's amazing to watch what how the mainstream media
has ignored her many scandals and her all the crazy
things that she has said, and her general unpopularity.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think it's interesting that it was so easy for
the entrenched bureaucrats to mess with your security clearance. First
they delayed it by not turning in the application. Then
they came after you on completely false grounds, saying that
you had released secrets in your earlier book. But then
(24:22):
when President Trump tried to get rid of John Brennan's
security clearance, I mean, I still don't know if that's
happened successfully. I still don't know if anyone ever followed that,
or if the resistance just said no, we're not going
to do that. Do you know what the update is
on John Brennan and whether you've lost it.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I don't think he ever did. And he's a great example.
And he himself, when he was a director to CI
was pulling removing the security clearances of people who witnessed
ben Ghazi debacle because they were not going along with
the party line as to what happened. But yeah, he's
(25:00):
he's among the worst of the worst, and and he
has said things that you should have had it should
have resulted in his clearance getting revoked. But uh, you know,
I don't know all the details that case, but I'm
guessing what happened. Which has happens which is common is
that people say, well, you know, this is really complicated,
it's going to take a long review, and you know,
(25:21):
just string things out until you know the end of
the administration and the Democrats come in.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely amazing that with all the reasons
to take away John Brown security clearance, as it sounds
that never happened. And in your case, you know, they
delay it, then they take it away, and then they
give it. Then the d O D. I guess, uh,
I agreed to bring you back on and then you said,
contacted the d O D. And then they decided to
(25:47):
review it a second time. I mean, it just the
whole the whole thing is just nonsense, and it leaves
the average everyday American like myself, just wondering, I mean,
what is the what is the limit on this corruption?
I'm watching how they're not just prosecuting but persecuting Trump
and throwing laws out the window and making up laws
(26:08):
and extending the statutes of limitation and all the different
things that they're doing to him, claiming Mary Lago is
only worth eighteen million, you know, in civil court the
Egene Carol case, which is basically he said, she said
type situation. I mean, the woman I'm going to stop
(26:29):
short of diagnosing her psychologically, but she seems, you know,
she was flirting with Anderson Cooper when she was telling
this gut wrenching story of how Trump raped her in
a closet in a department store, and by the way,
the whole thing was ripped out of an episode of
Law and Order, same department store, same location within the
department store. Then you know, she's telling us what should
(26:51):
have been a gut wrenching story to Anderson Cooper, and
she's flirting with him while she does it. She has
written all kind of crazy stuff in her articles, and
in fact, she's so focused on sex she has a
cat named Vagina T Fireball, Okay, And this is the
woman who's being believed over President Trump in this case.
(27:14):
So it just seems to me that when you look
at how they can even push around people like yourself
and more powerful and extremely wealthy people like Donald Trump,
the average everyday guy doesn't have a chance. If they
can do this to people like you and people like
Donald Trump, they can do it any of us. And
so a lot of us do kind of feel like, maybe,
(27:35):
and I'm not following this for very well, but you
should just kind of keep your head down low and
ignore everything and keep your mouth shut and stay out
of trouble. I mean, it certainly is. We've watched all
of this unfold, the messages that you know, there's not
a whole lot of justice going on at the Department
of Justice.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, I think a big part of the problem is
the people who are put in charge of these federal agencies.
And in my agency that our number two version was
just corrupt. The top person was ineffective. And we saw
this in other places like the State Department with Rex Tillerson,
(28:15):
the Department of Defense with James Mattis, that they didn't
have people there who were really committed to getting things
done that the White House want to do and stopping
at bureaucracy from doing bad things. That we did have
some other cabinet heads David Bernhardt at Interior perhaps the
best example, who were there who were really organized and
(28:37):
motivated and actually compel the bureaucracy to do what was
supposed to do and didn't put up with the corruption.
And so that's what really needs to be done, because
the President himself.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Cannot be running.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
These agencies, and that's what he has these cabinet officials
for in the agency heads. And so if you have
the right agency heads, you can do a lot. You know,
there's still gonna be some resistance, but a great amount
can be done in it. But it was the fact that,
certainly my agency, that you had leaders political appointees who
(29:12):
were afraid or just unwilling to confront the bureaucracy because
they had other things to worry about, like what's their
next job going to be?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Or is avoiding being attacked in the media.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
You mentioned in the book, and by the way, you
went through a living hell. And as if all this
weren't enough, your son Trent was diagnosed with cancer. How's
he doing now.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yeah, well he's fortunately, he's he's doing better he had.
You know, he came back a few times, but he's
been able to get back to college after lengthy absence.
