Saw 3D - Game Over for the Saw Movies - That Bad Media

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Hello, game, I want to play, man. I have a
challenge for all of you podcasters out there. When you
talk about Saw movies, you don't have to open with
I want to play a game. It's like when you
talk about the Texas Chainsaw Masker, you don't have to

(00:38):
start with the scroll. These two podcasters set out to
talk about one of the most controversially.

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Reason I did it is because we missed out on
the opportunity to do that for our Texas Chainsaw Massacre
three episodes. So I said, you know what, there's not
enough cliches on this channel. I need to put one
in this episode. So you're welcome, by the way.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Yeah, well, now in case you guys can't see the
title or the thumbnail, now you definitely know what franchise
we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
I wonder what we give me talking about today, folks. Yes,
we are back with the Not That Bad podcast. Here
we are discussing yet another movie that people do not like.
In that movie has I mean many names if you
really want to, if you really want to get down
to it. Saw three D, Saw seven, Saw the Final Chapter,

(01:31):
Saw three D.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
The Final Chapter, Saw the Final Chapter three D, SAW
The Final Chapter three d you know, call it whatever
you would like.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
At this point, I'm sure nobody will bat an eye.
This was released in twenty ten, originally meant to be
a two parter directed by Kevin Gruder, who actually directed
the one before this, which Saw six.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
And he directed Saw six, and he came back to
direct Saw ten. Previously, he was the editors of all
of these Saw movies. He was the editor on all
the Saw movies starting with the original. Thank god to
direct Saw six, which is some people's favorite and some
people would be me. Then he came back for Saw ten,

(02:13):
which was a beautiful comeback for this franchise. Not to
disparage Spiral, which was a comeback in its own way,
but it was a great comeback for you know, the
Jigsaw family, you know John Kramer and his his crew
and his storyline. So, yeah, Kevin Gruder, is that how

(02:36):
you pronounce his name?

Speaker 2 (02:38):
I sure, I'm just gonna say it is. I feel
bad for the guy if I'm pronouncing it wrong.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Yeah, you can tell Howm's research goes into one of
these episodes. But yeah, not much.

Speaker 2 (02:48):
No.

Speaker 1 (02:49):
This was his second time directing a Saw movie, and
it turned out it would be the last Saw movie
for a while because Saw six did not make so
much money for some reason, for some damn reason, I guess. Wait,
this is our first time talking about the Saw movies

(03:09):
on this channel, right.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Ah, yeah, we have somehow we've never touched the franchise before,
which is crazy because I love it and I'm really
surprised you've never defended I love it.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
It's it's simultaneously one of the biggest horror franchises and
I think at least one of the most polarizing. For
a time, I would have said one of the most disliked.
You know, people kind of forget this now that we're
in an elevated horror age. But back in the day,
if you really liked horror movies, if that was part
of your identity, people treated you like there was something

(03:43):
seriously wrong with you. And and Saw was the poster
child for that, even the first one, which is relatively
tame and relatively admired, you know, for what it is
and what it started. Yeah, there was a huge stigma
to these movies, and I think you really culminated in
this Saw the final chapter, Saw three D.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
This did not do many favors for horror fans. I
mean for me even still today, sometimes it's weird how
much that landscape has changed. You know, when you turn
on Good Morning America and they're talking about Terrifier two
and you're like, what is going on? What is happening?
It's still a little weird for me. But back then,
I mean, it's not like these weren't still making money.

(04:29):
They weren't making the same money that it was making
at its peak. But even this movie here had a
seventeen million dollar budget, made one hundred and thirty six
point two million dollars at the box office, which is
pretty impressive. It's a big return. I mean, the returns
are going down, but they still made it happen. Unfortunately, however,
they may have read the room correctly, because nine percent

(04:51):
on Rotten Tomatoes and an eventual two point three out
of five on Letterbox indicates that the fans weren't necessarily
super happy with this now were.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
I just have to say that, you know, we were
not seeing these movies at this time. We were not
fans right of the Saw films at this time as
they were coming out. I'm really curious what my out
of theater reaction would have been walking out of of Saw,
the final chapter, I feel like I would have been
in line with a lot of those voices of disappointment,

(05:26):
you know. But yeah, I mean now we get to
look back and now it's not the final chapter. Now
it's just, you know, another another Jigsaw movie. And I
think compared to some of the stuff that's come after,
it's a pretty good one.

Speaker 2 (05:42):
Oh my god. Yeah, I meant to ask you this, so,
you know, having having said you know the context of
these movies, where this one is seven films in, you know,
the first one coming out in two thousand and four,
this is actually twenty years this year since the first
Saw movie came out. You may not have and a
fan as they were coming out. You know, we were

(06:02):
pretty young throughout the duration of the release of these
original movies. So what is sort of your past with
the Saw franchise. Do you have like a like a
pretty strong connection to it, or do you you just
kind of a little weaker on it like some people.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
Know, I have a deep past with the Saw films.
I have. I have a bit of a loyalty to it,
and that's probably because it belongs to a sacred genre
for me, which is weekends movies. At my friend's house flicks,
you know, going over to a friend's house and marathoning

(06:37):
the Saw movies, debating which ones were the best, talking
about our our favorite traps, our favorite our favorite villains,
our favorite heroes. You know, really really appreciating these movies
as a franchise and not a you know, a torture
porn extravaganza. Although you know, you have to admire how
gnarly and creative some of these traps are. And I

(07:00):
don't I don't disparage people who come to these movies
for that, for that reason, to enjoy what sick, twisted
innovation will come with the next Saw movie. That's a
big part of the appeal for me. There's a lot
of creativity there. But man, it's no it's the lore
of Jigsaw. It's the it's the mythos it's the it's

(07:23):
the mythology, mythology and weirdly to say for for a
little slasher series of movies, but the philosophy, the philosophy
at the heart of all these movies. And I I
really don't say that in any kind of tongue in
cheek way. I I think you know, that's what John
Kramer represents to me is like he represents a worldview

(07:44):
which is not something you can really say about Freddy
or Jason or Chucky or yeah, all those dudes that
I love, but he he does represent something really different
from them, not something that's not something that this movie
capitalizes on very well. You know, Jigsaw died in the
third movie, and he has maybe three minutes of screen time,

(08:07):
which is hilarious. The most iconic daging like why are
we spending millions of dollars? Why are we spending millions
of dollars to d age these actors when you can
just stick a backwards baseball cap on them.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
We will certainly get there. It is so funny. I
oh my god. There are a lot of things in
this movie that are unintentionally hilarious. We'll kind of get
to them as we go. I know, for me, like
my first experience was so I don't know if this
was the same for you. I don't remember if it
was AMC or not. But when I was a kid,
occasionally they would show the first three Saw movies on television,

(08:46):
and so you'd be able to see, you know, kind
of what these movies were about. And I had the
fortune of seeing them on television first as a kid,
so that my parents knew what they were. But you know,
they saw a majority of the scenes and felt like, ah,
you know, there's no nudity, he'll be fine. That was
their only rule really when I was a kid, just

(09:06):
don't do that.

Speaker 1 (09:07):
And what a rule that is, right, I mean, think
about think about this, the way we scrutinize violence, you know,
blood letting, maiming, the torture. How much less to scrutinize
that then than just sex and nudity. I mean, gen
Z our generation is furiously trying to stamp out sex

(09:28):
in movies. But I don't hear any of them complaining
about about torture scenes or you know, gore. I mean,
I'm sure there are some of those voices out there,
but it's not a movement the way it is to
to get rid of, you know, sex and nudity, which
I guess the Saw movies are for you then, because
this has to be the least sexy series of movies.

(09:50):
I mean, goddamn every Like, when I think of the
Saw movies, I think of like a gas station bathroom.

Speaker 2 (09:57):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, after the first movie, that's
kind of hard. I mean there basically in this like
what I've been in many gas station bathrooms that like
that first Saw movie, you know, minus the bathtub, but
if some of them could use one. But no, I
mean like this was actually the first Saw movie I owned,

(10:17):
was the Final Chapter. I mean, it came out in
twenty ten. I probably purchased it in twenty twelve, so
you know, it's been on DVD for a while. Hit
the bargain bin, I picked it up, and since then
I had seen you know, on demand was a fantastic
service for us kids growing up because you could see
movies on there that you normally wouldn't be able to

(10:38):
or that year, you know, maybe you weren't allowed to watch.
And so I had seen all of them. And this
movie came out and I bought it on DVD before
I even watched it, which is a trend for me.
It's something I have had to stop doing thanks to
several movies over the last few years. But this movie
held a special place in my heart for a long time.

(10:58):
In fact, before I was like horror groups and stuff,
I didn't know anybody disliked this movie. I was shocked
to see how people felt about it.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Well, this was the first song movie I was aware
of as it came out. Like, I remember seeing the
poster whenever I visited the theater around this time two
and nine, twenty ten, a poster that is larger than
life and kind of you know, the movie doesn't really
deliver on the promise of the scale of the post.

Speaker 2 (11:28):
I would agree on, yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Not that, not that any reasonable person would really expect that.
I would have loved to have seen a Megatron Jigsaw
kind of like come out I do.

