July 14, 2025 • 31 mins
Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcome
Today's guest is Margo Steines, author of Brutalities: A Love Story. In this episode, we discuss Margo's experience as a dominatrix, sex work then vs. now, the toxic societal pressures on women's bodies in the 90s and how that resulted in eating disorders for both of us, her stint as a high-rise welder, advice she would give her former self about an abusive relationship, what it was like to be pregnant during the pandemic, how she feels about motherhood, and more. Follow Margo on Instagram @redstateblues.
For more episodes like this, search Private Parts Unknown wherever you listen to podcasts or visit privatepartsunknown.com.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
Today's guest is Margo Steines, author of Brutalities: A Love Story. In this episode, we discuss Margo's experience as a dominatrix, sex work then vs. now, the toxic societal pressures on women's bodies in the 90s and how that resulted in eating disorders for both of us, her stint as a high-rise welder, advice she would give her former self about an abusive relationship, what it was like to be pregnant during the pandemic, how she feels about motherhood, and more. Follow Margo on Instagram @redstateblues.
For more episodes like this, search Private Parts Unknown wherever you listen to podcasts or visit privatepartsunknown.com.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
- Start a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar
- Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar
- The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writeordiemag.com/workshops/p/the-multi-passionate-writers-life
- How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminar
- Creating Your Podcast: https://www.roadmapwriters.com/products/creating-your-podcast-0
- Podcasting for Writers: How to Start, Sustain & Grow Your Podcast: https://writingworkshops.com/products/podcasting-for-writers-how-to-start-sustain-grow-your-podcast-4-week-zoom-workshop
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
And bleed.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Coosak,
and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Hey Bleeders, I am hard at work on my revision
(00:37):
for my debut memoir, Girl Gone Wild, which will be
out in November twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I am just trying to leave it all on the page.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I am like totally blinders on focused on the rewrite.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I want to make sure I don't.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Have any regrets.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
And because of that, I am bringing you something a
little bit different today.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Over on my other podcast, Private Parts.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Unknown, I sometimes have authors that I really admire who
are writing about things like motherhood or sex, work.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Or Polliam Marie or.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Whatever the case might be, come on the podcast, and
it's not necessarily all writing centric. Occasionally it veers that direction,
but we are usually talking about their books. So today
I'm going to share a conversation with Margo Steinis. She's
the author of Brutalities, a love story, which is such
(01:36):
a fucking good book.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
If you have not read it, definitely check it out.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I am actually planning to go back and give it
another close read because I would love to interview Margo.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
For this podcast, but we spoke a while.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Back for Private Parts Unknown. She talks a little bit
about her next project. In the conversation, She's just so cool.
She gave me like the best words of wisdom about
being a flawed mother. It was just a really good conversation,
one of my all time faves.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So I'm dropping it on this feed today.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I know you're gonna love it, and if you're hungry
for more, go on over to the Private Parts Unknown feed.
So look up Private Parts Unknown, hit follow or subscribe
or whatever the button is, and then check out the
archive because I have a conversation with Cameron De's and
Hammond that's so good. I have a convo with Hannah Sward.
(02:31):
There's a ton in the archives, so just give it
a peruse and then.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I will be back next week with a.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Regular episode of The Bleeders, So I'll.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
See you again.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Then you were listening to a pleasure podcast. For more
from our sex podcast collective, visit Pleasure Podcasts Dot com.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Welcome back to Private Parts Unknown, a podcast about love
and sexuality.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Around the world.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I'm Courtney Kosak, and today Privates we are getting brutal.
That is right, I am talking to Margo Steinis, author
of Brutalities, a Love Story, which is such.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
A freaking good book.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I got the recommendation from another writer, Amanda Monte, who
I took a workshop from, and it was such a
good recommendation. I gobbled this book right up and then
I was like, shit, I gotta have Margo on the podcast.
I feel like I have adjacent kind of issues as Margo,
(03:45):
not exact, but like we grew up in the same era,
We're about the same age, and we've definitely had the
same kind of cultural influences.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
On our bodies, on our sexualities.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And it was really interesting to talk to her after
reading the book. Just because y'all at home probably haven't
read the book yet, which I highly recommend picking it up.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I want to read a little description. So here we go.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Quarantined in a southwestern desert city in the midst of
her high risk pregnancy, Margo Steinis felt her life narrow
around her growing body, compelling her to reckon with the
violence entangled in its history. She was a professional dominatrix
in New York City, a homestead farmer in a brutal relationship,
a welder on a high rise building crew, and a
(04:38):
mixed martial arts enthusiast. Each of her many lives brought
a new perspective on how power and masculinity coalesce and
how far she could push her body toward the brink
with unflinching candor. Steinus searches for the roots of her
erstwhile attraction to pain, while charting the complicated triumph of
gentleness and love.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Oh you guys so good.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You should definitely order that right now. There is a
link in the episode notes, so go ahead and order
Brutalities a love story. I think you will very much
enjoy it if you are a reader. And I wanted
to bring Margo on the show because there are so
many relevant topics that we could talk about on the podcast,
(05:21):
and we did. We talked about her experience as a dominatrix.
We talked a little bit about ed and the culture
that we grew up in and how that affected how
we felt about our bodies. We talked about Hurston as
a high rise welder and an abusive relationship. And then
we also talked about pregnancy, which I am thinking about
(05:44):
maybe maybe having a baby. I am also forty, so
I don't know how much longer that's going to be possible,
but I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking real hard, and
so I definitely asked Margo about that too. But I
really hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And here we go. Enjoy the interview.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Hi. I'm Margo Steinis, and I am the author of
Brutality Is a Love Story.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Some of the pain and compulsion in your book starts
with ed and same for me. Grew up in the
nineties and it was so much a part of the
culture and it's so different now. So I guess I
would love to hear your perspective on that, like paint
the picture of this culture that made us sick.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And then how weird is it that you know?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I feel like the body confidence era is awesome, but
it's so foreign to my experience growing up.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Yeah, I don't know how old you are. I was
born in nineteen eighty two, and I have to say
in my home, like my family of origin, my parents
and specifically my mom was like very saying in normal
about all of these things, which is interesting, but the
broader culture, and like I grew up in Manhattan. It
was like when I was like hospitalized for anorexia, that
(07:07):
was like the time that I looked exceptable in Manhattan,
do you know what I mean? Yeah, And like people
would tell me on the street that I looked great,
you know, and I was like I had like a
feeding tube inserted the next day. That was normal. Skinny
was a compliment being like muscular or thick in any way,
and like this is I will say, like this is
(07:27):
a white perspective, but it was also like very much
part of the dominant culture. You know. It was like
hat Moss was very in the media everywhere, and that
was like the aspirational body. And there was only one
body that you were allowed to have and it was
that one. And you know, as a young person, like
you received this shit like a sponge. It's not like
(07:49):
someone sat me down and said something harmful to me.
