Phoenix | With David Zappone | TNG 5.21, "The Perfect Mate" | #348 - The 7th Rule -- A Star Trek Podcast with DS9's Cirroc Lofton

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Creos and Vault Minor have agreed to a ceremony of reconciliation.
Riker makes it a policy to never open another man's gift,
and Beverly offers a penny even though she doesn't have one. Hello, everybody,
and welcome to the Seventh Rule with Sarak Lofton. Hello, Hello,
Brooklyn Dodgers number one fan. My name is Ryan T. Huskin.

(00:21):
Today we are doing a review of Star Trek the
Next Generation Season five, episode twenty one, The Perfect Mate.
Story by rene Etcheveria and Ruben Letter. Teleplay by Rubin
Letter and Michael Pillar. Maybe It's Leader, directed by our
pal Cliff Bowl. This was April twenty fifth, nineteen ninety two.

(00:42):
Where were you? We've got a very special guest today, everybody,
can you believe it? Star Trek documentarian. You know all
of his Star Trek documentaries, so many of them. His
name is Dave's oppone. How are you today?

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Dave?

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Thank you, Ryan, and thank you Sarrak and Sarah. You
of all people, you know the talents of Renee Atvaria.
I mean, my god, what a writer.

Speaker 4 (01:07):
Yeah, yeah, fantastic writer. You know. He went on to
do a lot of stuff for Deep Space nine. Yeah,
and you know, we're always going to have tremendous praise
for the work that he has done. And this this
episode is you know, it's right there with me. I

(01:30):
thought it was captivating and interesting. I didn't find myself
kind of like saying, Okay, this is how when is
this going to end? Type of deal. I thought the
performance was great in the writing was great in this episode.
What about you?

Speaker 3 (01:46):
Same here one hundred percent. I have a soft spot
for Renee. He was in our writer's room, of course
on DS nine, the doc.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
Everybody at Home with Dave's opponent, of course, is the
executive producer of What We Left Behind, the Space nine
documentary The Captain's the Upcoming Well Current.

Speaker 3 (02:06):
I have said my life still kicking for what We
Love a Spock.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Yeah, so many things. So anyway, you were saying about
Renee and the writer, Well what Ira?

Speaker 3 (02:19):
Because I'm such good friends with Ira. Ira loves Renee,
and Renee really shines in this and Sarah correct me
if I'm wrong or Ryan, But I think his first
episode was The Offspring.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
I know he did do that one. I don't know
if it's his first I'll check.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
I believe it was his first, and I want to
say it was a spec and it just set the
template because you had a lot of testastererone in that
DS nine room. Anti Ng to.

Speaker 1 (02:52):
An extent confirmed the offspring was first.

Speaker 3 (02:56):
Was this sensitivity and without being maudling, And that's what
I thought this episode pulled off more than anything. But
I gotta tell you before I forget my favorite joke
and how it got past the censors, I don't know.
In ninety two she's hits on Riker in Rikers in

(03:20):
her quarters and Riker doesn't say a word, just Halo four,
you know, because I think we all knew what he needed.

Speaker 4 (03:32):
Yes, I got that too. I caught it and I was.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
Thinking, wait, what what was it that he did?

Speaker 4 (03:39):
Oh yeah, okay when he breaks from.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Oh yes, and he said when he says I'll be
in Holidak four, I agree. I wrote that on my notes.
I was like, oh my god, I can't believe and
actually in my notes what he's gonna do in Holidack
for But I'm not going to repeat it here. Of course,
that's outright.

Speaker 4 (04:01):
He had to blow off some statement he was He
got way worked up on that. Obviously, he's like Riker
to Bridge forget. Whatever's going on right now.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Is that that is quite possibly the only time in
Star Trek history that a joke of that nature has
been made.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Certainly in the original, the classic Star Treks.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's the only one. I mean
maybe lower decks, I don't know, maybe.

Speaker 4 (04:30):
Lower decks, but but but certainly, Yeah, how that made
it pass? You know, all the executives, all the the
double checking that goes on.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
Well, I think it's a testament to Jonathan Franks because
he was so subtle about it. It wasn't like I'll
be four nice and subtle and calm, so I.

Speaker 4 (04:56):
Mean, it leaves a little to the imagination, right, So
it's not right on the nose, it's it's it's just
off that you can just say, oh, I know what's going.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
On, but Jonathan don't. Such a phenom Jonathan Freaks is
such a phenomenal actor that he told us everything we
needed to know in that scene with his eyes.

Speaker 3 (05:18):
His eyes exactly, I thought the same thing. His look
and Patrick Stewart too, They could do so much just
with their face, their expression without saying a word.

Speaker 4 (05:31):
And you know initially, so you know, obviously Dave. You
know about Riker's sexual prowess and how.

Speaker 3 (05:41):
Not personally.

Speaker 4 (05:43):
Not personally, but we've seen we've seen the episodes. He
definitely he definitely not shied about pulling the trigger. And
I thought, I thought in this moment, I was like,
this is a bad thing, right, Like, I was like,
oh God, this is bad for Riker. Please keep it away,

(06:03):
because I could see you can see it right away
from the like literally from the first close up that
he got where his eyes kind of wide. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:11):
And the other thing was Data was a riot. What
does he say? Things were getting a bit a Bollian.

Speaker 5 (06:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:20):
I was like, I don't even know that word, but
I wrote it down just so that I could look
it up.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
I knew the word, but who did it take? Is
interesting because if you think about it, this is now
a sturdy Data could outfight Wharf, yes, I believe, but
it took Wharf to disperse those aliens. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (06:40):
Well, Data is not as intimidating as Warf.

Speaker 5 (06:43):
No.

Speaker 4 (06:44):
He may be stronger, and he might, but he's so
you know, polite, matter of fact and just robotic that
he's not going to be able to project that kind
of intimidation that Wharf does.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
Yeah, definitely, so does Michael Dorn. I mean, he's such
a nice guy, but boys, he he's got an intimidating
presence like Avery.

Speaker 5 (07:06):
Uh.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
There are just certain people that just intimidate and but
without trying, and Michael's one of them.

Speaker 4 (07:14):
Michael one of it. I thought something was interesting in
that I don't know if you caught this same thing,
but you know, with the makeup job on this Kamala
character looked very much like the trill spots.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
Exactly on deck we did. I notice that, I said,
is she a trill?

Speaker 1 (07:34):
That was the first trill, even though we saw different
makeup on a trill in an earlier season of Next Generation.
It's funny that they basically just turned the trill into this.

Speaker 4 (07:46):
Yes, and the only thing you guys Scoop.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
Were interviewing LeVar Burton with Michael Westmore on Wednesday, and
I will ask Michael if there was any connection, all right?

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Was the trill?

Speaker 4 (08:01):
It has to be. The only difference that I saw
was that the Spots went towards the back. They came
down the side and went towards their back, as opposed
to dax Is going down her side all the way so,
but still all.

Speaker 3 (08:15):
The way down. I think we found out in one.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
Right, but they looked identical otherwise in nature.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Pattern, yes, yes, yes, and where they start from like
the Emma from here coming down. So initially I thought
this is like a trill Pet character. I was slightly confused.
But then, of course, you know, what I was highlighting
in this particular observation was the attraction that eventually becomes Dax,

(08:44):
and Wharf was kind of essentially alluded to in that
small scene there of with the growling and data in
that bar at ten forward. It was kind of like,
that's the kind of person that Wharf is attracted to.
He likes the spots, you know, and eventually, I mean

(09:09):
also Brunette, there's there's several things that are you know,
she's tall.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
She was very tall, and so I think.

Speaker 4 (09:19):
I think we Wharf's type is this character which eventually
becomes Dax. I thought that that.

Speaker 3 (09:25):
Would have worked. But I'll ask you, guys are fanboy question,
what did you think of in season seven Wharf and
uh Troy getting together and then by nemesis Riker and
Troy are getting married.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
Dave hasn't seen that yet, so you'll have to tell
you next year, we're going through that nine episode.

Speaker 4 (09:52):
So we're we're watching it. Yeah, yeah, we're doing it.
We're getting it done.

Speaker 3 (09:56):
Look, any time you guys want to, I'm like Star
Trek nerd to the nth degree. So anytime you need.

Speaker 1 (10:02):
Help, that's another TG episode we just did.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
I need I need to actually help with a little
reminder on the offspring. Remind me of.

Speaker 1 (10:12):
Well that was when Data had had a child. Remember
he created that child and she she died in that
same episode.

Speaker 3 (10:23):
Her new found emotions and again I'm gonna I'll give
you a spoiler. I like you. You guys are two
of my favorite people in Star Trek. By the way, uh,
Michael Westmore is most proud and let's and Brian you
can define, you can discuss Michael Westmore who he is
is most proud of that makeup. I don't know if

(10:44):
you remember there was a non gender robot version.