Speaker 4 (11:41):
At the end, see like you know what, Like how
many eighties movies you know, Like, that's one of my
biggest gripe with eighties movies is sometimes you're tricked into
watching them by this incredible poster and then you watch
it and it's it's just awful. But yeah, like, how
many eighties movies live up to their post Like Gremlin's
Two came out in ninety and that poster was crazy

(12:06):
and the movie was crazy. But what other movies live
up to their crazy posters?

Speaker 2 (12:10):
No?

Speaker 1 (12:10):
You know how people complain that oftentimes the trailer is
better than the movie. Well, back in the eighties, it
was the poster that was better than the movies.

Speaker 2 (12:18):
By and large, seven was bringing that back.

Speaker 1 (12:22):
It was bringing them back in style. You know what
else it was bringing back. It was three D three
D in horror. It brought back two things. It brought
back three D and it brought back calling yourself the
final chapter when you were nowhere near the final chapter.
You have no rights, yeah, to call yourself the final chapter. Now,
this was the final chapter for a while. It wasn't
like what Friday the thirteenth, I think part five came

(12:44):
out just a year after their final chapter. So chicksaw
he was dead and buried for a while, and they
only recently decided to actually continue this storyline. They tried
to reboot it twice. I guess neither of those really stuck.
Why I wonder why Jigsaw didn't take off?

Speaker 2 (13:03):
Yeah, you know, and I just I just want to
say this, you know, like we are pretty positive on
this show. There's a reason we're talking about Saw seven
and not a movie like Jigsaw. That is an example
of a movie that contributed towards my sort of rule
nowadays of not purchasing a movie without having watched it first,

(13:25):
which is which is I'm gonna break that rule very soon.
There's a movie that's coming out on on physical media
over the next sometime in the next couple of months,
that I will be breaking that rule for But generally
now I have to watch a movie first, and luckily
streaming makes that pretty easy. But Jigsaw was one of
those movies. We got it on a vacation, like right

(13:47):
after it came out. We were like, hey, let's watch
it during our downtime.

Speaker 1 (13:50):
Uh, And.

Speaker 2 (13:53):
I hate that. I detest that movie, and there are
there were no other Saw movies before that point that
I detested. So we'll see if this viewing held that
up for me.

Speaker 1 (14:02):
I don't know if it. I don't know if I
did test Jigsaw that would require me to have any
feeling towards it. I just have no love for it.
It's the only film in this franchise that I really
have no affection for now. Saw seven, hmm. Affection is

(14:23):
a strong word for Saw seven, but in a way
that it represents, I guess, you know, where horror movies
were during my childhood, and represents this moment in time
when you know the Saw movies were at their peak.
You know they I guess had started with they got

(14:43):
those diminishing returns starting with Saw six for whatever reason,
and Saw seven is nowhere near as good as Saw six.
But well, like take the opening scene for example, our
opening kills. Let's yeah, okay, this is kind of this
represents the best that this franchise represents. Okay, we have

(15:05):
our first public trap. These two bozos have a buzz
saw between them and the girl that they're both hooking
up with is dangling over their heads and they have
to either kill each other or kill her. And let
me tell you something, man, when George Melias helped pioneer

(15:27):
the Moving picture, he had no idea that that venture
would one day lead to Saw seven. And I think
that's a shame that he has no idea that he
helped pave the path for this. I mean, am I
am I hyping this up too much? It's one of
my favorite like Saw traps in the series, and it

(15:48):
sets the perfect tone for Saw seven because it lets
you know that this is not one of those Saw
movies that takes itself ultra seriously, like I think Saw
Saw three through five been criticized.

Speaker 2 (16:00):
For Yeah, and you know, first of all, I completely agree, Like,
I think it's an incredible way to open up a
Saw movie. Especially seven movies. In the fact that it
grabs you that much during the opening I think is awesome.
I I like it for two reasons. First of all, yeah,

(16:22):
it's not too like, you know, overly serious. Like you said,
the last three movies you could criticize for doing that.
Four through six sort of sort of took themselves to
a level where it's like, okay, Like you can have
a little bit of fun with a movie like this.
I think you almost need to at certain scenes. You know,
there's a lot of really terrible shit that you're watching,

(16:45):
and sometimes it's happening to terrible people. But I feel
like sometimes horror fans forget that, like like this is
this is pretty awful that this is happening to people.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Oh no, Oh my gosh. I had this one moment
of real reflection one time when I was watching h
I think The Saw too, and my wife wasn't watching
with me. She hates these movies, but she was off somewhere,
and then she walked in on me watching I think
the needle pit scene.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
Oh yeah, needle Pit, absolutely, and I.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
Just felt like a real sense of shame. It was
it was like she walked in on me watching porn
or something, and just I finally had to say, I
guess these movies are a little mean spirited, aren't they.

Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah, I'll say this, there's so the The other reason
I appreciate that first kill is the is the reason
I sort of appreciate all of them in this movie.
And I'm gonna get into it a little bit later,
but it plays into a big difference between the character
of Jigsaw that we meet, you know, and see through
the first it's pretty heavily through the first three films,
especially and Uh and Hoffman Detective Hoffman and and what

(17:51):
differences they have in how they set their saw traps
up and it. It really makes me appreciate it a
little bit more. But that doesn't change the fact that
while you're watching it, you know, it can be really tough.
And we're gonna get to one in a couple of
minutes here as we go through this movie that is
also very memorable and very rough to watch. In fact,
a lot of this movie is.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
That my skin playing skinhead.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
But yes, we see this this public love triangle play
out in front of people, which I thought incredible concept.
It's executed pretty well. There are things that maybe could
have been done better, But like you said, it sort
of plays into this not taking itself as seriously.

Speaker 1 (18:34):
Yeah, this is the campiest I think these original movies. Right, God,
there there is something very creepy about the voyeurism of
having to go through this.

Speaker 2 (18:44):
Oh yeah, all these.

Speaker 1 (18:45):
People watching you. But yeah, I laughed out loud when
that lady tried to smash the glass with their briefcase, like,
oh my god, these people are gonna die. What can
we do to save them? Here? My lo their bound
briefcase will save the day. And it's so dramatic, like
once she taps the window with your case and it

(19:07):
doesn't break, and there's like that that saw like music cue,
like oh my god, Like there's no way to save
these people. Like oh maybe maybe maybe if you got
to have your briefcase. Maybe if you got an authority,
a person of authority, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (19:22):
Maybe if you put a brick in your briefcase for
emergency situations like this lady. No, it it in con
I think what I like about it so much is
that in execution it's not laughably bad, but it does,
you know, like there are things about it that make
you chuckle. But in actual concept, like, think of being

(19:42):
in public. You're you're just taking a walk, and then
you see this happening in front of you. It's a
terrifying concept.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
It absolutely is it. And and that's where I think
this movie kind of hits its stride. Is like gnarly
concepts executed with just enough tongue in cheek kind of
I don't know, mischievousness to to make it palatable. I mean,
if Chester Bennington weren't playing a skinhead, and if you know,

(20:11):
the people involved weren't all skinned heads, you know, if
the people involved weren't all Daily Wire subscribers, then I
don't Uh, I don't know if I could properly Was
that too far? Is that too far? Maybe? Maybe a little,
but uh I seriously. But but to make it a
real point, I don't know how well I could stomach

(20:32):
this movie if the people involved weren't objectively terrible and
and obviously that's where you get into the question, well
is it torture porn? If you want these people to die?
And I don't know if I want them to die.
I think I'm just not as bothered by their death.
I mean, there there is an innocent person who does
get it at the end of this movie, and that

(20:52):
was genuinely fucking brutal to watch.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
Oh no, it's tough. And I mean even these scenes,
like you know, I think.

Speaker 5 (21:01):
What I I like it about this movie Again, I'm
gonna explain why later, but like, this movie, probably more
than any other, just makes me squirm and it makes
me uncomfortable because it shows a very clear trend with
how these movies are going.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
But I don't think it does it in the way
that a lot of its detractors say that it does.
I you know, especially this first trap, Like these people
did not really deserve to go through this, right, Like
these two guys have to choose whether or not they
were going to kill the other one or the woman
that they've been sleeping with, who is suspended above them

(21:37):
and slowly descending into a large moving saw. Right Like,
that's not like nothing that she did justify that for her.
They didn't really do anything wrong personally.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
No, it's horror movie logic. Like when you cheer on somebody,
you know, being killed in a horror movie, or you
think somebody just deserves to die, I mean you're not
You're not judicating that person the way you would in
real life. You know, it's just the visceral thrill of
seeing an unpleasant person get it in some gnarly way.

(22:09):
I mean sometimes in horror movies you do get people
who deserve their fate, and you get plenty of those
through the Saw movies. And right, it's an interesting debate
to see if we think Sean Patrick Flannery deserves what
he gets or not. There'll be an interesting debate once
we get there, or discussion. But yeah, but these guys,

(22:32):
I mean, the worst, the crime of sleeping with the
girl who's manipulating them. Also, I have to say this,
I'm really glad this came out in twenty ten, way
before any of this red pill shit started to pop
up online, because that would really color my perception of
this scene. But we weren't there. Yeah, in twenty ten,

(22:54):
we were still writing the Obama High. Yes we can,
and I will.

