September 19, 2023 • 33 mins
Defensiveness is a common reaction to criticism, where individuals become protective and guarded, perceiving a threat to their self-esteem or sense of identity. It is a natural response when feeling attacked, but if it becomes a habitual pattern, it can damage relationships and hinder personal growth.
In this episode, Pye and Dr. Glen define defensiveness and discuss how to identify and change this behavior in relationships.
In this episode, Pye and Dr. Glen define defensiveness and discuss how to identify and change this behavior in relationships.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
How do you stop being defensive inyour relationships? That's our topic for today.
That's a good one that requires selfawareness and introspection and brutal honesty.
That is an area of life thatyou have progressed beyond me brutal honesty.
I would say, I'm a veryhonest and authentic person, but you got
(00:21):
me there. But I love thistopic. Though there's so much around like
being defensive and relationships. We're goingto break this down are like ten steps.
We're gonna go through defined to defensiveness. What is defensive behavior because that's
kind of like stuff that we overlooka lot. And then we have eight
specific steps in terms of like howdo we overcome this, how do we
create a space for open and vulnerableconversation. That's like eighteen steps. Man,
(00:43):
you guys got to memorize it.Just okay, it's ten steps,
ten steps, ten steps. Let'sget into it. Though. My name
is Pie and this is doctor Glenn. We spent over forty years researching relationships
science as well as practicing in thespace of clinical therapy. Relationships are the
great a source of meaning joint successthat we experience in life, but they're
also the source of some of ourgreatest pains. We created TWR because in
(01:07):
our moments of pain, we needbetter relationships in weeks, not years.
We offer coaching, frameworks and toolsto do just that. Welcome to twelve
Big Relationships. All right, friends, welcome to the podcast. My name
is Pie. I am a relationshipcoach, researcher, and educator. I'm
doctor Glenn. I'm a department chair, professor, clinical psychologist, and author
(01:29):
and all sorts of awesome. Thankyou appreciate that. So our topic today
is defensiveness, and I want tojump straight into kind of like defining it.
But first we got we got somenotes to address. Let's do it.
Our first note a negative review.We got too much ponty humor going
on. Man, I read thosereviews and this is my take, and
(01:53):
this is my honest take with nodefensiveness, zero defensiveness. I get that
people can be offended, right,However, if you look at the totality
of what we're shared, and ifyou're fixating only on the potty humor and
then not the content and the lackof you know, and the authenticity that's
being shared in that space, andyou can appreciate that, then that's okay.
(02:15):
It might be space for you.This may not be the right space
for you. And then, honestly, with all due respect, you shouldn't
watch the podcast because in my truthand working with clients, it's about being
authentic and I think instead of beingoffended, like when you're watching the last
few podcasts, we're showing the workthat's required, like when we're working with
(02:36):
when I'm working with the clients,it's that level of directness and authenticity to
get to a truth that is truefor you and not this bullshit. It's
short term mental stimulation, but it'sthe inner work that's required for you to
make the best choices in your life, right, And that is what's being
translated to me. No defensiveness.I get it. It could be offensive
(02:57):
sometimes, but the point is there'sa level of truth and authenticity extends.
And if you're offended by that,and again I get it, but I'm
not going to apologize for it.And again, you don't have to watch.
You know, there's I agree witheverything you said, and we both
have like kind of different approaches tothis, which is part of why we're
(03:19):
doing this together. What's funny aboutthis is like in our conversations like,
not only is our work kind ofreflected in our clients, but it's reflecting
the relationship that you and I havewith each other. Like we've kind of
had to bring everything to the tableand learn how to be authentic and openly
communicate and to do this inside ofa business partnership. So it's a direct
reflection of that. But one thingI want to say is we created this
(03:43):
entire platform to be authentic, tobe different, to not be that clinical
therapy space where you say and youpresent this version of yourself that's not really
true to who you are, butit's the version that you're comfortable with other
people judging and looking at. We'rehere to be open and to be honest.
Yeah, I mean we had wehad this conversation before. Right.
Like therapy, it's kind of thismiddle space, right, it's governed by
(04:08):
insurance, right, and then youcan do like deeper dyes in therapy,
like trauma work and all those kindof things. Right, But it's a
lot of like talk type therapy,right, basic coaching. As you have
tools, you learn, it's kindof like a school, right. And
we've gone to the point where it'skind of like advanced coaching, right,
because we've gone beyond the therapy model. We go deep, but we also
(04:29):
give you practical tools all at thesame time, right, So it's taking
your mental and emotional capacities to anotherlevel. And again that's being demonstrated.
That level of authenticity is being shared, right, even with the potty humor.
It's the level of authenticity that's takingplace, not you know, between
us in the sessions. Right,Let's be honest here, right. You've
(04:51):
met other podcasters, right, andthey can fake. They can be fake
on camera, look really really warmand do the Captain Kirk and oh oh
my god, and I care aboutyou. And then behind the scenes and
stubby in the back, they canbe a backstabber. They can be a
real douche. Right. I'm sorryfor the potty humor, but they can.
(05:12):
They can present at summer breeze andsmell nice, but deep down they're
not. Right, I feel likethey're You're whether we're on camera, whether
we're working with clients. This isthis is what it is. It is.
I mean, there are there aremoments like I mean, I don't
feel like what we're doing. Sometimeswe get a little bit deep into the
potty humor, but we can dialthat piece back. But in terms of
(05:33):
like just being open and honest,when someone's a dick, they're a dick,
Like there's no other way to sayit. And I could be,
we could be you know, indirectabout it, but I don't feel like
that is authentic to either of us. And so, yeah, and I
kind of do love the fact that, like you're the doctor that has twenty
years of clinical therapy experience, thatis, a psychologist, a department chair,
(05:55):
you're all of these things, andyet you bring it to the table
like we're just talking like regular people. And that's one of the things that
our clients love. They mentioned thatover and over and over again, how
you're incredibly real. Yeah, andI appreciate and I think on both sides,
right, like you left, Imean, you're still doing work as
a businessman, but you came andtook your passions right because you're looking at
your life, the divorce that happened. You want to pass information onto your
(06:19):
kids. There's a level of authenticitywith that. There's a level of vulnerability
and care. And then for metoo, write I've been in the profession,
I could do the lingo. Ican hold that space, right.
I just don't want to do thatanymore. Yea. And so everything that
we're doing again and the bigger contextis an authentic space, right And if
(06:40):
you can see it in that thatlens and then you're like, okay,
but this is a little bit offensiveto me like that, that has more
credence to me. But if you'rejust fixating on oh, this is so
offensive to me, then I don'tthink you're really paying attention. Maybe you're
defensive and closed off. Maybe youneed to watch this video and take the
ten steps that are going to beprovided. I think so. I think
(07:01):
so, And I want to getright into this. There's one more note
that I would like to clear.So we're gonna just clear the We read,
by the way, all of yourguys as comments. So if you
guys are watching videos, if youguys are on the podcast, poster comments,
give us your thoughts. We willshare what we think on things.
And one of the other things thatwe shared was like, there's all these
comments of this co host is veryNo, it's not this co host,
(07:24):
it's this interviewer is very annoying.I think it's people that will probably only
watch like maybe one episode or something. I am not the interviewer here,
and if you go and watch thereare ninety plus episodes. We're sharing content
like where we're partners in this,in this thing together. We are co
host. I am a researcher.I have twenty years of practical experience in
the space of relationships, and I'malso an online educator. So if I
(07:46):
share ideas, it's not coming outof my ass. Oh let's want them
to look at you, getting realThe potty humor is coming on this side
too. Hey, that's not pottyhumor. Cursing is not potty humor.
Burpon fart, I thought that wasa great analogy. If you are defensive
and people are like content, likethey feel contempt towards you, and you're
(08:09):
not recognizing it. Dude, youstink you sorry, you smell man,
that is the premise of right,that's the analogy there. And again we
had We didn't just make just burpenfart jokes for thirty five or forty minutes.
