Iconic | With Melinda M. Snodgrass & Denise Crosby | TNG 2.9, "The Measure Of A Man" | T7R #241 - The 7th Rule -- A Star Trek Podcast with DS9's Cirroc Lofton

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Commander Reiker offers a rod of parsetealData keeps his medals in a case,
and Chief O'Brien's poker luck is alwayslousy until he starts on the dealer's right.
Hello everybody, and welcome to theSeventh Rule with Sarrock Lofton and Denise
Crosby. Hi, my name isRyan T. Hust. Today we're doing

(00:23):
a review of Star Trek the NextGeneration, episode nine of season two,
entitled The Measure of a Man,written by Melinda M. Snodgrass, directed
by Robert Shearer. This is Februaryeleventh, nineteen eighty nine. We have
a very special guest today. Whatluck it is writer Melinda M. Snodgrass.

(00:45):
Hello, Melinda, Yay for havingme. I really appreciated. We
really appreciate you. Good job tomake new friends because I haven't met you
and Sharrock, so thank you forinviting me. Thank you. We ever
get rid of them now, that'sit already. I've already invited him to

(01:07):
Santa Fe. So God, whatyou wish for? I'm telling you,
Like Belcro, They're like, we'recoming very quickly. This episode was sponsored
by two of our very good friends, David Gregory, and aneil Oh Pilatte.

(01:33):
Thank you so much for sponsoring thisepisode. Dave Gregory and aneil Oh
Pilatte. And of course Denise isback. We're so grateful to have her
back as our co host. That'sit. Let's have a ton of fun
together, everybody. Uh, Firstand foremost, Melinda, this is the
first episode that you are credited asa writer on the Next Generation. But

(01:57):
I noticed after that you are creditedas seemingly part of the writer's room after
that? Was it because of thisepisode that all the writers were like,
whoa, hang on a second,we need you or how did this come
about? I have to roll backa little bit. My best friend is

(02:17):
George R. R. Martin,a little known writer. We're hoping that
he'll break big here someday. Georgehad gone out to Hollywood to work on
first The New Twilight Zone and thenon Beauty and the Beast. And George
called me one day from LA.He was living out in la and he
called me and said, hey,Snod, I think if you grow good

(02:39):
at the screenwriting thing, and ifyou'll write a spec script, I'll show
it to my agent. Now Iwas a book author. I had quit
being a lawyer. I was anovelist, you know. That's how I
got to know George. And Iwas like, well, that sounds cool.
So I looked around and had todecide what to write for. And
I had grown up on Track Iwas a little kid. I loved Original

(03:01):
Trek and I saw a new Trekwas starting, and so I started watching.
And George had given me all this, you know, he told me
about how if you write a specscript, you never ever ever ever sell
your specscript. It's just a callingcard. It'll just get you in the
door to pitch. And as Iwas watching the show, I had been

(03:24):
an attorney and constitutional law was myspecialty. And as I was watching it,
I thought, oh my gosh,I can use the dread Scott decision,
which was an infamous Supreme Court decisionwhich ruled that a slave brought into
a free territory was still just propertyand he could not sue for his freedom,

(03:44):
even though he was in now afree territory. And I thought,
I can use that for data.But I called George and I said,
look, I've got this idea fora script, and I think it's really
pretty good. And if I'm nevergoing to sell it. Maybe I should
save it for pitching and write adifferent script because I have some other ideas.
And George gave me the best adviceI've ever gotten as a writer.

(04:06):
He said to me, never hoardyour silver bullet, meaning with the best
thing you have, the thing you'remost passionate about. And so I did.
So I wrote The Measure of aMan and then he you know,
it got sent to his agent,and his agent sent it to Track,

(04:28):
and then I got this phone callthat they wanted to meet me and to
come out to La So I did, and I had all my cards with
my extra the other episodes i'd workedup, and when I met Maury Morris
Hurley, I started to He askedabout me, and you know, my
background, and you know, wewere talking and then I said, well,

(04:49):
I have these other ideas. Andhe went and he pointed at the
whiteboard behind his desk that had alist of the next episodes they were going
to be shooting, and The Measureof a Man was on that shooting schedule.
So I was like, oh mygosh, Oh my gosh. And
then then there was a hiccup.I would came home to New Mexico,

(05:14):
thinking no. I saw the scriptand George's like, damn you, you
made me a liar. I toldyou you'd never sell it. And then
I get home and there was thisweird hiccup where Jean decided to call and
give me notes on the script.And the first thing he said to me
was that there were no lawyers inthe twenty fourth century and then data would

(05:39):
be delighted to be taken apart.And I was like, so I just
said to him, well, misterRoddenberry, then we don't have a script.
And then Maury found out and gotback on the phone with me,
and Maury was like, get backout here right now. So I fly
back to Los Angeles and I saidin a meeting and they gave me notes

(06:03):
things to rewrite on the script forthree hours and they said, well,
this won't work. What would youdo? And at the end of the
three hours, more said I'm hiringyou and you start on Monday. So
I got hired for the show.And it was in I mean, it
was you know, I was Ihad been a lawyer. I'm used to

(06:25):
making, you know, correcting,dealing with things on a timeline and on
a schedule, and also I've beena novelist, so you know, you
get notes and you make changes,and I mean, for example, I
didn't have the poker game. Wasn'tthe initial teaser of my spec script?
Well, I had bet on learninghow to swim, because I thought you

(06:47):
could read all the books, butyou've never actually been in the water.
And I had found out from Rickand from Mike Akuda that Data weighed like
four hundred plus pounds, so whatI wanted. He's like, okay,
I'm ready. Oh, and hegets to the pool and sinks like a
stone and then he has to walkacross the bottom of the pool and comes

(07:09):
up the other side. And Maurysaid, we can't do that. We
suck it going on location first,he said, we here just a terrible
at it. And he said,also, Brent's makeup will wash off,
so we need a different teaser.They ended up actually using that in a
subsequent I don't remember if it wasin an episode or a movie, but
they actually ended up using that whereData sinks to the bottom and just walks

(07:32):
out. I feel like I feellike it may have been a movie.
I don't remember, but I rememberthat was used. Yes, Now,
then I needed something so I cameup with the poker game. Well,
I mean, first of all,why would data weigh four hundred pounds at
this point? I mean, youknow, metal and all that stuff is
getting lighter and lighter as we speak. I don't know. I mean,

(07:56):
that was just what the tech guyswho wrote they know they had said he
was, and I just thought itwould be a funny moment, you know,
I thought it was funny mortally,but they couldn't do it, so
instead they played poker, and thenit became this thing, you know for
all the rest of the show.Yeah, well it became an integral you

(08:18):
know, plot point in a way, this poker game. You know,
this this significance of of you know, how you can read all all you
want, but at a certain point, you know, when do your senses
kick in? You know, whendo you fake? You know when when
do you when? When are youable to read the room? Kind of

(08:39):
it was a really nice kind ofpoint about that. So it was,
you know, the thing I couldcome up with that would do the same
thing for data to not understand bluffingand in all of these these various Yeah.
Yeah, So that's how I endedup on staff on the Star Trek,
because so you moved, you movedfrom Santa Fe to in La again.

(09:01):
Yeah right then. I mean thatwas a Thursday. They gave me
notes and Maury said I had tostart on Monday. So I flew home,
I packed up my car, andI looked back to La and forever.
I mean, look, everybody isaware The Star Trek was not an
easy show. I mean it was, but I am grateful because it taught

(09:24):
me new skills thanks to Ira Bearwho really was my mentor, and Hunts
Miler and Rick Manny. I'm somuch working with them, and it launched
my Hollywood career. So despite theother stuff, it was still I'm grateful
for the opportunities that it gave me. So absolutely, I get that.

(09:45):
I believe me, I get thatmost of the more than more than most.
Yes, you and I share abond. Well, you know,
had you been on the staff,I may have reconsidered dirt. You know,
I mean you were not. Youwere the missing a missing link because
this script is tremendous, tremendous.I mean, there are there are beautiful,

(10:11):
beautiful lines of that that just stopyou in your tracks, that written
here, and you know that thatthat's what I was was looking for.
That wasn't you know there in thein the first season, it was just
you know, not there. Yeah, that was it was. You know,
I'm a very passionate writer, andultimately I ended up being too passionate.

(10:35):
Christ Direck. You know, Iwas always running up against Rick saying
cut it down, cut it down, you know, so I was okay,
yeah, yeah, Melinda, Iwant to give you a lot of
credit for how wonderful this episode is. I want to say, this is,
uh, in my opinion, thebest episode that I've watched our leading

(11:00):
up until this point, so thatwould be two seasons and eight episodes.
I think it's the best, thebest written episode, and really tackles some
important keys that I think become principalthemes throughout Star Trek, and one of
them is about sentient beings and whatis a sentient being? And I thought

(11:24):
you made a very good kind ofdebate about the philosophical arguments of what a
sentient being is, a topic that'soften covered in science fiction. But I
thought you did a very good jobin this episode with that. And also,
yeah, I mean it was therewere quotes all over this episode that

(11:46):
I couldn't stop writing down, sothere wasn't in space in my notice.
That's a lot of quotes. Idid that too, And yeah, so
that just to me tells me howgreat to write. And yeah, I
felt as a viewer that you touchedon some of the sensitivities of what slavery

(12:09):
kind of means to us when welook back on it, at least what
I look back on it. Ithink of being viewed as property, and
that was one of the themes thatwas also well covered in this episode that
struck a nerve for me was theidea of being considered property and not having
a free will or the choice todecide where you go what's going to happen

(12:33):
to you. And you use dataas the vehicle for that storytelling, but
still that is something that's happened forhuman beings on this planet throughout time,
and it's a real story that we'vehad to deal with as a society.
So I want to credit you forjust bringing that all of those key elements

(12:54):
to this story and making this episodeso enjoyable to watch. Let me ask
you some of the challenges that Iwanted to see how you dealt with one
of them is you had multiple charactersthat nobody has seen before, including the
Jag officer Phillips, as well asthe science guy Bruce Maddox. And it's