Speaker 2 (22:58):
Say too with this. Uh, I'm again there's something that
I want to wait to say it till later, But
I think there's a justification for something like this in
this movie that really will help. It helped my perception,
so hopefully it'll help somebody else's of these kills. But
after after this so these these you know, ultimately these
two men realize that this woman is manipulating them after

(23:21):
she after she cheers on one of them when it
looks like he's winning, then she cheers on the other one.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Well, that's my favorite part of that's my favorite part
of this whole thing is actually.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
And they decide she will die, which is I think
a pretty reasonable thing to do at that point, difficult decision,
but they do it in.

Speaker 1 (23:39):
A they don't treat it like a difficult decision we're
breaking up with.

Speaker 2 (23:44):
Yeah, it's it's handled pretty. And let's just say this.
I just want to say this up front. You know,
despite good things I'm going to say about this movie,
there is a pretty significant and very obvious drop in
quality for writing and acting in this movie. I don't
want to blame the actors, you know, I don't like
to do that.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
I know you're not talking about my man carry always.
I know you're not talking about my man carry.

Speaker 2 (24:09):
I would never say a bad word about that man,
No matter what man, I would never say a bad
word about that man. I mean, obviously in the you
know way Hollywood works today, who knows what will come
out about him.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
But I don't.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I don't think he's one of those.

Speaker 1 (24:20):
As an actor, as a as a absolutely say a
bad word about carry Ells and here's I guess, something
of a hot take. It's definitely something that people are
divided on. I like his performance in the first Saw.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
I like his performance in in the First Saw. I
like his performance in this one. You know, he's not
in this one a lot, but like I like how
I like how there's just something a little off about him,
you know, like he he could he's a reasonable person
where you could say, like, okay, he would come across
as like pretty normal, but there's something off about him.
And that's kind of the point of these movies, right is.

Speaker 1 (24:56):
Like, yeah, yeah, he's vaguely sinister. Now you know, he's
a man who survived a traumatizing ordeal, and you know,
who knows what that does to a person. So I
don't know if that telegraphs the twist too early. The
fact that he's barely in this movie until the last
ten minutes, I think is what telegraphs the twist of
his character.

Speaker 2 (25:16):
Also, I mean, what was it Saw two or three
that the hooded the hooded figure is is limping. I
don't know what we'll get to. We'll get to there
pretty soon.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
Yeah, we haven't really kind of I think talked about,
you know, the timeline of these movies, like the the
convoluted storyline of these movies leading up to Saw seven. Yeah,
we we got to a really messy spot by Saw seven.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (25:46):
You know, Doctor Gordon played by Carry Always had not
been in these movies until the first one, you know,
and I think he had not returned because of some
kind of legal disputes. I think, you know, there were
issues over over money that he thought he had earned
from the first movies profits. But he came back with
this one. Now a character we need to talk about.

(26:08):
And I'm interested to hear your take on this guy,
Mark Kauffman, he's got that dog in him. I don't
care what anybody says. He's I've by this time in
the movies, I've kind of come around to Mark Kaufman.
It is so awkward seeing him take on the role
of Jigsaw and Saw four and really Saw five, because

(26:31):
you know, this guy was just cast to be a
day player in one of the earlier Saw movies, and
then the writers scrambled for a twist for a new
person to take on the role of Jigsaw, and they thought, Hey,
this random no name detective from the first couple of movies.
You know what a twist that would be. And I

(26:52):
think this actor had to grow into the role, but
I think he did. I Saw six. I probably one
of my favorite sequences of these movies of Saw six,
to be sure, is his little uh terminator massacre in
the police precinct. Well, Saw six.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
So here's here's what I'm gonna say about about him,
and I guess I'll just get into I was gonna
talk about this later as we talked about the kills
and about the traps and such. But I like that
there's a clear divide between what Hoffman does and what
Jigsaw does. And Hoffman thinks he understands what Jigsaw is doing,
but he doesn't really understand why he's doing it. And

(27:35):
I really like that that is apparent in several of
these movies, but this one, I feel like, does it
more than any other because each of the traps are
not only for the most part inescapable. I mean like
that there's a way to get out of it, but it's.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
So well, usually somebody has to die right right.

Speaker 2 (27:55):
And it's and it's so nearly impossible that you know,
there's there's really no way that you can see our
character or our hero or whatever you want to call it,
getting out of the situation. And I like that because like,
that's not what John Kramer was about. I mean, he
was you had to sacrifice something to get out, or
you had to make a tough decision to get out

(28:17):
of a situation, but you could get out of it
reasonably without you.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
Know, you can get theoretically, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:27):
There was a strong lesson to be learned from it.
Jigsaw himself and John Kramer was more of a twisted
like demented teacher kind of you know, where he was
trying to teach you a lesson by putting you in
this situation, whereas Hoffman, I think, understands why people are
being put in there, that they're doing things that are
deplorable or they've done something bad, but he doesn't understand

(28:48):
what that core.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Well. I think what he wants to do is punish people.
And that's the way he got into the Jigsaw game
was taking out the man who killed his sister, you know,
the the guy from the opening of Saw five. And
I think that's why I've always had a soft spot
for Hoffman when other people, you know, think of him
as you know this, uh, this one to be Jigsaw.

(29:12):
He's got his own style and he's doing his own thing,
and he's a he represents vengeance, you know, he resents
he represents a lot of resentful things, and and that
doesn't make him as compelling as Jack Saw. I can't
talk about his his philosophy's worldview with the same kind

(29:34):
of level of layer. But he's a threatening movie villain.
I mean, he works as a movie villain. He's scary
as hell in this movie. He he has that scar
running up the side of his face, which I kind
of think they might have gone from Pans Labyrinth that
came out a year before and that had a villain
go through a similar transformation. By the way, it's a

(29:54):
great look. And again, he's his own character. I'm going
to talk about him as his own care or not
as this you know this want to be Jigsaw that
I think other people have always viewed him as well.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
He's one of the main focuses of this movie, which
I think I sort of enjoy. This movie is two
movies crammed into one ninety minute film. So it's a
little tough, and there's a couple of things that feel
like they fall to the wayside at certain points, and
there's a couple of things that maybe feel a little
bit rushed. But one of the whole points of this
movie is the fact that Jill, who tried to kill

(30:29):
Hoffman and saw six is now they're now sort of
trying to take the other one down.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
Right, Haffman wants to kill her. It's this cat and
mouse game. Honestly, that is the least intriguing storyline that
this movie has because it involves some of the worst actors,
namely the detectives who have been assigned to guard her.
I don't know what the hell is going on there.
I think, my god, I think it's an attempt at camp.

(30:59):
I cannot take I cannot take these as as serious performances.

Speaker 2 (31:04):
You know. Like again, I don't like to blame actors
and stuff, but like there's one scene where he's like
one of the detectives is supposed to be like angry,
and he's like, oh damn it, and it's like it
just the way that he delivers it. It's like, am
I watching a porno right now? Like this is not good.
This just isn't good, and it it I think, Okay,

(31:26):
there's already something more interesting going on in the movie, right, Like,
these characters aren't important enough to me at this point
in time that I care about their little cat and
mouse game more than I care about this really interesting
storyline that they set up, which, by the way, great
idea in my mind. So so at this point in
the movie, we've we've already seen this public live triangle

(31:47):
after the flashback, right, we see the flashback to open
the movie to the first Saw film, uh, and then
we get into this love triangle and public thing, and
then we see Jael was asking for immunity to out
Hoffman as Jigsaw, and she gets it from these detects,
which is definitely how the legal system works. I'm not
gonna qualm with that. I don't give a shit.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
This is the same this is the same production company
the produced Punisher war Zone. So let's assume that that
the legal department at lions Gate doesn't really know the
proper rules of immunity.

Speaker 2 (32:17):
But you know, I will not task that any Punisher
war Zone slander on this podcast anyways. So so so yeah,
So Jill asked for immunity, right, and we get that
whole scene, but then we get into the more interesting
storyline of this movie, which is that Sean Patrick Flannery
is is playing a fake Jigsaw trap. Yeah, yeah, which

(32:41):
I'm guessing that's kind of a playoff of the whole
fake nine to eleven Survivor that was pretty famous around.
I mean, are you.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Talking about that comedian who got outed as a.

Speaker 2 (32:54):
No, that that's more recent, right, that's more recent. There
was a woman who so, so the reason I think
it's connected as there was a woman and I again,
our research is not great for this, so I don't
recall her name at the moment, but she was not
She claimed to have been in one of the towers
when it went down. Not only did she claim that,
but she went to survivor groups. She told her story

(33:15):
to them. She would help them, like survivors would reach
out to her and be like, hey, you're so strong.
She had these apparent scars that were from her time
in the towers, and it turned out that she was
not there, and she was outed, and she disappeared from
the public leg I think she moved. I think she
was originally from like Spain or something. I think she
may have moved back there, but she was like a

(33:36):
big press figure for a while as this very strong
symbol of you know, of of strength and you know,
coming out of a situation as you know better than
you went into it somehow, you know what literally, what
doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And that's almost exactly
the template they use for the character in this movie.
Like he's writing a book about it, he's you know,

(33:58):
doing signings, he's going to these survivor meetings and you
know he's trying to help people within this thing that
he's doing. But he has a whole story, He has scars,
he has everything that you'd need to convince people that
you survived a Saw trap.