Speaker 1 (10:49):
Right we had that actor on our Yeah, Leonard Croft,
we had him on our show. He was amazing, and
so Michael Westmore was most out of that. Is that right?
We've had Michael on our show a few.

Speaker 3 (11:02):
Times, absolutely most proud of that.

Speaker 4 (11:04):
Wow, that's cool, Okay, So that's interesting because we just
recovered reviewing another episode Cost of Living, Yeah, with the
Bubble with the Bubble Yes, And in that episode there
was a dancer that was semi I guess partially are

(11:27):
almost completely nude, but had a body paint full. You know,
something like that is something I would think that Wes
Moore or or even the alien in that that had
a nose that wrapped around the back of his head.
There were some interesting aliens in that. I think they
won an Emmy a couple of means for that makeup job.

Speaker 3 (11:47):
Michael Westmore has one Academy Award and don't quote me,
I believe nine Emmys.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, yeah, we just got news and got I wish
I could. I promise you guys when Wes Moore comes out,
I'll come on.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Well, Dave, why don't you tell everybody what you're talking about?

Speaker 4 (12:05):
What?

Speaker 1 (12:05):
What's Wes Moore?

Speaker 6 (12:07):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (12:08):
Michael Westmore is an Academy Award winning makeup artist who's
five uncles before him. So Michael's seven eighty seven and
doing great. By the way, all every single studio from
the thirties on was run by the makeup department run

(12:31):
by a wes Moore. So we're talking Gone with the Win,
We're talking the Ten Commandments. I mean, Jerry Lewis film,
you name it, it was a wes Moore and so
Michael and Michael started out on The Munsters believe it
or not with Butcher Patrick and he worked on Star

(12:51):
Trek Serrock. You remember seventeen years. I think, yes, not
that you were there for seventeen years, but all the series,
all the movies during the TNG era. And he is
just a phenomenal man. And I was interviewing him for
what Project Voyager to What You're Wearing to the Journeyman Love.

Speaker 1 (13:18):
I'm trying to lean into the Wesmore documentary.

Speaker 4 (13:22):
There's several documentaries.

Speaker 3 (13:23):
Ye yes, but I love them all guys. You know
they're all still selling, They're all successful. I'm very happy.
What shocks me is studios don't seem to want to
do them, and it seems to be left to me
and Ira to do these things, and they're nothing but
success successful. But Michael Westmore, we're doing a full documentary

(13:47):
called Makeup Man and Ryan. When does when does this
episode drop?

Speaker 2 (13:54):
This is going to be.

Speaker 1 (13:56):
Well, it drops twice. The first segment. This one drops
in the very towards the end of May, mid to
end of May. Then the thing is going to be
out in a month later.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Can you show a trailer? Of course, all right, I'll
send you a Wesmore trailer. But we have had in
so rock you'll get a kick out of this from
your cast. We had Jeff Combs, we had Armine Shimmerman,
we had Terry Farrell and again unfortunately you didn't make
the cut because you really warn a makeup.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
They didn't need to touch that beautiful face.

Speaker 3 (14:37):
Our human characters didn't fare so well. But we have
every single TNG actor except for Marina because she's in London.
But it's my back door TNG documentary. But as I
started to say before, we just got a yes from
two non star Trek huge A listers, so it's more

(15:02):
than star trek.

Speaker 1 (15:03):
Can you tell us who they are? Yet?

Speaker 3 (15:05):
No?

Speaker 4 (15:06):
Oh yeah, yes, no, we can't spoil the rock.

Speaker 3 (15:10):
You know you can't you know, tell it's on cell
you Lloyd or tape. Yeah, we really have to be careful,
but let me just say they are. If you if
you for three sorry three, if you researched his career,
you probably have a pretty good, guess.

Speaker 4 (15:28):
Yeah, yeah, Michael wes Moore, it has worked if you
just look at some of the pictures that he has
done in films, and he's worked on some amazing projects.
So I'm sure there's a multitude of actors that not
only familiar with him, but are more than willing to
celebrate him and his work because you know, it helped
them in their career as well.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Correct, and I have I met Shatner's people yesterday. We
were donating a whole bunch of his crew jackets to
the Hollywood Charity Horse Show, which is at the end
of I highly recommend people go. And he donated because
they love my daughter, She's five, an original Merry ground horse, Oh,

(16:13):
just to give her to be just because they're great.
So I can't say enough about Michael and to the
Journey that's I'm working on sales on that now. I'm
hoping for a Fathom release, which means it'll be in
theaters all over the world. Reviews have been terrific. I

(16:34):
got the entire cast, with the exception of Jennifer Lean,
who retired twenty years ago, unfortunately, But yeah, everything keeps
keeps moving.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
That's pretty awesome. Everybody go check out the Voyager documentary
of course, something that I had the pleasure of working
with Dave on this. What a delight that Ryan.

Speaker 3 (16:57):
Yes, hang on, Ryan, kudos, Thank you. Ryan us is
responsible for the most successful crowdfunding documentary campaign in history,
which was pretty awesome. My friends, Rock is a professor.

Speaker 1 (17:14):
That's right. This guy's doleing alcohol.

Speaker 4 (17:19):
Let's let's not just uh, you know, speak.

Speaker 3 (17:24):
I can imagine our mutual friend Avery Brooks is more
than proud of you.

Speaker 4 (17:29):
Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, he's always been. But you know, I
I do want to just talk about that uh, you know,
achievement that Ryan was able to do with the Voyager documentary.
And and I'm glad that it's become, you know, something
that you know, has gotten to its final stages now

(17:49):
and people are are, you know, eagerly anticipating. So congratulations
on that. Well, what's what is the normal time frame
that it takes you to you know, go from start
to finish on a on a project like a documentary.

Speaker 3 (18:07):
Well, Shatner was a task master, So that was a
year essentially NonStop. Shatner broke no delays. But to give
you an example, Leonard died Kniemoy during the filming of Spock,
and unfortunately we had a delay, but it's still We

(18:29):
got it done in a little over a year Iron
Eye Joe, because we had he had Outlander, I had Spock.
We took six years for that. Well, this one's five,
but we also had a two year LA shutdown. We
had rights two strikes, so it was very very difficult.

(18:53):
But it's done.

Speaker 1 (18:54):
Mm hmm. That's awesome. So and many more to come.
I'm looking very much looking forward to the Wesmore documentary.
But Dave, since we only have you for a few
more minutes, let's talk a bit more about this episode,
because there's something that I've been curious about since before
we even hit record, but I didn't want to ask
until we actually did. My question to you is, you're

(19:18):
like a lifelong Star Trek fan. You've seen these episodes
a million times. I mentioned one word about an episode,
you named the episode. So my question to you is
when you first saw this episode, you had a certain
impression of it, and subsequent times after that then you
watched it again just now for this review, what has

(19:43):
changed as far as your perception of this episode? Your
opinion of this episode what have you noticed anything new
or appreciated anything new from it?

Speaker 3 (19:52):
Well, one thing, it's kind of general. I had a
talk with Jonathan Frakes, the two of us personally, and
he couldn't believe that my five year old daughter watched
every single episode of TNG And what he said was,

(20:12):
what about the pacing? Like kind of kids today? But
what I told him is that when people forget more,
so I believe than the newer series. I know that
might get me in trouble, but certainly not DS nine.
D S nine was a family. They're a family. She

(20:33):
responds to the family aspect. Even in this episode there's
some adult overtone tones.

Speaker 7 (20:39):
But.

Speaker 3 (20:42):
The reason why she loves these shows is their family
and there's no swear. I just got to ask this.
I did another podcast yesterday and people are like, why,
I'm Patreon, are you not dropping the F bomb? I said,
you know what, I'm a dad. I grew up watching
Star Trek with my father and I want to be

(21:02):
able to watch something with my daughter. And we turned
on the new book Card and I love Patrick Stewart,
he's a personal friend. So it is Franks and the violence,
the swearing. I can't watch it with my daughter, and
to me, I don't like that. So one thing about

(21:25):
the Perfect Mate is you can watch it with the child.
You can explain the issues and they're delicately dealt with.
But that would be my main observation, and I think
that held true all the way through Deep Space nine
as a matter of fact, and Voyager and enterprise.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
I was waiting for enterprise.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
Come on, look, I'll get I will be taken in
an alley and beaten up the decon chamber, which, by
the way, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you guys on
the spot. We kind of want you to be on
the show. I know the leader has already spoken about it,
but the four of you I think would make a

(22:08):
great episode.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
A ton of fun. Unfortunately, so Rak doesn't want to.
I know, Yeah, I would love of course. No, we
love that, we love Dominic, we love we love Yeah, anytime.

Speaker 4 (22:22):
Anytime we're ready to make that.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Yeah, I want you guys on it.