It's like I came from everywhere, and you know, I,
at a young age realized how much power I had
from my own body and that I could make it
what I wanted. And I didn't have any sense of
consequence about any of that, so I just wanted to
do that and then you know, it like mistastasizes into
(08:09):
a whole psychological disorder. But I think you can't blame
at all in the culture. But I do think a
lot of it.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, No, it was huge.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It's like so bizarre now to see sometimes they'll bring
back certain tabloid covers or whatever of like the times
we thought Jessica Simpson was fat.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And it's like, oh my god, no, wonder Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
I mean I remember being like probably like nine years
old and like my friend was on the diet that
her mother and put her on. You know, that was
that shit was very normal and it was like for
her help, you know. But it's like, was it or
was it to make her acceptable in a way that
was legible to the dominant culture.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, yeah, no, And we didn't see I mean, like
Lena Dunham, what U inspiration? Just like you can be
a big woman and be successful. I feel like that
wasn't even really a possibility at the time.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
And she's like not even that's like the other I know,
I know. Yeah, it's like I think like the range
of bodies that were allowed to see. And I think
social media has actually, for all its farms, been good
for that because you see people in their bodies, like
you know, and in New York. Growing up in New York,
you see everyone out on the street. But you know,
now I live in a car culture, and like you
(09:25):
don't see people that much, and you know, seeing people
like being fit and all sizes and all that, like
that was not around.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Okay, So I have always wanted to be a dom.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I it's it is problematic that you know, you got
recruited at seventeen, but I totally understand like the yes
of it. If somebody would have tried to recruit me
at seventeen, I would have also been like, yes, so
tell us about that experience and yeah, then I want
(09:59):
to do it like then versus now.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Well, I mean, I think part of my problem was
that I just always felt a inflated sense of my
own adulthood from like a pretty young age. You know.
It was why a lot of reasons, but so it
wasn't that I didn't know it was like a stupid
and reckless thing to do. I was like, this is
the choice I'm making, you know, And so I all
(10:28):
of a sudden, it was like making me a lot
of money.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Now I'm like looking back along was it a lot
of money? It was definitely not as much money as
I should have been having have a lot of cash,
you know, And all of a sudden, I was like, oh,
I can get an apartner. I can you know, leave
my parents home where I am not you know, sort
of allowed to act in the ways that I want
to act. And you know, for me, the work itself
(10:52):
initially was secondary to like the money and the freedom.
And I still, you know, like you said, like I
see the problematic and harmful parts of like how I
entered the industry. But for me, sex work brought me
a lot of freedom. And that doesn't mean it didn't
also have hans, but there was a lot of freedom
attached to it, and I got to live as I pleased,
(11:16):
and you know, big cruture of my life that was
that was good for me because I got to form
out faster and like get myself together a little faster.
But you know, I met this man in the course
of my work there who you know, the man in
the book, And then I sort of started getting into
that world in my own life in a very confusing way.
But initially it was really just about like you know,
(11:39):
like I think if someone had recruited me to like,
I don't know, be like a high end like booster,
like I would have done that too, Like I just.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Like run drugs or something like yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, totally like some heroin I guess buying.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So I feel like the way that we talk about
sex work has changed so much, probably from when you
were doing you know, from when you started. So, yeah,
what is your take on like sex work then versus now?
Because you know, I am an only fans. I never
have to interact with my fans on like a physical level,
(12:22):
you know.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, Well, I mean a lot of things have changed.
I think the politicization of sex work and even that
we use that language like that is new in my lifetime.
It was you know, politicized inside small circles of advocacy,
but you know, they were very niche, and no one
that wasn't personally affected. They gave the shit. It was
(12:44):
not a cool thing to be doing when I was
doing it, right, like in my little circle of like
bartenders and drug addicts, it was a little cool. But
like once you let like you know, all of the
words that we use for sex workers, like all the
conserlative words, those were just like descriptive words, do you
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (12:59):
And I for whatever reason, like from fairly early on,
I was like pretty open and out as a sex worker.
And what that did was that it defined my communities
as people who were like also involved in you know,
like marginal shit. And there was only there were only
only so many spaces you could live in if you
(13:20):
were doing that work and being open about it, right,
And a lot of people that I worked with were
closeted and worked in secret and all of that. And
now it's like, I think the barrier to entry has
changed a lot because you don't need to like divest
from having like a normal life, Like you can do
online sex work and like have it as a side
(13:41):
hustle and unless you're like a takes care, you know,
it doesn't really have to affect your life in any
other way. And you know, with technology, like you can
do it anonymously in different ways like that. And then
also like with the advent of technology, there's so much
terrifying stuff around the order control the way that sex
work is least using AI and technology and like all
(14:03):
of this, so like, you know, it's gotten safer and
more accepted, and also you know, the cuscial system has
imployed all these new technologies to also like make it
dangerous in new ways. So I don't know if it's
gotten like broadly safer, and I think it depends a
lot on like your provision how you're working totally.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
You talk a little bit in the book about, you know,
even being a dominatrix is like a privileged level of
sex work, and I do have the same kind of
feeling about you know, you talk about being out about
sex work and like that is part of making it
more acceptable. And so even though it is a privileged
(14:46):
level of sex work, you are taking that position and
being out about it. So hopefully it does make the
harder levels, you know, more accepted as well.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, I mean I do think that like if as
many people who can and afford whatever that means to
you to talk about it would do that, Like I
do think that that would move the needle in a
good direction for people who can't, for you know, reasons
of various marginalization talk about what they're doing. And you know,
the work I did was like quasi legal where it
(15:18):
wasn't really like a lot of the stuff I actually
did was, but the premise of my business wasn't, which
is like not true for a lot of people. And
you know that changes the way you can be in public.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
About it, and even like the shift of the language
like you were talking about, like that's a part of
it too. Yeah, So at the same kind of time
in the book, there's this toxic relationship, and I've had
my own a.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Series of toxic relationships. How do you think about it now?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
You know, as like a healthier adult, what would you
tell your younger self?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And like do you think that would have made a difference?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I mean, like my full answer is like stay away
from the bad man. But no, I mean, I don't know.