But yeah, that was certainly a very trying time in
our lives and just happen to coincide with all the
crazy things that were going on.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, I'm going to ask my listeners to pray for
Trent and that he continue to improve and that your
life continues to improve as well. You're at Hillsdale right now,
which is a great place for any conservative to be.
Are you going to stick with Hillsdale for a while
or what's on the horizon for Mark?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yes, sir, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the plan.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
We really Hillsdale College, and it's a great community, great students,
and under our current president, Larry arn it's really become
an elite educational institution and.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
In some respects is a place where we are going
to be.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Training the leaders of our future, because the way we've
seen in other institutions, the faculty is pretty much one
hundred percent left wing now and they crenate students, and
so it's going to be these other institutions like Hillsdale
that increasingly, I think we're depending on to produce the
(31:02):
kind of leaders that the country really needs.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I again, spend some time at the Texas A and M.
Bush School. I think coming in you thought, oh, it's
named after a Republican president, there is gonna be like
conservatives there, and it didn't exactly turn out that way.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It's uh, that's again for those who are familiar with
the academia, it's probably not too surprising.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
But you know, even these places.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
That are supposedly seen as sort of conservative institutions are
dominated by the left, and the left has been very effective.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
They also now since they control most of the elite universities,
they then control who who will get a graduate degree,
get a PhD, and go on to teach.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
And certainly my feel of history nowadays, if you want.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
To get an academic job, you have to specialize in
the race, class, and gender or even studies. And if
you don't do that, so you know, just by that alone,
they're able to perpetuate this radical ideology in the faculty.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, and it's been kind of weird because I'm actually
talking to you about six miles from Texas A and
M right now, maybe a little less. And I grew
up here, and so I have watched the university change
over the years, you know, when I was at A
and M. And I'm basically summarizing these statistics, but you
(32:30):
probably had hundreds of people, maybe like twelve hundred people
that were Young Republicans Club and maybe fifty people in
the Young Democrats Club. And I think that if you
go there now, that's probably worst. So you know, we've
had Antifa, I don't call them rallies, they weren't riots,
(32:53):
but on campus we've had BLM protesting there, and it's
just it's just different. It's just very, very different than
whenever Texas A and M was it all military school
or even in the years, the decades that came immediately
after that, and now you know it's it's just like
any other any other university. One more, very very important
(33:19):
question for you, Mark, How can people get a hold
of a copy of your book?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yeah, they can get it through Amazon dot com and
you know other bookstores Barnes and Noble, local bookstores, and
there's also an audio version at audible dot com and
there's a Kindle version.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, and don't forget the the original, not the original.
You've written many books, but the book opposed any Foe
is still out there too, and that's the book that
this book is kind of written about.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I just thought of one last question. How long did
it take you to get this book approved to go out? Well?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
This one? Yeah, that was interesting because it can after
my last experience and knowing that there wasn't classified information
in it, I wasn't even sure if I was going
to submit it, but my lawyer advised me to do so.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
And again they're supposed to have thirty days. They took
you know, six.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Months or so, and then finally I sued them this
time because that was again the lawyer's recommendation, just so
they couldn't pull any stunts.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And then as soon as we sued.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Them, they came back and said, oh, you know what,
we just approved your book, and actually we approved it
right before you file the suits, so we don't owe
you any legal fees. So it was just another instance
of bad faith and duplicity.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
But yeah, they.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Didn't after they finally did you know, did not actually
say there was anything we couldn't publish in it.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Wow. And I had Cash battil on at one point,
and I believe he had to sue to get government
gangsters out as well. You know, there's a lot of
that going on. They don't want anyone publishing books that
might say something bad about them. So but once again, Mark,
thank you for being on the show. I love the book.
Finished it last night. There's a whole lot of stuff
(35:04):
in there people need to see. When people think of
the resistance, they think of it being the resistance versus
Donald Trump. But it was really the resistance versus Donald
Trump and anyone he appointed. And you guys were, you know,
fighting a battle that a lot of people I don't
even think we're aware of. So this is a very
very important book. I know we haven't had the happy ending.
(35:28):
We went yet, but maybe with the changing of the
guards in November, we might get that at some point.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yes, I hope so. And I can't say. One of
the worst offenders in the bureaucracy mentioned in the book, Rob.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Jenkins, actually got kicked out of the agency as a
result of the book's publication.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So we have scored one victory already, and hopefully there'll
be more to come.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's one happy ending. My goodness, why goodness. And I
read that book and every time that guy's name came up,
I was like, why doesn't somebody do something about this? So,
but at any rate, I don't know. We've given away
a lot, but we certainly haven't given it all away.