Speaker 4 (22:25):
I want to talk to you, Dave about the observation
you made about mister Reine at Varia's and that and
that is about the emotional uh sensitivity that he has
and that he brought to Deep Space nine and now
into this episode and also to the episode Offspring, And
I think that's a very great observation. But I'd like

(22:46):
to ask you, you know, because you of your personal
relationship with him, what do you think it is about
him that has this level of sensitivity to emotions, to
to these kinds of stories that don't deal necessarily with
you know, with the fighting and rough and tough, Yeah,

(23:09):
but more towards you know, the emotional state of a
human being and what they're, what they're you know, what
their goals are in life, if they're happy in in
those at that position. It seems like Renee has now
in these in these first two episodes, has really holed
in on that. What do you think it is about

(23:29):
him that does that that emphasized that?

Speaker 3 (23:32):
Well, Sirac, I think we as men, three men on
this podcast get a really bad rap and I think
we all have that innate sensitivity. Believe it or not,
my favorite episode of you have you guys done the
original series yet.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
We're actually doing it with Walter right now.

Speaker 3 (23:51):
Yeah, So it depends on which one you're talking about.
We just interview Walter at his home. He told me
what a I got stories I could tell you off
the air, no, I think we like. My favorite episode
of the original series is The Paradise Syndrome. M uh
what a beautiful episode where Kirk falls in love and

(24:13):
loses a child. I mean, how does that not get you?

Speaker 1 (24:18):
See, we haven't seen that. We haven't seen that one yet.
But almost a little.

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Bit like the m Path the Empact. You can cut
this out the EmPATH. The whole episode is that three
of them, the Big Three, sacrificing one of them trying
to sacrifice themselves for the other. Uh my, have you
gotten half a life yet? On TNG with David Ottigan Styers.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
I believe. So let me check all these all these
names season season one question you yeah, yeah, we did
that one.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
I mean this the pivity rock. I just think we
all have it in us, and it's a question of
whether we're willing to show it. And Renee was I
was from the Bronx. As we know, Robert hewet Wolf
is from Waterbury, Connecticut, my hometown.

Speaker 4 (25:12):
Which is you're not getting any lovey dovey stuff from Ira.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
I could tell you that no Ira and I had
screaming matches, but they were always creative, always creative. And
we always made up after. But boy do we have
our share.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
Well, he's passionate about about his God. Yeah, that's what
I respect him because he's going to defend his point
of view. He's going to argue his case, but he's
also willing to to be convinced. If you have if
your argument is better than it, you bet, you bet,
but you have the courage to put it up. Though.

Speaker 3 (25:54):
I think we're just as men. Maybe we get the
reputation we're afraid, but I think we all have the
same emotions in us.

Speaker 4 (26:02):
Yeah, I felt like it was a great Yeah, this great.
This episode was great for Picard.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yeah, he was phenomenal. Yeah, it gave.

Speaker 4 (26:12):
Him a chance to be human to me, for lack
of a better word, because sometimes he is almost more
robotic than data sometimes, you know, just in how he's like, Nope,
I'm not going to be emotional that I have to Nope.
But here he was like you can see he was

(26:35):
fighting and resisting and you know, and yeah resilient.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
You guys. Again, I'm sorry because we got to go.
But one one interesting anecdote. We interviewed Patrick at his
home in England for the Captains.

Speaker 1 (26:50):
At his great energy great second, thank you, And.

Speaker 3 (26:54):
I mentioned in conversation just that I'd seen him on
Broadway doing this one man show for or a Christmas Carol.
You know, Charles Dickens and Bill and I were leaving.
Bill was in his usual grumpy mood, and Patrick ran
out of his home to let me hold the first

(27:17):
edition of A Christmas Carol. Oh, just because I mentioned
that book. So that is the kind of man Patrick
Stewart is.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Hey, can I tell you real quick?

Speaker 3 (27:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:28):
So we had Jonathan Frakes on our show a few
weeks back for our five hundredth episode, Conundrum. We had
them for Conundrum, great awesome episode three. The reason I'm
telling you this is because I mentioned to him one
of the parts of that interview with the Captains, because
he told us about how, you know, Patrick Stewer was like,

(27:49):
what all supposed to have fun and whatever like that,
but you guys actually covered that in The Captains And
Patrick Stewart tells the story and William Shatner stops and
he says, they changed you, and he's like, yeah, they did.
And I remember when I watched that back in the
day the first time, I was like, that was that
kind of blew me away. I was like, wow, he

(28:09):
he actually Patrick Stewart spent interviewed thousands of times, but
you could tell something clicked in his mind where.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
He was Let me give you again a thirty second
story on that, so believe it or not. Patrick. Jonathan
Frakes was my first professional interview for Star Trek in
twenty ten and it went great, went well, you know,
how do you not get along with Jonathan Frakes. But

(28:39):
he made it a point we're walking in the hallways
so rock you remember those hallways behind the you know,
the private hallways for the talent, And he said, hey man,
great interview, and that stuck with me fifteen years later
because who else would give that kind of affirmation a director?

Speaker 4 (29:00):
M hm?

Speaker 3 (29:01):
Just what Jonathan is a father or director? So uh yeah,
a lot of good stories. But okay, last question for
me and then you guys can wrap up. What's your
favorite season of Star Trek.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
Well, right now we're on we've done all the Deep
Space nine, We're in the second season of the original series,
We've done every single episode of the new stuff. We're
on the fifth season of Next Generation, So that's the
caveat there.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
This could be my favorite. By the way.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
Along, A lot of people say, season five, what do
you say strong for me? I think I think it's
season seven of Deep Space nine for me. No offense
to Terry Farrell. I'm not trying to say. I mean,
I really just like seasons like four through seven of for.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
There is no bad Deep Space nine number one.

Speaker 4 (29:50):
Yeah, what do you got say? I say I got
season five.

Speaker 1 (29:55):
Met A lot of people say that one number one,
and a lot of people say season five of Next
gener Season five seems.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
To be the hospital.

Speaker 4 (30:02):
It's been the best so far.

Speaker 1 (30:04):
So on her way out right now, because I just
before you go, Dave, I've got to ask both of
you the same question. What did she mean when she
said that she bonded with Picard? Are we supposed to
think that maybe they humped or something?

Speaker 4 (30:18):
What?

Speaker 1 (30:18):
I didn't because she was like.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
No, I think she has a window of that whatever
that gestation period that they were calling, and that's at
some point if within that whatever forty eight hour window
or whatever the timeframe is, she has to bond with somebody,
and I think that time ran out and she just

(30:41):
bonded with Picard.

Speaker 1 (30:43):
Because I was like, I thought that he was a gentleman.
Everything was great and he left. Everything was cool. But
then when she said the bonded thing, I was like, wait,
are we supposed to like wonder like, did they or
didn't they? Okay, I got to make sense.

Speaker 3 (30:53):
Typical writing it. She knows that she's going to have
to unfortunately suffer perhaps for the rest of for life,
being with this uric guy because she's bonded on Patrick
got it.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
So she's in a regular marriage like everyone else.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
It was it was a timing thing. We'll cut that
one out in the edit. All right, we better run
before we say any any worse things. Dave's a pone
executive producer of four fifty five films. He loves Buicks,
he loves Star Trek, and he loves sharing Star Trek
documentaries with the world. Thank you very much, mister David Francis.

Speaker 3 (31:31):
Thank you. I can't wait to see you both in Vegas.

Speaker 1 (31:34):
I hope definitely on everybody sticking around. We've got way
more to talk about. We'll be right back on Seven
Guys Rule and we'll see you in Vegas. Everybody. Hi, everybody,
Welcome back to the Seventh Rule with Sarak the game Changer,
Loft and Ello. That was a lot of fun with
Dave's Apone could talk to that guy for hours and hours. Everybody,

(31:56):
if you see him at a convention, say tell him
him your favorite Star Trek documentary that he has done
of the many that we talked about, and buy him
a beer or shake his hand, pat him on the shoulder.
He does more for the Star Trek community than almost
anybody I know.

Speaker 4 (32:14):
Out of the ones that I've seen, though, I can
say that I enjoyed a pretty much all of them totally.
So like What We Left Behind is a plus. Spot
was one of the best documentaries I've seen. Loved that too.
I've learned a lot of stuff about that spot, you know,
live long and prosper hand signal that was in there.

(32:36):
And then of course the Captain's documentary was you know,
was great.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
So it was way more gripping than I expected. That
was the first one I saw. I was like, I
just kind of turned it on one time just to
kind of see real quick before going to bed, and
I was like gripped. Especially yeah, that part with Picard,
you know, I should say Patrick Stewart and and the
part with a was just amazing. It was like because

(33:02):
it was at his place in New Jersey. It was beautiful. Anyway,
talk about that another time, because it is time for
the Trivioids of the week. Everybody, Creos and Vault Minor
have agreed to a ceremony of reconciliation. The Enterprise stopped
at Herod four to pick up a group of stranded miners.
The Captain dines alone. The dolphins are on deck seven. Kamala, wait, Kamala. Now,

(33:26):
I'm gonna forever say that wrong. Kamala could sense Captain
Picard's authority. Garuth was loved by Creos and Vault. A
riker makes it a policy to never open another man's gift.
Ludugial gold is the purest in the galaxy. Beverly offers
a penny to Picard even though she doesn't have one.