I think it's one of the things that brings me
a lot of pieces, like the idea that like we
can't go back and change little bits of our lives
without changing everything, and like I like that have now
where I'm at, And you know, my eggs brought a
(16:23):
lot of art into my life and also like brought
a lot of things that were good into it. But
there's a mixed bag, do you know what I mean?
And I think I also think like I would absolutely
have dated someone else who was fondful, perhaps in like
more treacherous ways, that I had not dated him. I
do sometimes wish that I had been able to extricate
(16:43):
myself sooner, because that my life didn't start until like
he left me, you know, And I just wish I
could have some more time sometimes, but you know, it
is what it is.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, So the high rise welding, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
For me, the hard part would for sure be the
fear of heights, but that was not your issue. Just
tell us, yeah, like what inspired you to go into this,
and then a little bit about your experience doing it? Well.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
So I had only ever been a sex worker and
like a failed waitress. And my boyfriend, this guy, he
was just really embarrassed with me and really unkind about.
He didn't like how I looked in public, not how
I looked, but like how I present it, Like he
didn't like intersting like his girlfriend, but in his words
like the hooker. So I was like, I want him
(17:33):
to take me seriously. I want him to be impressed
with me. I want him to be proud of me,
like total you know, toxic, like I projected me as
a father figure all of that shit, and she's still
contractor and very successful and like did it his own way,
very talented, and I respected what he did a lot,
but really it was just like I want him to
think that I was acceptable. So I was like, Okay,
(17:55):
I'm going to do that too. And I liked also
the idea of being like the most likely person to
do that work and be good at that work. So
I went and I did that, and I did it
for years.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That's insane.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Yeah, now I'm like, that was really good choice, and
like I loved being a welder, and you know, after
I got trained and that good at it, it wasn't
you know about him anymore. There was a lot that
I liked about it, but it was also like I
was not using we all get embedded with like some
skills in this life, and I was not using the
ones that I have. I was like trying to force
(18:32):
myself to have ones that I made, you know. And
also just it's so physically it is a demanding job
in a way that you know, now that I work
in this office in my jammis, I'm like, oh, this
is a lot nicer in a lot of ways, and
you know, maybe I wouldn't have appreciated this if I
hadn't done that, but you know, physical labor is a
(18:53):
different kind of life.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, and it sounds like you were working with like
exclusively and the entire time basically.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yeah, like here or there, I would have like one
or two you know, colleagues, but it was like, you know,
I know all their names by heart. There were so
a few of them.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So tell us about the guys. A mixed bag, mid bag.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
So I started working at this place, it was, oh
my god, it is still like the coolest because I've
ever been. They make the most beautiful bespoke metal were
architectural metal work. And all the guys that I went
to pat which is like an art school in Brooklyn,
and they were just like cool as shit. They were
really they were artisans before that was like a hipster thing,
(19:37):
you know. And we worked in the navy yard before
it was a hipster place. And I just fucking loved it.
And they mentored me a lot, and one person in particular,
who I'm still close friends, but he really taught me
how to weald and you know, helped me become employable.
And then I got a union book, which I had
(19:58):
to take because it was like actually paid a living waves,
you know, which like I never thought I would be
able to do about being made in some way, you know,
and all of a sudden I made. I was making
a grown up money. But I was working on these
big CRUs of you know, guys that like I came
to find community with, but on first impression, like they're
pretty intimitating. They're like the guys that are coming at
(20:19):
you from behind the scaffolding, yeah, you know. And I
was like, Hi, look I'm here. And you know, some
of them were very kind to me. A lot of
them were not very pleased that I was there and
expressed that in different ways. It was like generally a
very uncomfortable work environment for me.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
It's like you walk into work and there's three thousand
men lined up on the street, Like just that's a
hard feeling. And I'm sensitive and very attuned to like
what people are thinking about me, and that's a hard thing.
And then like the work is like oh also, and
then you have to go like walk out on the
fucking steel and like you're twenty stories up, which was
honestly the least of my Concerah, I'm so afraid of
being embarrassed and of these times that was like frivolousment
(21:05):
in the way.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Oh my goodness, so intense. Okay, so there's so much
other good stuff in the book. Everyone should read it.
I want to talk to you about pregnancy in specific.
I am considering, so I am asking everyone I know
(21:29):
about their experience.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So tell me about.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yours, like where you were going into it, and what
you loved, what you hated, what you found surprising.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I wanted to be pregnant for a very long time.
I had a combination of infertility and mautha right partner
for a very long time. And when I met my
partner almost right away, I was like, Okay, this is time.
I really wanted to be with him. I loved being pregnant.
I was pregnant during the pandemic. That made it very
(22:03):
very hard. No one of my friends and family even
saw me the entire time. I remained devastated. But pregnancy itself,
like it really changed and revealed a lot about the
way I lived with my own body, because once it
wasn't like just like an object of presentation of self,
(22:24):
and once it was like something that someone else needed.
