December 6, 2024 • 58 mins
Happy Holidays, sickos! Break out the Cannibal Christmas Cookies, because today we're talking about the remake to the deep-cut slasher classic, Black Christmas! Before you get riled up, we're not talking about the 2019 Blumhouse version, but the gross-out splatterfest that came out in 2006. On paper, this remake looks Ho Ho Hopeless.
It gave it's mysterious killer a TMI origin story, swapped out suspense for incest and cannibalism, and basically did the opposite of everything the original did. But since this is the giving season, we're giving this reimagining a chance to see if there's more to this movie than meets the gorged-out eye.
It gave it's mysterious killer a TMI origin story, swapped out suspense for incest and cannibalism, and basically did the opposite of everything the original did. But since this is the giving season, we're giving this reimagining a chance to see if there's more to this movie than meets the gorged-out eye.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Oh boy, oh me, oh my, the boys are back
in town. We're here. We're gonna make another episode. This
is this is exciting to be able to sit down
here again and and talk to be two white guys
in front of a microphone. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I think we need to start complaining about wokeness more.
I think the paradigm of and podcasting is pretty clear.
Let me let me say this.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I don't give a shit about like this.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Let me say this. Let's talk about black Christmas before
the woke mob turns it into black holiday happy holidays.
Isn't one Christmas still a thing? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I don't hear about it as much, but I think
there are obviously more pressing things to make everybody afraid of.
You know, who knows the thing in.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
The holiday season just started. I fully expect a lot
of people with too much time in their hands to
start complaining about how Starbucks doesn't put Merry Christmas on
on their coffee cups. But yeah, and you know, I
think the the woke label is interesting with this franchise
(01:22):
because I think one of the most like hotly furiously
criticized movies of like woke cinema is the Black Christmas
remake from a couple of years ago, which we are
not here to talk about. So I don't know why
(01:44):
I uh why I decided to open the episode this way,
other than this is the first time we're actually recording
since since the election that we just had, So I
think we have to I know, I have to process
this before I start talking about UH slasher movies again.
But but here we are talking about not the not
(02:05):
the woke Black Christmas, but arguably the opposite, the most
politically incorrect fuck the slasher of of our lifetimes, right
of of the post UH post screen era. This to
me was was like a pre vicious return to the
(02:29):
no no, we're we're here to We're here to to
traumatize and to scar and to provoke.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And did they ever to piss off?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, boy did they ever were? Of course, Uh, based
on on what you're hearing right now, we are talking
about Black Christmas or Black Xmas if you want to,
if you want to say that from two thousand and six.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
This is a I'm gonna call it a reimagining of
the original film, not quite UH remake doesn't feel right
in this case. Directed by Glenn Morgan. Like I said,
released in two thousand and six, this has a two
point six out of five on letterbox, so well within
the bounds of this show. So, you know, I want
(03:12):
to talk about our histories with this movie briefly, you know,
in a moment here. But you and I, before this
show started, actually collaborated on a little episode of your
old show.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, that's right, that's right now.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I want to bring that up because before that I
had seen Black Christmas, but I had not paid close
attention to charge about the original original Black Christmas. These days,
I hold it as one of the greatest slashers of
all time. It is one of my favorites. I actually
everybody knows I'm a huge Halloween guy. Actually prefer Black
Christmas to the original Halloweeny by a decent margin.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So let me say this. I think that there's a
pipeline from that kind of casual observer of Black Christmas
is to super fan to you know, devotee in. My
relationship with the original comes at an interesting time where
(04:12):
I was I was really going out of my way
to to try to to find the slasher classics, and
by that I mean the the halt like the Halloween peers,
you know, the stuff that was coming out in the
seventies before you know, that genre was kind of uh milked, oversaturated, oversaturated,
(04:38):
and Black Christmas was always championed as as you know,
one of the godfathers of the genre was clearly an
influence on John Carpenter. I don't know if he's ever
said that publicly, but Bob Clark has a story where he,
you know, he meets a young John Carpenter and John
(04:58):
Carpenter tells him how much he I was Black Christmas,
and apparently John asked him, well, what are you going
to do a sequel? Bob Clark said, well, you know,
I I'm not planning on doing a sequel, but if
I did do a sequel, I would probably have Billy
escape from a mental asylum, come back to the sorority
house on Halloween and call it Halloween. So who knows
(05:23):
how much of that is true, But silistically, thematically, this
is this original move is not only an influence on
John Carpenter's Halloween. I just think it's like a huge
like the text Chaine I asker, just a huge shift
in the genre, even though people didn't realize it at
(05:43):
the time. It was not a huge success like TCM
or like Halloween. It it had to build that cult following.
But I would say it's like the velvet underground of Slashers, like,
it doesn't have as many fans by I think if
you are a fan, you are passionate about this. I
don't think there's any you know, just casual appreciation for
(06:06):
the original Black Christmas.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, you know, a good Internet friend, Damien Maffy from
the Strangers Prey at Night, is a huge fan of
this movie. I once told him, I hope my wife
loves me as much as you love Black Christmas, which
I still hope is the truth. But it's funny that
you mentioned the whole escaping from an asylum thing. Most
of what you just said there checks a lot of
the boxes of Black Christmas from two thousand and six,
(06:29):
does it not?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah? No, I think correct me if I'm wrong. But
I think Glenn Morgan said that much of his many
of his ideas for this remake came from backstory that
had been laid out by Bob Clark. I don't know
if he's talking about like interviews he saw, or I
think Bob Clark was directly involved in the production of this,
(06:50):
he was a producer an executive producer. So, you know,
even though this is something that is such a sticking
point for fans of the original, people who love the
original but despise this remake, apparently it is loyal to
(07:12):
the original backstory and the original vision of Black Christmas,
just the parts that we did not see, and some
people would say we didn't see those parts for a reason,
which we can get into. But this comes out before
Rob Zombies Halloween and is an interesting contrast because you
have two you know, purposefully mysterious villains who are really
(07:38):
getting a full origin story and kind of become the
main characters in a way. But with Black Christmas, it's
a little more balanced as an actual slash removing because
you know, they interspice these flashback scenes with actual you know,
with scenes of actual Black Christmas. You know, right, It's
(07:59):
not like you spend the first half with Billy growing up,
you know, going on as killing Spreen. Then you know
the back half is all just a Black Christmas remake.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, there's there's an argument for why both of those
would work in their perspective stories. For sure, we start
out this movie in the Asylum, which I think was
an interesting choice. I don't know how I feel about
it watching this movie back this time, I'll be honest,
it felt it felt a little strange to me this
time around.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, this movie is wonky as hell.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
It's out there to you know what. I want to
say this, it's really interesting you brought up Halloween from
two thousand and seven, because I feel pretty strongly that
this movie is everything people think Rob Zombies movies are.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Well, we can, we can. Okay, let's take the perspective
away from Rob for a second, and I think, like,
let's let's see where like slasher movies are by two
thousand and six, and we are in the midst of
the remake craze. Yeah, Halloween, Friday Nightmare, those haven't come
(09:13):
out yet. So there's there's this kind of interesting effect
where it's almost like the the timeline of the original
slasher movies that we're coming out is being recreated, because
it starts with you know, Texas Saints HWN Masker, and
then you get some some other kind of like cult classics,
(09:34):
and by that I mean like z grade Slasher is
getting remade. Like I don't know how many people needed
a prom Night remake and then the the Big Three
are kind of saved for last. But in the middle
of that is Black Christmas being remade by Glenn Morgan
of The X Files. Do I have that right?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I believe so.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah. Now, he had made another feature before this, another remake,
although one I think that's definitely held in a higher regard.
He remade Willard with Crispin Glover and it did not
succeed at the box office, and Glenn Morgan when he
was making this movie said if Black Christmas didn't succeed,
(10:21):
then he would probably never make another feature film again,
And all these years later, Black Christmas is his last
feature film. Now I'm not sure how popular the original
Black Christmas was at this time, like how many people
wanted to see this, not knowing about the original, not
having seen it. I bet a lot of people saw
(10:43):
this as just its own thing, and I think those
people also rejected it at the time because let's compare
it more to the Texas Shaintsaw Masker remake, which I
think was like the kind of templar that most of
these remakes were trying to follow. And it's uh, it
(11:07):
flies in the face of the of the wisdom, you know,
the conventional wisdom. I think I.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Would say so. I would say so, I honestly, like
I thought about Texas Chainsaw Masacre at the beginning quite
a few times watching this movie. It's there's some there's
some choices that are quite similar to that movie. But
I want to ask you, when you watch this one,
do you so? A lot of times remakes get accused
(11:36):
of having let's say, some some ill will towards the
original film. Uh, we've seen that, and not just in remakes,
but you know, at adapt readaptations of source material, first
time adaptations of source material, there's this content that sometimes
shows up. I'll be honest, like, this is a different
experience than the original Black Christmas, definitively, a completely different experience.
(11:58):
Pretty much everything that they do in Black Christmas nineteen
seventy four they turn on its head and do differently here,
but in a way like I know how people feel
about this movie, but I don't feel it was all
that disrespectful, Like I don't feel like I feel like
it came more from a place of respect in this case, like, hey,
we can't do what they did originally in nineteen seventy four,
(12:21):
So let's do something. Let's do our own thing. Let's
do the best thing that we can do.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah. I think the contempt for this movie doesn't really
come down to how it respects the original, how it
respects the lore of the original. I think it just
comes down to how people think that slashers should be
made right, and how the villains of these movies should
(12:49):
be mythologized, and how of the difference between you know,
being a splatterfest and just a barfbag movie, which is
it's a pretty delicate balance, right if you you know,
if you teeter to the other side, uh, you know,
(13:10):
you lose a lot of people, even even gorehounds. So look,
I I'm kind of the one who wanted to bring
this movie to the discussion of this podcast because I
think there's a lot of merit to this film. But
I don't think there's merit in the in the slasher department.
(13:32):
When when I think of what casual audiences want out
of their slasher films, I think it's a yucky movie.
I think, uh, it's you know, anytime you put incest
in your in your Christmas or holiday theme torror movie
(13:53):
probably is a misfire just by itself.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, But man, when I think about the vision of
this movie, when I think about the aura, the actual
atmosphere of this film, I mean, it's kind of unbeatable.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
And it goes back to the to the Rob Zombie comparison. Now,
Like I acknowledge all the blemishes, but this might be
the best Christmas horror movie in actually evoking Christmas to
me and actually turning the you know, the kind of
symbolism of Christmas and the signifiers of Christmas into something sinister.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
More so than the original.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, the original. It's kind of like the original Halloween.