Speaker 1 (34:16):
No, it's a great idea, and I my theory is
that this was going to be the whole movie back
when Saw seven was just gonna be Saw seven, not
necessarily the final chapter, because it only became the final
chapter after after the box office returns from Saw six, right,

(34:37):
and this really has enough meat to be its own movie,
its own story. Really, every time they cut away from
this was a bit of a shame. I mean, Sean
Patrick Flannery is clearly the best actor outside of outside
of you know, Topin Bell, who doesn't have a lot
of screen time. Unfortunately, the little bit that we get,

(34:57):
you know, it's it's I'm glad it's not his last
appearance as the character. I will say that not the
best send off. But in Sean Patrick Flannery, I mean,
he's the only person who has something worth learning here.
I mean everything else is just uh, you know, punishment over.

(35:22):
I mean, yeah, it's it's fun to see skinheads, you know,
get their whole ship fucked up. But we don't know
those characters. I mean, they're just dropped in for the
sake of having a trap. You know. Sean Patrick Flannery's
the only He's the only character really as far as
like the function of a story goes, and I.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
Know everything that's done and why he's there, you know,
And that's that's the most important. That's one of the
most important reasons of why you like a Saw movie.
I mean the first one, of course, kind of reveals
it as you go, but that's I mean, it's intriguing
and then you start to think, well, why are they
here now, you know, And then in the other movies,
like that's something you learn about everybody, and it makes

(36:03):
it important to then either feel for that person or
root against that person when they're dying, as opposed to
just being like, well they're Nazis, which you know Chester
Bennington is in this movie that that scene comes right
after we we get so we get the fake saw
a survivor, and then we get the fake death of
Jill in one of the in one of the worst
three D effects in the movie. I think it's pretty

(36:25):
cool that they have like, you know, the gore flying
at the camera, but the puppet doesn't look too good.

Speaker 1 (36:29):
I think it is not cool. I cannot stress enough
how much I wish this was not three D. I mean,
I I lament three D in any of these movies,
And man, what a way that that things really come
full circle or things really work in waves, you know,

(36:49):
like thirty years after the three D craze of the
early eighties, now we have to do it again, even
though I mean, I yeah, don't we all agree that
those three D movies from the have aged worse because
they were three D? I mean, does anybody think The
Friday the thirteenth three D needed to be in three D?

Speaker 2 (37:10):
So this is gonna be really funny coming from me,
because I if three D make three D movies not
only give me a headache, but most of the time
they make me sick, so I can't watch them in
three D. That said, there is this, and I talked
about this in my Bloody or my Bloody Valentine video,
which that movie came out just the year before this one,
So you know, this is in the three D craze

(37:32):
right just after this movie, I think a year after
or two years after, we would get Texas Chainsaw three D.
This was we got what Piranha three D all around
sort of the same time.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
Now, I will say I respect infect I respect the
fact that back then they would do three D for
the third movies. It would it was Jaws three D,
it was Amity L three D. Now we were slapping
an on Willie nil. There was no rhyme or reason,
and I won't stand for that.

Speaker 2 (38:02):
Yeah, No, And you know what, I completely agree. It's
something that honestly like, so you know, we almost got
a Halloween three D in Halloween movies, which, honestly like,
I think that's a potential good topic of conversation one day,
but I I still would want to see that and

(38:23):
and and you know, like, here's here's my thing about
three D movies. I really enjoy watching them not in
three D. And I think the reason is because it's
just like it's such it's so clear that they're making
a movie, you know, and it doesn't it doesn't break
me out of it. But there's this there's this commercialization
about it that just like warms my heart a little bit, you.

Speaker 1 (38:43):
Know, warms your heart. The commercialization warms your heart. That's
the most thing.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Let me's tell you why, let me tell you why.
I love the spectrum of art, you know, Like I'm
not one of those people who's gonna tell you that,
you know, if you like a movie, if you prefer
a movie like Midnight Movie over Hereditary, Right, I'm not
the kind of person to be like, oh, well, you
don't know what art is or you don't think. And

(39:10):
I'm that way across everything. I mean, there's debates about
what is and what isn't art in film, in you know,
like actual you know, physical art, in professional wrestling, in
several things that are surrounding the world of you know,
the arts. And I don't I think policing that is
so dumb and so you know, occasionally I love the

(39:33):
idea of a movie. It's it's one of the reasons
I'm so upset that I don't like the Transformers movies.
Those are just popcorn movie. Like you just go into
those and have fun, and you know it's a movie
and you're you know, like it's sometimes it's difficult to
like stay emerged, you know, immersed into that world. But
there's like I almost appreciate that it's an option that

(39:54):
we have. I think that's what I'm missing today about
these kind of movies, is like I think anybody should
have an option of watching a three D, you know,
movie that doesn't look as good as the other ones,
but it's three D and it's got these cool effects.
And I think it's cool that we have movies that
are elevated, and I think it's cool that we have
movies that are you know, these like eighty schlock fests,
you know, like that that variety. I appreciate so much

(40:17):
that I love those kind of movies.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
I don't think that's I think that's a false choice. Personally,
I don't mind commercialization. I A lot of my favorite movies,
movies that inspire me are are really toy commercials or
or commercials for some brand of property. You know, because
the Sam Raimi Spider Man has a whole has a

(40:41):
whole scene dedicated to Macy Gray because she had she
had a Sony deal with had a deal with Sony,
a record deal with Sony. So that's not what I'm
talking about. But Macon Gray doesn't interfere with the creative process.
She doesn't interfere necessarily with the way they're gonna shoot
Spider Man or the way you know, the way they're
going to choreograph and block some crucial sequences. But that's

(41:05):
what three D does. Okay, that three D is the
reason the blood looks fake? Is shit? Why the gore
it is all wonky and kind of plastic. I mean,
there's another reason why it's hard for me to take
the violence seriously in this movie. It's not just because
of the cap approach. It's just because the gore has

(41:25):
no visceral quality to it. When I watched Chester Bennington
get his skin peeled off, I mean it's I mean,
it's it's gross in a kind of roadkill way, but
it's not. No, it's not visceral the way the gore
had been done in the previous few films. Now for

(41:46):
some people, that might make it more palatable. Again, it's
not gonna be as much, it's not gonna get under
your skin as much. But and now the three d's
like shoving my face in it. So and it's kind
of the worst of both worlds for me. If it
was just kind of lame, then I could say at
least it's in offensive. But that's not what the three

(42:08):
d's going for. Man, it really wants to immerse you
in the ugliest, nastiest parts of a Saw movie. So
that's where I bump up against it. And I'm just
I'm just anti three D in general. I mean, for
god's sakes, if your home media release doesn't include three
D glasses, then to me, this was just a jip
all along. It wasn't at all a part of the

(42:31):
real creative process, and nobody's taken the time to preserve
it in its rightful way. So and I'm not saying
I hate all of these old three D movies. I
just watched Jaws three D the other day. People consider
that a travesty. I had a good time with it.

Speaker 2 (42:47):
Well, you know, honestly, like, I totally understand what you're
saying there, and it does change the way that the
movie is is shot, It changes the way that certain
scenes are are you know, play out. I just I
don't know, there's something about those movies that just make
them feel like even though some of what makes a
three D movie fun sort of cheapens the movie, it

(43:09):
makes it feel bigger to me. And I think it's
just the time period, right like when we were when
these were coming around, like these movies always felt bigger.
They always felt like there was more pushed behind the
marketing for it because they wanted people to experience the
three D right And I feel like saw, especially at
this point, if you're gonna do something and maybe this
works against you in this movie, but it actually works

(43:30):
for me a little bit. Is like some of these
kills are are the most gruesome that we've seen, at
least in principle, are the most gruesome that we've seen,
and they're happening to characters that are increasingly less deserving.
So it's sort of helpful to me to be able
to see these scenes that are just kind of like
almost almost comical. They're not comical, but like they sort

(43:52):
of detach you a little bit from what's happening. I
almost appreciate that because I'm still witnessing it happen. But
it's not like, oh, the effects are so terrible, except
for this Jill scene, which is a which is a
dream sequence. I'll give them that. It's sort of I
appreciate that. I sort of feel disconnected. And by the way,
I'm you know, despite being anti three D as far

(44:13):
as somebody who will watch three D movies because they
literally make me sick, I'm very pro three D. Like
I will seek out movies that are in three D
to watch, you know, just on Blu Ray at home,
just to see the ways that they like coming up with,
you know, whether they going to make three D? What
are they what aren't they? Can I tell, you know,