(13:18):
not easy to introduce Nackamore, right, Adamiral Nackamore as well. And did
you run up against resistance for havingthese many new characters inside of this episode
or was it something that was kindof part of the storytelling. No,
it was nobody ever brought that up. I mean, you know, we

(13:39):
weren't allowed to be in casting onStar Trek, but initially they were going
to cast a sort of really prettylittle land to play Philippa, and Morey
fought against that. He wanted somebodywho came across as Pupper, you know.
And and you know, I justhinted that there was a backstory between
the card and Philippa. You know, I just sort of threw it in

(14:01):
as a little hint. But again, you don't play the backstory. If
you're playing the backstory, then thatought to be the story, you know,
it shouldn't be messing with it.So I just sort of left that
hint so that there was some tensionand issues between them that could play out.
But no, it went. Itwent fine. I mean, there
was never a problem with it.I mean the biggest challenge was when I

(14:28):
initially wrote the script, I didn'thave Glenan in it, Whoopee wasn't in
it, and I was on thejob. I'd moved to la and we
were getting ready to shoot, andI got called into Maury's office and he
said, we've been looking over Whoopee'scontract and she's got to be in thirteen

(14:50):
or one over fourteen episodes, andif we don't put her in measure,
we're not going to meet her ourcontractual obligation. So I need you to
go write a scene for God.And and in many ways that pressure,
I spent like three and a halfhours just pacing in my little office trying
to and then I figured out whatI wanted to do, and I went

(15:13):
downstairs and said, can I dothis? This is what I and Maury
said, go write it. AndI think in some ways that's the heart
of the That scene is the heartof the script. There's no question,
no question. She you you.Now you layer on that added element of
you know, the the enslaved people, property, you know, and you're

(15:37):
you're you so seamlessly introduce those twothere that will stand on their own apart
from each other, the sentient beingand the property. Now and you layer
that, you weave that together inthe in the trial, it was like
I'm going, WHOA, Wow,Okay, we're here at this level and

(16:00):
now we've just dropped down another notch. And credit to Whooping in that performance
as well, because the way shedelivers those lines, she doesn't go over
the top. She's not even angry. It's very almost it's a sadness to
her tone that's like, well,this is the reality. And that that

(16:22):
hit I love too. How youknow, she's clearly we don't know a
lot about going in or at leastyou know when I was on the show,
and the sense that she's taking Picard, who's almost like a child,
that she's leading him toward the conclusion, you know, she's covering him and
helping him discover what's really at stake. And I just, I mean her

(16:45):
performance was just yeah, it takesyour breath away. She was totally does.
And she's so beautiful. She's soelegant, and you can't take your
eyes off of her, you know, her face, her skin, I
mean everything, I just the camerais just you know, loving her at
this moment. And the lines,the lines that you're disposable creatures that do

(17:08):
the dirty work, and you know, that's that's that's that's still a reality
today for a lot of people onthis planet that feel that sense of disposableness
and that are that feel like they'redoing the dirty work. And that's that's
a real sentiment that I thought washit very well. I like the way

(17:30):
piccard it receives the information he hearsit and then receives it, but the
way whip he delivers it is justfantastic. And just the lines you can't
seize people, you know, talkingabout property. Another thing I wanted to
ask you about, Melenda, isthat you inadvertently touched on something that is

(17:52):
a very big topic today, andthat is, you know, the pronoun
identification with data being called it.Yes, it was offending me every time
I heard it was it was botheringme too, and and and such a
foresight for for you didn't have adirect who you did. And there was

(18:15):
a moment in which at the end, doctor Bruce Maddox says he's you know,
he's an amazing guy or something tothat fact. Then you broke.
You you you acknowledge the change inpronouns from it to heat, and I
just wanted to say, that's anotherexample of very clever writing. And and

(18:36):
also you identifying something and hitting anerve in the language with the pronouns.
So I want to credit you aswell for that, Milita. First,
now I'm starting to get the feelingI hadn't even thought of that, So
thank you. That's a really fascinatinginsight. And now I'm like, Okay,
is Florida gonna band measure a man? Is Florida not going to show
that episode again because we're dealing withissue of race and slavery and pronoun homeste.

(19:03):
I'm like, what's gonna happen?But no, butsround breaking? You
feel proud, right? And letme ask you also, So, now
as you're approaching in, you're inon the staff and you're becoming you know,
you're part of the writing, doyou approach your scripts with the same

(19:27):
uh? Lawyers? I, So, are you thinking about when you're writing
or when you're looking at scripts,like you know, how this impacts the
significance of how this will impact societally? Like I think that was one of
the things about brought up in thisepisode where the card tells, you know,

(19:52):
the judge in this case, PhilippaPhilippa, that remember what this decision
is going to mean going forward.It'll act farther on down the line than
just the one decision you have here, which will affect our liberty and freedom.
And that's one of the great quotesof the episode as well. Do
you now do you approach the writingwith that same kind of how does this

(20:17):
have an impact going forward for societyand cultural Yeah? I do. I
you know, I hated being alawyer. I loved going to law school.
I love the study of law.I didn't like being a lawyer,
but I have used it in almostall of my writing, my books,
my scripts, because you know,without law, you know, it's a

(20:40):
foundation for civilization. You have tohave some sort of agreements between people and
in a way to you know,work out issues and debates and conflicts that
are going to arise. So yeah, I do write with that in mind.
And it's actually been one of theweaknesses of science fiction, certainly in

(21:02):
pros for the longest time, isthat we don't look at economics and we
don't look at law. We youknow, are as always whiz bang spaceships,
aliens, fights and so forth.But you know, the way cultures
are going to have to interact isto find a common common ground, a
place from which to negotiate. Soyeah, I think to some degree that's

(21:22):
always you know, playing in theback of my mind is what is this?
And you know, to be alittle critical here, they sort of
throw all that away in the firstseason of The Card, which is the
only one I watched, but itwas like, oh, and look,
we've built all these robots, andI was like, didn't you job It
was a whole measure of a manthat you're not supposed to build an army

(21:45):
of robots. And yet they basedthat season on measure of a man,
and then they kind of ignored thewhole point of measure of a man,
which was, you know, hey, let's not do that. So I
was a little bit baffled by bythat, but that choice, but hey,
they also mentioned of Bruce Maddox.Bruce Maddox was and I believe a

(22:08):
couple episodes of the first season ofThe Profit and they were all looking for
Bruce Maddox. He was like theguffin, Yeah, yeah, there are
a lot of things, just veryquickly, Melinda. There are so many
things in this one episode that youstarted for all of Star Trek. Bruce
Maddox, for example, Admiral Nakamurais in a couple more episodes the data

(22:34):
sink into the bottom of a lake. But the big one that I noticed
was the poker game. I don'tbelieve they played it played poker in any
of the episodes before this, butsince that it became kind of a hallmark
of the next generation. It wasthe heart of next generation. There's so

(22:55):
many episodes that include that. Andthat's even how Star Trek. The card
series Boilers ends with a poker game. And when I saw this here,
I realized, are you the personthat created this whole poker lore for the
next generation? Yes, that yougotta hand your hat on that. It

(23:18):
is huge. Where does your interestknowledge of poker come from? Mostly is
because I thought it would be moreinterested. I played bridge. I'm not
much of a gambler, so Iwas a bridge but I thought it would
be fun, you know, becauseI needed something with bluffing, you know,
because bridge is all about betting andyou know, and it's all right

(23:42):
out there. I wanted something wheredata would be puzzled. But but you
didn't have anything. No, that'sthe whole point data. So poker was
the logical, you know, conclusion. And also I've had friend, I
mean, George who started all thiswith me. George used all love it.

(24:02):
I mean, he was a bigpoker player at science fiction conventions.
He and some of the guys youknow, and so you know, I'm
aware of it, and not necessarilya player myself, but it just seemed
like the right choice to to getacross what I wanted to get across.
So that's what I did. AndI can I ask, where was that

(24:25):
your idea to bring Tasha's hologram up? Yes? Yes, yes, so
you had you had seen or youhad you were aware of our relationship.
I watched all of the episodes beforewe ever tried to. I watched all
the episodes, and I have donesome acting, stage acting. I was

(24:48):
a singer. I studied opera inEurope before I came back and went to
law school. So I've done allthese crazy things. And so I had
watched all the episodes, and Ialso practiced while I watched, repeating the
lines in the way all of youtalked so that I knew how to do

(25:12):
it. I mean, I stillsay all my dialogue allowed whether I'm writing
a script or a novel, butI would play it, repeat it,
stop the tape, you know,stop the recording, repeat the line,
listen again, so that I gotthe rhythm of how people talked for the
show. So I was very awareof the relationship between Data and Tasha,

(25:34):
and so you know, I wantedthat as he was like, you know,
it reminds me of not that it'san emotional thing for him, but
that it was a memory he wantsto keep in his memory things of So
that was, you know, becausethat's always the balance of Data is you
can't make him emotional. But youalso mean, humans are watching this,

(25:59):
and you know, if he wasjust a computer, he wouldn't be terrible.
I mean, to be honest,he was the most by the time
I got to the show. Hewas always the most interesting character, which
is kind of sad because he wasa robot, but you know, he
wanted to learn and change and understandhuman so there was some growth for him,

(26:22):
and everybody else was just so perfect, you know exactly. That's what
I was always fighting against, bythe way, but back to that hologram.
That so and now we come tothe end of you know, the
third season Picard, and and thehologram reappears. Yeah again, I only

(26:48):
know. I haven't seen it either, but but I have I know about
that. You know, everybody we'veseen it. Spoiler. Yes, Tasha's
hologram does come back again in theseason three of The Cards. So again,
Melinda, they reuse your ideas onceagain, including from one episode the
hologram amazing and that hologram that becauseof that hologram, because data has that

(27:17):
cube, and that hologram speaks volumesin terms of the the story, the
definitive storyline of this of what thenext Generation is. You know, you
know that now there is this deepeningand this resonance between these two characters because

