May 12, 2025 • 36 mins
Welcome, writers and book lovers. The Bleeders is a podcast about book writing and publishing. Make sure you subscribe to the companion Substack: https://thebleeders.substack.com/welcome
Today’s guest comes all the way from Africa! Ghanaian author Nana Darkoa Sekyiamah has such a cool story about how she used her blog as a launch pad for publishing her first book, The Sex Lives of African Women. Nana shares the whole process, including conducting the interviews, writing a book proposal, how she landed her agent, and more. Plus, her best tip for writers trying to get published and how listening back to her interviews and transcribing them actually helped her craft each narrative. Follow Nana on Instagram @dfordarkoa.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
Today’s guest comes all the way from Africa! Ghanaian author Nana Darkoa Sekyiamah has such a cool story about how she used her blog as a launch pad for publishing her first book, The Sex Lives of African Women. Nana shares the whole process, including conducting the interviews, writing a book proposal, how she landed her agent, and more. Plus, her best tip for writers trying to get published and how listening back to her interviews and transcribing them actually helped her craft each narrative. Follow Nana on Instagram @dfordarkoa.
The Bleeders is hosted by Courtney Kocak. Follow her on Instagram @courtneykocak and Bluesky @courtneykocak.bsky.social. For more, check out her website courtneykocak.com.
Courtney is teaching some upcoming workshops you might be interested in:
- The Multi-Passionate Writer's Life: https://writingworkshops.com/products/the-multi-passionate-writers-life-zoom-seminar-with-courtney-kocak
- How to Build a “Platform” for Writers Who Shudder at the Thought: https://writingworkshops.com/products/how-to-build-a-platform-for-writers-who-shudder-at-the-thought-zoom-seminar
- Creating Your Podcast: https://www.roadmapwriters.com/products/creating-your-podcast-0
- Podcasting for Writers: How to Start, Sustain & Grow Your Podcast: https://writingworkshops.com/products/podcasting-for-writers-how-to-start-sustain-grow-your-podcast-4-week-zoom-workshop
- Start a Newsletter to Supercharge Your Platform, Network and Business: https://writingworkshops.com/products/start-a-newsletter-to-supercharge-your-platform-network-business-zoom-seminar
- Land Big Bylines by Writing for Columns: https://writingworkshops.com/products/land-big-bylines-by-writing-for-columns-zoom-seminar
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
And some people also saw the call out and then
would share it with their friends or with people that
they thought would be really cool to interview, Like I
had a friend who introduced me to her neighbor because
her neighbor was a dominatrix. Some of the really cool
interviews were because people knew about the projects and they
were like, Oh, you have to speak to that person.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Today's guest comes all the way from Africa. Nadiquased German
has such a cool story about how she used her
blog as a launch pad to publishing her first book,
not just in the UK, but also in the US
as well.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
She talks all about the.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Interview process and also how listening back to her interviews
and transcribing them actually helped her craft each narrative.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Because sometimes UN transcribe and I would literally hear something
that I hadn't quite ahead when we had the conversation,
or I hadn't quite sunk in, so I could go
back and have a second conversation. I'd also transcribe, and
I would also hear once s assess was the most
interesting paths of the story, So that is one that
clatin of the story.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
It would come to me.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Nan now shares all about how she went from blog
to book, including writing a book proposal, how she landed
her agent, her best tips for writers trying to get published,
and more.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
In today's episode, There's nothing to writing. All you do
is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And bleed Welcome to the Leaders, a podcast and support
group about book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster
Courtney Kosak and each week I'll bring you new conversations
with authors, agents and publishers about how to write and
sell books.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
My name is Nanada Koschiama. I'm the author of the
Sex Lives of African Woman, also co founder of Adventures
from the Bedrooms of African Women blog podcast and live
festival about sex, sexualities and pleasure.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I got to know today's guest through my other podcast,
Private Parts Unknown, and on that show we had Nana
on and had a great conversation about the content of
her book. And today on The Bleeders, We're now going
to talk shop about the book writing and publishing logistics.
And also, I just want to say I love how
(02:31):
this conversation calls back to one of the big takeaways
from my interview with Bridge of Bianca. All writing is
valid yay, okay. I'm so excited for this conversation, and
especially since I got a little preview during Private Parts Unknown.
