There Are Four Lights! | TNG 6.11, "Chain of Command, part 2" | T7R #367 FULL - The 7th Rule -- A Star Trek Podcast with DS9's Cirroc Lofton

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Cardassia boasts some of the most ancient and splendid ruins
in the entire galaxy. Jevinight is a rare, breathtaking stone,
and most people become ill at the sight of live
test bar. Hello everybody, and welcome to the Seventh Rule
with Sir Rock Lofton.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Hello, Hello, nothing.

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Makes him ill. My name is Ryan T. Huskin. Today
we're doing a review of Star Trek the Next Generation
Season six, episode eleven, Chain of Command, Part two teleplay
by or written by I should say Frank, I bet
to Marco, directed by you know him, Less Landau. This

(00:40):
was September, sorry, December nineteenth, nineteen ninety two. Where were
you and how are you today? Srock?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
I'm doing well, Thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Yeah, that was a confusing So Frank abet Tomato, I
bet to Marco if I'm pronouncing that he did the
story by for the first one, and Ronald y Moore
did you know, wrote the script, but Frank for this
one wrote the whole thing. So this is kind of
his story, it seems. And of course Les Landau, and

(01:14):
this was December nineteenth, nineteen ninety two. Quite a treat
for people that are used to two parters. You know,
ending an episode and then picking back up at the beginning, sorry,
ending a season and picking up at the beginning of
the next season. They only had to wait a week.
This was back to back weeks. Yeah, you've never seen

(01:37):
this before, Sarrack, but I've been waiting for a long
time to hear your take on it. What do you
think of it?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Well, you know, it was a very good two parter.
I enjoyed watching this episode. I did see since that
the language was slightly different you can tell Ron Moore's
style of writing versus Frank style of writing. And where
I thought that reflected the most was in Jellicoe's character. Interesting,

(02:12):
I felt Jellico and the Part one was written a
little bit more ominous, a little bit more confrontational, and
this Jellico seemed to be written a little bit more
understanding and relaxed. And the temperament was I noticed a
change in temperament in tone, a slight change, and I

(02:36):
think that comes from the language and the writing. Good point,
and obviously his actions. You know, I was wrong about him,
so I got to I was definitely expecting to see
that Jellico was incompetent to some degree, so I thought
that it would be revealed either one of two things.

Speaker 1 (02:58):
Well, it depends on who you ask, because Ryko would say,
you're right there.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, But you know, the outcome was favorable, so you know,
we basedly, you know, based things on results, and when
you look at the results, you know he did get
good results from his leadership. But how he went about
and I would you know, that's where the debate is, obviously.

(03:24):
But I will say that I was wrong about two things.
One the level of incompetency that I thought he would
be exposed for, which really didn't come to bear. And
the other thing that I was wrong about is my
gut feeling that in some way or another that he

(03:45):
was co conspiring with the Cardassians. You know, in this operation.
It seemed as if he was walking into a trap.

Speaker 3 (03:57):
Willingly and knowingly and maybe even trying.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
To instigate a war between the Federation and Kardassians. So
I thought, is he really working on direct orders of
Starfleet or is that fabricated? So I had questions like
that in the back of my mind, which I was
incorrect about. And I'm glad to be incorrect about it

(04:20):
because that's also good writing as well, because it keeps
me guessing and if I know what's going to happen,
and it's well, you know, it's a walk a long
story where it's so predictable that it doesn't feel like
I'm guessing and I don't know what's going to happen.
So I think this episode kept me guessing enough where
I was unsure the whole time what was going to happen,

(04:43):
you know.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, and that well too the Admiral Netchev as well. Yeah,
I kind of wonder for a second, what what's her game?
What's going on here? She's a little too confident, a
little too like unwilling to listen to, you know, reason.
But this episode is so famous. I feel like you

(05:06):
may have somewhere in your life heard people saying there
are four lights. I don't know if you've heard it
or seen it, but it is one of the like
top three Star Trek quotes. There are four lights. I mean,
this is an episode about gaslighting in a lot of ways.

(05:26):
The guy is trying to gaslight Pecard. He's trying to
convince Picard that he's crazy, you know, And in that
last line, that's when it was really demonstrated. In the
last scene when it's not just that he wanted Picard
to just say, fine, they're five lights. Whatever, shut up,
leave me alone. Picard said, he started to actually see

(05:51):
five lights. And that's the big that's the big punch
of this episode is that, you know, gas lighters or
when people are gas lit, sometimes it works sometimes that
you start to believe maybe there are five lights, you know,
because there's he's so desperate and he's so tortured and

(06:13):
he's so exhausted that he started to believe it, you know,
and it's just an you know, it's an interesting thing
where you could get somebody to believe anything, you know,
because that's just how our minds work.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Yeah, I mean, I thought that climax definitely was something
that was displayed Patrick Stewart's acting abilities. You get a
really nice, tight close up on him, and his performance
was excellent. I thought the makeup was great. He looked,

(06:49):
he looked disheveled, he looked like a prisoner, he looked unkept.
There was some really good moments there. I thought, facial
expression wise that Patrick Stewart gave us in those performances,
which reminded me a lot of moments that I've seen
Avery Brooks do as Cisco. So there was some you

(07:12):
know resonance there of excellent performances, you know, on certain
levels above where regular actors can go as to a
deeper and more pronounced place where they call on this
you know, emotional impactful moment, and they drawed so much

(07:36):
and they performed it with so much vigger that it
comes from the Shakespeare theater background, and you know, only
excellent actors can pull it off off to that degree.
So I really commend Patrick Stewart for his performance is
really excellent in this episode. But you know, I think
there was a lot going on in this and like

(07:57):
I said, I wasn't sure or what was going to happen,
and so you know right away, for example, I'll give
you an example.

Speaker 3 (08:08):
I thought that.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
When Riker got relieved of duty, I thought Riker for
sure was about to go lead an away team. Ye,
solo mission. All right, that's perfect, that's what I want.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
I'm gonna leave the duty then, cool, and I'm free
to go. I'm free to go.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
I'm gonna go grab a runabout, I'll go grab a shuttle,
I'll get some armament, and I'm about to go look
for Picard myself because it's my guy, and what am
I doing here on the ship getting cussed out by
you all day? So you know, I'm going to go
execute my game plan. And and by the way, I
do believe that certain people would do that. I think

(08:52):
there s Kira would. I think Kirk would.

Speaker 1 (08:56):
Kirk wouldn't even wait to be relieved of duty. He
would just leave.

Speaker 3 (09:00):
You'd be like, okay, see yah, you're in charge, all right.

Speaker 2 (09:04):
But to me, it's like I was expecting that from
Ranker to some degree, because like the last thing I
was expecting was him being in his quarter sitting there
reading the book or whatever, you know, Like, I'm thinking
he's pissed he's getting out ranked by this guy who's
making what he thinks is a bad decision, which is
not going after Percard and trying to send a rescue

(09:26):
team or something. He feels like he basically has given
up on Percard, because he did ask him like what
do you think and he's like, look, man, I know
it looked like he gave up on him, you know.
And they showed the video of the hostage video after
after that conversation, so at that point we weren't he

(09:47):
wasn't sure. Jellico's character wasn't sure if he was alive
or not, and didn't seem like he really cared too much.

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Yeah, there was a little bit of that. There was
definitely a little bit of does Jellico even care whether
Picard is dead or alive? Because it seemed like Jellico
was very focused on the mission and his part in
the mission, and he was not really interested in weighing
other options. Now, you know, of course, as the Vulcans

(10:22):
would say, the needs of the many outweigh the needs
of the few or the one in this case, so fine,
but still he's still a person, you know, so you
know there's a lot, you know, there's a lot there
to unpack with someone like Edward Jellico. Now, of course,
the episode kind of ends, and we know we're kind

(10:43):
of left with, well, maybe Jellico was right. You know,
Jellico did say, oh, and uh, I believe you have
captain Picard, go ahead and release him, but he sure
didn't fight for Picard's life. He was just kind of like, oh,
by the way, you know, let me, uh, I don't know,
I think that Edward Jellico is the best captain in

(11:05):
the history of Starfleet, of course, but he could have
been a.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Little nicer then.

Speaker 2 (11:10):
Yeah, like I said, results wise, he got the results,
and so I kind of had to take back my
animosity towards him. And here's here's what is true. What
is true is that the hunches that he had about
the Cardassian upcoming invasion, hiding in the Nebula, whatever it was,

(11:36):
that was true, and he actually prevented a large scale
of invasion attack of Federation with his moves.

Speaker 3 (11:48):
And so.