Like it's cool that it's set on Christmas, but doesn't
need to be set on Christmas, you know what I mean. Like,
it's when you think of the aesthetics of the movie,
the style of the movie. I mean, there's there's a
couple of things. I mean, there's the famous sequence where
you have the Christmas caroler, the Christmas carollers while Billy
(14:56):
I think he's killing Margo Kidder. Right, So you have
key sequences, and you know that definitely helps, you know,
make the movie memorable, and it makes it, you know,
it gives it a real purpose of keeping it around, right,
It preserves its shelf life quite a bit by being
one of the best Christmas horror movies. But like, when
(15:18):
I think back to this movie, I think, you know,
to to you know, bloody candy canes and and Christmas
cookies made of flesh. So I think this is a
little more subversive, which doesn't help its palatability. I'm not
(15:39):
saying that people that people should should want to see
this kind of stuff and associate it with Christmas, but
I respect it. I respect it in that regard.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I think there's definitely a level of respect I have
for for not only the attempt that was made, but
for some of the good things we did get out
of this movie. I think what you said there about
how the movie looks, I think there's a few parts
that it goes a little bit far, maybe in the
color department.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Maybe the number of eyes, the number of.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Eye shots that too. You know, it's it's I could
see how somebody who wants to hate this would immediately
be like, Oh, this person just doesn't understand what makes
the original Black Christmas great. Yeah, I don't think that
was the case. I do think that there might have
been a few too many references, especially in that case
with the eye shots, especially since like I feel like
(16:32):
the eye shots were so important because you can't see
the guy's face in the original movie, you know, and
in this one you see it pretty clearly several times.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And I can never remember what he looks like.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, it's it's funny because when I watched it this time,
there were several times where I kept seeing his face
and I'm like, this guy's gross, Like this guy's disgusting,
and then I would see him again, I'd be like, Oh,
this guy's disgusting. But that's how I felt about most
of this movie, if I'm being honest, Like you know,
I think like four times in my notes, I put
this movie is disgusting all caps, because it is incredible.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Doesn't stop because we have we have a cast of
very beautiful women. I know they this has one of
the most stacked casts of these slash.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Remais they one could say.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So, because and it's kind of like daised and confused,
where like a lot of these people are famous now
they weren't at the time, at least I don't think
they were. I don't think Mary Elizabeth wins said was
famous at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I think this was before most of her big stuff
if I'm thinking.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Back, Yeah, I don't know if this was before or
after Final Destination three, but you know, I mean she's
I think Scott Pilgrim an Onward is when she same
year really blows up.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So that was two thousand and six as well.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Okay, So yeah, you have her her beginnings and like everybody,
she's starts. She's starting out in horror movies and horror flicks. Yeah,
then you have you have Katie Cassidy, right.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah, Katie Cats She's she's top, she gets top billing here.
She is also in the Nightmare on Elm Street remake
often often another often hated remake, actually much less appreciated
than this one. If you look at letterboxed by Letterboxed users.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
It's because, yeah, nightmre on Elm Street twenty ten doesn't
have the defenders this movie has. Like this movie has defenders.
It probably it probably didn't at the time, but you know,
you you wouldn't be hard pressed to find someone who
who appreciates this movie. You know, maybe they maybe they
(18:47):
call it a guilty pleasure. But especially after that, after
that most recent Black Christmas movie, I saw a lot
of appreciation for this more more in the frame of like,
oh my god, I can't believe Christmas two thousand and
six isn't the worst Black Christmas remake anymore, you know
a lot of stuff like that. But no, it's you know,
(19:07):
like any of these movies. You know, now that we
have the Internet, you can you can find anybody to
defend anything. But the following for for this movie is
is significantly larger than the twenty ten Nightmare on Elm Street.
And I'm still looking at the rest of the cast here.
(19:29):
You know, Michelle Trachtenberg, I, you know, forgot like she
was probably the biggest name in the cast at the time. Yeah,
I would probably say so, because she was all she
was already in Buffy, Yes she was, and she had
been in a couple of the.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Like she I believe she was. She was in euro Trip,
which which was fairly I mean fairly popular when it
came out. It wasn't not beloved, but fairly popular when
it came out, you know, during that era of the
sex comedies that our buddies Tony and Gabe love so much.
And uh, yeah, she she I like her a lot.
(20:11):
I still like her a lot. She she gets a
lot of trolls these days online, but she's she's real cool.
I like her. In this there was a Lacy Chabert,
Chabert Chabert who maybe Chabe Chabert. I don't know how
to pronounce it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I don't care the present to me now, Like, yeah,
I don't know why I hear about this woman as
often as I do, Like, but anytime she makes a
Hallmark movie, it's splashed all over my Twitter feed. Yeah, Like,
why is everybody so excited about the new Lacy Chabert movie.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
She was in Mean Girls, and you know, people like
mean Girls and.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Movie girls, but you know, yeah, that's just uh and
Mean Girls was before this, so you know, you get
another big name you have a for for this movie,
a stacked cast. But I think people people are almost
mad at this movie because I feel like, in their eyes,
(21:11):
they waste these young actresses. Yeah, because if this movie
is following the conventional wisdom of the time, it's to
make all of your characters as bitchy as possible, Like
that was that was the mode. But you gotta remember
in Black Christmas, all of these sorority sisters are fucking brats.
(21:32):
I think Olivia Hussy is the only one. And obviously
Margo Kidder because we love Margo Kitder. But Olivia Hussey's
the one who's not, like I think written to be irritating.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, and by the way, like we'd be remiss if
we did not bring up that. Andrew Martin, who played
fill in the original movie, is missus Mac in this movie,
which is cool. I like that. I like that you
have a little bit of a of a callback there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
There's a lot of funds, there's a lot of fun
Easter eggs before Easter eggs were the thing, you know,
just clear, clear love for the original movie. Not sure
if that love translates into understanding how or why the
original movie works. But that's always been a weird argument
to me about about a remake, like this remake is
(22:23):
not gonna work in the same way that the original work.
That that's impossible.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It's a hard balance, I think, because like you have
to be different enough to stand out. You know, if
you're just a shot for shot, nobody's gonna go see
it or nobody's gonna care. But at the same time,
you know, if you're too different, then suddenly you don't
understand what made the original great. I will defend this
movie in that I believe they were They did understand
for the most part. They just went maybe a little
(22:51):
too far with some of the references and they meant
and they definitely went out of control with where they
went for the direction of this movie, uh, story wise.
But I do think they had an understanding of what
made the original great. I just don't know that they
hit every mark of making it different. Uh. And I
think that's going to be the story of of our
(23:11):
final verdicts once we get there for this is that
it's just not quite there. Honestly, I'll be honest. There's
a couple of other things that I want to mention,
but like, I don't know how much I have to
say about this movie, Like, you know, like I thought
I would have a lot to say, but I feel
like some of the stuff, most of the stuff I remember,
I remember because I didn't love it, and I don't
(23:34):
remember anything else. Like I don't can't tell you any
of the characters names. I don't know if they're the
same as the original. I can't remember I can't remember
some of the story beats, I can't remember some of
the kills. But the stuff I do remember I want
to get your take on because one of them is Agnes.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I was, just like you, you know, that's that's something
that needs to be addressed when you talk about it
needs to be Black Christmas two thousand and six. I'm
kind of all for Agnes. It's it's a very blunt move.
I mean, you know, once she shows up, like, there's
(24:11):
Agnes and she looks almost like Zelda from pat Cemetery.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Uh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Which was It's very interesting to again see tropes that
are okay sometimes and really off putting to people other times,
like you know, casting a man to play Agnes. Let's
let's not discuss anything related to transgenderism. That is not
(24:42):
going to be involved in our Black Christmas two thousand
and six discussion. But just in terms of cinematically, you know,
the trick of you know, putting a man in Dragh
to creep out the audience. I don't think anyone is
bothered by by that being used in Pet Cemetery. I know,
(25:06):
Zelda is still an icon to a whole generation, you know,
a whrror icon to a bunch of gen xers and millennials.
But man, people do not fucking dig it in this movie.
And I don't know. I don't know exactly where I
stand on it. All I can tell you is that
(25:26):
if they wanted to to weird me out, they did
and not because you know, seeing a man in women's
clothing is is weird because it goes back to the cinematography,
like the angles they use and the way they directed
this actor like my Daddy's here, you know, like it's
(25:50):
like a chill But yeah, it's a weird out. It's
not unsettling in the way that their original was. And
it's not really unsettling in the way that you know,
you want your your your fun holiday slasher movie. It's
it's icky, It's it's kind of you know, roadkill e
(26:13):
in that way.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I I agree, Uh, I can't agree that I love
the Agnes thing if I'm being honest, And look, this
just comes back down to I was for it before
it there's a distinction to be bad. I I don't
love it, and I can't say I'm for it either.
I My biggest thing with this movie is like I'm
not I don't. I don't hate when you want to
(26:39):
give a character a backstory, it's it's actually a task
that I think, Uh, it takes a lot of guts
to try to pull off and just try to pull
off successfully. It's it's a hard move, uh. And I
applaud them for trying to go that direction with this movie.
I just don't think really any of it worked for me.
And Agnes is like the perfect example of really why
(27:02):
I think the character was very much there as I
think the entire character's existence was for shock value and
story twist, because you know, through much of the movie,
we're just led to believe that Billy's the one that's
doing the killing by himself and everything is you know
that that's how the story is progressing, and and that's cool,
and you know, we get these stories. And I do
(27:22):
like how if you're going to do that reveal, you
splice the story of what happened before throughout the movie.
I think that made it work a little better because
then it's fresh on your mind and it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I think they earned it, you know. I think if
it's something that I felt like they just threw in
there at the end, you know, if they're doing this
typical black Christmas remake and then they throw in this
twist at the end, I don't know how it would
have landed. But I think they earned it. I mean,
the whole structure of this of this narrative has been
(27:54):
reworked to earn it. If you don't dig it, you
don't dig it. But right, I think all of the
all of the choices that people questioned about this movie
has a real intentionality, has forethought. And you know, it
(28:17):
was a it was a risk, it was it was
a gamble. I think Glenn Morgan knew perfectly well that
he was taking a risk with all of this, with
just the whole concept of remaking Black Christmas. But now
if this movie came out, you know, in a timeline
where the twoy nineteen Black Christmas doesn't come out, this
(28:41):
is the remake we get. I think this movie would
be championed in the terrifier age. I think this movie
would go down pretty well.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It's it's brutal. I mean it's brutal. It's not just brutal,
it's like it's.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
There's a word beyond all of all of that that
I'm trying to get to now, brutal, not even mean spirited,
just gross.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Very Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
There there's no safety blanket to this movie, which is
something that I think we we love about, you know,
holiday horror is that there is a cozy atmosphere to it.
And I'm a huge believer in that horror movies can
totally be cozy. That's something that I said about Rob
(29:27):
Zombies Halloween two, which is kind of a baffling statement
on the face of it, but uh, but I really
believe it, and I put that in print. But this movie, like,
it's like it's kind of the worst because it takes
things that usually make you cozy and completely violates them,
(29:49):
which is where people get mad at this movie, and
where I'm saying, like, you know what, you have the balls,
no pun intended, you know, in this in this Agnes
Black Christmas, you had the balls to go out and
do that. And you know, at a time when horror
(30:11):
movies were getting more violent but less transaggressive. I do
applot that.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I applaud it for sure. You know, there are things
that I do apploud about this movie. I mean, I've
said it before and I'll say it again. The guts
of this movie really did surprise me. I do want
to go through a few of my notes, yeah, for
a certain part of this movie, just to give you
an idea of where my head was at when rewatching this.