So if you want to know the rest of the story,
pick up a copy of Mark Moyer's book and he
(36:16):
is going to tell you, or he's where he will
tell you from his own personal experience about the masters
of corruption. And trust me, they are masters of corruption.
They are there. This is real. Mark. Thank you for
being on the show.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, thanks so much for having great talking with you.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Absolutely, thank you. Have a great day, all right, you
two
Speaker 3 (37:20):
You've been listening to the Tea Party Power Hour with
Mark Gullar
Warning the following podcast might be too truthful for most liberals.
Listener discretion is therefore advised. Welcome to the Tea Party
Power Hour. I am your host, Mark Gallarmi. Special guest
today is mister Mark Moyer. He's almost kind of become
(00:25):
the poster boy for the fight between Trump appointees and
the resistance, and we're going to get into that in
just a minute. But he has a very impressive background.
He received a BA Sue mccum laud from Harvard University
and a PhD from the University of Cambridge, and he
eventually found himself appointed to a position in the Trump administration.
(00:50):
And he's going to tell us all about that because
that's really the focus of what this book is about. Mark,
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hey, it's great to be with you.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I don't know if I overstated that or not, but
it sounds to me like your battle is a battle
in the overall war between political appointees and entrenched bureaucrats
when the Republicans are in power. Now, if you look
at when the Democrats are in power, it's probably one
big love fest because they're all Democrats. But when Republicans
(01:25):
are in power and a Republican president makes his appointees,
it seems to me that there's a war that sues
shortly thereafter. Am I correct, Yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
It's you know, in the twenty sixteen, ninety five percent
of the political donations from the federal bureaucracy went to
the Hillary Clinton campaign, and so we know that clearly
the bureaucracy was on the side of one political side here,
and that played out throughout the Trump administration, and you had,
(01:59):
you know, some of the bureaucrats knew that they were
supposed to.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Follow orders from the.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Political appointees, but there were a great amount of subversions.
So that's a lot of what the book is about
is about how these career bureaucrats resisted what the White
House was trying to do.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Well. I think one of the problems they had with
you going in is that you were an honest guy
and you weren't going to tolerate any corruption on your watch.
And I think, if I'm reading the book correctly, the
reason they disliked you so much is because you got
rid of some people who were corrupt.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
I found out pretty early on that one of my
own subordinates was engaged in a criminal conflict of interest
in using his government job to get business for a
private company in which he was actually the chairman of
the board of directors. And so I took this to
higher authorities, and the first discourage sign was that they said, well,
(03:01):
you know, yeah, this is good.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
You want to do something about this.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Most of the time people just don't say anything about
these sorts of things. And you know, I didn't fully
at the time appreciate exactly why that was, but certainly
part of it is that there's great resistance that comes
into play.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
And so after I.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Reported this individual for corruption and a few others, they
came after me. And that's, unfortunately what discourages so many
people from doing this. And I'm hoping with the book
to raise awareness so that this kind of thing doesn't
play out again.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
You know, it seems to me that it's not just
true in government, but in life. The people who hold
the power within corporations, for example, are oftentimes corrupt. I
can tell you why I was telling you before we
came on how much I love the book. In my
life and I'm sixty one, three times I've either been
fired or pushed out of a job for being honest,
(04:00):
either a superior telling me to lie on a report
and I said I wouldn't do it, or me turning
in somebody else within the organization who was breaking the law.
But I have been forced out or fired from three
positions in my life because I was honest. And it
just seems to me that so many people have a
attitude of well, I'll just you know, play along to
(04:23):
get along, and they look the other way on this stuff.
But if you're honest, I mean, life can be hard.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
And you know, in the government, it's you know, especially
troubling because we're talking about people who are supposed to
be in the public trust and they've been empowered to
do things on behalf of the people, and it is
shocking that there are this many.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
Corrupt people.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
And part of the problem too, you have, is that
the federal government is concentrated in the swamp, as we know,
at the Nash Capital Region, and a lot of people
become wedded to the swamp and they find that it
has its perks and pluses, and so once you're tied
to something like that, and it becomes very hard for
(05:14):
you to resist stand up for things because people get
afraid they're going to run into trouble.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So you know, I always tell people, if you're going
to go into government.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
You've got to have an exit plan, because you don't
want to be in a position where you are basically
going to have to go along with whatever sort of
terrible things go on.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
When I introduced you, I hope I mentioned the Masters
of Corruption. That's the book we're talking about today, Masters
of Corruption, how the federal bureaucracy sabotage the Trump presidency.
