The Apology of Socrates : There is another thing - to - not even if I have to die many times.

Episode Transcript

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Part two of the Apology of Socratesby Plato in the translation by Benjamin Jowat.
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by Father Ziley of Detroit, Michigan, June two thousand and seven. The
Apology of Socrates by Plato, translatedby Benjamin Jowat, Part two. There
is another thing. Young men ofthe richer classes, who have not much

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to do, come about me oftheir own accord. They like to hear
the pretenders examined, and they oftenimitate me and examine others themselves. There
are plenty of persons, as theysoon enough discover, who think that they
know something, but really little ornothing. And then those who are examined

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by them, instead of being angrywith themselves, are angry with me.
This confounded Socrates. They say,this villainous misleader of youth. And then
if somebody asks them, why whatevil does he practice or teach? They
do not know and cannot tell.But in order that they may not appear

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to be at a loss, theyrepeat the ready made charges which are used
against all philosophers about teaching things upin the clouds and under the earth,
and having no gods, and makingthe worse appear the better cause. For
they do not like to confess thattheir pretense of knowledge has been detected,

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which is the truth. And asthey are numerous, and ambitious and energetic,
and are all in battle array,and have persuasive tongues, they have
filled your ears with their loud andinveterate calumnies. And this is the reason
why my three accusers, Molytus,Anetus, and Lycon have set upon me.

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Molitus, who has a quarrel withme on behalf of the poets,
anetas On behalf of the craftsman,likan On behalf of the rhetoricians. And
as I said at the beginning,I cannot expect to get rid of this
mass of calumny in a moment.And this, o Men of Athens,

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is the truth and the whole truth. I have concealed nothing, I have
dissembled nothing. And yet I knowthat this plainness of speech makes them hate
me. And what is their hatebut a proof that I am speaking the
truth. This is the occasion andreason of their slander. Of me,

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as you will find out, eitherin this or in any future inquiry.
I have said enough in my defenseagainst the first class of my accusers.
I turn to the second class,who are headed by Melitus, that good
and patriotic man, as he callshimself. And now I will try to

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defend myself against him. These newaccusers must also have their affidavit read.
What do they say something of this? That Socrates is a doer of evil
and corruptor of the youth, thathe does not believe in the gods of
the state, and has other newdivinities of his own. That is the

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sort of charge. And now letus examine the particular counts. He says
that I am a doer of evilwho corrupt the youth. But I say,
o, men of Athens, thatMeletus is a doer of evil,
and the evil is that he makesa joke of a serious matter, and
is too ready at bringing other mento trial from a pretended zeal and interest

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about matters in which he really neverhad the smallest interest. And the truth
of this I will endeavor to prove. Come hither, Melitus, and let
me ask a question of you.You think a great deal about the improvement
of youth. Yes, I do. Tell the judges then, who is

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their improver? For you must know, as you have taken the pains to
discover their corruptor, and are citingand accusing me before them. Speak then
and tell the judges who their improveris. Observe Melitus that you are silent
and have nothing to say. Butis not this rather disgraceful and a very

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considerable proof of what I was saying, that you have no interest in the
matter, Speak up, friend,and tell us who their improver is?
The laws? But that, mygood, sir, is not my meaning.
I want to know who the personis who, in the first place
knows the laws? The judges,Socrates, who are present in court.

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What do you mean to say,Melitus, that they are able to instruct
and improve youth? Certainly they arewhat all of them, or some only
and not others, all of themby the Goddess Hera. That is good
news. There are plenty of improvers, then, And what do you say
of the audience? Do they improvethem? Yes they do, and the

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senators, Yes, the senators improvethem. But perhaps the ecclesiasts corrupt them?
Or do they improve them? Theyimprove them. Then every Athenian improves
and elevates them all with the exceptionof myself, and I alone am their
corruptor. Is that what you affirm? That is what I stoutly affirm.

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I am very unfortunate if that istrue. But suppose I ask you a
question, would you say that thisalso holds true? In the case of
horses? Does one man do themharm and all the world good? Is
not the exact opposite of this true? One man is able to do them

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good, or at least not manythe trainer of horses, that is to
say, it does them good,and others who have to do with them
rather injure them. Is not thattrue, Melitus? Of horses or any
other animals? Yes, certainly,Whether you and Annatus say yes or no,
that is no matter. Happy indeedwould be the condition of youth if

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they had one corruptor only, andall the rest of the world were their
improvers. And eu Militas have sufficientlyshown that you never had a thought about
the young. Your carelessness is seenin your not caring about matters spoken of
in this very indictment. And nowMilitis, I must ask you another question,

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which is better to live among badcitizens or among good ones? Answer,
friend, I say, for thatis a question which may be easily
answered. Do not the good dotheir neighbors good? And the bad do
them evil? Certainly? And isthere anyone who would rather be injured than

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benefited by those who live with them? Answer, my good friend, the
law requires you to answer, doesanyone like to be injured? Certainly?
Not? And when you accuse meof corrupting and deteriorating the youth, do
you allege that I corrupt them intentionallyor unintentionally? Intentionally? I say,

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But you have just admitted that thegood do their neighbors good, and the
evil do them harm? Now isthat a truth which your superior wisdom has
recognized them us early in life?And am I, at my age in
such darkness and ignorance as not toknow that if a man with whom I
have to live is corrupted by me, I am very likely to be harmed

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by him. And yet I corrupthim, and intentionally too. That is
what you are saying, And ofthat you will never persuade me nor any
other human being. But either Ido not corrupt them, or I corrupt
them unintentionally, so that on eitherview of the case. You lie.