I realized how differently I cared for it, and how
like even in you know, recovery from all the various
things that I've recovered from, like I still had treated
myself pretty brutally most of the time, so that was
not always comfortable, but like definitely good information. And then
it's just like it's so fucking wild. It's like something
(22:45):
is growing inside of you and weird stuff like you
get this line up your butt crack like when the
baby's about to come. Just like it's so strange. It's
like your body is a science experiment and some of
it is really rough and horrible, and some of it
is like miraculous, and it's like everyday a new thing.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
You know. Was it triggery for the ed or you
were just like, no, I'm a vessel, Like I'm gonna
go with it, like.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
A little bit like I remember when they were like, look,
I didn't gain enough weight, and they were kind of
like houndling me about that, and it was something about
that that felt good, and I was like that's not normal,
you know, but no, it felt like I was briefly
outside of like the system of standards for a human woman,
(23:35):
like I didn't have to do that anymore. That was
this other thing, you know, and then like some of
the changes I like like I got big breasts for
the first time in my life, and I was like, oh,
I like I didn't I didn't know I would like these.
I think afterwards is actually when it felt more like
that where I was like, oh, I'm just like a
just sloppy, used up sack of a person. Like I
(23:58):
didn't feel good because it wasn't I was no longer
like you know, in service to the baby. In the
same way, it was just like here I am with
like the detritus of what I used to be. Yeah,
so it makes.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Bad, okay, So that is the terrifying part for me.
Tell me about the identity shift if you felt anything
with that or if it was all just totally welcome
and the like body stuff.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
After I mean, I definitely didn't feel like I became
like a mom in like the way that on the
internet you're supposed to like. I was like, I just
still felt very messy and very self involved, and I
didn't have a life.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Moving so nice.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I didn't want one, you know, but I do. I
definitely softened, like just emotionally, like I feel much more
affected by you know, when I witness suffering, it affects
me in a way that Nay never used to And like,
I don't but I don't think I could watch the
Phones again, you know. I think that was just set
(24:58):
and I used to be like just I could watch anything.
It never gave me a feeling, you know. And then afterwards,
I don't know, I had a pretty rough postpartum, so
I don't think this is necessarily standard, but it was
very difficult to move into the space of like being
a parent and then sort of recover, mostly because I
(25:20):
didn't have any time because I had to go back
to work immediately. My partner, I had to go back
to work immediately. I was like, you know, doing emails
with a laptop on my moveorn's head, which was not
my own personal failing. It's like a failing of this
fucking culture. And when I read about people in Europe
who get to take six months off and like bomb
up the baby, I'm like, oh, that would have been different.
(25:40):
For sure. We both have a small business and my
employer was not particularly humane, and that's how it went.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So for the podcast, we went to Finland, and it's
so different over there.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's like they give you a.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Package of a crib and like everything you need, and
they have not just maternity leave, but paternity leave, you know,
Like the system so different and it's so designed with
the woman in mind.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It made me really sad.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah, really, I wish I could have had a different experience.
And then with a lot of the work for me,
it's just done letting go with that cause I didn't
I have It was like it was an unprecedented time.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah. Yeah, do you like being a parent?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I do? Yeah. No, I'm super close with my kid
and I'm They're the best. It's no regrets. No, life
is very hard. Like that I can hold those things
and you know, each hand at the same time. And
I didn't have to change in a lot of the
ways that I had feared or been warned about, Like
(26:52):
I'm still myself and then like petty and irreverent and
all the things that I've always been. And she and
I just vibe, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Ah, I love that. Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay, oh, I'm going to leave it at that. So
this is for the writers in the house. But to
tell us how the book got published.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
I have a fantastic agent, and he sold it. That
process was like pretty much out of my hand, like well,
not out of my hands, but like he handled it.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Was it a full or was it a book proposal?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
No, it was a full I was not not like
I was not willing, but like I had the whole manuscript,
and the idea of owing somebody a book really stresses
me out, like I would rather Yeah. And also it's like,
I mean, I see the argument of like knowing how
much money you're going to get, but I don't I
keep my book money, Like I don't live on that money,
do you know what I mean? Which is partly a privilegion,
(27:47):
partly hustle, but I don't ever want to like be
making creative decisions based on like what I will get
paid for it, I guess. So he sold the full manuscript,
and then I had a great editor, and it took
really a long time. I did not know it would
take this long, and not for any reason. It was
just like everything takes a long time, every round of edit.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
How long.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I had watched track of time altogether? Like the book
came out in October twenty three, and I think I
sold it in my maybe like early twenty two. I
think that could be by like a year. I don't know,
but I had written it as my m a faithing system.
Then I had a lot of like editing to do
after that, so I did a lot of work on
(28:33):
my own before the sale, and then it was kind
of just like one step after the other. Once once
it was.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Sold, nice, well, congratulations, and what are you working on now?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I am working on a book about milk that started
with the writing that I was trying to do when
my baby was new and I didn't really have any
time or any brain power, and I was just like
making little notes on my phone and then there's a
formula shortage. My child was best fed. But like once
you feed a baby, you become very assumed, so like
(29:08):
the fact that any baby anywhere might not have food.
And I was really interested also in these internet factions
of moms, of like the breastfeeding moms versus one, the
moms versus and it's just all it's just such a weird,
toxic ecosystem, and I'm being very interested in it. And
then I got interested in cows and trauma and the
ways that we would take babies away from moms to
(29:31):
have milk, and so that's.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes, I was going to ask you about breastfeeding, and
then it sounds like I need to just have you
back when that book comes out.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Well, my child is like closing in on four years
old and still nurses, So that's who I am.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Really Yeah, yeah, my god.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
I thought I would be, but it's just I just
decided I wanted to let her choose when she's done,
and she hasn't been done yet.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Well, I can't wait to read Milk. I loved Brutalities
And thank you so much for chatting with me today.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Thank you so much for having me on. It was
so fun to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Ah, that was epic. Thank you again to Margo.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
You are a treat and I can't wait to have
you back to talk about milk. Oh my god, that
sounds right up my alle You just cannot wait to read.
And thank you for tuning into this episode of Private
Parts Unknown. Stay tuned right here because I have got
another sexy episode coming your way next week. For the
latest episodes, look down and make sure you're following us
(30:40):
on your favorite podcast player now. If you are listening
on Spotify, it's like a follow and like a bell
button on most platforms, it's like a follow or a subscribe,
and to stay in touch between episodes, follow me at
Courtney Cosak that is Kocak on Instagram and Twitter. And
follow the show at Private Parts Unknown on Instagram and
(31:03):
at Private Parts on on Twitter. And check out my
other podcasts for more of my audio creations. I have
The Bleeders about book writing and publishing and podcast Vestie,
which is a best friend to podcasters trying to grow
and monetize their shows. Shout out to Amy Rouch for
the bomb ass theme music. For more info about Amy
(31:24):
and her music, check out Amy Rousch dot com. That's
Amy r a sc dot com. This episode was mixed
by my beloved audio guy, Michael Castaneda of Plastic Audio.