Speaker 2 (11:50):
Technically he did do a move which meant the needs
of the many, because this would have escalated into Starfleet
versus the Cardassian fire and it would have definitely cost millions, thousands,
if not millions, of lives would have been lost in
the exchange if it escalated farther. So I do think

(12:14):
Jellicoe deserves credit for executing what his admission orders were,
which I was questioning. I was questioning the authenticity of
his motives, which now I can see that he is
definitely a Starfleet guy. He's you know, he comes from Starfleet.
He's not outside of Starfleet. He's not part of the makey,

(12:36):
he's not in a resistance cell, he's not compromised by
the Cardassians and working alongside them, are in favor of them.
He's actually in his truest essence in defending, representing, and
executing orders on behalf of the Federation and Starfleld.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
Yeah, that's true. He's a he's a get it done
kind of guy. He doesn't just say it, he lives
by it. I guess, just get it done. This is
your mission. If you lose a captain here there, whatever,
you're out there saving the day. In his mind and
his moves were very bold. He was like, I'm gonna
try to out Kardassian the Kardashians. I'm going to try

(13:22):
to out bluff the bluffers. I'm gonna put bombs on
the bellies of their ships, and I'm gonna threaten to
blow them all up. If those bluffs don't work and
he does blow up all those ships, that could also
start a war, you know. So he definitely walks a
fine line. There's definitely a dangerous thing, you know, when

(13:44):
you're dealing with him. Now, everything worked out, but there's
also a world in which everything falls apart, you know,
but it's still you know, it's it's a really fun
and cool episode. And for me the big well you

(14:04):
know what, let me just say, speaking of hunches, you
did have a hunch that proved to be correct, and
that was Data the Brown knows or you notice he
moved into uh, he moved into first officer. Suddenly, new scene.
There he is in red, being like, Hi, I'm Commander Data.

(14:25):
I'm the new first officer. Maybe you uh, maybe you noticed,
but uh, I'm the I'm the big guy on campus now,
Wriker who you know? So you definitely picked up on
the fact that Data was he saw which way the
wind was blowing, and he set his sale in that direction.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
He said that there was a new bosson down. He said, well,
I work for the new boss and this is what
he likes, and I'm gonna make the quickst adjustment. So
Data went right to be in the teacher's pet like
he had the apple pulp polished up at his backpack
and say here you go, Jellico, mister Jellico sir.

Speaker 3 (15:06):
Something.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, yeah, but that was that was cool. I thought
of you. When suddenly a scene opens up and there
he is in red. He looks pretty good in red though, right,
it's definitely a big difference, like it starts.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
It's too much for me. Actually, I just I'm used
to what I'm used to. You know, it was even
hard seeing Troy in and the normal science officer uh
starts the uniform. Even that was like I was like, uh, yeah,
I guess she is technically medical, right, and I wonder

(15:43):
then science like this, she outrked Crusher.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
At this point, she is a lieutenant commander and Crusher
as a commander, so technically Crusher outranks her, but neither
one of them really goes along, you know, the chain
of command, no pun intended. They can both relieve the
captain of duty. They can, so they're the only two

(16:09):
that can really tell the captain or give the captain
an order. They're the only two on the ship. That
was weird, all right, we'll keep going. What was the
last thing you heard?

Speaker 2 (16:24):
No, so you were saying that there's no real like
outranking situation there, right.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
So.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Troy and Crusher are the only two on the ship
that can actually give the captain an order, right, they can.
They can kind of outrank the captain in a certain way,
but they're not really you know, bridge officers per se.
So that's why there's captain you know Picard, then there's
Commander Riker. Then the second officer is lieutenant Commander Data.

(16:55):
Even though Crusher is a commander, so she, you know,
she ranks him in a way, but you know, she's
not in that kind of command.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Does she outrank Troy too?

Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yeah, because Troy is a lieutenant commander, so Pressure technically
outranks Troy.

Speaker 2 (17:13):
Okay, yeah, I didn't. I didn't know her ranking, but yeah,
you know.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
You know what also.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
I liked and which I thought was going to be
the thing that lit the fire under Riker. It was
a great scene. It was when he kind of caught
Jellico alone and he says to him, essentially saying that
he is a prisoner of war because these orders came

(17:43):
from the Federation.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
Right, But the Federation does not want to admit that
he's a prisoner of war because this is a secret mission.
Because so in order to protect the card, they have
to say this was he was going under the orders
of the Federation. But that protects Picard, but then that
hurts the Federation because then that makes the Federation admit

(18:06):
that they committed an act of war by sending this
team over to Kardassian space.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
It was very good you know gamesmanship in this episode.

Speaker 3 (18:17):
I liked it.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
The kind of torturing with Picard right reminded me a
little bit of Duet in the way they were kind
of having this back and forth between each other, just
in a slight way. I know, it's completely different, but
if it's a Cardassian and a human looking person going
back and forth. So, but there was some gazemanship there.

(18:44):
I really liked the way Picard, you know, like I said,
they've been writing for Picard better and better as the
seasons have gone, and this is another example of that.
This is how you write for your captain when you
want to show that he has on the right side
of morality. He makes things, decisions based on a righteous perspective.

(19:07):
An example of that was when the scene with what
was that Goal's name, the one who was interrogating him.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Goal Goal Madred Madrid played by David Warner.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Goal Madrid and he is the real Madrid you know
it capitalist yeah, played by who.

Speaker 1 (19:36):
David Warner who also played kling On Chancellor Gorkon I
think in Star Trek six the movie Star Trek six.

Speaker 2 (19:43):
Okay, Yeah, David Warner did a fantastic job in this
episode as well. I thought he was a great uh
you know, one thing about the Kardassians, I'm not exactly
sure who there writers initially based them off. It seems
like they're based off Russia for example, or some kind

(20:05):
of uh, you know, superpower empire like that, because the
way they were describing the expansion of the empire and
resources and all this stuff. I mean it sounded a
little bit like that. But you know, obviously we all
kind of put our own rejection on what we think

(20:27):
that is, you know, but it's something in the in
the wrong line, along the lines of that. And I
thought what was interesting was in that debate, in that interrogation.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
In that moment, they also came.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
A scene with his daughter. In that scene, and I
thought that the dialogue that followed with Picard where he
talks to him about, you know, why would you expose
your daughter to me in this situation way you were
tearing into me in this prison situation and this level

(21:04):
of disparity and suffering that she can witness firsthand. And
the exchange between them was very good. I mean, first,
he says goal Madrid says to his daughter, he says, yet,
you know, human mothers and fathers don't love their children
as we do.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
Isn't that perfect?

Speaker 2 (21:24):
And that's really this is again, this is why science
fiction is great. It can take something and place it
into a different context, right, because it's the same logic
and rationale why we we hate and discriminate against other
people's because we can find a way to say that
they are not love. They don't do they are not

(21:46):
like us, right, they don't, they don't love.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
Dehumanizing to use a term that doesn't necessarily work with Cardassians,
but they're he's dehumanizing. He's just basically saying, oh, yeah,
but it's like saying fish don't have feelings. It's okay
to kill fish because they don't have any feelings. Oh,
it's okay, cay to torture humans because they don't. They
don't even love their kids. They're not even real people.

Speaker 2 (22:05):
Yeah, And this is a very good logic strand that
people start off on when they want to justify their
belief system of superiority or of of you know, causing
harm on another individual, they can say this is the
reason why it's it's it's so it's so obvious, you know,

(22:28):
And by removing the similarity between us and putting people
in a category of not like you. That is the
exact methodology for beginning the thought process of removing emotions.

Speaker 1 (22:44):
And pretty much all of the horrible things that have
gone on in the world start off with rationalizing it
by saying, oh, this these it's othering, it's dehumanizing. It's
just say oh, they're they're bad people, or they're dumb people,
or they're lesser people, or it's okay because you know,
they're not like us for whatever reason, they're just you know.

Speaker 2 (23:09):
Then I thought, and then and just really just to
close that point, and the comeback for that was for
Cards saying when children are taught to devalue others, they
can devalue anyone. And then he pause and said including
their parents, kind.

Speaker 1 (23:26):
Of putting that knife in deep right there.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah so but yeah, so I like the logic. I
like the back and forth there. We can get into
a lot more than the second half, but I thought
that point needed to be made. That was a great
scene between them, and it also puts the Card in
a light that seems stands on morality, stands on character,
that is, that is on the right side of a

(23:49):
logical explanation. Or evaluation of what he's perceiving.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, this episode, almost more than any other episode, really
shows who Picard is at his core, a man of integrity,
a man of value, amount of sacrifice. When he thinks
that they still have Beverly Crusher, He's like, all right,
keep torturing me then, but yeah, we do have to
jump toward break, so we'll talk way more about it
in just a second. We'll be right back on the

(24:16):
seventh Rule. Hey, everybody, welcome back to the seventh Rule
with sarak loften. Hello, cool hat. All right, here are
the trivioids of the week. As if we even need trivioids,
there's so much to discuss here, let's knock them out.
Gall Madrid is really interested in Mino's korva uh. If Picard,

(24:39):
Crusher and Warf escape, they'll head for the license system.
Cardassia Bose some of the most ancient and splendid ruins
in the entire galaxy. Jeva Knight is a rare, breathtaking stone.
Once children learn to devalue others, they can devalue anyone,
including their parents. The McAllister C five Nebula has molecular
dispersion field. The Picard family would always sing after Sunday dinner.