In that interview, we talked about like what the book was,
(02:51):
and now we're going to talk about how you did it,
how you made it happen. So I'm really pumped. But
first let's do the lightning round question. So when did
you first identify as a writer.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I think I began to feel confident enough to think
I could possibly call myself a writer one day in
twenty twelve, I had gone to a writing workshop run
by the Nigerian writer to Amanda Ngozi Adichi.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Hopefully some of your listeners would've heard of her.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Because she's actually quite famous, right and she wants to
writing workshop every year in Nigeria. And I went there
and I really felt a friend in that workshop. At
the time, i'd been blogging for three years about sex
and sexualities through my blog Adventures on the Bedrooms of
African Women. But I think there was a part of
me that just thought, Okay, that's not proper writing, that's
(03:42):
just nothing. That's just me, you know, like vomiting on
a virtual page.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Was it something about the topic that made it seem
not legit too.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yes, I think it was the topic. I think it
was a topic, and there was a part of me
that felt to be a legitimate writer, surely I have
to write about other things. So at some point in
time I expressed that hesitation, and to my mind was like, no,
your writing is very important. It needs to be out
in the world. And the publisher of Fina, which is
the local publisher in Nigeria, also said exactly the same thing,
(04:14):
and he was like a conservative older man. So I
was just like, Okay, if these two people are telling
me that what I'm writing is valid, then really is valid.
I guess sometimes you just get the affirmation that you
need to hear, right, uh huh. And I think that
was when I thought, Okay, I can start to think
of myself as a writer.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I love that ten year journey. Okay, we're going to
cover that in a second, but first, what's your all
time favorite book?
Speaker 1 (04:41):
M I have to say, gosh, it's had But I
have to say a book that really just came into
my life at the right time was All God's Children
Need Traveling Shoes by my Angelo.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So it's one of the one of the books on
her to biography. My Angelo was I think, super super
smart and like just dividing their autobiography into several books
and all those children need traveling shoes. Was like it
wasn't the first maybe not even the second. I think
it was like the third, right. And the time that
I read that book, I was living in the UK
(05:17):
and I went to a book shop that no longer
exists called Borders, went right to the end of the
book shop, which is where they tended to put their
black books, and I was just sort of looking at
the covers and I saw this book and like, the
title really just struck me.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
So I picked it.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Up, started leaving through, and I realized that my Angelo
had actually spent some time living in Ghana, oh you know,
and I was a Gania living in the UK, and
I was just like, oh my gosh, I have to
read this book. I read it, I laughed it, I
went back and just started reading her autobiography in order.
And her work for me is really transformational. That book
was transformational because this book about the importance of a
(05:53):
woman being able to move in the world, being able
to travel, you know. She described scenes like going to
bar like drinking cocktails given the baton there big fat tips,
and that really.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Stayed with me.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
That's always been my dream, and I didn't think I've
ever done it, but to go like dressed up to
the nines, go sit in a bar, have a really
fancy cocktail, and like tip the button that really really
heavily so he keeps the drinks coming.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
You know, I think I was a kind of badass woman.
My actually who us? And the kind of badass woman
I want to be amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I actually haven't read that one of hers, so I
need to go look at that. I highly recommend what's
your dream writing routine?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Like, if money was no object, if time was no object,
what would be your dream routine?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Okay, So first of all, I'll be in a house
that I own on the beach, right but it's going
to be the house is going to be set up
about let's say, like it'll take you like two minutes
to walk to the beach. I don't want to be
right on the beach because you know, like the waves
can destroy the house. It's going to be a two
story house, okay, and my writing room will be on
(07:05):
the top floor facing a huge window. And for my window,
I can see the horizon and then I'll occasionally see
fashion boats come and pass. And the room will be
like cream painted cream, quite simple, quite stark. On one
side will be a white board, and another side will
be like a cockboard, right, the kind of board that
(07:26):
you can post a pencil. And the white board will
be just for like writing and scribbling ideas. And the
olyven that will be in the room will be at desk,
a chair, a laptop which only has like it doesn't
have emails, it doesn't have anything, right, somehow, it's because
I like to write and Google docs. It's like Google
Docs without the email attached.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You're speaking my language all this. I'm like, yes, I'll
have the house next door.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yes, that's my dream rights and routine.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Okay, so what is it look like in real life?
What's your real writing routine?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Why do you want to bring me back to reality?
I still want to stay in the TI, I know.
So the reality looks like setting my lamp for five
fifteen am and then around five thirty five forty five,
sitting up in bed to write for like an hour
and a half before like I go for a walk
and start my day and it's not a bad routine.