Thank you so much for sticking with me until the end.
Until next time, stay curious and keep exploring.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Love you, privates.
There's nothing to writing.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
All you do is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 3 (00:12):
And bleed.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Welcome to the Bleeders, a podcast and support group about
book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster Courtney Coosak,
and each week I'll bring you new conversations with authors,
agents and publishers about how to write and sell books.
Hey Bleeders, I am hard at work on my revision
(00:37):
for my debut memoir, Girl Gone Wild, which will be
out in November twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
I am just trying to leave it all on the page.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I am like totally blinders on focused on the rewrite.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
I want to make sure I don't.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
Have any regrets.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
And because of that, I am bringing you something a
little bit different today.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
Over on my other podcast, Private Parts.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Unknown, I sometimes have authors that I really admire who
are writing about things like motherhood or sex, work.
Speaker 3 (01:13):
Or Polliam Marie or.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Whatever the case might be, come on the podcast, and
it's not necessarily all writing centric. Occasionally it veers that direction,
but we are usually talking about their books. So today
I'm going to share a conversation with Margo Steinis. She's
the author of Brutalities, a love story, which is such
(01:36):
a fucking good book.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
If you have not read it, definitely check it out.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I am actually planning to go back and give it
another close read because I would love to interview Margo.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
For this podcast, but we spoke a while.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
Back for Private Parts Unknown. She talks a little bit
about her next project. In the conversation, She's just so cool.
She gave me like the best words of wisdom about
being a flawed mother. It was just a really good conversation,
one of my all time faves.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
So I'm dropping it on this feed today.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I know you're gonna love it, and if you're hungry
for more, go on over to the Private Parts Unknown feed.
So look up Private Parts Unknown, hit follow or subscribe
or whatever the button is, and then check out the
archive because I have a conversation with Cameron De's and
Hammond that's so good. I have a convo with Hannah Sward.
(02:31):
There's a ton in the archives, so just give it
a peruse and then.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
I will be back next week with a.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Regular episode of The Bleeders, So I'll.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
See you again.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Then you were listening to a pleasure podcast. For more
from our sex podcast collective, visit Pleasure Podcasts Dot com.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Welcome back to Private Parts Unknown, a podcast about love
and sexuality.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Around the world.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
I'm Courtney Kosak, and today Privates we are getting brutal.
That is right, I am talking to Margo Steinis, author
of Brutalities, a Love Story, which is such.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
A freaking good book.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I got the recommendation from another writer, Amanda Monte, who
I took a workshop from, and it was such a
good recommendation. I gobbled this book right up and then
I was like, shit, I gotta have Margo on the podcast.
I feel like I have adjacent kind of issues as Margo,
(03:45):
not exact, but like we grew up in the same era,
We're about the same age, and we've definitely had the
same kind of cultural influences.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
On our bodies, on our sexualities.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And it was really interesting to talk to her after
reading the book. Just because y'all at home probably haven't
read the book yet, which I highly recommend picking it up.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I want to read a little description. So here we go.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
Quarantined in a southwestern desert city in the midst of
her high risk pregnancy, Margo Steinis felt her life narrow
around her growing body, compelling her to reckon with the
violence entangled in its history. She was a professional dominatrix
in New York City, a homestead farmer in a brutal relationship,
a welder on a high rise building crew, and a
(04:38):
mixed martial arts enthusiast. Each of her many lives brought
a new perspective on how power and masculinity coalesce and
how far she could push her body toward the brink
with unflinching candor. Steinus searches for the roots of her
erstwhile attraction to pain, while charting the complicated triumph of
gentleness and love.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Oh you guys so good.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
You should definitely order that right now. There is a
link in the episode notes, so go ahead and order
Brutalities a love story. I think you will very much
enjoy it if you are a reader. And I wanted
to bring Margo on the show because there are so
many relevant topics that we could talk about on the podcast,
(05:21):
and we did. We talked about her experience as a dominatrix.
We talked a little bit about ed and the culture
that we grew up in and how that affected how
we felt about our bodies. We talked about Hurston as
a high rise welder and an abusive relationship. And then
we also talked about pregnancy, which I am thinking about
(05:44):
maybe maybe having a baby. I am also forty, so
I don't know how much longer that's going to be possible,
but I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking real hard, and
so I definitely asked Margo about that too. But I
really hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
And here we go. Enjoy the interview.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Hi. I'm Margo Steinis, and I am the author of
Brutality Is a Love Story.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Some of the pain and compulsion in your book starts
with ed and same for me. Grew up in the
nineties and it was so much a part of the
culture and it's so different now. So I guess I
would love to hear your perspective on that, like paint
the picture of this culture that made us sick.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And then how weird is it that you know?
Speaker 2 (06:35):
I feel like the body confidence era is awesome, but
it's so foreign to my experience growing up.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Yeah, I don't know how old you are. I was
born in nineteen eighty two, and I have to say
in my home, like my family of origin, my parents
and specifically my mom was like very saying in normal
about all of these things, which is interesting, but the
broader culture, and like I grew up in Manhattan. It
was like when I was like hospitalized for anorexia, that
(07:07):
was like the time that I looked exceptable in Manhattan,
do you know what I mean? Yeah, And like people
would tell me on the street that I looked great,
you know, and I was like I had like a
feeding tube inserted the next day. That was normal. Skinny
was a compliment being like muscular or thick in any way,
and like this is I will say, like this is
(07:27):
a white perspective, but it was also like very much
part of the dominant culture. You know. It was like
hat Moss was very in the media everywhere, and that
was like the aspirational body. And there was only one
body that you were allowed to have and it was
that one. And you know, as a young person, like
you received this shit like a sponge. It's not like
(07:49):
someone sat me down and said something harmful to me.