But the trouble that you got into through no fault
of your own, was actually about a previous book called
a Pose Any Foe. When did you find out that
(05:57):
Oppose any Foe was going to be a problem and
they were going to try to use that to get
rid of you because they didn't like honest Trump appointees
like you telling them what to do.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, that happened in May twenty nineteen. I joined the
pre administration February of twenty eighteen. But this highlights another
nefarious part of the government, which is the so called
pre public publication review process, which they had required me
to sign a non disclosure agreement that gave them thirty
(06:28):
days to review any publications, and so I had submitted
it many months before the book came out, and they
kept saying, well, we're kind of too busy, so we
need more time. And after many many instances of that,
I invoked something that's in a federal regulation that I
basically said, you know, you have another thirty days to
(06:51):
file court injunction if you want to stop publishing me
publishing this.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
But you haven't told me anything.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
And they never did say there's nothing in here you
can't publish, so they didn't do any take any court action.
And the book came out and nobody said, oh, there's
terrible secrets in here. And not until two years after
the book is out does somebody suddenly claim that the
book contains classified information. And we've since this hapn't fought
(07:20):
more than five years ago, the government is still refusing
to say what what actually supposed to period was in it.
Actually have a lawsuit that's been going on for several
years to uncover that.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Wow, it's and by the way, we do want to
say for the audience that everything in your book was
already in the public domain and there was no spilling
of secrets. And there's also this mysterious two star general.
Did we ever find out if that was son Tag
or not?
Speaker 3 (07:51):
That part of it is still also a mystery, and
I think there's been some new press digging as a
result of the book and the legal actions.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Well hopefully.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
I'm up with that, because again, the two stary general
suddenly claims that I had published classified information, and you
process would say, they're supposed to tell you what you're
accused of and who accused you, but they used various
administrative actions to try to prevent that from happening. So
the guy who actually got me fired has still been
(08:26):
hiding behind this shield anonymity, which hopefully we'll eventually get
to the bottom up.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Well, I hope you do too, because this person deserves
to be held accountable, to say the least. You know,
as I read the book, and I'm sure it's more
frustrating for you because it's your life, but it was
frustrating because we're so many times that I thought, Okay,
Mark's going to be vindicated now, and in fact, at
one point you were, and then they took it back
(08:52):
whenever you said got involved and you know, said hey,
are you sure you want to do this or something
of that effect. So what was that like? Living through that?
It seems like, you know, every time, you know, it's
almost like Gilligan's Island, you know, and every every time,
every week, you thought he was going to get off
the island and that he didn't. You know, every chapter,
I thought you were going to be vindicated and then
(09:14):
you weren't. I hope the I hope the Gilligan's Island reference,
Uh is a too low level for you. But you
did mention Roscoe Peak coultry in your book, so I
thought maybe Gilligan's Island would be fair game too.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yes, yeah, it is. Uh, it can be very trying.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I mean, you know, the there's a high rate of
mental illness among people who are the victims of whistleblow retaliation.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
You know, I I you think I was able to
stand it because of you having a supportive family, and
you also had spent a lot of time reflecting and
thinking and building a space.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
Uh. You know.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
I think you know a lot of people, you know
who don't have.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Some faith in some higher authority.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
They're particularly vulnerable because they don't have some kind of
anchor that they can look on, and they haven't prepared
themselves mentally for the kind of anguish that you can experience.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
Do you do you sort of see this as being
part of the overall law fair that they've used to
go after Trump. And as you noted in the book,
revoking of security clearance went way way up when Trump
was in office. So it just sounds like this is
almost kind of a coordinated effort, or at least a
go to plan to get rid of people that were
(10:35):
Trump appointees that they didn't like me. Is this part
of the overall law fair?
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Yeah, it is part of you know, in what's now
being called by Jim jordanother's weaponization, where they're basically using
things that are supposed to be you know, to punish
the bad guys are instead of being used to punish
political opponents. And we saw that with there's number of
(11:00):
other Trump appointees, Adam Levenger, Michael Ellis, Katie Arrington, who
you know, all our attacks on these spurious grounds, and
of course they also try to hide what the actual
information is. You know, security clearance process is more prone
to abuse because it's harder to exercise your rights. And
(11:21):
it said even finally when we did work to a
point where we can say, clearly, here's you know, the
government rules say you've got to turnovers information. They simply
ignored it and we had to go to court and
we're still in court trying to get them to follow
their own rules.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I have a question. If that book of yours was
so evil and contain so many secrets, classified secrets on
the part of the United States, why did they let
you sell it? Why did you know, I mean, why
didn't they look at it back when you submitted it
for the review and say, wow, this has a lot
(11:59):
of government secret. We're sorry, Mark, we can't let you
put this out on the market. But they did it.