So I said, some good slasher frights. I thought that
(30:40):
Lacy's death, Lacey Shepherd's death in this movie was actually
like pretty well done as far as like a scare factor.
I didn't think this movie was very scary. I actually
think that the original Black Christmas it does unsettle me
and freak me out quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Still, the Original Black Christmas is up there with classic
horror that still scares me.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
I think it's I think it's one one of the
scariest slasher movies period, truly.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, the classic to scary ratio is like, yeah, really
really strong with the original Black Christmas. I would argue
that's probably something that really held it back. It was
probably something that audiences were not ready for in nineteen
seventy four.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Okay, yeah, to say the least. But yeah, So I
said some good slasher frights with Lacey's death, and then
I said, you dumb bitches bundle up and go outside.
Uh skate kill okay Uh? Then dot dot dot agnes uh,
followed by my Daddy's here for fuck's sake, then please
(31:39):
stop showing them so much. Uh. I by the time
we got to that reveal now. I want to say this,
Before this viewing, I thought of this movie very neutral.
I like to joke about it, I like to do things,
and sort of my feelings are so mixed right now,
(31:59):
Like I've never caung out of a viewing so confused
about what I'm gonna say at the end of an
episode because I was so upset that I was watching
what I was watching when we got to that part
of the movie. And then immediately after that we get
some like genuinely creepy visuals of Billy, like like maneuvering
(32:19):
in between walls and stuff, and like it's it looks good,
it looks creepy, and it's unsettling and stuff. But I
feel like, again, like this movie I think has a
hard time balancing good story and moments with good slasher moments.
And I don't think it has that struggle throughout the
entire movie. I do think there are moments, especially when
(32:41):
we get a lot of the stuff with the girls
and and you know, their interactions in the house. I
do think a lot of that works within the context
of the time that it came out. But I don't know,
am I missing something like that? That whole sequence where
Agnes shows up and my daddy's here and he comes
Like I just was like, I literally probably four times
(33:02):
just went for fuck's sake because I didn't remember it
and it didn't age well for me.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
If I'm being honest, This movie didn't get eye rolls
for me. It got like moments of like I wouldn't
have done that, or was that one of them? Like,
hey man, where are you going with this?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I definitely have a few moments of that, some maybe
some bewilderment slash for amusement. But it's funny because like
I'm really attached to the original Black Christmas, Like I
cherished that movie. You would think I would be pretty
protective of it in a similar way I'm protective of
(33:43):
Texas Chainsaw Masker or how a lot of people are
protective of Halloween. And you know I should be maybe
offended or at least really questioning the judgment of what's
going on here.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Maybe it's because you know, there is a clear love
for the original. Maybe it's because you know, Bob Clark
put his name on this thing, so you know, it's
hard to say that it goes completely against uh, you know,
the original movies vision. I don't know. I just I
look at remakes now is not like, oh, we're remaking
(34:23):
the original, but it's like a what if, Like what
if instead, you know, Black Christmas was done as this,
you know, almost hitchcocky and thriller mixed with you know,
really provocative kind of obscene phone callar paranoia of the seventies.
You know, what if it? What if it was now
(34:44):
you know, the most depraved version of a Christmas story
that you could possibly testing.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, yeah, I know, we've we've we've covered a lot
of stuff this movie, and there's some stuff that I
don't think we've talked about that I don't know that
we need to dedicate a lot of time to which
is like.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
We also say something about the kills because this occurred
to me while you were talking about it, because I
am wondering, like, why doesn't this movie get more credit
for the kills? Like I'm not a I'm not big
on kills, Like that's rarely something I talk about, Like,
but you know, I know it matters to a lot
of people, and it does on paper, it seems like
this movie should be remembered pretty fondly for that, But
(35:27):
people are not keen on this movie's kills, and I
think it's because the kills have too much to do
with eyes, and eyes are a no go for a
lot of people. I'm not going to call it a taboo,
but like we all hate the idea of people poking
our eye, dude.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And there's another movie that came out this same year
called Sino Evil, which was also about with it had
a lot to do with eyes, and it was just like,
I don't know what two thousand and six is obsession
with eyeballs was. I think, I think what you said
there is is kind of true, but I also think
it doesn't do enough to be cartoonish, you know, like
(36:07):
like the Terrifier movies are kind of beloved because it's
disgusting and it makes people feel sick, right, but there
there's this over the top nature to them, to where
like if my brother came to me and he has
and he's he's got no interest in horror movies, he's
got you know, we could not be different personality wise,
But he came to me and he was like, I
don't really care about the first two, but I want
to go see Terrifier three. And I was like, you
can go see Terrifier three. I was like, but it's
(36:29):
I was like, you know, if you're not ready for
this cartoonish, over the top violence, like it's not going
to appeal to you. And even though there's some like
really good gore effects in the Terrifier movies, it still
has that sort of disconnect that you don't, I think,
get as much of in this movie. It's over the top,
don't get me wrong, but it doesn't feel disconnected enough
that you're like, in Terrifier you're kind of like laughing
(36:52):
as you go. You in this one, you're just kind
of like, oh my god, that's fucking I'm laughing now.
But I laugh because that's how I feel uncomfortable. I
feel uncomfortable by laughing. So, uh, you know, I'm not
gonna say this movie went too far for me in
the entire thing, but I am gonna say that there
(37:13):
are moments in this that, like I just would have
preferred to not have in my slasher movie.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Are you thinking about about the incest? Is the incest
one of the thing?
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Inst is up there? Incest is up there? I mean,
like you know, like you know, and I've said this,
like I am not like I'm not totally gen Z
about sex and movies, you know, like I'm you know,
gen Z kind of doesn't want that anymore, or maybe
Jen Alpha is kind of that way. They're they're just
sort of this like conservative nature. And I don't mean
politically conservative nature. I mean socially conservative nature about sex
(37:44):
and movies nowadays. And I'm not one of those people,
but I am one that if you go too far,
I get uncomfortable and.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
That this is categorically different. I mean, when people are
defending sex and movies, we're not defending incestible.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Well in that movie, I I get really uncomfortable with.
And it's something like that. I've said before that that,
specifically because of the asylum scene, I prefer Rob Zombie
theatrical to the director's cut. I gave the director's cut
to an old coworker of mine about eight years ago
forgetting that that scene was in the movie, because I
don't like to remember it, and this movie, I totally
(38:19):
forgot that that scene happened, and when we got there,
my jaw dropped and I didn't want to watch it anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
But they don't, Yeah, but they don't show the incest.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
They don't linger on it, which I appreciate, but there's
something do you agree that there's something still like really
uncomfortable about the way that they fill through it?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Like of course, I mean that was the intention. I mean,
I yeah, Uh, if you're saying that you know there
is a line in the sand that you just should
not cross, you know, that's one thing. But uh, they
broached a taboo. They knew they were broaching a taboo.
(38:59):
It's justified the story. It's fucking gross, it's weird as hell.
That was you know completely there are artisticate intention So
I think it comes down to you know, your personal
boundaries when it comes to the movies that you watch,
(39:19):
and how well the movie prepared you for it, Like
it didn't come out of nowhere, because this movie was
already deeply, deeply uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
And they set up a lot of stuff with like
this odd relationship between the mother and the son and
sort of the things that were happening in the stepfather situation,
and like there was there was, there was not. It
didn't punch in the face as far as the story goes.
Maybe I could see if somebody was like me and
they were just kind of punched by the by how
(39:50):
like how you could show so little and make me
so uncomfortable?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Still, but usually we call that good filmmaking, you know.
I mean that's no.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I will say this like it wasn't my thing as
far as like, but I don't. I don't hold it
as a detraction from the movie because it did what
it was supposed to do for me. So like, even
though it's it would hurt my rewatchability for it, it's
not going to hurt my final opinion. Other things have
done that enough. So wow, Okay, And and by the way,
I still don't know where I'm going to land, and
we're getting closer to that final verdict, then I don't
(40:20):
really know what I'm gonna say there.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yet, So why don't you tell me the things that
actually do hurt the movies score for you, not things
that made you uncomfortable, but things that you think are
problems with this movie.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
So some of the stuff that makes me uncomfortable is
stuff that I think does hurt because I think some
of it is just too far, like when I say
cartoonish violence, Like I do think there's a value to
being over the top, but I do think that some
of the moments. It's a specific moment for me that
doesn't work is the cookies. I think that's one that
(40:56):
was put in there to be a shock value and
to make you uncomfortable. That I just felt didn't work.
I did feel that.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Okay, I think the idea of of him making the
Christmas cookies is fine, but yeah, the shot of him
eating it, yeah, I did.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I think that's where it went too far, truthfully, Like,
I think one thing that I think would would have
been really cool. I had this sort of idea, So
I don't I have to bring up Rob Zombie again
for this, because when you listen to Rob Zombie's music,
he has a version of the House of a Thousand
Corpses song that has like a like almost like a
(41:40):
like a prologue. I guess it's it's got like a
little section before the song where it it Amos is
almost playing like news clippings of police after they found
the house, and there's like, oh, there's like boiling body
parts on the stove, and there's all this stuff, and
it's stuff that like, in my head, I kind of
wish we at least saw in The Devil's Rejects, you know,
(42:01):
when they come to the house and they break everything up.
Like I wish that we could at least see them
discovering some of these things. Like that scene, to me,
could have worked in this you know where, like they
come in and they arrest him. Maybe he's doing some
weird shit in the corner. Maybe they don't show it,
but then they but then you know, like they don't
show a close up of his mouth doing it, and
(42:22):
then maybe you know, they look in the oven or something.
You know, something could have been done to make it
more measured tempered, but they didn't do that. But I
want to say again, like uncomfortable is fine if you
want to go that route, even if it's not for me.
I'll appreciate that. There are directions though that I just
don't appreciate. I think ultimately, I do think that the
(42:45):
story the background was a miss I appreciate that they
did it, but it does detract for me because we
do spend a lot of time in this asylum, We
do spend a lot of time with him and his
mom in this weird relationship, and I just don't think
it serves this movie well. I don't think it serves
the story of Black Christmas.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Very well.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Now, if you want to go a different route with
the killer and do a Michael Myers route right where
they escape from an asylum, having a scene where they
do so is fine, I think. But I think they
just went too far. And I think Agnes is a
perfect example for that. It was it was too much
backstory that you brought later that just didn't work when
you introduced it, and it didn't work when if he
(43:25):
would have killed Agnes, I would have gotten it, you know,
because then it's like, Okay, he's clearly murderous. He's clearly
you know, but Agnes is alive so she can serve
the purpose at the end of the movie. And I
don't know, it was too much for me, too much
backstory that didn't work, And I truthfully, I want to
be fair. I have that same criticism somewhat of Rob
Zombie's Halloween. I just think there were some missteps in
(43:48):
that backstory. I think the same for this one, just
a little stronger.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I guess what I'm going to differ is that I
I actually appreciate the way it was integrated, Like, yes,
we get too many details, but I thought it helped
the flow of the movie. I think if the movie
had just been this Christmas night in that sorority house
with these characters, that would hurt the movie. You needed
(44:16):
something to balance it out. It's fair because that's not
the experience of the original Black Christmas. The original Black Christmas.