(25:03):
Most people become ill at the side of live test bar.
Edward Jellico began his career as a shuttle pilot on
the Jovian Run from Jupiter to Saturn and back once
a day, every day. All right, So Picard and goll
Madrid two unbelievable actors, David Warner and Patrick Stewart, unbelievable scenes,

(25:28):
great acting, in fact, such great acting that the very
first monologue I ever memorized and performed was from this
episode when he's talking about his childhood and the Live tastbar. Now,

(25:50):
of course, when I performed it in my beginning theater class,
they all looked at me like I was crazy. I
remember walking off the stage and the professor saint something like, oh,
that certainly was an interesting choice, or something like that
dork talking about why is this dork and a mega
talking about aliens and weird, Like they're just like, I

(26:11):
don't even understand what you're talking about, but go sit down, whatever,
memorize something.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
Congratulations, we don't do science fiction.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Yeah, that's nobody even understands what you were talking about.
But that's whatever. That's just what it was I was
inspired and that's what it was.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Should have gave them a technobabbles then, yeah, the rebrouters
of the main accelerated.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Jordy line would be great. No, But one of the
things that really stood out in this episode is the
card making the point. You know, people simplify it by
saying hurt people, hurt people, which is uh gold Madrid
grew up with a very very very very difficult childhood.

(27:02):
You know, he was starving, he was bullied, he got
you know, beat up, he was doing he was just
trying to survive in the world. And so Picard then
gets it. He's like, this isn't about saving Cardassia, this
isn't about a mission. You're a six year old boy
that was that has trauma and pain and anger, and

(27:27):
you're taking it out on me. And that's when he
says the line.

Speaker 3 (27:35):
What did he say?

Speaker 1 (27:37):
He says it, I'll just find it. He says, it
must be rewarding for you to repay others for all
those years of misery. And I'm like, man, we see
this all day every day. People that are unhappy or
grew up unhappy and they're taking it out on other people.

(27:59):
They grow up as bullies because they were bullied as kids,
or they grow up and they hurt people because they
were hurt as kids. And then Picard gets it. It
all clicks, and then when the guy's trying to torture him,
he's like, you are six years old, week and helpless,
you cannot hurt me. And then the acting is out
of this world. And these are just such beautiful, powerful

(28:21):
scenes that stand the test of time.

Speaker 3 (28:25):
I agree it was.

Speaker 2 (28:26):
It was amazing performance by Patrick Stewart, like I said, And.

Speaker 3 (28:31):
You know the thing was that.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
They were trying to break him. Yep, right, they were
trying to break him. And we've seen I've seen several
different moments and movies where they try to break a character, right,
and those movies, those moments are always the most poignant.
In a movie, for example, or in television shows, it's

(28:58):
when they try to break the character. I'll give an example.
There was a movie that I grew up watch and
called The Prince Princess Bride.

Speaker 1 (29:05):
Uh huh. Great movie.

Speaker 2 (29:08):
And you know, the main hero in that character, when
he gets caught, they try to torture him with this machine,
with water torture machine, and they were trying to break him,
you know, and that has come in the movie Glory
with Denzel Washington. It was being whipped. Matthew Broderick ordered

(29:31):
him to be whipped. In that movie. There was a
moment of trying to break him. And those moments resonate
and they're kind of they leave an impact on the viewer.
It's something you can't erased from your mind. And that's
why when it's performed properly, and when you feel the
suffering of the character to the degree that you did

(29:53):
with the card in this moment in this episode, that's
when you say, this is an excellent performance. I'm watching
this guy's really in living this moment. He's really projecting
the pain and suffering at this moment. He's really fighting
back in the limited way that he could and the
only way he could fight back in this moment because

(30:14):
he couldn't fight physically and he couldn't fight any other way.
But the way he was fighting back was by not
by refusing to break, by staying logical, by staying rational.
I think he told him several times, like you already

(30:35):
know more than me. You gave me the truth serum.
You know that I don't know what you're asking, So
at this point there's no information you can get from me.
You're just trying to break me. At this point. There
is no access code or plan of attack or thing
that I have that you want. At this point, you

(30:58):
just want to make me bend the knee. And you know,
it's like what we watched the movie three hundred for
you know, it was about the Persian empire trying to
break break them, right, good movie, and it was like,
bend the knee and just kiss the ring and say
that you see five lights. And we love it when people,

(31:22):
when we see films that people refuse to do that.
They refuse to bend the knee, they refuse to be broken,
They refuse to cross their own principles and morals. They
fuse to sell out their brother, their country, their family,
or whatever it is. Biblical story is about that too.
I mean, that's what the disciples were essentially faced with

(31:46):
after Jesus' you know, leaving the planet, and during their
own journeys, they all had to face in some way
or another, suffering for their belief which they would refuse
to change, right, denying this, deny that he did, this,

(32:09):
deny that he was Christ. And they refuse that.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
And some of stuff still happens to this very day,
where people are trying to get people to say what
they don't think or what they don't believe, or to
bend the knee or to acquiesce. I mean, this is
human nature. Apparently it's Kardassian nature too. But also by
the way, I have to mention the Princess Bride. Of course,

(32:34):
one of these stars in this incredible cast was Wallace
Shawn who played zek grand Negas and Zech in Deep
Space nine. Got to always point that out, and of
course Andre the Giant and a host of other great
Mandy Pateenkin well, Hellia Inigo Montoya. I could not believe
it when I realized that a few years ago. I

(32:56):
was like, that's the same guy anyway, noth on.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
That and Pellia too. By the way, it is also.

Speaker 1 (33:02):
Helly, isn't it. Yeah, Carol Kane? All right, so, uh,
this is an episode to me that you know, stood
out so hard when I first watched it. I remember
when I first saw it, my brother and his friend

(33:23):
came in. I had gotten them into Star Trek and
they went and were like, you know. Then they got
into it and would watch it on their own, and
my brother came in and there and I was watching
this episode and they're like, oh, this is a good episode.
This is the four lights episode. I'm like, I don't
know what that means, but okay, you know. And then
and then I saw it and I was like, oh
my god, this is so good. So of course, you know,

(33:44):
I texted my brother. I've got a still frame of that.
There are four lights. I texted to him. I said
this when we're reviewing today. So I was really excited
about that. But this is you're going to see it.
It's gonna pop up. You're gonna hear people say there
are four lights or there's gonna be something like that.
Because this is like an iconic episode. There were so
many moments that, you know, even when Picard is slamming

(34:10):
the device on the desk, he said, and gall Madrid says,
I won't do you any good. He said, Still it
felt good, you know, And it's just all about the
human will to fight. This was like a psychology you
know class this episode.

Speaker 2 (34:26):
You know it was, and it also was like, you know,
because he kept offering him paradise. He kept lying to
him about Wharf and Crusher.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
He kept.

Speaker 2 (34:41):
It was just a complete psychological games that he was playing,
and it actually reminded me of Gold to Gott, you can't,
I can't watch the Cardassians doing their whole manipulat of
games gamesmanship without thinking of Gold to Gott, who I believe,
you know, got an opportunity to do it longer and
than anybody else totally, but ultimately it still comes from

(35:04):
the same you know, inspiration, which is this this level
of psychological manipulation and gamesmanship and torture. Essentially, it lets
me know, like when Golducott was talking to Kira about
her mom and all of this stuff, like all of
this like manipulative game, you know, psychological.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Absolutely, like you could totally substitute gold Ducott for Gall Madred.
You could totally see that. And by the way, I
just remembered something and I just looked it up. It
is true, Goll. Madrid is one of the characters in
the book called A Stitch in Time, which I always

(35:49):
say is the best Star Trek book I've ever read,
written by Andrew Robinson. Uh Star It's like a young
Garrick and a young Ducott when they were kids growing up,
and Madrid is in there, So it's all about them,
like growing up in this crazy Cardassian world. It's just

(36:09):
you guys. Everybody go read a Stitch in time. You'll
be glad you did. It's the best Star Trek book ever. Anyway,
back to this one.

Speaker 2 (36:20):
Yeah, shout out to Andy Robinson and yeah, another person
who did you know? Kardassian as good as you can get.
But you see that they come from this place of
you know, this is why I mentioned the USSR and
Soviet Union is because in the beginning they talked about
the tradition of the history and the cultural history, and

(36:43):
that kind of reminded me of, you know, before the
Bolshevik Revolution and you talk about the plundering of the
museums and artifacts and the depravity of the you know,
the population feelings.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
He said the military was their way out of starvation.
They were a starving race, a dying race, a suffering race.
And they're like, well, when the military takes over and
they start conquering everything, everybody's bellies are full. And then
Picard says about the daughter, you know, he's like, well,

(37:19):
her belly is she'll never go hungry. And Picard says, well,
her belly is maybe full but her spirituality is empty.
I don't remember the exact line, but it is something
like that. And then he slaps and her belly may
be full, but her spirit will be empty, and he
slaps her. However, they always what's great about Star Trek.