Don't seem to have any problem they would they wait
two years to tell you something.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Yes, yes, that's right.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
Well that's you know, indicative of what a sham this
whole thing is, is that, you know, if I had
actually published secrets as this one individual claimed, I would.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
You know be in jail. Men, that's a felony offense. Uh.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
And so you know they used this shitkaner with my
security clearance to get me fired. But you know, had
I actually done what I was accused of doing, they
they would have prosecuted me. And there was never any
effort to prosecute me by the Department of Justice.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Now, in the beginning, they tried to keep you from
getting it in the first place. I believe you said,
didn't turn it into the CIA, And when they were
called out on it, they said, well, we don't reprove
that the CIA does. But they were the ones who
took so much time even submitting that to the CIA.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Yes, there they are all sorts of you know, obstruse procedures,
and a big part of the problem for political pointe
is is you don't understand how all of these processes work,
especially early on, and so they can run circles around you.
And that's one of the big problems that I think
(13:21):
hopefully can be overcome this time with the second Trump administration,
is that people are more aware of this, and there's
already a number of efforts to prepare political appointees. Because
when I was hired, and by this point Trump had
been in office for a year, there were still no
orientation that kind of teach you the ropes and watch
out for these people what you need to do if
(13:43):
this happens to you.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
You say in the book that you believe Americans need
to talk to each other more about corruption. Is it
possible that the average everyday American like me is just
kind of given up and accepted that this type of
from all activity, this type of corruption is just part
and parcel to Washington, d c. And it's never going
to change. I mean, I'm sure we have the wrong attitude,
(14:08):
but I mean you look at Washington and you just say,
stuff goes on every day. It's a you know, politics
is a is a blood sport. So I mean, you
say we should be talking about it more. But do
you think most of us have just given it to
the point where we're apathetic.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
I think there is a lot of apathy and it's
been frustrating. And continue to see this with the you
know Biden administration. I mean, what's going on with Hunter
Biden and is an ability to dodge a lot of
the charges against him. And you finally do have some
Republicans in Congress who have been on the case and
(14:43):
forcing some things to happen.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
And so I think.
Speaker 3 (14:47):
People shouldn't lose all of because you have, you know,
these members of Congress, some of whom you know a
lot of the members of Congress that don't care enough,
but some of them do and they're doing things, and
I'll think also the selection will be important.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
You know, Trump promised to drain the swamp and he
had some success on that. As I say in.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
The book, they weren't fully prepared to deal with the
swamp because they didn't have enough experience dealing with it.
And so part with this book shows is how do
you actually stop some of the corruption the second time around?
And a lot of that has to do with getting
the right people, because, as I point out to you,
one of the most corrupt people who helped bring me
(15:31):
down was actually a political appointee who never should have
been chosen in the first place. And she was married
to the top lobbyist for our own agencies contractors, which
is about as corrupt as you could possibly imagine.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
Let me jump in on that. When you say this
is a corrupt situation. This guy represented people who collectively
received billions of dollars in bids from the your organization
in which this person worked and was a high level
of what was she the number two person?
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yes, that's right, she was the you know, the number
two person in the agency. Bonnie Glick is married to
the guy who's the top lobbyist for the agency's contractors,
and you know, the people at the time were saying,
this is outrageous, how could you possibly allow this? And
we know now that there was a crooked lawyer within
(16:28):
the agency who tolerated this, and he was also actually involved.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
In a lot of other bad business. But clearly.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
There was not enough effort initially or time given to
finding the right people. And we have seen in the
last three and a half years that the Trump campaign
and also various other outset organizations have been identifying how
we actually get the kind of people you need who
are going to stand up for the corruption and are
not going to simply let the bureaucrats do what they
(16:59):
want to do, because that's what the bureaucrats want, is
that basically the political appointees will just go along with
whatever they say, and that's have the least resistance. So
you you have to have people who are willing to
stand up to their coruption and also don't care what
the press says, because the press will attack people, you know,
especially if they're trumpetpointees.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Oh yeah, that's their favorite hobby is attacking Trump appointees.
I gather that most of the people they are these
permanent bureaucrats in Washington, that their salary is just kind
of the tip of the iceberg as far as what
they make when they're in Washington, because it's it's starting
(17:39):
to sound like they all have a little side gig
going on that isn't necessarily legal. I mean, is there
a ton of that going on there where everybody's got
some kind of connection or they're already working for the
for the contractor they're going to get a job with
when they get out.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
Yeah, well, I would say it's certainly not all the bureaucrats.