(44:33):
Resident Evil Afterlife as an example, where it's like you
can tell every single scene that they are trying to
make three D. This is another example. But for me,
this is like one of the franchises that you do
that for you know, it just sort of helps make
it feel bigger, but also you know, it doesn't doesn't
directly put you in the face of the violence as
much as I think they intended to.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Well, it's a testament to how much of a cash
cow this franchise was still was even I would agree
with that, though it was, you know, starting to run
out of gas. But regardless of the three D, let's
let's talk about some more more of these traps. I think, uh,
I think we get some mixed results from the Sean

(45:18):
Patrick Flennery obstacle. Course, one of those traps doesn't even
feel like it blongs in a Saw movie or a
horror movie. Feels almost like some kind of a Indiana
Jones thing where he's he's trying to save his friend
from being hanged, and so he has to kind of
trapeez and parkour around all of these right, uh, all

(45:38):
of these banisters. And it was kind of a fun scene. Honestly,
it just kind of took me out of that Saw experience.
I and for a second, I for a second, I
almost thought he was gonna save his friend, Like I
really forgot what kind of movie I was watching. Of course,
he's not gonna save his friend.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
I'm not.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
We're not here to watch somebody get saved. Even when
people do get saved, they don't get saved. One of
my favorite parts of Jos three is how they save
this guy from a terrible death being drowned in pig guts,
only for the next scene for him to get shot
in the face with a shotgun.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
I you know, I I I think it plays up.
I think every especially during this sequence, like it seems
like everything's just set up to torture this guy. And
I like how each one of them he gets so close,
you know, and he gets he gets so close to
saving his friend, or to saving his wife, or to

(46:34):
saving somebody, and he just can't do it. And then
yea dude, the wife is just like that that honestly.
So it's like kind of one of my favorite things
like about the movie and about the Saw movies. Like
it's one of my favorite track. I think it's very intricate,

(46:55):
but I like the story significance of it. I like
I like how it plays out, but it just breaks
your heart.

Speaker 1 (47:02):
It's the most suspensibl It's the most suspenseful thing this
movie has to offer. It's still something that has stuck
with me ever since I first watched it. Watched it,
I was really not prepared for how how violated I
was gonna feel by that whole sequence. But my question

(47:23):
is who's doing this trap? Is this a Jigsaw legacy
trap or is this Hoffman's conception?

Speaker 2 (47:31):
My understanding is that So maybe I'm wrong, and Saw fans,
I'm sure will be quick to tell me that I'm wrong.
But I see this more from like maybe it almost
feels like it was started as a John Kramer Jigsaw
trap but not finished as one, because we know Jigsaw

(47:54):
knows of this guy, right, like they meet that's the hell.

Speaker 1 (47:58):
And Tobin bell one scene, his one three minute scene in.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
This yeah, where he's Steve Buscemi's his way in there.
But uh, everything about it feels more Hoffman, right, like
innocent life. Uh that's going to be lost pretty much
impossible to do them, I mean, like it's possible, but

(48:23):
it's not, especially like the one that got me was
the sound one, right, like decent idea right, you know, uh,
pretty cool looking trap, but it's like everything about it
is out of the control of the person that's doing it.
And maybe that's the point, but like it's disgusting and

(48:46):
it hurts to watch, like you can almost feel it,
and it hurts and you're watching it, and like, how
is he supposed to succeed at this? He has no
control over whether or not she makes noise or doesn't.
He's just going to kill his friend while trying to
save her, or kill this woman while trying to save her,
right And it's like it feels so much more on

(49:09):
the Hoffman side of things, where it's like, you can
get out of this, but you're not gonna you know,
like you're not gonna it's not gonna happen. So I
don't know, it's hard to say because the movie doesn't
spell it out for you, but I sort of saw
this as like John Kramer is aware that this guy's

(49:30):
doing this stuff, so he starts this trap and maybe
Hoffman finishes it, because there are things about it that
are very Jigsaw, but the core of it is what
Hoffman's done over the last few movies, especially in this
one so far.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Well, we have to remember why people were coming to
see the Saw movies, what they wanted, what they expected,
and we had we had grown out of the Jigsaw era,
I mean, the John Kramer era of Jigsaw. You know,
there's really no going back after you've escalated it so drastically.

(50:05):
It's like the Halloween franchise, you know, after Halloween, after
the original Halloween two. They all they started trying to
compete with the the Ad Jason's of the world, the
Freddy Krueger's of the world. There's no really going back
to that, you know. Every time they say they're going
to go back to the original tone of Halloween John
Carpenter's Halloween. I mean they try in some ways, but

(50:28):
they're never gonna like tame it down, you know, to
really honor the spirit of that original movie.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, and people don't like it, Like I think they
don't want that at all. The David Gordon Green movies
is as flawed as they are in certain parts, like
that speaks to the core of what the first Halloween
movie was all about. And people hated how that ended.
You know, the ending of Halloween ends is exactly what
the first movie was trying to tell you. And people

(50:56):
were like, no, I want to see Michael Meyer, which
I get. I'm a hot I you know, Halloween is
my second favorite film franchise, but saw is up there
for me to be if I'm being honest with you,
because I think no matter what people say about these
and you see it on letterbox, like as you go
through the series, like there are ups and downs, peaks
and valleys, but like I would consider it one of

(51:17):
the most consistent. Like the first movie I think is
I hold that on a pedestal. I know people will
prefer I think people either prefer that or Saw two
or three.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
I prefer Saw too. That's the one I put on
a pedestal. Saw one is is damn good. It's a
damn good horror movie and it uh it deserves credit
for starting the Mammoth franchise that that it did. But
you know, I like the Saw movies in the way
that I like a TV show. You know, I almost

(51:48):
don't like. I don't like I love The Office, and
there are episodes I prefer to the other others my favorites,
but it's still like I love it collectively as The Office,
you know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (51:59):
Exactly see what I'm saying about soft right, It's like
I feel like quality wise, like I don't think anything
dips too far until you get to Jigsaw. In my mind,
I don't think anything goes way too far off base.
I think this movie is probably the closest to doing that.
But like all of them, I would put within you know,
similar except for the first, the first one to me

(52:20):
was just such an experience seeing it for the first time,
just seeing the twist and experiencing it. And by the way,
something that somebody that I think deserves an incredible amount
of credit is Charlie Klauser or Charlie Closer, the composer
for this. We talked a little bit about him, like.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Hell year ago. Yeah, hello, Zepp is one of my favorite, oh,
musical themes in cinema, in cinema, not I was gonna
say in horror movies. No, that that that doesn't really
cover it. In fact, I you know how people say
that like the original cut of Halloween wasn't scary, It
was only scary after John Carpenter added the score, So really,
you know, the score here kind of makes a break.

(52:57):
Sit I put, I put Charlie's contributions right on that level,
right on that level it is.

Speaker 2 (53:04):
It is one of the best like main themes of
a of a movie franchise ever in my mind. Uh
in it in it still to this day when I
hear that song, especially when it drops into the you know,
the the real the real meat of the song. Yeah,
uh that it gets me, like it gives me chills
when I hear it. It's it's perfect and it's done

(53:28):
and it's used, and I want to give you know,
the editing team, and I want to give you know,
the sound mixing. I want to give everybody credit because
it's often in these movies, even the ones that are
a little bit lower on the totem pole for me,
executed really well and use effectively throughout those scenes. Even
in this one.

Speaker 1 (53:44):
Here's how you know it's a great score. It elevates
the materials absolutely. Some of the twists in these movies
are fucking ridiculous, But when that music starts playing, I
feel like I'm watching like the most rebroll fucking movie.
I feel like I'm watching like, oh yeah, a masterpiece

(54:05):
because because the music elevates it so much, and I
feel like, yeah, they really have five D their five
D chest, their their way to the finish line here.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:15):
Uh. And the same goes for for Saw three D.
You know, when we get our inevitable twist of what
exactly doctor Gordon's role in the story is, Yeah, yep,
people say they saw coming from a mile away, and uh,
I think we said it's telegraphed too early or too much,

(54:36):
but I don't know, Man, when that when that score
kicks in and when he throws the little saw towards
the camera.

Speaker 2 (54:42):
Man, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
I'm getting swept up in all of it.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Okay, let me so. So I want to do an aside,
uh in a moment, because I think it's relevant to
what we're talking about. But that scene is shipped on
by detractors of this movie where he throws the saw
at the camera and I know the three D effect.
Whatever you want to say about it, I don't care.
I think it's perfect. I love it so much. The
score is perfect, and and the way that they go

(55:08):
into slow mo and the soft flies at the camera.
There's just something about it that I absolutely love. It's
one of my favorite endings in a little bit like
in the franchise, I think since maybe since Saw three,
it's one of my It's one of the better endings
in my mind.