There's a lot of content there.I think there was meaningful content there
there. We won't beat this deadhorse. You guys know we've addressed it.
Let's go straight into this have anauthentic conversation around defensiveness. And first,
(08:31):
I guess step number one is let'sdefine it. What is defensiveness?
So, in simplistic terms, weall have wounds in our life, right
from our upbringings, from the thingsthat happened to us, and then we
try not to feel those pains again. Right, So, defensiveness is this
mental construct that you display to theworld. You know, you want to
(08:52):
be seen a certain way in hopesthat your wounds don't get exposed so that
you do not get hurt. Yeah. Right, So for example, like
if you're a person like yeah,you know, I've been heard or I'm
kind of dependent, but then youpresent yourself as a very independent person on
the outside, eventually, over time, it's going to get exposed, right,
And this is where a lot offrustration and relationships actually take place.
(09:13):
Absolutely. One of the things thatwhen I think of defensiveness, it's that,
like you describe this emotional wall thatwe essentially put up to protect ourselves,
and in doing so, we thinkthat we're exuding strength, but everybody
else recognizes it for what it is. I mean, at least those that
are emotionally aware, they can seestraight through it to your insecurities. Well,
this is how it goes, right, So again it doesn't mean that
(09:33):
there's not true to it. Right. You can present yourself at an emotional
distance, but the more intimate youget, the more people's weirdness comes out
right and your wounds come out right. And then if you're the person that
you're with this individual and you're like, okay, I'm a very independent person,
they believe you. But then allof a sudden, like the dependency
starts to come out. There's adisconnect because now they're seeing two different versions,
(09:54):
right, and then people internalize itas oh, there's something wrong with
me or I got to be moreconfident versus it's hard to read you because
what you present it doesn't match what'shappening emotionally as we're connecting, and that
is pushing people away. Yeah,right, and that is what defense iness
again on a superficial level can help, but then on a more intimate level,
(10:16):
it pushes people away. I lovethe way that you've put that entire
thing, So why don't kind ofstep to let's go into actually identifying what
defensiveness looks like in a relationship,because it looks like a lot of different
things, So you want to startfrom the top. I mean, I
think what it's emotionally closing off.Yeah, there's there's the denial of responsibility.
(10:37):
Yeah, it's blaming other people whenin truth, that's really a you
problem. Yeah, making excuses foryour behavior, making excuses being defensive or
argumentative or even going kind of onthe attack. Right, Like you say
something about me and I'm like,yeah, but you do this. Yeah
yeah, but let's define what thatmeans. Though. The reason it's defensive
is what are you defending? So, like, again a defense a person
(11:00):
if I'm presenting myself as a veryindependent person, but then my emotional needy
side is coming out, but I'mdefending that I'm independent. You're trying to
cover up and push your feelings down. Yeah, and you're creating a false
reality to this individual. You're presentinga reality that's really not true, right,
And that's what's causing a disconnect becausewhen people do that, you can
feel it. It doesn't feel good. This doesn't match what you're saying.
(11:24):
Man, it doesn't feel good.And that's again, this is starting to
push people away. Well, andI love that definition that you put forward
because from that definition, you canactually be defensive without ever having a conversation
with somebody, you know, theentire idea. And one of the things
that I really dislike and I kindof try to educate my kids around,
is this bad bitch vibes, likethis air of like I'm this so awesome
(11:50):
and I'm this and you can seeit everywhere across social media, and to
me, is screams insecurity. Itscreams defensiveness without even having a conversation with
you. Yeah, like if it'sover exaggerated or you're overcompensating for something,
it kind of shows, right,versus like genuine people that are genuinely confident
they believe in themselves, it shows, Yeah, it shows. So in
(12:11):
short, if you want to identifydefensiveness in our behavior, what we're looking
at is basically any behavior that putsup a wall that basically says you can't
know any more about me than whatis already there. And this is where
I'm going to put in this hardboundary and I'm not going to accept any
ownership, any responsibility, anything thatcould potentially damage my own self esteem or
(12:31):
my own self image. Yeah.Correct, So again, it's like you
had your wounds and then to overcompensate, you're going to create a mental construct
of yourself that you're going to presentto the world. It has some truth,
but it's going to falter and breakdown as you get more intimate in
your relationships. And what do mostpeople do? Doesn't work out, so
they double down on trying to bemore independent, and then more of their
(12:52):
insecurities come out and it just getsworse and worse and worse. Again.
Defensiveness works to a certain point,but once it starts to get more intimates,
it's not gonna work at all.Yeah, there's kind of that line
there right between like a boundary wherelike, but you generally implement boundaries in
terms of like, the more boundarieswe need, the less intimate relationship is
right, So we have lots ofboundaries and those can be healthy measures of
(13:15):
like defensiveness. But then you havewithin close relationships the defensiveness that's that's not
a boundary. It's just an unwillingnessto see oneself, to see their own
behavior in the relationship correct, Andit's not treating one thing as a saying.
There's emotion, there's like intellectual intelligence, skill building knowledge, and then
there's emotional intelligence. Knowing yourself,yeah, knowing your wounds, knowing your
(13:37):
healthy side emotionally what those things looklike. That is where real strength comes
into play. I think this pieceis definitely worth kind of pointing out right
because I often feel like people's boundariesget confused, like boundaries and defensiveness are
not one and the same thing,like, but people will treat them that
way. Like they might say,like if we're having an argument from or
(13:58):
conversation, you might say that like, you know what, this is my
boundary. I'm not going to havethis conversation with you. I'm not going
to go to this place. That'sif we have an intimate relation that that
is not a boundary. That isa defensive wall that you're putting up.
A boundary is something that is generallyhealthy, something that like kind of puts
an offense a border in a relationshipto define like what you're willing and not
(14:20):
willing to do. But if we'retalking about a situation where I'm wrong in
something and I go, you knowwhat, this is my boundaries, I'm
not going to talk about this stuff. No, I'm wrong. That is
being defensive. It is not aboundary and I think those things often can
be confused and mixed with each other. No, I agree, and again
it can be subtle sometimes, right, But a boundary means this, right,
(14:41):
the more intimate you get into arelationship. Right, So again using
that example, Okay, I'm thedefensive person, so I'm portraying myself as
an independent person, but I'm veryneedy emotionally, right. And then we
start getting closer, and then you'reseeing the neediness come out, and then
you're pointing it out to me,and I'm arguing to you know, I'm
this independent person, right, becausenow we're getting closer together. You setting
(15:03):
the boundary means that as we're gettingmore intimate and my awareness is being transferred
onto you, you're like, thisisn't working for me. You're not owning
it. So you're pushing me awayfrom that intimate space and you're finding the
actual space where we can be cordialand just be normal with each other.
That is what a boundary means.The other example is just shutting someone off.
That's an example, just like beingclosed off yourself. But if you've
(15:26):
made attempts boundary, it can bethe furthest distance. It's just the appropriate
space where you can have a somewhatnormal relationship with that person. And that's
you're pushing them out of that intimatespace. That's what it actually meets.
I love it. So let's geton to kind of the eight steps then,
like how do you change defensiveness ina relationship. We'll start with number
(15:46):
one, So number one of oureight, which is going to compile to
ten ten. Cultivate self awareness.You've got to know who you are.
