Revisited: The Phantom Menace - Are The Fans Coming Around?

#starwars #thephantommenace #episodeone

In our first Revisited episode, Not That Bad takes a second look at Star Wars: Episode I as it has a surprisingly warm reception during its rerelease. After being the ire of nerds and geeks for decades, The Phantom Menace might finally be getting into people's good graces. A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.

So Connor the Star Wars fan and Gabe the Casual Viewer re-evaluate The Phantom Menace and explore the question of why fans are finally warming up to this black sheep after so long.

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Okay, now, before we officiallystart this conversation, Obviously, people tuning
in can see my Star Wars episodeone hat. They can see probably a
little bit of the Star Wars shelfhere behind me. Obviously, I'm a
big fan of this franchise, afan of this movie from before the last
time we talked about it. ButI want everybody to know, Okay,
up front, I'm gonna do mybest to be as impartial as possible here.

(00:23):
Sorry, hold on a little parts. It's good. I know everybody

(00:57):
listening, if they're familiar with ourshow, they might be a little caused
because we've talked about The Phantom Menacealready. We did that over a year
ago. We talked about the PhantomMenace and the next one attack of the
Clones on the show already, Butobviously things have changed since then, including
a recent re release of the moviein theaters for its twenty fifth anniversary.

(01:17):
Crazy to think twenty five years havealready passed since the release of that movie
in nineteen ninety nine. But thisis not the first time that The Phantom
Menace has been re released in theaters. It's happened before, and so before
we talk about how it went thistime around, Gabe, how did it
go last time they tried to dothis? It went so badly. It

(01:38):
went so poorly that they actually canceleda whole re release plan for the entire
Skywalker saga. Again. This startedin two thousand and twelve. Phantom Menace
was released in three D in twentytwelve, pre Disney buyout. So this
is back when there were only sixof these movies and they were going to

(02:00):
release all of them each year witha three D rendering, and the Phantom
Menace was so poorly received that theycanceled plans to do the rest of the
franchise, And it kind of addedfuel to the fire of the animosity the
phantomosity to the Phantom Menace, becausenow people not only did this movie ruin

(02:24):
their childhoods, but it ruined plansfor the chance to see Star Wars all
of the classic movies in theaters,although I'm not sure if I would want
to see The Empire Strikes Back inan ugly as three D conversion, But
understandably it was just one of thoseweird decisions. We're going to start with

(02:46):
the least popular movie, the leastpopular section of this franchise and make people
wait a couple of years before weget to quote unquote the good ones.
But if The Phantom Ennis had beenreceived as well back then as it is
now and its current re release,things would have probably gone different, because,

(03:08):
as I understand it, it's actuallydoing gangbusters. It did incredibly so
it was re released in theaters thisyear again twenty fifth anniversary. It made
an additional fourteen point eight million dollarsthis weekend this past weekend at the time
of recording at the box office,competing with actual new releases in theaters and

(03:30):
acting with It's a Tall Guy,right, starring Ryan Reynolds, Ryan Reynolds,
Ryan Gosling, Yes, other Ryan. I insisted to myself that I'm
not one of those people that willget those two men used. What can
you do? But it's such aninteresting contrast because it's a real doom and
bloom for the fall Guy. Itwas this one hundred million plus budget movie

(03:53):
Ryan Gossen, coming off of thebiggest movie of last year in an Oscar
nomination. Rave reviews out of southBy Southwest it looked like and by all
accounts, the trailers were really good. I thought the trailers were good.
Although I don't think people trust trailers. No, I think we're past that,
especially if they're horror fans. Iknow horror trailers have beentrayed us too

(04:16):
many times, I think, Andyeah, I think I think people are
sort of beyond There's a couple ofthings that I think are contributing to this.
I think there are specific movies thatpeople know they want to go to
the theater for. I think that'swhy a Star Wars re release of All
Things did so well coming back totheaters. But so many movies, I
mean, even popular series, evenMarvel movies that were heading back to theaters

(04:41):
were not doing as well as predictedor as well as they hoped. You
know, there's theater experience being abig issue. I mean, I see
more people that I know talking aboutbad theater experiences now than ever. I
see a lot of people talking aboutthe fact that they just prefer to watch
movies at home. That's not themajority. I know that I'm part of
that majority that I that does existthat would prefer a good theater experience over

(05:06):
a home experience. But the lackof there's that lack of urgency, right,
and yes, the fascinating thing isthat now it's backwards. So a
new movie comes out with all thisfanfare. It is a movie that demands
to be seen in the theater,right the Fall Guy, big action extravaganza.

(05:29):
But people don't feel the urgency tosee in the theaters because they know
it's going to end up on somestreaming service and the comfort of their home
is find enough substitute for you know, going out spending thirty dollars on tickets
and concessions to watch what could bea good movie or what could be a
mediocre movie. But the flip ofthis is that a movie that is as

(05:53):
old as we are, the PhantomMenace that came out in nineteen ninety nine.
You know, it's right there onDisney Plus if you want to watch
it. But the nostalgia has builtup and the affection for that movie has
built up so intensely that there isthe urgency to see it in the theater
now because it's never been what outsideof a small window, it hasn't been

(06:15):
theatrically available in our lifetimes. Yeah, and I think something that you touched
on there is something that I thinkwould be a good way to sort of
begin the transition to talking about ourfeelings about this as of our recent rewatches.
Now, we did not neither ofus were able to make it to
the theater unfortunately, to see thisre release, so we're not talking about
it from that perspective, though weare covering it again from that perspective.

(06:38):
So we've seen it since our lastepisode, and we're here to talk about
the contrasting opinions since then if wehave any. But the audience certainly has.
I mean, they showed up andthey showed out for this movie,
and it wasn't just people going tothe theaters to see this And obviously fourteen
point eight million dollars putting it backin the top fifty all time box office
releases for films is impressive. Butwhat's even more interesting is that almost immediately

(07:03):
people, even if they couldn't makeit to the theaters, were they had
a reason to revisit this movie.They had a reason to want to talk
about this again, and social mediawas filled with posts about this movie and
discourse about it. Letterboxed what weuse to look at ratings for our show.
The movie was at a two pointeight when we covered this for the

(07:24):
first time. And it's jumped toa two point nine, which for a
smaller movie is not a huge deal, but for a bigger movie with hundreds
of thousands of people who've already reviewedit on the site, that's a pretty
big deal to jump up zero pointone percent on the site. So this
movie, we talked about it lasttime about how there's this growing sort of
fandom and it's not even a cultanymore, I don't think. I think

(07:46):
it's really kind of taking over StarWars fans and even people who may not
be like a hardcore Star Wars fan. I would imagine that there's a silent
majority of naysayers still, but thefans and the sympathizers are kind of taking
over the discourse in the way thatyou know, any grassroot movement eventually does,

(08:11):
right, Yeah, before you canreach the majority, first, you
have to really kind of take overthe channels of the conversation. And I
think the fans are making themselves heardmore than ever. And I've started to
see people who still hate the PhantomMenace kind of be defensive or having to
react to this upstart of Phantom Menaceenthusiasts, and some do it either with

(08:41):
you know, some kind of ironichumor. Others do it with true indignation.
But the generational divide is what Ithink is really driving this. Like
these millennials do not get what uszoomers see in this movie, you know,
just like they don't really get theydon't really get us on anything.