(33:46):
Picard offers to take off the uniform for Beverly, and
doctor Crusher's shoulder is always there for Captain Picard. All Right,
So I feel like this is kind of a tough
episode because it feels like this poor lady is a
piece of meat. It feels like she doesn't really have individuality,

(34:12):
and so I kind of dreaded this episode a little
bit now upon because I hadn't seen it in twenty
years now upon watching it now. Of course, as you
guys mentioned, Renee at Chaveria really has heart that he
puts into episodes. And one thing that I was reminded
of right away when she was basically saying like I
was bred for this, and they said, well, we can

(34:34):
basically save you. You don't have to do this, and
she said, no, I want to do this. This is
who I am, This is my identity, this is my life,
this is what I want to do. It actually reminded
me of the gem Hadar because they were born and
bred to fight, and there have been many times where,
you know, instances where the Federation Federation people would say, well,

(34:55):
you know, we know what's better for you, you don't
have it, and they're like, no, this is this is
who who I am, this is what I do, with
very rare instances of them not being that way.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
But I'm very.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
Curious to know Sak your impressions of this episode because
I'm not really one hundred percent sure how I feel
about it.

Speaker 4 (35:16):
Well, you know how you feel about it, I think,
is you know, really the voice that doctor Crusher was
playing in this episode totally. She was playing that voice.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Of the audience.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
That's not right, the audience, right, this is slavery, this
is forced servitude, this is captivity, This is doing something
against somebody's will. And so those were the arguments that
were put forward by you know, doctor Crusher, and which
did in fact penetrate into you know, pickcards thinking and

(35:56):
his perspective, because those words wouldn'ts tape his head, right,
He was those you know, thoughts were planted in his
psyche and he had to kind of wrestle with them
and answer for himself whether that was truly the case, right,
And that's where we see the crux of the story
get into him making those suggestions and probing questions and

(36:20):
you know, trying to essentially liberate her, you know, giving
her the opportunity to claim asylum or to you know,
be liberated from this responsibility or this obligation. So he
was basically telling her, hey, you don't have to do this.

(36:41):
You have free will. You know, I will guarantee your
safety and your your ability to choose in life what
it is that is best for yourself. I'm not going
to let somebody else choose what is best for you.
So if you want have freedom of movement about the ship,

(37:02):
I'm going to delegate that. So and so he was
doing his best to offer the sense of security that
would be necessary for her to claim, you know, herself,

(37:23):
as a victim of something. And you know, you find
that in domestic violence cases, for example, sometimes the person
of the spouse is being abused is scared to say something,
right because they're fearful of their own safety and their
own life totally. And so you want to give them

(37:45):
the sense of security, like it's okay, you can tell me,
you know what's going on. And you do that with
other situations too, involving children, for example, you have to
give them a sense of security that it's okay to
tell whatever it is that they need to tell. And
I think Picard was doing his best to say that
in this situation, like it's all right, the Federation's here,

(38:10):
they're regardless of what are the customs are and the
culture that you come from. I'm going to offer you
this blanket of security so that you have a sense
of asylum.

Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yeah, I was just gonna say, it's basically asylum.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
You know.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
Now she obviously refuses it because you know, in her mind,
it's not just what she was bred for, but it's
like the highest honor to have her life being worth
basically ending this century's long war between two worlds. That
makes her basically the most important figure in those two
people's history. Now, it's kind of a shitty way for

(38:50):
it to go down, but in her mind, she's like,
I'm a savior. I take this duty to be the
highest of importance. Even though now she has bonded with Picard,
as you and Dave explained to my slow mind, and
that time has passed. Now she'll never really fully be

(39:12):
able to bond with this guy, even though that's what
she does. But she's still going to see this thing
through because this is of the utmost importance. So she
has a very like noble and honorable kind of story
of sacrifice in a lot of ways, you know, like
it's too easy to just say, well, that's what she
was bred for. Like the fact of the matter is,

(39:33):
she does have free will, and she is choosing this
even if the timing didn't align and the connection doesn't work.
So she's actually a very you know, honorable type of
character with a lot of integrity and you know, a
lot of sacrifice and I thought, by the way, Famka
Jensen really acted the hell out of this. There are

(39:56):
some moments where she would just up and make a
smile or just say a line, and I was like, Wow,
she's really good, even this early on in her career.
And of course I thought she was amazing in The
X Men, so I'm already a big fan of hers,
but I was like, Wow, she's really nailing it.

Speaker 8 (40:18):
Yeah, and you know, Riker was trying not to, but no,
I would say that I thought she did a fantastic
job in this.

Speaker 4 (40:30):
There were subtle things in her performance that was just fantastic.
Her eyes were full of hope and positivity, and I thought, wonder,
So I thought she did a very great with this role,
you know. And just to speak a little bit to
what you were talking about with, you know, the kind
of decision she was left with at the end. By

(40:53):
bonding with Picard, she essentially in by these the same
virtues and sensibility and intellect that he has, right, and
so whatever he would do in that situation is basically

(41:14):
what she decided to do. And that was I'm going
to move forward to ensure the piece of all of
these people, and this you know, these two warring factions,
and that would be essentially what Picard want to do,
would you know, see piece as a resolution? And so
I thought that was another interesting thing because you know,

(41:35):
she hinted at the end, I hope he likes Shakespeare.
She's basically saying, I'm like you now.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
Yeah, yes, that's very good. That's the line that stuck
with me too. That also shows to us that because
the whole time, the audience is supposed to think, yeah,
but it's not real. She's flirting with Riker, but it's
not real. It's just what she's made to do. She's
flirt with Wharf, but that's not real. It's what she's

(42:02):
flirting with, those Ruffians and ten for it. She's flirting
with that's just what she does. But that made her,
you know, the most human that that was the line
where she says, look, what you and I shared was
actually real, because you know, for the rest of his life,
he's gonna question, you know, he he clearly fell for

(42:23):
her in a way, and he's gonna question was it
real or was it just what she does? You know
what I mean, like, did she actually mean it? And
she's basically telling him, yes, it was real, this is
the one that got away and you know that I'll
remember you forever kind of thing.

Speaker 2 (42:42):
You know.

Speaker 1 (42:42):
It was actually a really good line.

Speaker 4 (42:44):
It was a very beautiful story. It was a nice
love story for the card. Great for him to have
this kind of a love story without actually, you know,
it being obscene and you know, rise a type of
situation or or something more lustful. I think this was
actually the resistance of lust, which made it a beautiful

(43:05):
kind of story. Picard is going to always wrestle with this.
And the other thing I thought was noticeable was that
Doctor Crusher was the one that he confided to when
he had these feelings about her and was talking to her,

(43:26):
you know, talking to doctor Crusher about how he feels.
And I thought, what is it with the guys on
the Enterprise that run to the girl that likes them
to tell her about the girl the other girl that
likes him. It's so weird to me that this keeps
happening on this ship.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
But those guys are clueless, they don't know what they
don't know what they're doing. But that is a very
good point. And when he says to Beverly, he's like, oh,
can I take the uniform off. I noticed wording that
Renee used. He didn't say can I take my uniform

(44:04):
off for a moment? Or let's dispose of the uniform?
He said, can I take the uniform off? That's vague
enough for her to take it as if he's saying
can I take your uniform off? Or can even though
he's meaning can I take my uniform? You know, it's
like vague enough. You know that's word play for you
keep it a little vague worded a little bit differently.

(44:25):
And then of course she went like John lukeer, what
did she say? She said anyway, I don't remember what
she said, like a one word response, but anyway, that
was that was very funny. I wish I could see.

Speaker 4 (44:40):
Well. She also said my shoulder is here for you anytime,
and I was like, okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
To cry on of course. Oh yeah, she says Captain.
He says, can I take off the uniform for a moment?
And she says, Captain m anyway, look, it's time we
better not talk about scoring and getting into the home run.
Uh the episode. Sarrockloften, who gets the home run of

(45:09):
today's episode?

Speaker 4 (45:10):
In your opinion, I'm gonna give it to the guest
actor who played Kamala. I thought that she did a
great job. What is her name.

Speaker 1 (45:23):
Again, Femka Jensen or Jensen, Emca Jensen. Yes, she's a
Dutch actress, Famka Jensen.