And again it's separating the mental constructversus your emotion life. We know we
have a lot of successful people thatwe work with. They're very successful in
life, but then in their interpersonallives it's a hot mess, right,
(16:08):
And the reason is because emotional intelligenceis separate. Right. You have to
develop that level of yourself like yourwounded self, you're a healthy self,
right, just like it's a skillbuilding that you need to develop, just
like you do intellectually learning skills,learning knowledge, same thing from that emotional
level, and that requires a deeplevel of self awareness. Yeah, there
(16:29):
can almost be like when you lookat it, successful individuals, there can
almost be a benefit to your lackof self awareness. And a lot of
instances, like if you're talking aboutsomebody who's very career driven. You're talking
about someoneh wants to build a business, someone who just has a singular vision
to do something right. The lackof self awareness can actually be helpful in
that process because they don't pay attentionto what other people say. They're not
empathetic, they're just kind of singularlyfocused on this vision. And so they
(16:53):
can be incredibly successful in this routebecause they can just follow this thing to
the end degree regardless of what anyonesays. And then into their interpersonal relationships,
it's a complete train wreck. Itcauses a lot of damage, right,
And this is the thing that happenswith a lot of our clients is
they're so successful, they've achieved everythingthat the world considers success, but then
in their relationships and with themselves theirwounds. No matter how much external success
(17:18):
they have, it didn't take awaythe pain, didn't take away the suffering,
It didn't take away the damage thatthey're transferring onto the people that they
care about the most. Again,that's that's a crucial part of a person's
life. Yeah, So if you'reever asking, like can someone change in
this area, or when will myspouse or my partner. When will this
person be less defensive? When willthey recognize what you're really looking at is
(17:40):
can they be self aware that's yourmarker? Yeah, and then owning their
vulnerabilities coming out like yeah, Iget it, you're you're accomplished, but
right now in this relationship, you'rekind of needy or you're kind of being
unreasonable right now, and then beingtaking ownership of that. That helps a
lot. That's how healing is done. There's so I want to go on
to kind of step two of this, and it ties back to this cultivating
(18:03):
of self awareness. So step twois practicing mindfulness. What's what is helpful
in these moments? If you wantto cultivate your own self awareness? Right,
we can't control the people who canthink of ourselves. In moments where
you might feel like you're moving towardsbeing defensive, there are actual kind of
signs, like physical signs like youmight feel like your your heart rate elevating,
(18:25):
you might feel your stomach tensing andgetting knots. You might be thinking
of like the counter argument, likethis person is still talking, You're like,
oh, I'm I'm ready to likethrow this back in their face.
These are the areas where we canbegin kind of practicing mindfulness and going,
oh, you know what, I'mactually moving towards that defensive space and become
more self aware. This is howyou know, this is my more practical
version of mindfulness. You know,Like why people are defensive, it's not
(18:48):
because that they're bad people. It'sthey've had really bad experiences in their life
and then they try to act normalabout it and they just try to continue
on, which is great to acertain point, but it place they're diminishing
the pain and the suffering that theywent through. Right, So mindfulness would
be like, you know what,this isn't working, and my relationships aren't
working because the wounds that I wentthrough they were worse than what I ever
(19:11):
thought they could be and they're bleedingin right. So that level of mindfulness
and awareness and that doesn't negate yoursuccesses and who you are as a person.
But once you get into that spaceand you start honoring your feelings,
then then you'll naturally start honoring thefeelings of other people too. That's incredibly
difficult to do because society doesn't teachus to think that way. They don't.
(19:32):
Yeah, they teach us to kindof bury it, you know,
like I remember, over our conversationsand kind of developing our relationship, I've
said multiple times, kind of likein a joke, like I go to
my basement. And one time youasked what that really meant, right,
and I was like, well,I grew up kind of alone in my
basement as a single child, andthat's the place that I always went to
whenever I was scared, when Iwas like, that is literally where I
(19:53):
so in my head, anytime somethingthreatens or presents a ch challenge, I
go to my basement. But it'sin my head now. The basement is
the place where I disconnect from everythingand just go back to that space where
I feel comfortable. But what you'reessentially saying is like it requires us to
do exactly what you know everybody tellsus not to do, Like the common
(20:15):
wisdom is just you know, toughit out. But this is off.
But remember when we first met andyou're talking about like you know how you
hate it, like, oh youstill do, like the relationship industry and
couples therapy, and there you know, we showed them. I hate the
unhealthy aspects of it, the research, but you know, you know what
like got me and I'm like,yeah, I really want to work with
(20:36):
you. Is because when you sharedyour pain, right, I remember,
you're sharing about like your wife.And then even the therapist is like,
well, you should listen more,you should do this, and they try
to normalize the experience versus when youare so frustrated, I'm trying my best,
I'm over extending myself, I'm doingthis And then what do they tell
you, Oh, pie, you'rebeing a rational your feelings don't happen?
(20:57):
Was being gas lit by the goddamntherapy? Have your feelings have no validity?
Right? It's the opposite. Thoseare valid ass feelings. And you
had to make not incremental changes,but you had to make big change at
massive shifts, and you did.And because you honored your feelings, right,
Because if you finally honored how badthe situation was, right, that's
(21:19):
where the defensiveness went away. Andthat's what I'm saying. When your people
aren't defensive, it's not because they'rebad people. They're downplaying how much pain
that they're actually in. Yeah,that's a beautiful take on unmindfulness. So
actually moving towards that space and recognizingas opposed to like the typical like just
tough it out, just walk itoff, just you know, bury it.
You're stronger than your past, Like, of course you're stronger than your
(21:41):
past. That doesn't mean it's notworth recognizing those things because that it was,
yeah, like it was still badman, and then giving yourself credit
for all that you accomplished. Butyet, you know what, I could
still see how this is bleeding throughabsolutely. Okay. So step number three
is in a moment where we arefeeling like we're moving towards defense, is
to remind yourself to practice active listening. And what active listening is not is
(22:07):
thinking about the next thing you wantto say, thinking about how wrong you
are and presenting that idea, thinkingabout all the things that I could do
to show you why that is incorrect. That is not active listening. Yeah,
like, instead of trying to proveyou wrong, it's about Okay,
I don't agree, but I wantto see this person's point of view.
Yeah, that's active listening. Andit's difficult because active listening requires that you
(22:29):
listen despite maybe disagreeing with what thatperson is saying. Yeah, And again,
when people are defensive, they assumethat their anger is connecting. It's
not it's a wall, right,versus like I'm hurting. I'm hurting because
this really hurt me. That's connecting, right, So as being able to
separate the two. Yeah, oneof the things that I really like to
use personally in terms of moments oflike active listening and especially like the feelings
(22:52):
of maybe being triggered. We're goingto talk about that in just a moment,
but it's to remind yourself that whenyou move towards defensiveness, what we're
really talking about is like this instinctualresponse to protect yourself, right, This
this kind of intrinsic, like youknow, just lower brain response to like
a moment where we might be ina life or death scenario. But life
today is not that most cases theyare not going to be life or death
(23:15):
and they don't require this level oflike defensive response or this triggered response.
So one of the things that kindof helps me is to remind myself like,
look, if this is not alife or death type moment, then
I don't need a life or deathlevel response to it, absolutely right.