(09:01):
They don't know why we're protesting outon college campuses. They don't know why
we're going out to see The PhantomMenace of all things in movie theaters.
And so to kind of start thatoff, do you think the analysis is
right that it's a generational divide ordo you think that there are millennials discovering

(09:22):
this reevaluating it. Well, what'syour take on that? So, I
think as far as people that arethrowing praise at it nowadays other than the
people who are already there. Youknow, like we talked even over a
year ago, when we talked aboutthis movie for the first time, you
know, talking about that group ofpeople who really did love this movie.
That's sort of what we alluded tothen, was that it was sort of

(09:43):
this younger crowd who really wasn't aroundor wasn't paying attention at the time that
the movie came out. To hearall of the people just absolutely destroying it
constantly. But I do think thatthere are two groups of people who are
supporting it now who either really didn'thave a re to feel either which way
about it, and now that they'revisiting it for the first time or seeing

(10:05):
it, you know again for thefirst time in years, are finding themselves,
you know, not listening to thosenaysayers anymore. But I do think
that there is a large section ofStar Wars fans, whether no matter the
age, that got caught up inthe hatred for the movie and didn't want
to like it, and so theywent into it not liking it. But

(10:26):
now you know, they're not listeningto that anymore. I saw a lot
of posts on the app formally knownas Twitter talking about like one in particular
stood out to me, and itwas this guy who is a lifelong Star
Wars fan. I believe he wasborn in the mid eighties, so he
saw Phantom Medicine theaters as a kid, and then he saw it again now.
He talked about how much he hatedit before, and he said in

(10:50):
his tweet, I guess I don'tknow if they're still called tweets, but
I'm gonna say that now. Hesaid he was not going to allow anybody
to convey him that it was abad movie anymore, because he wanted to
form his own opinion. He wentinto it watching it for that reason.
And there were so many people thatagreed with him in the comments of the
post, and so it's really coolfor me. I do believe that most

(11:13):
of the support does come from thatgenerational divide of people who either were too
young like us. I mean,we were one when this movie hit theaters.
But there's also you know, thatgroup of fans that kind of come
around and say, you know what, maybe I was unfair to this,
let me give it another shot,and they're surprised when they watch it again
and they don't have as many complaints. Yeah, it makes me wonder what

(11:35):
the Phantom Menace of our generation willbe like a movie that our our generation
of moviegoers hated, tarred and feathered, tried to banish, and then we
watched the next generation, you know, reappraise it and discover it. And
I mean, it could be MichaelBayes, Transformers, it could be Bo

(11:58):
was Afraid. I'm not gonna saythat the Phantom Menace has more artistic integrity
than Bose afraid. But let's justleave that off the table. Let's just
move on. So I guess weshould eventually talk about our feelings yeah about
this movie and maybe how they've changed. But let's start with you, lifelong

(12:24):
Star Wars fan guy who has merchof this movie, which is something I
cannot like claim to you know,as the super fan. Has your opinion
changed at all since the last timewe talked it has? Yes, my
opinion has changed from the last timethat we talked about this. Just to
let people know, you know,we do want to kind of compare and

(12:46):
contrast and see what has changed.So last time I gave this movie an
actually great, I was very enthusiasticabout giving it an actually great. I'm
I will say that it has changedsome since then, so we'll see where
that lands by the end of thisepisode. But I want to ask you,
has your opinion changed it all sincethe last time with your rating of

(13:07):
A not that bad? I don'tknow. I think I don't know how
to watch this movie without just studyingits relationship to its own legacy, Like
I'm not really watching it for thepurposes of enjoying a movie. So much,
although there are things to enjoy.I said that back then and I'll
say that now, but it's justI feel more like an anthropologist dusting something

(13:31):
off and studying it. So Ithink I watched it too clinically so the
first time I watched it, andI think I talked about this experience in
our previous discussion. I was takenwith it in a kind of so bad
it's a good way, yes,And I think my opinion has bounced out

(13:58):
more of of thinking that this movieis, for lack of a better word,
cute. There's something kind of adorableabout The Phantom Menace to me.
I think it really is. Ijust want to pinch its cheeks, not
charge, not charge r he's Andthere are some kind of gross things about

(14:20):
this movie too, but I don'tknow, man, something I think there's
something about the sincerity of this movieand of George Lucas's intentions here, Like
I think, you know, peoplepsychoanalyze George Lucas a lot, and I'm
not sure how much I want todo that. But there's a real kind
of kid in a candy store sensibilityhere, but a kid that is weirdly

(14:46):
hung up on trade disputes, youknow, and federalism. It's it's this
kind of like nerdy thing, notnot nerdy in the Star Wars us up
as you know, Han Solo orPrincess Leiah, like nerdy, like like
politically wonky about it. And thatI know people have always hated this movie

(15:11):
for I love it. I thinkit's the most endearing quality of the movie.
And I do laugh at it,but I think I laugh in that
kind of I want to pat thismovie on the head and say, you
know, you know, kid,you've you've got your heart in the right
place. I'll give you that well, you know. And that's the thing
too, I mean that the wholetalk about how this movie, I mean,

(15:33):
it's been called downright boring for thepolitics that they put in it,
and it's like, for me,I've always just seen it as something that's
essential to the plot of Star Wars. I mean, this is literally the
movie that is going to be thekickoff point for the entire rest of the
franchise, including three movies that we'vealready seen at the time of release,
right like we've already seen. Ifaudiences are going into The Phantom menacent in

(15:58):
nineteen ninety nine. I would sayninety nine percent of them have seen Star
Wars, have seen the Empire strikesback, and have seen Return of the
Jedi. And so not only areyou now going to set up this story
arc to playoff over three films,but it's already we've already seen how it
plays out in the next three films. So they had a tall task here.

(16:19):
I don't quite see it from thesame perspective. I do think it's
kind of funny that you kind ofchange the corner on that and have turned
it into a more admiration, Iguess than anything. Admiration adoration. Yeah,
I'm very okay, let me letme label myself this way. I'm

(16:40):
totally a phantom menace sympathizer. I'mnot an apologist, right, but I'm
a sympathizer, I think. Okay, So you're making a prequel trilogy to
a movie that's famously this metaphor forthe uh, you know, the battles
against fascists and imperialism, you know, in the nineteenth and twentieth century.

(17:04):
You know, it's a loose metaphor. It's not a perfect analog, and
it's not very textual, but youknow, it's there, and George Lucas
has always been very open about takinginspiration from you know, Vietnam for example,
right, So he's making a prequeltrilogy about that. And obviously what
you have to do if you're reallygoing to tell the origins of this of

(17:26):
this battle, is to make thestory of the Weimar Republic, right,
And that might be to history schoolfor some people, but I'd argue history
school kind of ethos has been atthe heart of these stories. Now,
maybe we're telling the part of thestory that not everybody thinks is quite as
dramatic, But if you're really interestedin the in the mission of the original

(17:51):
trilogy, I totally think it was. It was definitely an interesting idea to
go back and tell the origins ofthis You know, the whole plankt review
idea of these movies are useless?Why did they make them? I don't
need to see this, maybe youdon't, but I think it provides a
very interesting context. I mean,execution is kind of a different story which

(18:15):
we can really dive into. ButI've always been in that school of camp
and I think I've planted myself morefirmly that no, this movie had every
right to exist, and it hadevery right to focus as much as it
does on the political fabric of thisuniverse and not just the you know,
the lightsabers and the and the dogfights in space or you know the spectacle

(18:40):
stuff. Yeah, And in regardsto like the whole political scene of the
movie and all the things that happenwith it, there's something that really kind
of captured me this time. Ithink every time I watch this there's something
different that really captures me. Inthe last few times, I've been fully
admitted that it's it's the nostalgia factorof it, right, and it's you
know, the whole of that thisis the only Star Wars movie to come

(19:02):
out in the nineteen nineties. Thisis the this is you know, the
kickoff point. This is one ofthe first movies I remember loving as a
kid, So, you know,there's a nostalgia factor. But this time,
specifically, in the last time thatI watched this as well, I'm
just captured at how well I thinkthey executed the idea of Palpatine being like

(19:22):
the most evil motherfucker of all time, like this guy, this guy uses
his political knowledge and where he's kindof wormed himself into at the time we
come into the story, which isas a senator. He uses that position
to manipulate a fourteen year old queento vote against the acting chancellor, to

(19:44):
worm his way into another spot ofpolitical power, and of course, you
know, with that move, hesort of orchestrates the defeat of his own
attack to gain the trust of everybodyafter he's just been named chancellor. So
it's it's such a cool and grippingthing to just see, Like, you
know, you sometimes you think,like this guy is so clearly evil.