(37:40):
They always make that great point, which is if you
have a world that is constantly and forever suffering, and
you can end that suffering for a billion people, they're
all now fed, clothed, and how but you're also going

(38:03):
to war constantly and losing hundreds of thousands of lives.
Is that a good trade off? I feel like some
would probably say, yes, right, you lose five hundred thousand lives,
but one billion people are no longer suffering. I don't know.
But that's what Star Trek does so well is the
Kardashians clearly believe they made the right choice. They're defending

(38:23):
their choice and the cards like, dude, but you destroyed
all these artifacts.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Bro.

Speaker 1 (38:26):
He's like, yeah, but our bellies are full and our
kids grow up healthy. And you know, they're like a
traumatized race. They are. That's why they're so twisted with
other people. They're they're they're traumatized, they're sick, in the head.
They've they've grown up hard.

Speaker 2 (38:44):
Yeah, I mean, and then you know the brutality and
the conniving way that they operate as crazy too. But
you know, everybody justifies their position, and I feel like
they were just they always justify theirs. I think that's
what makes them so interesting is that.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
There are moments where.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
It may not be convincing, but it's it's elaborate. Their
thought process is elaborate.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
They it's not just.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
You may not agree with it, but for example, they
were saying, we were helping the passurance.

Speaker 1 (39:24):
They couldn't provide for themselves. We took care of them,
we brought them in.

Speaker 2 (39:31):
Yes, we civilized them, you know, like it's like it's
like it's like basically that's their pob You might not
agree with it, but it's that they're going to defend
that point of view. And and the way that it's
written is so scrumptious to watch because you're like the

(39:53):
evil and the defending of it in this way is
so amazing because it's just as well written, it's articulate,
And that's what.

Speaker 1 (40:02):
Makes a good villain. A paper villain that just doesn't
have any depth never works, just a mustache twirling. But
if they have depth, if they have true motivation that,
like you said, even if you disagree with that motivation,
you can still understand what got them there, and they

(40:22):
in their minds can still justify what they're doing even
if we don't agree with it.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
We can.

Speaker 1 (40:30):
We can actually understand what makes them tick. And that's
what makes a good villain.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
Right, you can understand what makes them tick, that they're
ideal and you're like, oh, okay, that's what you think,
that's what you believe, all right, I see. I see
it as opposed to just psychotic, where I just see
there's no lot, you can't even have a conversation. They
just go around just stabbing or whatever. Yeah, those are zombies, right,
So that's what Star Trek does.

Speaker 3 (40:58):
So well, I want to go a little bit.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
Before we break out here, talk a little bit about
the moment with Riker and Jellico.

Speaker 1 (41:04):
Yes, yes, I want to jump on that when they're
yelling at each other. There's two moments, Yes, there's when
they're yelling at each other. First, you know, once the
Krdassians leave and he's like, I can't I believe you're
willing to brisk but Captain Picard's life and he's like,
don't make me confine you to quarters. Are so good.
And then another scene when he comes and he's like

(41:28):
poking around, Oh you play the trombone? Uh? What kind
of boy? What did jee? What are you? And then
Riker's like, is there something I can help you with?
And then they drop the ranks and they go at it.
And I thought of you every single second of those
scenes because those are so juicy. Did you like them? Though?

Speaker 2 (41:49):
I loved him because they both had a chance to
tell each other what they felt so good, and that
was it, I mean, because there's I mean, I don't
know how many times this situation happens where it's like
two people, you know, where one of them will say
they hate the other one and then the other one
tells you how much they hate the other one, but
they actually won't say it to each other, you know,

(42:11):
and they're like, just just say it to each other,
and like, you know, like we don't have to go
on to this back channeling of you know, everybody having
these one on one discussions with you about how much
you hate each other, you know, just say it to
each other's face and just get it over with, maybe.

Speaker 1 (42:26):
See what happens, get into a fight, get into a
makeout session, you never know what, you never know, but
you know, like wrestle and see what happens.

Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah, yeah, or it just me just be like you
spoke your piece, I spoke my piece, and now we
know we don't like each other, which is basically what
Riker and Jellico came to.

Speaker 3 (42:45):
Right.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
It was just like, hey, look, I.

Speaker 3 (42:47):
Don't like you.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
I think you're a bad first officer. And it's like, yeah,
you know what, I don't like you either, and I
think you're back up to boom. And it's funny because
they both use the same descriptive word to describe each other.
Arrogant came up on both of theirs. It's like you're arrogant.
It's like you're arrogant. Like, uh, that was funny, uh

(43:10):
to me to some degree because you know, there's there's
a lovel of truth in both of those right, there's
you know, there's a in there.

Speaker 1 (43:18):
You'll notice that contrary to what Star Trek usually does,
I was glad with the decision to not have them
make up. There was not a moment where Jellico shakes
Riker's hand, and says good job, you know, or a
pat on the butt, or you know, there there's hit
and flinging towels at each other, locker room towels. Like

(43:41):
he just said, it's been a pleasure serving with all
of you, and he left. Nobody said it's been a
pleasure serving with you too, sir.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Well, Data did, but he said he said that in
the elevator when he walked into it.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
Yeah, yeah, and when he sent them a little note afterwards.
By the way, Captain, if you ever should be a
first officer again, please can consider my resume. I really
thought that we worked very well together. And then Picard's
like Captain or Data and he's like, oh, yes, Captain,
I'll be I'll be right there. But yeah, you'll notice

(44:13):
that they never made up, which is cool because usually
in Star Trek they eventually come back together and they
have like a nice little I.

Speaker 2 (44:19):
Was surprised Picard didn't say bye.

Speaker 3 (44:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
I get Riker not saying goodbye, you know, because like
I don't like you. I couldn't wait to see you leave.
But Picard like, yeah, you say, you know, he got
you back home. You're back on your bridge and he's
giving you your ship back. You guys made a formal
declaration to get it, So a goodbye, I think, or

(44:43):
thank you or you know something, some kind of goodbye
would have been nice from Picard and of course Data
because he was already up there, so he might as
well up where.

Speaker 1 (44:57):
So all right, well it is now. I'm I could
talk about this episode forever because, like I said, it's
one of my favorite episodes of all time, and it
really formed more than almost any Star Trek episode. It
really formed how I felt about Star Trek early on.
Another one was The Way of the Warrior in Deep
Space nine. That was another one, Like there are a

(45:19):
few episodes out there that really made me go, wow,
this is a show I like very much. But it
is time for the home run of the episode.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Yeah, I think it's impossible not to give it to
Patrick Stewart for this performance. He just delivered all the
key lines he made you know, he was just exceptional
in this episode. Is breaking his breakdown from you know,
the being the polished captain that he starts off the

(45:56):
episode with, or the first episode to see him come
down to, you know, having sores on his mouth and
looking disheveled and beaten in you know, really playing it well.
I was totally believing its performance, and so I would
say that the home run of the day goes to

(46:20):
Sir Patrick Stewart. Excellent performance. There are four lights. The
way he said it, at the moment that he said
it in was just it was just, you know, a
chef's kiss movement for his performance. Wise, So yeah, it's
Patrick Stewart.

Speaker 1 (46:35):
And then when the two guards try to help him
out and goes now walking out by myself, it's the
cutest freaking thing in the world. Yes, However, I'm going
to go with David Warner because David Warner kept over
and over and over and over again delivering lines in

(46:57):
a way that I was just like, oh my goods,
he is just so damn quotable. Again, I he was
my first monologue. One of the songs in in my
first band was called You're Crazy, and I would play
a clip of this at the beginning of that where

(47:20):
he's like, well it's time to move on. How many
lights do you see? Picard says there are four lights? Anyway, So,
and the song was about You're crazy and I'm not,
you know, and so anyway, it was just this is
just like David Warner is a superstar to me because
of his incredible performance here, so home run of the
episode to him. All right, here are some other people

(47:43):
that are not crazy. It was a fun song. We
would rock out on that song as fast. Dr Avras
in the next Oh Man, I definitely will on things
left unset everybody, but you got to be a patron
to do that one.

Speaker 4 (48:01):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Doctor Annbury, Siegel, Eve England out in Wales, Vett Blackman,
Tom t J. Jackson, Bayomas are A, Titus Muller, doctor
Mohammad nora' neil oh Platte, Joe Bowcarati, Mike Good. That'd
be fun of Joe Boucearrati had like seven eyes at
the end of his name, so it's like Joe Boucarati,
Mike Good, Doctor Stephanie Baker, Carrie Schwent, Faith Howel, the

(48:24):
Matt Boardman, Chris McGee, Jake Barrett, Henry Hunger, Allison Leech Hide,
Julie Manasfi, Jed Thompson, doctor Susan V. Gruner, Glenn Iverson,
Dave Gregory, Chris Sternett, Greg k Wickstrom, Cassandra g chuck A,
Chris Garrison, of course, Jason M. Oakin. I bet he

(48:46):
likes this episode. Stick around, everybody, We've got the Free
for All up next we will be right back on
the seventh rule of this episode. Hello everybody, Welcome back
to the seventh rule with Sir rock Lofton it is
time for the Free for All with Melissa Lungo CNF
hashtag CENF. I should say Jason M Oakin is here

(49:10):
as well, very like this one. Faith Howell has four
lights behind her, but she's a Cardi. Eve England is
out in Wales with her Frangi Eyes shirt. Chris Garris
has a fun scene behind him. Doctor Susan V. Gruner
has uniforms strewn about. Alison leech Hide is here as well.