Is this Really it escalates from you know, from a
murder mystery or you know, a a disappearance mystery to
you know, being a proto slasher, right, and you need
(44:39):
you need either to escalate things or to balance things.
And I think as you know, as gross, as weird,
as maybe misguided as it was, you know, there there
is a balance.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
And I kind of wish, you know, could have maybe
looked at this and taken some cues and been inspired
to retool his approach to Halloween a little bit, because
he famously wanted to make two Halloween remakes, one just
for Michael's childhood and then a Halloween remake, and obviously
he wasn't allowed to do that, so he just kind
(45:17):
of put the two together. I think he would have
been better served to take some inspiration from that, not
not have explicit incest or anything like that. As far
as like a screenplay, a story structure approach. I actually
appreciate this, and you know, we can go back and
forth on the content of that backstory, and I'm not
(45:40):
going to die on the hill that this movie needed
all of that. But as far as rewatchability goes, I'm
never going to rewatch this as much as the original
Black Christmas. Like, let's be clear, this is no Black
Christmas seventy four. No, But I would put this up
again favorably against most of those you know, remake slashers
(46:06):
of the time. I would.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I can't. I can't. I can't fully go there. But
one thing I do want to praise before we get
to final verdicts here is is definitely I do appreciate
not just how they did the kill at the end,
how Billy meets his end, but I do appreciate the shot.
I think that's one of the most underrated things from
this movie, is like, is the visual aspect of it.
(46:33):
I do think there's there's areas where it doesn't work,
where maybe they go a little far to do you know,
up close Dutch angle on somebody right like, but I
do think that that ending shot of showing our main
character with the light projecting the shadow of an impaled
Billy on the ceiling above her is one of the
(46:55):
best shots of the two thousands horror. If I'm being
honest with you, it just fully worked for me. And
it took an ending that I was already kind of
sour on, like Okay, now they're loosing the hospital, like okay,
all right, let's to okay, you know what that was
worth it. I was a little too quick to judge it.
I was a little too quick to be like, all right,
what the fuck are we doing here? Because you know,
(47:16):
that last shot was worth it to me.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
You know what's a good ending when Scream four basically
borrows it? Just Okay, I get that Scream four is
a satire, so it's not stealing. They're sad arising. But yeah,
I mean the final kill, the final beat, it's a
(47:40):
pretty perfect note to end on. It's kind of like,
I don't know, I think the rob Zombie Halloween has
a similar thing where you know, it's so uneven throughout
most of it, but yeah, but I love the final
the final note that they end on. Yah, so it
(48:01):
kind of like washes that away. I mean, that's how
important endings are. And I think this movie nails. Maybe
not the climax because you know that's where you get
into the Agnes reveal. But it nails that final the
final scare.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
I think that's fair to say. I I appreciate, I
appreciate the artistry that was put into one thing.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Okay before I guess we're approaching final verdicts and I
realized I haven't brought up something that did bother me.
Don't need this sex tape subplot.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
That was dumb. That was basically everything with that actor
who he's in a lot of stuff, Oliver Hudson. I
mean he could have been he could have been completely
cut from the movie, and I think the movie would
have been fine. His whole character is. I mean, there's
there's kind of two red herrings that you kind of see,
you know where, like you think that the movie's gonna
(48:53):
swarve you. I think he's one of them, and the
I can't remember the name of the weird the weird
girl whose head was cut off in her car, but
she was also kind of a red herring. You kind
of just think that she's going to mean something when
she she ends up not meaning much. But yeah, totally
feel you didn't work unnecessary drama, Like the movie didn't
even need that at that part. You know, it comes
(49:15):
kind of right after like some some pretty decently sized
moments as far as the story is concerned.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
So yeah, look, all of the drama and all of
the relationships between these main characters, as as as lovely
as all the actresses are. I think they're all excellent actresses,
and you know a lot of them would go on
to do really great work after this. But dead weight
(49:41):
to this movie, that is a hump that this movie
could not cross, is just how insufferable main characters were
in movies at this time. I mean, that's got you know.
That goes from everything from like you know, House of
a Thousand Corpses to I guess the the kids in
(50:04):
the Texas Saints. Some ask remakes are okay, but like
the Friday remake, the Nightmare remake. Yeah, so I don't know,
have we covered everything. Have we said all there is
to be saying?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Is about as much as we could. I'm sure we're missing,
you know, things that people don't like about this, But
I think that opens up a nice little discussion in
the comments. Hopefully, I'd love to hear what people do
and don't like about this movie. But speaking of do like,
I'd love to hear your final remarks, your final verdict.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, so this has been an interesting discussion. You know,
a lot of times I'm not exactly sure how the
discussion will go and what my role in the discussion
will be. And in this case, I turned out to
be more on the defense of the movie, like I
turned out I guess to to, you know, want to
(50:55):
defend it right, found more things to praise than I
was expecting. Look, this is not a this is not
a classic in its own right. It's not a hidden gem.
I'm not shocked that that, you know, people rejected this
(51:16):
en mass and I'm you know, I would be surprised
if this had the reputation of a Texas Chainsaw Masacer,
because there's just there's a Texas chants On Masacer remake.
I mean, because there's no wide appeal even in the
horror fandom that this movie can offer. But what I
appreciate and why I think this movie kind of needs
(51:39):
to exist needed to come out in two thousand and six,
is it was actually a transgressive movie in a time
where I thought the horror genre again, it was getting
it was getting violent again, it was getting mean, spirited again.
This is after Saw Hostile Devil's Rejects, but with rare exception,
(52:00):
I feel like Slashers still had lost their transgressive identity.
You know, going back to Black Christmas, it's not just
creepy and unsettling. I mean, it's it's a provocative movie.
The main subplot of that film is a young woman
wanting to get an abortion, and this is like two
years after Roe V. Wade has passed, and you know,
(52:23):
that's that to add something more substantial to the discourse
than what this movie has to offer. But it's still
broached taboos and took some big fucking swings in the
story department. Thematically, I think it earned most of its
(52:44):
more controversial elements, and I love when a film can
do that, when it can when it can earn that
and not just employ them for shock value. And again,
I think this might be actually the best horror Christmas
movie insofar as subverting Christmas and taking the iconography of
(53:05):
Christmas and turning it into something sinister. And that's not
something that I need all of my Christmas horror movies
to do, but I need at least one to do that,
So this movie has its place that's my main defense
of it. It has its place. I'm glad it exists,
and I'm if I am to watch any Black Christmas remake,
(53:28):
I'm going to watch this one. So yeah, I guess
I come down to you know, it's an actually good
it's it's a hair above not that bad.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Okay, good to hear. Glad you'll land on that side here.
I feel a little less bad for my criticisms now
that you said that. But yeah, I mean, look this movie.
You know, there's a lot to appreciate. There's a lot
to applaud. Definitely love the guts and the visual is there,
but and the blood and guts. Truthfully, I think it's
(54:03):
it's done pretty well, but ultimately it wasn't enough for me.
This time, I will come down on that this movie
is that bad. I think at two point six is
a fair rating for it. I don't think it deserves
hatred like so many kind of throw at it. But
I feel that way about most movies that I don't like.
I don't I don't see myself rewatching this soon, but
(54:24):
I don't think it's one that I would never rewatch again.
I think I give it another shot, but see if
some of the things land a little better, But for now,
I think I think landing on it's that bad. I
think at two point six is fair. I think i'll, i'll, i'll.
When I rate this on letter box, I think I'll
give it about a two point five. So I think
I think that's fair in my in my mind.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
And I would probably give it a three.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Okay, yeah, that's that's that's fair.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
But I will say it's pretty commendable that I'm coming
out for it at all when it's it's playing around
with one of my favorite horror movies and taken a
lot a lot of Liberty's while while doing it. So
you got you gotta create it. Grade it on a
curve that way when you think of how bad this
(55:12):
movie could have been that it's it's a great film.
It's an accomplishment, right right, But as a standalone, you know,
movie watching experience, it's you know it, it squeaks by
with an endorsement from.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Me, right, I feel that I feel that one hundred percent.
It's uh yeah, it's it's I'll say this too, and
I want to I want to be clear about this,
Like Christmas horror is kind of limited for me. I
prefer the more wholesome Christmas experience. I just had a
lot of good Christmases when I was a kid, so
you know, I I when I think of Christmas, I
(55:52):
like to think of the happier stuff. But uh, you
know that that's still I I you know, I do
think that, uh, there's a value you for this movie
for some I just don't think it reached quite where
it needed to for me. And that's I still recommend
that people check it out if they can stomach it.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Well, for me, all of my Christmases have been have
been defined by me being terrorized by you know, a
faceless killer. So this movie, really that's very fair with me. Yeah,
well my Christmas is we're nothing like this movie. Let's
put that on I hope.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
So yeah, I hope so there would there'd be some
therapy needed there, I think if if it was anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
All right, But okay, thanks again for everyone who is
joining us again. You know we haven't recorded in a
little bit, so it is really nice to be back
in the saddle. And you know, if you wish that
we were talking about a more wholesome Christmas movie to
celebrate the holidays, well I think you'll enjoy our next
(56:56):
discussion about a very very different kind of Christmas movie.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Incredible. I don't think it could be any more different.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Although ironically it might be as upsetting to me as
this was to you. So we'll we'll, we'll see how
how it holds up.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
I will. I'm happy and excited to see how that
goes in the meantime, Folks, again, hope you enjoyed this episode.
Leave a like, leave a comment, share it with a
friend if you if you'd like, that would be great support.
But if you'd like to support us even further, that
badmedia dot com or Patreon dot com, slash that bad
media where we have a ton of perks and exciting
(57:34):
opportunities for you to support that bad media and all
of our current and future endeavors. Again, thank you for
checking out the episode, and mister Tye, would you take
us out my friend?
Speaker 2 (57:47):
Well, happy holidays to everyone. You know, it's uh, it's
been a weird year. It's been a long, weird year.
We're coming to the end and it's a it's gonna
be nice to to reminisce and to settle into the
holiday season. So I hope you guys join us for that.
Yeah and yeah we look forward to the start of
(58:09):
the new year. But until then, you know, this is
this is Gabe, this is Connor, and this is this
is not that bad media slash. No, this is not
that bad slash, that bad media signing out until we
(58:31):
changed our names again. We're out of their name or
whatever we do.