(20:06):
He's got an evil voice, hegot an evil face, Like how did
this guy come to power? Andseeing it, like the last few times
I've watched this, just kind ofwatching how he just pulls the strings of
everything from the first film all theway through to the third one, I
think this is the perfect way tokind of set up how this guy wormed
his way into power. And he'snot in the movie much as as you
know, Senator Palpatine, but he'sthere just enough for you to know that

(20:30):
he is behind everything that's going on, even the defeat of his own droid
army that he pushed to attack Naboo. It just shows you how calculated it
is, and I think that's areally well thought out part of the story
that I don't think it's enough creditwhen you watch this movie, probably because
people are paying, you know,too close attention to jar jar banks and

(20:52):
lightsabers. But you know, yeah, it's a pretty subtle element of this
movie doesn't really doesn't feel very pronounceduntil you watch it in the context of
this whole prequel trilogy, you know, and then you get to really see
how these seeds were planted and seehow all of these movies tied together through

(21:14):
that thrue line exactly. Here's here'sa fun way to talk about this movie
though, that I think is evenmore poignant now than when we last talked.
Right, So, everybody talks aboutmovies today is having a political agenda,
you know, go woke, gobroke. The recent Star Wars movies
and TV shows are accused of justthat. Yeah, it's very interesting to

(21:37):
me that nobody's ever really accused thePhantom Menace of having an agenda of being
woke. I know it came outbefore that that really was coined or that's
how we started talking about about thesematters. So let's just sit on that.
Is this movie woke, would itif it were really today, would

(22:00):
be considered woke? And if it'snot woke, why because it's way more
interested in pressing a political philosophy orat the least, you know, making
audiences think about politics, way morethan what the sequel trilogy did. So

(22:23):
I'm gonna say no because of acouple of reasons. And it's not my
personal definition of what I couldn't Icouldn't give a shit what people call a
movie. If the movie's good,the movie's good. My issue, I
think when comparing this to the newmovies, which people would categorize as woke,
like you said, or overly politicalin some ways is I think it's

(22:48):
the awkwardness at which you fit thosethemes into your story I think can be
a big indicator of whether or notpeople are going to call it overly political
or woke. I think when youlook at this movie, they fit it
into a I think it's still looseenough compared to what's going on in the
world at the time that this wasreleased, as compared to some of the
new movies that you really can seehow somebody would watch this and go maybe

(23:14):
watch this and let's say they watchthis and then they go watch The Last
Jedi. I could see how they'dwatch The Last Jedi and be like,
that movie's over political and this one'snot. If they're already making that argument.
The awkwardness at which it's fit intothe new movies is, I think
what makes it stand out to people, whereas this one is technically more of
a movie based on politics, andit's more political. I don't think people

(23:36):
pay enough attention to it to makeit so like, at the end of
the day, it's all about perception. I again, couldn't give a shit
what's woke, what's not. Justgive me a good movie and don't make
anything feel forced, you know,And I don't think anything does feel all
that forced in this I think everythingfits within the context of the movie.
Everything seems to have a purpose inwhat they're talking about. Whereas, like,

(24:00):
you know, people obviously did thinkthat this felt forced. That's kind
of been people say. The firstsign of trouble, the first red flag
of this movie is the fact thatthe opening scrawl is talking about again trade
disputes, federal negotiations, you know, taxation disputes. So I want to

(24:25):
I want to run back on somethingI said a moment ago, because I
think if this movie had been releasedtoday, ahead of the release of the
next two movies, I do thinkthat they would probably say something like that.
I think if we had the fullcontext of one through three, I
don't think that they would. Idon't think that they would say that same
thing I think in nineteen ninety nine, and I think, you know,
even a little bit afterwards, anybodywho hates the movie is going to find

(24:47):
any reason to hate it. Andwe know that from experience on the show,
you know, just seeing people talkabout things about movies that just don't
matter or it wouldn't matter to youknow, most of us. But I
do think if this movie had nocontext of of you know, if this
movie was just Star Wars episode oneand that's where we were starting, I
do think that people would say thatit was overly political. But I do

(25:10):
think looking back on it, Ithink it fits perfectly within the context.
And I'm you know, if peoplestill want to say that it's forced,
you know, that's totally fine.You know, I just don't see I
don't see it that way. Isee it as a good way to you
know, put this man into power, you know, maybe you have a
boring start to that. I don'tknow. I didn't think it was too
boring. Well, it's more it'smore puzzling than boring. Just the fact

(25:37):
that, again the context has beenremoved, and I think that's why the
Phantom Menace kind of goes down easierfor people now. But just imagine waiting
this. Oh yeah, a StarWars movie. Yes, and you're you
hear the title the Phantom Menace andyou think, what are they going to
fight an army of ghosts? What'sI mean, what's gonna happen? It

(25:57):
must be crazy because it took solong to make. And you know,
again the first scrawl is just thatFCC regulations are all right. I think,
get it, I get it.I mean, like, I think

(26:18):
there's enough of this movie that Like, one thing that I thought was interesting
watching our old episode back was thediscussion of whether or not some of the
people in that initial we talked aboutsome of the initial news coverage coming out
of the theaters for Star Wars andhow many people were like, oh,
that was awesome, and how muchof that just felt like people that were
sort of desperate to, you know, justify their years of anticipation and the

(26:42):
money they spent to go to thetheater, and the time they spent waiting
in line, and all of thethings that went into it. Because a
lot went into the release of thismovie, a lot, and looking back
on it, like, I thinkthat there is some of that there,
But I I do think that there'senough in this movie that even, you

(27:03):
know, I think if you're goinginto it as a non star Wars fan,
I could totally see being disappointed.If somebody were to tell you,
like about Darth Maul, for example, and then you start the movie,
you know, boarding a trade shiptalking about negotiations. I think some people
would be disappointed. But I dosort of want to push back on my
own people on that and that,you know, like, what are you

(27:26):
expecting from the first chapter of atrilogy? Yeah, I think I get
it. Compared to the explosive beginningof a New Hope and I get it,
you know, and I totally getit. I do think this movie
could have potentially benefited from It's notan issue for me, but I can
I can say that it probably wouldhave benefited from us getting into the aggression

(27:48):
from the Trade Federation a little quicker, maybe starting with them on the ship.
I know that sounds like a youknow, you're cutting out like you
know, five or ten minutes,but that's a that's a may difference.
Maybe just come up with the fancysci fi jargoning word for trade, you
know, like maybe just come upwith a different word for that. Like

(28:10):
if it were not the Trade Federationbut the Tramungo Clafungo, right, and
then Star Wars. Star Wars fanswould have that tattoo, you know,
Tungo. Yeah, I got iton my back. Actually, they would
cosplays as these as these guys foryou know, for conventions. I mean,

(28:30):
then then we'd have more reasons toclown on George Lucas. I mean
people already laugh about what what isthat character that the internet created for him?
I think it's like bluff shadow ofLike that's how George Lucas names his
characters. Like, we have moreof a reason if he was like,
oh, well, the word fortrade in Star Wars is Tromungo, which,
by the way, as a GeorgeLucas fan, that's not too far

(28:52):
off of something he would come upwith. You know, He's the people
have been clowning onto his writing fora very, very, very long time.
It's I mean, it's a proudtradition of that community, right,
I mean not even just the community. Actors. I mean Harrison Ford Han
Solo himself said Mark this shit,but you can't say it. Mark Hamill

(29:14):
said something about it. Alec Guinnesssaid something about it. In interviews,
he said a lot of things aboutit. Man. At first he was
very complimentary until people that's all peopletalked about about his career, and then
that made him a little upset.But that's kind of actually how I feel
about this movie. I think theway people kind of affectionately, you know,
take these jabs that George Lucas andI think it's widely understood that he

(29:37):
has de flaws as a as adirector, right, but you take it
in stride. It's George Lucas.No, he can't direct actors. But
that's not that's not why we haveGeorge Lucas around. Like, if you
want him to be a Liah Gazan, well, first off, that would
make him a dirty rat, butsecond I would it just wouldn't capture the

(30:00):
imagination of people the way that itdid. So I take most of the
problems with this movie in stride,I was trying to think of of legitimate
criticisms I have that actually bother me, because I have criticisms that don't bother
me, right, but criticisms thatreally do stick out, And obviously the

(30:21):
main one to sool jar Jar.He never really gets easier to watch,
It never becomes any less tragic,the fact that he's in this movie as
much as he is. He says, so sorry about that. Well,
you say, explain yourself, man, like me, are you are you
a jar Jar Binks apologist? Wheredoes jar Jar sit with you? So?

(30:45):
Jarjar is a tough one for mebecause as a kid, obviously,
like you know a lot of kidslike jar Jar Binks. I have a
friend who I infamously shamed during myStar Wars prequel Hater Years for jar Jar
being her favorite part of the movie. And by the way, she was
like, well, old enough wherethat shouldn't have been the case. So

(31:07):
I'm a little I'm a little yeah, I'm a little just feel vindicated there,
just a little bit. But butI do roll back on a lot
of that now because here's the thing, Like, there's definitely a nostalgia factor
that I feel about jar Jar.But there's also this sense of like,
sort of the way that you lookat this movie is kind of the way
I look at the attempts with jarJar Binks, right, is like you're

(31:27):
creating this Star Wars for a newgeneration, right, You're you're bringing it
to a new group of people,and you have to do something. You
have to do something enough that peoplerecognize it as Star Wars, but you
have to do enough new things thatthey don't think you're rehatching it. I
think we saw a lot of troublewith that with the sequels, in that
they didn't kind of understand that thesame way that I think the prequels did.