It's like I came from everywhere, and you know, I,
at a young age realized how much power I had
from my own body and that I could make it
what I wanted. And I didn't have any sense of
consequence about any of that, so I just wanted to
do that and then you know, it like mistastasizes into
(08:09):
a whole psychological disorder. But I think you can't blame
at all in the culture. But I do think a
lot of it.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, No, it was huge.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
It's like so bizarre now to see sometimes they'll bring
back certain tabloid covers or whatever of like the times
we thought Jessica Simpson was fat.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
And it's like, oh my god, no, wonder Yeah.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
I mean I remember being like probably like nine years
old and like my friend was on the diet that
her mother and put her on. You know, that was
that shit was very normal and it was like for
her help, you know. But it's like, was it or
was it to make her acceptable in a way that
was legible to the dominant culture.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, yeah, no, And we didn't see I mean, like
Lena Dunham, what U inspiration? Just like you can be
a big woman and be successful. I feel like that
wasn't even really a possibility at the time.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
And she's like not even that's like the other I know,
I know. Yeah, it's like I think like the range
of bodies that were allowed to see. And I think
social media has actually, for all its farms, been good
for that because you see people in their bodies, like
you know, and in New York. Growing up in New York,
you see everyone out on the street. But you know,
now I live in a car culture, and like you
(09:25):
don't see people that much, and you know, seeing people
like being fit and all sizes and all that, like
that was not around.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Okay, So I have always wanted to be a dom.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
I it's it is problematic that you know, you got
recruited at seventeen, but I totally understand like the yes
of it. If somebody would have tried to recruit me
at seventeen, I would have also been like, yes, so
tell us about that experience and yeah, then I want
(09:59):
to do it like then versus now.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
Well, I mean, I think part of my problem was
that I just always felt a inflated sense of my
own adulthood from like a pretty young age. You know.
It was why a lot of reasons, but so it
wasn't that I didn't know it was like a stupid
and reckless thing to do. I was like, this is
the choice I'm making, you know, And so I all
(10:28):
of a sudden, it was like making me a lot
of money.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
You know.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
Now I'm like looking back along was it a lot
of money? It was definitely not as much money as
I should have been having have a lot of cash,
you know, And all of a sudden, I was like, oh,
I can get an apartner. I can you know, leave
my parents home where I am not you know, sort
of allowed to act in the ways that I want
to act. And you know, for me, the work itself
(10:52):
initially was secondary to like the money and the freedom.
And I still, you know, like you said, like I
see the problematic and harmful parts of like how I
entered the industry. But for me, sex work brought me
a lot of freedom. And that doesn't mean it didn't
also have hans, but there was a lot of freedom
attached to it, and I got to live as I pleased,
(11:16):
and you know, big cruture of my life that was
that was good for me because I got to form
out faster and like get myself together a little faster.
But you know, I met this man in the course
of my work there who you know, the man in
the book, And then I sort of started getting into
that world in my own life in a very confusing way.
But initially it was really just about like you know,
(11:39):
like I think if someone had recruited me to like,
I don't know, be like a high end like booster,
like I would have done that too, Like I just.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Like run drugs or something like yeah, sure.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah, totally like some heroin I guess buying.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
So I feel like the way that we talk about
sex work has changed so much, probably from when you
were doing you know, from when you started. So, yeah,
what is your take on like sex work then versus now?
Because you know, I am an only fans. I never
have to interact with my fans on like a physical level,
(12:22):
you know.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
Yeah, Well, I mean a lot of things have changed.
I think the politicization of sex work and even that
we use that language like that is new in my lifetime.
It was you know, politicized inside small circles of advocacy,
but you know, they were very niche, and no one
that wasn't personally affected. They gave the shit. It was
(12:44):
not a cool thing to be doing when I was
doing it, right, like in my little circle of like
bartenders and drug addicts, it was a little cool. But
like once you let like you know, all of the
words that we use for sex workers, like all the
conserlative words, those were just like descriptive words, do you
know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (12:59):
And I for whatever reason, like from fairly early on,
I was like pretty open and out as a sex worker.
And what that did was that it defined my communities
as people who were like also involved in you know,
like marginal shit. And there was only there were only
only so many spaces you could live in if you
(13:20):
were doing that work and being open about it, right,
And a lot of people that I worked with were
closeted and worked in secret and all of that. And
now it's like, I think the barrier to entry has
changed a lot because you don't need to like divest
from having like a normal life, Like you can do
online sex work and like have it as a side
(13:41):
hustle and unless you're like a takes care, you know,
it doesn't really have to affect your life in any
other way. And you know, with technology, like you can
do it anonymously in different ways like that. And then
also like with the advent of technology, there's so much
terrifying stuff around the order control the way that sex
work is least using AI and technology and like all
(14:03):
of this, so like, you know, it's gotten safer and
more accepted, and also you know, the cuscial system has
imployed all these new technologies to also like make it
dangerous in new ways. So I don't know if it's
gotten like broadly safer, and I think it depends a
lot on like your provision how you're working totally.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
You talk a little bit in the book about, you know,
even being a dominatrix is like a privileged level of
sex work, and I do have the same kind of
feeling about you know, you talk about being out about
sex work and like that is part of making it
more acceptable. And so even though it is a privileged
(14:46):
level of sex work, you are taking that position and
being out about it. So hopefully it does make the
harder levels, you know, more accepted as well.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
Yeah, I mean I do think that like if as
many people who can and afford whatever that means to
you to talk about it would do that, Like I
do think that that would move the needle in a
good direction for people who can't, for you know, reasons
of various marginalization talk about what they're doing. And you know,
the work I did was like quasi legal where it
(15:18):
wasn't really like a lot of the stuff I actually
did was, but the premise of my business wasn't, which
is like not true for a lot of people. And
you know that changes the way you can be in public.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
About it, and even like the shift of the language
like you were talking about, like that's a part of
it too. Yeah, So at the same kind of time
in the book, there's this toxic relationship, and I've had
my own a.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Series of toxic relationships. How do you think about it now?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
You know, as like a healthier adult, what would you
tell your younger self?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
And like do you think that would have made a difference?
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I mean, like my full answer is like stay away
from the bad man. But no, I mean, I don't know.