Speaker 1 (55:26):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
And it's it plays out so well, and I want
to I want to bring this up because I think
it's relevant to and it speaks to the quality of
the movies and especially the quality of the score and
how it plays into the story of each movie. Have
you ever seen the movie The Collector? No Okay, So
the movie The Collector has some pretty rough scenes to
get through for people who don't like Gore, or who

(55:50):
don't like not so much Gore, but like people being
hurt and tortureard. And my wife saw that before she
saw any Okay. Now, I tried to talk her into
watching the Saw movies and she just knew them as
torture porn. She didn't want to watch them. She was

(56:11):
she saw I think one scene before and was just
totally turned off, didn't want to watch it. And I said,
let's watch the first one and then anytime you don't
want to watch another one afterwards, we'll cut it off
at that movie. If if it's the first one, that's
all we'll watch. If it's the second one, then we'll
just watch those two and we'll just watch until you
don't want to watch them anymore. And we got through

(56:32):
those movies in two days, all of them up to
the Business was before Jigsaw came out, but but we
got through the entire franchise. And that speaks to the
quality of these movies in my mind. Because somebody who
is like she'll close her eyes at like medical TV
shows because it's too much. But she watched the entire

(56:53):
Saw franchise and enjoyed them and was excited for the
next one. It was asking questions and was engaged. And
I think if if you put somebody in front of
these movies, especially who doesn't know any of the story,
beats watching this franchise, including this movie. By the way,
because this movie wraps up something that's set up in
the first Saw film and is hinted at in the
second Saw film. It wraps it up in this movie,

(57:16):
and it sort of takes every storyline that we've been
seeing throughout and finishes them off in a way. It
works as a final chapter. If you weren't to do
it again, I think it could have been a little
more grand. But it's a testament to how good the
score works, for the for the story, how well they
were able to keep this story up despite some questionable things.

(57:39):
You know, it wasn't perfect, but.

Speaker 1 (57:42):
I'm always a little well done. There are people out
there who really pride themselves and you know, being a
ficionados of trash cinema, you know these movies, yeah, slasher movies,
exploitation movies. I'm thinking people like Jay from Red Letter.

Speaker 6 (58:01):
Right, Yeah, and Jay shits on the Saw movies, and
I'm like really thinking about it, like thinking about all
of the movies that are the pillars of the taste
of people like Jay Ballman, who's.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
A guy I like a lot, absolutely and I kind
of aspired to be him in a lot of ways.
But I'm really thinking about it. I'm thinking about how
much more thought actually goes into making a Saw movie,
just when you look at the plot beats, just when
you look at the characters, the mysteries. I was like,
that was the moment he clicked for me. How little
credit these movies get, Like how much the torture porn

(58:37):
label really overshadows and any of the other things. Like
I think Saw fans are just as excited about, you
know what the final twist is going to be, you know,
about who these characters are, because often there's somebody who
is not who they say they are. And it kind

(58:57):
of like how the screen movies are rewatchable because you to,
you know, go back and see the clues to who
Jigsaw isis Coast Faces, right, Yeah, in this case, it's
a very similar thing. Even when the twist isn't executed perfectly,
and it rarely is perfect, not perfect in the first
song movie, there's still enough forethought that makes it a
really rewarding experience of being a Saw fan. And I

(59:20):
think that's what keeps people coming back to these movies.
You know, if you just if you're just here for
the traps, you can watch the the clips of that
on YouTube.

Speaker 2 (59:29):
Yeah, And I think, uh, I think what we can
do here is we can we can sort of just
take us We can take people through a pretty expedited
ending of this movie. And so, you know, our our
our guy who fakes the Saw traps ends up having
to prove himself and he has a series of traps
that he has to go through including you know, at
one point, yeah, saving his friend, he has to pull

(59:51):
his teeth out for combination code that's on his teeth
for one of them, so he has to yank him out.
He has to pull a out of a out of
a woman's throat. It's in her stomach, but it's attached
to a fish hook, so it is clawing its way
through her as he pulls it out. But every time
she makes a sound, these poles move towards her neck

(01:00:13):
to stab her. And and then we get his final test,
which is the Saw trap he claims to have survived.
Now he claims that when he was put in a
saw trap, that he was forced to stab his pectoral
muscles with two hooks and then use his own weight

(01:00:35):
to pull himself up to safety. The twist is, though,
for the trap, that if he has to do this
to save his wife, his innocent wife who's done nothing
wrong but support her husband. Now she is chained up
throughout this whole thing. You can see her and every
time I believe every time he fails, she gets pulled down.

(01:00:56):
But I mean it could just be the passage of time,
because I do that in these movies.

Speaker 1 (01:01:01):
Yeah, I think it's it's either a ticking clock or yeah,
every time he fails. But yeah, she's getting pulled into this,
into this furnace.

Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
That's the kind of cool part is that you don't
really know that it's kind of a furnace. Yet She's
on this metal platform, like, and there's this chain and
it's in the ground. And every time, every time we
show her again, whether he fails or whether it's a
passage of time, she's getting yanked closer to the ground
to where she's like basically she's kneeling at this point
as he's trying to pull himself up and she's really

(01:01:35):
you know, cheering him on, and he's he's doing his best,
but in the end he fails. His pectoral muscles tear
and he falls to the ground, and almost as soon
as he does, this metal grate like opens up under
her and swallows her into this incinerator where she is
burned to death. And that scene is very difficult to

(01:01:58):
watch because she did not deserve it, and in a
way you think he deserved it, but did he like
he deserves to be shamed for for you know, faking
being in a saw trap. And sure maybe you know
in the context of the film and that morality.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Sure, I mean that's like saying, uh, you know, a
fake nine to eleven survivor deserves to be in one
of the towers in.

Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Nine to eleven. Yeah, like we're going to put you
in a tower and hit it with a plane. Like
it's just like and and he was. He's a little
different from her because he he was pushing it and
milking it for money, but he was also like he
did he wasn't he wasn't like looking down on real survivors. Yeah,

(01:02:40):
like I was trying to help them.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
He's an interesting character because he does not reek of
kind of of irredeemable. Uh right, you know, yeah, even
though I mean what he's what he's doing is terrible
and it is belittling real survivors, and he's exploiting their tragedies,
so you can't condone it. But you know, he actually

(01:03:06):
seems like a human being. John Patrick Flannery, I've heard
he is not a pleasant man to work with, and
he is making some questionable career choices, making some Christian propaganda.
But dude's a good actor. We've known he's a good
actor ever since The Boondock Saints, and he really delivers.

(01:03:28):
He delivers on the pathos here. And that's kind of
the thing. When it's just Chester Bennington pretending to play
a skinhead. You can watch you know, lens get torn off,
skin get peeled off, people get you know, run over
and their jaws ripped off. You can watch any of that.
But just the simple feeling of watching a real human

(01:03:50):
being go through this, even when you know that human
being is deeply flawed. Yeah, especially when their wife is involved,
like their innocent partner is involved. I mean, that's what
puts it at the top for sure, and that that
actress is really selling it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
I think she's she's pretty good. I like pretty good.

Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
And I think, you know, we're both husbands here, and
I think we can probably relate to the shape to
the shame we would feel like failing to save our wives.

Speaker 2 (01:04:16):
Oh my god, and like but having to watch it too,
you know, it's like, yeah, it's just.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
It's terrible in a way. It is. It is the
cruelest trap or experience that I think this this franchise
has put somebody through. I think you could make the
argument for that psychologically.

Speaker 2 (01:04:37):
Yeah, I think it's this one and then maybe the
the Ice Block Trap with Donnie Wahlberg. I think that
one's pretty rough too, you know, instant though, No, it is,
You're right like that, It's it's on a similar level,
but it's not near what that Like this one is like,
especially this viewing, like watching it again now, I feel

(01:05:01):
like the older I get, the worst that scene gets.
Like as a teenager, I was like, oh, like that
kind of sucks, and then I watched it again a
couple of years later, It's like, Nope, don't like that
about that, And now I'm like, I don't even want
to watch it anymore. Like, it's just it's just it's rough.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
And the crazy thing is that's really the notes that well,
that storyline ends there, and the movie still has a
few other things to wrap up. But that, to me
is kind of like the closing note of this original
run of Saw movies. It ends on the most despicable notes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:37):
I so I don't necessarily see it that way, per se,
I almost see this as like the last stand for Hoffman, right, like,
because immediately after we get this, Hoffman sets it up
to where you know, he's gonna he's gonna blow up
all of the evidence and he's gonna get away with it,
right and as he is a think he's gotten away.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
He's killed Jill with he's killed everybody. He's killed everybody slash. Yeah,
worse than a slasher, I mean the Terminator. That's that's
pretty much well comes to mind.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
He was like the Terminator in the original movie.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Right, and we finally see the bear trap go off,
and it, yeah, it goes off on Jill, who's been
a pretty useless character. So that one is I mean,
I don't like, I don't really like violence against women,
you know, I hope that doesn't sound like virtue signaling.
It's just a very unpleasant thing for me to to see.

Speaker 2 (01:06:38):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:39):
Yeah, but in the context of it, I mean, she
is no innocent either, She's no angel, and she's a
pretty useless character. So that's that, that is what it is.
But yeah, then he he thinks he's one, but we know,
we know there's something up Jigsaw. Well, he did let
his wife die, but he let the man who kills

(01:07:01):
his wife get away at it?