(31:48):
Prequels were different enough to not bethe same exact experience that we got
in episodes four or five and six, but they were different enough that they
gave you something new and clearly becausethey're so divisive compared to those original films.
Also, you know, telling thesame story over again. But I'm
sympathetic to the thought, let's introducea new character that's for the kids,

(32:10):
that can sell us some merchandise,but also has a purpose in the story.
You know, he's not just thereto be annoying they acknowledge him as
such in the movie. I mean, they call him annoying in the movie.
So it's not, you know,out of the question that adults would,
you know, kind of find thisguy annoying. But I think the
thing that I like about jar Jaris as both a character within the realm

(32:31):
of the story and as an attemptto create something for for the kids watching
the movie. I think it's acute attempt. I think they did.
They tried to give him a youknow, a funny voice. They tried
to give him funny mannerisms. Theytried to do anything they could to make
him a memorable character, but alsonot waste your time with him. So

(32:52):
here's why I resent jar Sharr.I've been, you know, I've been
hyping this movie up as c Spanin space, which, if you know
who you are, I mean,that might be something you could be into.
The thing is that jar Jar isso incongruent to that, and it

(33:12):
dumbs down in a movie that Ithink is trying to be pretty intellectual,
at least for a summer blockbuster.It's a movie that's asking audiences to think
about very complicated procedural matters and thefact that George Lucas's idea of throwing us
a bone to make this go downeasier. That that comes in the form

(33:38):
of jar Jar binks feels like aborderline insult. I want to challenge that
a little bit. I do believeit was throwing a bone in there,
but I don't believe it was forthe people like us watching the movie.
I think that bone was the spacefight. I think that bone was the
Lightsaber duels, especially the duel ofFates. I think it was the big

(34:00):
conflict at the end of the movie, which is very exciting, by the
way, that whole sequence, whetheryou're watching you know, uh, you
know, Queen Amidala and her peoplegoing through you know, the palace trying
to get trying to take everything back, whether it's the space fight where you
know, Anakin accidentally flies in andand takes down the Trade Federation, or
whether you're watching the actual duel betweenyou know, Darth maul Obi, Wan

(34:22):
Kenobi and Qui gon Jin. Thatis kind of like a thank you to
the audience for sitting through the introductionof you know, a six movie story,
right, But jar Jar, Ithink was a bone thrown to the
kids sitting through this. They're gonnalove the action, They're gonna love the
lightsabers. Yeah. One thing that'sgonna help kids sit through a movie is

(34:44):
making them laugh. And jar Jarmade me laugh as a kid. Jorg
made me laugh as a kid.One hundred percent. We were different kids.
Yeah, maybe maybe I was alittle bit more air you dite as
a child. I don't. Well, your dad was also a film critic,
so like you, I mean Ienjoyed kid things. I watched kid
shows. I know, I saidit was again. I think there are
things that missed about it. Idon't. I do think sometimes he goes

(35:07):
a little bit too on the annoyingside. But like you could see how
some of this stuff was a goodattempt to trying to make kids laugh.
I mean, you know when he'swhen he's, you know, grabbing all
the fruit off the table with histongue and you know qui Gon grabs it,
and when he gets electrocuted in theface on Anakin's pot ray. So
you're saying you find that funny oryou think kids found that funny. I
think it was a good attempt atmaking kids laugh, is what I'm saying.

(35:29):
I don't. I don't currently sithere and laugh at those scenes.
But they don't bother me either.It's a part of the experience. Well,
the thing is that we have achild starring in this. This is
a movie about a child, abouta ten year old boy. So yeah,
I think that creates a not anidentity crisis. It's not as devastating

(35:52):
as that, but that the interestingkind of balancing of you know, we
are making a movie for adults aboutvery serious, mature matters, but you
know, this is a movie forkids. It's about a kid. It's
about a kid who's going to growup to be Darth Vader. But you
know, we're gonna we're gonna likereally lean into this kind of childish whimsy

(36:15):
as much as we can, aswe're also dealing with the outside world of
the these socio political matters, whichis a really people will call that a
failed experiment, but I think it'san interesting one. I've said the word
interesting a couple of times. It'sa tough balancing act. I don't know
that they always do it appropriately inthe movie. I think everything that I

(36:39):
look at that that could like.First of all, I want to say
this just before I get into this, I have no problems with Jake Floyd's
performance in this movie. I havea big problem with how people treated him
following this, along with jar JarBanks actor I'm at Best I believe is
his name, who has now returnedto the franchise, who is now back

(36:59):
in Star Wars and actually is playinga quite a heroic and important character in
the context of these new Star Warsstories, which I think is really cool.
What I see putting kid Anakin inthis as like a lot of people
had that complaint, right, LikeAnakin should have been a teenager by this
time, and then we should havestarted with like a teenage Anakin Skywalker,

(37:20):
and then he should have been anadult, and then we see how he
goes in a lot of people disagreedwith having a kid version of Anakin Skywalker.
What I see it as is acouple of things. I mean,
first of all, again, likeyou know, George Lucas is not has
been very transparent about how these movies, like he wants kids to enjoy them.
He has gone as far as tosay there are four kids. You
know, I do think that peoplehave an argument when saying that I think

(37:43):
this movie is four kids. Therecould be an argument I think some people
would argue that that extra stuff abouttrade federations and stuff is what's thrown in
there for adults enjoyment. I wouldsay that that's not the case, because
adults don't enjoy it. Clearly theydon't like the movie. But what I
can say is, I think everythingoutside of the politics of this right and

(38:06):
the exposition and the sort of storybeats that we're getting, I think are
thrown in there for both adults andkids. They're just meant to be consumed
in different ways. With Jake Voydbeing a kid Anakin Skywalker, what it
gives the audience a chance to dois to connect with a character. I
mean, again, they didn't dothis. This was their attempt. I
did. This is how I watchedthe movie. For an adult, you're

(38:27):
supposed to connect with this kid andfeel sympathetic for this kid and begin this
sort of connection and watching this kidgrow up to be great. He's the
hero of the movie. And fora child, the kid's the hero.
I mean, what cooler thing couldyou see them? I mean, this
kid kid's a hero and a genocidalmonster in waiting. Okay, so yes,
but as a kid, but especiallylike when this movie is releasing.

(38:52):
It's sort of banking on the factthat these kids are introduced to Star Wars
in this way, and that everybodyfrom this point. For where George Lucas
is said this, his movies areintended to be watched one through six,
even though they're released four through six, then one through three, they're meant
to be watched Phantom Menace through Returnof the Jedi, And so when you
watch it in that context, youyou get to connect with this kid.

(39:14):
And I think as a kid watchingthis movie, they set it up with
the expectation that you're watching this fromthe beginning. I understand that people don't
necessarily agree with that decision, butit gives you a dual sort of a
dual understanding as to why they woulddo something like this for several things in

(39:34):
this movie, how it plays tokids and how it plays to adults.
Unfortunately, I think there's just alot in there that both groups either find
uninteresting or boring, especially after thecontext of waiting so long for another movie.
So there's there's a lot there.But I want to ask you,
like this time around, did youjar Jar obviously stayed relatively the same for

(39:59):
you. She didn't like jar Jar, then I don't like jar Jar?
Now did any of the other factorsabout the movie? Like, I'll go
to Jake Lloyd as an example,do you have any different feelings about him
this time around as opposed to whatyou had sort of the last time that
you watched this and you weren't.You weren't angry about Jake Lloyd or anything

(40:21):
like that, but just sort ofrecap how you feel about him when you
watch this. I think that thatpoor kid, that's all I think.
I think of Ja Kid. Yeah, that poor kid. So again,
it's hard to even judge him asan actor and not just a victim of
a lot of interjecting cultural trends andpowers. I mean, this was more

(40:43):
than a response to a bad performance. This was this was a hate campaign.
It was a hate campaign against achild who has now been you know,
diagnosed with schizophrenia and just had todeal with pulling and harassment growing up.
Yeah, so I don't think obviouslyyea, And I wouldn't even if
I thought his performance was as badas people say, But it's not.