(08:25):
I have to say, I quite like that one too.
I would just prefer the house on the beach.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, so I didn't realize you're a mom, right I am. Yes, Yeah, yeah,
thirty year old with a two year old.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I imagine, like you do have to steal that time,
you know what I mean? That time in the morning
that's like precious and just yours. Does it feel like that,
you know?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Like I've had to like really work around this because
the thing is my two year old. I had to
literally give up on sleeping with her most of the
time because she refuses to sleep on her own. So
that was actually my writing before she came into my life.
So I have a living nanny and when they live
in Nanni's around you know, my two year old's room
is next door to my nanny's for a reason, Like
(09:09):
I give up on my office so she could have
a so she could have a room of her own,
so that I can start to clear back some of
my time. Yeah, but when I sleep with my two
years old, I cannot wake up and write because the
minute you get out of bed, she wake up as well.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
So you kind of have to just lie by her.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, greedy children.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I know.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
One piece of writing that makes you jealous. You didn't
write it.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Every single thing at which Danticat has ever written just
makes me jealous.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
See then one more time, I missed that.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
At which Danticut she's a Haitian American writer.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, I don't know her.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, she writes both fiction and nonfiction. You have to
look her up.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I mean, she's She's also written an incredible book for
I think all writers and creatives called creates dangerously. But
just in general, her fiction is powerful and nonfiction is powerful,
and she writes very much about social issues as well
in terms of her fiction. And but it's so a
massive it just drauss you. And it also gives you
context to some of the you know, some of the
(10:14):
geopolitical issues in places like Haiti in the Dominican Republic.
She's just an incredible, incredible writer.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Oh that's a good wreck. Okay, So now let's dig
in to the book and the blog.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So you identified as a writer back in twenty twelve,
and from my understanding, it kind of started with the blog.
So tell us about your jumping off point, like how
the blog got started and how that brought you to
the point where you were like, Okay, it's book time.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So the blog really came out of a beach holiday.
I'm clearly obsessed with beaches. Right just ahead of my
thirtieth birthday, I went to a beach holiday with a
group of other women, other African women, and we spent
a lot of time, like you do, sitting around drinking
cocktail after cocktail, and you know, the conversation would tend
(11:14):
to sex. But then it felt to me like this
conversation was really different. It felt to me like people
could be really open and nice, manjugmental. People were talking
about their desires fantasies, and some of those women were
women I had met for the for the first time.
So I came from the holiday thinking like, why has
it taken me so long to feel like I can
(11:34):
have this kind of community that has this really positive
attitude about sex. And you know, I felt inspired that
I wanted to start a blog about sex. So I
rang up one of my very good friends, Malika Grant.
She lived in the States at the time, and I
said to her, you know what, I wanted to start
a blog about sex. She coincidentally had been interviewing her
(11:54):
own grandmother about her sex life, and so she was
thinking of writing a book, you know, called Adventures from
the Bedrooms of African Women. And I said to her,
let's do a blog and later on we can turn
it into a book, and that's what we did. Like,
she also wrote two series that she started on the
blog that became books. So we both have innocence of
books that have been inspired by some of the some
(12:17):
of the writing we've been doing on the blog. So
around twenty fourteen, I thought, there's so many interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Stories on the blog.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
But these are stories and never see anywhere else, you know,
I actually want to just reach out to many African
afric descendant and Black women across the world and ask
them about the experiences of sex and sexuality and turn
that into a book, which is how The Sex Lives
of African Women came into being.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I guess first, let's before we go any further, just
give a quick premise of the book.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
How many people you interviewed, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So, the book The Sex Lives of African Women is
basically a non fiction book about African women's experiences in
regards to like sex, sexualities, and pleasure. And what I
did was interviewed women from all across the world in
the continental right, so like Nigeria. So I told me
(13:15):
the United Kingdom, the United States, bade us, and then
I retold everybody's store in the first person because I
really wanted people to connect with those stories. The book
was divided into three broad sections, self Discovery, Freedom and healing.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
And there's about like thirty stories in there.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yes, yes, so thirty one or thirty two included myself,
my own stories included in there.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Okay, So I love the book.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
And then I was looking on your blog and I
saw what was maybe the first call for interviews, so
I would love to know.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, how that started.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
And it was like, you know, I have one hundred
questions about the sex lives of African women and I
hope you can help answer them. So tell us a
little bit about how you cast these people.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Oh, you really did your research. You're the very first
person actually interviewed me and has done that. So that's incredible. Yes,
So I basically did a call out on the blog
right saying I want to do this book and I
want to interview people about the experiences of sex.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
I think I said it was for a book. You know,
like who wants to be interviewed?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And I had I remember the first time I did,
I had a ton of people respond and I just
wasn't ready, you know, So actually I feel like there's
a whole bunch of people I probably never responded to.