Oh boy, oh me, oh my, the boys are back
in town. We're here. We're gonna make another episode. This
is this is exciting to be able to sit down
here again and and talk to be two white guys
in front of a microphone. What do you think?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I think we need to start complaining about wokeness more.
I think the paradigm of and podcasting is pretty clear.
Let me let me say this.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
I don't give a shit about like this.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Let me say this. Let's talk about black Christmas before
the woke mob turns it into black holiday happy holidays.
Isn't one Christmas still a thing? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I don't hear about it as much, but I think
there are obviously more pressing things to make everybody afraid of.
You know, who knows the thing in.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
The holiday season just started. I fully expect a lot
of people with too much time in their hands to
start complaining about how Starbucks doesn't put Merry Christmas on
on their coffee cups. But yeah, and you know, I
think the the woke label is interesting with this franchise
(01:22):
because I think one of the most like hotly furiously
criticized movies of like woke cinema is the Black Christmas
remake from a couple of years ago, which we are
not here to talk about. So I don't know why
(01:44):
I uh why I decided to open the episode this way,
other than this is the first time we're actually recording
since since the election that we just had, So I
think we have to I know, I have to process
this before I start talking about UH slasher movies again.
But but here we are talking about not the not
(02:05):
the woke Black Christmas, but arguably the opposite, the most
politically incorrect fuck the slasher of of our lifetimes, right
of of the post UH post screen era. This to
me was was like a pre vicious return to the
(02:29):
no no, we're we're here to We're here to to
traumatize and to scar and to provoke.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And did they ever to piss off?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Yeah, boy did they ever were? Of course, Uh, based
on on what you're hearing right now, we are talking
about Black Christmas or Black Xmas if you want to,
if you want to say that from two thousand and six.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
This is a I'm gonna call it a reimagining of
the original film, not quite UH remake doesn't feel right
in this case. Directed by Glenn Morgan. Like I said,
released in two thousand and six, this has a two
point six out of five on letterbox, so well within
the bounds of this show. So, you know, I want
(03:12):
to talk about our histories with this movie briefly, you know,
in a moment here. But you and I, before this
show started, actually collaborated on a little episode of your
old show.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Yeah, that's right, that's right now.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
I want to bring that up because before that I
had seen Black Christmas, but I had not paid close
attention to charge about the original original Black Christmas. These days,
I hold it as one of the greatest slashers of
all time. It is one of my favorites. I actually
everybody knows I'm a huge Halloween guy. Actually prefer Black
Christmas to the original Halloweeny by a decent margin.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
So let me say this. I think that there's a
pipeline from that kind of casual observer of Black Christmas
is to super fan to you know, devotee in. My
relationship with the original comes at an interesting time where
(04:12):
I was I was really going out of my way
to to try to to find the slasher classics, and
by that I mean the the halt like the Halloween peers,
you know, the stuff that was coming out in the
seventies before you know, that genre was kind of uh milked, oversaturated, oversaturated,
(04:38):
and Black Christmas was always championed as as you know,
one of the godfathers of the genre was clearly an
influence on John Carpenter. I don't know if he's ever
said that publicly, but Bob Clark has a story where he,
you know, he meets a young John Carpenter and John
(04:58):
Carpenter tells him how much he I was Black Christmas,
and apparently John asked him, well, what are you going
to do a sequel? Bob Clark said, well, you know,
I I'm not planning on doing a sequel, but if
I did do a sequel, I would probably have Billy
escape from a mental asylum, come back to the sorority
house on Halloween and call it Halloween. So who knows
(05:23):
how much of that is true, But silistically, thematically, this
is this original move is not only an influence on
John Carpenter's Halloween. I just think it's like a huge
like the text Chaine I asker, just a huge shift
in the genre, even though people didn't realize it at
(05:43):
the time. It was not a huge success like TCM
or like Halloween. It it had to build that cult following.
But I would say it's like the velvet underground of Slashers, like,
it doesn't have as many fans by I think if
you are a fan, you are passionate about this. I
don't think there's any you know, just casual appreciation for
(06:06):
the original Black Christmas.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
Well, you know, a good Internet friend, Damien Maffy from
the Strangers Prey at Night, is a huge fan of
this movie. I once told him, I hope my wife
loves me as much as you love Black Christmas, which
I still hope is the truth. But it's funny that
you mentioned the whole escaping from an asylum thing. Most
of what you just said there checks a lot of
the boxes of Black Christmas from two thousand and six,
(06:29):
does it not?
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Yeah? No, I think correct me if I'm wrong. But
I think Glenn Morgan said that much of his many
of his ideas for this remake came from backstory that
had been laid out by Bob Clark. I don't know
if he's talking about like interviews he saw, or I
think Bob Clark was directly involved in the production of this,
(06:50):
he was a producer an executive producer. So, you know,
even though this is something that is such a sticking
point for fans of the original, people who love the
original but despise this remake, apparently it is loyal to
(07:12):
the original backstory and the original vision of Black Christmas,
just the parts that we did not see, and some
people would say we didn't see those parts for a reason,
which we can get into. But this comes out before
Rob Zombies Halloween and is an interesting contrast because you
have two you know, purposefully mysterious villains who are really
(07:38):
getting a full origin story and kind of become the
main characters in a way. But with Black Christmas, it's
a little more balanced as an actual slash removing because
you know, they interspice these flashback scenes with actual you know,
with scenes of actual Black Christmas. You know, right, It's
(07:59):
not like you spend the first half with Billy growing up,
you know, going on as killing Spreen. Then you know
the back half is all just a Black Christmas remake.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
Yeah, there's there's an argument for why both of those
would work in their perspective stories. For sure, we start
out this movie in the Asylum, which I think was
an interesting choice. I don't know how I feel about
it watching this movie back this time, I'll be honest,
it felt it felt a little strange to me this
time around.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Well, this movie is wonky as hell.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
It's out there to you know what. I want to
say this, it's really interesting you brought up Halloween from
two thousand and seven, because I feel pretty strongly that
this movie is everything people think Rob Zombies movies are.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Well, we can, we can. Okay, let's take the perspective
away from Rob for a second, and I think, like,
let's let's see where like slasher movies are by two
thousand and six, and we are in the midst of
the remake craze. Yeah, Halloween, Friday Nightmare, those haven't come
(09:13):
out yet. So there's there's this kind of interesting effect
where it's almost like the the timeline of the original
slasher movies that we're coming out is being recreated, because
it starts with you know, Texas Saints HWN Masker, and
then you get some some other kind of like cult classics,
(09:34):
and by that I mean like z grade Slasher is
getting remade. Like I don't know how many people needed
a prom Night remake and then the the Big Three
are kind of saved for last. But in the middle
of that is Black Christmas being remade by Glenn Morgan
of The X Files. Do I have that right?
Speaker 1 (09:57):
I believe so.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Yeah. Now, he had made another feature before this, another remake,
although one I think that's definitely held in a higher regard.
He remade Willard with Crispin Glover and it did not
succeed at the box office, and Glenn Morgan when he
was making this movie said if Black Christmas didn't succeed,
(10:21):
then he would probably never make another feature film again,
And all these years later, Black Christmas is his last
feature film. Now I'm not sure how popular the original
Black Christmas was at this time, like how many people
wanted to see this, not knowing about the original, not
having seen it. I bet a lot of people saw
(10:43):
this as just its own thing, and I think those
people also rejected it at the time because let's compare
it more to the Texas Shaintsaw Masker remake, which I
think was like the kind of templar that most of
these remakes were trying to follow. And it's uh, it
(11:07):
flies in the face of the of the wisdom, you know,
the conventional wisdom. I think I.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Would say so. I would say so, I honestly, like
I thought about Texas Chainsaw Masacre at the beginning quite
a few times watching this movie. It's there's some there's
some choices that are quite similar to that movie. But
I want to ask you, when you watch this one,
do you so? A lot of times remakes get accused
(11:36):
of having let's say, some some ill will towards the
original film. Uh, we've seen that, and not just in remakes,
but you know, at adapt readaptations of source material, first
time adaptations of source material, there's this content that sometimes
shows up. I'll be honest, like, this is a different
experience than the original Black Christmas, definitively, a completely different experience.
(11:58):
Pretty much everything that they do in Black Christmas nineteen
seventy four they turn on its head and do differently here,
but in a way like I know how people feel
about this movie, but I don't feel it was all
that disrespectful, Like I don't feel like I feel like
it came more from a place of respect in this case, like, hey,
we can't do what they did originally in nineteen seventy four,
(12:21):
So let's do something. Let's do our own thing. Let's
do the best thing that we can do.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yeah. I think the contempt for this movie doesn't really
come down to how it respects the original, how it
respects the lore of the original. I think it just
comes down to how people think that slashers should be
made right, and how the villains of these movies should
(12:49):
be mythologized, and how of the difference between you know,
being a splatterfest and just a barfbag movie, which is
it's a pretty delicate balance, right if you you know,
if you teeter to the other side, uh, you know,
(13:10):
you lose a lot of people, even even gorehounds. So look,
I I'm kind of the one who wanted to bring
this movie to the discussion of this podcast because I
think there's a lot of merit to this film. But
I don't think there's merit in the in the slasher department.
(13:32):
When when I think of what casual audiences want out
of their slasher films, I think it's a yucky movie.
I think, uh, it's you know, anytime you put incest
in your in your Christmas or holiday theme torror movie
(13:53):
probably is a misfire just by itself.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, But man, when I think about the vision of
this movie, when I think about the aura, the actual
atmosphere of this film, I mean, it's kind of unbeatable.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
And it goes back to the to the Rob Zombie comparison. Now,
Like I acknowledge all the blemishes, but this might be
the best Christmas horror movie in actually evoking Christmas to
me and actually turning the you know, the kind of
symbolism of Christmas and the signifiers of Christmas into something sinister.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
More so than the original.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Yeah, the original. It's kind of like the original Halloween.
Like it's cool that it's set on Christmas, but doesn't
need to be set on Christmas, you know what I mean. Like,
it's when you think of the aesthetics of the movie,
the style of the movie. I mean, there's there's a
couple of things. I mean, there's the famous sequence where
you have the Christmas caroler, the Christmas carollers while Billy
(14:56):
I think he's killing Margo Kidder. Right, So you have
key sequences, and you know that definitely helps, you know,
make the movie memorable, and it makes it, you know,
it gives it a real purpose of keeping it around, right,
It preserves its shelf life quite a bit by being
one of the best Christmas horror movies. But like, when
(15:18):
I think back to this movie, I think, you know,
to to you know, bloody candy canes and and Christmas
cookies made of flesh. So I think this is a
little more subversive, which doesn't help its palatability. I'm not
(15:39):
saying that people that people should should want to see
this kind of stuff and associate it with Christmas, but
I respect it. I respect it in that regard.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
I think there's definitely a level of respect I have
for for not only the attempt that was made, but
for some of the good things we did get out
of this movie. I think what you said there about
how the movie looks, I think there's a few parts
that it goes a little bit far, maybe in the
color department.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
Maybe the number of eyes, the number of.