(41:06):
I actually think. I mean,I'm going to use the C word again,
it's cute. He's a cute kid. Was that direction? Was that
the direction I wanted to see forthe origins of Darth Vader? I mean
that is that's the bittersweet part,right, I mean, I think Anakin
Annie's pretty enduring, enduring character.I think there's him Qui gon almost have

(41:35):
a real relationship, a real dynamic. It could have just used just a
little more of a human spark there, But I think the most human connection
I get is with their relationship,and with Liam Neeson as Qui gon especially.
I think on this recent rewatch he'sthe thing I continued to appreciate more.

(41:58):
So let me kind of like zoomout and look at one of the
still lingering complaints about this movie.The acting is boring, the characters are
boring. George Lucas doesn't know howto do any of this. He doesn't
know how to direct or write charactersright. And there's a lot of evidence
for that in this movie. Wecan get to examples of that later.

(42:22):
But there's something that really works aboutLeam Neeson in this film as Qui gon
Jin. He's not a character thatpeople have much affection for. I know
they brought him back for a cameoin the Obi Wan show, but he's
just this kind of footnote I thinkin the history of these movies. But
there's something about his you know,he's this zen bureaucrat basically who has a

(42:47):
conscious, has a moral compass,but is very confined and lets himself be
confined by regulations and doesn't truly followhis conscience, and that obviously is the
catalyst for, you know, thetragedy that will on spiral to becoming the

(43:08):
Empire and so on. And Ithink there's something very poignant about leam Neeson's
performance. And it's hard to putinto words because you know, he's a
very enigmatic character as far as whatwe know about him, right, but
leam Neeson was the right actor forthat, for that character, and I
feel like he really captures a lotof depth with very limited you know,

(43:36):
dialogue or anything. I think themoment that really stood out to me this
time. It's a small moment,but when when Anakin finds out that he's
a Jedi and leam Neeson says,well, how do you know I didn't
just kill a Jedi and take hislightsaber? And Anakin says, oh,
nobody can kill a Jedi, andleam Neeson says, I wish that were

(44:00):
true. Yeah, I don't knowwhy that moment really said. I guess
because it does contrast with the prettystoic performance and obviously foreshadows his death.
But let me let' turn it backto you. Do you think Qui Gon
is all? I'm all, I'mhyping him up to be honestly, I
would say he's more like to behonest, like, there's there's so much

(44:24):
to appreciate about Qui Gon and andfirst of all, you know, the
dialogue conversation about these movies is oneyou can have about every single Star Wars
movie, even up to the NewDisney ones. You can have the conversation
that the dialogue in all of thesemovies is not strong. I take I
think the dialogue in this one's betterthan an episode four, you know,
the first ever Star Wars. Butyou know, people don't want to hear

(44:45):
that that said. Uh, QuiGon is the shining example of when George
Lucas knows how to write a character. And maybe I'll eat those words when
you know it comes out that somedaythat he never did that. Somebody else
wrote that dialogue or revised the scriptor something, But for now, that's
the information we have, and I'mgonna roll with it. Because George is

(45:06):
a fantastic storyteller, you know,no matter what you want to say about
his dialogue or about how he directsactors, he's a great storyteller. And
the casting of Liam Neeson as Quigon Jin, who ultimately is one of
the most important characters in the entireStar Wars universe, if you really boil
it down, it was absolutely perfectchoice. He handled the line's dialogue,

(45:30):
even the ones that weren't as strong, he handled so well. With how
he portrayed this character. You believedthat he meant what he was saying,
and he gave us moments of likereal levity, you know, and made
think. I think he made somechanges easier to swallow for me, you
know, like even the introduction ofthe Midichlorians. Hearing him explain what they

(45:50):
were and why they're important made iteasier for me to accept, like,
Okay, you know they're going tointroduce this new thing that we've never heard
of. That's cool, you knowwhat, let's roll with. So let's
see how it goes. So there'sso much that works about Qui gon Jin
both in the story of Star Warsand in this movie, and and Liam
Neeson just knocks it out of thepark. I would argue that it's probably

(46:14):
one of my favorite things about themovie. Yeah, it's cool to see
us on the same page because it'shonestly something I just don't even see a
conversation about. I don't know howanybody nobody hates him, but I've heard
people think that he's useless in thatLiam Neeson is wasted in the role.

(46:36):
And I'm probably I'm not as enthusiasticas you because I still feel like they
could have done more with him.But if you are grabbing at, you
know, a human connection for thismovie, I got that from Qui gon
Jin. I did not get thatfrom even McGregor as Obi Wan Kenobi.

(46:59):
That is something that actually really stoodout to me this time. Is and
I've pointed this out before, butit just felt even more true somehow that
he just doesn't have anything to doin this movie. And there is an
entire section where he's literally taking aback seat. He is just stuck out
there on that spaceship while Qui gonjar Jar and the Queen go out to

(47:23):
you know, meet Anakin discover Anakin. Can I try to defend that for
you, please? I'm curious tohear what you will say. So we
know Obi Wan's significance as the storyprogresses gets more important. Right. What
I think I like about this oneis that they set up the entire time

(47:46):
that Qui Gon is the surrogate fatherto Anakin. That's what he's going to
become. Right. He's the firstperson to really give Anakin real hope that
he can get out of there,ends up getting him out of there.
Puts faith and Anakin when nobody elsehas faith in him to get them out
of the situation that they're in,including his future wife who has no faith

(48:07):
in him at all. Qui Gon'simportance to Anakin's progression is so important that
when you watch this it makes sensethat what Obi Wan is not really a
factor when this first starts. Imean, you know, you get the
sense that if if you know,after you watch the movie, if you

(48:27):
really think about it, you couldget the sense that, oh, well,
if Qui Gon stayed alive, Anakinand Obi Wan would probably be like
he would be like you know,his surrogate brother, you know, they
they would they would have probably thatkind of relationship because you know, they're
not super far off in age.I mean, they're not obi Wan supposed
to be, i think a youngadult at this point, Anakin obviously a

(48:51):
kid, but they end up havingthat relationship. Anyways, what I like
about this is that obi Wan atthat point is sort of forced into a
role of stepping up to a placethat he should have never been in in
the first place, and we seethat throughout the movie. He's not the
one handling all these conflicts, andyes he's still the learner, but he
kind of proves himself to be incapableof it throughout the movie when you really

(49:12):
pay attention to what's happening. Whenhe first when you first start the movie,
he's you know, focusing on otherthings. He's not present in the
moment, which ends up affecting howthey handle things at that point in time.
And even though he ends up defeatingDarth Maul, that's at a point
where he's, you know, he'sgot to step up. His master just
got murdered in front of him.So what I kind of like about this

(49:36):
is that we we are introduced toObi Wan in a way that, like,
this guy is very much still learning. He's very much still behind.
You can already see him sort ofbeing, you know, trying to balance
learning what Qui Gon is teaching himand realizing it's important with what the Jedi
Council really wants him to learn,which is not the same thing that Qui
Gon is teaching him. It justmakes sense for me for him to be

(50:00):
in the backseat so that he canlater fail when trying to, you know,
bring up Anakin in the same wayhe tries to step into a father
role when that's something he could havenever been. That's something Wui Gon was
supposed to be. Unfortunately this didn'tcome to pass. So maybe if you're
just watching this movie alone, Icould see you kind of complaining about it,

(50:21):
But then you wouldn't have anything tocompare him against anyways, because you
wouldn't be comparing it against the originaltrilogy of films. So I think that's
the only fair way to look atit, and that's how I look at
it in my viewing experience. Yeah, I don't know about that. I

(50:42):
mean, I hear your viewpoint andI acknowledge it. I just feel like
you're doing a lot of the workhere in this analysis of Obi Wan more
work than the movie's doing in sellingme most of these most of these details.