Speaker 4 (45:33):
Okayamka Jensen was captivating, beautiful and just did a great
performance overall. It was interesting enough that with her performance
I was still watching and she was able to have
chemistry with everybody who she interacted with on this show,

(45:57):
you know, as far as the regular cast members. With
her chemistry with Data, the chemistry with the War or
chemistry with Riker and with Picard, I thought, we're all fantastic,
And so, yeah, she is the home run hitter.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Yeah, I agree, she's the one. I didn't think she
was going to be because I remember her being in
this episode, but I barely remember the episode that much.
I kind of just remember the point of it, and
I didn't realize how much she really carried this episode
in a lot of ways, and that there was so
much more depth to her character than I expected or
that I remembered. So I was surprised towards the middle,

(46:38):
towards the end, I was like, Wow, she's really just
carrying this episode. Patrick Stewart was great, of course as usual,
but yeah, home run of the episode to Femka Jansen.
Of course. All right, here are some other people that
can carry things, doctor Anne, Marie Siegel, Eve England Out
in Wales, Eve at Blackman, Tom TJ. Jackson, Bay Out Missouri,
Titus Muller, doctor Mohammad or and Neil O Palatte, Joe Balcearadi,

(47:03):
Mike Goo, doctor Stephanie Baker, Carrie Schwent, Faith Howel, Edward
Foltz aka Crewman Guy, the map Boardman, Chris McGee, Jake Barrett,
Henry Unger, Allison Leech Hide, Julie Menasofi, Jed Thompson, doctor
Susan V. Gruner, Glenn Iverson, Dave Gregory, Chris Sternet, Greg
K Wicks from Cassandra Gerard, Chuck A, Chris Garris, and

(47:23):
of course Jason m Okin. All right, everybody stick around.
We will be right back with way more of this
stuff on the Seventh Rule Free for All next. Well, Hi, everybody,
welcome back to the Seventh Rule with Sarak Lofton. This
is the Free for All with Melissa Alungo.

Speaker 9 (47:42):
Hi there and.

Speaker 1 (47:43):
Her cool Women of Sci Fi shirt By the way,
Jason m Oakin is here. He's got a cool background
as always. Cassandra g has joined us. Alison leech Hide
has an awesome Voyager documentary shirt Good Timing, Got Mine.
Mark Zutkoff will say funny things. Maybe Chris and April

(48:05):
are in an RV in northern California and we're all jealous.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
T J.

Speaker 1 (48:11):
Jackson bay Out in Missouri just changed his name to
two five seven point four.

Speaker 10 (48:16):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Barry Schwentz is also known as Crafty Bear. Greg Kenzo
is in Hawaii, and Chris McGee is the answer when
people say, who are five people that have never been
in my kitchen? I'll cut that out.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:37):
Jake Cisco guesses the IMDb score.

Speaker 4 (48:47):
I don't know. I'm just gonna say seven four around
a seven to four.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Mark Eaton style, Mark Eaton got it? Oh, that's also
Victor wen Binyama nowadays. No, yeah, three, seven three four?
Anybody else have any guesses that doesn't already know?

Speaker 11 (49:05):
I'll go seven ten.

Speaker 12 (49:11):
Eight, But just because I'm a fangirl, I say seven
point eight, but I'm sure it was somewhere between seven
point two to seven point five.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
You guys are all tickling around it. You nailed it
mode that you guys are right, Melissa nos seven point three?

Speaker 13 (49:28):
Greg got it, gregod excellent.

Speaker 2 (49:32):
I just did the price is Right method.

Speaker 1 (49:37):
Just looked it up on IMDb. All right, did we
get a non appearance mentions? I didn't catch any? Okay,
what about some kind of or some sort of Christmasgee?

Speaker 14 (49:51):
Sure enough we did get one. At one point said
is this some sort of bribe?

Speaker 1 (49:57):
Oh? Yes, very good. All right, Malis Longo, will you
please get a start off on the right track by
telling us what you thought of this particular episode.

Speaker 15 (50:10):
Yes, I actually enjoyed this particular episode. It did leave
me feeling a bit sad, and I will tell you
why in a minute.

Speaker 16 (50:21):
But I will tell you why I did enjoy this episode.

Speaker 9 (50:24):
Because I would have to say that this is a
character study obviously of both Bookard and Kamala Kamala Kamala
Kamala which means lotus in sanscript. I had to look

(50:47):
it up because I think it's such a pretty name.
But anyway, Yeah, and I love character studies. I think
they're probably my favorite episodes. Yes, they're could be some
cringeworthy stuff, and I definitely have some Nippicks.

Speaker 16 (51:06):
But I love that we get to see.

Speaker 9 (51:12):
That Kamala brings out this side of Picard that we
don't normally get to see.

Speaker 16 (51:19):
She brings out his kindness. We get to see it
in a way that, yeah, as I said, we've never seen,
really seen before. And I love that there's there's a
contrast in in the way different cultures approach relationship and
and then you know, ownership in a sense of other people.

(51:45):
I love that that we got to see Kamala's not
only her outer beauty, because she is stunning, and the
dress that she wears is stunning. I want that flowy dress.
But but we also get to see her intelligence and
her curiosity, and her wit and her charm and so

(52:08):
many things that make us who we are. There's a
warmth about her that transcends what she tries to be
for other people. Whether even though she's a metamor and
she's an EmPATH, she's definitely her own person. And I
think fromke her first acting role, out held her own

(52:30):
against Patrick Stewart, who was fantastic in this, and she
was equally as fantastic. I think they both did really well.
I think they both had a lot of great chemistry together.
And then on the flip side, I loved seeing Jean
Luke's relationship with Beverly and their friendship, and I love

(52:52):
the way that Star Trek explores these relationships Beverly and
Jean Luke and Troy and Riker in a non possessive way.
These friendships are authentic. They're they're not trying to own anyone.
They're not trying to impose their yeah ownership onto anyone.

(53:15):
They're they're free to be who they are and explore
life in a very organic and natural way. And I
love that.

Speaker 13 (53:24):
I do think I will provide one little nitpick. I
do did did think that the Frangi storyline was a
bit distracting, and I think I would have maybe liked
to seen Troy, since she's an EmPATH, to have sensed
that maybe Kamala was in the stasis field and being

(53:49):
both empathic, that she sensed that that's where that's how
it was revealed. They could have used Troy in in
that way rather than the Farrangis because that felt a
little bit contrived to me.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
So cool, thank you is it bomb k? That's how
she pronounces it. I was always saying Tom.

Speaker 16 (54:09):
Cu that's that's the Dutch.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
I was just well, that's the right way.

Speaker 9 (54:13):
Then a YouTube video because I was like, I don't
know how to pronounce it.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
So yeah, bomb k got it. Thank you very much.
And also we all keep saying kamala instead of kamala
because we've been kind of conditioned to say kamala just
the same way. Now, every time I meet someone named Melissa,
I accidentally call them Melissa. I can't get that out anyway.
This has been the names on the seventh Rule. Thank

(54:38):
you very much, Melissa Longo. Jason m Oakin is here.
What do you think of this one?

Speaker 11 (54:44):
Well, it's kind of interesting. Just look a lot of
different episodes. Sort of your view of it changes over time.
It's one thing to see this sort of as a
pretty young person, and you sort of get different things
from it is you get older. One thing that unfortunately
did not get better for me is the Ferengi story.
They're written as sort of these mustache twirling villains in
this sort of a laughing way, and it's actually written

(55:06):
that way. I mean, they performed exactly what's on the page,
which doesn't do the show a lot of justice. And
I think that's what Arman was talking about. You know
a number of times when he went to the deep
space to kind of reverse some some of that, and
you see some of it here. It certainly was not necessary.
I think, you know, Melissa you mentioned, you know, from

(55:27):
Ki Johsen's sort of first acting role, and I you know,
she certainly held her own. I mean, you know, Patrick
is terrific in it. Now, you know, it's just you know,
it's kind of a captivating I mean, one of the
sort of calm downsides. But the episode is kind of
slow and prodding in a way, and it's very it's
shot in a very kind of stationary way. Maybe it

(55:47):
helps you to kind of stop and look at this
because you sort of are with the actors and you know,
the camera sort of kind of bolted to the floor
and you're kind of looking at them for almost forty
two minutes. So you get to experience things with and
I think Patrick's performance is magnificent, And I think in
a way, this kind of a show couldn't have been
done in the first season, maybe not even in the
second season, because the characters have to sort of earn it.

(56:09):
You have to be with the characters for so many years.
I mean, you know that crusher card relationship. It pays
off only after a few years. Otherwise it just doesn't
seem to work. So I think overall it's it's it's
an enjoyable episode.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
It does sort of.

Speaker 11 (56:29):
Bring back different tones from from other things we've seen,
even in the original series or anything from a lot
you know, a lot of troys, even MUDs women to
a degree, and something has been tried again on the
enterprise is in a very very bad way in Precious Cargo.
That that's an awful episode. So I think it sort

(56:51):
of reached a very sort of happy medium here. It's
certainly enjoyable to watch, and it's kind of the sit downs,
you know, kind of slowed down a little. There's a
lot more to say. I'll save it for later, but
it's certainly a worthy episode to watch.

