Communication | TNG 2.5, "Loud as a Whisper" | T7R #237 - The 7th Rule -- A Star Trek Podcast with DS9's Cirroc Lofton

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi, everybody. We'd like toaddress the current sag After strike and how
it affects our show. When thisstrike began, we contacted our sag After
representatives and we were able to proceed, given the green light twice to review
and critique episodes. Sag Aftra hasrepeatedly instructed us to honor pre existing contracts,

(00:22):
so we will continue to do so. There are a couple of aspects
that we will adjust and or pauseto show solidarity with the union. Rest
assured that we will continue to monitorthe situation. We stand in solidarity with
sag Aftra and the WGA. Thankyou. The Enterprise has been rerouted to

(00:45):
the Ramatists Star System. Picard callsRiker a mother hen and the House of
hanover all had hemophilia. Hello everybody, and welcome to the Seventh Roll with
sirok Lofton. Hello. Hello,my name is Ryan T. Houskin.
Today we're doing a review of TheNext Generation season two episode five, Loud

(01:08):
as a Whisper, written by JacquelineZambrano, directed by Larry Shaw. This
was January seventh, nineteen eighty nine. Finally into nineteen eighty nine, Sarrock,

(01:29):
what's up? We didn't. We'vemoved into nineteen eighty nine television triumphantly.
How are you? Yeah, I'mgood. We're about to get out
of these eighties really soon. Yeah. So I was looking and it seemed

(01:51):
like there was a three week hiatus, which feels like it's probably standard,
right when you were going Deep Spacenine, three week hiatus for the holidays,
because the last episode was December tenth, so that's four weeks in between,
but obviously one week they are stillworking, So it's a three week
hiatus that they probably had from Decembertenth to January first or whatever like that,

(02:16):
which is sounds like it was standard, right, You guys would get
two or three weeks. Yeah.Around the holiday time, the whole business
is shut down, so all ofthe thing, the agencies are shut down,
nobody's casting for anything, so youknow, it's the time that everybody
goes away for the holidays. Hereis an important thing about this specific episode

(02:43):
that I didn't know until recently.Marnie Massiman played the character Harmony, who
was this lady in Riva's chorus.She is John Delancy's wife. Oh what
what let that sink in? Idon't think a lot of people realized that

(03:07):
John Delancey's wife is an actress andshe was in Star Trek The Next Generation.
That's her what that's crazy. Theywere already married at the time or
they met on the show that Idon't know that. I don't know how
long they've been married. But that'sjust an interesting little tidbit there, and

(03:34):
which I felt like her character deservedmore lines, you know, because in
the beginning she talked a little bit, and then I think she said she
was the harmony and the wisdom andbalance, and then she didn't talk that
much. Sometimes I guess this guydoesn't have much harmony and balance. It
is this, you know, whatI thought was weird, And of course

(03:55):
this is different cultures, different aliens, so we you know, whatever,
they're different. I just thought itwas weird how they divvied out the roles,
right, Like the one guy islike, I'm the scholar, I
know things, and I'm super smart, and I'm this and that, and
the other two were kind of likehe's like, I'm the libido, I'm

(04:16):
like okay and that really and she'slike and I'm the you know, the
balance between the two. Oh,okay, I guess, but it feels
like the one guy got as mostof the work to do and the other
two are just hanging on. Andthen they tried to give more to libido
guy by bringing him in with Troy. And I don't know if you want

(04:36):
to talk about that right now,but at the end of my notes,
I just put that entire weird romancething was completely unnecessary and irrelevant. I
could tell I could see if likeit's part of the plot, it's necessary
for the story, but I thoughtthere was absolutely no reason for them to

(04:56):
have a romantic dinner or sexual andhe was like, dude, sorry,
I got too much to say aboutthis. Yeah, that's just when he
started saying, when he started sayinglike, let it flow you through you
and touch every part of your body. And I'm trying to find exactly what

(05:20):
he said, because I was like, dude, calm the down man.
Do you remember you remember what I'mtalking about when they were in that date
set together in the room. Yeah, yeah, it was super awkward in
that Yeah, exactly. Yeah,he said he said it moves. He

(05:45):
said mentioned the sound of the ship, and then he says, it moves
throughout my entire body. Sometimes wemust allow the surroundings to flow over us,
to dwell on each separate part howit feels to allow it to fill
you. I was like, you, dude, because a shower, you

(06:09):
need a cold shower, sonic showerthat is. I don't know, man,
maybe I read too much into it. No, my notes, I
didn't like that either. I said, Reva's bedroom must be crowded. So
I just felt like I could justimagine you hook up with him and this

(06:31):
one guy says, who's your daddy? You know? And another guy's like,
I really love you, and shesays I met peace within the moment.
It would be the weirdest thing.Do happy Do they need to disrobe
when he disrobes too, you know, like like if he starts to,

(06:55):
you know, take off his jacket, are they like, oh, showing
some shoulder and stuff to to communicatethat they're doing themselves. Yeah. Now,
not only that, but I wasthinking, also, what are these
people's identity? What do they haveto say about anything? Like do they

(07:17):
have their own identity right there?Are they just a vessel for his communication,
like, you know, as opposedto being interpreters who also have their
own identity and their own thoughts aboutthings, but they communicate on his beath.
They felt like completely empty vessels whohad nothing to say other than what

(07:41):
he has to say. That's exactlyit. I don't believe they ever broke
character and were themselves for a minuteand actually said who they who they actually
are, not who they are withrespect to Reva the com anchor or here
the dominant one. I mean thatsounds like slavery, Like they don't even

(08:05):
have an identity. They don't havethey don't do anything. They just do
whatever this guy tells it. Itwould have been at least nice for,
say the lady to break character andsay, oh, my name's harmony.
It looks like they can take careof it from here, a commander Riker,
would you join me for a drink, you know at you know,
ten Ford, and I could tellyou about our planet. That'd be cool,

(08:28):
right, because then we can learnmore about these people and then it's
just a job or a passion ratherthan their existence. They exist for this
guy, it's a little weird.Yeah. And so when you don't give
them an identity and they just becomebasically muppets for hidden, then I don't

(08:50):
feel a connection when they're low,when they're killed. I don't know.
I'm just picturing you watching this episode. I bet you. I'm picturing you
watch this episode, and you're like, about twenty minutes in, you were
kind of going like yeah, yeah, like like I think I may have
enjoyed this episode more than you did. Still not terribly high on it.

(09:15):
But for me, there were somethere were some aspects that were super smart
and super interesting and others that werejust not. Like, for example,
just the idea of a deaf personand the three interpreters or just people that
speak for a leader in three days. I mean, that's a brilliant idea.

(09:39):
It's very smart, it's very cool. It's never been done before to
my knowledge. I really enjoyed thatconcept. But then why do I have
so many issues with this episode,because because I do have Yeah, I
really despised this episode. I despisedYou've never used that word. No.