I think it's one of the things that brings me
a lot of pieces, like the idea that like we
can't go back and change little bits of our lives
without changing everything, and like I like that have now
where I'm at, And you know, my eggs brought a
(16:23):
lot of art into my life and also like brought
a lot of things that were good into it. But
there's a mixed bag, do you know what I mean?
And I think I also think like I would absolutely
have dated someone else who was fondful, perhaps in like
more treacherous ways, that I had not dated him. I
do sometimes wish that I had been able to extricate
(16:43):
myself sooner, because that my life didn't start until like
he left me, you know, And I just wish I
could have some more time sometimes, but you know, it
is what it is.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah, So the high rise welding, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
For me, the hard part would for sure be the
fear of heights, but that was not your issue. Just
tell us, yeah, like what inspired you to go into this,
and then a little bit about your experience doing it? Well.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
So I had only ever been a sex worker and
like a failed waitress. And my boyfriend, this guy, he
was just really embarrassed with me and really unkind about.
He didn't like how I looked in public, not how
I looked, but like how I present it, Like he
didn't like intersting like his girlfriend, but in his words
like the hooker. So I was like, I want him
(17:33):
to take me seriously. I want him to be impressed
with me. I want him to be proud of me,
like total you know, toxic, like I projected me as
a father figure all of that shit, and she's still
contractor and very successful and like did it his own way,
very talented, and I respected what he did a lot,
but really it was just like I want him to
think that I was acceptable. So I was like, Okay,
(17:55):
I'm going to do that too. And I liked also
the idea of being like the most likely person to
do that work and be good at that work. So
I went and I did that, and I did it
for years.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That's insane.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Yeah, now I'm like, that was really good choice, and
like I loved being a welder, and you know, after
I got trained and that good at it, it wasn't
you know about him anymore. There was a lot that
I liked about it, but it was also like I
was not using we all get embedded with like some
skills in this life, and I was not using the
ones that I have. I was like trying to force
(18:32):
myself to have ones that I made, you know. And
also just it's so physically it is a demanding job
in a way that you know, now that I work
in this office in my jammis, I'm like, oh, this
is a lot nicer in a lot of ways, and
you know, maybe I wouldn't have appreciated this if I
hadn't done that, but you know, physical labor is a
(18:53):
different kind of life.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, and it sounds like you were working with like
exclusively and the entire time basically.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yeah, like here or there, I would have like one
or two you know, colleagues, but it was like, you know,
I know all their names by heart. There were so
a few of them.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
So tell us about the guys. A mixed bag, mid bag.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
So I started working at this place, it was, oh
my god, it is still like the coolest because I've
ever been. They make the most beautiful bespoke metal were
architectural metal work. And all the guys that I went
to pat which is like an art school in Brooklyn,
and they were just like cool as shit. They were
really they were artisans before that was like a hipster thing,
(19:37):
you know. And we worked in the navy yard before
it was a hipster place. And I just fucking loved it.
And they mentored me a lot, and one person in particular,
who I'm still close friends, but he really taught me
how to weald and you know, helped me become employable.
And then I got a union book, which I had
(19:58):
to take because it was like actually paid a living waves,
you know, which like I never thought I would be
able to do about being made in some way, you know,
and all of a sudden I made. I was making
a grown up money. But I was working on these
big CRUs of you know, guys that like I came
to find community with, but on first impression, like they're
pretty intimitating. They're like the guys that are coming at
(20:19):
you from behind the scaffolding, yeah, you know. And I
was like, Hi, look I'm here. And you know, some
of them were very kind to me. A lot of
them were not very pleased that I was there and
expressed that in different ways. It was like generally a
very uncomfortable work environment for me.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
You know.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
It's like you walk into work and there's three thousand
men lined up on the street, Like just that's a
hard feeling. And I'm sensitive and very attuned to like
what people are thinking about me, and that's a hard thing.
And then like the work is like oh also, and
then you have to go like walk out on the
fucking steel and like you're twenty stories up, which was
honestly the least of my Concerah, I'm so afraid of
being embarrassed and of these times that was like frivolousment
(21:05):
in the way.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Oh my goodness, so intense. Okay, so there's so much
other good stuff in the book. Everyone should read it.
I want to talk to you about pregnancy in specific.
I am considering, so I am asking everyone I know
(21:29):
about their experience.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
So tell me about.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Yours, like where you were going into it, and what
you loved, what you hated, what you found surprising.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I wanted to be pregnant for a very long time.
I had a combination of infertility and mautha right partner
for a very long time. And when I met my
partner almost right away, I was like, Okay, this is time.
I really wanted to be with him. I loved being pregnant.
I was pregnant during the pandemic. That made it very
(22:03):
very hard. No one of my friends and family even
saw me the entire time. I remained devastated. But pregnancy itself,
like it really changed and revealed a lot about the
way I lived with my own body, because once it
wasn't like just like an object of presentation of self,
(22:24):
and once it was like something that someone else needed.
I realized how differently I cared for it, and how
like even in you know, recovery from all the various
things that I've recovered from, like I still had treated
myself pretty brutally most of the time, so that was
not always comfortable, but like definitely good information. And then
it's just like it's so fucking wild. It's like something
(22:45):
is growing inside of you and weird stuff like you
get this line up your butt crack like when the
baby's about to come. Just like it's so strange. It's
like your body is a science experiment and some of
it is really rough and horrible, and some of it
is like miraculous, and it's like everyday a new thing.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
You know. Was it triggery for the ed or you
were just like, no, I'm a vessel, Like I'm gonna
go with it, like.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
A little bit like I remember when they were like, look,
I didn't gain enough weight, and they were kind of
like houndling me about that, and it was something about
that that felt good, and I was like that's not normal,
you know, but no, it felt like I was briefly
outside of like the system of standards for a human woman,
(23:35):
like I didn't have to do that anymore. That was
this other thing, you know, and then like some of
the changes I like like I got big breasts for
the first time in my life, and I was like, oh,
I like I didn't I didn't know I would like these.