Speaker 1 (57:06):
Great stuff. Thank you very much, Jason m Oakin. All right,
Cassandra g what do you think of this one? Do
you love it?

Speaker 3 (57:14):
I do like it.

Speaker 12 (57:16):
I am a huge Fanka Johansen fan with her work
in English and in Dutch as well. She has a
wonderful series and movies in her native language. But I
will say before I go into wild this episode so much.
I will always say that Star Trek is always beyond tears. Right,

(57:39):
they're talking about sex trafficking and human trafficking, right, let's
be honest with this. But I do love the fact
that she imprinted on Jean lup Picard and it wasn't
just like, oh, here's a guy.

Speaker 5 (57:55):
I like it.

Speaker 3 (57:55):
No, like they had a.

Speaker 12 (57:56):
Lot in common, like she read and saw tons of
things throughout her life and he himself as an archaeology
major and novelist, and so I love that relationship between
them because it wasn't just a guy that she was
brought up to meet and was like here you go,
like just love him, Like even though she did end

(58:19):
up marrying what she had to do for her for
her own culture, but I love that aspect of it
that she imprinted on him and he himself, like I
feel like Jean really loved her as well, but because
of the semantics, you know, of what had happened, and

(58:39):
so yeah, so that's for me, Like I love this
episode the FORRANKI part. I didn't even like it's whatever
for me honestly, but I always love seeing them, you know,
in the picture, but this was more of a human
episode for me and so I I have a lot

(59:00):
more to say, and we'll say that for later.

Speaker 1 (59:04):
Thank you very much, Cassandra g great stuff as always.
Alison Leech High got her Voyager documentary Delta Quad Space
Tours shirt. It's so cool. What do you think of
this one?

Speaker 17 (59:17):
I like this episode the more I watch it. As
a kid, I was just like arranged marriage what E
didn't really watch it, But as an adult I really
like it because Kamala's character is really truly interesting because
we all kind of do this where we're all well
kind of tailor who we are with the people we're with.

(59:39):
You know, we're different with our families, We're different with
our children, our parents are friends, different segment of our friends.
And here she's using her abilities to do that to
be I mean, I don't want to say ideal, but
to be the ideal person that this person is talking to.
I was only a little little upset that they said
the line, what was it only men would fight over her?

(01:00:03):
I'm like, I'm pretty sure there are a lot of
women on that ship that would fight for her too.
So just saying but I understand product of its times,
but I really enjoyed that she I think she picked
to imprint on Bacard because she liked who she was
with him, and that's who she wanted to be. And
so she's like, Nope, I'm choosing this and I'm not

(01:00:25):
going to fight it, and this is who I am,
and I understand duty and I think she learned duty
from him from that what she says, and that's why
she was willing to move on and do what she
was born and raised to do. And I think that's
really interesting, and going through that makes more sense as
an adult, because when you're a kid, you're just you.

(01:00:45):
So the idea of being somebody different for each person
you see is I think is kind of foreign. I
love the scene when they're in ten forward and she
is literally changing between the people she's talking to. Think
that's really funny. And I have subtitles on my screen
because a lot of times I work out while I
watch shows, and it said seductive growling when she's.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
Growling at or.

Speaker 5 (01:01:13):
So funny.

Speaker 17 (01:01:14):
And I love the idea of Data being her chaperone
walking around because I mean, you can't win over data
that way, because he might be programmed in multiple forms
and techniques. But he's not supposed to do it right now,
so he's got that. I also thought it was a
great show of character for Riker that he's like, who
wa whoa, whoa whoa, No, not okay for me to

(01:01:38):
do this. Don't care if I want to, don't care
if you want to. I'm leaving. So I thought that
was great. And of course as soon as the Frangie show.

Speaker 9 (01:01:45):
Up, I go Max.

Speaker 17 (01:01:47):
You can recognize that face and Frank make up any day.
And I still think he had the best line of
do you schedule his appointments? Too happy to see Max?

Speaker 5 (01:02:00):
And he always wondered.

Speaker 17 (01:02:01):
So I enjoy this episode more now as an adult
than I did.

Speaker 18 (01:02:05):
As a kid.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Absolutely, that was a fantastic line. Thank you very much,
Allison Leech Hide all right, Mark Suttkoff, what did you
think of this episode? Did you love it well?

Speaker 19 (01:02:18):
I thought this episode was okay when it first aired.
I don't think I was that impressed with fan que
Johnson's performance. Then watching it now, my opinion of it
has improved, but still not a favorite. The crew of
the Enterprise is just too trusting. Do you put just
just put rescued Ferengi in guest quarters and leave them alone.

(01:02:40):
Ambassador Briham tells Captain Picard to restrict the cargo bay
to essential personnel only. But a FERENGI just waltz.

Speaker 5 (01:02:47):
Is it?

Speaker 19 (01:02:51):
No wonder of marriage between those two wouldn't have worked.
Beverly continues to challenge the captain, and she has a point.
But I can't quite categorize them, says prostitution as she
says it's an arranged marriage, which is different. When Picard
visits Kamala in her quarters, both characters are facing the camera.
Didn't realize at first that Kamala was being reflected in

(01:03:13):
a mirror. Later, Picard visits Kamala in her quarters again
and there's a second mirror shot. This time Picard is
flanked on both sides by a mirror Kamala and a
real one. An unusual way to frame these scenes. Ten forward,
As Alison said, Fanke taking on the characteristics of the
alien miners and giving war for a klingon light grow

(01:03:35):
great glad that Data realized he was being punked and
returned quickly to Kamala's side. I loved the scene in
Picard's ready room where Kamala plays to the Captain's interest
in archaeology, a thread that continues to be spun. However,
Patrick Stewart seems not particularly good or convincing at being

(01:03:55):
self effacing. Ambassador Briham is an idiot for telling the
Ferengi that he will alert Captain Picard to their plan,
and he winds up in a coma for days. With
all the medical capability of Doctor Crusher and the Federation,
here's irony. The Vaultese Chancellor Alric a Vault is more
interested in the trade agreements, while Captain Picard is more

(01:04:17):
interested in Kamala. Speaking of her what a wedding dress?
Apparently costume designer Robert Blackman was told to create quote
the most incredible gown a woman has ever worn, but
given no indication of what it should actually look like.
I'd say he succeeded. Kamala tells the Captain she will
never truly love Alric because she is bonded with Picard.

(01:04:38):
I think she actually bonded with him back in the
cargo bay. But if she really understood and in fat
empathically that read Picard's own distress, did she have to
tell Picard that she'd bonded with him? There was a
deleted scene at the end where Picard stopped the wedding
ceremony and took Kamala for his own, and then we

(01:05:00):
see it was Picard's imagination and he actually stayed silent.
They filmed this and it's on the season five blu Ray,
but I'm grateful they cut it. Finally, we have the
stinger at the end where Ambassador Briham asked Picard how
he resisted Kamala's charms, and he simply wishes the ambassador
a safe trip home and doesn't answer the question. Just
in case we missed the point and my home pun

(01:05:23):
of the episode, Kamala was a gift for the Vaultese Chancellor.
She was like a hunting bird hovering around her prey.
Was she a Vaultese falcon.

Speaker 1 (01:05:36):
Imagination? Thank you very much, Mark Zuttkoff, great stuff. All right,
Chris and April are out roughnecking it in northern California.
What do you think of this episode?

Speaker 4 (01:05:54):
I think, yeah, I'm great.

Speaker 3 (01:05:55):
I think Alison kind of slated. She kind of started.

Speaker 10 (01:05:58):
I think she had probably every that I was thinking about,
kind of if I had thunder.

Speaker 3 (01:06:03):
I think she stole it all. It was really well.

Speaker 10 (01:06:05):
She went into all the different things that I thought
were amazing. Probably the only thing that it really hasn't
been talked about that I admired very much was what
the carman was stating, I'm trying to be as dull
as I possibly can in the room and have her,
you know, find him as interesting as at least interesting
as possible.

Speaker 3 (01:06:26):
I really enjoyed that part. And then of course ten
forward like.

Speaker 18 (01:06:30):
Everyone else, Yeah, that was Flensay and I like that,
and I just want to I want to like call
out Kamala's attitude, you know. And there's an aphorism that
I like to use in life for myself and others,
you know, where like attitude is really important. Attitude changes everything.
It's most of everything most of the time, and situations

(01:06:51):
we could choose our attitude that we're going to take,
and a lot of times the difference between people's perspectives
and their points of view are just the attitude that
he has chosen to take.

Speaker 17 (01:07:02):
So for Kamala, she could have chosen to have.

Speaker 18 (01:07:04):
A victim attitude, play the victim and live her life
that way, but she didn't.

Speaker 4 (01:07:10):
She's she's a.

Speaker 18 (01:07:11):
Cheerful heart, you know, she's a she knows she's special
and she's she's duty and service to her people, and
she chooses to live that way. So yeah, attitude is everything,
and I love her attitude and we could all all

(01:07:31):
learn from her attitude.