(10:05):
I was looking for a nugget somewhere, but I couldn't find it. I
just couldn't find it. I'm thinking, what is the point of this.
I you know, there's got tobe a bigger meaning here. I was
confused because they said they said hewas deaf, which should have, which
is, you know, a relativelycommon thing in the world, So to

(10:30):
react to it as if you've encounteredan alien thing is kind of ridiculous to
me. It's like, Okay,this is this has been done before we
figured out how to communicate with deafpeople, so that I think he may
have missed a couple of lines.What it was that they were They were
bothered mostly by his hair. Itwas if they thought it they thought at

(10:52):
first they thought they were talking toMichael McDonald. Anybody who knows Michael McDonald
and here's the car that sings likethere's the guy that regulators sampled. Yeah,
now, because that was the thing. It was like in the beginning,

(11:13):
I was under the impression that hecould hear or he had some type
of telepathy, right, because itseemed as if he was communicating with Troy
in the beginning without talking. That'swhat I thought. It felt like they
were having this conversation just the twoof them through telepathy. So I was

(11:35):
confused with that. I was confusedwith the fact that he would even know
a sign language when he uses thesepeople to interpret his thoughts for him.
So where would the development of theskill of sign language be even implemented on

(12:00):
his planet somewhere, so that tome even didn't just lie. And I
was like, well, if signlanguage is the answer, then why didn't
we just you know, we couldhave done this a long time ago.
Universal translators got to have something forthis, and and if we can do
dermal regeneration, then I'm pretty surewe can fix hearing loss. So I

(12:24):
just thought the same. Well,okay, so here's the thing. Well,
first of all, I mean,they're they're aliens, so maybe they
can't deal with the hearing loss,or maybe they don't want to. I
don't know, but it does feellike, look, this is still during
the writers strike, I believe soalmost. I feel like almost this entire
season is going to have that caveat. And I noticed there was only one

(12:46):
writer. I feel like this mayhave benefited from having a second pair of
eyes looking at it and just kindof saying this doesn't necessarily work. Maybe
it was a rush job. Idon't really know too much about the ins
and outs there. I don't recognizethe name of the writer. Maybe this
is her only episode. But yousaid you wanted one nugget as to why
they would do this, Well,because this actor, the main actor,

(13:07):
Riva, as you may have guessed, is actually deaf in real life,
and he is one of the mostfamous and working deaf actors, or was
at the time in Hollywood, andhe had been pushing Star Trek to do
a deaf episode. So this episode, it seems like this episode was written

(13:30):
kind of with him in mind orfor him, and that's where they get
the enormous applause. Doing what StarTrek does best, which is bringing in,
bringing in groups that aren't necessarily asprevalent in Hollywood movies, and being

(13:52):
the first to do it, youknow, bringing in a deaf actor at
the end of nineteen eighty eight andthe beginning of nineteen eighty nine to portray
a character. It is very progressiveof them and very inclusive of them,
and they get the major kudos forthat. I just only wish they'd taken
one more pass of that script thatthey But the intention is a plus.

(14:13):
The execution is maybe less. Yeah, when I watched these episodes and they're
terrible, I often think about whatI could adjust in this episode to make
it feel better for me. Andso, you know, as we're having
this conversation, one of the thingsthat I think about is it would have

(14:35):
been nice had this Riva character comeaboard the ship and for example, as
he's being greeted by the captain andeveryone, when he touches them or does
some kind of contact with them,they become death as well. And then
that would have put the crew ina situation in where the captain's death,

(14:58):
he can't hear, and he's tryingto cope with this, and maybe those
same aliens that can talk for himalso have the ability to talk for whoever
becomes deaf, like the captain orwhatnot, and then we have an issue.
It'd be more interesting for me.It would be a lot more interesting
if the characters that we know areput into some kind of peril or some

(15:20):
kind of situation that's unusual for them. I would have liked to see maybe
Warf become deaf in this episode.It would have been something to playoff something
more. And maybe this actor whowanted to have this storyline being portrayed could
have been somebody who's walking a newentrance and a new person who's entering into

(15:41):
the deaf community and walking them throughthose steps of trying to cope with your
disability. And communicate, and therecould have been something there. I would
have liked to watch him try toreach out to Riker or Warf or somebody

(16:02):
and try to, you know,make that kind of communication. You know,
that's a really interesting spin. Andthen that way instead of that weird,
basically unnecessarily nonsensical b plot of theone scene of Jordy with Pulaski,

(16:22):
Like, I just look back lookingback at that, what was that scene
is at a B plot? Onescene does not make a B plot.
You can't do a B plot injust one scene. I mean, it
was interesting, it was cool,but there was no reason for it.
And so what I'm thinking is howmuch better would have been if, say,
for example, he makes somebody elsedeaf and they are trying to work

(16:45):
their way through it, and whodo they turn to? Jordy? Jordi
says, Look, I know it'snot easy not being able to do things
that other people can do, Andthis is how I cope. This is
how you know. That could havebeen a bet. That could have been
a great use of Jordy and hisdisability. Uh, this Plaski thing was

(17:06):
very confused, like it was therandom ist seed out of out of there,
and and not only was it random, but it also revisited a subject
matter that we had already talked about, and they left it. They left
it on a cliffhanger too. He'slike, let me think about it,
Evan, that was it. Yeah, But but this, this idea came
up with Q was a que orwhen when he was given his sight back

(17:32):
in that episode right and uh Crusherwas made Will was made into an adult
and they both rejected. They wereboth rejected those ideas. They're like,
no, I don't want to bealtered. I want to be the way
I am. And Jordy made awhole great speech about how he wanted to

(17:56):
be the way he was, Hedidn't want to be artificially given these kinds
of abilities. So I just feltlike we already were visited that topic.
I thought LaVar gave a great performancewhen it comes to dealing with his you
know visor and what it means tohim and how he's attached to you know,

(18:17):
the experience that he's had with it. I felt like it was a
very randomly inserted scene into an alreadyrandomly occurring episode. So I was lost
throughout the whole thing. I mean, I understood it. I just didn't
like it. Yeah, there weresome things I did like, I don't

(18:42):
know. I thought it was okayoverall, Like I barely remember this one.
I feel like I had seen itbefore. When the three of them
starts speaking for him, I waslike, oh, I think I remember
this. Wait, let me seeif I can get that guy's hair.
But one thing I did notice,and I didn't notice this while we were

(19:03):
watching it, but when I checkedthe IMDb and I saw the name Randy
Oglesby, and I was like,oh shit, that's this guy. Randy
Oglesby I recognize as the name ofan actor who was in Star Trek Enterprise
for an entire season. I thinkhe played like in nine, ten,

(19:25):
eleven, twelve episodes as Degra theZendi. I didn't I had no idea
that he played this, and Idon't really recognize him because this is,
you know, fifteen years prior,and he doesn't have like the Zendie makeup
on. But when you look closely, I'm like, Okay, I could
see it, but I only recognizethe name. So Randy Oglesby, this
guy the Scholar really really good.One of my favorite characters from Enterprise just

(19:51):
a very beloved, cool, awesomecharacter. But he definitely had to pay
his dues first. He definitely hadto come in and be the scholar first
and earn it. But I believethat's about how many episodes it was.
Yeah, check, m hm.You know what I did like though,

(20:14):
is I kind of liked that littlegraphics, so small thing, but there
was a graphic inside of Picard's deskwhere he was trying to figure out the
the awkward orbit of this planet.Yeah. I didn't know what that had
to do with anything, but Idid like, I liked the graphic.

