a_look_inside_a_terrorist_cell_w_a_former_undercover_jihadi_mubin_shaikh

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
From wherever you are around the world. Welcome to the
Circle of Insight Briefings. I'm your host, Doctor Carlos. Today
we have a very fascinating guest. His name is Movie
and Shake. He's one of the very few people in
the world to have actually been undercover in a home
grown terror re cell infiltrating the Toronto eighteen. Because of
this courageous experience, Shake is considered a primary source for

(00:23):
the study of Islamist radicalization and terrorism by academics worldwide.
He remains an active trainer of military and security intelligence
and violent Islamist extremists. He consults with governments and lectures
to security experts worldwide, including NATO, the UN, the US
Department of Defense, the FBI, the UK Home Office and
we don't have enough time on the show to discuss everybody.

(00:45):
He also regularly appears on ABC, NBC, CBS, CBC, CNN, NPR.
He also co authored a fabulous book with doctor An
Speckhard that I highly recommends. The book he won't put down.
Undercover Gihani is side the Toronto eighteen al KaiA inspired
homegrown terrorism in the West. Well, it's not waste any

(01:05):
more time. Let's bring movieing Shake Onto the show. Welcome Eban,
how are you?

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I'm fine?

Speaker 1 (01:11):
Thank you well, thank you so much for being here.
The book was fascinating. It's a fascinating read of your life.
It's an amazing life, an amazing turnaround you've done too.
I have to commend you on that fabulous turnaround. We'll bean.
Can you give us a brief overview of your life
and how this all started?

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Sure? Well, I'm born agree in Toronto, Canada. My parents
are Indian background, and as I was growing up here
in Toronto, I started to have an identity crisis. You know,
my cultural community has called me the one thing. The
society around me was calling me to something else, and

(01:54):
I didn't know, you know, which side I was supposed
to be on. And so by the time I was
about eighteen, I I went to India and Pakistan and
I would need to be Galadan at that time. And
it was by accidents. And after meeting them, of course,
I became very enamored by them. I found, hey, if

(02:16):
either are the Jackie Dean, either are the warriors of
old and I should be like them. And so after
returning back from Pakistan, I joined up with more extremist elements.
I remained in these extremist elements for some years until
the nine elevenment has happened, and that forced me to

(02:37):
reconsider my my views on jihad and Islam in the world.
I then spent two years in Syria studying Arabic and
Islamic studies and realized that the interpretations I had were wrong.
I came back to Canada and began working for the
Game and Security Intelligence Service. I worked a number of

(02:58):
investigations under cover with them, and the last investigation I
worked became a terrorism investigation of terrorism prosecution, so I
moved over to the police. I was operational with them
for about six months and eighteen individuals were elected in
two thousand and six and what came to be known

(03:19):
as the Toronto eighteen bomb plot. I then spent four
years in court given testimony. When I was finished with
my testimony in twenty ten, I got onto Twitter and Facebook.
I saw the rise of ISIS in real time. I
began to engage with ISIS followers on Twitter. I began

(03:41):
to argue with them, to debate them, control them, to
track them, and I did that from about twenty thirteen
twenty fourteen and twenty fifteen. And because of that, you know,
different government agencies kind of saw what I was doing,
and now because of that, I trained them on these recoes.

(04:05):
So that's that's my life in a nuts job.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
That's a faculum. You got this master to tell you
that was really wonderful. You really didn't give us a
concise history of everything was going on, and it caused
me to have a lot of questions, which is always scary.
But I guess for some people. Mouban, we'll go back
to the identity crisis. Initially, you mentioned I know from

(04:30):
reading reading a lot of the terrorists, I don't know
what you'd call them. I guess psychology experts or kind
of terrorism experts. The identity crisis does seem to be
an issue when immigrants are living in other countries. Were
you first generation as well?

Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yes, I'm born here. My father did grow up in
the UK. Interesting, he wasn't exposed to Western culture, I
mean for a number of years, so you know, he
was a little more were developed than I think most
parents would come from, let's say, straight from India to
Canada or India to the UK in that but my mother,

(05:12):
of course, she came straight from India to Canada. She's
a little bit more conservative, but but you're right, this
is this is very common with not just first generation,
but it even carries on into seconds and sometimes even third.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, that's an interesting that's an interesting comment because I
always wondered technically this might differ. Of course, of course,
culturally the first generation, I can see the conflict with
the parents coming from a different country. But then I
would assume that when they become parents, they don't want
to expose their children to the same But yet the
second generation still has an issue as well. Sometimes that's

(05:50):
a fascinating dilemma for me. I don't know if you
have any insight on that at all, why that would
continue to second and third generations.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yeah. I think the reason for that is because that
first generation that we're looking at in that example, where
a second or even third generation might still show these
kinds of crises. My view is that the first generation
when they come there is still a lot of cultural

(06:19):
daggage that is associated and so even though they may
be born in Canada, America and Britain, their family will
still be imposing on them these cultural views. So it
takes them this first generation case, a little bit longer
for those ideas to diffuse to kind of spread through

(06:43):
the generation. So I think because especially for those those
cultural communities that really cling on to their views, their values,
the practices, it takes a little bit longer for their
children to integrate into the society. And that's why you
continue to see the identity crisis.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
Excellent point. Excellent point some of the I'm want to
ask you a couple of questions here, and it's up
to you whether you want to answer yourself or if
you can tell me of anybody in the Toronto eighteen
that you when you were under cover, if you saw
anything similar there, or if you've heard of anything similar there,
or any other terrorists that you might have had contact
with you or anybody else. Did they have problems with

(07:23):
their father? We seem to have some patterns here, but
I don't see a lot of literature on it. But
I do see over a controlling parents, authoritarian fathers. Is
that something you saw at all?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Absolutely? Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (07:38):
Oh interesting.

Speaker 2 (07:39):
You know, one of the most common things, especially in
youth crime, and I think you know the issues of radicalization, violence, radicalization,
you know, a large portion of it is just youth
crime and youth ang you know, the and this has
common so when it bothered knitting, the man, you know,

(08:00):
tend to maybe become a run the very real risk
of being involved in criminality. And some of the theories are
that the father is supposed to be a stabilizing element
in their life. So sometimes you'll see whether there's an
absence father syndrome. And yet I did see this in
multiple cases that I was involved in, especially in the

(08:23):
Toronto A team. You know, for example, Zakaria Amara was
with the ring leaders. His parents divorced the day his
father enough team from the comment cute that he never
saw his father again.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Oh sorry, were they Muslims?

Speaker 2 (08:42):
Yes, the father was Muslim, but the mother was actually
a Christian, okay, and so the father just left. And
one of the first things we saw that Zakaria did
was he became attracted to an older figure in the
community was also a radical, and we thought that maybe

(09:02):
this was his way of replacing his father. Another case
which I wasn't directly involved in, but the you know,
there's two degrees of separation from from them and the
people that I was dealing with, So you know, for him,
Ahmed was one of the guys. He was dealing with
a guy named ab Khan from the UK and Avid

(09:22):
Khan was was working with or was in contact with
a Moroccan diplomat son living in London who was arrested
on carriers and charges his blood. He his friend, He
was from Sweden. His his family came from Bosnia, so
you know, he has the trauma background. His father died

(09:43):
in a car accident when he was young. So there's
so this is something that I do both when the
father is missing and also when the father is very
authoritarian and it is imposing very forcefully their cultural value
as the religious values on the child. And I saw
this second case in one of the guys who was

(10:06):
involved in the generation at least when we were a
number of others who either have a missing father or
have a father that who is authoritarian.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Fascinating, fascinating stuff.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
I know.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
I'm assuming a lot of these recruiters per se are
tapping into that, aren't they.