Speaker 1 (01:07:34):
This has been a really tough episode for me, you guys,
but no, Chris and April Stern, I thank you very much,
very good points. Appreciate that. All Right, t J. Jackson
Bay is out in Missouri. What do you think of
this one?

Speaker 6 (01:07:51):
Well, I mean, this episode is about a slave trader
who calls himself an ambassador, and that's what was Beverly's line. Anyway,
since Mark stole my other quote, I figured out what
good quote Mark. Also, before I really get into it,
I'm definitely more afraid of calling Melissa Melissa than I

(01:08:13):
am of calling any Melissa Melissa. Okay, you know, Cassandra,
you know, yeah, uh, Cassandra hid you know on a
point that really really grabbed my attention, you know, this

(01:08:34):
time while I was watching and and you know, it
made me question, you know, whether Kamala actually had a
choice in this matter, was making a free choice since
she had been uh basically groomed to be exactly this
all her life. And you know, as soon as you know,

(01:08:58):
the container opened up and and the crew knew war
was going on. You know, my reaction at first was
like I'll turn the ship around. Not on my ship.
You know, you guys like one you should have told us.
It was a person like why are you doing? Like
why weren't you just upfront about this so that we could,
you know, know what was going on in our own ship,

(01:09:20):
and to that point, like like, okay, Federation, you're the
Federation and this is like the flagship. You don't check
what's coming in the ship. You just like you know,
you're gonna give somebody a ride and they're bringing stuff
and you don't check what it is. I hope you
don't do that in your car? Do you do that
in your car? You just let people get in and
whatever they got like strow it in the backseat, hope.

(01:09:42):
But don't get pulled over by the cops because what
is that?

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
I don't know.

Speaker 6 (01:09:48):
I don't think anybody's gonna pull the Enterprise over though,
but I mean still like and that, you know, goes
to another point. You know somebody made is you know
okay that this not okay? Not only do you not
know what it is, but you've been told that it's
like sensitive and needs to be guarded, and so like
you can't just like I mean, I can do this
in my house with with Alexa and and tell it,

(01:10:13):
you know, to tell me if there's noise or something like,
you can't do that in the cargo bay of the
flagship of the Federation. Like, hey, if somebody comes in
here that isn't supposed to be in here, let security know.
So we can you know, not have them in the
cargo bay for really a long time stacking crates, climbing
up and doing all kinds of things before we catch them.

(01:10:38):
But okay, there's that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:40):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
What I took away.

Speaker 6 (01:10:42):
From this though, with them, you know, carrying on, you
know with the mission after learning what was going on
was acceptance. And the Federation is really good at acceptance,
almost to a fault. Right, they'll do anything, you know
for peace that they'll just kind of bend over backwards

(01:11:02):
for people, you know, to a point to respect, you know,
somebody else's traditions, somebody else's ways. They have the prime directive.
We're not going to interfere and you know, so you know,
I've been kind of waging a battle in my head, like, Okay,
how far you know do I go with my acceptance?
Because there I can accept you, but I sometimes I'm

(01:11:25):
just not going to accept that in my house or
in my space. I'm going to remove myself from that situation.
Not because I'm judging you, but like no, sometimes sometimes
and you know, so that's what this episode, you know,
left me thinking about. And you know that's a thing
that star Trek does well, you know, when when you

(01:11:47):
can you know, set aside your biases and you know,
look at what's going on. That was my takeaway from this. Okay, acceptance,
but how far do you go? I got a lot
more to say, and so I mean one thing I
do want to point out and Mark kind of talked
about this scene a little bit, the wedding scene, uh,

(01:12:11):
and what really struck an emotional tone with me was
the music that was playing as the camera is just
on Picard's face and you can see like the thoughts
going through his head, you can. You know, Kamala talked
about the barriers that he put up, and I'm very
sure that they were up then or he would have
carried out that kind of fantasy, you know, rescue you

(01:12:32):
know kind of situation that was in the cut scene.
But but I mean I thought the music for that
was perfect, and you know, just nothing else actually needed
to be done. It was it was perfect. Just look
at Picard's face. Patrick's acting carried the you know, carried
the scene. I mean, the weight is going on. Even

(01:12:53):
I was like, kind of whatever with this wedding. The
dress was beautiful, sure, Patrick was the scene there? Uh
and so you know there's that. I got a lot
more to say, Like I said, I'll say it later,
things left unsaid.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
Thank you very much. T J Jackson bout Missira. That
was very ebulliant. Just learned that today. Yeah, Garry Schwent
is here. What's up? Carrie Schwent A k A crafty bear.
What did you think of this one?

Speaker 4 (01:13:25):
I love? I liked this episode a lot.

Speaker 5 (01:13:28):
I'm a major Monkey fan. And as I was putting
together my notes, it occurred to me at it feels
like a TS episode and in a in a couple
of ways, in a good way, in the way that
I'm with what with Walter, I'm very much starting to
appreciate more of the original series. But in the other

(01:13:50):
way of the concept doesn't aged aged terribly well, but
I still enjoy it. That said, yea Monkey and Patrick
do a fantastic job to in in the in the scene,
they've got a great what I thought of It's like
a subtle chemistry. It's not over the top. It's just
it's relaxed, kind of like the way poked Herd and

(01:14:13):
Beverly are sometimes that just sort of relaxed, easy, relaxed,
easy chemistry. And you can have friends, you can talk
to you like that, but you can't still disagree and
still be friends like that. That first argument they were
having back and forth, but then later they had the
normal conversation. But back to Yeah, funky Pat and Patrick.

(01:14:34):
We get to see them again and a lot more
of them of them in the x x Men movies.
I really I'm blocking most of Jean Grace. I'll cover
my camera here for a second. But yeah, yeah, I
love the X Men movies.

Speaker 3 (01:14:47):
I love Vodka.

Speaker 5 (01:14:49):
I think I saw the X Men movies before I
ever saw her in Gold and I. And I was
also reading online that they offered her the role of
Judge Index but he but he turned but he turned
it down, So.

Speaker 1 (01:15:03):
That Rock nailed that one.

Speaker 5 (01:15:06):
Yeah, it would have been interesting to see how how
she would have done with it. But I think it
was around the time that they were doing casting in
that for the Bond movie that she ended up being in.
And he's had a fantastic booby curse. He's been in
a couple of really good horror movies Housed on Haunt
and Hill especially highly highly recommend that one, and a

(01:15:26):
couple of couple of couple of fun things. I mean,
yay Max. I'll hop on the Max Max love bandwagon
because you know, I had to get my furryngdy eyes on.
And if you're ever in the opportunity to meet him
in person, he gives excellent hugs. He is one of
the sweetest human beings on the planet. Get stronger hugs

(01:15:48):
and you then you would think given how given how
small small the guy is, but he's very very strong hugger.
We get our live action and the only live action
apparently mentioned of cetacean on because Jory mentions the dolphins
and likes I am it was Adam Resa or else

(01:16:09):
and I can't remember which. I'm very also proud of Riker. Yeah,
he gets the gets the kissing. He kissed kissed him
so he didn't initiate it. So I'm proud of him there,
and then I'm also proud of him for making like
a bread truck and hauling buns out of there.

Speaker 4 (01:16:28):
I went through.

Speaker 5 (01:16:28):
Several versions of feel like and I just had it
whole bund whole bunds made sense and then straight to
straight to the to the holiday. We will just leave that,
leave there. I love this episode. The I want I
want that dress, the one, the one behind Melissa. I

(01:16:49):
want that dress. That color is gorgeous, the shimmery air
dusn't through a look to it.

Speaker 4 (01:16:55):
I love that I've worked.

Speaker 5 (01:16:58):
I've worked at a fabrics and trying to cut that
fac can be a little bit of a challenge. But
she wears it very very well. And you could see
her early modeling career two that she was doing before
before she started, before he started acting. But she set
up the limerick. I decided, I went over, you know,
rolled through a few few ideas on my head, and

(01:17:19):
then I decided, you know, could poor poor poor Jean
Luke just hit hit his heartbreak and her mentioning about
loving Shakespeare. So I decided to kind of to bind
the two and work a little Shakespeare sha Shakespeare into
the limericks, and see what you guys think of this.

(01:17:40):
When the heart is caught betwixt two old foes, the
drum of duty reminds what the brain knows to succumb
spoils the peace. These new desires must cease. The ache
this heart feels will never be disclosed.

Speaker 1 (01:17:58):
Beautiful, Thank you so very much. As always, Carrie schwent,
all right, speaking of beautiful, Greg Kenzo out in Hawaii,
what do you think of this one?

Speaker 7 (01:18:10):
Like everybody else, I think I love this episode. It
started out where I was like, oh, this is a
sex traffick ache episode, Like immediately, I think I said
that in my mind, and then I wrote it down.
And then as it went on, we're like, okay, we're
explaining arranged marriages, but they are quite similar when you

(01:18:31):
think about it.