(20:36):
I'm really pulled here. I gotta, I gotta, I was I was
trying to figure out. Okay,So first Randy Oglesby was in season one,
episode five of Enterprise. He playeda character named Trenal and unexpected.
I don't remember that. But thenhe came back in season three and played

(20:56):
DeGraf for ten episodes throughout the entiresIndie arc. So that's three characters he's
played in Star Trek. But anyway, oh four he also played a character
named ker Kai are just kind oflike the beverage if you've ever heard of
a ker, which is kind oflike a Mimosa, but I believe it's

(21:17):
with peach schnops if I remember correctly, instead of orange juice. That's a
Ker. So. He played acharacter named Ker in Star Trek Voyager season
five, episode ten counter point.I don't remember that one either. I
remember the episode, I don't rememberthe character and whoa. He also played
two characters in Deep Space nine ThisGuy's Everywhere, No wonder I recognized the

(21:38):
name. In season one of DeepSpace nine, episode eleven, he played
Roquel Akell Roquel and Akell in theepisode entitled four Techs. And then in
season five of Deep Space nine,he played Salarin. In the Darkness and

(22:03):
the Light was that the evil Kardassianthe kidnapped Kira, Remember the evil Kardassian.
They had like scarred face, thatkidnapped she killed him. That was
that episode, The Darkness in theLight. I wonder if that would Wow.

(22:23):
I did not realize that. Yeah, yeah, this guy will show
you he liked or maybe Kira tookthe shuttlecraft to go kill this guy and
he ends up capturing her. Ohyeah yeah with the scardup face, but
then she ended up killing him orsomething like that. Wow, I didn't
realize this guy's freaking everywhere. He'sbeen a voyager next Generation two episodes of

(22:49):
Deep Space nine and two characters ineleven episodes of Enterprise, but he made
a start as boring ass scholar.Good job. Pretty cool. That's a
that's That's one of the things thatis kind of a good thing about Star

(23:10):
Trek because you can come back somany different times in so many different ways.
We just saw that with with theBruce Horrak being brought back, you
know. So there's all types ofways where you know, characters get revisited
and recycled, and the good partis you don't even notice. You don't
even notice it unless you really noticeit. Yeah. Boy, So that

(23:37):
was a shining beacon for me.Yeah, that was That was one of
your highlights Oglesby Yeah, I mean, I'm mostly kidding. I clearly liked
this episode more than you did,which is I was pretty medium on it.
Uh. I thought it had greatideas. But you know, let's

(24:00):
take our break, rehydrate, goon a slipping it's really hot here in
La Go on a slipping slide,uh, and we'll talk. I'll talk
more about some highlights that I hadand some negatives that I saw and Sirok
is gonna like point out some andhe's gonna struggle to find highlights. He's

(24:23):
I got a few. I've gota couple. I gotta yeah. Wow,
that's pretty good. All right,we'll take it. So everybody stick
around. This is gonna get wackyand wild. We'll be right back on
the seventh Rule. Well, hithere, everybody, welcome back to the
seventh Rule with Sarrok freaking lofton.Hello, Hello, my name is Ryan

(24:47):
T. Husk. Here come thetrivioids of the week. Not a ton.
The enterprise has been rerouted to theRamatis star system. The card tells
Riker or calls Riker a mother.Hen Remember he says cook, cluck cluck
number one. He's like, calmeddown. The card thank you was a
little over the top, right.Uh Va negotiated several treaties between the Klingons

(25:11):
and the Federation. Before Riva,there was no clingon word for peacemaker.
The House of hanover all had hemophilia. The ruling house on Fendo's five were
without limbs. The factions on Slaasfive are historical enemies. The Lerons of
Malchus nine are an exception, beingthat they developed a written language before hand,

(25:37):
gestures, ah, that see welearned what a what a thing?
So here was a highlight for me, but it was also a negative.
We're walking walking along through this episodeabout a third of the way through,
and suddenly my face lights up.The episode lights up, and I'm filled

(26:00):
with joy because there is Chief O'Brien. I'm super happy to see him,
and like it brings me immediate joy. I'm like, whoa Chief O'Brien?
Awesome, you know, like itmakes us happy because we know what he
becomes and he's such a beloved characterand a cool actor. And then they
transport away and I passed it.I was like, wait, did he

(26:22):
not have any lines? Did theynot even say his name? He was
a background actor? And then atthe end there he is again, Chief
O'Brien, and I'm paying a betterattention. Still no lines, they don't
even say his name, they don'teven say energized Chief or thanks Chief.

(26:45):
They just said he only said oneline, which was the first time Ryker
just they just transport. He justsays, you know, the guy says
we won't need those weapons, andhe says, we'll see and then they
energize away. He doesn't even acknowledgeO'Brian's second time, he says energized.
They don't say his name and hehas no lines. I'm like, is

(27:06):
that some kind of contractual thing wherethey're like, well, we could get
away with paying them only seventy dollarstoday if we don't say his name and
he doesn't have any lines. Well, that made me a little sad.
I was happy to see him,though clearly he hasn't like he's not as

(27:27):
big as a star as he waswhen I was working with him, because
there's no way a star as bigas he became would end up having such
a small role in this show.So that's kind of the irony there when
I watch it. But the otherday I did a you know, interview

(27:49):
with Larry Nemichik, and he actuallybrought some emails that were sent between Roddenberry
and some of the producers, andone of the things that was described in
the email was Jean had gone toa convention somewhere in Maryland and the person

(28:14):
whoever spoke with him brought it tohis attention that they needed more latinos on
screen, and so he made anote of that and actually forwarded it forward
to the rest of his writing teamto kind of say, hey, you
know what, it was brought tomy attention, and since that's a large

(28:36):
demographic of people, it makes sensethat we would have representation on the show.
But included in that email was alsoa person referencing how much they liked
this guy O'Brien in the background andthey wanted to see more of him.
And so I'm thinking that his rolegrew based upon the fans request to see

(29:00):
more of it. That's amazing.And so now as when you were telling
that story, I was trying torack my brain and think, did we
see more Latinos starting then? Imean, at this point they've already got
the the cast locked. Do weknow you said it was around eighty eight
or eight eighty nine, eighty nine, Yeah, around this will be okay,

(29:21):
So we're talking about maybe the beginning, well this is starting eighty nine.
So now that you know, they'realready shooting their record, so probably
hopefully by the beginning of season three, we're going to see a change.
You know, we're going to seea little bit more representation there, and
that, you know, I hopewe remember to check for that in a
few months, because that's a reallyimportant thing. And that's really cool that

(29:45):
Gene Roddenberry, the Great Bird ofthe Galaxy, is sitting there talking to
fans and actually listening in and goinghuh okay, like actually listening, not
just being like, Okay, thanks, what was your name? Okay,
Bill, great Bill? Here yougo see a thanks. Oh yeah,
we'll get right on that. Buthe's actually taken that seriously. That's really
great to know. And O'Brien,Yeah, because O'Brien had his biggest moments

(30:11):
in the first episode. Remember inthe pilot, he had lines, he
had a defined type of character,he had a role, and then after
that they're like are you available.He's like, hell, yeah, I'm
available to come back. They're like, all right, your background you're well
your foreground. But I know,I'm pretty sure he didn't get paid like
a background actor. I'm pretty surethere's a scale above that. Yeah,

(30:33):
he'd probably like I think it wouldbe called featured. Okay, featured.
You know, then it's kind oflike a slightly higher rate because you know,
maybe one of the main characters isinteracting with him, and he does
have a name, he has aname. Character but yeah, I mean
it's you know, yeah, littledid they know he would go on to

(30:57):
become such a big star. Theyprobably would have used him even more had
they known that. But yeah,it's always good for me when I see
him, because you know, I'mwaiting for him to say something because he's
and I'm waiting for his humor becausehe always has that. I hate this
job humor and I'm looking for itin these scenes. But he doesn't have

(31:21):
it. He's not given the opportunity. But did you see Data's walk when
he walked up to the Captain's chairwhen in the beginning when the card gives
him the bridge, Data, youhave the bridge, and he does like
a little saunter, A little saunterexactly, that's exactly the word. Yeah,
he just goes like, well nowit's my moment, captain walk.