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If my offense is unintentional, thelaw has no cognizance of unintentional offenses.
You ought to have taken me privatelyand warned and admonished me. For if
I had been better advised, Ishould have left off doing what I only
did unintentionally, no doubt I should. Whereas you hated to converse with me

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or teach me. But you indictedme in this court, which is a
place not of instruction but of punishment. I have shown Athenians as I was
saying, that Melitus has no careat all, great or small about the
matter. But still I should liketo know Melitus in what I am affirmed
to corrupt the youth. I supposeyou mean, as I infer from your

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indictment, that I teach them notto acknowledge the gods which the state acknowledges,
but some other new divinities or spiritualagencies in their stead. These are
the lessons which corrupt the youth.As you say, yes that I say
emphatically, then by the Gods,Melitus of whom we are speaking, tell

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me and the court in somewhat plainerterms, what you mean. For I
do not as yet understand whether youaffirm that I teach others to acknowledge some
gods, and therefore do believe ingods, and am not an entire atheist.
This you do not lay to mycharge, but only that they are
not the same gods which the cityrecognizes. The charge is that they are

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different gods? Or do you meanto say that I am an atheist simply
and a teacher of atheism? Imean the latter, that you are a
complete atheist. That is an extraordinarystatement, Melitus. Why do you say
that? Do you mean that Ido not believe in the godhead of the
Sun or moon, which is thecommon creed of all men. I assure

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you, judges that he does notbelieve in them, for he says that
the Sun is stone and the moonearth. Friend, Melitus, you think
you are accusing Anaxagoras, and youhave put but a bad opinion of the
judges, if you fancy them ignorantto such a degree as not to know
that those doctrines are found in thebooks of Anaxagoras and Klazomenian, who is

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full of them. And these arethe doctrines which the youth are said to
learn of Socrates when there are notunfrequently exhibitions of them at the theater price
of admission one drachma at the most, and they might cheaply purchase them.
And laugh at Socrates if he pretendsto father such eccentricities. And so,

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Malitus, you really think that Ido not believe in any god. I
swear by Zeus that you believe absolutelyand none at all. You are a
liar Militus, not believed even byyourself. For I cannot help thinking,
o, men of Athens, thatMilitus is reckless and impudent, and that

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he has written this indictment in aspirit of mere wantonness and youthful bravado.
Has he not compounded a riddle?Thinking to try me? He said to
himself, I shall see whether thiswise Socrates will discover my ingenious contradiction,
or whether I shall be able todeceive him and the rest of them.
Or he certainly does appear to meto contradict himself in the indictment, as

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much as if he said that Socratesis guilty of not believing in the gods,
and yet of believing in them.But this surely is a piece of
fun. I should like you,O men of Athens, to join me
in examining what I conceive to behis inconsistency. And do you Elitis answer?
And I must remind you that youare not to interrupt me if I

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speak in my accustomed manner. Didever man Elitus believe in the existence of
human things and not of human beings? I wish men of Athens, that
he would answer and not be alwaystrying to get up an interruption. Did
ever any man believe in horsemanship andnot in horses? Or in flute playing
and not in flute players. No, my friend, I will answer to

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you and to the court. Asyou refuse to answer for yourself, there
is no man whoever did. Butnow please to answer the next question.
Can and believe in spiritual and divineagencies and not in spirits or demigods?
He cannot. I am glad thatI have extracted that answer by the assistance

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of the court. Nevertheless, youswear in the indictment that I teach and
believe in divine or spiritual agencies newor old, no matter, for that
at any rate, I believe inspiritual agencies, as you say and swear
in the affidavit. But if Ibelieve in divine beings, I must believe
in spirits or demigods. Is notthat true? Yes, that is true.

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For I may assume that your silencegives assent to that. Now,
what are spirits or demigods? Arethey not either gods or the sons of
gods? Is that true? Yes, that is true. But this is
just the ingenious riddle of which Iwas speaking. The demigods or spirits are

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gods. And you say first thatI don't believe in gods, and then
again that I do believe in gods, that is if I believe in demigods.
For if the demigods are the illegitimatesons of gods, whether by the
nymphs or by any other mothers,as is thought that as all men will
allow, necessarily implies the existence oftheir parents. You might as well affirm

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the existence of mules and deny thatof horses and asses. Such nonsense,
Malitius, could only have been intendedby you as a trial of me.
You have put this into the indictmentbecause you had nothing real of which to
accuse me. But no one whohas a particle of understanding will ever be
convinced by you that the same mancan believe in divine and superhuman things and