(27:44):
of that hologram, right, thatthat that he holds, that that has
huge significance. And to include thatin Picard. You know, I talked
to Terry Mattalis about it. Hehe, as a child was is watching
the Next Gen, Right, it'sa little boy dreaming of one day writing

(28:08):
for this show. That he takesthat and brings it with him into when
he's able to do it. Hardyou know, can I something I really
did based on the script measure ofa man grass Well, everyone knows about

(28:30):
that. I'm so glad that thatthat that happened, that that you know,
that relationship and that Tasha knew justweren't erased out of a star trek
lore, you know. Yeah,exactly, yeah, exactly, thank you.
And Brent, by the way,played that moment very well too.
I want to give Brent's credit becauseI will agree with you Millen, I

(28:53):
do feel like, all right,Brent Spinder's character really was a big central,
you know, engine driving this show. And one of the things that
I thought he did well was playedthat moment. And I thought the moment
itself was written very well because hepauses when the hologram comes up and he

(29:18):
says, They're like, well,who is this And he says something to
the effect of, uh, she'ssomeone special to me, you know,
and there was a sensitivity there,and he said, I'd rather not I'd
rather not tell you what happened,right, right, because there's a privacy
there as well. Yeah, andthe experience they shared and so right,

(29:45):
and then he finally gives it upbecause Picart looks at him like bro,
you're about to die. You know, She's like, I think she'll be
okay with it under the circumstances.Yeah, that was very sweet. Yes,
I thought said Tasha would be okaywith it. Yes. I like
the way you wrote that because itplayed out well in my opinion, because

(30:07):
he was protecting his secret with herin his moment with her, but he
was also respectfully giving away the detailswithout being I thought overly repulsive and a
masculine way kind of You know.That's where another thing that you bring to
the table, Melinda, is thesensitivity of a woman, because in the

(30:32):
beginning of these episodes, we sawa heavy lean towards a male chauvinistic point
of view in the first season ofThis Next Generation, and we have been
looking for more balanced kind of approachto the storytelling. I felt like there
was a more chalanistic point. Iknow, DC Fontana was there and there

(30:55):
were other people doing things, butI felt like you had more of an
understand any about how to approach certainsituations. For example, how did the
how were you able to convince Roddenberrythat lawyers do exist in the future.

(31:15):
I was really lucky Jean got sickand he was found for six weeks,
and in that six weeks period theygot that script to the set and they
shot it and then it was toolate. And the funny thing was,

(31:37):
I was on a panel with DavidGerald, who wrote The Trouble of Triples,
and so it's David Gerald, GeorgeMartin and me on this panel,
and I tell the story about well, Jean got sick and he wasn't around,
and so we were able to shootthe show as I wrote it,
rather than it getting you know,torn apart. And David looks over and

(32:00):
he says, you know, whenI did Tribles, Jeane hated the Trouble
Tribles because Star Trek wasn't funny.But he went on vacation for three weeks
and we shotted Wallington and George issitting between us and he just starts howling
with laughter, like, oh mygod. You know, it's two of
the scripts that people love got throughbecause you know, right managed to sneak

(32:24):
them through. Yeah, I mean, you know, Jing, it was
the whole like the whole no moneything made me crazy, and the fact
that people were perfect, I mean, you know, I what measure did.
I was able to have conflict betweenthe characters. I was able to

(32:44):
have Piccard and Riker on on oppositeSidnes and yeah, and that was such
a nice change from everybody just beings, so you know, we're all together,
even Piccard and Philippa had come likethere. Yeah, yeah, budding
of head. She brought back thisthe idea of this this the Star Gazer.

(33:07):
You actually brought that up again,another kind of recall in the script
where you're bringing back storyline that we'veheard before. Yeah. Yeah, just
trying to you know, give somesense that there's depth and people interact with
each other and you know that's soYeah, well it's interesting. It's interesting
looking at uh Amanda McBroom, whoplays Philipphia. You guys have similar you

(33:37):
have similar coloring and qualities. Ididn't know she was. I mean,
since we weren't permitted anything should belike you you know she was. I
think that's what it seemed like tome. Yeah, I don't know more
I would try to find a redhead or what. Yeah, isn't that

(33:57):
interesting? Well you're doing them all, Melinda. Boy, oh boy.
This has been so much fun andwe have so much more to talk with
you about. So we hope thatyou will come back many more times.
We have a few more excuses tohave you back in the future, so
hopefully you will be joining us again. But this has been amazing. You

(34:20):
wrote an amazing script, You madeus laugh. You changed the course of
Star Trek, and that's not anexaggeration. You actually did change the course
of Star Trek. Still to thisday we're feeling the effects of it and
the references. So thank you somuch for joining us today. Thank you
so much for having me. Itwas lovely getting to know YouTube gentlemen and

(34:44):
getting to see Denise and chat.And I hope that everything fixed it the
house with all the rain. Youdid a fantastic job in this episode.
I loved it from start to finish. Really a highlight of this first two
seasons from me, and I justwanted to congratulate you on the ineffable quality

(35:10):
to use one of your lines.Yeah, well, I just want to
say this Data is a toaster.Data is a toaster. I laughed out
loud. It's so matter of factly, you know, exclamation point, Okay,

(35:34):
a toaster. So, Melinda,we've heaped praise on you just now.
After you're gone, we're going tocontinue to heap more praise on you,
but again, thank you so muchfor this. We hope to see
again real soon. Everybody, stickaround. We've got a lot more coverage
of this glorious episode, and we'llbe right back on the Seventh Rule.

(35:58):
Hello, everybody, Welcome back tothe Seventh Rule with Sirock Lofton and Denise
Crosby. Hello, We've got alot more fun happening right now. Starting
with the trivoids very quickly, nota ton of them this week. The
Enterprise is en route to newly establishedStar based one seventy three for port call.
Chief O'Brien's poker luck is always lousyunless he starts on the dealer's right.

(36:23):
Philippa louvois is in charge of thetwenty third sector JAG office. Commander
Riker offers a rod of parse deal. We are all managing. We are
all machines of a different type.Data keeps his medals in a case.
Data keeps a hologram of Tasha Yarand Starfleet was founded to seek out new

(36:45):
life. Wow, so let's justget back into this. I was really
excited for you both to see thisepisode. I had not seen it in
decades. I'd only seen it onceand as a child, you know,
I was like, Okay, it'sone of those courtroom things, so,
you know, kind of went overmy head a bit, but I was

(37:07):
aware this was one of the bestepisodes in Star Trek history. Some people
say it is the best. SoI was really excited to see it now
with adult eyes. I was reallyexcited for the both of you to see
this and be blown away, likethis came out of the second season of
Next Generation? How did that happen? Right? Yeah, first time for

(37:28):
me. I've never never never sawit. I had heard about it obviously
over the years of doing cons andbeing up on stage and people asking,
you know, what do you thinkis the best episode? What's your favorite
episode? And I was, youknow, measure the measure of a man
always always was in there, andso yeah, I was. I was

(37:52):
really delighted to see the level ofwriting and the tenderness and the and the
moments shared. You know, itwas just a beautifully illustrated, you know,
themed episode, beautifully done. AndI had never seen uh Pulaski,

(38:15):
you know, I'd never seen Ihad only seen Whoopie when I was you
know, which I won't give anyspoilers away, but you know I had
later on, you know, soit was it was it was a lot
of new a lot of new stufffor me to watch and again see seeing

(38:37):
it at this distance, you know, safely not you know where it where
it stirs all of the stuff thatI was would would have been going through,
you know while in it. Yeah. Well yeah, well you're in

(38:57):
the episode, so you're in oneof the best episodes. Yeah, but
it wasn't just that little holiday,but it was just your your legacy that
you left, and how you affectedData and how he was sticking to that
you know, promise, and itjust real quick strock. I know you

(39:20):
were leading to something. But sinceyou bring that up, I really thought
that Melinda gave you that closure thatyou seemed to tell us you wished for
in your final episode when you saidyou wanted to come up and say end
Data. It did happen like youwanted to. You wanted, Tasha Yar,

(39:43):
You wanted that acknowledgement for Data tonot be like, Okay, last
thing you ever heard was it neverhappened, And so he just kind of
got this wall up to where hecan never express that and you wanted him
to get that acknowledgment, and theysaid, no, not keeping it,
not not doing it. And Ifeel like this gave you that very astute

(40:06):
observation, right And and yes Ididn't. I didn't want it to end
with him thinking that I didn't acknowledgeit. You know. That's I wanted
him to know that I you andI are in the same on the same
page. You know, we bothhad this experience. And I want you

(40:30):
to know that, you know,I was. I was embarrassed by my
act. You know. It's likethe night you wake up drunk, you
know, from a drunken night,and you're you look over and oh my
god, who is this next tome? You know, and you go,
how did that happen? Again?I gotta stop? You know,

(40:51):
this is I really got to geta hold of myself. You know.
That's I mean, that's kind ofwhere Tasha was, you know, coming
the morning after. You know,like, oh, she's back in her
security security mode and slightly embarrassed ofher her vulnerability basically, you know,
this other side of her. Sothere, you're right that that she did

(41:14):
she by by doing that, itnot only introduces this this this theme for
the rest of the show into Picardas we as we see, but you
know it, it it really hasa significant impact in Data's you know,

(41:37):
life that will won't go away.Yeah, and I have to say what
what Melinda was saying about the charactersbeing kind of stuck in their way or
they're already solidified in their way,but Data we're seeing more. He's like,
there's growth to him because everything isa new experience, right, He's

(42:00):
always like, oh, what isthat? And tell me about this?
And you know, and so there'sthat kind of curiosity that he represents,
h and that same curiosity is theone we have as the audience, right,
we are also curious what's going onin space, what's happening on the
station and you know, what's that? What's that? You know? And

(42:20):
so we also have that. AndI felt like Brent, you know,
I always give him his credit becausehe's so amazing, And I did tell
him that in Vegas this last time, about how amazing I think he is.
And one of the things that hedid when Bruce Maddox tells p Card,
yeah, I'm here and we're goingto disassemble data for the first time