(31:47):
Like, I'm like, how manysteps can you take from your secret captains
share? He sure milked that thing, right, he did. He's milked
that walk hard. It was likea slow train dance line. I was
like, wow, over here,he really trained reference. Yeah, he
getted George Jefferson walk up to theto the Captain's jan I'm like okay,
Data, that's a that's a lotof personality for your robotic self. Yeah,

(32:14):
that was funny. I did likethe moment when Riva goes in first
meets Data and he puts his handon his chest and he's kind of like
trying to scan for like a heartor something, realizes there's nothing there.
Were you doing this when my firstthought was that's not going to work on
all the crew bro, Like whenhe put his hand on the chap,

(32:35):
like, I immediately kind of halfwaypanicked for him, like, dude,
you that's not you can't just youknow, you can be like, oh
Data, okay, sturdy chest.Oh Ryker, Mmm okay, sturdy chest.
Danna thank you, I'm an EmPATH. I'll send you my fittings from
Afar. He's just But then withbut then with Jordy, he goes like

(33:00):
this with him, which actually waskind of cool that it was nice to
know because they were both sharing informationon their disabilities. But I did kind
of get nervous for that first second. Yeah. Yeah, but it was
a nice little move how he kindof recognized Data was not human just through

(33:22):
that kind of he showed us thatthrough that kind of communication in the hand
ryker said something that I thought wasinteresting to hear because it's a theme that
I've heard in regards to the UnitedStates and how it operates as a global

(33:45):
superpower. And the thing that hesays is our job is not to police
the galaxy. And he makes thatassessment, and the card agrees with it,
like, yes, you're right,number one minute, and they kind
of move forward. But the ideaof policing the world the galaxy, you

(34:07):
know, I thought that was interestingthat they brought this up in nineteen eighty
nine, because I don't know ifthis was a theme that was being used
as much as I've heard it beforein regards to the responsibility that the United
States has as a superpower to makesure how it intervenes and global affairs and

(34:29):
how it, you know, assertsits dominance. And one of the things
that I've heard in regards to thatis our job is not to police you
know, the world or the galaxy. So I do think that was an
interesting just idea that was kind ofbriefly scribbled into this, but it's something
that has had staying power as faras ideal wise. Yeah, the US

(34:55):
definitely tries to police the world Idon't if it was more so or less
so in eighty nine. Obviously therewas the USA and there was Communist USSR,
and they were both, you know, vying for supremacy there. But
so that's was pretty timely at thatpoint in nineteen eighty nine to talk about

(35:17):
that kind of stuff. They didmake a couple other interesting points on that,
and I don't remember exactly what itwas I got at my nose,
but basically they're saying, like,hey, you know, let's help these
guys make peace. The weird thingwas these guys had been at war for
fifteen centuries, one thousand, fivehundred years, what But that was mind

(35:47):
blowing. But then he made thegood point of if they're contacting us,
something has changed, like clearly they'refinally ready for peace for whatever reason,
which you know, thank goodness,because they said they had just about everybody
dead by then. That's why theyBecause I was like, I really brought
two people on each side, butthat's begin they called them emissaries. I

(36:10):
was like, watch your mouth,don't induce that that words for special people,
not for these cavemen. But yeah, I did put in my notes
at one point I put I missedTasha Yar And it was right after Picard

(36:30):
says to Ryker cluck cluck cluck numberone, which I don't know why,
but right after that I just thoughtI was like, I missed Tasha Yar.
I miss I missed the all businesskind of character. But you know,
like, I don't know what what'sgoing on with Picard. In season
one, he was all business andhe was super tough, and now two

(36:52):
or three times in the second seasonalready he's kind of like breaking character and
just being like silly and light hearted, and it was just kind of weird.
You know, I don't know,how do you feel about it?
Do you like him being a littlebit more lighthearted than before? Only in
certain moments. I only liked itwhen, for example, at the end,

(37:13):
when he tells Deanna Troy thank you. Yeah, that's that's him being
more likable to me and kind ofappreciating his crew and what they offer to
the equation. But I don't likeit when he's being comical in moments where
it doesn't require a comedy like thatparticular one, He's actually funnier when he's

(37:37):
not trying to be funny, Andit's the same as data. It's like,
when he's not trying to be funny, it's he's funnier, but when
he's trying to be when he's tellingyou a joke, it's not as funny
to listen to the joke, right, And I think Picard is the same
way. The other thing I likedis when I did like Piccard when he

(37:59):
was more in character during this moment. But he did go a little bit
higher on his emotional scale when hewas talking to Riva about you know,
when he says you're not alone,we are all in this together now,
and he kind of grabs his handand he's trying to verbalize to him that
you know, we've got your back, or something to that effect. He

(38:20):
did have a lot more passion inthat particular scene, which I like those
moments when he chooses to do it. I just don't like the comedy there.
You know that cluck cluck cluck.I wrote down in my line,
come on, that's the point.Yeah. But now I do want to
reiterate because I'm kind of starting toI'm formulating my thoughts more on Deanna Troy's

(38:47):
role, because you know, we'vewe've discussed before about how it seems like
with the addition of Guynan, we'realmost doubling up on the same type of
character, the counselor type character.So I'm hoping to see Diana Troy be
used in a slightly different way,like not just counselor but also in diplomatic

(39:09):
missions and counseling the captain, whichis what they were doing in this episode.
Great, so we're getting that tobuild a little separation between the two
characters where we can see the differencesand the usefulnesses of each But I feel
like they gave her such a hugedisservice by forcing in this romantic aspect of
it. Why can't she be thisgreat, valuable member of the crew talk

(39:37):
to this guy professionally as an adult, as a counselor, as a diplomat,
you know, as a medical professional, as an EmPATH, without having
to cram in like these sexual innuendoand then the guy kisses her and she's
falling, like, we don't againif it paid off at the end,

(40:00):
cool, fine, you know that'sone of those episodes. But there was
no payoff. It was just itwas just inserted in there as if they
the writers or producers assumed that weas the viewers needed this, we needed
we need to see a romantic somethinglike I don't know, I don't know
why I'm so bothered by that,but I'm like, it's it's so unnecessary.

(40:22):
Let her be a professional doing whatshe does well and showing how her
character is necessary to this crew.And instead they blew five to seven minutes
on something completely unnecessary and even adisservice. I thought, I don't know,
it's just it's just kind of awaste to me. Yeah, And

(40:46):
we're seeing this theme kind of popitself up and now so far in this
first season and a half or whateverof the nixt generation, the sexualization of
one of the GAST members, it'sgot to be Tasha yar Are one instance.
It was Pulaski in the in thein one episode not too long ago,

(41:07):
in the Sherlock Holmes episode where theymade those kinds of references about her.
Well, there's a big that's becausethere's a giant Pulaski fan group,
like a very where people are justcrushing over her. And I'm just kidding,
I don't know, that's no,it's but it's the it's the sign

(41:29):
of the chauvinism of the time.In my opinion, it's like it's almost
every time they did it. Theydid it with the the you know,
the Robin Hood character who came onthe ship and was flirtatious with everybody that
Ryker was jealous of, the oconomguy. Yeah, O'Connor, Yeah,
the outrageous o'conno. So as soonas he came on, he was kind