Speaker 2 (01:07:04):
No, and yeah, he uh he is he he gets
out and you see the ex cool guy doesn't look
at the explosion as he walks away, and you think,
a normal movie fan, maybe you're watching this for the
first time, you've never seen another Saw movie, You're like, Okay,
he's gonna get away with this. Uh. And then a
bunch of pig masks come out and take him down,
and one of them, you know, stabs a seerum into

(01:07:26):
his neck, and before he passes out, it is revealed
to be doctor Gordon. Carry out was from the first movie.
And we get this whole sort of I mean very
Saw like you know sequence where all is revealed. We
go back in time to different Saw traps, and different things,
and it's revealed that basically, like anything that you saw

(01:07:46):
that was medical came from Doctor Gordon, So, you know,
stuff being sewn into somebody, you know, things like that,
that's all been Doctor Gordon since the first movie. And uh,
you know, we doctor Hoffin passes out. He wakes up

(01:08:07):
in the spot of the original Saw Trap where the
saw is on the ground, and you know, he's got
a you know, Hoffman reaches for it, but to no avail.
It's picked up by Doctor Gordon and thrown in what
I think is one of the better endings of the franchise,
and uh, he gives the same line that Jigsaw gives
in the first movie, game over over and closes him in, which, man,

(01:08:32):
I just want to say, I understand why some people
might feel underwhelmed by this movie as a whole, and
the fact that it's supposed to be a final chapter.
I understand where people could feel almost kind of cheated,
especially since, you know, especially now knowing that it was
supposed to be a two parter and that you know,
you have basically two movies in one ninety minute Saw Finale.

(01:08:55):
There is a sense a part of me that feels
kind of cheated, right, But that ending for me, the
ending of the movie, the very end, is pretty much
exactly what I would have wanted from a final chapter
of these characters that we've been with or at least
seen since the first movie. I don't know what say you,

(01:09:17):
Is this a complaint for you like it is with
the rest of the audience.

Speaker 1 (01:09:20):
Well, the movie as a whole is definitely underwhelming as
a final chapter for what you know, for a franchise
that postures itself like a like an epic saga. I mean,
it's a ninety minute hodgepodge of two different movies, So
I mean that's gonna be inevitable. I wish we could
have gotten more with doctor Gordon, I really do. That's

(01:09:44):
his him missing an action for so much of the
movie is the biggest missed opportunity. Yeah, and who knows.
I mean, I imagine just because they I mean they
were paying for three D they couldn't pay carry elways
for more than three days to be on set. But
I hear what you're saying about that actual final ending.

(01:10:06):
I mean, I think you could have put that ending
on almost any of these movies and gotten the same
the same result. It's a. It's a really solid ending
to a pretty uneven movie, and it's no longer the ending,
although correct me if I'm wrong, but we haven't had
a movie since that's actually taken place after Saw seven,

(01:10:28):
like after the timeline of Saw seven, Bunch.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
I don't know. So when I so, I saw Jigsaw
and that turned me off a Saw completely. So when
I saw infamously, I I've not seen a lot of
movies that have come out over the last few years.
So I didn't see Spiral, uh, and I didn't see
Saw ten, So you didn't see ten?

Speaker 1 (01:10:51):
Is worth sing?

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
It's I've heard it was very much a return to
form I've heard. I've heard some people say best since
Saw too.

Speaker 1 (01:10:59):
I don't agree with that. It's not better than Saw
Sex in my opinion, but it's it's an upper tier
Saw movie. It was so weird seeing It's so weird
seeing the establishment, the Hollywood establishment really embraced Saw ten
and the critics embraced it, like it got a ninety
percent on ron Tomatoes or something crazy like that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
This movie got a nine.

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
Is Saw ten ten times better than Saw seven? It's not.
It's I don't really know how to how to do
a formula here. I mean, the there's a lot of
variables to what makes a Saw movie good. This movie
doesn't hit on all of them, but it hits on
enough of them. I mean, I'll watch it, it's included in

(01:11:44):
the marathons, and I'll always remember some of the scars
that it gave me on my first viewing. And that's
probably the reason I actually can't return to the movie
that often. I mean, it is a really ugly movie
in some respects, but hey, what am I complaining for?
That's that's a Saw movie, and it culminates the story

(01:12:07):
of Jigsaw. And none of the promises of sau seven
have been broken, which is interesting, Like they haven't brought
back any of these characters, they haven't reconned anything. This
franchise has shown so much restraint in that regard. Like Jason,
they'll dig him up, they'll bring him back to life,
you know, they'll they'll bring back Freddy. They didn't bring

(01:12:31):
Jigsaw back to life. They've gone through painstaking efforts to
not do that or to not reckon anything of the franchise,
And to me, that's always been something that's clearly commendable
about the series of movies.

Speaker 2 (01:12:46):
Oh, I agree. I mean, how easy would it have
been for them to just be like, well, John Kramer's
not really dead. He was misdiagnosed and he was just
sick with something else, and when you watched him die,
he didn't really die. They could have done it, and
you know, maybe some fans wouldn't have been upset, but
I like that they've stuck with what they have set up,
and not only in movies that have come out afterwards.

(01:13:09):
Like I even appreciated that about the movie Jigsaw. I
didn't appreciate much about it, but I appreciated that there's
no scene that's like, somehow Jigsaw has returned, you know,
and uh, my favorite franchise of all time has a
moment like that. Of course, Halloween has moments where you know,

(01:13:31):
there's no way he could have survived. And you know,
I just appreciate a franchise that's like, look, if we're
gonna make another movie, we're gonna be creative about it.
And you know, that's had mixed results, especially since the
Final chapter, but even including the final chapter, it's had
mixed results over the years. But for me, like you know,

(01:13:53):
pretty much like you said earlier, I think the original
run of these movies has been great. Jigsaw turned me
down from the France for a little while, but I
always plan to go back and see Spiral. I always
planned to see Saw ten after I found out it
was coming out, and Saw eleven is coming at this point,
and we're getting the same director. He's coming back again,

(01:14:15):
so this will be interesting to see how Saw continues
to age. But for now, I mean the fact that
there's really only one movie and I haven't seen. Granted
I haven't seen the two recent ones, but there's only
one movie in the entire franchise that I can say
I don't like. That's a pretty successful run in my mind,
and I think that leaves us with nothing left to
discuss besides our final verdicts. Correct.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
Yeah, And I will say, if Chigsaw is the worst
movie in your franchise, you've had a pretty good franchise.
Oh yeah, I mean pretty spilt.

Speaker 2 (01:14:44):
Some horror movies, man, Like, some horror franchises go way
out of their way to be different or to be crazy,
and they in doing so make an awful movie, or
at least the movie that you can't appreciate for the
same reasons that you appreciate the other ones. Like you know,
I I brought Halloween Resurrection to this channel, but I
don't appreciate it as a Halloween film, you know. I

(01:15:05):
appreciate it as like a palate cleanser, you know, funny
to laugh at type of movie. So yeah, I mean this,
this franchise doesn't have that, which is I think a
testament to how well you know, how much care has
been put into it, which is really surprising considering the
fact that the original director has not come back to
a movie, which is also kind of rare in a franchise.

(01:15:29):
You know, John Carpenter never returned to Halloween, but.

Speaker 1 (01:15:32):
It's kind of not that rare when you when you
think about John Carpenter. Sehn S. Cunningham never directed another
Friday movie. Wes Craven did return for one movie, and
I think that's the exception that proves the role. He
returned to make a Nightmare in Elm Street movie, but
he he technically didn't because he stepped outside the world

(01:15:53):
of a Nightmare in Elm Street, well.

Speaker 2 (01:15:56):
In a fantastic movie.

Speaker 1 (01:15:57):
In a fantastic movie, but he he he felt so
uncomfortable returning to that franchise that he had to kind
of like create some almost creative loophole for himself. But yeah,
it's it's I mean, you know, Saw launched James Wand's career.
He's doing very well for himself. I'm sure he does
not feel the need to come back, you know. I

(01:16:18):
guess if lly, if Aquaman two had flopped hard, maybe
he would have come back.

Speaker 2 (01:16:23):
I don't know, he doesn't, you know, he's he doesn't
strike me as a guy that looks back at all,
you know, like I could see somebody like I don't know,
I can't even see somebody like a John Carpenter, you know,
eventually taking some time to look back and returning to
a franchise after a while. Shawnes Cunningham even, I mean

(01:16:44):
there are directors who have directed within a franchise and
then you know, returned later. I mean Rick Rosenfald did
the second Halloween and then he did Resurrection. There are examples,
There are examples.

Speaker 1 (01:16:55):
I think the trend tends to be like when you
have a director who who proofs themselves in one movie,
I mean, very often they look at that movie as
a stepping stone, no matter how fun we are of that.
That's what it usually represents to them. Like John Carpenter,
I don't think has any warm feelings towards the Halloween franchise,

(01:17:16):
not not.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
Enough to I think sometimes he has very cold feelings
against Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:17:20):
Yeah, I think it depends on if he's having a
bad day or not. But I mean for a long
time he was ambivalent at best. Yeah, and James want,
I mean, we know that he's not happy with the
direction this franchise took. He and Leewinal have been vocal
about that, and Leewin all before he left Twitter, he
said something so funny. First he said that he's as

(01:17:41):
involved in the Saw films now as Jimmy Carter is
in national politics, you know, BEDD and Jimmy Carter. And
then he said for a while he had so checked
out of these movies that he like. When people would
ask him what he thought about Mark Hoffman, he would
have no idea what they were talking about. For a

(01:18:02):
long time, he just had no idea. So they both.