Speaker 1 (16:10):
Eye shots that too. You know, it's it's I could
see how somebody who wants to hate this would immediately
be like, Oh, this person just doesn't understand what makes
the original Black Christmas great. Yeah, I don't think that
was the case. I do think that there might have
been a few too many references, especially in that case
with the eye shots, especially since like I feel like
(16:32):
the eye shots were so important because you can't see
the guy's face in the original movie, you know, and
in this one you see it pretty clearly several times.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
And I can never remember what he looks like.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Yeah, it's it's funny because when I watched it this time,
there were several times where I kept seeing his face
and I'm like, this guy's gross, Like this guy's disgusting,
and then I would see him again, I'd be like, Oh,
this guy's disgusting. But that's how I felt about most
of this movie, if I'm being honest, Like you know,
I think like four times in my notes, I put
this movie is disgusting all caps, because it is incredible.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Doesn't stop because we have we have a cast of
very beautiful women. I know they this has one of
the most stacked casts of these slash.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Remais they one could say.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
So, because and it's kind of like daised and confused,
where like a lot of these people are famous now
they weren't at the time, at least I don't think
they were. I don't think Mary Elizabeth wins said was
famous at the time.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
I think this was before most of her big stuff
if I'm thinking.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Back, Yeah, I don't know if this was before or
after Final Destination three, but you know, I mean she's
I think Scott Pilgrim an Onward is when she same
year really blows up.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
So that was two thousand and six as well.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Okay, So yeah, you have her her beginnings and like everybody,
she's starts. She's starting out in horror movies and horror flicks. Yeah,
then you have you have Katie Cassidy, right.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Yeah, Katie Cats She's she's top, she gets top billing here.
She is also in the Nightmare on Elm Street remake
often often another often hated remake, actually much less appreciated
than this one. If you look at letterboxed by Letterboxed users.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
It's because, yeah, nightmre on Elm Street twenty ten doesn't
have the defenders this movie has. Like this movie has defenders.
It probably it probably didn't at the time, but you know,
you you wouldn't be hard pressed to find someone who
who appreciates this movie. You know, maybe they maybe they
(18:47):
call it a guilty pleasure. But especially after that, after
that most recent Black Christmas movie, I saw a lot
of appreciation for this more more in the frame of like,
oh my god, I can't believe Christmas two thousand and
six isn't the worst Black Christmas remake anymore, you know
a lot of stuff like that. But no, it's you know,
(19:07):
like any of these movies. You know, now that we
have the Internet, you can you can find anybody to
defend anything. But the following for for this movie is
is significantly larger than the twenty ten Nightmare on Elm Street.
And I'm still looking at the rest of the cast here.
(19:29):
You know, Michelle Trachtenberg, I, you know, forgot like she
was probably the biggest name in the cast at the time. Yeah,
I would probably say so, because she was all she
was already in Buffy, Yes she was, and she had
been in a couple of the.
Speaker 1 (19:48):
Like she I believe she was. She was in euro Trip,
which which was fairly I mean fairly popular when it
came out. It wasn't not beloved, but fairly popular when
it came out, you know, during that era of the
sex comedies that our buddies Tony and Gabe love so much.
And uh, yeah, she she I like her a lot.
(20:11):
I still like her a lot. She she gets a
lot of trolls these days online, but she's she's real cool.
I like her. In this there was a Lacy Chabert,
Chabert Chabert who maybe Chabe Chabert. I don't know how
to pronounce it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
I don't care the present to me now, Like, yeah,
I don't know why I hear about this woman as
often as I do, Like, but anytime she makes a
Hallmark movie, it's splashed all over my Twitter feed. Yeah, Like,
why is everybody so excited about the new Lacy Chabert movie.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
She was in Mean Girls, and you know, people like
mean Girls and.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Movie girls, but you know, yeah, that's just uh and
Mean Girls was before this, so you know, you get
another big name you have a for for this movie,
a stacked cast. But I think people people are almost
mad at this movie because I feel like, in their eyes,
(21:11):
they waste these young actresses. Yeah, because if this movie
is following the conventional wisdom of the time, it's to
make all of your characters as bitchy as possible, Like
that was that was the mode. But you gotta remember
in Black Christmas, all of these sorority sisters are fucking brats.
(21:32):
I think Olivia Hussy is the only one. And obviously
Margo Kidder because we love Margo Kitder. But Olivia Hussey's
the one who's not, like I think written to be irritating.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Yeah, and by the way, like we'd be remiss if
we did not bring up that. Andrew Martin, who played
fill in the original movie, is missus Mac in this movie,
which is cool. I like that. I like that you
have a little bit of a of a callback there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
There's a lot of funds, there's a lot of fun
Easter eggs before Easter eggs were the thing, you know,
just clear, clear love for the original movie. Not sure
if that love translates into understanding how or why the
original movie works. But that's always been a weird argument
to me about about a remake, like this remake is
(22:23):
not gonna work in the same way that the original work.
That that's impossible.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
It's a hard balance, I think, because like you have
to be different enough to stand out. You know, if
you're just a shot for shot, nobody's gonna go see
it or nobody's gonna care. But at the same time,
you know, if you're too different, then suddenly you don't
understand what made the original great. I will defend this
movie in that I believe they were They did understand
for the most part. They just went maybe a little
(22:51):
too far with some of the references and they meant
and they definitely went out of control with where they
went for the direction of this movie, uh, story wise.
But I do think they had an understanding of what
made the original great. I just don't know that they
hit every mark of making it different. Uh. And I
think that's going to be the story of of our
(23:11):
final verdicts once we get there for this is that
it's just not quite there. Honestly, I'll be honest. There's
a couple of other things that I want to mention,
but like, I don't know how much I have to
say about this movie, Like, you know, like I thought
I would have a lot to say, but I feel
like some of the stuff, most of the stuff I remember,
I remember because I didn't love it, and I don't
(23:34):
remember anything else. Like I don't can't tell you any
of the characters names. I don't know if they're the
same as the original. I can't remember I can't remember
some of the story beats, I can't remember some of
the kills. But the stuff I do remember I want
to get your take on because one of them is Agnes.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
I was, just like you, you know, that's that's something
that needs to be addressed when you talk about it
needs to be Black Christmas two thousand and six. I'm
kind of all for Agnes. It's it's a very blunt move.
I mean, you know, once she shows up, like, there's
(24:11):
Agnes and she looks almost like Zelda from pat Cemetery.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Uh yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Which was It's very interesting to again see tropes that
are okay sometimes and really off putting to people other times,
like you know, casting a man to play Agnes. Let's
let's not discuss anything related to transgenderism. That is not
(24:42):
going to be involved in our Black Christmas two thousand
and six discussion. But just in terms of cinematically, you know,
the trick of you know, putting a man in Dragh
to creep out the audience. I don't think anyone is
bothered by by that being used in Pet Cemetery. I know,
(25:06):
Zelda is still an icon to a whole generation, you know,
a whrror icon to a bunch of gen xers and millennials.
But man, people do not fucking dig it in this movie.
And I don't know. I don't know exactly where I
stand on it. All I can tell you is that
(25:26):
if they wanted to to weird me out, they did
and not because you know, seeing a man in women's
clothing is is weird because it goes back to the cinematography,
like the angles they use and the way they directed
this actor like my Daddy's here, you know, like it's
(25:50):
like a chill But yeah, it's a weird out. It's
not unsettling in the way that their original was. And
it's not really unsettling in the way that you know,
you want your your your fun holiday slasher movie. It's
it's icky, It's it's kind of you know, roadkill e
(26:13):
in that way.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I I agree, Uh, I can't agree that I love
the Agnes thing if I'm being honest, And look, this
just comes back down to I was for it before
it there's a distinction to be bad. I I don't
love it, and I can't say I'm for it either.
I My biggest thing with this movie is like I'm
not I don't. I don't hate when you want to
(26:39):
give a character a backstory, it's it's actually a task
that I think, Uh, it takes a lot of guts
to try to pull off and just try to pull
off successfully. It's it's a hard move, uh. And I
applaud them for trying to go that direction with this movie.
I just don't think really any of it worked for me.
And Agnes is like the perfect example of really why
(27:02):
I think the character was very much there as I
think the entire character's existence was for shock value and
story twist, because you know, through much of the movie,
we're just led to believe that Billy's the one that's
doing the killing by himself and everything is you know
that that's how the story is progressing, and and that's cool,
and you know, we get these stories. And I do
(27:22):
like how if you're going to do that reveal, you
splice the story of what happened before throughout the movie.
I think that made it work a little better because
then it's fresh on your mind and it makes sense.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
I think they earned it, you know. I think if
it's something that I felt like they just threw in
there at the end, you know, if they're doing this
typical black Christmas remake and then they throw in this
twist at the end, I don't know how it would
have landed. But I think they earned it. I mean,
the whole structure of this of this narrative has been
(27:54):
reworked to earn it. If you don't dig it, you
don't dig it. But right, I think all of the
all of the choices that people questioned about this movie
has a real intentionality, has forethought. And you know, it
(28:17):
was a it was a risk, it was it was
a gamble. I think Glenn Morgan knew perfectly well that
he was taking a risk with all of this, with
just the whole concept of remaking Black Christmas. But now
if this movie came out, you know, in a timeline
where the twoy nineteen Black Christmas doesn't come out, this
(28:41):
is the remake we get. I think this movie would
be championed in the terrifier age. I think this movie
would go down pretty well.
Speaker 1 (28:49):
It's it's brutal. I mean it's brutal. It's not just brutal,
it's like it's.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
There's a word beyond all of all of that that
I'm trying to get to now, brutal, not even mean spirited,
just gross.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Very Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
There there's no safety blanket to this movie, which is
something that I think we we love about, you know,
holiday horror is that there is a cozy atmosphere to it.
And I'm a huge believer in that horror movies can
totally be cozy. That's something that I said about Rob
(29:27):
Zombies Halloween two, which is kind of a baffling statement
on the face of it, but uh, but I really
believe it, and I put that in print. But this movie, like,
it's like it's kind of the worst because it takes
things that usually make you cozy and completely violates them,
(29:49):
which is where people get mad at this movie, and
where I'm saying, like, you know what, you have the balls,
no pun intended, you know, in this in this Agnes
Black Christmas, you had the balls to go out and
do that. And you know, at a time when horror
(30:11):
movies were getting more violent but less transaggressive. I do
applot that.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
I applaud it for sure. You know, there are things
that I do apploud about this movie. I mean, I've
said it before and I'll say it again. The guts
of this movie really did surprise me. I do want
to go through a few of my notes, yeah, for
a certain part of this movie, just to give you
an idea of where my head was at when rewatching this.
So I said, some good slasher frights. I thought that
(30:40):
Lacy's death, Lacey Shepherd's death in this movie was actually
like pretty well done as far as like a scare factor.