You know, there's a fairly limited number of them who
have control over the money, and so a lot of
them are, you know, especially at the more senior levels,
they're involved in steering contracts. Uh. You know, people say, well,
you know, we don't see people. You know, you can't
(18:18):
just take money out of the government account sticking in
your pocket.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
You generally can't do that.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
But there's lots of ways, and especially in the in
the world of contract and there's these huge contracts, people
will steer them to friends or someone will pay them
kickbacks and uh. And there's also another thing that happens
commonly is they'll.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
Uh, you know, they'll give.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
The contract, will do a favor for someone in the government,
and then they'll hire them subsequently at a high salary.
We see a lot of that as well.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, I assumed you did. I mean, it's just absolutely
pathetic what goes on, and how so many people are
just accustomed to looking the other way on it. You weren't.
That's very much to your credit, and we need more
honest people like you in Washington. Now let me move
forward here. This is a question that I almost didn't ask,
(19:12):
but if Trump were re elected, would you consider going
back into that swamp and continuing to fight if you
get your security clearance back.
Speaker 3 (19:23):
Yeah, you could never say no to an important opportunity
like that. I was fortunate after leaving the government to
get a job as a professor at Hillsdale College, which is.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Very important into building the next generation.
Speaker 3 (19:41):
And so right now I'm just enjoying that because so
many of our colleges and universities have abandoned the traditional
mission mission of preparing young people for life in a
substantive way, and.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
So you never know what the future holds.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Well, we need people like you. But based on what
you've been through, I think it would be selfish to
ask you to head right back in there. We need
to take a quick break, do a little business with America,
and we will be right back with mister Mark Moyer,
the author of Masters of Corruption, How the Federal Bureaucracy
sabotaged the Trump Presidency. And we are back with Mark Moyer,
(20:47):
the author of Masters of Corruption, How the Federal bureaucracy
sabotaged the Trump Presidency. And speaking of Trump, how aware
do you think he is of your particular situation.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know all the
precise details. I believe he has some awareness of it
and others around him, and I'm hoping that you know,
of course, I'm far from the only case of people
(21:20):
who were in the Trump administration who have been attacked
by this weaponization process.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So I do hope if he is elected that they.
Speaker 3 (21:30):
Will dig in and start using the Justice Department's Office
of Inspectors General to actually find out what's happened, because
that's part of the problem is that, you know, there's
also supposed to be these watchdogs to prevent this sort
of stuff from happening, but they're also co opted by
(21:51):
some of the bad actors, and so I do think
if the Trump administration has the opportunity, they will do something.
I mean, we did try to appeal to people in
the Biden administration, and particularly Samantha Power, who is the
head of the agency where I used to work, and
you may recall her as the woman who was unmasking
General Slid among other things. And so Senator Charles Grassley
(22:14):
had gone to her and asked her to to provide
some information on the case, and she just refused to
do anything. So I don't see the Democrats doing anything
to help people like me. But I do think if
the Republicans regained the White House, then we will see
some action.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Well that's good, and I, like everyone else up crossing
my fingers and hope that Trump wins against Kamala Harris
or Kamela Harris. I don't want to be accused of
being racist. But at the same time, I mean, who
knows if she'll even be the candidate seriously depends on
what the polls are. I will guarantee you if if
Biden had a sufficient lead over excuse me, if Trump.
(22:58):
Let me reverse that, if Biden had a sufficient lead
over Donald Trump, they would have never admitted that he's
lost a few of his marbles and that he wasn't
fit to go on. I mean they they've been masking
that for three and a half years with no problem.
All of a sudden, it looks like Trump might have
a shot at winning, and oh my god, what happened
to Joe? Joe's not his old self.
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Well, I mean, yeah, yeah, Well, the media has been
incredibly dishonest, and it was weird. Suddenly after that debate,
the media is suddenly reporting on all this bad stuff
and the Biden administration that it had been ignoring for uh,
you know, for years, and then and then this once,
(23:39):
once kamala Is has a nomination, there back to their
usual thing of let's not report anything bad about the Democrats.
So it's amazing to watch what how the mainstream media
has ignored her many scandals and her all the crazy
things that she has said, and her general unpopularity.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I think it's interesting that it was so easy for
the entrenched bureaucrats to mess with your security clearance. First
they delayed it by not turning in the application. Then
they came after you on completely false grounds, saying that
you had released secrets in your earlier book. But then
(24:22):
when President Trump tried to get rid of John Brennan's
security clearance, I mean, I still don't know if that's
happened successfully. I still don't know if anyone ever followed that,
or if the resistance just said no, we're not going
to do that. Do you know what the update is
on John Brennan and whether you've lost it.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
I don't think he ever did. And he's a great example.