And again, and if you feelthat life or death response instead of oh
this is a rational a pain iscoming out, and it's honoring those feelings
(23:38):
and using that so that you canheal. Yeah, we're going to talk
about that too, because that's abeautiful part in your process. Okay,
So number four, which I'm goingto add an asterisk to this, but
it's using I statements. You wantto explain this piece. Yeah, So
it comes from like, you know, communication skills. It's you know,
very typical and traditional counseling, andit is affective. Don't get me this
(23:59):
wrong, like I feel hurt orI feel angry or when this happened,
instead of you made me feel thisway, you did this to me,
it's yeah, this this is myinterpretation of what happened. I'm angry about
it, I'm hurt about it,and I'm upset about it. That's a
healthy boundary because you're taking ownership ofyour feelings. Yeah. Absolutely, And
my asterisk is that it is aneffective tool. It is just one of
(24:21):
many different tools that we have toincorporate. So it's not the be all,
end all. So if you haveresembment underneath and you're pretending just to
do I statements and over, likewe've seen that so many times, right,
it just goes nowhere and it doesn'twork. It almost becomes I don't
know why. But in a lotof cases when you go to therapy or
counseling and you're talking about relationships,the ice statement is used is if it's
like this this magic, you know, solution to everything, and it's like,
(24:44):
no, this is just one simpletool. But an example of it
would be like if you hurt meabout something like you said, I feel
hurt, and we're going to addanother piece of this. So if we
go to number five, it's focusingon the facts, so we're not only
not blaming the other person. It'snot you made me feel this way,
it's I feel this way. Butthen step five is focusing on the facts
of the situation. So the rightway is I and then when right I
(25:08):
feel this way when you do this, and it's not about labeling you and
saying like you're you know, you'rejust a prick, like when you when
you forget to call me at night, you're being an asshole. It's completely
insensitive, like how could you dostuff like that? It's more like to
flip it, it's it's when youforget to call me at night, I
feel like I'm not a priority inyour life. It's actually using that moment
(25:30):
to present the fact and then thestate how that affects me personally. Yeah,
it's so funny because we had acouple that I was working with and
then seeing the I statements, youknow, the same example, like you
didn't call me when you you camehome late and out instead of like I
was upset because you didn't call andthen and you came home late, So
I was really upset and worried.Right, it was, I feel upset
(25:52):
because you were being a dumb assand you didn't even have the wherewithal to
have care for me, and thereforeI felt really angry and resemble. Like
it's just kind of weaponizing it,right as all people can kind of twist
those kind of healthy coping skills,but focusing on the facts using eye and
when that can be a very helpfultool in these moments for sure. Okay,
(26:14):
so if we were to go on, we have I believe this is
number sick. I mean, okay, number seven, because we have we
have our total list, right,Yes, Anthony's going to figure out how
to you know, edit this soit's like the correct numbers for each one.
There was ten. But now we'reon number seven and we skipped a
few some ways. So number seventhough is to take responsibility. So if
(26:37):
I made a mistake, I haveto take ownership and responsibility in that moment.
But this is I want to Iwant people to redefine what taking ownership
means, right, because one timepeople will be like, you know what,
something is wrong with me. Oh, I'm just I'm just bad,
or they'll label themselves as bad.It's not The truth is again, if
you're you have a version of yourself, it doesn't mean that it's not true.
But then if dwindles away when youstart getting more intimating your relationships,
(27:00):
right, So it's owning, like, you know what, maybe my pathologies
are worse than I thought. MaybeI need to validate those experiences and own
how it's bleeding out. Now you'reshowing self love to yourself and you're giving
yourself the understanding it actually needs.You're not trying to normalize something that actually
it wasn't normal and it's hurting youand it's hurting your relationships. Give it
(27:22):
that respect. Yes, And thereare like on a practical side, right,
I agree with you one thousand percenton a practical side in that moment
of a conversation where like you feellike you might be going towards defensiveness or
I feel like I might be goingSo if I said to you, like
you know what, like I feellike even if I approached it in the
wrong way, right, and Icome to you and I say, I
(27:42):
feel like you're being a dick,Like you didn't call me, you didn't
do this, and like that's notcool. Like there is a moment there
still where you could potentially diffuse itall by simply acknowledging, by simply taking
ownership over that. Yeah, Like, I'll give you an example. I'm
not gonna say the person because he'sa friend of but we hung out,
like me and my like some collegefriends. We hung out, and you
(28:03):
know, he's just not the mostsuccess with dating or women, right,
But in his mind he was like, I want you guys to know something,
and we're like yeah, okay,and he's like, comes, I
am not a player and we're likeno. But in his mind, his
version, I was like, hehad to present this version of himself because
underneath he was so insecure. Hefeels uncomfortable, he has a hard time
(28:25):
being vulnerable. But also this individualhad a very difficult childhood growing up,
and he had a lot of woundsand suffering and until the connection of dude,
you know, instead of like,oh it's it's her, or yeah
it didn't work out because they're weird, or I didn't like their job,
it's finally you know, it's mebecause I had so much pain, I
don't know how to deal with itwhen I start to feel feelings for other
(28:45):
people. And that was the shiftfor him, because he started being emotionally
honest. Yeah, that changes theway his friends would interact with him.
I would imagine as well, likewhen when you can actually acknowledge that,
that changes the dynamic of every Andthat's kind of the point, right when
there's ownership, when there's actual responsibilitytaken, it changes the dynamic in the
situation. Even if you approach mein a way that's that's uncomfortable, that's
(29:07):
not good communication. And I say, you know what, you're right.
I was kind of being a dickthere. Automatically your defense is lower two
because I'm acknowledging this. You're holdingspace. Yes, we're holding space for
like a mutual truth, like you'reright, yeah, And like with the
friend was so shocking to him hecouldn't speak, and then finally like he
could relax, like, Okay,you guys know, yeah we've we've known
(29:30):
for a while. Bro, It'sokay, we still love you man.
Right, So again it's that honestspace. Yeah, yeah, I want
to go to number nine. Thisone is. This one's a big piece
from basically the work that you've donealso your book. But trauma triggered therapy.
You've wrapped this kind of term upto well, I'm gonna let you
(29:51):
define it. Yeah. So traumais like you know, in traditional psychotherapy,
if you get too emotional, youcan't rationalize it away. Your emotions
are considered rational, right, Traumatrigger therapy says no, Actually, when
you have emotions that you can't rationalize, like you're just being triggered by something,
it's not irrational at all. It'syour wounds coming out these relationships like
a signpost that you can use toactually heal. And again we be tied
(30:12):
all together. It comes from thephysiology, It comes from your nervous system,
It comes from your attachment wounds,It comes from your coping skills of
trying to normalize things and it actuallyhas credence and validation for you in terms
of what you need to do inyour relationships moving forward. Yeah, I
love the approach because it's it's incrediblyempowering, right as opposed to, like,
as opposed to what do we oftendo when it comes to being triggered.
(30:34):
We try to control external you know, like I'm I'm gonna change the
way that you talk to me.I'm going to tell you that if you
say this, then you're going totrigger me. If you do this,
then this is going to happen.And I'm going to remove myself from situations,
which which does nothing. It actuallymakes it even worse. But instead
you're kind of using that trigger pointas that road sign of like no,
(30:55):
that that actually indicates personal work.And the best, in my mind,
the best way to know when you'relike kind of triggered by a pass wound,
this pass bruise that's just sensitive tothe touch, is like when your
reaction goes far beyond what the momentmerits exactly right, because it's like,
man, did nothing really bad happened, but I feel so strong again,
that's your trauma trigger coming out.It's an opportunity to heal Yeah, opportunity
(31:19):
to take ownership is well, takeownership, and then again you're instead of
you know, a lot of peopleexternally they seek intimacy, right connection and
to be real and then oh Ifound the love of my life or whatever
the case may be. Right,But when you're owning your triggers, you're
being so authentically emotional with yourself.Now you're opening yourself up to actually have
honest and intimate relationships. Yeah,totally, okay, last step, you
(31:42):
saw the numbers. Seek feedback.Seek feedback, so listen to the feedback
and even if you don't agree,try to hear that person's perspective, because
it's not about right or wrong asmuch as each person just wants to be
understood. And when there's understanding theright or wrong or who's the moral authority,
all that starts to go away,and it's just we just both want
(32:02):
to be accepted for who we are. Bottom line. Bottom line, I
have nothing to add and I couldn'tsit it better, So I love it.
This hopefully was insightful for everybody thatis watching or listening to the podcast,
and we'd love to know your thoughts. So if you guys are watching
on YouTube, you gauys can leavecomments. As you can see, we
read them and we will address things. But in the meantime, what we'd
(32:29):
love is you guys can actually jointhe newsletter for twelve relationships. It's each
week we basically send out just nicetips and insights. They're handwritten messages from
dot gunn and myself. Well,if I'm honest, I'm usually but it's
from Pie. They're from both ofus. They're from both of our work,
although I'm the one that's generating theemails, correct. But yeah,
inside of that, we also talkabout like our programs. From time to
(32:50):
time, we do enrollments and whatnot, and so yeah, we'd love to
see you guys inside of the newsletter. We promise only value and hopefully we'll
see you inside of our programs,whether it's a intensive or one on one
coaching. You guys can find linksfor that as well in description of the
video. That's it for today.Awesome, Thank you guys. Please take care,
How do you stop being defensive inyour relationships? That's our topic for today.