(51:09):
So I think I just have toleave it at that. And it's
at least a comfort to know thati McGregor really grows into the role.
He I think becomes almost irreplaceable inthe role. Right. He's certainly more
of a highlight lader, and Iabsolutely agree to that. Yeah, in
Revenge of the Sith, I mean, he's you know, and he's most

(51:30):
people's favorite thing about these prequels,which that was true twenty five years ago.
It's going to be true for areally long time, as it should
be. Yeah, but I justdon't I think if if he doesn't have
the beard, then the magic seemsto be lost for whatever reason. I

(51:52):
can agree with that. I don'tthink he's nearly as impactful as Obi Wan
in this movie, but I II can look past that because of what
I see from that, and obviouslywhat I just described plays into why I'm
okay with him sort of being onthe back seat role in this movie asn't
compared to the next two. Ijust imagine Iwan McGregor reading the script for

(52:15):
this for the first time and gettingto Tattooine and realizing that he doesn't have
a single line for maybe thirty pages. I mean, he he's the one
who tests the blood sample. Hedoes, he's responsible for the Midi Chlorian
count, so he gets to havethat ye hanging over his head. There

(52:42):
you go, you know, Imean, all he did was push a
button. You can't blame him.Qui Gon is the one who ultimately,
if you think about Star Wars,as great of a character as Qui Gon
is, this is kind of allhis fault. He died. First of
all, be better, But secondof all, he's the one who got
the account tested. He's the onewho pushed the council when they when they

(53:02):
vehemently disagreed with training him. Anddid they you know, did he have
some points in that? I meanyeah? And and would it probably have
turned out okay if Qui Gon survived. Yeah, that's why they call it
duel the fates. I mean thatyou're literally watching them duel over the fate
of this child. But it iskind of all his fault. Yeah,

(53:24):
it's definitely his fault that Anakin's momis still a slave. Yeah, another
essential component of the movie, butsomething I wish we didn't get because I
really like, I really like thatactress as Shmie Skywalker as well. I
know he Mekywalker. Man. Justcan give me second to process some of

(53:44):
these names, Shmie. At leastwe didn't get an actual bluff shadow.
I mean we can we can get. I mean, we don't know what
will happen. I've heard reports aboutGeorge Lucas returning to Star Wars, but
it you know, who knows whatelse I don't. I don't hate the

(54:05):
name Shmiskawa. I think it's nota great name, but it's not like
the worst I've ever heard. It'sthe worst I've ever heard. Max Rebo
is probably pretty bad. Well,okay, that's bad because it's a real
name and a boring one with thisstupid gibberish that George Lucas comes up with.

(54:28):
So that's a different category if bad. But what else can we compare
and contrast with, you know,our our reactions of the past to right
now? Good question when I'm whenI'm looking through this, like I do

(54:49):
want to say, like I've beenvery complimentary about the film, there are
a couple of things that did standout for me a little bit more in
the problem category this time around.I think the last few times I've been
really nostalgic and he's don't bother meall too much, Like they're not huge
issues for me. But first ofall, I think introducing Jedi speed was
a really, really bad idea becauseit's never used again still to this day,

(55:14):
has never been used again, andreally effect to it. It's one
of the points of the movie thatI think age is the worst. I
think the movie overall, like watchingit again, Like I do think that
a lot of the CG is prettydecent for the time. I think it
holds up okay as far as,like you know, the context is concerned.

(55:38):
Obviously, it doesn't hold a candibalwhat's happening today, But you know,
I don't think it's too bad.But that's a really bad effect,
and I mean it could creates aplot hole for the movie. I mean,
why didn't Obi Wan use that whenyou know he was far away from
the fight between Qui Gon and DarthMaul. You could argue Obi Wan,
it's Obi Wan's fault then, rightthat Kui gonna die because he didn't use

(56:00):
his Jedi Speed to catch up.I think it was a really bad idea
to throw that in there. Andthis is just this might be nitpicky to
some people, even non Star Warsfans, But why why does the Jedi
mind trick work on the leader ofan entire species of indigenous people to the
land of Naboo, but not ona money hungry slave owner, Because George

(56:24):
Lucas seems to be a social Darwinistsand things that there are i Q discrepancies
between these races that would explain someof the unfortunate stereotypes that will always haunt
this movie and and stain it forme, thankfully. I think I counted

(56:49):
what's his name, Subolba Watto isthe one that owns Anakin Media. Yeah,
he might as well be wearing thestar of David or something. That's
I just hate that he's don thework on the only money. It's like,
oh god, he's got the gotthe nose and everything. It's like,
uh, that one's that one hasalways been the one that stood out

(57:10):
to me is terrible. I don'tknow that the other characters that people complain
about have as much of the actualstereotyping other than the accents that really stand
out to me. Watto is ashining example of the opposite of that.
It's like some Jewish guy made GeorgeLucas mad, so he turned him into
Wado. That's what it seems like. And it's like, where did that
come from? It feels, youknow, And that's what kind of bugs

(57:34):
me about it, is like Ican see how people can say that about
some of the other characters when itcomes to their voices, right with the
you know, you know, likethat's I get it, okay, I
get how somebody'd be upset about theaccent. But at the end of the
day, these are aliens, right, so so I can see the other
side of it where they're like,ah, you know there, you got
to put different accents out there,like you know, maybe they should have

(57:55):
spoken another language, but you knowwhatever, whatever. Watto is the one
that I can never defend. Howhow do you defend that? How do
you defend a b I don't knowhow you defend the the trade people either.
Well, it's not like every timethey come on camera there's like a
no no, no, no no, there be there's just an accent.

(58:15):
I mean they're not using chopsticks oranything. They're just they have they have
a pretty egregious accent. Okay,but you could defend there there is a
world where there is an innocent reasonthat they would have those accents. There's
a world where jar jars accent isinnocent. There is not a world where
anything about why I was innocent.That's not the world we live in.
In this we don't know that whatwere George Lucas's intentions of putting these characters

(58:37):
in there? You talk about theearnestness or the cuteness of this movie.
Maybe it was just an attempt on, you know, getting different races and
species in the movie. It couldhave been a very innocent reason. It's
an eighty year old man. It'san og octogenarian drawing upon the uh cinema
of his past, which was unfortunatelyvery loose and no. But you know,

(59:07):
he grew up a long time ago. Okay, so he grew up
in an era where this stuff wasnormalized Asian stereotyping, uh, you know,
anti Semitism. So obviously he isnot personally racist. I've seen no
evidence to that in his personal life, not that I really know much about

(59:28):
what he thinks or believes about anything. Yeah, but the most charitable interpretation
is that he's just he's letting thethe stereotypes of his past kind of into
his his work, right because it'sa nostalgic project for him, Star Wars.

(59:51):
So not that I'm not saying thatto excuse him. If you're going
to take out anything from Star Warsin futury releases, maybe the no or
maybe change the accents that could help. That's just a suggestion. It's your
movie, George, Actually it's not. It's owned by Disney, who you
called d white slave owners. Howdoes that work? Okay? George Lucas

(01:00:13):
is a guy that once I starttalking about him the the rabbit hole,
it really opens up and swallows mebecause that man is a puzzle. He's
even for me. I mean,who's who's been a fan of George Lucas.
He's one of my biggest inspirations,you know, Star Wars being my
favorite you know franchise out there.There's a lot I don't understand about the

(01:00:37):
man, you know, and especiallyyou know what discount me is. Like
I had this conversation on you know, Twitter x or whatever is like as
money hungry as George Lucas and Disneyboth are and have been for a long
time. I get George Lucas wantingto like make new versions of movie,

(01:01:00):
especially like ninety seven, right when, you know, like, let's get
this back into the attention before werelease our new ones. Let's like put
some CGI in it. Let's makeit, you know, real flashy like.
I get that thought process, andof course you know the money behind
it. But I have no cluewhy there have been no physical, real
physical releases of the original cuts ofany of these movies, even the Phantom

(01:01:23):
Menace, which we're talking about rightnow. I don't have proof of this
because I did not go to thetheaters and see it. I couldn't make
it. We literally had tickets andhad to cancel the day before. But
I can almost guarantee you that Yodawas CGI and not a puppet like he
was in the original Phantom Menace,the original cut, and there were scenes

(01:01:43):
that were cut out from the whenit was in theaters to when it went
on DVD. And these versions werenever made available to anybody after they've been
changed. As much money as youwant to make, why would you not
do that. You could milk physicalmedia buyers like crazy if you just release
the four K version of your editsand throw in an extra disc with the
original one, charge an extra twentybucks. I can say, it's his

(01:02:07):
movie, it's not your movie,you whiny fanboy, you know what?
And like I'm I am not asangry about him saying that as other people.
The only thing is is, likepeople make your career is built on
the connection that people make with yourwork, and you have every right to
go back and change that work.I feel like you don't have a right

(01:02:29):
to deprive people of what they originallyconnected with, though it's not the same
movie. So that's sort of whatI was getting at with the with with
my question of would this movie beconsidered woke? I think what I was
really trying to get at is thisweird revisionism and how George Lucas is perceived
by the fan community, because really, this man is the reason why we

(01:02:53):
have this discourse about fans versus creatorsright now with Star Wars like this is
where the whole chance of listen tothe fans. You're you know, you're
hurting the fans right, you know, the battered housewives of Star Wars fandom.