I think afterwards is actually when it felt more like
that where I was like, oh, I'm just like a
just sloppy, used up sack of a person. Like I
(23:58):
didn't feel good because it wasn't I was no longer
like you know, in service to the baby. In the
same way, it was just like here I am with
like the detritus of what I used to be. Yeah,
so it makes.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Bad, okay, So that is the terrifying part for me.
Tell me about the identity shift if you felt anything
with that or if it was all just totally welcome
and the like body stuff.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
After I mean, I definitely didn't feel like I became
like a mom in like the way that on the
internet you're supposed to like. I was like, I just
still felt very messy and very self involved, and I
didn't have a life.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Moving so nice.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
I didn't want one, you know, but I do. I
definitely softened, like just emotionally, like I feel much more
affected by you know, when I witness suffering, it affects
me in a way that Nay never used to And like,
I don't but I don't think I could watch the
Phones again, you know. I think that was just set
(24:58):
and I used to be like just I could watch anything.
It never gave me a feeling, you know. And then afterwards,
I don't know, I had a pretty rough postpartum, so
I don't think this is necessarily standard, but it was
very difficult to move into the space of like being
a parent and then sort of recover, mostly because I
(25:20):
didn't have any time because I had to go back
to work immediately. My partner, I had to go back
to work immediately. I was like, you know, doing emails
with a laptop on my moveorn's head, which was not
my own personal failing. It's like a failing of this
fucking culture. And when I read about people in Europe
who get to take six months off and like bomb
up the baby, I'm like, oh, that would have been different.
(25:40):
For sure. We both have a small business and my
employer was not particularly humane, and that's how it went.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, yeah, oh my god.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
So for the podcast, we went to Finland, and it's
so different over there.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
It's like they give you a.
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Package of a crib and like everything you need, and
they have not just maternity leave, but paternity leave, you know,
Like the system so different and it's so designed with
the woman in mind.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
It made me really sad.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Yeah, really, I wish I could have had a different experience.
And then with a lot of the work for me,
it's just done letting go with that cause I didn't
I have It was like it was an unprecedented time.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah. Yeah, do you like being a parent?
Speaker 3 (26:31):
I do? Yeah. No, I'm super close with my kid
and I'm They're the best. It's no regrets. No, life
is very hard. Like that I can hold those things
and you know, each hand at the same time. And
I didn't have to change in a lot of the
ways that I had feared or been warned about, Like
(26:52):
I'm still myself and then like petty and irreverent and
all the things that I've always been. And she and
I just vibe, you know.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
Ah, I love that. Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Okay, oh, I'm going to leave it at that. So
this is for the writers in the house. But to
tell us how the book got published.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
I have a fantastic agent, and he sold it. That
process was like pretty much out of my hand, like well,
not out of my hands, but like he handled it.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Was it a full or was it a book proposal?
Speaker 3 (27:26):
No, it was a full I was not not like
I was not willing, but like I had the whole manuscript,
and the idea of owing somebody a book really stresses
me out, like I would rather Yeah. And also it's like,
I mean, I see the argument of like knowing how
much money you're going to get, but I don't I
keep my book money, Like I don't live on that money,
do you know what I mean? Which is partly a privilegion,
(27:47):
partly hustle, but I don't ever want to like be
making creative decisions based on like what I will get
paid for it, I guess. So he sold the full manuscript,
and then I had a great editor, and it took
really a long time. I did not know it would
take this long, and not for any reason. It was
just like everything takes a long time, every round of edit.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
How long.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I had watched track of time altogether? Like the book
came out in October twenty three, and I think I
sold it in my maybe like early twenty two. I
think that could be by like a year. I don't know,
but I had written it as my m a faithing system.
Then I had a lot of like editing to do
after that, so I did a lot of work on
(28:33):
my own before the sale, and then it was kind
of just like one step after the other. Once once
it was.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Sold, nice, well, congratulations, and what are you working on now?
Speaker 3 (28:46):
I am working on a book about milk that started
with the writing that I was trying to do when
my baby was new and I didn't really have any
time or any brain power, and I was just like
making little notes on my phone and then there's a
formula shortage. My child was best fed. But like once
you feed a baby, you become very assumed, so like
(29:08):
the fact that any baby anywhere might not have food.
And I was really interested also in these internet factions
of moms, of like the breastfeeding moms versus one, the
moms versus and it's just all it's just such a weird,
toxic ecosystem, and I'm being very interested in it. And
then I got interested in cows and trauma and the
ways that we would take babies away from moms to
(29:31):
have milk, and so that's.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yes, I was going to ask you about breastfeeding, and
then it sounds like I need to just have you
back when that book comes out.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Well, my child is like closing in on four years
old and still nurses, So that's who I am.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Really Yeah, yeah, my god.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
I thought I would be, but it's just I just
decided I wanted to let her choose when she's done,
and she hasn't been done yet.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
Well, I can't wait to read Milk. I loved Brutalities
And thank you so much for chatting with me today.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Thank you so much for having me on. It was
so fun to talk to you.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Ah, that was epic. Thank you again to Margo.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
You are a treat and I can't wait to have
you back to talk about milk. Oh my god, that
sounds right up my alle You just cannot wait to read.
And thank you for tuning into this episode of Private
Parts Unknown. Stay tuned right here because I have got
another sexy episode coming your way next week. For the
latest episodes, look down and make sure you're following us
(30:40):
on your favorite podcast player now. If you are listening
on Spotify, it's like a follow and like a bell
button on most platforms, it's like a follow or a subscribe,
and to stay in touch between episodes, follow me at
Courtney Cosak that is Kocak on Instagram and Twitter. And
follow the show at Private Parts Unknown on Instagram and
(31:03):
at Private Parts on on Twitter. And check out my
other podcasts for more of my audio creations. I have
The Bleeders about book writing and publishing and podcast Vestie,
which is a best friend to podcasters trying to grow
and monetize their shows. Shout out to Amy Rouch for
the bomb ass theme music. For more info about Amy
(31:24):
and her music, check out Amy Rousch dot com. That's
Amy r a sc dot com. This episode was mixed
by my beloved audio guy, Michael Castaneda of Plastic Audio.
Thank you so much for sticking with me until the end.
Until next time, stay curious and keep exploring.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Love you, privates.
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com