(41:51):
of looking lustfully at Troy, andshe was looking lustfully back at him,
like as if you know, there'sthis huge void and she's waiting for the
Prince I mean to come. That'sthe issue there. For me. It's
like, okay, fine, someguy comes on and he that's his character,
that's his type. But why doesTroy have to fall for it every
time? Why can't you Why can'tshe just be like, oh no,

(42:13):
thanks, bro, I'm working rightnow. I'm being nice to you because
it's my job, you know,Like I can understand that. Yeah,
this pirate guy he goes around.Well, the issue is like, why
does they have to work on herevery time? She doesn't need that,
Like, come on, she's abetter character than that. Yeah, they're
making her out to be like thedesperate housewife on this ship, and I

(42:37):
don't like it. It's not Andreally the other thing is for her skill
set, which is essentially reading people'sminds, emotions or whatever, she would
all always know what somebody's agenda iswhen they do approacher in such a kind
of way, So she would knowwho's genuinely in love with her, you

(43:01):
know, and who genuinely wants tobuild a long term future with her,
as opposed to who's looking at herlustfully in a kind of one night stand
type of way. And so shewould be able to distinguish that. And
she seems to you know, notbe concerned essentially with relationship building, which

(43:27):
she could be doing with Riker,which she could be doing with other characters.
It seems that they want to makeher this person that's you know,
oh, when somebody wants to hookup with somebody, will just throw her
in the mix. And they didthat with Tasha the season before this,
and so as somebody's got to bethe person that they use as a sexual
decoy or pawn in the moving ofthe story. And I just don't like

(43:51):
that. I think it's just it'svery simple. No, it's and it's
the side of the very chauvinistic timeswhere they they viewed women in these very
simple ways, And it feels likea right. It feels like a writing
crutch, Like it feels like theythink that the story needs it. They
think that the audience needs this.We don't. We don't need it.

(44:13):
I mean, I guess I can'treally speak to the nineteen eighty eight audience,
but it feels like they think thatthis has to be in every episode
otherwise we're gonna lose their attention.They're not gonna want to see it.
Now. I think we'll be fine, We'll enjoy the show for what it
is. But and and the wholething about the guy in there during their

(44:34):
dating, I was just like,how are these guys gonna hump? Is
he gonna be there like saying yes, I'm I'm very much enjoying this.
I'm yes, please do this.I like that. I like it when
you do it like that. Butthat was just I don't know, all
allow us to disrobe. But thereare a couple more quick things that I

(44:55):
wanted to point out that I reallydid. Like. One is the sign
language aspect. I don't know enoughabout asl American sign language or any sign
language to know if they were actuallyusing that. But regardless, I felt
like they must have brought on somekind of you know, sign language linguistic

(45:15):
expert, or maybe just this actorgentleman here served as out what is his
name? His name is? Well, I can't find it right now,
how we siago or how we seego. But they must have had somebody,
because clearly this was some kind ofThis wasn't just made up. It would

(45:38):
look really stupid if they're just like, okay, data, make something up,
just kind of do this, youknow, they don't want to like
make a mockery of it. Sothey must have brought on some kind of
expert that actually wrote some things outfor them. So that was one that
I thought was cool. And theother one was something I put in my
notes where I said, actually,that's very good. And it was towards

(46:00):
the end when Riva said, youknow, when they were going to do
the sign language and he's going toteach them. He said, they'll be
learning to communicate with each other,and so that's going to that's going to
bring them in. He says,while they're learning to communicate with with Riva
or no, it's Troy that said, while they're learning to communicate with Riva,

(46:21):
they'll be learning to communicate with eachother, which is and Reva said
that's the most important aspect of anyrelationship. I was like, Okay,
that's actually really good. That's athat's a very that was really good.
I thought that was beautiful, tobe honest, Yeah, I just couldn't
get into it. I actually thoughtI was looking to see if the sign

(46:45):
signing was consistent. For example,when when Riva was talking and then Data
would repeat something, I didn't seea consistency in the hand gestures in my
estimation, even when he said thatthe two happy people that are in love
are walking into the by the blueocean at sunset. Hey, by the

(47:10):
way, it's time for the homerun of the day, Strock. I
know you've got a lot of choicesto choose from here, but who gets
the home run of the day.I'm going to give the home run to
the Solaris aliens that they met onthe planet because they zapped those people away

(47:36):
and I wanted them to kill thewhole episode. So that was my That
was my tweet watching them get zappedaway. Thanks, thank you guys.
My home run of the day isto guest star Howe Siago or Seago however
you pronounced that, who played Riva, who was deaf in real life and

(47:58):
had in fact petition the producers tocreate an episode involving deaf people. So
you know, the home run ofthe day for me goes to the actual
actor more so than any you know, characters. Yeah, and with respect
to him as performance, I wantto say though, I did like the
way he was delivering facial expressions whenother people were talking. I thought that

(48:22):
was the best of his performance.When he got into the sign and stuff,
I wasn't as as happy about theperformance. I actually enjoyed him.
It's not easy to just match afacial expression with the words that somebody else
is saying as if it's coming fromyou, without using any of your hands
or anything. And I like thefaces that he was making, for example

(48:44):
the screenshot behind you. So hedid he did do a great performance.
With respect to that, I willsay that well, Sarrock before we hop
over to the free for all.Did you enjoy this episode? I'm gonna
say absolutely not. Oh I didnot enjoy this episode. I will not

(49:08):
try I will this is now Iunderstand when you guys say oh, I
usually skip over that this is,this is what this is in skip over
country. If this were peanut butter, it would be skippy. Well,
I'll tell you I enjoyed aspects ofit. I enjoyed the attempt. That's

(49:29):
about you know. That's that's whatI can put there. Look, this
is something that I do enjoy andit is for us to say thank you
and shout out to our friends.Homer Frazel, doctor Anne, Marie Siegel,
Eve England out in Wales. You'vegot Blackman, Tom t J.
Jackson, Bayott Missouri, Bill,Victor Rouken, who can Titus Moeller,

(49:53):
Darlina Marie, doctor Mohammed Nor Tierneyc Deepman on a post A, Neil
oh Platte, Joe Balseratti, MikeGoo, d Q, Neil Akasaka Saca,
Our Pal, Justine Norton, Kurtzand doctor Stephanie Baker, Carrie Schwent,
Faith Howell, Edward Foltz, MyLife from Tokyo, The Matt Boardman,

(50:17):
Chris McGee, Justin Weir, JakeBarrett, Jane Jorgenson, Henry Hunger,
Alison Leech Hide, Julie Manisfee,Marsha classic Schreyer and of course doctor
Susan V. Gruner and Jason theOutrageous Oaken. All right, everybody stick
around. We've got the Free forAll up next. I'm scared. We'll

(50:39):
be right back on the Seventh Rule. Hello, everybody, welcome back to
the Seventh Rule. It is thefree for all? Can you believe it?
Jason Oakin was not smiling the entiretime on the break, but as
soon as I hit record, hehad a big old SMA. He's like,
oh, I'm better. Look.Of course everybody knows. Rong Lofton

(51:00):
is here. Jason Oakin is here. The aforementioned Melissa Longo is here with
bones behind her. Yeah. Uh. Faith Howell is of course on the
Enterprise d Bridge. We've got mylive in Tokyo. Chris McGee, the
Dark Lord is laying low. Wego. Oh, that is a Republic.