(01:03:15):
That's where that started was George Lucasand his special editions in his prequel
movies. And now the fans whoare who are crying out in agony over
whatever state Star Wars it's in rightnow. Listen to the fans. They
want George Lucas back, They wanthim to come up and buy it or

(01:03:36):
take it over. They want that. They wish that his sequels had been
made instead of the Disney ones.And it's like, honey, you can't
get back together with your toxic X. I know that it's easy to remember
all the good times and none ofthe bad times, But do you remember
how he treated you? Do youremember? I guess Let me let me

(01:03:59):
ask you this question as a Ibelieve we talked about this on the last
time. You know, we talkedabout these two Star Wars movies. I
can't recall for certain, but Iwant to ask you right now, you
know, having revisited this since ourlast time, as a kind of casual
I'd say you're more casual fan ofStar Wars, not a huge fan of
A. Yeah, I'm a casualfan of Star Wars. Would you prefer

(01:04:24):
the Disney approach or the George Lucasapproach? If you if in the perfect
world, if you were going tomake. If you were going to make
the decision, somebody tells you you'rethe one that's got to make the call.
Are you Are you putting it backin George Lucas's hands? Are you
keeping it with Disney? Now?Uh, let's let's let's go back in
history too. When it was sold. Uh, George asks you, do

(01:04:48):
I sell it or do I keepit? What do you say? Now?
I would urge against a sale toDisney, but I would also urge
George to to pass Star Wars onto a new generation of filmmakers. I
mean, he had been bringing peopleup through Lucasfilm. Lucasfilm at the time

(01:05:13):
that you know, the prequels weregetting fan higher. They were having very
successful projects with the Clone Wars right, the Clone Wars Show and other stuff
that I'm not as familiar with,but I know the fans were very happy
with a lot of the stuff Lucasfilmwas doing at the time. So I
wish Star Wars had stayed with Lucasfilm, and I wish George had, you

(01:05:34):
know, just become more of asenior statesman and given the reins of power
to some new blood. That's fairassessment. The ironic thing is that he
did not want to direct The PhantomMenace. He called every director in town

(01:05:54):
and they politely said no, evenhis best friend Steven Spielberg, who said,
I think this is your movie,George, which is you know that's
helped me talk for I ain't wantnothing to do with this. This I
Metchlorians, I don't want nothing todo with that. That's I think that's
part of kind of what makes mesad about this movie in retrospect. I

(01:06:15):
mean, Marcia Lucas even said thatthat she felt like crying after watching this
because she felt like it was sobad. You know, That's that's sad
to me. Like Marcia Lucas isthe savior of Star Wars. I've I've
gone on record and saying that Ibelieve that wholeheartedly. She's the reason that
we are all here. Without her, we would have seen the most boring,

(01:06:36):
poorly directed film of all time inthe sci fi genre. And that's
saying something because I've seen some ofthe of the of the you know,
original film of the Star Wars movie. Yes not, it's not good,
And that's coming from a lifelong fan. Star Wars has changed my life.
I think I think I want tosay this too. I also would have

(01:06:57):
encouraged probably something similar to you.I don't know that I would have left
it in the same hands that Disney'sleaving it in now. Who, by
the way, like Dave Filoni wasone of the people who came up and
made a lot of things that fanslove and fans are still loving. Yeah,
and John Favreau, right, AndJohn Favreau is another guy who's,
you know, a lifelong Star Warsfan and has done a good job of
kind of putting things together on thetelevision side. I hope they get things

(01:07:20):
together on the film side. Butultimately, if you would have given me
a choice, you know, Ithink it would have been better off in
the hand, and not even justfor the film purposes, you know.
I'm happy that people have connected withthe Disney films the same way I connected
with the original trilogy first and thenthese movies. I'm so happy that people
are just enjoying Star Wars, andI would hate for that to be gone

(01:07:42):
from somebody. But at the sametime, I can appreciate some of the
overly disneyification of things when appropriate.I think there is a place in this
world for a Disney movie. Idon't know that it's in Star Wars.
Let's distinguish between between Disney of likeclassic Disney and then the Disney Corporation,

(01:08:11):
the Disney conglomerate, you know,the Disney empire that runs things right now.
I mean a lot of people alwayscompared Walt George Lucas to a young
Walt Disney. That's something that makesthe state of Star Wars and Disney kind
of tragic, is that it's,you know, that should have been a

(01:08:32):
match made in heaven, right,And a lot of people have the same
thought. When the Muppets got soldto Disney. I don't know if you're
big Muppets I think I remember ustalking about this. You're not the biggest
Muppets fan, right, I'm sortof I'm one of those people who's just
kind of indifferent. I didn't growup watching a ton of it, so
like it's not something I'm super sentimentalabout, but like, I certainly have
an appreciation for you. Yeah,so, as somebody a big Muppets fan,

(01:08:56):
I long for more Muppets content.And I can tell you that when
the Muppets got sold to Disney intwo thousand and four. Jim Henson had
been trying to negotiate that sale atthe time of his death, and people
thought, finally, the Muppets aren'tDisney's hand, Oh my god, what's
you know? Let's see what theydo with it. And the answer was

(01:09:20):
one really really great movie, kindof the prototype for what they're doing with
all their other softer reboots, right, the Jason Siegal Muppets Movie, although
it's quite good, and then abit of a disappointing sequel, and then
nothing Right. They tried a seasonof television on ABC. They've done some

(01:09:40):
specials, and then they did aDisney Plus show and it's been this weird
drought of Muppets content and this isDisney, like, what are you doing?
Why would you buy this and siton it just because I don't know,
one or two projects kind of didn'tturn out the way you expected.

(01:10:00):
Oh and now now I'm turning thisinto a Disney Muppets ex per se.
But they fired the puppeteer of Kermit. They fired Steve Whitmeyer, who had
been puppeting Kermit after Jim Henson's death, so he had been Kermit's puppeteer for
twenty five years. They fired hisass, they canned him. Disney's decision

(01:10:23):
making over the last God, it'sgot to be over a decade at this
point, has just been some ofthe most confusing, you know, for
a company that wants to make asmuch money as they do, and do
they do to their credit. Imean the Disney Parks. I think our
genius idea, I think huge revenueearner. I'm not somebody who's just like

(01:10:46):
cold against the business world. Yeah, I'm quite fascinated by it. So,
you know, like finding ways togive something to the consumer that makes
them want to purchase your product.I mean, I got no problem with
them doing that, but they they'renot doing that. Like Star Wars.
It took them, you know,they bought Star Wars and what two thousand,
wasn't it twenty twelve wasn't it?Wasn't it right around the time they

(01:11:09):
were releasing these Uh, it waslike it was twenty twelve when they purchased
Star Wars. They released Force Awakensin twenty fifteen and by all accounts at
the time, pretty well received.Some people had some problems, some people
didn't, but they were just happyto see Star Wars again. And while
I think the whole argument that theDisney movies ruined Star Wars. I don't

(01:11:29):
think anything can really ruin Star Wars. I think it's a big enough name
and there's enough out there that peoplelove already that there will always be some
market for some Star Wars and theshows are a good indicator of that.
But the love for Star Wars didn'tpick back up again until those shows.
I mean, like widely, thesemovies were widely panned, and it's just

(01:11:50):
sad to me that right now there'snot like a concrete here's what's next,
right Like, we know some showsthat are coming, and we have a
general idea that there's some movies coming, but we don't know anything about it.
Several have been canceled or reworked atalready, and I'm sort of disappointed
that Lucasfilm didn't get the opportunity tobecome one of its, you know,

(01:12:12):
owned big things. You know,Star Wars is such a money maker that
if George Lucas right now was sittingon what he had with Lucasfilm before,
and maybe just like even if hewanted to like keep himself as the head
of the company but hire like aVP to like run everything non Star Wars.
Could you imagine how big Lucasfilm wouldbe. I mean, Lucasfilm did
the Indiana Jones movies. Those movieswere huge, So it's like they could

(01:12:36):
have been one of these big studios, not alongside Disney, but you know,
like they they could have worked theirway up and at this point,
with George Lucas eventually moving on,you know, or unfortunately one day he
will pass like all of us,it would have been in the hands of
somebody to try to take it intothat next stratosphere. And now it's just

(01:12:57):
another revenue stream. It's just anotherthing that eventually, if it dries up,
it's either going away or they're gettingrid of it. They're selling it.
That's just sad to see. Idon't want to see Star Wars be
a shell of itself, and Idon't think it is. I think the
shows are really breathing life into it. But yeah, this re release of

(01:13:19):
this movie has kind of made methink a lot about Star Wars since it's
happened, and it's made me alittle bit more sad to see where Star
Wars is. Even if they comeout with good stuff, it's just not
quite the same. Well, theaudience is there, The waiting for a
Star Wars movie in theaters is there, very much so, and it has

(01:13:43):
not been supplied to the satisfaction ofpeople. And I don't know, it's
see the Phantom Menace. There maydifferent types of failures in the world,
and the Phantom Menace is the typeof failure that will get a second wind
and has gone a second wind despiteall the odds. And I just don't
think Disney failures are the same.I think they're too utilitarian and purpose right.