That's a good one that requires selfawareness and introspection and brutal honesty.
That is an area of life thatyou have progressed beyond me brutal honesty.
I would say, I'm a veryhonest and authentic person, but you got
(00:21):
me there. But I love thistopic. Though there's so much around like
being defensive and relationships. We're goingto break this down are like ten steps.
We're gonna go through defined to defensiveness. What is defensive behavior because that's
kind of like stuff that we overlooka lot. And then we have eight
specific steps in terms of like howdo we overcome this, how do we
create a space for open and vulnerableconversation. That's like eighteen steps. Man,
(00:43):
you guys got to memorize it.Just okay, it's ten steps,
ten steps, ten steps. Let'sget into it. Though. My name
is Pie and this is doctor Glenn. We spent over forty years researching relationships
science as well as practicing in thespace of clinical therapy. Relationships are the
great a source of meaning joint successthat we experience in life, but they're
also the source of some of ourgreatest pains. We created TWR because in
(01:07):
our moments of pain, we needbetter relationships in weeks, not years.
We offer coaching, frameworks and toolsto do just that. Welcome to twelve
Big Relationships. All right, friends, welcome to the podcast. My name
is Pie. I am a relationshipcoach, researcher, and educator. I'm
doctor Glenn. I'm a department chair, professor, clinical psychologist, and author
(01:29):
and all sorts of awesome. Thankyou appreciate that. So our topic today
is defensiveness, and I want tojump straight into kind of like defining it.
But first we got we got somenotes to address. Let's do it.
Our first note a negative review.We got too much ponty humor going
on. Man, I read thosereviews and this is my take, and
(01:53):
this is my honest take with nodefensiveness, zero defensiveness. I get that
people can be offended, right,However, if you look at the totality
of what we're shared, and ifyou're fixating only on the potty humor and
then not the content and the lackof you know, and the authenticity that's
being shared in that space, andyou can appreciate that, then that's okay.
(02:15):
It might be space for you.This may not be the right space
for you. And then, honestly, with all due respect, you shouldn't
watch the podcast because in my truthand working with clients, it's about being
authentic and I think instead of beingoffended, like when you're watching the last
few podcasts, we're showing the workthat's required, like when we're working with
(02:36):
when I'm working with the clients,it's that level of directness and authenticity to
get to a truth that is truefor you and not this bullshit. It's
short term mental stimulation, but it'sthe inner work that's required for you to
make the best choices in your life, right, And that is what's being
translated to me. No defensiveness.I get it. It could be offensive
(02:57):
sometimes, but the point is there'sa level of truth and authenticity extends.
And if you're offended by that,and again I get it, but I'm
not going to apologize for it.And again, you don't have to watch.
You know, there's I agree witheverything you said, and we both
have like kind of different approaches tothis, which is part of why we're
(03:19):
doing this together. What's funny aboutthis is like in our conversations like,
not only is our work kind ofreflected in our clients, but it's reflecting
the relationship that you and I havewith each other. Like we've kind of
had to bring everything to the tableand learn how to be authentic and openly
communicate and to do this inside ofa business partnership. So it's a direct
reflection of that. But one thingI want to say is we created this
(03:43):
entire platform to be authentic, tobe different, to not be that clinical
therapy space where you say and youpresent this version of yourself that's not really
true to who you are, butit's the version that you're comfortable with other
people judging and looking at. We'rehere to be open and to be honest.
Yeah, I mean we had wehad this conversation before. Right.
Like therapy, it's kind of thismiddle space, right, it's governed by
(04:08):
insurance, right, and then youcan do like deeper dyes in therapy,
like trauma work and all those kindof things. Right, But it's a
lot of like talk type therapy,right, basic coaching. As you have
tools, you learn, it's kindof like a school, right. And
we've gone to the point where it'skind of like advanced coaching, right,
because we've gone beyond the therapy model. We go deep, but we also
(04:29):
give you practical tools all at thesame time, right, So it's taking
your mental and emotional capacities to anotherlevel. And again that's being demonstrated.
That level of authenticity is being shared, right, even with the potty humor.
It's the level of authenticity that's takingplace, not you know, between
us in the sessions. Right,Let's be honest here, right. You've
(04:51):
met other podcasters, right, andthey can fake. They can be fake
on camera, look really really warmand do the Captain Kirk and oh oh
my god, and I care aboutyou. And then behind the scenes and
stubby in the back, they canbe a backstabber. They can be a
real douche. Right. I'm sorryfor the potty humor, but they can.
(05:12):
They can present at summer breeze andsmell nice, but deep down they're
not. Right, I feel likethey're You're whether we're on camera, whether
we're working with clients. This isthis is what it is. It is.
I mean, there are there aremoments like I mean, I don't
feel like what we're doing. Sometimeswe get a little bit deep into the
potty humor, but we can dialthat piece back. But in terms of
(05:33):
like just being open and honest,when someone's a dick, they're a dick,
Like there's no other way to sayit. And I could be,
we could be you know, indirectabout it, but I don't feel like
that is authentic to either of us. And so, yeah, and I
kind of do love the fact that, like you're the doctor that has twenty
years of clinical therapy experience, thatis, a psychologist, a department chair,
(05:55):
you're all of these things, andyet you bring it to the table
like we're just talking like regular people. And that's one of the things that
our clients love. They mentioned thatover and over and over again, how
you're incredibly real. Yeah, andI appreciate and I think on both sides,
right, like you left, Imean, you're still doing work as
a businessman, but you came andtook your passions right because you're looking at
your life, the divorce that happened. You want to pass information onto your
(06:19):
kids. There's a level of authenticitywith that. There's a level of vulnerability
and care. And then for metoo, write I've been in the profession,
I could do the lingo. Ican hold that space, right.
I just don't want to do thatanymore. Yea. And so everything that
we're doing again and the bigger contextis an authentic space, right And if
(06:40):
you can see it in that thatlens and then you're like, okay,
but this is a little bit offensiveto me like that, that has more
credence to me. But if you'rejust fixating on oh, this is so
offensive to me, then I don'tthink you're really paying attention. Maybe you're
defensive and closed off. Maybe youneed to watch this video and take the
ten steps that are going to beprovided. I think so. I think
(07:01):
so, And I want to getright into this. There's one more note
that I would like to clear.So we're gonna just clear the We read,
by the way, all of yourguys as comments. So if you
guys are watching videos, if youguys are on the podcast, poster comments,
give us your thoughts. We willshare what we think on things.
And one of the other things thatwe shared was like, there's all these
comments of this co host is veryNo, it's not this co host,
(07:24):
it's this interviewer is very annoying.I think it's people that will probably only
watch like maybe one episode or something. I am not the interviewer here,
and if you go and watch thereare ninety plus episodes. We're sharing content
like where we're partners in this,in this thing together. We are co
host. I am a researcher.I have twenty years of practical experience in
the space of relationships, and I'malso an online educator. So if I
(07:46):
share ideas, it's not coming outof my ass. Oh let's want them
to look at you, getting realThe potty humor is coming on this side
too. Hey, that's not pottyhumor. Cursing is not potty humor.
Burpon fart, I thought that wasa great analogy. If you are defensive
and people are like content, likethey feel contempt towards you, and you're
(08:09):
not recognizing it. Dude, youstink you sorry, you smell man,
that is the premise of right,that's the analogy there. And again we
had We didn't just make just burpenfart jokes for thirty five or forty minutes.
There's a lot of content there.I think there was meaningful content there
there. We won't beat this deadhorse. You guys know we've addressed it.
Let's go straight into this have anauthentic conversation around defensiveness. And first,
(08:31):
I guess step number one is let'sdefine it. What is defensiveness?