But then I actually started to interview people. The very
first person I interviewed was somebody who randomly slid into
my DM on Twitter because they were confused about their
(14:44):
own sexuality.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
So I found myself, you know, kind.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Of like, you know, trying to reassure them, like sexualities
on the spectrum of men. You know, if you attracted
to women, it doesn't necessarily mean that your lesbian. No,
you're by like you can take time to figure out
who you are and maybe maybe need to figure out who.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
You are, right. And then eventually I was like, I'm
right in a book about sex. Can I interview you?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And she said yes, So she came over to my
house and the first time we just sort of drank
some wine and just chatted, and then the second time
we drank some more wine, and then.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
I actually did an interview.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And then we had a third interview where you know,
like we went a bit deeper into the conversation, and
then what I would do then was as I traveled,
and I used to travel a lot pre pandemic for
my job, everywhere I went, I'll try and just find
somebody to interview, you know. So I went to Costa
Rica and I was like, oh my gosh, there are
black people in Costa Rica.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
I need to interview someone here, you know. So that
was basically my process.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
And some people also saw the call out and then
would share it with their friends or with people that
they thought would be really cool to interview. Like I
had a friend who introduced me to her neighbor because
her neighbor was a dominatrix. So some of the really
cool interviews were because people knew about the product and
they're like, oh, you have to speak to that person.
And some people just like inboxed me on Facebook. One
(16:05):
of my favorite stories in the book is a story
by Helen Banda. She just emboxed me on Facebook. And
I didn't see it for three months because I never
go on Facebook. People don't message me on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
See it, don't send that, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So I kind of saw three months later and I
was like, oh my gosh, like you and Napoleon was married,
and I.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Want to interview you.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
So then I was frantically trying to call her on
Facebook Messenger, later sent her a message. She responded, we
had a conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, you had such interesting identities and perspectives that you
cover in the book.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
So I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Was there anybody that you're like, Okay, you're too vanilla,
or were you able to kind of like find a
story out of everyone.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I found the story out of almost everybody. There was
just one person whose story I didn't include, and that
was because there wasn't a lot of sex in the
conversation we had, right and in a fenness, at any
other point in time in my process, I would have
gone back and had a second interview with her, because
when I said to her, I'm sorry, I've thought about it,
(17:10):
I can't really include it. There wasn't a lot of sex,
she was like, oh, we can have another conversation, And
at any other point in time i'd've said yes. But
I was really close to deadline, and I was at
that stage where I was pretty much done with my
own book, right I was ready to send it to
the publisher. I never see it again, you know, So
that was literally the only story I didn't include, And
(17:31):
for me, that really speaks to the fact that I
feel like almost everybody has an interesting story when it
comes to sex. Like it's such a fascinating subject. I
could never get tired of writing about it. And I
feel like even vanilla sex lifes are super interesting, right
like A, I don't think you need to have this wild,
swinging off the ceiling kind of sex life to be
(17:52):
in a book about sex. Like I interviewed people who
were cealibrated, for instance, at the premise or at the
top of it, Tam, I think, oh, there was a
much But then it's really interesting to hear why somebody's
chosen to be celibate, what that's doing for them, how
that's part of their healin. You know what sex looks
like for someone who is celibates. Are they masturbating? Are
they not masturbating? All of these things. It's an endlessly
(18:16):
fascinating subjects.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So when you went to do the interviews, were you like, Okay,
I'm asking everyone all these same questions, or were you like, Okay,
I know this person's a dominatrix. I want to figure
out everything about their life as a dominatrix.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Were they more tailored?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
It was definitely tailored. Yes, So when I first started,
I didn't have a mixture of things. That sort of
consistent question I'd always ask people was how they identified
in terms of the agenda, and how they identified in
terms of their sexual orientation, and how old they were right,
those kind of three questions were super important to me
to have some consistency across because initially I was really
(18:56):
interested in can I see these sort of patterns and
trends and that kind of stuff. And when I first started,
I also used to ask people what's your earliest sexual memory?