Speaker 2 (10:26):
Pretty absolutely? I mean, even when I myself involved in
recruiting young people to this global jihadi mentality, we look
for guys. We look for guys who were you know,
separated from their family. It could be a convert a
person who just became Muslim and his family, you know,

(10:47):
has disowned him or it's very effect that they become
a Muslim. So we looked for that. We knew that,
you know, if there was such a kid, he would
always hang around with us, who would always want to
be with us, because we were the new family group,
we were the new peer group, we were the new

(11:08):
support structure. And so you know, recruiting in my time
and recruiting today, in that respect, it remains exactly the same.
And it's actually exactly the same when you look at
like supremacist groups. I have friends who used to be
you know, active neo Nazis, and they became teams activists,

(11:28):
and we saw the doc think and they would look
for these kinds of other people who were ostracized or
other lives troubled in their family life.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
That's very true. It's an excellent point. Gangs and all
sorts of these criminal organizations. Excellent point. Well, mean, I
want to ask you this one now, uh materials Actually
know before I get the materials, how well verse were
you in Islam before you you had your I don't
know if you say unfortunate encounter with Taliban or not,

(12:00):
but you're encounter with the Taliban. How well verse were
you in Islam? Were well versed enough to understand what
they were talking about when they talked about their ideology
or just kind of uh on the surface, How well
worse were you?

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Right? Good question. It was very superficial. It was a
cultural experience with this map. So the Indian expanding background.
One of the things we do is, you know, the
children go to Madressa again on Madrasa and it's just
an ira work for school, but in its steciftic connotation,

(12:38):
it refers to a Koran school. And you know, the
boys would sit and we were alsoting on the floor
wooded benches. We would be rocking back and forth. We
would be reading the Koran, but we wouldn't know what
we were reading. But we didn't study Iravi it, we
didn't study the other sciences of its Lam, of topsy.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Had nothing to think. Wow, none of that really like.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
A parent right. And and it's very strange because we
have people in the you know, in the Indian Pakistani
communities who didn't have memorized the entire court, but they
don't understand a single word of what they're reading Wow.
For me, I had a very cultural exposure to their religion.

(13:28):
I didn't really go into it in that much depth,
but it was very superficient. So by the time I
met the Faladan I was thinking to be just because
guys are life heroes and I didn't even really nobody
had taught me, you know, what are the rules of
she had what what is the proper opting that the

(13:50):
proper grounds that we're supposed to move And so it
was I don't know if it was unfortunate. I think
it's It was a Mexic very part of my development,
but at the time of meeting them, was very superficial.
If I understand what it's.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Not fascinating stuff. Let me remind everybody again, it says
mobeing Shake. He's got a wonderful book that a co
author called Undercoverage Hoti inside the Toronto eighteen and get
on Amazon dot com and you can find him on
Twitter at mister Moubean, m Ubi n Shake, s h
Ai kh At mister Modean Shake. Fascinating story. Webean as

(14:28):
we continue on really interesting stuff and I really appreciate
your time. You were talking about being well versed the
talent we know, the ISIS has really intense schooling, or
at least from everything the defectors have told us. And
one of the things I always found really interesting was
a lot of the defectors really liked the learning about Islam.

(14:51):
You know, I know, obviously it's a distorted version from Isis,
but still they didn't know that at the time, they
really liked it. Did the Taliban do the same with
you or was that organization you ended up going with.

Speaker 2 (15:03):
Well, I had a very brief encounter with them, I
mentioned earlier in the day, and you know, they were
just surprised that there were Muslims from Canada who had
come all the way, who went to Akka. You know,
they couldn't imagine that there were so many Muslims in Canada,
that there were mosques in Canada. You know, you know,

(15:26):
we're free to worship, and you know, they just couldn't
imagine it. And they would eventually, you know, they returned
back to the mosque that we were seeing at and
they were just more curious than anything else. But their
message was very simple that we are doing what you
had again the go far the non Muslim there's all those

(15:47):
people who have come to understand and who did come
to a Danistan Uh And you know, by the time
the thought of Ian came to power, you know, that
had been five years of civil war between the Soul
Company Jettian groups, and you know, thought about what he
learned in nineteen ninety five that this is when I
met them, when they just first came onto the team.