(42:43):
that he hears that the look onData's face was like a like a child,
and it was like, you know, like there was a helplessness,
a child like and he was lookingat the card like you're going to let
him do that to me? Likeas if you know, it was a
real kind of innocent on his face. That he was able to capture that
expression to me in a very realway. And even the way he argues

(43:08):
for his own defense, you know, by talking about Laforge's eyes, you
know, he's like, well,LaForge, you know he's already has you
know, his vision is better thannormalize, right, how come everybody doesn't
get those? So I just thosekinds of arguments that he was posing,
I thought made it really special.Even when he says he comes around the

(43:30):
corner and he sees Maddox kind ofdigging with his book and he's like,
don't you have to ask permission togo through somebody stuff? There was some
kind of exchange with that. Theseshowed me all signs about how human data
really is. And I think that'swhat Tasha brings up for me. It
shows me that data is more humanthan robot in those kind of way where

(43:53):
he's you know, he's he's hadan emotional connection with somebody, physical connection.
He has these kinds of curiosities likea child. So these are like
qualities that are a human one.You know. I think, I think
what we're also experiencing in watching thisis sometimes data is more human than the

(44:15):
humans. And what, you know, what what is going on to which
I love, is within the othercharacters, their their connection with data.
What they're navigating is their own strugglewith accepting that, Yeah, the reality

(44:37):
is this is an android, buthe is not. He's not an android.
He is my friend. You know. Ryker says he is my friend,
but which basically he's saying, Ilove he is. He is one
of me. He is you know, he is one of us. You
know. So it's it's there,it's there conflict within themselves that they're always

(45:04):
having, and this exemplifies the perfectdilemma for them at this moment because they
want to heat No, no,no, we're taking this. This is
this is a machine. This isjust a machine. We've got to we've
got to technically, you know,break this thing up and disassemble it and
and look and so. But they'reso you know, the rest of the
crew is so personally invested and connectedto this friend. So it's it's it's

(45:32):
a wonderful, you know, dilemmathat's introduced all this. And then and
then to to kind of echo yourpoint about Data being more human than humans,
sometimes when he is going when hisbelongings are being you know, kind
of displayed by Picard, and hesays, and what are these? And

(45:52):
those are my medals? And uh, Data says, is that vanity?
Right? Literally questions it, youknow, like, is it vain for
me to self collect my metal?That's a self awareness, right, absolutely,
absolutely right. I thought that's agreat thing. And then and then
the book, He said, whatabout this book? And he says,

(46:14):
well, that was a gift thatyou gave me, you know, and
it represents friendship and service. Sothat's sentimentality another very human yes, exactly
exactly. And then he brings outthe hologram of Tasha Yard and so these
are all human sides of Data wherehe's exploring his own version of humanity,

(46:40):
his own, you know, toasterversion of humanity. But it's something new,
it's it's new life, like thecard was making the argument in his
closing statement about exploring new life.That's right, and Philippa. Philippa towards
the end, you know, sizesit all up, you know, for

(47:02):
us in that it's up to himnow to find the soul, to develop
the that's that's for that data toto you know, experience, now explore
it if in fact he has asoul. She says, I don't even
know if I have a soul.That was a great line as well.

(47:22):
Oh my god, yes you knowwe're told that, but you know,
what what does that mean for eachone of us? M hm, you
know. That was another thing Iwas just Ryker didn't no, he was
just doing his job. Actually,that was a question I wanted to ask,

(47:45):
but I was like, there's waytoo much to talk about them,
these these details. But like Ithought that that's a lot. You know,
that's something that an attorney would comeup with. Is yeah, forcing
somebody to take a side that theydon't. Maybe subscrib drive too necessarily,
but he's being forced to do itbecause otherwise, you know. So they
explained that very well. Also wantto point out very quickly that you both

(48:07):
mentioned more human than human shout outto White Zombie. That's a great White
Zombie song. More human than Human. I just know that. Everybody's very
excited that you both mentioned that.But yeah, the line that when what
Pacart said, there's way too manyto quote them all. But when he
points at data and he says,no, what is he? He says

(48:30):
what is he? Then? Idon't know? Do you do? You?
Do you? And it was justso beautifully delivered, well written.
Loved it. And the line ofStarrock you were referencing when he says,
you know we our principle is toowhat is it? Starfleet was founded to
seek out new life? Well thereit sits right, And I feel like

(48:52):
that was kind of like the Checkmatemoment, right. I loved that.
Yeah, the way also the chemisstreet between duct Felippa, I want to
keep want to call her doctor Phelippa, but the judge Felippa, let's say.
And Picard. I thought it waswritten very well. There was a

(49:14):
moment where they were meeting each otherand he says, she says, uh,
he says, you know, youknow what I feel like doing?
And she she said, oh,you want to bust a chair across my
teeth? And he was like afterthat, after like this they're the contention
in their relationship is kind of likewhoa, okay, car it's a little

(49:36):
shy. Yeah. And then afterthat she says to him, she calls
him, you're such a pompous assand damn sexy man or something like that,
and I was like, this iswhere's this going? Yeah, practically

(49:58):
click on. I want to Melinda, if that was her line or is
that, you know, one ofthe added lines of the other you know,
to just interject because they're they're they'retrying to you know, but give
Picard that you know, heroism,that that put him up in kind of

(50:21):
sexy anytime, you know, lookingfor sex up moments. So that was
clearly a little you know, nodto that. So you know, we
got it. We got it.The part I thought was cold blooded was
when Ryker says, uh, Pinocchiois broken. Yeah. I thought I

(50:49):
thought that was excessively harsh language thatdidn't need to be, Like he could
have proved his point and turned himoff and said, okay, it seems
just a machine. I thought thatwas like almost like trying to steam.
I think you're so right, becausethat's really well thought thought out. Because
if in fact Ryker is torn,you know, torn up, that he

(51:14):
has to do this, he wouldall you know, he's only doing it
because the alternative was was unthinkable.Okay, so he's going to do this
in hopes that Picard is even betterthan him. He's gonna do so with
data being off, Why would hebe even harsher? Like, who's he

(51:38):
saying that too? All do issay, I rest my case. Stata
is a machine. I rest mycase exactly, And then he could have
walked away very well. Well,but the Pinocchio is broken. Is a
is a heart, it's it's it'sit's it's language that's used to tear somebody

(51:59):
down, destructive language. And Ithought, why are you taking a low
blow on him? And you know, especially when this is something you don't
want to do. I can hearI can hear Maddox saying that, Bruce
Maddox, I can hear him chiningin from the sideline. Absolutely yeah,
that's that's not how Riker feels.No, No, it would have been

(52:22):
great at that line came from Maddox. If he had said that, I
would have bought it. I didn'tlike Ryker saying it be any He was
like cold blooded about it. Absolutelyright, absolutely right, it's too much.
But there were so many good things. I love how Piccard essentially is
standing up for data's rights. Andto me, this is this is one

(52:46):
of his best qualities. And thisis an example Picards showing real leadership to
me, like, this is aleadership quality. This is when you stand
up for some one and you say, I'm going to find a way.
What can day to do? Canhe resign? Or make him resign?

(53:07):
He's not, you know, findinga way is the leadership quality in Piccard
saying Okay, well I'm not goingto quit there, I'm going to We'll
go to trial, We'll do this, we'll do that. That's what a
leader does and finds whatever means orat disposal that are, you know,
within the rules and with the boundwithin boundaries to try to get as a

(53:29):
point across and convince people about what'sright. That's leadership, not forcing somebody
to believe what's right, but actuallyconvincing them in in an argument in the
win. You know what, Yeah, I thought that this was the most
convincing argument, if you will,for making Picard likable, uh this episode.

(53:50):
I feel like this was the mostlikable that he has been written out
of the first you know, thirtyor so episodes, this was they were
the most successful making him a characterthat we really like. Uh. In
this one, I personally thought,I was like, this is this is
the guy that you know. He'sgot a good moral compass, he's smart,
he's compassionate, very different from theguy we were introduced to, you

(54:15):
know in the first few seasons thatwas just kind of a grumpy Gussie,
but an incredibly loyal, incredibly loyalto his lot of heart there. Yeah.
Yeah, However, guess what,everybody, it's time for the home
run of the episode. We can'tget out of that. I know.
That's why I was looking at you, silly goose Denise, who gets the

(54:38):
home run of the episode today?Wow, I gotta give it to Data.
He just you know, he reallyjust you know, this is his
episode. It just really gives himsome a lot to ponder, a lot

(55:05):
of sides of him to you know, to expose to to to you know,
question to to. We see thesethis sort of prism of how he
how he conducts himself in this world, and and it was very it was
very touching. He was very veryuh loving in this in this episode.