And I stopped asking that question because I was triggering
people to tell me a lot about the experience of
child's sexual abuse, you know. And it took me a
while to realize, Oh, this is the question that's making
(19:17):
everybody go there, which is not necessarily a bad thing,
but it's also not really something that I wanted to
hear all of the time. And I didn't necessarily want
to trigger it unless somebody wanted.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
To speak about It's right, that makes.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
A lot of sense. Did you do a book proposal
for this?
Speaker 4 (19:42):
I did, Yes, I did a book proposal.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Tell me about that stage.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
What was that like and how far along in the
process were you and did things really change after that
or was it pretty close.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I did the book proposal when I really wanted to
look for an agent, and because I'm a nonfiction writer,
I knew that the Keithyne would be the book proposal.
The Keithen would also be able to point to the
fact that I am the person who is an authority
on this subject and can write this type of book.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Well, I'd been asking, like some of my writer.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Friends if the new agents who might be interested in
my work, and one of my writer friends actually connected
me to the person who eventually became my agent. So
that's also my biggest tip for people who want to
be published, like make writer friends, you know, I think
it it really helps because they're already in the industry,
they've already been published. They may be willing to introduce
(20:35):
you to their own agent, or they may have other
agents who like come into their pair view. So this
writer friend, actually I can mention his name. His name
is Suliman ad and I he runs a literary festival
called the Asthmaara Addists Literature Festival and Excel, which takes
place every year in Brussels, and my agents had been
to that festival and he knew I was looking for representation.
(20:57):
So afterwards he just wrote to me and was like, oh,
you know this agent was at my festival.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Would you like me to introduce you.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I said yes, I sent it my proposal, and then
literally three days later he responded saying I've read it,
I love it. I think I can sell it. Can
we speak yay? Yes, And that's how I.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Got my agent.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
And had you already started interviewing when you did the
proposal or was it something you were going to do
in the future.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I had already interviewed at the time about ten or
eleven people, and I'd actually written ten or eleven chapters already,
so I also was able to give details of the
ten slash eleven people had already interviewed, and I also
spoke then about the other interviews and the other types
of people I wanted to include in the book.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So I was already very clear about the format in
the sense the breadth of stories that I wanted to tell.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Nice Okay, so we'll come back to your agent selling
the book in last Did he do it right away
or no?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Oh, yes, once we actually signed. Within three weeks he
had sold the book, what two to three weeks? Yes,
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Okay, what was that process?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:13):
It was interesting, Like I was surprised that kind of
happened so quickly, you know. Yeah, I was surprised it
happened so quickly. And so when he finally came back
to me with an author, you know, one of the
things he said to me in the UK published by
Dialogue Books, which is part of Little Brown UK, and
he was one of the things he said to me
(22:34):
it is a publisher is called Chamaine, and he was like,
Chamaine works really hard for her authors. That really stayed
in my head, right, And I have found it to
be true because I have friends who have been published
by you know, like the Big Five, and they make
really big advances, but to be honest, their books get
published and no one ever hears about it. And I
feel like my publishing houses worked really hard to make
(22:54):
sure that my books are on bookshelves around the world.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Okay, So going back to the process of writing the book.
After you had done the interview, what was the process
of turning them into a story? How much did you
editorialize and kind of like add your own voice to it.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
So for me, because it's a nonfiction book, it was
really really important to be telling a true story, right,
So my process was quite intense of interview people and
then I would transcribe. So initially I was transcribing like
literally if I read myself, and then I was like,
there's a ticking forever, and so I start to transcribe
(23:33):
with the robots. But then I was still lessen and
correct every single mistake, and it was like the most
frustrating process.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I was really helpful. It was also really helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Because then I would really hear the story because sometimes
in transcribe and I would literally hear something that I
hadn't quiet head when we had the conversation, or I
hadn't quite sank in, so I could go back and
like have a second conversation and also transcript, I would
also hear what, in a sense was the most interesting
part of the story. So that is one the crafting
(24:05):
of the story would come to me. So everything is true,
it's just that I arranged it in an interesting way,
and you know, the thoughts of like Okay, how am
I going to staff this, and how do I want
to tell the story and do I want to go
back and forth?