So, in simplistic terms, weall have wounds in our life, right
from our upbringings, from the thingsthat happened to us, and then we
try not to feel those pains again. Right, So, defensiveness is this
mental construct that you display to theworld. You know, you want to
(08:52):
be seen a certain way in hopesthat your wounds don't get exposed so that
you do not get hurt. Yeah. Right, So for example, like
if you're a person like yeah,you know, I've been heard or I'm
kind of dependent, but then youpresent yourself as a very independent person on
the outside, eventually, over time, it's going to get exposed, right,
And this is where a lot offrustration and relationships actually take place.
(09:13):
Absolutely. One of the things thatwhen I think of defensiveness, it's that,
like you describe this emotional wall thatwe essentially put up to protect ourselves,
and in doing so, we thinkthat we're exuding strength, but everybody
else recognizes it for what it is. I mean, at least those that
are emotionally aware, they can seestraight through it to your insecurities. Well,
this is how it goes, right, So again it doesn't mean that
(09:33):
there's not true to it. Right. You can present yourself at an emotional
distance, but the more intimate youget, the more people's weirdness comes out
right and your wounds come out right. And then if you're the person that
you're with this individual and you're like, okay, I'm a very independent person,
they believe you. But then allof a sudden, like the dependency
starts to come out. There's adisconnect because now they're seeing two different versions,
(09:54):
right, and then people internalize itas oh, there's something wrong with
me or I got to be moreconfident versus it's hard to read you because
what you present it doesn't match what'shappening emotionally as we're connecting, and that
is pushing people away. Yeah,right, and that is what defense iness
again on a superficial level can help, but then on a more intimate level,
(10:16):
it pushes people away. I lovethe way that you've put that entire
thing, So why don't kind ofstep to let's go into actually identifying what
defensiveness looks like in a relationship,because it looks like a lot of different
things, So you want to startfrom the top. I mean, I
think what it's emotionally closing off.Yeah, there's there's the denial of responsibility.
(10:37):
Yeah, it's blaming other people whenin truth, that's really a you
problem. Yeah, making excuses foryour behavior, making excuses being defensive or
argumentative or even going kind of onthe attack. Right, Like you say
something about me and I'm like,yeah, but you do this. Yeah
yeah, but let's define what thatmeans. Though. The reason it's defensive
is what are you defending? So, like, again a defense a person
(11:00):
if I'm presenting myself as a veryindependent person, but then my emotional needy
side is coming out, but I'mdefending that I'm independent. You're trying to
cover up and push your feelings down. Yeah, and you're creating a false
reality to this individual. You're presentinga reality that's really not true, right,
And that's what's causing a disconnect becausewhen people do that, you can
feel it. It doesn't feel good. This doesn't match what you're saying.
(11:24):
Man, it doesn't feel good.And that's again, this is starting to
push people away. Well, andI love that definition that you put forward
because from that definition, you canactually be defensive without ever having a conversation
with somebody, you know, theentire idea. And one of the things
that I really dislike and I kindof try to educate my kids around,
is this bad bitch vibes, likethis air of like I'm this so awesome
(11:50):
and I'm this and you can seeit everywhere across social media, and to
me, is screams insecurity. Itscreams defensiveness without even having a conversation with
you. Yeah, like if it'sover exaggerated or you're overcompensating for something,
it kind of shows, right,versus like genuine people that are genuinely confident
they believe in themselves, it shows, Yeah, it shows. So in
(12:11):
short, if you want to identifydefensiveness in our behavior, what we're looking
at is basically any behavior that putsup a wall that basically says you can't
know any more about me than whatis already there. And this is where
I'm going to put in this hardboundary and I'm not going to accept any
ownership, any responsibility, anything thatcould potentially damage my own self esteem or
(12:31):
my own self image. Yeah.Correct, So again, it's like you
had your wounds and then to overcompensate, you're going to create a mental construct
of yourself that you're going to presentto the world. It has some truth,
but it's going to falter and breakdown as you get more intimate in
your relationships. And what do mostpeople do? Doesn't work out, so
they double down on trying to bemore independent, and then more of their
(12:52):
insecurities come out and it just getsworse and worse and worse. Again.
Defensiveness works to a certain point,but once it starts to get more intimates,
it's not gonna work at all.Yeah, there's kind of that line
there right between like a boundary wherelike, but you generally implement boundaries in
terms of like, the more boundarieswe need, the less intimate relationship is
right, So we have lots ofboundaries and those can be healthy measures of
(13:15):
like defensiveness. But then you havewithin close relationships the defensiveness that's that's not
a boundary. It's just an unwillingnessto see oneself, to see their own
behavior in the relationship correct, Andit's not treating one thing as a saying.
There's emotion, there's like intellectual intelligence, skill building knowledge, and then
there's emotional intelligence. Knowing yourself,yeah, knowing your wounds, knowing your
(13:37):
healthy side emotionally what those things looklike. That is where real strength comes
into play. I think this pieceis definitely worth kind of pointing out right
because I often feel like people's boundariesget confused, like boundaries and defensiveness are
not one and the same thing,like, but people will treat them that
way. Like they might say,like if we're having an argument from or
(13:58):
conversation, you might say that like, you know what, this is my
boundary. I'm not going to havethis conversation with you. I'm not going
to go to this place. That'sif we have an intimate relation that that
is not a boundary. That isa defensive wall that you're putting up.
A boundary is something that is generallyhealthy, something that like kind of puts
an offense a border in a relationshipto define like what you're willing and not
(14:20):
willing to do. But if we'retalking about a situation where I'm wrong in
something and I go, you knowwhat, this is my boundaries, I'm
not going to talk about this stuff. No, I'm wrong. That is
being defensive. It is not aboundary and I think those things often can
be confused and mixed with each other. No, I agree, and again
it can be subtle sometimes, right, But a boundary means this, right,
(14:41):
the more intimate you get into arelationship. Right, So again using
that example, Okay, I'm thedefensive person, so I'm portraying myself as
an independent person, but I'm veryneedy emotionally, right. And then we
start getting closer, and then you'reseeing the neediness come out, and then
you're pointing it out to me,and I'm arguing to you know, I'm
this independent person, right, becausenow we're getting closer together. You setting
(15:03):
the boundary means that as we're gettingmore intimate and my awareness is being transferred
onto you, you're like, thisisn't working for me. You're not owning
it. So you're pushing me awayfrom that intimate space and you're finding the
actual space where we can be cordialand just be normal with each other.
That is what a boundary means.The other example is just shutting someone off.
That's an example, just like beingclosed off yourself. But if you've
(15:26):
made attempts boundary, it can bethe furthest distance. It's just the appropriate
space where you can have a somewhatnormal relationship with that person. And that's
you're pushing them out of that intimatespace. That's what it actually meets.
I love it. So let's geton to kind of the eight steps then,
like how do you change defensiveness ina relationship. We'll start with number
(15:46):
one, So number one of oureight, which is going to compile to
ten ten. Cultivate self awareness.You've got to know who you are.