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yet not believe that there are godsand demigods and heroes. I have said
enough in answer to the charge ofbelitis. An elaborate defense is unnecessary.
But as I was saying before,I certainly have many enemies, and this
is what will be my destruction ifI am destroyed. Of that, I
am certain not Melitus, nor yetAnetus, but the envy and detraction of

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the world, which has been thedeath of many good men, and will
probably be the death of many more. There is no danger of my being
the last of them. Someone willsay, are you not ashamed, Socrates
of a course of life which islikely to bring you to an untimely end?
To him, I may fairly answer, there you are mistaken. A

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man who is good for anything oughtnot to calculate the chance of living or
dying. He ought only to considerwhether in doing anything he is doing right
or wrong, acting the part ofa good man or of a bad Whereas,
according to your view, the heroeswho fell at Troy were not good
for much, and the son ofThetis above all, who altogether despised danger

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in comparison with disgrace. And whenhis goddess Mother said to him, in
his eagerness to slay Hector, thatif he avenged his companion Patroclus and slow
Hector, he would die himself.Fate, as she said, waits upon
you next after Hector. He hearingthis, utterly despised danger and death,

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and instead of fearing them, fearedrather to live in dishonor, and not
to avenge his friend. Let medie next, he replies, and be
avenged of my enemy, rather thanabide here by the beacon ships, a
scorn and a burden of the earthand Achilles. And he thought of death
and danger. For wherever a man'splace is, whether the place which he

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has chosen or that in which hehas been placed by a commander, there
he ought to remain in the hourof danger, he should not think of
death or of anything but of disgrace. And this, O, Men of
Athens, is a true saying.Strange indeed would be my conduct, O,
Men of Athens, if I who, when I was ordered by the

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generals whom you chose to command meat Potudea and Amphipolis and Delium, remained
where they placed me like any otherman, facing death. If I say,
now, when as I conceive andimagine, God orders me to fulfill
the philosopher's mission of searching into myselfand other men, I were to desert

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my post through fear of death orany other fear, that would indeed be
strange, and I might justly bearraigned in court for denying the existence of
the gods. If I disobeyed theoracle because I was afraid of death,
then I should be fancying that Iwas wise when I was not wise.
For this fear of death is indeedthe pretense of wisdom, and not real

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wisdom, being the appearance of knowingthe unknown. Since no one knows whether
death, which they, in theirfear apprehend to be the greatest evil,
may not be the great good?Is there not here conceit of knowledge,
which is a disgraceful sort of ignorance. And this is the point in which,
as I think I am superior tomen in general, and in which

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I might perhaps fancy myself wiser thanother men. That, whereas I know
but little of the work below,I do not suppose that I know.
But I do know that in justiceand disobedience to a better whether God or
man is evil and dishonorable, andI will never fear or avoid a possible

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good rather than a certain evil.And therefore, if you let me go
now, and reject the counsels ofAnetus, who said that if I were
not put to death, I oughtnot to have been prosecuted, and that
if I escape now, your sonswill all be utterly ruined by listening to
my words. If you say tome Socrates, this time, we will

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not mind Anetys and will let youoff, but upon one condition that you
are not to inquire and speculate inthis way anymore, and that if you
are caught doing this again, youshall die. If this was the condition
on which you let me go,I should reply, Men of Athens,
I honor and love you, butI shall obey God rather than you.

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And while I have life and strength, I shall never cease from the practice
and teaching of philosophy, exhorting anyonewhom I meet after my manner and convincing
him saying, O, my friend, why do you, who are a
citizen of the great and mighty andwise city of Athens care so much about
laying up the greatest amount of moneyand honor and reputation, and so little

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about wisdom and truth and the greatestimprovement of the soul, which you never
regard or heed at all? Areyou not ashamed of this? And if
the person with whom I am arguingsays yes, but I do care,
I do not depart or let himgo at once, I interrogate and examine

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and cross examine him. And ifI think that he has no virtue,
but only says that he has,I reproach him with undervaluing the greater and
overvaluing the less. And this Ishould say to every one whom I meet,
young and old, citizen and alien, but especially to the citizens,
inasmuch as they are my brethren.For this is the command of God,

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as I would have you know.And I believe that to this day no
greater good has ever happen'd in thestate than my service to the God.
For I do nothing but go aboutpersuading you, all old and young alike,
not to take thought for your personsand your properties, but first and
chiefly to care about the greatest improvementof the soul. I tell you that

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virtue is not given by money,but that from virtue come money, and
every other good of man public aswell as private. This is my teaching.
And if this is the doctrine whichcorrupts the youth, my influence is
ruinous. Indeed. But if anyonesays that this is not my teaching,

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he is speaking an untruth. Wherefore, o men of Athens, I say
to you, do as Anatus bids, or not as Anatus bids, and
either acquit me or not. Butwhatever you do, know that I shall
never alter my ways, not evenif I have to die many times.

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And of Part two of the Apologyof Socrates by Plato in the translation by
Benjamin Jowat recording by Father Zilee,Detroit, Michigan,