Speaker 4 (24:19):
You know?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So I guess I would say I applied creative techniques
to how I told you the story, but everything was
was what was told.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
It was completely nonfiction.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Did you go back to them and say this is
what I wrote?
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Like?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Is this no? You know? No?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Okay, that's s Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
I didn't want to do that. No.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I didn't want to do that for a couple of reasons.
I think you can tell someone your story and not
necessarily realize how you come across, and you may not
come across always in the best light, and that's okay,
because that's also part of I think the truth. And
I didn't want people to like try and present themselves
like an anangelic fashion right, right, And I wanted to
(25:02):
show things as they were. So, just to give an example,
there was one particular story where one of the women
really was I would say complacit in sexual assault, but
that's definitely not how she saw it, right, or that's
that's not definitely how she would have seen it. So
part of what I did before the book came out
was to say to her, you know, that's actually happened.
(25:24):
That's actually sexual assault. You know, So I wanted to
prepare Hair for that reaction. But I wouldn't have once
hard hair to have had the chance to edit that out.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Of the story. Has that the sense? Yeah, totally? Was
she shocked?
Speaker 4 (25:40):
Yeah, she hadn't seen it that way, you know, she
hadn't seen it that way?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah? Interesting, okay, who So did they have to sign
off on anything or not? They were just like, I
agreed to do this interview and that was that.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yes, And what I'll do is most of my In fact,
all the interviews were recorded, so I would ask people,
you know, I'll say to them, this is what the
book is about. As a manfiction book, you can choose
to be anonymous or not anonymous, you know, all of
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
You had a record of it, yeah, yes, okay, So
you kind of wrote the stories as you were interviewing
these people. And how long did that whole process take?
And then how did you decide the framing of the
three sections and like the construction of the book.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So the whole process took five years, from twenty fifteen
to twenty twenty. It also took five years because I
was very much doing it on the side, right, Well,
I had a full time job and I had many
many side hassles, a bit like you caught me. Yeah,
so it took five years just because of that process,
(26:56):
not because it needed to take five years and attempts
on of how I ordered the stories. That was actually
a UK version of there's a US version.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Both versions are different, so that's also something that's interesting.
Even the stories in each section are different. Yeah, fascinating,
It is really interesting.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Was that requested or how did it? How did you
guys decide?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I mean, I feel like to such an extent, books
are also put together with the support slash advice slash
encouragement of editors, you know. So the very first order
that I did, my editor had some particular feedback and
that actually in the UK, and that actually made me
change the arrangement of the book. So in the very
(27:43):
first draft that I myself put together, I actually started
the book off with the freedom section, and when I
got her feedback, I was like, I don't want to
change the people I have in the freedom section because
for me, these are the people that signify freedom. But
what I'll do is I'll move that entire section to
the middle addressed, you know, the sort of queries that
she had, and then with my US editor it was
(28:05):
a completely different process. So I think obviously what you
would have seen as the US version with the UK version.
So with the US version, my story is kind of threaded.
It's a bit threaded all the way through, right, because
you have these sort of slightly longer vignettes, you know,
each woman I'm about to interview, right, and the UK
(28:26):
version is a very short blend about each woman. Oh yes,
So again that's different, right. My US editor wanted a
bit more of my own story, wanted to know why
I chose to interview the woman, how did it like
change me, shape me? And so that was the way
in which I made those like like I added that
(28:46):
extra detail that she was really interested in here, and
she felt a US audience to be interested in here,
and you know what.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
She's right, Like I did like those vignettes and like
understanding kind of where you were coming from a little bit.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yes, yes, yeah, so that was interesting and like sa
same thing. She was like why is this person in
this section? Why's that person in that section?
Speaker 4 (29:09):
And we had some back and.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Forth, you know, and I made some changes as well,
in terms of the order in which people's stories appeared
in the US version. Yeah, so I actually want to
get from people who have read good to see what
they prefer.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Oh, how interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Okay, So then you finally finish and you had these
like one draft or one pass with each editor.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Was that kind of how it went?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, so it was a different process.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
So the UK version sold way before the US version did, right,
And what I'm trying to remember, I think I think
the US was sold after the UK book was out.
Oh yes, So it's it's like I finished the book,
it was published in the UK, then my agent sold
(29:58):
us in the US, and then I reworked the book
for US audience.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Interesting, So did you have two kind of two book
tours and it looked like you had a massive tour situation.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
But what was it like on your end?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
It feels like it's been one long, continuous book tour.