(55:30):
So I give him them the homerun, leave it to leave it to
Tasha Yard to talk about every sideof data being exposed that way. That
way. Yeah, you know,I'm going to give this one, uh

(55:57):
to Melinda snod Grass. You know, she wrote this episode on her own,
came up with some very important themesthat continue to resonate throughout the Star
Trek community all these years later.And also having to you know, really

(56:20):
go from being an an unknown televisionwriter, you know, to just breaking
in with this kind of a script, with this quality of a story.
I'm going to say that she getsthe home run for me. Also having
to bat butt heads against Roddenberry andand the likes in order to get her

(56:45):
message across and staying strong with herthemes that she fought for, and also
the idea that she took the dreadScott decision and took that real legal precedence
and turn it into a science fictionepisode. And that, to me is
a kind of genius that I liketo see on display. It takes something

(57:08):
very real and puts it into contextof fantasy and allows us to think about
these kinds of subject matter in away that we normally wouldn't. And that's
why I'm going to give Milinda snodGrass the home run of the day.
M Yeah, I'm down with MelindaM. Snod Grass. That's the home

(57:29):
run of the Day for me.Not just because of what an incredible episode
that she wrote that still resonates tothis very day. Everybody's constantly still talking
about it, but that she Yeah, like Strok said, she created these
themes that are still going. Likethe poker you know game, I mean,
that wasn't just revisited in Picard,it was through. It was almost

(57:51):
like the heart of the next generation. It represents the next generation a lot
of things that she came up with. But also because it almost felt like,
and I can't really put myself backin what you know, the viewers
were feeling in nineteen eighty nine,It felt like it gave the next generation
a pulse. It felt like itwas kind of hovering down here and then
bing it got like a really andI feel like there were maybe some people

(58:13):
in nineteen eighty nine that just kindof stopped and caught themselves like leaning forward
a bit, saying, holy shit, this show can be really good,
or you know, that's what I'mthinking. That's what it feels like.
But home Run of the day forher. Can't say enough good things,
But we can't say enough good thingsabout these incredible people. Wait, that
doesn't sound like a compliment. Imeant it as one. And they are

(58:37):
Homer Frizelle, Doctor Anne, MarieSiegel, Eve England out in Wales,
Yvette Blackman, Tom t J Jackson, Bay Bill, Victor Roukin, Tidus
Muller, Darlina Murray, doctor MohammedNor Tierney, C. Deekman on a
Post, Anil O Palette, JoeBalsarati, Mike Goo, dq Neil Akasaka

(59:02):
Saka our Good pal, Justine Norton, Kurtz and doctor Stephanie Baker, Carrie
Schwent, Faith Howell, Edward Foltz, My Live from Tokyo, The Matt
Boardman, Chris McGee, Justin Weir, Jake Barrett, Jane Jorgensen, Henry
Unger, Allison Leech Hide, Juliemanas Fee, Marcia Classic Schreyer and of

(59:27):
course doctor Susan V. Gruner andJason the Outrageous Oaken. All right,
everybody, stick around, We've gotthe Free for All coming up next.
It's gonna be crazy, It's gonnabe a lot of compliments. Somebody's gonna
say this episode was terrible. It'sprobably gonna be No, nobody's gonna stay.
Probably he's there. Everybody stick around. We will be right back on

(59:54):
the seventh Rule. Well, hithere, everybody, Welcome back to the
Seventh Rule. Denise Crosby Sarrock lofton. Of course, this is the free
for All. Look who's here.It's Melissa Longo. We've got t J
Jackson Bay. I'll just bet he'sin Missouri. Nice background, TJ.

(01:00:16):
Everybody listening. He's got an identicalbackground to Surrock. That's pretty awesome.
That's Emo Redka style right there.We've got Chris McGee here, Alison Leach
hide as well. We've got EveEngland out in Wales, doctor Susan V.
Gruner My is live in Tokyo.Probably Carrie Schwent crafty Bear. We've

(01:00:40):
got Justin Weir aka Shag eight forty. Faith Howell is hanging out on the
Enterprise. D Golden Scott Jensen ishere, and of course Jason the Outrageous
oakin. All right, everybody,So first things first, Uh, Jake
Cisco guesses the IMDb score. I'mgonna say like an eight point two.

(01:01:13):
It's the eight point two, geta lot of nods. Does anybody else
have any guesses that doesn't already knowthis one? Eleven? I'm gonna go
on this one. That's a tenthtwo, all right. The answer is
it's definitely taller than any NBA player. I'll tell you that much. It

(01:01:36):
is a nine point one. That'sbecause the highest score. Oh definitely,
yeah, definitely. What did yousay? Yeah? Fantastic, excellent.
Also, did everybody catch the nonappearance mentions today? I got two?

(01:02:01):
It was doctor Union song and ordon't there any others? Yeah? I
considered. I do feel like astar Gazer is a character. But there's
another Homer would be pissed. Ohthere's another one we got. Yes,

(01:02:22):
it was a little little known securityofficer name Tasha Yare. But there was
an appearance. Yeah, he didall right for this. Intimately, the

(01:02:50):
niece Crosby, the actor, wasnot recorded in this episode, and so
it's still appearance mentioned. Oh weneed Tyler. Yeah. I have a
feeling Homer would get whip last shakinghis head on this one. But we'll
ask him. We'll ask him whenhe gets back. Well, then we'll
have to add Pinocchio to that list. Then oh yeah, yeah, all

(01:03:17):
right, Melissa Longo, what's up, Radical Shirt? What did you think
of this episode? I love thisepisode. I love this episode. It's
probably one of my favorite Star Trekepisodes of all time, just because it's

(01:03:39):
that good. I love episodes thatare like this, that are kind of
stripped down, that are kind ofbare bones, and they look at the
humanity of us all and and Iand for me, an episode like this
represents what Star Trek really is about. And and it's the exploration of what

(01:04:04):
it means to be alive and whatclassifies a life. And I love that
Star Trek explores that in every aspectit possibly can. I love that.
And I love that it explores theidea that one life isn't more important than

(01:04:28):
another life, and and and Ifelt that very strongly in this episode.
Yeah, it was great. Thescene between Guynen and Picard blew me away.
I watched that probably more times thanI could count. But the when

(01:04:50):
Picard says the word property, ithit me in the head in the face
like a ton of bricks because itwas so waited, and there was so
much subtext behind that word, andit knits so much, and and it

(01:05:12):
encompassed what this whole episode was about. And yeah, and the exploration of
life. And I have so muchmore that I could say about this episode.
I'm gonna have to save it,but all good stuff. I love,
love, love love everybody in thisepisode, every performance, and I

(01:05:34):
love the tribute to Tasha and howshe was included in that as well.
So yeah, great episode, excellent, Thank you Melissa, good stuff.
Can't wait for the rest of it. Uh. I'd like to call Eve
England out in Wales to the stand. Uh Eve England, you are an

(01:05:57):
attorney, are you not? Iam, but this kind of attorney.
I've never once been in a court, but I did like some of the
legal stuff in this and I mightwell spend a little bit more than two
minutes because I really enjoyed this episodeand definitely the best t Indi episode since
Conspiracy, which I'm you know,I'm glad you gave me the heads at
Brian to watch it because obviously Ihaven't seen it before. And yeah,

(01:06:20):
it was just so so fascinating andI feel like I need to watch it
again because I'm sure there's so muchmore complexity in the layers that I probably
didn't pick up the first time,so definitely going to go back and rewatch
this. So I've got a fewpoints to say, but i'd just to
sort of start off with a sortof slight disappointment that I had with this,

(01:06:41):
but I appreciate the reason they didit. They didn't do this with
timings, but I would have lovedthem to have had doctor Pulaski come and
defend data because I feel that hercharacter would have brought so much weight to
that argument, because she know,as we know, she started off just
treating him as this robot, butby this episode, she's there then as
one of his chosen friends to youknow, at his leaving party, which

(01:07:02):
I think tells a great deal abouthow she's been a mentor and she's constantly
pushing him to explore his humanity.So I would have loved to have seen
that, but appreciate, you know, they wanted to keep it a bit
tighter for that. Yeah, andI just I just love that, and
you know, it would have justloved to see more of her, because
you'll know, I'm a big fan. But in terms of some of the
points that I that sort of struckme when I was watching it the first

(01:07:24):
just seemed. I thought it wasa bit odd how such a momentous kind
of decision, a legal you know, a key legal principle was almost made
summarily by that captain without any dueprocess or any kind of third parties getting
involved. So I thought that wasquite interesting, sort of in terms of
a criticism of the Federation, andyou know, is what really is their

(01:07:45):
legal system like if they can justhave one person making this kind of decision
without a proper hearing and time toprepare, et cetera. And then related
to that, I thought, mit sort of made me think about the
Voider episode where the doctor is arguingthat he have IP rights, and I
was like, and I don't lookon and maybe I've only seen that episode
once as well, so I mightneed to go back, But I was
thinking, surely this this episode wouldhave been would have established some sort of

(01:08:10):
legal precedent for that case, andI don't think they mentioned it, but
I'm going to go back and doublechecks. I thought that was quite interesting
as well, And as Melissa said, I just loved all the philosophical aspects
and that that reference to property andyou know the weight that that carries in
terms of you know our fairly recenthistory, and it certainly reminded me of
other shows. You know how StarWars, you know, uses the Clone

(01:08:31):
Army, uses their droids and justtreat them as just just you know,
dispensable and they're expendable. So Ithought that was really interesting. And there's
also a British TV show called Humans, which it's kind of basins of near
future where there's androids and then it'sall about that because we're basically just using
them for slaves for all sorts ofawful things. So you know that it's
just such relevant conversations and topics toexplore, and I just thought the way

(01:08:55):
they distilled that right down, asyou said, Malisa, it's just so
interesting, so powerful. And thenI'm not going to be here for the
things left and said, so ifyou'll just bear with me. The one
criticism I had with this whole episodewas how that Captain Ruins who puts down
a pcard. I was like,you're saying he's a pompous ass, and
then you go and say he's sexy. I was doing this. I was

(01:09:18):
like, I pictured you getting madat that too. I knew you would,
and so I brought satisfaction and areso inappropriate? Yeah, I wanted
to find out where was that anadamant, you know by one of the
producers just to sex up Picard,you know, always trying to you know,

(01:09:41):
make him juicy and sexy and youknow, make sure we get that
he's sexy, you know, yeah, because and I just borrow mind,
so we have to have someone saysit's just so odd, wasn't it?
And I just thought, you know, he's just he just and I know
that there was I can't remember whichepisode it was, but he was sort
of going on about Pulaski and wasspeaking to Troy about, you know,
whether she was doing her job properly, and I just I think the way

(01:10:03):
it's being presented so far that heseems to have an issue with women and
authority anyway, and he doesn't seemto speak to them with a respect.
I think we would have if thisshow was being done now. So yeah,
that, yeah, it did.It did annoy me. How I
was I was I was actually aJames there and I was like when she
called him, I was like,yes, this is brilliant, and then
she goes, oh, and you'revery sexy. I was, oh,
no, yeah, she might handedthat one that but that's the only That

(01:10:27):
was the only negative point I hadfor the whole episode, which I think,
you know, for me is probablya really really positive thing. Say
that. You couldn't even say thatto a man right now. You know
he'd call you out, he'd callyou on that, and you know,
be able to have every right todo so, you know, the opposite

(01:10:47):
were true. It was just reallyawkward. I just didn't feel they had
any chemistry either. It was justa bit weird how they their their interaction
just felt quite false to me.I thought she was a fairly good character
otherwise, but I didn't think sheneeded to hop that romantic connection with the
Coad. All right, great stuff, Thank you very much. Eve.
You may step down. Alison LeechHide, what's up? How are you?