And he himself, when he was a director to CI
was pulling removing the security clearances of people who witnessed
ben Ghazi debacle because they were not going along with
the party line as to what happened. But yeah, he's
(25:00):
he's among the worst of the worst, and and he
has said things that you should have had it should
have resulted in his clearance getting revoked. But uh, you know,
I don't know all the details that case, but I'm
guessing what happened. Which has happens which is common is
that people say, well, you know, this is really complicated,
it's going to take a long review, and you know,
(25:21):
just string things out until you know the end of
the administration and the Democrats come in.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, yeah, it's absolutely amazing that with all the reasons
to take away John Brown security clearance, as it sounds
that never happened. And in your case, you know, they
delay it, then they take it away, and then they
give it. Then the d O D. I guess, uh,
I agreed to bring you back on and then you said,
contacted the d O D. And then they decided to
(25:47):
review it a second time. I mean, it just the
whole the whole thing is just nonsense, and it leaves
the average everyday American like myself, just wondering, I mean,
what is the what is the limit on this corruption?
I'm watching how they're not just prosecuting but persecuting Trump
and throwing laws out the window and making up laws
(26:08):
and extending the statutes of limitation and all the different
things that they're doing to him, claiming Mary Lago is
only worth eighteen million, you know, in civil court the
Egene Carol case, which is basically he said, she said
type situation. I mean, the woman I'm going to stop
(26:29):
short of diagnosing her psychologically, but she seems, you know,
she was flirting with Anderson Cooper when she was telling
this gut wrenching story of how Trump raped her in
a closet in a department store, and by the way,
the whole thing was ripped out of an episode of
Law and Order, same department store, same location within the
department store. Then you know, she's telling us what should
(26:51):
have been a gut wrenching story to Anderson Cooper, and
she's flirting with him while she does it. She has
written all kind of crazy stuff in her articles, and
in fact, she's so focused on sex she has a
cat named Vagina T Fireball, Okay, And this is the
woman who's being believed over President Trump in this case.
(27:14):
So it just seems to me that when you look
at how they can even push around people like yourself
and more powerful and extremely wealthy people like Donald Trump,
the average everyday guy doesn't have a chance. If they
can do this to people like you and people like
Donald Trump, they can do it any of us. And
so a lot of us do kind of feel like, maybe,
(27:35):
and I'm not following this for very well, but you
should just kind of keep your head down low and
ignore everything and keep your mouth shut and stay out
of trouble. I mean, it certainly is. We've watched all
of this unfold, the messages that you know, there's not
a whole lot of justice going on at the Department
of Justice.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Well, I think a big part of the problem is
the people who are put in charge of these federal agencies.
And in my agency that our number two version was
just corrupt. The top person was ineffective. And we saw
this in other places like the State Department with Rex Tillerson,
(28:15):
the Department of Defense with James Mattis, that they didn't
have people there who were really committed to getting things
done that the White House want to do and stopping
at bureaucracy from doing bad things. That we did have
some other cabinet heads David Bernhardt at Interior perhaps the
best example, who were there who were really organized and
(28:37):
motivated and actually compel the bureaucracy to do what was
supposed to do and didn't put up with the corruption.
And so that's what really needs to be done, because
the President himself.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Cannot be running.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
These agencies, and that's what he has these cabinet officials
for in the agency heads. And so if you have
the right agency heads, you can do a lot. You know,
there's still gonna be some resistance, but a great amount
can be done in it. But it was the fact that,
certainly my agency, that you had leaders political appointees who
(29:12):
were afraid or just unwilling to confront the bureaucracy because
they had other things to worry about, like what's their
next job going to be?
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Or is avoiding being attacked in the media.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
You mentioned in the book, and by the way, you
went through a living hell. And as if all this
weren't enough, your son Trent was diagnosed with cancer. How's
he doing now.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
Yeah, well he's fortunately, he's he's doing better he had.
You know, he came back a few times, but he's
been able to get back to college after lengthy absence.
But yeah, that was certainly a very trying time in
our lives and just happen to coincide with all the
crazy things that were going on.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Well, I'm going to ask my listeners to pray for
Trent and that he continue to improve and that your
life continues to improve as well. You're at Hillsdale right now,
which is a great place for any conservative to be.
Are you going to stick with Hillsdale for a while
or what's on the horizon for Mark?
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yes, sir, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the plan.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
We really Hillsdale College, and it's a great community, great students,
and under our current president, Larry arn it's really become
an elite educational institution and.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
In some respects is a place where we are going
to be.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
Training the leaders of our future, because the way we've
seen in other institutions, the faculty is pretty much one
hundred percent left wing now and they crenate students, and
so it's going to be these other institutions like Hillsdale
that increasingly, I think we're depending on to produce the
(31:02):
kind of leaders that the country really needs.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
I again, spend some time at the Texas A and M.