(49:33):
In the heart of New Mexico. Carrie Schwent is playing
tricks on us with her shirt and the lights behind her.
So's TJ. Jackson Bay out in Missouri, and the dark
Lord is Chris McGhee. He's here. Jake Cisco guesses the
IMDb score.

Speaker 2 (49:54):
I got this one out about eight point seven, four
lights over the other one.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
The other was an eight point three. Nice Does anybody
else have any guesses that doesn't already know what the
IMDb score was?

Speaker 5 (50:11):
It's high at nine point one. I reckon eight six.

Speaker 6 (50:15):
Eight nice, eight.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Ten. It sounds like we're taking whoa one dollar? She's
getting converted. That sounds you were here, means somebody guessed
exactly right. The answer, of course, is eight point nine.
Well done. That was Chris, right, Okay, good job? All right?

Speaker 6 (50:45):
Did we have the same episode?

Speaker 1 (50:49):
Oh oh, that's gonna be like that? Is it? All right?
Let's see non appearance mentions. We got the card's parents
a second time, right.

Speaker 6 (51:00):
And Admirald natchiv right didn't see her in this?

Speaker 1 (51:05):
Exactly very good? All right? Do we have any some
kinds of or some.

Speaker 7 (51:10):
Sorts of unless someone else picked one up?

Speaker 1 (51:13):
I did not mean either. All right, speaking of picking up,
Melissa Longo, will you please pick up this show and
tell us what you thought of this episode.

Speaker 6 (51:27):
I thought it was a very well done episode. It
was difficult to watch because I just kept feeling for
Picard and oh gosh, there are so many great performances
in this. But I have to say Patrick Stewart is phenomenal.
He is just a phenomenal actor. There are so many

(51:51):
times in this where I just wanted to give him
a big hug because he was ah, and there are few.
I was trying to figure out how only be captains
have endured the same kind of torture and the amount
of torture this man has gone through. I think maybe

(52:11):
two have gotten close. We have Cisco when he had
to get into the box that was that was on
part torture to this, and in a different way, maybe
Captain Pike when he has to go to his chair,
but that that's a different kind of you know, physical trauma.

(52:36):
That's a different kind of trauma that that Cisco and
and a Card have had to endure. And gosh does
the card handle he somehow manages to maintain his dignity
through the amount of torture that he's been put through.

(52:57):
And I love that they didn't gloss oh were the
fact that he's gonna need therapy after going through this
and he had to sit down with Troy, And I
loved that they actually used her in her her job.
That is what she's here for. She is there to

(53:20):
help heal the captain's mind as well as other people's mind.
Great performances all around. Uh, Jericho Jellico Jellicoe not Jericho fantastic.

(53:41):
He did a fantastic work too. Yeah, there's just so
much to say, and I'm gonna save it mostly for
things left unsaid. So if you're not a patron, sign
up for things left unsaid, because there's a lot to
talk about in this episode and it's hard to cram
it in mighty seconds or so. Yeah, let's do Yeah, yeah,

(54:04):
become a patron.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
Great stuff, Thanks very much, Melissa Longo. Another notable instance
of captain torture is Jane Way. Every time Nelix speaks
to her, all right, you know, Jason m Oakin says
there are four lights? Do we believe them? What do
you think of this one?

Speaker 8 (54:24):
Well, I mean the episode is terrific. It's interesting to
see when you get these two parters south somewhat different tonally,
one part can be from another, and this is a
real tonal shift from I guess part one. You know,
Part one was kind of a Jellico show. You have,
you know, Ronnie Cox coming in and sort of shaking
things up a little bit. And here do you have

(54:44):
a two hander with David Warner and Patrick Stewart. I mean,
everything else aside is like a stage play can just
go on like this for forty some odd minutes. And
you know, one of the things I noticed is it
looks like the episode run really long, and I had
to cut a lot of out of it, and there's
some hearts that were lost that I wish weren't lost
out of that. And we can talk about that later.

(55:05):
Maybe little nuances here and there, but yeah, to some degree,
and I do remember that kind of talk back, you know,
thirty years ago that this should have been Patrick Stewart's Emmy.
But we really are talking about, you know, the early
nineties wards, silent science fiction on television wasn't really valued
as much. I mean, he puts in a wonderful performance,
and frankly, so does David Warner. And I think you

(55:26):
have to rise to that level when you have actress
of that caliber sort of sitting in a room and
sort of going at each other. There's one little bit
that frankly, I didn't even notice until this time around.
And I've seen the episode many many times. At the
very end, when the card sort of walks away, when
the guards take him away to go back to the Enterprise,
there's a close up on David Warner and there's a

(55:47):
little bit of a tiny bit of a smile in
a nod. It's scripted, but unless you really pay attention,
you don't notice that just a little bit sort of
an acknowledgment that somebody was basically best to do with this.
It's something that very very nuanced part of the performance.
And I think especially sort of knowing that David Warner

(56:08):
came in an almost very little notice and tried to
do something like this. I mean, it's kind of an
amazing performance to have all the make up on and do.

Speaker 1 (56:17):
Something like that.

Speaker 8 (56:19):
So overall, I think, you know, it is to some
degree hard to watch, especially when you watch this sort
of the first time, as you've you know, as you've
seen it a number of times. I think the impact
of that kind of lessons a little bit and you
start to see more. But it's a wonderful show. I mean,
it's a bottle show in a way. There's really not
you know, they build the set for both episodes, and
a lot of it's happening in the same sets, but

(56:40):
it never feels small. And I think it was shot
slightly differently and I'll talk about selling that later. But again,
a wonderful episode, Thank.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
You very much. Jason m Oakin. I had a feeling
you might have liked this one, but did Faith Howell
the Cardassian like it?

Speaker 9 (56:57):
What do you think, Faith, Well, first of all, let
me start off by saying, I did go back as
we talked about previously, and I did see.

Speaker 5 (57:07):
I've noticed the pictures.

Speaker 10 (57:08):
I see why I missed them previously, that they are
basically just kids art, and as a kid, when I
first watched this, I would have missed that because that's
just what art looks like. So I see why I
was blind to that piece. But definitely continue to like
Jellico more as we got through the second part. I
do see, especially after our conversation, how he is definitely

(57:35):
trying to be liked in some way. He is trying
to do the best that he can. He's trying to
do his job. But he definitely, you know, had started
off on the long foot with a couple of people.
So I liked him more and more, and I saw
more depth in him this time than I had noticed previously.

Speaker 5 (57:57):
But yeah, so.

Speaker 10 (57:59):
The main thing that I love love about this episode
is that clearly they are doing some deliberate things to
set up for a big villain for DS nine. So
going back and watching this, they are making this guy
as evil as possible, so that we extrapolate that into

(58:19):
Goldecott when we get to DS nine.

Speaker 6 (58:23):
And I also.

Speaker 10 (58:24):
Had a hard time watching this and not imagining Garrick
doing some of these things though, because this would would
have been his job as well. Like literally you could
swap the two we could have had. If we had
wanted Grek to be a more sinister character, this could
have been Andy Robinson and then we could have seen

(58:45):
him on Deep Day's nine.

Speaker 6 (58:46):
It would have changed.

Speaker 10 (58:47):
Who we had as Garrick because we would have had
that knowledge from the get go. But definitely, looking back,
it's like, wow, all right, that's a little different. So
you know, I kind of liked that extra glimpse into
you know, maybe goal Madred was of city in order,
maybe he was acting in that way, and that also

(59:12):
would play into how the military guy comes back in
at the end and totally blows the whole thing up,
because they don't always talk to each other, and so
maybe they weren't, you just a little head cannon there.
Maybe they weren't talking to each other, and that's why,
you know, if he had waited thirty more seconds before
blowing that whole thing up with one line Madrid could

(59:33):
have won and we would maybe not have had the card,
or maybe he would have come back to us and
been an informant in some way, So could have been
a totally different story with just a few different lines there.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Oh yeah, we kind of talked about the possibility of
Ducatt being in that role as well. Great stuff, Thank
you very much, Faith, how all the Kardashian All right,
Eve England out in Wales. You tipped your your cap
a little bit there. You said nine point one is
what you thought it got on IMDb. So you liked
this episode upon your first viewing.