(01:11:15):
What do you think of this one? I mean, I love the
episode's it has all the things welove about Star Trek. In it,
we are defining or not even defining, exploring what it means to be alive
and considered an individual and a human, and we have used the term human

(01:11:35):
for everyone really in the end,and so I love that. I thought
all the actors brought their a game. You know, Maddox was great,
Philippa Lvo was great. I'm alittle sad we didn't get a lot of
jority. That is in the extendededition of this episode, if you can
get your hands on it, thereis more jority in it, and it's

(01:11:59):
a wonderful scene because I mean,they're best friends. There should be more
scenes with Jordy and Data and thisthis is you know really, I mean,
when you're going through something hard,you want your best friend with you.
So that's that's my criticism of thisepisode is there should be more Jordy,
But that's my criticism of almost everyepisode, that there should be more
Jordy. Mcamara when he comes ontothe bridge and just like offhandedly just says,

(01:12:24):
oh, Commander Madox is here todisassemble your android. I'm like,
what, that's an actual being.Like we talk about disassembling things that are
broken to make them better, youknow, but we know Data is not
broken. So that word got me, like right in the beginning, I'm
like, no, and always sincea kid, I'm just like, we

(01:12:44):
can't use that word. He's ahe's an individual. We can't do that.
You can't take him apart to makemore of them. So that's you
know, it's horrible, like he'snot that and shout out to O'Brien getting
to be in the first poker game. So I'm going to end it there.
But those are those are my happiesand Sad's for the episode. Oh,

(01:13:08):
that's fun happies and sad it's veryvery happy to see O'Brien. Yeah,
and the very first poker game thatwe see. Chris McGee, what's
up? It's the Dark Lord?What do you think of this one?
Oh? I hated this episode.No, I've only seen it at least
a dozen times, you know,so much so that I even went to

(01:13:29):
a theater to watch the extended cutof the episode back when they were promoting
Blue Ray season two, which ison the Blue Ray actually, if you
want to watch the extended version ofit. The dialogue was just so incredibly
well written. Data's question about replacingall human officers eyes with cybernetic implants,

(01:13:50):
that was just so powerful, Ithought, and I mean, what more
can be said? As Melissa broughtup the gun and bringing up the point
of slavery, which is absolutely perfect, absolutely just just hits you like a
ton of bricks. Like she said, I will say, any fans of

(01:14:11):
this episode, besides myself, ofcourse, go check it. If you
haven't already, check out the LegalEagle video on YouTube that discusses this episode.
I think it's quite interesting. Maybeit's just because I'm a sucker for
courtroom dramas. It's the reason whyI love ad Astra per Aspera from Strange
New Worlds, but it's I thinkit's quite interesting. On the technical side,

(01:14:39):
data mentions he has a storage capacityof eight hundred quadrillion bits. You
may have already talked about this earlier. I don't know, but I'll go
ahead and mentioned that that is equivalentto about one hundred petabytes or one hundred
thousand terabytes. That's a little bitmore relatable right now. The largest computer
in the world, the Summit,where at least it was as of twenty

(01:15:00):
twenty. I don't know about now, but the Summit by IBM, has
two hundred and fifty petabytes of storage, so more than doubling that to bring
it to something a little bit morerelatable. Maybe for those of us who
are familiar with graphics cards for desktopcomputers in Nvidia g Force RTX thirty ninety,

(01:15:23):
which was released again about in twentytwenty, has been between twenty nine
and thirty five trillion operations per second. So if Data has sixty trillion operations
per second, one of those videocards is about half a data, so
to speak, so smarter than myiPhone twelve or not? Come on,

(01:15:47):
Christ, bring it, you know? Yeah? And I can pull it?
Can I google it better than Google? Yeah? That's my What about
chat GPT? Though, I'm gonnaride with Data on this one. As

(01:16:11):
for the memorable quote of the episode, holy cow, there are so many.
Because I've seen this so often,I almost know it by hard almost
every line. I had to pickone, though, so I went with
I went with the the one thatI thought was the most interesting. I
don't know how else to describe it. And that is ineffable quality, very

(01:16:34):
good, and you've got that ineffablequality. Chris uh T J. Jackson
Bay is here. His quality isvery effable, and we love it.
What do you think of this one? Man? Oh man, this episode.
I cannot talk enough about it.So I'll have a lot of stuff
for things left and said, butfor right now, A couple of points

(01:16:57):
that really jumped out at me isthe ready room. When Data made the
comparison, you know, to replacingall human eyes. Really, what he
was doing was calling out a hiddenbias in piccard because the card, you
know, it was like he kindof took a step back and said,
you know, you know, woefor a moment. You know, I
didn't think about it like that,and uh, to Pacara's credit, rather

(01:17:19):
than get defensive and try to defendthat bias, you know, he recognized
and addressed and said, I needto rethink, you know, how I'm
looking at what's happening here. AndI think that's an example we could all
learn from. Also, you know, when Data was speaking in his defense,

(01:17:40):
one of the things that he saidwas that the substance and the flavor
of the moment would be lost whenhe was making a comparison. And you
know, that made me realize thatData understands and intrinsically what a soul is
and has one. And you knowthat's something we kind of you know,
thought about before when Doctor Graves replacedhim. But when Doctor Graves was downloaded

(01:18:05):
back into the computer, it wasjust information. So there's some factor to
you know, the construction and experiencethat Data has that makes him alive.
That's not just regular data. Seewhat I did there, Data Data,

(01:18:26):
And someone mentioned this, I thinkit was eve that doctor Pulaski was at
his going away party, but notonly that, you know. So you
know, for all the non Pulaskifans out there, I'm a Pulaski fan.
Data quoted Pulaski when he was talkingabout you know, life is rarely
fair and so uh. Not onlyhas Pulaski run in this relationship, but

(01:18:51):
Data reciprocates, and so, youknow, I think that's more points in
favor of doctor Pulaski for those thatdon't like her, based on the fact
that they started off in a littlebit of a rocky relationship, all right.
Second to last, when Ricker hasgiven his presentation and he takes Data's

(01:19:13):
hands off, I thought that theactress that played Philip Levoir did a wonderful
job because she kind of jumped andwas shocked, and the look on her
face was like, you know,my god, I ordered Ricor to do
this. I did not think hewas gonna go this far. Uh and
uh and and so just without withouta line, without you know, anything,

(01:19:34):
with just the camera on her youknow, she was able to to
just kind of sell that moment forme, and I thought that was exceptional.
And this course, you know,makes mention, of course, this
episode makes one of the mentions ofmy favorite subjects, which is metaphysics.

(01:19:58):
When LaVoi is summing things up,she says, this case is dealt with
metaphysics. You know, it's it'sdipping into subjects that that that are just
you know beyond you know, blackand white, you know, letter of
the law, you know, typeof stuff. And I'll add more and

(01:20:18):
things left unsaid. But I haveso much to say about the guiding and
Piccards seeing that I won't even startinto it here, but I'll you know,
I'll end with a line kind oflike Chris did. And this is
one that always gets me when Iwatched this episode. Uh, and it's
in Piccards, you know, whenPicard is basically you know, slamming the

(01:20:39):
door on this case. He asksmatics, you know, what if data
meets your third criteria, even inthe least, which is consciousness, what
is he then? And he turnsaround to everyone and says, do you
know? Do you do you?And and that's it. That's it,
There's no question after that, soI'll end on that and more later.

(01:21:01):
Great stuff. Thank you very much, TJ. Look, it's doctor Susan
v. Gruner. Hello Susan,welcome back. It's been a little bit
of time we missed you. Whatdid you think of this episode? Well,
let's just start right from the beginning. Can you see this, she
says, But I just make thatclear right now. I love this episode.

(01:21:27):
I love the storytelling, the waythey layered it, or it's relevance
within the whole idea of what theywere talking about. What I mean specifically
is they start with the poker gamewith doctor Pulaski playing poker with Data and
Ryker and everybody. That is justgreat. It shows their friends, and

(01:21:51):
I just love that they showed Datapacking and how he is packing the book
and the little thing with Tasha,all the things that mean something to him.
He's thinking about this, so they'rethey're getting us set up for the
rest of the show. I thinkthis show should be required watching for certain

(01:22:15):
people in the United States right now. It's relevant today and people need a
little reminder of some things. Andthat's all I'll say about that. But
it was a great episode. Ilove guning in her purple stuff. Purple's
is such a great color for her. Purple's just a great color period.