(51:23):
That's right, very good? Yeah, so awesome. You can get
that shirt and Melissa's shirt at theIntroverted Republic dot com. Everybody, Uh,
Eve England is wearing a gigantic fontStar Trek shirt. It's the Star

(51:43):
Wars Star Wars Star Wars. Yea, yeah, Star Wars. You know
our friend refused. Over here,our friend Darth Shoey has the reverse.
He has uh like or no,not the reverse, but that same thing.
But it's like it looks like StarWars. But yeah, if you
look more closely at Star Trek kindof like that but a little smaller,

(52:05):
very cool shirt to fool the masses. Carrie Schwent is also here, looks
like the Enterprise on her shirt,and Allison Leech hide, Oh that's right,
another Star Trek shirt. Wow,that's a Star Trek represented. Surprisingly,
what in the academy? All right, everybody? Jake Cisco guesses the

(52:29):
IMDb score four point nine belt.The belt is a five. It was

(52:49):
at the bottom. Wow. SoSirock Lofton believes that IMDb voters gave it
a four point nine. What doyou guys thinking? Do you have any
I must even know them, Isaid, I thought it was five point
three point three mm hmm, probablyhigh to mid fives, maybe a little

(53:12):
six, not higher than that.But yeah, bay things, you guys
are all way off. It's one. Well, the answer, of course,
is a six point five. Everybodysix point five. Wow. It's

(53:36):
because of that scene behind Monis saidFundam, Absolutely, that was like back
to conspiracy Days. Well, MalisLongo, can you get us started on
the right track and tell everybody whatyou thought of this episode? I will
try. I'm learning that I havenot seen season two. I don't think

(53:57):
because this is the first time I'veseen this episode, and and I don't
think it's as terrible as a lotof people are alluding to there is.
I granted, there is some clunkinessto the episode, and that's yeah,

(54:19):
but there are some other aspects thatI really appreciated about the episode, besides
the wonderful group of gory bones.I love me some gore, except where
some yeah we won't talk about that, but no, but I appreciate what

(54:42):
they were trying to do with interms of exploring how different people communicate in
different ways with each other. Somepeople have certain strengths and in the way
they communicate, and having a deafperson and on and kind of rallying for

(55:02):
this episode is kind of an importantstep. And I think a lot of
the saying comes with the fact thatit's difficult to communicate with people who talk
differently for you than you. Soeverything is going to slow down, and

(55:22):
everything is going to take a littlebit longer to get cohesion, and I
think that came across very well inthis episode. We often don't have the
patients to learn language that is differentthan ours, and that includes American sign

(55:43):
language, which the guy was usingin this episode. So so I was
taking it from that perspective. Wewere learning a new language with the Star
Trek crew, and I liked that. And I also got that the parallels

(56:04):
of the chorus representing the Greek coursesfrom way back when, from like media
and Oedipus Rex and all of thatstuff, and it being the narrators as
you will, if you will,of the story, so and I thought
that was kind of an interesting additionto that as well. So I didn't

(56:27):
hate the episode. I thought itwas interesting. It was yeah, very
nice. Thank you very much,Melissa. First time Oedipus Rex has been
mentioned in this show. I believeFaith howl. What's up? She's wearing
her Deep Space nine captain shirt.What do you think of this episode?

(56:52):
So I already said I really likeit. I don't remember liking it that
much as a child, so definitelyI was watching it with eyes this time,
and definitely I was coming more froma perspective of having my own children,
one or both of which are predominantlynonverbal, and one who has hearing

(57:15):
aids and does some signing, andso I having that representation was kind of
cool. I don't know that itwas done as well as maybe it would
be today. I was kind oflooking to see if I recognize I'm very
far from fluent in any kind ofsign, but I was looking to see
if I recognized any of the signs, and they looked believable enough, But

(57:37):
I don't think it was real signlanguage at all. Even some of the
signs he did were clearly like itwas more so we the audience would understand
more than a true sign. I'mpretty sure, but there were I also
really liked the parallels with Jordy andhis visor and sort of the commentary on

(58:02):
just because it's not the way everyoneelse is, do we need to fix
it, and especially that when theyquantified twenty percent a less vision for him,
and yes, we saw a fewepisodes ago that his vision is crazy
and awesome and amazing, and soyou know, twenty percent less than that

(58:24):
might still be better than regular humans, but is it worth that loss?
And then if they regenerated his visionand he could see just like anyone,
he would lose all of that extracompletely and so it would actually be a
deficit for him based on what hehas now, other than maybe not having

(58:45):
the headaches that he struggling with.So I like that they put that in
there, and I like that he'schoosing to keep the visor because you know,
I know in the deaf community alot of people don't want to use
the cochlear implant and don't want touse hearing aids because it is an effort
that you have to expand to listenand process that information. So I thought

(59:09):
that was really interesting representation there.Wow, very nice perspective. Thank you,
Faith, And that's sort of afew of our questions that we had
during our review where Sirok was justbeaming about this episode, speaking of which
so is the outrageous Jason Oakin,Jason, how did you feel about this

(59:32):
episode? You love the directing?Oh? Absolutely, Actually, you know,
they did try to convene up,try to have a theme, but
overall, I frankly found the episodeboring. It was slow was sprouting,
and when it comes to directing,you know, one thing that directing can
can do is make something that perhapsit's not so exciting on the page,

(59:55):
look a little bit more exciting onthe screen. You know, I was
really full when the episode opened withsome rack focusing that would be something interesting
going on, and that was perhapsthe most interesting stuff done the entire episode.
The camera was stationary just frankly looksstatic. The script, you know,
the story is static. Everything isstatic and kind of boring. So,

(01:00:15):
you know, the execution wasn't exactlythe best. I mean, one
thing I would say, and I'venoticed this kind of looking at second season
episodes, is that they're interesting enough. Looking at the slightly earlier version of
the script, there's always been animprovement, believe it or not, No
matter how bad this looks, thescript was even worse. You know.

(01:00:37):
One of the things that you know, Faith talked about as the connection with
you know, Laforces a visor,and in the earlier version of the script,
that connection was a hell of alot stronger, and it actually made
a little bit more sense because Rivawas actually communicating through a device he war
on his head that malfunctioned on theplanet. There was there was there were
no bones, there was no gore. The device just malfunctioned. So that

(01:01:00):
was sort of the promise. Yeah, and that was the connection between Jordy's
visor technique using technology to cure handicap. And there was a scene at the
end of the episodes with Jordy andyou know, talking again about the fact
that what would it would involve tokind of see as as a regular human

(01:01:21):
being. So that kind of when, you know, when by the wayside
of the story, that's why itlooks a little disjointed, because it was
a remnant of the original script.It made a lot more sense in that
context, you know. And onething I've mentioned previously and some of these
episodes, what is this really about? Is it about any of our characters?
And I'm having a hard time figuringout if it is about anybody here.