Speaker 2 (01:18:32):
To Beverly's point, which I'll get to you later, but it.

Speaker 7 (01:18:37):
Also speaks to the conundrum that we have today of
imposing Western ideologies and morality on other cultures, which I
mean every sociology and anthropology class will you know, tell
you about that. In college, I had the same exact
response as Alison. When I saw Max. I wrote down

(01:18:59):
max esclamation Mark, and it's great to see him. He's
more eloquent in this, even though he's pretty scummy. His
character is pretty scummy. Yeah, instead of like hey you brother,
you get to see him actually say like some lines,
and it's great. They ask all the right questions to

(01:19:22):
justify her presence there, Like at first, I have all
these questions, like one hundred questions that once, like, oh,
what are they going to do here, here, here, here,
and here? To justify her presence there? The card asks
you do this of your own accord, question Mark, She responds,
I was born for it, and I was like, oh,
that's not a yes, as Beverly points out during her.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Dinner with Picard.

Speaker 7 (01:19:45):
But I have to hand into the writers because they
did it did allow for a debate on the morality
of arranged marriages.

Speaker 2 (01:19:50):
Which is what Star Trek does best.

Speaker 7 (01:19:53):
It poses a question and allows you to form your
own opinion, allows people of all ages o their opinions
on these things. Like other people have said, Rikers showed
some good restraint after they kissed. I like what you said,
Carrie about the all the buns out of there. He
gets a lot of flak for his hookups, but the

(01:20:16):
writers wrote him that way. You know, they wanted a lead,
a male lead that they can just stick in a
rom com situation or a romantic situation. And this episode
shows why it can't be bicar. It can't be your
top in command. He can't initiate with any alien species

(01:20:39):
because it just be inappropriate, or it would be seen
as a lot of people as inappropriate. But yeah, I'm
not trying to justify this episode. That seems pretty much
like a male fantasy running wild like but it does
in the writer's event, Sorry about that, bring more people

(01:21:00):
to start the Star Trek fandom, and it could be
seen as doing more good than harm almost finish. I
like that Picard learns new information from Beverly and she
persuades him to delve deeper into the situation. It shows
that Picard's a great leader. Leaders don't know everything. They

(01:21:21):
listen to their advisors, they listen to everybody. They have
an open mind, and that's that's key to being a
great leader in my opinion. It's also they say that
it's dangerous for her to leave requarters, but the first
place we go to is ten forward, Like they go
straight to a bar. They're like, okay, let's you know,

(01:21:43):
let's take her there. But that's beside the point. Let's
say the FRANGI I think, I mean, I didn't really
like their episode, but I think it's they were used
to juxtapposed to the human behaviors that Starfleet. Starfleet have
left behind against their current selves, extreme greed and sexism,
treating women like property makes what Picard and Reiker do

(01:22:07):
seem less less.

Speaker 2 (01:22:11):
Than what it is.

Speaker 7 (01:22:13):
And yeah, to end, Patrick's delivery of the line nothing
lies beneath made me laugh out loud. So yeah, it's
good to give him some comedic lines every now and then.

Speaker 1 (01:22:24):
Thanks everybody, Thanks very much, Greg Kenzo. They breed him
right out in Hawaii, all right. Chris McGee is the
dark Lord. He's in someone's kitchen. What do you think
of this one?

Speaker 14 (01:22:36):
Well, I consider the Perfect make to be a good episode.
I echo everyone else's sentiment about it. It has good
drama and as well acted, including pom Kay's and Stuart's
fantastic performances.

Speaker 2 (01:22:49):
My goodness.

Speaker 14 (01:22:50):
My single relatively minor complaint about the episode is one
that I see now in a different light than when
I was much younger in the nineteen nineties, and after
hearing everyone else's thoughts, this one might be unpopular. Star
Trek is famous for the morality tales and its stories,
one of which has to do with accepting people for

(01:23:11):
who they are, rather than how we might want them
to be or who might want them to be. Galaxy's
Child comes to mind as an episode that drives this
point home. And yet in this episode we have a
character that undermines that idea, effectively the embodiment of male
fantasy becoming whatever the man wants most, and I mean

(01:23:33):
male fantasy because we only see Kamala interacting with men
on this ship, never with women or any LGBTQ crew members.
So yeah, watching this episode now, having long since abandoned
my teenage male fantasy views, I hope I think the
idea behind this metamorph character maybe could have been written

(01:23:53):
or executed a little better. Mark recognized the same nitpick
I observed the Fenghi and the cargo bay. We do
see Ensign Kellogg in the cargo bay with war security team.
I'm sorry I don't have a photo to Papa before that.
I'm not my usual setup right now, and as Ryan

(01:24:15):
has observed, I've.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
Learned a couple of new words from.

Speaker 14 (01:24:17):
This episode pre vocation intentionally vague or ambiguous and ebulliant,
joyously unrestrained. Oh and I love that this episode helps
to convey the deep friendship that has developed between Picard
and doctor Krusher all this time.

Speaker 1 (01:24:37):
Memorable quote of.

Speaker 14 (01:24:38):
The episode is it's what's stuck out suck out to me,
And that is from Riker saying, I make it a
policy never to open another man's gift.

Speaker 1 (01:24:52):
Definitely stuck out with Riker, Thank you very much, Chris McGee.
Jake's final take your random four final take, any final
thoughts on this one's rock.

Speaker 4 (01:25:11):
He went to holiday flo to open some gifts. I think, uh,
I thought.

Speaker 1 (01:25:20):
It was interesting that.

Speaker 4 (01:25:25):
The one of the subjects matter of this conversation in
this episode was trade agreements, and that were actually going
through trade agreements right now, So I thought that was interesting.
Just again, Star Trek uses language and uses terminology that
stays relevant and can still in the headlines today. So

(01:25:47):
I thought that was interesting. I think this uh Commalook character,
you know, she was one bad mother FuMB cut because
killed it. We got to mention of a ballpark in
this episode, which was a little slight baseball reference. I

(01:26:07):
think that's a little Michael Pillar shot out, you know,
just we get baseball wherever Michael Pillar is and so
I think, whoever he can squeeze it in, he does,
and I felt like it was that was because of him. Yeah.
I couldn't, for the life of me figure out what

(01:26:29):
the for RENGI was doing standing on all of those botses, Like,
what was your plan exactly? I just couldn't get it.
I figured if you were going to steal it, you
would have some kind of thing to steal it with.
I thought at first he was getting the cylinder because
he was going to put it in the cylinder and
try to, you know, smuggle it. I just standing on

(01:26:52):
top of those boxes only set up the kicking down
of the thing. But it just felt weird to me. Yeah,
when Doctor Crusher says to him to John Luke, she
says to him, you know about that shoulder that he
might need, She said, it's it's there for you, Jean Luke,

(01:27:14):
it always has been. I was like, are we still
talking about.

Speaker 1 (01:27:17):
His shoulder here?

Speaker 4 (01:27:19):
Okay? But it does speak to the nature of that relationship.

Speaker 1 (01:27:24):
I did.

Speaker 4 (01:27:24):
I did like that that moment.

Speaker 20 (01:27:26):
With them, and then you know, this episode you know,
I thought about a twist that could be done on
this episode, and that would be if the if there
was actually a different.

Speaker 4 (01:27:42):
Character, and that would be like if if the this
gift was actually a male gift to a female leader,
and how that episode would play out amongst the female
characters of the cast. So yeah, that was just played
that out in my head a few times. And then

(01:28:03):
I really loved the shot of Captain Picard backing out
slowly out of the room where he kind of takes
steps backwards and he boon walks out of there because he's.

Speaker 18 (01:28:15):
Like, I.

Speaker 4 (01:28:17):
Can see myself getting written up to HR for this.
Let me just get out of here. Well I'm safe.
So I really like that backup moment. Yeah, and that's
that's pretty much it. You know, this episode did lead
to one song that came out, which was simply trill resistible.

(01:28:38):
All right. No, No, that was very No, that was
very good.

Speaker 1 (01:28:43):
I like it, all right, great stuff as always. That's
it for us. Everybody make your own trill song puns
or Riker Holidack for jokes in the comments below, and
to your friends, and thank you very much to Chris McGee,

(01:29:05):
Greg Kenzo, Carrie schwent T, J. Jackson, bay out In Missouri,
Chris and April Sternet, Mark Zuttkoff, Allison leech High, Cassandra
ge Jason m Oakin, Melissa Longo for myself, Sarrak, Melissa
and mister Aaron Eisenberg. We really appreciate you all and
we want to wish you an awesome day. We'll see

(01:29:26):
you next time on the seventh Rule,

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Phoenix | With David Zappone | TNG 5.21, "The Perfect Mate" | #348

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Phoenix | With David Zappone | TNG 5.21, "The Perfect Mate" | #348