(01:22:39):
But yeah, it's well done.Very star Trek loved it, absolutely love
it. Purple in your Hair isawesome too. By the way, for
anybody just listening in, Purple's greaton Sue as well. My is live
in Tokyo. What's up? My? What did you think of this?
One great episode? But it's alwaysbeen very hard for me to watch,

(01:23:03):
and now thirty four years after itsinitial release, doubly so, we either
have not learned or as a society, have willfully ignored the need to consider
all of our citizens as equals.This episode sought to be relevant social commentary
in eighty nine, and it was. What's a tragedy is that racism in

(01:23:24):
the US has not only gone onchecked since then, but gotten far worse
and more sinister. Couple that withthe increase in social awareness regarding gender identity
as a spectrum. Yet the lawsin the US make life nearly unbearable for
people who identify differently than their sexassigned of birth. I think the quote
by Matos says it all. He'slike rights, rights, I'm sick to

(01:23:44):
death of hearing about rights, andGuidan's quote takes us back to the days
of legal slavery in the US aswell as to the concentration camps in World
War Two. You don't have tothink about their welfare, You don't think
about how they feel, whole generationsof disposable people. Her acting is amazing,
but one thing you could not hidewas the intensity of emotion as she

(01:24:04):
was speaking about this. The clenchingof her right temple tells us all we
need to know about how she feelsabout that. When she's speaking those lines,
it was just she conveyed it rightthere, with that temple pulsing right
there. Persistent misgendering of bimatics ofdata was incredibly painful to watch. I
wanted to throw something very heavy atmy TV. Yet again, this could

(01:24:29):
have been a court of cis genderpeople trying the case of a transperson,
but as it was, it wasa court of white people trying the case
of a silver skinned individual. Maybein another thirty four years, America will
be able to hold its head uphigher than it's entitled to do today.
But we need not only hope,we can continue to spread the love and
true kindness is seen every day inthe hearts, the words, the deeds

(01:24:49):
of the people that participate in thisseventh will community. This microcosmim is what
the whole country should be like.So I guess insummation, great episode,
very lacking social response. That's it. Great stuff, Thank you very much.
My uh Carrie Schwent is here akaCrafty Bear. Your thoughts, so

(01:25:15):
so many, so many thoughts.I have a few fun tidbits that I'll
say for afterwards, including why Ipitched this particular T shirt, but we'll
save that for later. I hadn'twatched this episode and probably a really long
time. The pretty much the onlystart Star Trek series that I really rewatched
on a regular basist was Voyager.I hadn't really done very many rewatches of

(01:25:40):
Next Gen Now. I had almostforgotten like a lot of the details of
this, of this episode, andproud and because of going through all three
seasons of a Card and then goingthrough the Next Gen episodes in depth,
the way we have been and theway I do when I take notes on
literally every single scene, it liketakes me four hours to document one episode.

(01:26:05):
Yeah, I'll have to show youguys sometime. But I was unprepared
when I when I watched it thefirst time before, I took my notes
of just the emotional roller coaster thatthis episode takes you on, and the
scene that really the one tiny littlescene in it has no dialogue whatsoever.

(01:26:27):
That kind of encapsulates that roller coaster. Is when Riker's doing his homework for
the hearing and he's pulling up dataschematics, and he sees something and he's
like, I can use that thatallowin me the case, Oh crap,
that allowin me the case just thatwhole emotional roller roller coaster that he goes

(01:26:48):
on. And the only toast toastersI want that are around those Those are
the cylons on Ballastar Galactica. Thoseare the only toasters. And even and
even in that show they used thatas very much as as a slur towards
the metal versions of the cylons,and that that whole series kind of relates

(01:27:14):
to this episode relates to this episodetwo. But I will finish by going
a bit philosophical, and I presentfor the defense the following exhibit D for
data. There is no easy wayto measure a man. So many facets

(01:27:36):
we must understand, even with noemotions. How does one show devotion and
become wiser than we began? Stuff? And I'm prepared to measure all sorts
of things with my background. Wow, not touching it had to bring a

(01:28:00):
little funny h and also shout outto Ronald D. Moore, uh,
showrunner of Battlestar Galactica. Good knowledge, Kerry. What do you think of
the hello? Oh, this isa great episode. I'm going to keep
it light though, because I startedtaking notes and as soon as the courtroom
stuff starts happening, I kind ofjust known out because of how good it

(01:28:25):
is. I it's crazy to me. So this is the flagship Enterprise and
you have the bridge crew, andthis doctor can just get an order to
take one of the bridge crew awaywithout anyone consulting Piccard like that. I
was like, that's that's a littleweird. Maybe they he convinced them that
we could get a bunch of datasand they went with that. I thought

(01:28:50):
it funny during the courtroom scene thatwhen Data was first on the stand and
he listed all of his medals,and Piccard's like, I want to hear
all this. But when Maddox takesthe same seat, he goes all right,
yes, yes, we get it. You're you're a genius. I
thought the music was fantastic. Itreally set the tone for each scene.

(01:29:13):
Like when Data was packing, itwas real light, but as soon as
Maddox walks in, the tone justwent. You could you could feel it
got more intense. Yeah, thepoker scene, Data wearing a visor,
little things like that, it's hilarious. He's just he's the card guys,
so he's got the visor on.And I've heard a lot of great lines,
but my favorite line came from aCard when he said, I've been

(01:29:36):
trying to make sense of this gobbledyguok, but it's beyond me. But
yeah, great episode. It's anice to see you all. M hm,
great scene, you two. Greatshirt. Isn't gobbledee gook a line
from Jeez, the movie with theChocolate Factor, Oh it is. It

(01:30:03):
is a fairly common British word.We do use that, is it?
Yeah, it just means sort ofall jumbled up, that doesn't make sense.
Oh that's gobbledygook. Yeah. Withoutgobbledygook, I wouldn't say a thing.
Uh, it's an easy like helpinga little too much. True,

(01:30:29):
I'll bring it down a little bit. I'm gonna put myself on mute.
Please never Faith, howel is here? What's up? Faith? What do
you think of this episode? Sohistorically this is not one of my favorite
episodes, I think, especially watchingit as a as a young child.

(01:30:54):
T J give me a minute now, I'm coming from it from Data.
Data is my bud. You know, I'm three years old probably at the
time this was first airing, andData was Sorry guys, but but Data
was the coolest thing out there atthat time, and I was totally in

(01:31:16):
love with him, and so tocome in and try to attack Data was
not happening. And so I'm comingfrom that point watching this episode fresh after
a few years, and it definitelyhit different, and I really appreciated the
touchstones to some pretty you know,memorable sci fi, like written sci fi.

(01:31:44):
Some of you guys probably can givebetter titles than I could right off
the top of your heads, butI think some of the most memorable things
rewatching this episode were like looking atMaddox and thinking about how how can you
stand against someone joining Starfleet in thefirst place, and then once they're in

(01:32:08):
Starfleet, now that you your propertyof Starfleet, that that logic doesn't pan
out for me. I also reallyloved that little moment where that I definitely
missed until this rewatch where Data saysI gave my word and it hit me

(01:32:30):
it never happened, and I waslike, oh my god, i't know.
You guys probably got that, butthat was my first like, oh,
that's so sweet, but yeah Idid. I did the math too,
Chris, And definitely Data is fasterthan my iPhone by a lot.
So there we go. Because he'syeah, oh, very good, great

(01:32:59):
stuff, Thank you, Faith,Golden Scott. What's up? What do
you got for us today? Thisis the first time I have watched this
particular episode in so extremely such somany years, particularly since we have seen
season one of the Card. Soboy, do we know what is coming
to Madox in the distant future.We also know what he does do regardless

(01:33:21):
of what he learns at the endof this episode as well, and as
Faith was saying, do I didpull a lot of the similarities from some
Golden Age sci fi with particularly likeAsimov's robot stories that led into Foundation and
a lot of his questioning on whatmakes sentience and what makes a living being,

(01:33:44):
And there's some Clifford Simic stuff inthere too, as well as some
like Bradberry's Marshall chronicles. Really likeasking the questions of what is human?
You know, human is a verybroad term in this but I do find
that this is really the episode.I will go ahead and admit that I
don't relate to data as much asa lot of other folks do, and

(01:34:05):
I know that that is definitely youknow, data spock odo does. A
lot of people can can grab onto relate to data, but this is
the first episode where I feel likeI really do catch what's going on,
and I like that it does soeasily lay out empathy right in front of
you because at the very beginning ofthe episode direct of course data is of

(01:34:27):
course, of course, and thenyou're pissed by the end of it because
you're like, they better leave himalone, leave him away. So I
love the gradual show it. Don'tsay it, show it throughout while they
are you know, there's plenty ofdialogue and stuff. But yeah, the
whole episode great. Definitely. Iwill say that this is so far my
favorite episode of the the series,and I think it's up there with inter

(01:34:47):
Light, which we'll talk about later. Stay tuned for that one. Good
stuff. Thank you gold Do.Scott Jason Ogan is here from a odds
somewhere. What do you think ofthis episode? Hi, everybody? Uh
to me frankly that this is aStar Trek classic, probably up up there

(01:35:09):
with the best of the mall.It certainly comes down from, you know,
from the lineage of course of dramatistsStar Trek has done before, certainly
from court martial of the original seriesin the Menagerie, and it's it's certainly
not the last time Star Trek hastried to sometimes not so successfully with a
matter of perspective and sometimes really successfullywith the Drumhead, which I think is
probably one of maybe my favorite nextGen episode. But if we'll get to

(01:35:32):
that down the line. A lothas been said about it and some details
for later in terms of, youknow, how the script turned out,
and beneath what I've been saying,actually for a lot of the episodes of
the second season, was surprised thehell out of me is how much doctoring,

(01:35:53):
how much great doctoring has been goingon into the scripts from I guess
their early versions to the last andthis is actually no for I mean,
it's a great script by Melinda's notgrass, but I think, you know,
this is quite a bit of interestingdoctor went on there. I think
the scene with the card and Guynanwas rewritten almost entirely. It's not like
Gudness copped at all. There wasa lot more about sort of this relationship

(01:36:15):
between the Cardinal Levois. They sortof had this kind of a literally a
lover's relationship. There's a lot moreof that in the script, and that's
probably why this whole thing about thesixty man is there. It's in the
original Script's in there, and itfit a lot more from that perspective,
because that's a lot of what theywere talking about. But again, it

(01:36:35):
just turned out to be a classic, and I think the way was doctored
up a little bit and the wayit turned out, Instrumentous said of the
performance are great. I mean,most of the time, I'm not a
big fan of the meat potatoes typedirecting, and here it certainly was.
And I guess for courtroom drama whereyou basically sit in a room, and
this could be actually done as astage play if what we wanted to,

(01:36:56):
And there's more of a station platetype thing. And obviously to see I
would love to watch that on stage. This would have been terrific to just
kind of sit there and experience somethinglike that. And I think the performance
it's terrific. I think Patrick isgreat on us. I think there's a
lot of sort of passion in here, and certainly, you know, freaksis
performance. I mean, I knowthe sort of reaction when he learns that

(01:37:16):
you know, he's about to dosome damage to data, that's actually in
the script actually tell it says thathe's supposed to react that way. Actually
the data's cap is also in thescript and just kind of interestingly described.
And but I found it really interestingas Pulaski's presence in the poker game,
it was not the original script wasput in there, and and her lines

(01:37:38):
were actually spoken by O'Brien telling thoselines got taken away from him and given
to doctor Pulaski, which is great. I think her presence there was treadis
and I think it was important.And the last thing I'll say is,
you know a lot of times whenthings are cut from an episode or from
the movie h you know, theslowly down pacing there aren't exactly great.