Who just never ended. I can't complain. I've been lucky.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, and I actually got really good publicity for my book, yes,
because it was like promoting the UK edition for a
really long time, and then the US one came out
and then we did a virtual book tour and now
I'm kind of promoted both all of the.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Time, and you got a lot of attention like, what
were the kind of the coolest things that you have
done during the tour?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Oh gosh, so many cool things so recently, well, not
recently anymore. It was in April I was in Kenya
for a festival. I've been invited to headline a new
festival there and the New York Times correspondence, who is
based in Kenya, Abdi Upd, He reached out to me
because they had read the book, loved it and wanted
to interview me. And so I got this really really
(31:06):
cool spread in the New York Times, you know, and
made it to the print version. I was the cover
story in the book section, and that for me, has
been a huge highlight. That was a huge highlight when
the book came out in the UK as well. One
of the most popular newspapers in the UK is The
Guardian and they also have a book magazine. I was
(31:27):
the cover of the book magazine, and they also had
a piece that one of the journalists had done on me.
And then they also had Margaret Busby, who was basically
credited as being the first black publisher in the UK.
She also did a review of the book, and it
was like those three things came out at the same time.
And then they'd also sent a photographer to Ganna to
(31:48):
do a photoshoot of me.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
I looked godgeous.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yes, there was a shop in the UK, Waterstones, that
devoted an antar window to my book. So I have
had lots of highlights. Yes, I'll say the Guard didn't coverage,
The New York Times coverage the Waterstone's window, a CNN
interview I did recently with Christina Mampor those are all highlights.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yes, incredible.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
What's next? The books out? Are you already thinking about
the next thing? Have you started anything? Are you kind
of just brainstorming?
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yes, I have the next thing that I really need
to start working on because I recently signed another deal
with my UK publisher for my second book, congrat So yes,
I'm not feeling the deadline pressure yet, but I do
need to start pretty soon.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
And yes, is there anything you can share about what
that one's about?
Speaker 1 (32:57):
I can say it's also still going to be about sex.
I'm describing it as part memoir, part African feminists, social commentary.
Oh with a heavy dose of inspiration.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Love it.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Okay, do you have any bucket list writing goals?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yes, I want to write a historical fiction novel, such
in pre colonial Africa.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Interesting. Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
What is one piece of writing advice you wish you
could give your former self?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Maybe just to have more confidence than myself and just
to trust that I am a writer and that I
just need to persevere and work at it and that
my dreams will come true.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yes, what's wanted for writers trying to get a book published?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Make writer friends just really, you know, I mean, I
think communities everything right, Just make writer friends and be
happy for them when they do well, and support them
because your own time will come.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I love that, And I also seemed to me like
your blog offered this kind of like wonderful I don't know,
community for you to share your book just from the
get you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Absolutely, absolutely, yes, completely agree.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I think communities are within, whether that's digital, in person
or ideally a mix of both.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
What's your all time favorite piece of your own writing.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Apart from the sex Lives of African Woman that's definitely
my favorite piece of writs and for now, yes, my
own book.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
And how can listeners connect with you on the internet.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
So my happy place is Instagram. My handle the is
d for d f O R d A L k
o A.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
On Twitter, I'm naszoo and nine and nas let the Weapon,
nas zero zoo and nine other n yes.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And then obviously people should check out the blog, which
is super active.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
We always have lots of interesting content and that's adventures
from the Bedrooms of African Women and the URLs adventures
from dot com.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Yes, okay, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
This has been so interesting and I feel like it's
such a nice b side to our private parts unknown conversation.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Absolutely people need to check out that's as well. Thank
you so much, Cockney, thank.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You for joining me for this episode of The bleedersh
writing is so much better with friends. I'm your host,
Courtney Cosack, and hey, let's connect on social media. I
am at Courtney Kosak, last name is Kocak on.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Twitter and Instagram.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And make sure you're signed up for the Bleeders Companion
substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives. There's so much
good stuff that I send out to my free list,
and I actually just launched a paid subscription with some
extra goodies where I take you behind the scenes of
all my best bylines. I published a post about my
return to stand up comedy and how I got ready
to crush my showcase.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
I wrote about MFAs and whether or not I think
it is worth it. I also did one of my
favorite workshops I've ever taught.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
It's a manifestation workshop that I did for the New Year,
but it's really good anytime of the year.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
So there's so much good stuff for free subscribers and even.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
More for paid subscribers, And there is a link in
the description for that and join me again next time
for another all new episode.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
And some people also saw the call out and then
would share it with their friends or with people that
they thought would be really cool to interview, Like I
had a friend who introduced me to her neighbor because
her neighbor was a dominatrix. Some of the really cool
interviews were because people knew about the projects and they
were like, Oh, you have to speak to that person.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Today's guest comes all the way from Africa. Nadiquased German
has such a cool story about how she used her
blog as a launch pad to publishing her first book,
not just in the UK, but also in the US
as well.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
She talks all about the.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Interview process and also how listening back to her interviews
and transcribing them actually helped her craft each narrative.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Because sometimes UN transcribe and I would literally hear something
that I hadn't quite ahead when we had the conversation,
or I hadn't quite sunk in, so I could go
back and have a second conversation. I'd also transcribe, and
I would also hear once s assess was the most
interesting paths of the story, So that is one that
clatin of the story.