(01:01:43):
It's certainly about the guest star.And typically the best episodes are not
about the guest star. It couldbe certainly a prominent sort of guest star
presence, but it's always involved somebodyelse. I mean, obviously, the
best que episodes are typically que andpiccard episodes you can have, you know,
obviously, when you know, whenwe had uh, you know,

(01:02:06):
elementary dear data, it's a dataepisode, and this is more akin to
the Outrager Zakona. It's it's abouta guest star and not about any of
our characters. I mean, there'sa little bit for Troy here, and
I think her attraction to ambassadors andnegotiators was done a little bit better in
the price. Not the greatest episodeon the planet, and gave rise to
one of the worst Voyager episodes andperhaps one of the worst episodes of Star

(01:02:29):
Trek. And you set the Ferengiback to the to the good old days.
But this this wasn't particularly you know, great. Yeah, there are
some other issues to pick here,and I'll just mention one. I mean,
these are supposedly aliens. I guesshe's so fluent in English he can
read lips. Yeah, good point. And there was some other things and

(01:02:53):
I'll talk about them later. Butoverall, again I just found this to
be a little bit slow and boring, and frankly, I started dozing off
this time around. Did you watchit at night? Not not that late,
you and Surag, but I youSarag was battling too. Look,

(01:03:15):
somebody that's never dozed off. Myis live in Tokyo. What's up,
my? What did you think ofthis episode? I thought the homage to
Barry GiB with the hairstyle was righton the money. That was perfect.
I thought the episode was like agame of tri dimensional chess based on an

(01:03:36):
ancient proverb by this gentleman Laotsu.It says, give a man a fish
and you feed him for a day. Teach the man a fish, and
you feed him for a lifetime.And on the first level, way of
Riva's chorus giving him the ability tospeak right, and the second level we've
got Riva giving two opposing party's abilityto communicate with each other. And then
on the third level we've got Rivalearning to teach communication at the end using

(01:03:59):
the sign language that he once learnedbut set aside in favor of the chorus.
So I thought that was kind ofan interesting thing. I think Reeve's
kind of like a metaphor for ayoung adult becoming a wiser adult or maybe
apparent as she learns that she cando it herself and creatively find an alternative.
I also found the chorus to bea bit of a crutch, and
the message there seems to be whenyou rely on others to say what needs

(01:04:23):
to be said, you're commuting lesswell communicating less well then if you do
it yourself, albeit perhaps less eloquently, and maybe a message to the shy
or the interviewed, there is hopeif you can somehow see it. But
I think I think that the referenceto give amount of fish was definitely what
I took away from this entire episode. Very good point. Thank you very

(01:04:45):
much. My good stuff there allowedto the art of war, if I
remember correctly. Different, one thatwas similar. One that was sun suit
sun suit, thank you. Oha loud suit that yeah, got it.
Okay, thank you very much.They're very good. Thank you.
Look Chris McGee, Chris McGee ishere and he's gonna quote his favorite philosopher.

(01:05:10):
Two. Yeah, I think that'sprobably about too. I'm sure I'm
not going to quote anything because Idon't. I'm win the number one that
my said because that's she just saidit. So uh yeah, this episode,
I agree with Jason. Yet's veryslow, very quiet episode. Even
at the end of the teaser,you know, before the break it there's

(01:05:32):
nothing note for Matt drama or anything. It's just a slow pan across an
empty room. And that just seemedreally an interesting decision, Let's put it
that way. By the by theDP and I found it interesting. Okay,
let me ask a question here.You probably have already discussed this in
the previous segments. How many ofus here are showbahands no asl American sign

(01:05:54):
language? Anyone a little bit?Unfortunately, don't know any I just recently
learned, like a few years ago, that signingly just more than just the
hand gestures. There's also a lotof the emotional facial expressions that go into
conveying your meaning. Maybe that's partof another reason why Data wouldn't be the

(01:06:15):
best choice to be Reva's interpreter inthis episode, even though he does kind
of emote a good bit when he'sdoing a little bit of sign language in
front of Reva. Did I'm wondering, did Brince Spider learn ASL or was
he just given a few emotions todo in that one scene and that was
it? Does anyone know the answerto that? Perhaps in the original script

(01:06:39):
he was supposed to be signing atall? Oh really, okay, you
see Reva was supposed to read lips. He's not supposed to be signing at
all, and he does in theepisode, but not in the script.
HM. Well, because the actorwas deaf, and he wanted to use
a American sign language. I findit interesting that Klingons have no such sign

(01:07:03):
language, being such a you know, very militaristic kind of society for the
most part, that they wouldn't haveanything like that. As far as you
know, we faith brought up theJordy's visor scene. That was find it
interesting that it kind of they wouldbring that up. Jordy had or Susie
LaVar Burton had wanted that scene inthere so that in the future possibly they

(01:07:27):
might be able to continue that threadand he would could get rid of his
glasses and start actually using his ownexpressive eyes. But unfortunately that that was
dropped, and this is the lastwe hear of, at least for a
long time. My favorite part wasTroy, of course most people were probably
it was when Troy convinced Reva usinghis own words to constitue to do the

(01:07:53):
right thing. You know, whycan't you turn your disadvantage into an advantage?
It was almost Guynan like in itselegance implicity as far as the memorable
quote, Yeah, besides the whycan't you turn your diservantage into an advantage?
It's kind of a silly quote.But what can I say. It's
the one that stuck with me,and that is oh cluck cluck cluck number

(01:08:15):
one. Yes, very good.I'm noticing my and Chris combined have the
Halloween colors on their nails. Right, My's got orange and Chris as purple.
Observant very serventh Rule colors even thebetter. You're right, very good,

(01:08:39):
That's what I meant. I'm gonnachange that in the edit, the
seventh Rule colors. Uh. Look, Eve England out in Wales just admitted
to everybody that she thought it wascute when Pacard said, oh cluck cluck
cluck number one, make me chuckle, and I just thought we need more
of that from Piccard because he actuallyseemed like the real human being. But

(01:09:01):
yeah, I totally agree with Minisawhat you said about the idea. I
thought the idea so when it started, I thought this sounds really cool.
So when they were doing all thatexposition at the start, I thought that
that was really cool, and Iloved the Greek influence of that. And
even you know the set when they'rein that room when they first meet him
and the chorus and they've they've gotthat beautiful column with the stained Glass,

(01:09:26):
and I thought that was brilliant.It started off quite well for me.
I thought I was sort of lookingforward to what they were going to do
with that. But and then Iagree with the other point that I don't
think the execution quite worked. Ithink it would have been a great sort
of piece on the page in anovel, and I think probably now the
TV as it is now, you'dprobably have something a bit more interesting.

(01:09:47):
In the way that they presented itslike, it just felt a bit loss
and a bit disjointed. But again, and I think what really really spoiled
it for me was how they justmade him a bit creepy, and I
think it would have just not hadthat love interest with Troy. I think
that just detracted from the whole thing. It'd been much better if they'd had
a communication and a connection that wasn'tsort of lustful and you know, Pervy

(01:10:11):
that sort of early season of TNNGseems to like doing, so I think
that kind of took me out ofit a little bit. I think they
could have just taken all of thatout and it would have improved it significantly.
But my favorite aspect of this wasactually the scenes with Pulaski, and
I just thought, even though shewas only in it the tiny amount,
I thought the way that she interactedwith both Jordy and Data, I think

(01:10:35):
to me sort of showed some developmentfrom her perspective, and I really got
the sense that she deeply cared forthem. That sort of cheeky smoke that
she gave to Data when you know, he was talking about and doing all
those signs and she was clearly quiteI just got the sense that she was
really proud of how far he's comealong. So I really liked that sort
of insight there. And then justone final point with Data, I did

(01:10:58):
didn't even notice how when he satin Captain's chair that's at the very start,
how he had that sort of ohthis is amazing, I'm I'm the
captain now on his face, andit was so subtle, and I just
thought that that was a gann wasreally cute, and it's just showing a
bit more of Data's sort of personalitycoming through, which I thought was really
cool. Mhm. S Rock definitelypicked up on that as well during our

(01:11:20):
review. Here, Look, everybody, it's Carrie time. Carrie Schwent is
here. What's up? Carrie?What did you think about this episode?
I love this episode. It's actuallyone of my favorites. I think of
the of the entire series. Reallywow. I can see why some people