(16:07):
So I really didn't go into religious homage. They were
just more interested in explaining what their what their role
was inspect nothing like what we were what we were
seeing today with ISIS.

Speaker 1 (16:22):
The ISIS is an incredibly run organization. So it's really
amazing it's said, and how many whys it's destroying? Movieing
as we continue on in the last we got like
five minutes left. We can keep you here all day. Wonderful.
What was I going to ask? Now I have lost
my priend. So we talked about your parents. We've talked
about your involvement with Islam Uh when you when you

(16:46):
worked inside as a terrorist with in the cell. What
were some of the things that really stood out for you?

Speaker 2 (16:56):
Well, a number of things, I mean horst and foremost
or how young they were and this isact thing now
something that we're seeing very often, you know, as young
people get involved in these things. And you know, one
of the things I realized is obviously intelligence agencies, police agencies,

(17:17):
they have a very specific job and they're not really
going to look at it, you know, deeper. But because
of where I was, and you know, I had the
opportunity to look at it deeper, I could see that
this was an issue of really young people. Young people,
their their identity conflicts, you know.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
Their desire to be you know, one.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
Of the bigest people, uh, the idea of being powerful when
any more power less. And I think back to the
young young components being young males, that young people their
brains are still developing physically, when their brains don't completely
development until they're twenty five. Absolutely, you know, this is

(18:03):
really the question for me, what do you do with
teenagers who are involved in this of the stuff? Do
you arrest them, you know, to do you counsel them?
What do you do if you don't arrest them and
you counsel them and they don't follow me counsel and
they don't do something anyway? So there were so many
questions that came out of investigating them, you know, upfront

(18:24):
and face to face, and I think what I've learned
most from this is this is a very very complex phenomenon.
It will require the cooperation of security services, of counseling services,
of families, and the religious communities.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Absolutely, I think you actually answered my last question, which
was coming up in a few minutes. What's your biggest
takeaway from this whole thing? Wonderful. You're absolutely right, it's
so complex, and this is a question that's popped them
right now. In my mind, I have a belief it's
not commonly believed among experts, but I really think there
are some common in the mentality of somebody who gets

(19:02):
radicalized or goes that route. But they're also extreme distinctions
between somebody, for instance, like yourself who was born in
Canada with parents that were from India. I think you
said in Pakistan and from India, but both okays.

Speaker 2 (19:20):
System that I went to this year between Indians and
pakistanis okay.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
And others for instance that maybe the young people from
the Maghreb over in Europe to the young people here
in America. There are some real, real big distinctions, aren't there.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
I think, you know, I North America, there's there's less
of racism and then of course racism a giants. I
think it will always agree that think it's something natural
is in being, but we learned to manage it here
and we learned to correct how we're thinking is here
in the left, especially in North America in particular. So
number one that can marginalization is lower here in North

(20:03):
America than it is in Europe. Uh And in Europe
it's it's it's pretty bad. Europe has a colonial history,
so especially young people from mother and you're living in
Europe science, you know, coming from a juniors, there's a
pretty bad history that comes from that. And I think
you know, for for them, it's more acute to escape

(20:27):
more often. If your name is Muhammad, that off the law.
You know, you're probably not going to get the job
in it. You're probably going to be called name. And
and I think that's the bigger difference. I would say,
just one more difference, and you're closer, you're closer to
the Middle East. In Europe, you can literally get in
a car or a train or whatever and drive to

(20:47):
Turkey and go and joint that you have. You can't
do that so easily in North America. So I think
there are a number of things where you have to
look at your graphics, you have to look at psychosocial environment,
and the identity Christ is part I think is a
common element in both places.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
That's a fabulous point. And then you may have brought
up a great point too about the proximity of the
Middle East. Is it fair to say that there's an
internal yearning for a lot of these individuals, whether marginalized
or not, just to go back to the Middle East.
I know for Christians, a lot of times those who
are really following, really devout Christians, I guess I'll say,