And again it's separating the mental constructversus your emotion life. We know we
have a lot of successful people thatwe work with. They're very successful in
life, but then in their interpersonallives it's a hot mess, right,
(16:08):
And the reason is because emotional intelligenceis separate. Right. You have to
develop that level of yourself like yourwounded self, you're a healthy self,
right, just like it's a skillbuilding that you need to develop, just
like you do intellectually learning skills,learning knowledge, same thing from that emotional
level, and that requires a deeplevel of self awareness. Yeah, there
(16:29):
can almost be like when you lookat it, successful individuals, there can
almost be a benefit to your lackof self awareness. And a lot of
instances, like if you're talking aboutsomebody who's very career driven. You're talking
about someoneh wants to build a business, someone who just has a singular vision
to do something right. The lackof self awareness can actually be helpful in
that process because they don't pay attentionto what other people say. They're not
empathetic, they're just kind of singularlyfocused on this vision. And so they
(16:53):
can be incredibly successful in this routebecause they can just follow this thing to
the end degree regardless of what anyonesays. And then into their interpersonal relationships,
it's a complete train wreck. Itcauses a lot of damage, right,
And this is the thing that happenswith a lot of our clients is
they're so successful, they've achieved everythingthat the world considers success, but then
in their relationships and with themselves theirwounds. No matter how much external success
(17:18):
they have, it didn't take awaythe pain, didn't take away the suffering,
It didn't take away the damage thatthey're transferring onto the people that they
care about the most. Again,that's that's a crucial part of a person's
life. Yeah, So if you'reever asking, like can someone change in
this area, or when will myspouse or my partner. When will this
person be less defensive? When willthey recognize what you're really looking at is
(17:40):
can they be self aware that's yourmarker? Yeah, and then owning their
vulnerabilities coming out like yeah, Iget it, you're you're accomplished, but
right now in this relationship, you'rekind of needy or you're kind of being
unreasonable right now, and then beingtaking ownership of that. That helps a
lot. That's how healing is done. There's so I want to go on
to kind of step two of this, and it ties back to this cultivating
(18:03):
of self awareness. So step twois practicing mindfulness. What's what is helpful
in these moments? If you wantto cultivate your own self awareness? Right,
we can't control the people who canthink of ourselves. In moments where
you might feel like you're moving towardsbeing defensive, there are actual kind of
signs, like physical signs like youmight feel like your your heart rate elevating,
(18:25):
you might feel your stomach tensing andgetting knots. You might be thinking
of like the counter argument, likethis person is still talking, You're like,
oh, I'm I'm ready to likethrow this back in their face.
These are the areas where we canbegin kind of practicing mindfulness and going,
oh, you know what, I'mactually moving towards that defensive space and become
more self aware. This is howyou know, this is my more practical
version of mindfulness. You know,Like why people are defensive, it's not
(18:48):
because that they're bad people. It'sthey've had really bad experiences in their life
and then they try to act normalabout it and they just try to continue
on, which is great to acertain point, but it place they're diminishing
the pain and the suffering that theywent through. Right, So mindfulness would
be like, you know what,this isn't working, and my relationships aren't
working because the wounds that I wentthrough they were worse than what I ever
(19:11):
thought they could be and they're bleedingin right. So that level of mindfulness
and awareness and that doesn't negate yoursuccesses and who you are as a person.
But once you get into that spaceand you start honoring your feelings,
then then you'll naturally start honoring thefeelings of other people too. That's incredibly
difficult to do because society doesn't teachus to think that way. They don't.
(19:32):
Yeah, they teach us to kindof bury it, you know,
like I remember, over our conversationsand kind of developing our relationship, I've
said multiple times, kind of likein a joke, like I go to
my basement. And one time youasked what that really meant, right,
and I was like, well,I grew up kind of alone in my
basement as a single child, andthat's the place that I always went to
whenever I was scared, when Iwas like, that is literally where I
(19:53):
so in my head, anytime somethingthreatens or presents a ch challenge, I
go to my basement. But it'sin my head now. The basement is
the place where I disconnect from everythingand just go back to that space where
I feel comfortable. But what you'reessentially saying is like it requires us to
do exactly what you know everybody tellsus not to do, Like the common
(20:15):
wisdom is just you know, toughit out. But this is off.
But remember when we first met andyou're talking about like you know how you
hate it, like, oh youstill do, like the relationship industry and
couples therapy, and there you know, we showed them. I hate the
unhealthy aspects of it, the research, but you know, you know what
like got me and I'm like,yeah, I really want to work with
(20:36):
you. Is because when you sharedyour pain, right, I remember,
you're sharing about like your wife.And then even the therapist is like,
well, you should listen more,you should do this, and they try
to normalize the experience versus when youare so frustrated, I'm trying my best,
I'm over extending myself, I'm doingthis And then what do they tell
you, Oh, pie, you'rebeing a rational your feelings don't happen?
(20:57):
Was being gas lit by the goddamntherapy? Have your feelings have no validity?
Right? It's the opposite. Thoseare valid ass feelings. And you
had to make not incremental changes,but you had to make big change at
massive shifts, and you did.And because you honored your feelings, right,
Because if you finally honored how badthe situation was, right, that's
(21:19):
where the defensiveness went away. Andthat's what I'm saying. When your people
aren't defensive, it's not because they'rebad people. They're downplaying how much pain
that they're actually in. Yeah,that's a beautiful take on unmindfulness. So
actually moving towards that space and recognizingas opposed to like the typical like just
tough it out, just walk itoff, just you know, bury it.
You're stronger than your past, Like, of course you're stronger than your
(21:41):
past. That doesn't mean it's notworth recognizing those things because that it was,
yeah, like it was still badman, and then giving yourself credit
for all that you accomplished. Butyet, you know what, I could
still see how this is bleeding throughabsolutely. Okay. So step number three
is in a moment where we arefeeling like we're moving towards defense, is
to remind yourself to practice active listening. And what active listening is not is
(22:07):
thinking about the next thing you wantto say, thinking about how wrong you
are and presenting that idea, thinkingabout all the things that I could do
to show you why that is incorrect. That is not active listening. Yeah,
like, instead of trying to proveyou wrong, it's about Okay,
I don't agree, but I wantto see this person's point of view.
Yeah, that's active listening. Andit's difficult because active listening requires that you
(22:29):
listen despite maybe disagreeing with what thatperson is saying. Yeah, And again,
when people are defensive, they assumethat their anger is connecting. It's
not it's a wall, right,versus like I'm hurting. I'm hurting because
this really hurt me. That's connecting, right, So as being able to
separate the two. Yeah, oneof the things that I really like to
use personally in terms of moments oflike active listening and especially like the feelings
(22:52):
of maybe being triggered. We're goingto talk about that in just a moment,
but it's to remind yourself that whenyou move towards defensiveness, what we're
really talking about is like this instinctualresponse to protect yourself, right, This
this kind of intrinsic, like youknow, just lower brain response to like
a moment where we might be ina life or death scenario. But life
today is not that most cases theyare not going to be life or death
(23:15):
and they don't require this level oflike defensive response or this triggered response.
So one of the things that kindof helps me is to remind myself like,
look, if this is not alife or death type moment, then
I don't need a life or deathlevel response to it, absolutely right.
And again, and if you feelthat life or death response instead of oh
this is a rational a pain iscoming out, and it's honoring those feelings
(23:38):
and using that so that you canheal. Yeah, we're going to talk
about that too, because that's abeautiful part in your process. Okay,
So number four, which I'm goingto add an asterisk to this, but
it's using I statements. You wantto explain this piece. Yeah, So
it comes from like, you know, communication skills. It's you know,
very typical and traditional counseling, andit is affective. Don't get me this
(23:59):
wrong, like I feel hurt orI feel angry or when this happened,
instead of you made me feel thisway, you did this to me,
it's yeah, this this is myinterpretation of what happened. I'm angry about
it, I'm hurt about it,and I'm upset about it. That's a
healthy boundary because you're taking ownership ofyour feelings. Yeah. Absolutely, And
my asterisk is that it is aneffective tool. It is just one of
(24:21):
many different tools that we have toincorporate. So it's not the be all,
end all. So if you haveresembment underneath and you're pretending just to
do I statements and over, likewe've seen that so many times, right,
it just goes nowhere and it doesn'twork. It almost becomes I don't
know why. But in a lotof cases when you go to therapy or
counseling and you're talking about relationships,the ice statement is used is if it's
like this this magic, you know, solution to everything, and it's like,
(24:44):
no, this is just one simpletool. But an example of it
would be like if you hurt meabout something like you said, I feel
hurt, and we're going to addanother piece of this. So if we
go to number five, it's focusingon the facts, so we're not only
not blaming the other person. It'snot you made me feel this way,
it's I feel this way. Butthen step five is focusing on the facts
of the situation. So the rightway is I and then when right I
(25:08):
feel this way when you do this, and it's not about labeling you and
saying like you're you know, you'rejust a prick, like when you when
you forget to call me at night, you're being an asshole. It's completely
insensitive, like how could you dostuff like that? It's more like to
flip it, it's it's when youforget to call me at night, I
feel like I'm not a priority inyour life. It's actually using that moment
(25:30):
to present the fact and then thestate how that affects me personally. Yeah,
it's so funny because we had acouple that I was working with and
then seeing the I statements, youknow, the same example, like you
didn't call me when you you camehome late and out instead of like I
was upset because you didn't call andthen and you came home late, So
I was really upset and worried.Right, it was, I feel upset
(25:52):
because you were being a dumb assand you didn't even have the wherewithal to
have care for me, and thereforeI felt really angry and resemble. Like
it's just kind of weaponizing it,right as all people can kind of twist
those kind of healthy coping skills,but focusing on the facts using eye and
when that can be a very helpfultool in these moments for sure. Okay,
(26:14):
so if we were to go on, we have I believe this is
number sick. I mean, okay, number seven, because we have we
have our total list, right,Yes, Anthony's going to figure out how
to you know, edit this soit's like the correct numbers for each one.