Speaker 11 (01:00:08):
I mean it was completely not what I was expecting
after the last episode, So the first part, I mean,
as you said, it's completely different. I mean, again, I
think it's so much to say, but I was trying
to sort of pick out two things. So for me,
the thing that really struck struck me was how it

(01:00:29):
was just such a brilliantly executed tribute to or was
nineteen eighty four, you know, which is one of my
all time favorites. But you know, we basically have p
Card in his very own room one oh one being
subjected to the sort of brutal Kardastan version of double think,
which you know, whereas in the book you have four
fingers and the two plus two equals five, but here

(01:00:51):
we have the four versus five lights. I thought that
was just such a good sort of way of establishing
you just know what, you know, what's happened here. As
soon as he says how many lights there are?

Speaker 5 (01:01:02):
You know what this is? And that sort of was
really clever.

Speaker 11 (01:01:05):
I mean, I've seen all the memes on the internet,
and this was the Yeah, I didn't they don't do
this episode justice, So I'm kind of a bit disappointed.
I thought it was gonna be something a bit funnyeah,
but clearly, and what I was really pleased about was
how as you already mentioned, like and Faith mentioned, you know,
having Picards speak to Diana at the end. I was

(01:01:29):
really glad they did that because they could have just
left it with Picard standing up to him and saying, no,
this four lights when actually that I just found that,
you know, how kind of chill when when he starts
talking about that, because it is really chilling. It's an
account of how horrific those sort of brainwashing techniques are
and how it has that impact on him. As a
person and how you know, he not only did he

(01:01:51):
want to say five lights, but he actually saw five lights.

Speaker 5 (01:01:55):
And I just thought the way he presented that.

Speaker 11 (01:01:56):
Was just beautiful and sort of sort of whole wanting
a tragic way on a sort of light to note.

Speaker 5 (01:02:04):
I thought that's all amazing.

Speaker 11 (01:02:05):
But yeah, for Jellicoe, I just thought, I mean, because
I was starting to worry when we had the previous
conversation that you know, maybe I'd sort of mis misread
the situation. But I mean, I just thought this episode
exposed Riker for the petulant man child that he really is.
I mean, I just wanted to punch his face when

(01:02:26):
he was in his room and he goes, you're welcome,
and I was at you. I mean, I'm not even
gonna say, but I just thought he's there stuck. In
his first impressions of Jellico, Jellico's turned up as the
you know, trying to be the better person, putting his
dislike for this person to one side, and you know,
and being sort of.

Speaker 5 (01:02:45):
Humble in that, you know, without.

Speaker 11 (01:02:47):
Writing in the picture we have Jellico, I don't know,
being portrayed as an excellent captain. I thought working callabrity
with everyone else. He's even having to think on his
feet and he gets the job done.

Speaker 5 (01:02:59):
Say the day saved Picard.

Speaker 11 (01:03:01):
But we also see some really good sort of personal interaction,
especially with Jordan and some of the others, which shows
that there is some joy there. He does trust and
everybody likes working with him. So yeah, I didn't think
I came across a toll well in these two episodes,
and I kind of I don't know what the purpose
of that was other than kind of to take him
out of that picture. I think I would have preferred

(01:03:22):
these two episodes had that part of the storyline just
not been included, because Reiker really is the sort of
the victim I think, you know, as we came out
with this, and I really think a lot less of
him than before. So but yeah, really enjoyed this episode
and it was really well done.

Speaker 1 (01:03:40):
Wow, this is good stuff. Who would have thought that
the Welsh person would want to replace the English actor?
There's something there, Thank you very much. Eve England out
in Wales all right, Chris Garris is up next. What'd
you think of this?

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
Wow?

Speaker 12 (01:03:58):
I'm still a little shocked in that last date in
there about Riker who all right, Uh no, I actually
I think I like this one obviously better than the
first part because you know, we're actually getting now we
are used to Jellico, I mean, as much as we can,
and he is kind of trying to make nice with
the crew, but he still doesn't do the best job.

(01:04:19):
But again, Patrick Stewart's acting was just off. He was
phenomenal in this one. He did a great job, you know,
he I was you know, reading on this that he
actually was willing to be naked for that scene, that
that torture scene as long a zone as a closed set,
and he did that. But you know, also just kind

(01:04:40):
of feel bad for the character because now at Leasta
made a common but you know what Captain has been
put through more. I mean he's now been tortured twice.
He's been tortured by the card to Ascians and then
turned into a borg. Like I mean, I'm sorry, I
don't think anybody has probably had more done to him

(01:05:03):
than Picard has. So it is good that like and
they I like how they did that again at the end,
he again went and talked to Deanna, just like he
did after you know, on Best of Both the Worlds
and he was working out best of all the worlds
and oh my gosh, you know in the Borg episodes,
now I did kind of get a little chuckle on

(01:05:24):
Doctor Crusher when you know he's given, you know, getting
all the orders and getting ready to prepare for battle,
and she's like, you know you're gonna, yes, sir, I'm
getting ready for you to send all of the casualties
to me. And just her face, she had a lot
she still had a lot of disdain for him. She's
still so you can even say she didn't like him,
maybe a little less than Riker. And then I liked

(01:05:45):
how they used you know, how Pocard used gold Madrid's
story against him and oh and that really started just
pissing him off a lot. And I just I liked
but again his mind to be able to think of,
like to catch onto that little nugget and just how
to poke back at his captor. You know, so that's

(01:06:07):
a that's a great scene. And then I don't know,
I'm trying to think how I feel about what this part,
but I liked how Jellico was going through and probing
Jordie to find out who the best pilot was. And
you know, trying to chum up to him, and then
you know, he's like, yeah, I could do it, but
the best person is Commander Riker, and you can see

(01:06:29):
his he's like, oh my god, I've got to go
talk to that asshole. Is probably what he really thought.
I don't think Riker is that, but still that's probably
what he thought. And then I'm sorry, I still like
the I like that scene between him and Riker when
he's like having to just both of them are honestly
kind of sucking it up to have to say yes,

(01:06:50):
they'll do it now. Okay, was it a little snarky
a Riker at the end? Oh yeah, yes, it was
this petty But still I kind of I don't know.
As we said in the previous one, I feel like
if Riker had known what was going on from the beginning,
granted it would have been a very very short episode,
but all that distrust and hate would have probably not happened.

(01:07:15):
But overall, I enjoyed how they ended that. This this
you know, this two parter, and it the second one,
in my opinion, is better than the first one. But
that's my take for this one.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Mm hmm, great stuff. Thanks very much, Chris, Garris out
in Southeast Texas. Doctor Susan V. Grunner in Florida, did
you love this episode? What'd you think? Uh? Oh, I
can't hear you.

Speaker 13 (01:07:40):
I didn't love it, but I didn't hate it either.
I'll talk about what I liked about it. First, I
really liked Troy in her uniform. Finally, I agreed with
Jill Coo. I think that was the previous episode that
he wanted things more formal on the British.

Speaker 5 (01:07:58):
I agree with that.

Speaker 13 (01:08:00):
Patrick Stewart and David Warner definitely deserved an award for
this whole torture thing. And everything was hard to watch,
as Malissa said.

Speaker 2 (01:08:09):
And.

Speaker 13 (01:08:10):
What really got me was when the little girl was
in the room and the Cardassian I can't think of
his name. He said, this is not how humans, you know,
they don't love their children. I thought, oh my god,
what a bastard he is to say something like that
might really fit in with the episode. I thought that

(01:08:32):
the first part was unnecessary. I think that they could
have made this one episode. That's why I didn't participate
last night. I didn't want to be too negative, but
I think that they could have encapsulated it more in
just one giant episode. And my whole issue why I
can't give it a ten or anything I think over

(01:08:52):
a seven was I just didn't believe And I know
it's fiction and everything, but still I can't believe it.
Star Flight would send Picard on a mission where he
could die, and I thought the excuse was latest because
he worked with Metagenics before. I'm not buying that I
the only doctor on the ship. No, I just didn't

(01:09:13):
make sense to me. So that sort of ruined it
for me. And I've seen it probably twenty times, this episode,
and I've always felt the same. So it's a dichotomy
of an episode in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Mm hmm, good stuff. Thank you very much. Doctor Susan V.
Gruner out in Florida, Alison Leech Hide, what's up. Good
to see you. What'd you think of this one?

Speaker 6 (01:09:40):
It's a great episode.

Speaker 14 (01:09:41):
I mean, Patrick, Stewart and David are amazing the entire time.
They work well together, and Stuart is he should have
gotten his Emmy because this is an amazing performance. And
you know, he did a lot of research and watched
see international videos on torture and all of that to

(01:10:03):
prep for this, and that couldn't have been easy in
in itself, so made major kudos to those two and
the whole the whole scene with Madrid's daughter that just
hurts every time, Like, oh, and as a kid, I'm like,
my dad would never do that. And then as a mom,

(01:10:25):
I'm like, no, never, Now a little bit lighter. I
love seeing Data in red makes me so happy. I'm like, yes, Command, Data,
love it. Miss Marney's beard and.

Speaker 12 (01:10:38):
That hit me.

Speaker 14 (01:10:39):
Like in the first scene with all of them in
the ready room, I'm like, oh, I missed the beard already.