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
Find that sad. I find that really sad with especially
with the franchise like this. You know, I understand like
John Carpenter not giving you know, and like I've I
heard a story about about Jamie Lee Curtis kind of
being cold towards Danielle Harris at the Halloween Ends premiere
about h you know, daniel Harris being like, oh, I
played your daughter in the Halloween movie and she was like, oh,

(01:18:27):
I didn't see those.

Speaker 1 (01:18:28):
That was just like a lack of basic well.

Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
And she was being a dick for no reason. But
there's there's an understanding that I hold for like somebody
like John Carpenter, maybe not for his bitterness, but for
you know, just not really like having to disc either
having to disconnect yourself from them because you're not involved
in your onto bigger and better things, or just not
caring because you're in bigger and better things. You know,
It's like it's not my problem anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:18:57):
But I don't begrudge I get it anybody from just
moving on from a project. I mean it. I honestly
wish some people had the freedom to do that. I
think a lot of times when somebody's stuck around in
a franchise, very often it's because well, that's you know,
that's the only stable line of work that they have
found is sticking around for these movies. I want people

(01:19:19):
to have the freedom to go and venture off to
new things. But if they have more passion for the project,
if they really have more stories they want to tell
on franchise, then yeah, they can come back. They're always
welcome to come back. Yeah, I think I think James
Wand and Leewanell are doing very well for themselves. I'm
very excited, especially for Lee one Nell, to see what

(01:19:39):
he does next. And what he does next I hope
is not Saw twelve personally. I think I think he
has a couple of things on the horizon that are
a bit more.

Speaker 6 (01:19:50):
Entrgument for me.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
He might be attached to the to the new Wolfman
reboot that's coming.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
Up, is he is? And by the way, guess what
Shot Factory is releasing on four K Pretty No, please
don't tell me. I don't even need to tell you, son,
you already.

Speaker 2 (01:20:05):
Know, son of a bitch.

Speaker 1 (01:20:07):
Well, validation, folks, that's what we call validation.

Speaker 2 (01:20:12):
Well, I'm happy for you. And you know, Leewan l
like you said, you know, he's got a really impressive
resume as a director. Now, I think Upgrade is fantastic.
I think The Invisible Man is fantastic. And so yeah,
he's he's doing fine. He's gonna keep doing fine. I'm
glad he's gotten the opportunity to really prove himself. And
by the way, I think Insidious Chapter three, which he

(01:20:33):
also directed, is underrated. It's been on this channel before. Yeah,
that's right, and so uh yeah, I think I think
that's a lot of fun. But uh yeah, I think
uh I think you want to get to our final
verdicts on this.

Speaker 1 (01:20:45):
One, Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think. Gosh, we
have covered our whole thoughts about the Soft franchise. We
have many thoughts, and I could talk about these movies
for for a long time, and there's a couple of
different ways to judge a movie like Sauce seven. If
I were to look at it as as a conclusion
to a series of films that I really adore, you know,

(01:21:09):
it doesn't really cut it for a lot of the
reasons we've laid out. I mean, it was it was
a rush production, it was a troubled production creatively, and
I think three D interfered with the direction, and I
just think it dropped the ball on a number of things.
That makes a great Saw movie. But where it doesn't
drop the ball, you have a pretty great set of

(01:21:33):
traps for a pretty compelling hero's journey, even if that
ends in the most tragic way. You have prety fitting
conclusion to a couple of storylines. It was great to
see Kerry always come back. I hope he comes back
again for future Saw films, however, that would work. Mark Hoffen,
I think gets his just due and he's a character

(01:21:54):
that I think deserved a conclusion of his own, and
I think he got one. And Yeah, this movie delivers
on just enough to say, yeah, it's a worthy Saw film.
I'm glad it's not the last Saw film. I'm glad
now other movies have come and taken that burden off
of its shoulders. Now can just be another another movie

(01:22:14):
in the Saw franchise. And I think on those grounds
it's worthy. People think it's the worst, it's not the worst,
so I can definitively say it's not that bad.

Speaker 2 (01:22:25):
Perfect Happy, happy to hear you say it. Yeah, I
think I'd like what you said there about kind of
putting it up and also holding it on its own
and kind of where it is now in the history
of the Saw franchise. I would agree certainly with what
you said about this movie not really being a fitting

(01:22:48):
film in for a conclusion. What I do think though,
that it does almost to perfection, is being a fitting
end to the story, and I think for me, I'm
really glad that that outweighs it for me. I know
people saw it coming, I know what they're gonna say,
and I know, you know, I Don'm not really worried
about that, because it's my opinion. I think there's a

(01:23:11):
lot of really good things about this movie. There's a
lot of things about this movie that make it tough
to watch. And I didn't really get into as many
negatives in this as I as I you know, intended to,
because you know, I do have a lot of affection
for this but ultimately, like there are scenes that the
acting is almost laughably bad, there are times where lines

(01:23:32):
of dialogue are laughably bad, and there are times where,
you know, aside from the three D which I've said,
you know, kind of disconnects me, but in a fun way,
there are parts of this movie where I was completely
disconnected and felt like I was watching a much of production,
much less becoming of a franchise like this. That being said,

(01:23:54):
that's not the whole movie, and so I'm happy to
say that I think, with with certain that are perfect
about this movie. It does outweigh a lot of the bad.
I would say this movie has a two point three.
I can't be as enthusiastic about this one as I
would some other movies we've discussed, so I'm gonna give

(01:24:16):
it a not that bad as well. I want to
go actually good. It's definitely on the high end of
the not that bad spectrum for me, but ultimately my
rating would be the same if this was still the conclusion.
But I have a little bit more love for it
now that you know it doesn't have to be. It

(01:24:37):
doesn't have that burden like you said. I think that
was a really good way of putting it. And yeah,
here we are. I think I think not that bad
as perfect and I think we agree on this bed.

Speaker 1 (01:24:46):
This is solid not that bad if ever I've seen one.

Speaker 2 (01:24:49):
It's time for us to do our best to horror
ourselves out. So, folks, thank you for watching our discussion
about Saw three D, Slash Saw seven, Slash, Saw the
Final Chapter, Slash, Saw three D, The Final Chapter, Slash
Saw the Final Chapter three D. It was definitely a
fun discussion for me. Uh and I always like talking
about a franchise like saw, you know, one that means

(01:25:12):
a lot to me, and I hope we were able
to present a good defense for it. If you did
enjoy the video, there are ways that you can support us,
and there are free ways you can support us. Before
I tell you what those are, I would like my
co host to tell you about how you can support
us financially, Gabe, how can they give us their many.

Speaker 1 (01:25:33):
With the same way that you can give any of
your favorite creators money your.

Speaker 2 (01:25:38):
He's got one of these?

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, P to the A, to the T,
to the R, to the E, to the O to
the N. Patreon. Go look up a Patreon, look up
all the goodies that we offer. We offer not only
exclusive episodes, but exclusive clips taken from public episodes that
we have saved just for y'all those who deem usworthy

(01:26:02):
enough for your support, which we are always grateful for.
So yeah, go on over to our Patreon check out
all the exclusive benefits that we offer. You know, exclusive episodes,
exclusive clips, exclusive merch, the works. And you know, if
you can't support us that way, if you still want
to support the channel, just like and subscribe, share the

(01:26:23):
video with your friends. You know, if you're a horror Hound,
share it with people that you think could benefit from hearing,
you know, defenses of all these black sheet movies and
get that conversation started.

Speaker 2 (01:26:38):
Yeah, and luckily, we have one convenient location for you
to find all of these links and more, and it's
that badmedia dot Com. Now, on our previous episodes we
have talked about not that badpod dot Com. That website
will still take you to that badmedia dot Com. It'll
take you to the not that Bad section, so that
link is still usable for those that did ask the question. However,

(01:27:01):
that badmedia dot Com is the place to go for
all of that information. You can find links to our YouTube,
to everywhere we post podcast version. You can find links
to our Patreon. You can find a form to contact
us if you'd like to tell us something and you
don't want to put it in the comments, If you
just want to send us a hey email, you can
do it on our website. You can also read about

(01:27:23):
how the show got started and all of the facts
and information that we decided we wanted to put on
the internet. So that's the place to go if you
want everything all encompassing for that Bad Media and we
would appreciate it greatly, But, like Gabe said, liking, subscribing, sharing, commenting,
these are all ways that you can help this channel

(01:27:43):
and this brand grow and it would mean the world
to us. So thank you for your support so far,
and thank you for any support in the future. I
think that's enough whorring for now. Gabe, would you like
to take us out?

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
My friend? Yeah? Well, as Conner said, I am Gabe
and I am and this is a bad media and
we are signing out. Yeah,

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Saw 3D - Game Over for the Saw Movies

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Saw 3D - Game Over for the Saw Movies