(01:14:11):
They're designed for, you know,a major box office weekend. They're
designed to be a tie in tothe million other projects they have going on,
right, so they just don't havea shelf life. I mean the
Rise of Skywalker. I understand thatthere are some fans of the movie.

(01:14:33):
I just can't really envision that havingthe box office gross on a re release
that the Phantom Menace has had.But hey, that's that might be.
Might be what people said about thePhantom Menace and they've been proven wrong,
so you know, standards are goingto continue to change. I will say
no, I've been I've been hesitantto bring this up. I'm a little

(01:14:55):
scared what this says about the culturethat a movie that used to be considered
kind of bottom of the barrel twentyfive years ago is compared to the current
crop of new releases from major studiosis looking pretty good. Right. So
that's another side of the conversation thatI think would be too disparaging to have
right now. Frankly, yeah,And I mean, at the end of

(01:15:18):
the day, one thing that's helpedus too, and I'll give it a
little credit is people always want somethingto hate. And at the time,
you know, when before this moviecame out, it was Return of the
Jedi. After this movie came out, it was this movie, and then
after the the sequels came out,it was the sequels. And now people
are coming back around to us.So there's a little bit more there than

(01:15:38):
just what we've discussed so far.But I honestly, you know, unless
you had anything else you wanted tobring up about the movie, I think
this is a good time to,you know, look back at our final
verdicts and see if we want tochange or strengthen our opinion, just so
that everybody knows where we stood lasttime before we dive back into this as
well. Gabe went first last timeand gave us a not that bad compared

(01:16:04):
and contrasted the feeling of the moviewith the experience in watching it. I
gave us an actually great, whichwas the first time that had ever happened
on our show when we covered thismovie at the time of covering it.
So, Gabe, I will jumpto you here. You did go first
last time. Ivan, I'm gonnahave you go first this time. Let

(01:16:27):
the audience know and me, Idon't know. I don't know how you're
gonna come out of this. Haveyou changed in your final verdict of this
movie since our last time watching it? And if so, what went into
that? I'm going to land onthe same verdict as before, and I'll
reinforce it bye by saying this.I like this movie as an underdog black

(01:16:54):
sheep type of affair. I likeits subversive nature, but I don't I
don't want to embrace it as amodel or as a as something to be
to be emulated right or looked upto. You know. It's like I

(01:17:16):
said, it has many many flawswith a range of severity there and I
still haven't found quite my my humanconnection, although maybe on another rewatch and
another rewatch I can finally really youknow, cling on to Qui gon Jin

(01:17:38):
as my human connection. But forright now it is. It's a fascinating
movie. It's a curious movie,one with a lot of eye candy,
and it was actually quite impressed athow the effects still hold up twenty five
years later. I'm not going torepeat the miss thinks that the movie's made

(01:18:00):
because we all know them, butI'm gonna say that the that the kind
of obsession with with trade routes andsenate machinations still brings a smile to my
face. And it's certainly a moviethat is is due for a reappraisal,

(01:18:27):
and I will give it. Iwill reinforce the not that bad status by
giving it They not that bad,very fair, very fair. And you
know when I'm when I'm looking atthis again, Phantom Menace. First,

(01:18:48):
I'm very happy to see it doso well on re release. I mean,
I think, no matter how anybodyfeels about this movie, it's just
cool to see something come back andfeet and not only do well, but
like do well enough to be upthere with actual releases of the time.
It's a sad state of movies thatwere in if that's the case or movie

(01:19:09):
going. But it's cool to seelast time I gave this an actually great
And what I wish I could dois I wish I for right now.

(01:19:31):
I wish I was Cody Leech sothat I could use his unique ranking for
our show and say this is actuallyfucking awesome. He is the He is
the only one to ever introduce arating on our show, and I wish
I could do it. It's it'sfor him and him only. Look,
you know, this movie has someissues. It has some things that stand
out when I watch it, butalmost none of them. Especially the more

(01:19:56):
that I watched this, I wouldthink my issues would become more ling and
then I would have more problems withthem. But I'm I wouldn't even say
more forgiving. They just don't botherme or they don't even come into my
head when I'm watching it. Andthat's something that I think I try to
achieve with every movie that I watch. I want to enjoy everything I see,

(01:20:16):
but there's just so much happiness thatI have when I watch this movie.
I mean from start to finish,from opening title crawl, from the
opening twentieth Century Fox intro on thecopy that I watch all the way through
to the end of the movie.I'm having a great time. I'm enjoying
most of what I see. I'menjoying the world building. I'm enjoying one

(01:20:41):
of the coolest characters in the historyof Star Wars and film for that matter,
in Darth Maul, as far asdesign is concerned. There's so much
that I have to enjoy about thismovie that, you know, it would
be impossible for me to change myrating as far as this show is concerned.
But I've actually upped the rating onmy letterbox for this movie after this

(01:21:03):
most recent viewing. Haven't put thereview in yet, but I'm gonna up
it, and I'm happy to dothat. This is easily one of my
favorite Star Wars movies. It isIt is a top five Star Wars film
in my mind, and one ofI could honestly say this is. This
is you know, on the listof however many favorite movies, you know,

(01:21:26):
this this is one that I wouldI would be proud to say is
on there. That's not where Iexpect you to go. I thought you
were gonna go lower. So it'sactually it's it's a surprise, but a
welcome one. Yeah, I wantedto make it sound like I was going
lower early in the episode, butno, I I swear to you once

(01:21:46):
again, not really. I mean, you know, like with Star Wars,
that that's the thing, you know. I I talked about, joked
about not being impartial at the beginningof the episode, and I don't really
want to be in a world wheremovie to discussion is impartial. I mean,
that's part of what we love aboutmovies, right is how it makes
us feel and how we feel aboutthem. I think that's a factor into

(01:22:08):
any opinion that you're talking about.So if people want to discredit me for
that, go for it. Butthis movie, this movie fucking kicks ass
kicks ass. Okay, well youheard it here again. We thought that
we had come to our senses.I guess not. We are still at
least Condor is still banging the drumof the Phantom Menace after our first conversation

(01:22:29):
about it. And maybe if werevisit this movie again for its it's fiftieth
anniversary, if we're still doing thispodcast, you know, years from now,
do that would be awesome? Thenwe can really, you know,
our verdict will be its actually greatestgast of all time, keep pushing boundaries.

(01:22:54):
We're going to create a new ratingbetter than Empire. Let's go ahead
and end this conversation before that lineof thinking can go any further. Thank
you for checking out our first revisitedepisode. We've been thinking about doing revisits

(01:23:15):
for a while. It was areally great opportunity to do it while the
Phantom Menace is all the rage butthe kids at these days. So let
us know how you enjoyed this,and we'll see if we can continue to
revisit any of our old episodes forthe future. Revisit our old episodes for
the future. Yeah, makes sense, nailed it? Boom, got it.

(01:23:39):
Yeah, somebody support us, Connor, Oh, they can support us.
They can support us in a coupleof places. Of course, you
can head on over if you're feelingsuper generous to our patreon. Our patreon
is the step to do bigger andbetter things with not that bad you know,
we're really happy to have one thatpeople can give us money in.

(01:24:02):
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(01:24:25):
Sometimes it might be the first timeyou're seeing something that we're trying out for
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ever seen other than our patrons,and you only get that when you sign
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(01:24:46):
there's plenty of other ways to supportthe show, like comment, subscribe,
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(01:25:11):
two favorite Terrible Take artists and Gabeand I, even a description of how
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come. So check it out ifyou'd like to support us. But for
now we're done hoooring ourselves out onceagain. And Gabe, would you like
to take us out? I wouldlove to do nothing more. All right,

(01:25:32):
everybody, May the Force be withyou and if you're Catholic, and
also with you. This is GabeMesa Connor and this is not that bad,
saying why did we do this again? This is not that bad signing out