Speaker 6 (01:10:44):
Yeah, Cab, I love the beard.

Speaker 14 (01:10:49):
And then what else? I love that Jellico got the
captain's log in this. I thought that was a great
touch to you know, really push home to all of
us that you know he is the one who is
in command of this ship.

Speaker 6 (01:11:03):
And last, I was.

Speaker 14 (01:11:05):
Super mad at our crew when Jellico said it's been
an honor serving with you and he got nothing from them.
I'm like, you could at least say goodbye and thank you.
He kept everyone alive, got boocard back, and was a
successful interim captain for this mission, and he deserved respect
for that. So I was mad at our crew for that.

(01:11:27):
I'm like that's not okay, so but love the episode.

Speaker 1 (01:11:32):
Mm hmm, thank you very much, Ellison Leech hide out
in the heart of New Mexico. Carrie Schwent has four
lights behind her, but each light is a lit five.
What'd you think of this one?

Speaker 3 (01:11:48):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (01:11:49):
Love it, even even better than than part one. Still,
don't let Killico. Sorry, I am not.

Speaker 3 (01:11:58):
Never will be.

Speaker 4 (01:11:59):
I am worked for and been married to too many
people that act like he does, so I can't. I can't.
I can't do it. He can't stand being he can't
stand being challenged. I will admit, though, that he was
right to relieve Riker of duty because I respect where
Riker was coming from, but he did it a little
too hot. I will admit that. However, Riker was right

(01:12:23):
when as Jelico is leaving to say he should Jelica
should have said thank you because he cute and yeah
he Jellico asked literally every other pilot on the ship
before he finally took to Jerry's suggestion to go ask
Riker talk to talk to Riker about it. They almost

(01:12:46):
had a productive conversation, but they did finally tell each
other what they thought of each other. And sometimes you
sometimes you just you gotta do that, but get a
right yeah, Riker comments in the in the in that
scene kind of highlight I told kind of what I
was saying about Delico the last the last episode almost
almost verbade him rewatching im like, yeah, I think I

(01:13:08):
said just about every ey every bit of that. But
and also one other thing that they probably should have
given him, like a little bit as he as he
was leaving, I will it's he had to get one
last dig in. When he shakes Captain Picard's hand, says okay,
I gave you, I give you back to shipping the

(01:13:29):
same way. It was maybe a little better. Really you
had to get that last little little dink in there.
But that might just me might just be me me projecting.
But the other half of the episode, everything was with
PICARDA Madrid was just just a fantastic two person play.

(01:13:51):
You really see all of their Shakespeare acting experience coming
coming out and in both of the apparently they have
both done Hamlet, but sadly we're not in I guess
not in the same production. But I love I love that.
I love the David Warner, He's fantastic. Two of my

(01:14:13):
favorite roles of his really kind of highlight his like
his acting range. He was loved love joy in in Titanic,
The Bad Guys, Valet Dude, and then on the comedy side,
he plays the professor in Teenage Meeting Ninjashurles too The
Secret of the of the Ooze. He is adorable in

(01:14:37):
the in that movie. If you I've never seen it,
absolutely go go watch it. It's very very funny, he is.
He's fantastic in it. I love how Tally is too,
and he says he just he's got the best voice.
I love listen, listen. I love listening to him speak.

Speaker 3 (01:14:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:14:54):
The scene with the daughter absolutely got got to me too.
The line where Picard says or she leaves that when
children learn to devalue others, they can devalue anyone that
especially today, HiT's incredibly close to home. We all wanted
to learn stand to take that particular listen to hurt.

(01:15:15):
And that's all say about about that. But for the
limericks of the of the episode, I was struggling a
little bit as to where to come from from it,
and then I was re reading Memory Memory Alpho's summary
of the episode and its description of the scene at
the end with Picard and Deanna sort of gave me
the idea for that. So I will end on one

(01:15:38):
of my more more more serious limericks as opposed to the.

Speaker 3 (01:15:41):
Fighting from last time. So there are.

Speaker 4 (01:15:48):
I would not break, is what I believed, no matter
how hard he tried to deceive. For a moment, I
saw five a fact that I chose to hide. I
almost gave in before my reprieve.

Speaker 1 (01:16:04):
Excellent, Thank you very much, Carrie Schwent aka Crafty Bear. Coincidentally,
Damar was also in a teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie.
It was the Secret of the Booze, which is really close.
T J. Jackson Bay is out in Missouri. What do
you think of this one?

Speaker 3 (01:16:21):
Of all that? Sorry man, and I think this episode
is a very fitting conclusion to the first half. You know,
the stakes are high and in the tension. You know
it was there in the ship, and you know we

(01:16:42):
get added tension. You know in the scenes between Going
Madrid and Captain Piccard, and I thought, you know, the
kind of going back and forth between those two. You know,
you really set a good pace for the episode. I mean,
just like I did, you know with the last one.
Now I was, you know, really kind of honed in
on running Cox and his performance. UH. And you know,

(01:17:05):
I picked up, you know, several more cues from him
that I thought were just so excellently, you know, delivered
without a word, without a line. You just have you
see and and you know, unless you're like Riker and
you just can't see pass your dislike for this guy,
you see what he's going through. For example, when you know,

(01:17:28):
le Mac tells him we got your guy and plays
in the video and all of that, and you know,
he's quickly running through his head like, oh my god,
you know, what what am I gonna do about this?
And you can see him like his hands are like
kind of tapping on the table, and he knows that
his next decision is going to determine whether or not

(01:17:48):
they go to war, and you can so you can
see the weight of that on him. And I also
noticed when Crusher and Wharf get back to the ship
and are in sick Bay getting checked out, he goes
down to check on them and and he seemed genuinely

(01:18:10):
compassionate for uh, for Crusher and you know, knowing that
you know, she's just had to run for her life
and also leave the car behind. UH And it knows
that that could not have been easy. His repayment for
that compassion and concern was was her reaction to him
and in the in the in the meeting later on,

(01:18:34):
I thought I wasn't warranted. She wasn't there for all
of the kind of back and forth and shakeup. So
I don't know why she is so angry at him,
unless somebody said he's not even trying to rescue the captain.
I can see that, you know, making her upset because
we already know that the gossip is going on in

(01:18:55):
the ship. So uh, there's that. Like Allison, I thought
it was super neat to immediately see data in the
red uniform. I appreciate, you know, the setup for that
that was set up last week when Captain Jellicoe started
grinning him and leaving Riker on the bridge and taking
data to go get stuff done. And so it took

(01:19:18):
place and it didn't even need a line, It didn't
need an announcement. You just see him in the uniform.
You already know, okay, he's the first officer now, and
so I liked that they didn't make a big deal
about it. You just see it and know that that's
what's happened. I thought that's good storytelling, you know, to
set that up that way and then have it pay
off without a line. Let's see, all right, I thought.

(01:19:46):
Jellicoe scene in Rikers Quarters also showed again him still
trying to build the bridge that fell the very first
time they met. You know, he tried. He's like, he's like, oh,
you like music, you know what, what do you know?
What kind of music do you play? You know he
names off like classical and something else, and it's his cass.

(01:20:11):
So like the connection is broken because obviously Captain Jellicoe
is not a jazz man. Didn't look like it from
his reaction. Uh So I thought he tried. I completely
disagreed with Riker's assessment of him, and and I kind
of feel like, you know, Eve that you know, he's
still just holding on to this resentment. He can't see

(01:20:31):
past it, the fact that he just doesn't like the guy,
which is fine. I mean, there are people I've worked
with that I don't like, but I still have a
job to do. And there are people that I work
with that don't like me still get our jobs. You know,
that's just fine. It's kind of disappointing to see Racer

(01:20:52):
like this, and I still say that it all could
have been fixed. If he had been read into what
was going on at the very beginning of the first episode,
you wouldn't have this going on. Also, in this episode,
kind of saw maybe some reasons why, and you know,
we all asked why didn't they just like let Riker
do the mission, like why bring in Captain Jellicoe, and

(01:21:16):
we said no, because he's an expert in the Cardassians
or whatever. But we also kind of see Ryker prove
why they didn't pick him for this mission, and that
they know that he would sacrifice the greater mission to
go resk keeper card and he made that abundantly clear
in this situation, they just couldn't do it. The stakes

(01:21:37):
were too high. The stakes were too high. So he's
a capable captain and capable commander, and I feel like
that's known. He's not been offered his own command for
no reason, but he's not the commander for this mission
because that's what he would do. I'm not saying that's

(01:22:01):
necessarily wrong that he would go and get per card back,
but the consequences of that would be far greater In
this situation, I think, and maybe that's why they didn't
give him command. I have a slightly different interpretation of
the kind of smile and nod that Limec does not

(01:22:23):
La Mecca gold Madrid does. As per Card is walking
out to me, when Picard yells back, there are four
lights because he knows that he's about to leave. To me,
that actually felt like the surrender that you know that
he's like he's weighing in his mind. I can just

(01:22:45):
tell this guy's five lights and I don't got to
be in this room anymore. And so like when he
finally hears the Enterprise hasn't been destroyed and you're about
to go home, that's when he yells back, there are
four lights. To me, that felt like the defeat. And
I thought the smiling nod was like I had you,

(01:23:09):
I had you. I know that I got you, but
you're gone, so by uh, That's how I interpret it.
I also I felt like, and I think it was
Alison that mentions how Angelico is leaving and he's saying
goodbye that he got nothing, and that I was really

(01:23:31):
really disappointed in all the crew for that, for all
the same reasons that Alison already said, so I'll talk
more about that later. And the things left und said
I talked for a long time, so I'm going.