(01:11:41):
like it, but I personally enjoyit. The Greek course is very cool.
Interesting note about the woman in theGreek course that is John Delancy's wife
and seeing their son Keegan in alater episode of Voyage. Here, I
can see Keegan in he looks likehis like his mom. I like,

(01:12:01):
I could see Keegan in her face. So I loved the Greek chorus was
was very very cool. I've gota couple of production whipsies that I'll save
for things. Left On said thatkind of made me chuckle. Data's demonstration
after he's learned his sign language justhad me had me absolutely rolling, And

(01:12:24):
it very much reminded me of ascene in the in the Big in the
Big Bang Theory where Sheldon just describingthe rules for rock Paper Scissors Lizard Spock
almost the same sort of very similaremotions in the same way. He said.
It was almost the same rhythm thatthat day that Data had And if
anybody hasn't seen that, look upthat clip on YouTube. The rules are

(01:12:45):
very very interesting, interesting the wayhe adds lizards, the lizard in Spot
to Rock Paper Scissors. But Ilove the deaf actor and I find asl
very beautiful just in the in themovements, it's very it's it's absolutely fascinating
to me that the lyrical, that'sthe movements, and you can tell when

(01:13:09):
they're getting bad because the gestures getmore more emphatic. There's a fantastic TV
show called Switched at Birth that isvery much centered around deaf deaf culture and
I highly highly recommend it. AndI didn't find Reva that heard you at
all. I thought the actor hadfantastic chemistry. I really did kind of
like him, him and him andhim and Tory together. She was a

(01:13:32):
little bit nervous at first, butI kind of I kind of liked them,
and I really wanted to take appliersor take a tweezers to that guy's
eyebrows. They were a little busicfor me. But but in taking a
slight page from from from Reva andEntry in that scene, I have a

(01:13:53):
listed my good my good friend,my here with help with my limerick for
the week. I don't know signlanguage very well. It would probably take
me a year to come up withthe signs for the limerick I came up
with. But I've got them onnote cards and I'm going to hold it
up in my as my interpreter willwill read them, read them for me.
Very we go. Let's see ifyou're okay. Communication is more than

(01:14:16):
just words. Your face and yourbody show your concerns. Feelings can often
be traced in the lines of yourface. This way about each other,

(01:14:41):
we learn. Thank you, veryvery nice. Thank you Mike for the
asist. All right, Alison,the pressures on Alison leech Hide is next.
What are your thoughts on today's episode. It is not one of my
favorites. I've probably skipped it fairlyfrequently and rewatches. But it was also

(01:15:08):
on all the time when I wasa kid, like five times a week,
Like it felt like every day thatepisode was on, So I saw
it a lot when I was younger, you know, my you know,
we get to see O'Brien sadly heowns has stuff in a dr and he
actually doesn't say it on screen,so that was sad, but that was

(01:15:30):
my first joy. I'm like,yeah, and then I really like the
scene where Reva is meeting everyone onthe bridge and placing his hand over their
heart to get a feel for theirvibrations, I guess. And I love
the bit where he doesn't want todo with Data. He's like, where
do I go? Where do Igo? Tells him moving as well he

(01:15:55):
is, and just how proud Datais that His thank you is just sweet
and I really like that. Andof course I love the scene where Jordia
is talking about, you know,how his visor is similar to his chorus,
and how he's happy with who heis. I think that's a wonderful
thing for all of us to thinkabout. Like, I like me.

(01:16:15):
I'm not perfect, but I likeme. So love that bit, and
that Troy got to be a psychologistand a counselor, Like, yeah,
she did her job. Yeah shewas also attracted to the person, but
she actually did her job and didn'tlet that get in her way. So
those are those are my favorite bits. Yeah, it's clunky. The actor

(01:16:39):
Howe Sego, who played Reva,is the reason we have the ending we
have now That was changed from thescript, so I don't quite know exactly
how I think he was. Hedidn't want the mechanical failure. I guess
was what it was. I couldn'tquite understand that from the little blurb in
Memory Alpha. But I like thatthey because he is a deaf actor,

(01:17:01):
that they used his wants for hischaracter in this situation because it was not
something they dealt with every day.I mean, I don't think the writers
on this show were deaf, soit was nice they took his wants into
consideration. Wow. Great stuff,Thanks very much, Alison. All Right,

(01:17:24):
s rock lofton any final thoughts onyour part about this episode. Yeah,
I found out that Reeva's last nameis MacIntyre, which I knew man
before we even started recording. Iwas like, if sur Rock doesn't say
a macin tire joke, I'm gonnabe very sad. There it is.

(01:17:46):
Yeah. Wow. But my littleaddition to this is this episode came out
in January seventh, nineteen eighty nine, and at around the same time.
In January of nineteen eighty nine,Avery Brooks was doing a show called A

(01:18:11):
Man Called Hawk. Yeah, andso A Man Called Hawk had its debut
the same year in the same monthas this second season episode of the Next
Generation, and in his third episodeof his show A Man Called Hawk,

(01:18:33):
there was an episode called Here NoEvil, and that episode focuses on Avery
as Hawk involved. He says hebecomes emotionally involved in a case of two
hearing impaired Galudet College students that he'shired to protect after the witnesses after witnessing

(01:18:57):
a murder. So he is atthe college campus of this place called Galudet
Galudet College, and I wanted togive a little bit of history about Galudet
University as a private, federally chartedresearch university in Washington, DC for the

(01:19:19):
education of the death and heart ofhearing. It was founded in eighteen sixty
four as a grammar school for bothdeath and blind school blind children. It
was the first school for the advancededucation of the death and heart of hearing
in the world and remains the onlyhigher education institution which all programs and services

(01:19:40):
are specifically designed to accommodate death andheart of hearing students. And it was
founded by Thomas Hopkins Galudet, anotable figure in the advancement of death education.
So Avery did an episode exactly dealingwith death and heart of hearing students,

(01:20:01):
exactly mirroring the same kind of issuethat this actor wanted to bring to
the forefront of television. So Ido think it's interesting how in the universe
when ideas kind of come and flourishin similar times. Right, it's like
a product will never exist, youknow, throughout history. But then two

(01:20:25):
people invented. They both invent thelight bulb within like the month of each
other or something. And here,in this particular case, you've got an
issue, like, you know,dealing with being deaf or hard of hearing,
and here in this month, youknow, or in this the open
beginning of nineteen eighty nine, herecomes the flood of the market dealing specifically

(01:20:49):
with this kind of issue in atotally different way. In average case,
you actually talked about dealing with learningsign language himself to be able to communicate
in this episode, so I knowthat he actually learned sign language for that
particular episode. I don't know whatBrent Spinder's background is for this particular episode,

(01:21:10):
how much he had to learn,But I think it's interesting that this
subject matter begins to rise its headat the almost exact same time on two
different shows. And the rest I'llleave for things left them said, very
cool, Thank you very much,everybody. We're all so much smarter now.

(01:21:34):
We appreciate you all. Faith Howl, Eve England, Chris McGee my
Live in Tokyo, the Outrageous,Jason Oakin, Alison leeched Hide, and
Carrie Schwent. Everybody at home,let us know your thoughts on this episode
in the comments section below. There'squite a divergence here. Some people hate

(01:21:56):
it. Somebody even used the worddespise. I'm not going to say who,
but Garry said it's one of herfavorite episodes in the history of Star
Trek. Ever, where does itfall in that scale for you? Everybody?
Let us know in the comments below, and until next time, always
remember the seventh Rule.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Communication | TNG 2.5, "Loud as a Whisper" | T7R #237