I didn't think this movie was very scary. I actually
think that the original Black Christmas it does unsettle me
and freak me out quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Still, the Original Black Christmas is up there with classic
horror that still scares me.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
I think it's I think it's one one of the
scariest slasher movies period, truly.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, the classic to scary ratio is like, yeah, really
really strong with the original Black Christmas. I would argue
that's probably something that really held it back. It was
probably something that audiences were not ready for in nineteen
seventy four.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Okay, yeah, to say the least. But yeah, So I
said some good slasher frights with Lacey's death, and then
I said, you dumb bitches bundle up and go outside.
Uh skate kill okay Uh? Then dot dot dot agnes uh,
followed by my Daddy's here for fuck's sake, then please
(31:39):
stop showing them so much. Uh. I by the time
we got to that reveal now. I want to say this,
Before this viewing, I thought of this movie very neutral.
I like to joke about it, I like to do things,
and sort of my feelings are so mixed right now,
(31:59):
Like I've never caung out of a viewing so confused
about what I'm gonna say at the end of an
episode because I was so upset that I was watching
what I was watching when we got to that part
of the movie. And then immediately after that we get
some like genuinely creepy visuals of Billy, like like maneuvering
(32:19):
in between walls and stuff, and like it's it looks good,
it looks creepy, and it's unsettling and stuff. But I
feel like, again, like this movie I think has a
hard time balancing good story and moments with good slasher moments.
And I don't think it has that struggle throughout the
entire movie. I do think there are moments, especially when
(32:41):
we get a lot of the stuff with the girls
and and you know, their interactions in the house. I
do think a lot of that works within the context
of the time that it came out. But I don't know,
am I missing something like that? That whole sequence where
Agnes shows up and my daddy's here and he comes
Like I just was like, I literally probably four times
(33:02):
just went for fuck's sake because I didn't remember it
and it didn't age well for me.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
If I'm being honest, This movie didn't get eye rolls
for me. It got like moments of like I wouldn't
have done that, or was that one of them? Like,
hey man, where are you going with this?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (33:23):
I definitely have a few moments of that, some maybe
some bewilderment slash for amusement. But it's funny because like
I'm really attached to the original Black Christmas, Like I
cherished that movie. You would think I would be pretty
protective of it in a similar way I'm protective of
(33:43):
Texas Chainsaw Masker or how a lot of people are
protective of Halloween. And you know I should be maybe
offended or at least really questioning the judgment of what's
going on here.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Maybe it's because you know, there is a clear love
for the original. Maybe it's because you know, Bob Clark
put his name on this thing, so you know, it's
hard to say that it goes completely against uh, you know,
the original movies vision. I don't know. I just I
look at remakes now is not like, oh, we're remaking
(34:23):
the original, but it's like a what if, Like what
if instead, you know, Black Christmas was done as this,
you know, almost hitchcocky and thriller mixed with you know,
really provocative kind of obscene phone callar paranoia of the seventies.
You know, what if it? What if it was now
(34:44):
you know, the most depraved version of a Christmas story
that you could possibly testing.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Yeah, yeah, I know, we've we've we've covered a lot
of stuff this movie, and there's some stuff that I
don't think we've talked about that I don't know that
we need to dedicate a lot of time to which
is like.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
We also say something about the kills because this occurred
to me while you were talking about it, because I
am wondering, like, why doesn't this movie get more credit
for the kills? Like I'm not a I'm not big
on kills, Like that's rarely something I talk about, Like,
but you know, I know it matters to a lot
of people, and it does on paper, it seems like
this movie should be remembered pretty fondly for that, But
(35:27):
people are not keen on this movie's kills, and I
think it's because the kills have too much to do
with eyes, and eyes are a no go for a
lot of people. I'm not going to call it a taboo,
but like we all hate the idea of people poking
our eye, dude.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
And there's another movie that came out this same year
called Sino Evil, which was also about with it had
a lot to do with eyes, and it was just like,
I don't know what two thousand and six is obsession
with eyeballs was. I think, I think what you said
there is is kind of true, but I also think
it doesn't do enough to be cartoonish, you know, like
(36:07):
like the Terrifier movies are kind of beloved because it's
disgusting and it makes people feel sick, right, but there
there's this over the top nature to them, to where
like if my brother came to me and he has
and he's he's got no interest in horror movies, he's
got you know, we could not be different personality wise,
But he came to me and he was like, I
don't really care about the first two, but I want
to go see Terrifier three. And I was like, you
can go see Terrifier three. I was like, but it's
(36:29):
I was like, you know, if you're not ready for
this cartoonish, over the top violence, like it's not going
to appeal to you. And even though there's some like
really good gore effects in the Terrifier movies, it still
has that sort of disconnect that you don't, I think,
get as much of in this movie. It's over the top,
don't get me wrong, but it doesn't feel disconnected enough
that you're like, in Terrifier you're kind of like laughing
(36:52):
as you go. You in this one, you're just kind
of like, oh my god, that's fucking I'm laughing now.
But I laugh because that's how I feel uncomfortable. I
feel uncomfortable by laughing. So, uh, you know, I'm not
gonna say this movie went too far for me in
the entire thing, but I am gonna say that there
(37:13):
are moments in this that, like I just would have
preferred to not have in my slasher movie.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Are you thinking about about the incest? Is the incest
one of the thing?
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Inst is up there? Incest is up there? I mean,
like you know, like you know, and I've said this,
like I am not like I'm not totally gen Z
about sex and movies, you know, like I'm you know,
gen Z kind of doesn't want that anymore, or maybe
Jen Alpha is kind of that way. They're they're just
sort of this like conservative nature. And I don't mean
politically conservative nature. I mean socially conservative nature about sex
(37:44):
and movies nowadays. And I'm not one of those people,
but I am one that if you go too far,
I get uncomfortable and.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
That this is categorically different. I mean, when people are
defending sex and movies, we're not defending incestible.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Well in that movie, I I get really uncomfortable with.
And it's something like that. I've said before that that,
specifically because of the asylum scene, I prefer Rob Zombie
theatrical to the director's cut. I gave the director's cut
to an old coworker of mine about eight years ago
forgetting that that scene was in the movie, because I
don't like to remember it, and this movie, I totally
(38:19):
forgot that that scene happened, and when we got there,
my jaw dropped and I didn't want to watch it anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
But they don't, Yeah, but they don't show the incest.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
They don't linger on it, which I appreciate, but there's
something do you agree that there's something still like really
uncomfortable about the way that they fill through it?
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Like of course, I mean that was the intention. I mean,
I yeah, Uh, if you're saying that you know there
is a line in the sand that you just should
not cross, you know, that's one thing. But uh, they
broached a taboo. They knew they were broaching a taboo.
(38:59):
It's justified the story. It's fucking gross, it's weird as hell.
That was you know completely there are artisticate intention So
I think it comes down to you know, your personal
boundaries when it comes to the movies that you watch,
(39:19):
and how well the movie prepared you for it, Like
it didn't come out of nowhere, because this movie was
already deeply, deeply uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
And they set up a lot of stuff with like
this odd relationship between the mother and the son and
sort of the things that were happening in the stepfather situation,
and like there was there was, there was not. It
didn't punch in the face as far as the story goes.
Maybe I could see if somebody was like me and
they were just kind of punched by the by how
(39:50):
like how you could show so little and make me
so uncomfortable?
Speaker 2 (39:53):
Still, but usually we call that good filmmaking, you know.
I mean that's no.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
I will say this like it wasn't my thing as
far as like, but I don't. I don't hold it
as a detraction from the movie because it did what
it was supposed to do for me. So like, even
though it's it would hurt my rewatchability for it, it's
not going to hurt my final opinion. Other things have
done that enough. So wow, Okay, And and by the way,
I still don't know where I'm going to land, and
we're getting closer to that final verdict, then I don't
(40:20):
really know what I'm gonna say there.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Yet, So why don't you tell me the things that
actually do hurt the movies score for you, not things
that made you uncomfortable, but things that you think are
problems with this movie.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
So some of the stuff that makes me uncomfortable is
stuff that I think does hurt because I think some
of it is just too far, like when I say
cartoonish violence, Like I do think there's a value to
being over the top, but I do think that some
of the moments. It's a specific moment for me that
doesn't work is the cookies. I think that's one that
(40:56):
was put in there to be a shock value and
to make you uncomfortable. That I just felt didn't work.
I did feel that.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
Okay, I think the idea of of him making the
Christmas cookies is fine, but yeah, the shot of him
eating it, yeah, I did.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
I think that's where it went too far, truthfully, Like,
I think one thing that I think would would have
been really cool. I had this sort of idea, So
I don't I have to bring up Rob Zombie again
for this, because when you listen to Rob Zombie's music,
he has a version of the House of a Thousand
Corpses song that has like a like almost like a
(41:40):
like a prologue. I guess it's it's got like a
little section before the song where it it Amos is
almost playing like news clippings of police after they found
the house, and there's like, oh, there's like boiling body
parts on the stove, and there's all this stuff, and
it's stuff that like, in my head, I kind of
wish we at least saw in The Devil's Rejects, you know,
(42:01):
when they come to the house and they break everything up.
Like I wish that we could at least see them
discovering some of these things. Like that scene, to me,
could have worked in this you know where, like they
come in and they arrest him. Maybe he's doing some
weird shit in the corner. Maybe they don't show it,
but then they but then you know, like they don't
show a close up of his mouth doing it, and
(42:22):
then maybe you know, they look in the oven or something.
You know, something could have been done to make it
more measured tempered, but they didn't do that. But I
want to say again, like uncomfortable is fine if you
want to go that route, even if it's not for me.
I'll appreciate that. There are directions though that I just
don't appreciate. I think ultimately, I do think that the
(42:45):
story the background was a miss I appreciate that they
did it, but it does detract for me because we
do spend a lot of time in this asylum, We
do spend a lot of time with him and his
mom in this weird relationship, and I just don't think
it serves this movie well. I don't think it serves
the story of Black Christmas.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Very well.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Now, if you want to go a different route with
the killer and do a Michael Myers route right where
they escape from an asylum, having a scene where they
do so is fine, I think. But I think they
just went too far. And I think Agnes is a
perfect example for that. It was it was too much
backstory that you brought later that just didn't work when
you introduced it, and it didn't work when if he
(43:25):
would have killed Agnes, I would have gotten it, you know,
because then it's like, Okay, he's clearly murderous. He's clearly
you know, but Agnes is alive so she can serve
the purpose at the end of the movie. And I
don't know, it was too much for me, too much
backstory that didn't work, And I truthfully, I want to
be fair. I have that same criticism somewhat of Rob
Zombie's Halloween. I just think there were some missteps in
(43:48):
that backstory. I think the same for this one, just
a little stronger.