Speaker 1 (01:23:45):
To stop things left unsaid coming soon, Thanks very much.

Speaker 3 (01:23:48):
TJ.

Speaker 1 (01:23:49):
Jackson, Bay Out Missouri. All right, Chris McGee, what do
you think of this one? I bet you've seen it
before a.

Speaker 7 (01:23:55):
Few times, and it's pretty freaking fantastic. That's when I
think about it, even better than the first part in
my opinion, probably because and maybe this is reductionist, but
I feel the Part one was little more than a
setup for this episode, an appetizer for this main course,
if you will. During the review of the first part,

(01:24:16):
I had said that it was a landmark episode. Well,
this one is probably even more so, primarily because of
the repeated tach. The tactic that gold Maindred used to
try to break the cards will aligned so often repeated
by their characters that it has not only become iconic
in the series, but as transcended beyond Star Trek and

(01:24:37):
practically become a household meme. And of course, another reason
this episode is so fondly remembered is, as others have mentioned,
because of the absolutely incredible acting by David Warner and
especially Patrick Stewart, who probably outdoes all his previous performances,
including from the episode Serah. That's not to diminish the

(01:24:59):
other performance those such as by Ronnie Cox and John
Durbin who played Goldenmeck, who also did fantastic jobs portraying
their respective characters to a t. Gates McFadden didn't have
much to do in this episode, but she still acted
the hell out of a role, like when she silently
stared Daggers at Jellico after he confirmed that he would

(01:25:19):
be sending casualties to Sick Base soon. I agree with
Carrie that one of the most impactful lines in the
episode is the card telling Golden Madred when children learn
to devalue others, that can devalue anyone. As she said,
this is so incredibly true, probably even more so today, unfortunately,

(01:25:39):
and I'd love to expand upon that, but it would
get political. So if we do want to get into it,
it will be in Things Left Unsaid, along with my nitpick,
and we do get citing from instant. Kellogg makes an
appearance as one of the security guards when the Kardassians
are aboard the Enterprise for the memorable quotes of all

(01:26:00):
besides the obvious first choice, the one I'm going to
go with his car saying torture has never been a
reliable means of extracting information.

Speaker 1 (01:26:11):
Mm hmm. I saw Kellogg two. Great stuff. Thank you
very much. Chris McGee. The Dark Lord. Jake's final take, Sarak,
what do you think of this one? Final thoughts?

Speaker 2 (01:26:23):
I should say, well, I was thinking about how many
lies did the Cardassians tell. It's I'm not mistaken. Golamec
said that Picard killed fifty five people, and I was like,
I didn't see fifty five people get killed in the
opening scene in the first episode, so they just lie

(01:26:45):
on top of lies. And then it made me think
of the famous Garrick and Bashiri. He said, out of
all the stories you told me, which ones, which one
that you told me were true?

Speaker 3 (01:26:56):
And which ones weren't?

Speaker 2 (01:26:57):
And garrick'says, my doctor, they were all true. And of
course bebushis even the lies especially, and so this is
where we get specialized, and I think they really do
a great job of making that a foundational piece to
what we see with the Kardassians. We don't know when

(01:27:18):
they're lying or telling the truth, and they always are
essentially lying for the most part about something or another.
I was also wondering if Kardashians have any girls, because
I see male Kardassians in charge, but they always have
daughters with Ziel and this other girl, and I'm like,
you know, I would like to see them the women

(01:27:41):
Kardassians and their roles in society as well. I don't
know what that is. But also Gola Mech I thought
did a great job in this episode as well. I
thought he had a chance to really become more of
the villain and have the upper handed than Negotia eating
scenes and so he I thought that had a very

(01:28:03):
good chance to shine. And I could imagine that they
probably were considering him as well as Marklimo when they
were thinking of who to bring on for to cut,
because he has the same kind of stature and look
to him, let's see. I also thought that Eve made

(01:28:24):
a great point about Riker when he was saying you
now say you're welcome and just being like a little
childish about that. That was a little bit low for him,
because you know, here you are wanting to contribute, wanting
to save Picard, wanting to this is your moment, This
is your opportunity, you should be eager to want to

(01:28:44):
do that, so much so that I actually thought he
was going to go on his own and do like
a run about mission. When he got excused from his role,
I thought he was perfect opportunity for him to say, well,
then I'll just go rogue and take a shuttle craft
and try to find the card myself. But you know,
he didn't do that. I have to give apology to

(01:29:09):
Jellico because I did think he was up to no
good or nefarious or incompetent, and it turns out he
was not. So he actually had a job to do
and a little bit of time to do it, and
so he didn't have time for the pleasantries and trying
to make himself liked. He was there to get stuff

(01:29:31):
done and he did so. I think this episodes, or
both of these episodes, are really about these strong willed
men that are like not going to break from their position.
Riker not breaking from his position, Jellicoe not breaking from
his position, Picard not breaking from his position, and then

(01:29:52):
you got the goal Madrid who was not breaking from
his position. And so basically it was just about a
bunch of people like holding the line on where they
believe they need to hold the line, and you know,
ultimately we had some good results with it. And then

(01:30:12):
I also want to say that there were some moments
there with the lighting inside of that interrogation room that
I thought were well done. It just looked it was
just well lit. The backdrop, it looked something, you know,
like I was on some kind of bunker or you know,
some interrogation space. They had rebar that was just you know,
randomly placed in different places and you know, cross lighting

(01:30:36):
in the panels in the background. So I thought it
was a good job for just designing the set to
make it look like a a nice little hidden kind
of cavern and stuff. So and then you know, Patrick
Stewart just gave us an excellent performance and show us why.
You know, they learned how to write for him a

(01:30:56):
lot better as the seasons went on, and they made
him annable, principled captain. I really loved the moment when
he decided to turn back because he thought that Beverly
would be going to the same kind of torture, so
he was making a moment of self sacrifice. There shows
another honorable thing for him as a captain to even

(01:31:20):
though it wasn't true, but believing that it was true,
he made the choice to replace her. And so I
think those are all just good characteristics of the kind
of leader and captain you want. But Riker has to
be a little bit more flexible in situations like this
that you're not always going to get the guy that
you want in the captain that you love, and sometimes

(01:31:42):
you're just going to have to play the hand your
dealt and be a contributor in whatever way you can
in that situation. But I do think it was very
casual how they debriefed him, because Jelliko just randomly looks
over and says, yeah, you know, they're building a managenetic web.
And it was like, if it was that casual to

(01:32:03):
debrief and you could do it like in the open space,
it wasn't like, let me call you aside and tell
you a private He kind of just threw it out
there at the conference table, and I'm like, well, if
it's that flippant to just say, then why wouldn't you
just say this a long time ago and you could
have at least set Riker as part of the plan
as opposed to like trying to find out where he

(01:32:25):
fits in, so I think everybody had a little bit
of a hand in this. And yeah, I did like
also doctor Crusher's moment when she was had that look
of concern. I thought it was a really good just
performance that she could see that she worries for the card.
And I thought that moment reflected well with him standing

(01:32:47):
up for her and her thinking about him. So good,
good stuff there. This is a good television, really good thing.
I did also notice a writing style difference between the
first episode and the second. Ronald Moore has a different
way of just his language is right, is different, his
dialogue is slightly different, and actually I thought that was

(01:33:09):
most reflected in Jellico's character. I thought his dialogue was
slightly less abrasive this episode than it was the first one.

Speaker 3 (01:33:21):
So that's my take.

Speaker 2 (01:33:24):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:33:25):
Truer words never spoken. Picard was definitely debriefed. I know
that for sure. And as Siak also said, Kardassian's special
lies in Deception, thank you very much because you said
special lies. Whatever, Chris McGee, thank you, t J. Jackson, Bay,

(01:33:48):
Kerrie Schwent, Alison Leech Hied, Susan Gruner, who's regretting coming
on now, She's like what the Chris Kris Eve England
out in Wales, Pal, Jason m Oak and Malise A
longa from myself, Sirac, Melissa and mister Aron Eisberg. Hashtag
Captain Nog Forever. We will see you next time. If
you're a patron stick around, We've got things left unsaid next.

(01:34:10):
We'll see you next time. On the seventh rule,

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There Are Four Lights! | TNG 6.11, "Chain of Command, part 2" | T7R #367 FULL

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}There Are Four Lights! | TNG 6.11, "Chain of Command, part 2" | T7R #367 FULL