Bush School. I think coming in you thought, oh, it's
named after a Republican president, there is gonna be like
conservatives there, and it didn't exactly turn out that way.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (31:19):
It's uh, that's again for those who are familiar with
the academia, it's probably not too surprising.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
But you know, even these places.
Speaker 3 (31:28):
That are supposedly seen as sort of conservative institutions are
dominated by the left, and the left has been very effective.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
You know.
Speaker 3 (31:40):
They also now since they control most of the elite universities,
they then control who who will get a graduate degree,
get a PhD, and go on to teach.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
And certainly my feel of history nowadays, if you want.
Speaker 3 (31:54):
To get an academic job, you have to specialize in
the race, class, and gender or even studies. And if
you don't do that, so you know, just by that alone,
they're able to perpetuate this radical ideology in the faculty.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, and it's been kind of weird because I'm actually
talking to you about six miles from Texas A and
M right now, maybe a little less. And I grew
up here, and so I have watched the university change
over the years, you know, when I was at A
and M. And I'm basically summarizing these statistics, but you
(32:30):
probably had hundreds of people, maybe like twelve hundred people
that were Young Republicans Club and maybe fifty people in
the Young Democrats Club. And I think that if you
go there now, that's probably worst. So you know, we've
had Antifa, I don't call them rallies, they weren't riots,
(32:53):
but on campus we've had BLM protesting there, and it's
just it's just different. It's just very, very different than
whenever Texas A and M was it all military school
or even in the years, the decades that came immediately
after that, and now you know it's it's just like
any other any other university. One more, very very important
(33:19):
question for you, Mark, How can people get a hold
of a copy of your book?
Speaker 3 (33:24):
Yeah, they can get it through Amazon dot com and
you know other bookstores Barnes and Noble, local bookstores, and
there's also an audio version at audible dot com and
there's a Kindle version.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
Yeah, and don't forget the the original, not the original.
You've written many books, but the book opposed any Foe
is still out there too, and that's the book that
this book is kind of written about.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (33:50):
I just thought of one last question. How long did
it take you to get this book approved to go out? Well?
Speaker 3 (33:56):
This one? Yeah, that was interesting because it can after
my last experience and knowing that there wasn't classified information
in it, I wasn't even sure if I was going
to submit it, but my lawyer advised me to do so.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
And again they're supposed to have thirty days. They took
you know, six.
Speaker 3 (34:12):
Months or so, and then finally I sued them this
time because that was again the lawyer's recommendation, just so
they couldn't pull any stunts.
Speaker 2 (34:23):
And then as soon as we sued.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Them, they came back and said, oh, you know what,
we just approved your book, and actually we approved it
right before you file the suits, so we don't owe
you any legal fees. So it was just another instance
of bad faith and duplicity.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
But yeah, they.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Didn't after they finally did you know, did not actually
say there was anything we couldn't publish in it.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Wow. And I had Cash battil on at one point,
and I believe he had to sue to get government
gangsters out as well. You know, there's a lot of
that going on. They don't want anyone publishing books that
might say something bad about them. So but once again, Mark,
thank you for being on the show. I love the book.
Finished it last night. There's a whole lot of stuff
(35:04):
in there people need to see. When people think of
the resistance, they think of it being the resistance versus
Donald Trump. But it was really the resistance versus Donald
Trump and anyone he appointed. And you guys were, you know,
fighting a battle that a lot of people I don't
even think we're aware of. So this is a very
very important book. I know we haven't had the happy ending.
(35:28):
We went yet, but maybe with the changing of the
guards in November, we might get that at some point.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Yes, I hope so. And I can't say. One of
the worst offenders in the bureaucracy mentioned in the book, Rob.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
Jenkins, actually got kicked out of the agency as a
result of the book's publication.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
So we have scored one victory already, and hopefully there'll
be more to come.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
That's one happy ending. My goodness, why goodness. And I
read that book and every time that guy's name came up,
I was like, why doesn't somebody do something about this? So,
but at any rate, I don't know. We've given away
a lot, but we certainly haven't given it all away.
So if you want to know the rest of the story,
pick up a copy of Mark Moyer's book and he
(36:16):
is going to tell you, or he's where he will
tell you from his own personal experience about the masters
of corruption. And trust me, they are masters of corruption.
They are there. This is real. Mark. Thank you for
being on the show.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Yeah, thanks so much for having great talking with you.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Absolutely, thank you. Have a great day, all right, you
two
Speaker 3 (37:20):
You've been listening to the Tea Party Power Hour with
Mark Gullar
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