Speaker 2 (43:53):
I guess what I'm going to differ is that I
I actually appreciate the way it was integrated, Like, yes,
we get too many details, but I thought it helped
the flow of the movie. I think if the movie
had just been this Christmas night in that sorority house
with these characters, that would hurt the movie. You needed
(44:16):
something to balance it out. It's fair because that's not
the experience of the original Black Christmas. The original Black Christmas.
Is this Really it escalates from you know, from a
murder mystery or you know, a a disappearance mystery to
you know, being a proto slasher, right, and you need
(44:39):
you need either to escalate things or to balance things.
And I think as you know, as gross, as weird,
as maybe misguided as it was, you know, there there
is a balance.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
And I kind of wish, you know, could have maybe
looked at this and taken some cues and been inspired
to retool his approach to Halloween a little bit, because
he famously wanted to make two Halloween remakes, one just
for Michael's childhood and then a Halloween remake, and obviously
he wasn't allowed to do that, so he just kind
(45:17):
of put the two together. I think he would have
been better served to take some inspiration from that, not
not have explicit incest or anything like that. As far
as like a screenplay, a story structure approach. I actually
appreciate this, and you know, we can go back and
forth on the content of that backstory, and I'm not
(45:40):
going to die on the hill that this movie needed
all of that. But as far as rewatchability goes, I'm
never going to rewatch this as much as the original
Black Christmas. Like, let's be clear, this is no Black
Christmas seventy four. No, But I would put this up
again favorably against most of those you know, remake slashers
(46:06):
of the time. I would.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I can't. I can't. I can't fully go there. But
one thing I do want to praise before we get
to final verdicts here is is definitely I do appreciate
not just how they did the kill at the end,
how Billy meets his end, but I do appreciate the shot.
I think that's one of the most underrated things from
this movie, is like, is the visual aspect of it.
(46:33):
I do think there's there's areas where it doesn't work,
where maybe they go a little far to do you know,
up close Dutch angle on somebody right like, but I
do think that that ending shot of showing our main
character with the light projecting the shadow of an impaled
Billy on the ceiling above her is one of the
(46:55):
best shots of the two thousands horror. If I'm being
honest with you, it just fully worked for me. And
it took an ending that I was already kind of
sour on, like Okay, now they're loosing the hospital, like okay,
all right, let's to okay, you know what that was
worth it. I was a little too quick to judge it.
I was a little too quick to be like, all right,
what the fuck are we doing here? Because you know,
(47:16):
that last shot was worth it to me.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
You know what's a good ending when Scream four basically
borrows it? Just Okay, I get that Scream four is
a satire, so it's not stealing. They're sad arising. But yeah,
I mean the final kill, the final beat, it's a
(47:40):
pretty perfect note to end on. It's kind of like,
I don't know, I think the rob Zombie Halloween has
a similar thing where you know, it's so uneven throughout
most of it, but yeah, but I love the final
the final note that they end on. Yah, so it
(48:01):
kind of like washes that away. I mean, that's how
important endings are. And I think this movie nails. Maybe
not the climax because you know that's where you get
into the Agnes reveal. But it nails that final the
final scare.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
I think that's fair to say. I I appreciate, I
appreciate the artistry that was put into one thing.
Speaker 2 (48:22):
Okay before I guess we're approaching final verdicts and I
realized I haven't brought up something that did bother me.
Don't need this sex tape subplot.
Speaker 1 (48:32):
That was dumb. That was basically everything with that actor
who he's in a lot of stuff, Oliver Hudson. I
mean he could have been he could have been completely
cut from the movie, and I think the movie would
have been fine. His whole character is. I mean, there's
there's kind of two red herrings that you kind of see,
you know where, like you think that the movie's gonna
(48:53):
swarve you. I think he's one of them, and the
I can't remember the name of the weird the weird
girl whose head was cut off in her car, but
she was also kind of a red herring. You kind
of just think that she's going to mean something when
she she ends up not meaning much. But yeah, totally
feel you didn't work unnecessary drama, Like the movie didn't
even need that at that part. You know, it comes
(49:15):
kind of right after like some some pretty decently sized
moments as far as the story is concerned.
Speaker 2 (49:20):
So yeah, look, all of the drama and all of
the relationships between these main characters, as as as lovely
as all the actresses are. I think they're all excellent actresses,
and you know a lot of them would go on
to do really great work after this. But dead weight
(49:41):
to this movie, that is a hump that this movie
could not cross, is just how insufferable main characters were
in movies at this time. I mean, that's got you know.
That goes from everything from like you know, House of
a Thousand Corpses to I guess the the kids in
(50:04):
the Texas Saints. Some ask remakes are okay, but like
the Friday remake, the Nightmare remake. Yeah, so I don't know,
have we covered everything. Have we said all there is
to be saying?
Speaker 1 (50:17):
Is about as much as we could. I'm sure we're missing,
you know, things that people don't like about this, But
I think that opens up a nice little discussion in
the comments. Hopefully, I'd love to hear what people do
and don't like about this movie. But speaking of do like,
I'd love to hear your final remarks, your final verdict.
Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, so this has been an interesting discussion. You know,
a lot of times I'm not exactly sure how the
discussion will go and what my role in the discussion
will be. And in this case, I turned out to
be more on the defense of the movie, like I
turned out I guess to to, you know, want to
(50:55):
defend it right, found more things to praise than I
was expecting. Look, this is not a this is not
a classic in its own right. It's not a hidden gem.
I'm not shocked that that, you know, people rejected this
(51:16):
en mass and I'm you know, I would be surprised
if this had the reputation of a Texas Chainsaw Masacer,
because there's just there's a Texas chants On Masacer remake.
I mean, because there's no wide appeal even in the
horror fandom that this movie can offer. But what I
appreciate and why I think this movie kind of needs
(51:39):
to exist needed to come out in two thousand and six,
is it was actually a transgressive movie in a time
where I thought the horror genre again, it was getting
it was getting violent again, it was getting mean, spirited again.
This is after Saw Hostile Devil's Rejects, but with rare exception,
(52:00):
I feel like Slashers still had lost their transgressive identity.
You know, going back to Black Christmas, it's not just
creepy and unsettling. I mean, it's it's a provocative movie.
The main subplot of that film is a young woman
wanting to get an abortion, and this is like two
years after Roe V. Wade has passed, and you know,
(52:23):
that's that to add something more substantial to the discourse
than what this movie has to offer. But it's still
broached taboos and took some big fucking swings in the
story department. Thematically, I think it earned most of its
(52:44):
more controversial elements, and I love when a film can
do that, when it can when it can earn that
and not just employ them for shock value. And again,
I think this might be actually the best horror Christmas
movie insofar as subverting Christmas and taking the iconography of
(53:05):
Christmas and turning it into something sinister. And that's not
something that I need all of my Christmas horror movies
to do, but I need at least one to do that,
So this movie has its place that's my main defense
of it. It has its place. I'm glad it exists,
and I'm if I am to watch any Black Christmas remake,
(53:28):
I'm going to watch this one. So yeah, I guess
I come down to you know, it's an actually good
it's it's a hair above not that bad.
Speaker 1 (53:41):
Okay, good to hear. Glad you'll land on that side here.
I feel a little less bad for my criticisms now
that you said that. But yeah, I mean, look this movie.
You know, there's a lot to appreciate. There's a lot
to applaud. Definitely love the guts and the visual is there,
but and the blood and guts. Truthfully, I think it's
(54:03):
it's done pretty well, but ultimately it wasn't enough for me.
This time, I will come down on that this movie
is that bad. I think at two point six is
a fair rating for it. I don't think it deserves
hatred like so many kind of throw at it. But
I feel that way about most movies that I don't like.
I don't I don't see myself rewatching this soon, but
(54:24):
I don't think it's one that I would never rewatch again.
I think I give it another shot, but see if
some of the things land a little better, But for now,
I think I think landing on it's that bad. I
think at two point six is fair. I think i'll, i'll, i'll.
When I rate this on letter box, I think I'll
give it about a two point five. So I think
I think that's fair in my in my mind.
Speaker 2 (54:44):
And I would probably give it a three.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
Okay, yeah, that's that's that's fair.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
But I will say it's pretty commendable that I'm coming
out for it at all when it's it's playing around
with one of my favorite horror movies and taken a
lot a lot of Liberty's while while doing it. So
you got you gotta create it. Grade it on a
curve that way when you think of how bad this
(55:12):
movie could have been that it's it's a great film.
It's an accomplishment, right right, But as a standalone, you know,
movie watching experience, it's you know it, it squeaks by
with an endorsement from.
Speaker 1 (55:29):
Me, right, I feel that I feel that one hundred percent.
It's uh yeah, it's it's I'll say this too, and
I want to I want to be clear about this,
Like Christmas horror is kind of limited for me. I
prefer the more wholesome Christmas experience. I just had a
lot of good Christmases when I was a kid, so
you know, I I when I think of Christmas, I
(55:52):
like to think of the happier stuff. But uh, you
know that that's still I I you know, I do
think that, uh, there's a value you for this movie
for some I just don't think it reached quite where
it needed to for me. And that's I still recommend
that people check it out if they can stomach it.
Speaker 2 (56:09):
Well, for me, all of my Christmases have been have
been defined by me being terrorized by you know, a
faceless killer. So this movie, really that's very fair with me. Yeah,
well my Christmas is we're nothing like this movie. Let's
put that on I hope.
Speaker 1 (56:26):
So yeah, I hope so there would there'd be some
therapy needed there, I think if if it was anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
All right, But okay, thanks again for everyone who is
joining us again. You know we haven't recorded in a
little bit, so it is really nice to be back
in the saddle. And you know, if you wish that
we were talking about a more wholesome Christmas movie to
celebrate the holidays, well I think you'll enjoy our next
(56:56):
discussion about a very very different kind of Christmas movie.
Speaker 1 (57:01):
Incredible. I don't think it could be any more different.
Speaker 2 (57:05):
Although ironically it might be as upsetting to me as
this was to you. So we'll we'll, we'll see how
how it holds up.
Speaker 1 (57:13):
I will. I'm happy and excited to see how that
goes in the meantime, Folks, again, hope you enjoyed this episode.
Leave a like, leave a comment, share it with a
friend if you if you'd like, that would be great support.
But if you'd like to support us even further, that
badmedia dot com or Patreon dot com, slash that bad
media where we have a ton of perks and exciting
(57:34):
opportunities for you to support that bad media and all
of our current and future endeavors. Again, thank you for
checking out the episode, and mister Tye, would you take
us out my friend?
Speaker 2 (57:47):
Well, happy holidays to everyone. You know, it's uh, it's
been a weird year. It's been a long, weird year.
We're coming to the end and it's a it's gonna
be nice to to reminisce and to settle into the
holiday season. So I hope you guys join us for that.
Yeah and yeah we look forward to the start of
(58:09):
the new year. But until then, you know, this is
this is Gabe, this is Connor, and this is this
is not that bad media slash. No, this is not
that bad slash, that bad media signing out until we
(58:31):
changed our names again. We're out of their name or
whatever we do.
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