(21:26):
are really always want a little little bit of a
deep desire to go and visit Jerusalem, for instance, and
visit where Christ was crucified or Christ was born. Is
that the same you think for Muslims as well, since
it's closer in Europe to have that internal yearning just
to get to the Middle East.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
I think it's a little different than that. I think
he is. For you know, hundreds of years, the Muslim
world has only known a very particular coming of government,
right that you either had you know, a leaf alia
or a silapa acuity who you have kings who were rulers,

(22:07):
and what happened is you know, for those hundred years,
one hundreds of years, the Muslim world has only that
frame of reference to refer to. And so what happens
is when they now that they find themselves in the
modern world, you know, a lot of intalibate is finished.
Now we're in the modern nation state. You representative democracy.

(22:28):
A lot of Muslims cannot cannot cope with this. They
cannot understand that maybe we need to move away from
the old style of governance and into a new style
of governments now, you know, having changed, like you have
kings in the Middle East still to this day. And
that's fun. I mean, that's still a part of its law.
But I think representative democracy is also part of its law.

(22:51):
I think the biggest problem is for those Muslims who
believe that, know, the society must be ruled by Islam
and the kid of this life that must rule society
has to be shatty out. And their understanding of Shaddyauh
is that, you know, cutting off hands for hes and
really harsh penalties. And the problem is, and again this

(23:14):
is not my opinion of these fathers today who are
experts on the blanches of shattia, like the higher jettice
of Setia. They're staying today like O the love and
bya is beaing his father, you know who says, look,
we need to update some of our rules and regulations.
You know, for example, people will leave his love. Maybe

(23:36):
once upon a time, you know, the instructional peop would
kill them, because in those days, if you left his love,
you were going to join the most team, the enemy,
who would then come to fight me. Nowadays this isn't
a concern, So leave it them, you don't you don't
have to kill them, you know, things like that, having
a more merciful style of government. This is something that

(23:59):
the most world is struggling to identify with. And I
think the reason for this is because we see each
things in the West and because it's not coming out
of the mustom world, they reject it and they say,
you know, all this is not from is lab But
the ironic thing is a lot of European legal frameworks

(24:22):
are constructed by thing has taken from Islam. So in fact,
a lot of Muslim things you should reject what Europe
is promoting. A lot of it is actually Islamic views
that they're promoting. I'm not saying everything, but I think
you know, the count of the cheti and the higher
objectors of city are present in modern day legal discourse.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
Fascinating stuff can cause about fifty more questions. I wish
we had more time. Unfortunately a lot of time. We're
going to have to bring you back moving. Our show
is going to go to an hour and hopefully in
June July and we can bring you back that one.
I think we can have a long discussion, and I
think it's really beneficial for a lot of people, especially
a lot of young people who are listening that may

(25:08):
be having exactly the issues that you mentioned earlier. Moviein
Shake Everybody once again. The book undercovered Gihani Inside of
the Toronto eighteen of Kaita inspired homegrown terrorism in the West.
You can get the book on Amazon dot com. Thank
you so much, Mobin for being.

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Here, most welcome. Thank you very much and.

Speaker 1 (25:30):
As a lot I like them, and thank you everyone
for listening as well. Remember you can find a moviein
at mister movie Shake on Twitter at mister movian Shake
on Twitter. Thank you again for listening, and catch the
rest of our shows on behavior on alysonsgroup dot com.
You can visit us there and catch all our podcasts.
You can also see some recent articles. Go visit our
new blog, Terrorism Psychology WordPress dot com. You can find

(25:52):
some interesting articles our US one yesterday A brief little
excerpt from isis's textbook, Why do they teach math? I
think you'll be surprised. Talk to you all next time.