(01:37:59):
But if you watched the extended version, I think it really sorts asks this
quite a little, quite a bit. There's a lot more in terms of
character that goes into it. It'sjust a tremendous episode, and I think
you know, the way it turnedout, both in terms of performances and
in terms of the way of thescript was finished, was absolutely great.
And I enjoyed the tremendously the firsttime, the second time, and however

(01:38:19):
many times I watched and certainly nowgreat stuff. Thank you very much,
Jason oakin the Matt boardman is here? What's up, Matt? What do
you think of this one? Hey? This is you know, this is
a fantastic episode. I don't knowif if anybody else had this, probably

(01:38:41):
did. But back in the ninetieslate nineties, there was they did a
digital version of the Star Trek Encyclopediathat had little video clips and this courtroom
scene where where Picard is you know, doing the do you do you was
on there and it was one thatI used to watch over and over because
it was I don't know, it'sit's such a powerful moment to me.

(01:39:05):
And today as I was watching itthrough again, it reminded me of a
few good men, which is whichis a favorite movie of mine, and
I you know, I love thatthat final interaction where where Colonel jessp just
loses loses it right and and Ifor some reason was reminded of that today.

(01:39:26):
But another quick thing, I rememberback in ninety four when Next Generation
was about to go off the air, they did a series of episodes that
were voted as the fan favorites,and this was one of those episodes that
that was in that group of episodes. But there's just I'm sure everybody has

(01:39:46):
talked about so many things because clearlymy timing is not digital, and I
showed up a half hour late,and uh so I don't so there there
are a few things that I'm surethat I missed, But I don't know
if it was discussed where the nameof the title came from, which I
thought was interesting because it popped upas a little like you know, did

(01:40:06):
you know? On Amazon and itsays the title comes from a statement by
Plato which said the measure of manis what he does with power. But
then it goes on to say thatthe direct source for this episode, however,
is most likely doctor Martin Luther KingJunior's version, which he said the
ultimate measure of a man is notwhere he stands in moments of comfort and

(01:40:29):
convenience, but where he stands attimes of challenge and controversy. And that
that hit me. That was reallyreally powerfully because I mean of things that
everybody has talked about in relation toa defining moment of how as as human
beings, as as the federation,how do we treat this group of you

(01:40:55):
know, this synthetic life, youknow, and and is that not a
reflection upon us as a society,how we choose to treat I don't know,
I'm weird. I choose even myAlexa. I'd like to say thank
you and everything too, because theday that you know, our robot overlords
come over and take over, Iwant to be among the you know,
the ones that they choose not toeliminate. But but I I just I

(01:41:19):
don't know. That has always beensomething that has been that I was raised
with, that that has been instilledin my soul. Is that that you
know, a reflection of who weare is and how we treat other people.
And and then one last final thingto me, this is one of
the most significant things of this episodeis is when everything is said and done.

(01:41:42):
Look at how data treats maddics.I mean, here is a man
who wanted to take him and disassemblehim, and you know, dump his
core memory and and do whatever,you know, with the very distinct possibility
to destroy and eliminate data from existence. And yet when everything is said and
done, Data walks up to himand he says, you know what.

(01:42:05):
I find that there is a meritand what you have proposed, and I
am curious to see where things gofrom here. And and that to me
is it's a lesson in forgiveness.It's a it's a lesson that you know,
I think a lot, and Idon't want to get into politics and
stuff like that, but but Ifeel like where it's to me that is

(01:42:27):
significant into the world that we livein right now. And I find that
that is amazing. An amazing thingabout Star Trek is that no matter what
year that we live in, there'ssomething that pertains to our current situation.
And I think that there is alesson to be gained there by by treating
people with civility and with forgiveness andwith love despite how they might despitefully use

(01:42:49):
us. And then I mean,and then again, Ryker at the end
there who was injured by what hehad to do, but data, you
know, showed that that love fora riker, you know you and you
know this action injured you, butit helped me and I will forever be
grateful for that. Excellent Thank youvery much, the Matt Boardman. Well,

(01:43:16):
big day. Final thoughts, Deniseand Sarrock. Wow, just like
always, I'm I've got this oneidea going on in my head and then
I listened to you guys, andI'm like, oh, wow, okay,
that's happening. Well this was Thiswas really wonderful for me to be

(01:43:45):
here with you guys and watch thisepisode. This is the first time I've
ever seen it. You know,I certainly have heard of oh look it,
okay, of of you know ofmeasure of a man, the measure
of a man over the years,and so you know, and it always

(01:44:11):
shows up as as one of thefan favorites and so I but I never
had the opportunity or the wherewithal tosit down and watch it, you know,
until until this. And that's thatthat is really a gift for me
to experience. I I really lovedeverything about it, the provocation, the

(01:44:38):
thought that that what we're grappling with, and and the seamless layering of the
issues of you know, sentient beingsand property and how this this comes into
play, how we really put thetwo elements on trial, and it's it's

(01:45:02):
really something that you know, we'restill we're still grappling with there. This
is just an endless sort of evolutionof who we are and grappling still with
these issues. I think having youknow, you guys will see the earlier

(01:45:25):
segment with Melinda Snodgrass who wrote this, and it was really illuminating and I
don't want to I don't want togive any spoilers, but you know,
the fact that she came out ofyou know, the blue here with this
script and just just broke a lotof barriers and held her own with such

(01:45:46):
a powerful piece of writing was youknow, was was was really uh,
you know, something to behold.She's tremendous and you guys will get a
chance to see her so yeah,it for me too. It it introduces

(01:46:10):
something that will that will be groundedforever in the kind of lore of Star
Trek the next generation, and thatis the relationship with Data and Tasha.
It it by by by him holdingonto that hologram and as as a significant

(01:46:35):
piece in his life. It reallyit'll it'll you know it bookmarks on the
other end of you know it ofPicard. You know, we'll we'll see
how it all kind of comes togetherthat and and resolves a lot of what

(01:46:57):
I couldn't do in the final hMy hologram it delivered in Skin of Evils,
So it's sort of it sort ofputs puts a nice bow around that.
Uh. And I hadn't seen that. I wasn't aware of that,
you know when when Ryan, whenyou called me and said, you know,
you should come come on for ameasure of man, because there is

(01:47:20):
there is an element of Tasha youare and I went, is yeah,
so. But but much more thanjust showing that hologram, it really signifies
how this relationship is part of whothis you know, this this who what
this show is about. You knowthat Tasha is still very present. So

(01:47:43):
it was it was really wonderful tokind of see that and know that mm
hmm. Well, I'm just gonnaexpand on the the Dreadscott decision, which
which was really the thing that kindof led to the Civil War and in

(01:48:10):
the Dreadscott decision. The Supreme ChiefJustice Attainey. He wrote that, you
know, the Court rule that peopleof African descent quote are not included,
and we're not intended to be includedunder the word citizens in the Constitution,

(01:48:34):
and can therefore claim none of therights and privileges which that instrument provides for
and secures the citizens of the UnitedStates. Further went on to say that
quote, a perpetual and impassable barrierwas intended to be erected between the white

(01:48:58):
race and the one which they hadreduced to slavery. Now that's the quote
from the Chief Justice of Supreme Courtat the time, mentioning that there was
supposed to be a perpetual and impassablebaring between the races. And you know,

(01:49:18):
that made me think about rights beingstripped away. It made me think
about the feeling of not being includedand feeling hopeless, and I felt that
data kind of encapsulated those feelings.When Picard, you know, said to

(01:49:41):
him, well, this is thesituation, and you this is what the
deal is, and he says,well, I guess I've been reduced to
only one option. I think thatwas the line that he gave and that's
the problem is being reduced to onlyone option in life and only have one

(01:50:02):
road that you can travel, andthat's that is what handicaps or restricts us
from being able to be ourselves andbe free when you only have a certain
length you can travel and you're notallowed to divert from that length. And
I think they address that kind ofthat mentality and how it has long term

(01:50:26):
ramifications, which they addressed in thisepisode talking about what this precedence would mean
going forward in the future. AndI think that if we think about our
actions in a way that we arethinking about kinds of precedence is being set
in the future, then we canbe more responsible about how we behave in

(01:50:53):
the presence. So I think that'san important correlation that we've made in this
episode. Are Strock dropping bars?Right there? Man? Very good?
You have more now, that's it. That's it, all right, we'll
collect ourselves now for a minute.That was amazing. Thank you, sir

(01:51:16):
Rock. All right, and thankyou Melissa Eve, Alison, Chris t
J, Justin, Carrie, mySue, Faith gold Do, Scott Jason,
the Outrageous Ogan, and the MattBoardman. Thank you all for joining
us, and thank you to DeniseCrosby were coming back to co host again.

(01:51:43):
We are forever fortunate any time I'vemissed you all. Oh my surprise,
I'm a little rusty. I'm alittle rusty, so for Denise,
myself, Strock, Melissa and ofcourse mister Aaron Eisenberg. Thank you all
very much for joining us, anduntil then, always remember the seventh Rule.

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Iconic | With Melinda M. Snodgrass & Denise Crosby | TNG 2.9, "The Measure Of A Man" | T7R #241

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Iconic | With Melinda M. Snodgrass & Denise Crosby | TNG 2.9, "The Measure Of A Man" | T7R #241