There was ten. But now we'reon number seven and we skipped a
few some ways. So number seventhough is to take responsibility. So if
(26:37):
I made a mistake, I haveto take ownership and responsibility in that moment.
But this is I want to Iwant people to redefine what taking ownership
means, right, because one timepeople will be like, you know what,
something is wrong with me. Oh, I'm just I'm just bad,
or they'll label themselves as bad.It's not The truth is again, if
you're you have a version of yourself, it doesn't mean that it's not true.
But then if dwindles away when youstart getting more intimating your relationships,
(27:00):
right, So it's owning, like, you know what, maybe my pathologies
are worse than I thought. MaybeI need to validate those experiences and own
how it's bleeding out. Now you'reshowing self love to yourself and you're giving
yourself the understanding it actually needs.You're not trying to normalize something that actually
it wasn't normal and it's hurting youand it's hurting your relationships. Give it
(27:22):
that respect. Yes, And thereare like on a practical side, right,
I agree with you one thousand percenton a practical side in that moment
of a conversation where like you feellike you might be going towards defensiveness or
I feel like I might be goingSo if I said to you, like
you know what, like I feellike even if I approached it in the
wrong way, right, and Icome to you and I say, I
(27:42):
feel like you're being a dick,Like you didn't call me, you didn't
do this, and like that's notcool. Like there is a moment there
still where you could potentially diffuse itall by simply acknowledging, by simply taking
ownership over that. Yeah, Like, I'll give you an example. I'm
not gonna say the person because he'sa friend of but we hung out,
like me and my like some collegefriends. We hung out, and you
(28:03):
know, he's just not the mostsuccess with dating or women, right,
But in his mind he was like, I want you guys to know something,
and we're like yeah, okay,and he's like, comes, I
am not a player and we're likeno. But in his mind, his
version, I was like, hehad to present this version of himself because
underneath he was so insecure. Hefeels uncomfortable, he has a hard time
(28:25):
being vulnerable. But also this individualhad a very difficult childhood growing up,
and he had a lot of woundsand suffering and until the connection of dude,
you know, instead of like,oh it's it's her, or yeah
it didn't work out because they're weird, or I didn't like their job,
it's finally you know, it's mebecause I had so much pain, I
don't know how to deal with itwhen I start to feel feelings for other
(28:45):
people. And that was the shiftfor him, because he started being emotionally
honest. Yeah, that changes theway his friends would interact with him.
I would imagine as well, likewhen when you can actually acknowledge that,
that changes the dynamic of every Andthat's kind of the point, right when
there's ownership, when there's actual responsibilitytaken, it changes the dynamic in the
situation. Even if you approach mein a way that's that's uncomfortable, that's
(29:07):
not good communication. And I say, you know what, you're right.
I was kind of being a dickthere. Automatically your defense is lower two
because I'm acknowledging this. You're holdingspace. Yes, we're holding space for
like a mutual truth, like you'reright, yeah, And like with the
friend was so shocking to him hecouldn't speak, and then finally like he
could relax, like, Okay,you guys know, yeah we've we've known
(29:30):
for a while. Bro, It'sokay, we still love you man.
Right, So again it's that honestspace. Yeah, yeah, I want
to go to number nine. Thisone is. This one's a big piece
from basically the work that you've donealso your book. But trauma triggered therapy.
You've wrapped this kind of term upto well, I'm gonna let you
(29:51):
define it. Yeah. So traumais like you know, in traditional psychotherapy,
if you get too emotional, youcan't rationalize it away. Your emotions
are considered rational, right, Traumatrigger therapy says no, Actually, when
you have emotions that you can't rationalize, like you're just being triggered by something,
it's not irrational at all. It'syour wounds coming out these relationships like
a signpost that you can use toactually heal. And again we be tied
(30:12):
all together. It comes from thephysiology, It comes from your nervous system,
It comes from your attachment wounds,It comes from your coping skills of
trying to normalize things and it actuallyhas credence and validation for you in terms
of what you need to do inyour relationships moving forward. Yeah, I
love the approach because it's it's incrediblyempowering, right as opposed to, like,
as opposed to what do we oftendo when it comes to being triggered.
(30:34):
We try to control external you know, like I'm I'm gonna change the
way that you talk to me.I'm going to tell you that if you
say this, then you're going totrigger me. If you do this,
then this is going to happen.And I'm going to remove myself from situations,
which which does nothing. It actuallymakes it even worse. But instead
you're kind of using that trigger pointas that road sign of like no,
(30:55):
that that actually indicates personal work.And the best, in my mind,
the best way to know when you'relike kind of triggered by a pass wound,
this pass bruise that's just sensitive tothe touch, is like when your
reaction goes far beyond what the momentmerits exactly right, because it's like,
man, did nothing really bad happened, but I feel so strong again,
that's your trauma trigger coming out.It's an opportunity to heal Yeah, opportunity
(31:19):
to take ownership is well, takeownership, and then again you're instead of
you know, a lot of peopleexternally they seek intimacy, right connection and
to be real and then oh Ifound the love of my life or whatever
the case may be. Right,But when you're owning your triggers, you're
being so authentically emotional with yourself.Now you're opening yourself up to actually have
honest and intimate relationships. Yeah,totally, okay, last step, you
(31:42):
saw the numbers. Seek feedback.Seek feedback, so listen to the feedback
and even if you don't agree,try to hear that person's perspective, because
it's not about right or wrong asmuch as each person just wants to be
understood. And when there's understanding theright or wrong or who's the moral authority,
all that starts to go away,and it's just we just both want
(32:02):
to be accepted for who we are. Bottom line. Bottom line, I
have nothing to add and I couldn'tsit it better, So I love it.
This hopefully was insightful for everybody thatis watching or listening to the podcast,
and we'd love to know your thoughts. So if you guys are watching
on YouTube, you gauys can leavecomments. As you can see, we
read them and we will address things. But in the meantime, what we'd
(32:29):
love is you guys can actually jointhe newsletter for twelve relationships. It's each
week we basically send out just nicetips and insights. They're handwritten messages from
dot gunn and myself. Well,if I'm honest, I'm usually but it's
from Pie. They're from both ofus. They're from both of our work,
although I'm the one that's generating theemails, correct. But yeah,
inside of that, we also talkabout like our programs. From time to
(32:50):
time, we do enrollments and whatnot, and so yeah, we'd love to
see you guys inside of the newsletter. We promise only value and hopefully we'll
see you inside of our programs,whether it's a intensive or one on one
coaching. You guys can find linksfor that as well in description of the
video. That's it for today.Awesome, Thank you guys. Please take care,
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