Speaker 4 (01:06):
It would come to me.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Nan now shares all about how she went from blog
to book, including writing a book proposal, how she landed
her agent, her best tips for writers trying to get published,
and more.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
In today's episode, There's nothing to writing. All you do
is sit down at a typewriter.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
And bleed Welcome to the Leaders, a podcast and support
group about book writing and publishing. I'm writer and podcaster
Courtney Kosak and each week I'll bring you new conversations
with authors, agents and publishers about how to write and
sell books.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
My name is Nanada Koschiama. I'm the author of the
Sex Lives of African Woman, also co founder of Adventures
from the Bedrooms of African Women blog podcast and live
festival about sex, sexualities and pleasure.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
I got to know today's guest through my other podcast,
Private Parts Unknown, and on that show we had Nana
on and had a great conversation about the content of
her book. And today on The Bleeders, We're now going
to talk shop about the book writing and publishing logistics.
And also, I just want to say I love how
(02:31):
this conversation calls back to one of the big takeaways
from my interview with Bridge of Bianca. All writing is
valid yay, okay. I'm so excited for this conversation, and
especially since I got a little preview during Private Parts Unknown.
In that interview, we talked about like what the book was,
(02:51):
and now we're going to talk about how you did it,
how you made it happen. So I'm really pumped. But
first let's do the lightning round question. So when did
you first identify as a writer.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I think I began to feel confident enough to think
I could possibly call myself a writer one day in
twenty twelve, I had gone to a writing workshop run
by the Nigerian writer to Amanda Ngozi Adichi.
Speaker 4 (03:19):
Hopefully some of your listeners would've heard of her.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Because she's actually quite famous, right and she wants to
writing workshop every year in Nigeria. And I went there
and I really felt a friend in that workshop. At
the time, i'd been blogging for three years about sex
and sexualities through my blog Adventures on the Bedrooms of
African Women. But I think there was a part of
me that just thought, Okay, that's not proper writing, that's
(03:42):
just nothing. That's just me, you know, like vomiting on
a virtual page.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Was it something about the topic that made it seem
not legit too.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yes, I think it was the topic. I think it
was a topic, and there was a part of me
that felt to be a legitimate writer, surely I have
to write about other things. So at some point in
time I expressed that hesitation, and to my mind was like, no,
your writing is very important. It needs to be out
in the world. And the publisher of Fina, which is
the local publisher in Nigeria, also said exactly the same thing,
(04:14):
and he was like a conservative older man. So I
was just like, Okay, if these two people are telling
me that what I'm writing is valid, then really is valid.
I guess sometimes you just get the affirmation that you
need to hear, right, uh huh. And I think that
was when I thought, Okay, I can start to think
of myself as a writer.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
I love that ten year journey. Okay, we're going to
cover that in a second, but first, what's your all
time favorite book?
Speaker 1 (04:41):
M I have to say, gosh, it's had But I
have to say a book that really just came into
my life at the right time was All God's Children
Need Traveling Shoes by my Angelo.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
So it's one of the one of the books on
her to biography. My Angelo was I think, super super
smart and like just dividing their autobiography into several books
and all those children need traveling shoes. Was like it
wasn't the first maybe not even the second. I think
it was like the third, right. And the time that
I read that book, I was living in the UK
(05:17):
and I went to a book shop that no longer
exists called Borders, went right to the end of the
book shop, which is where they tended to put their
black books, and I was just sort of looking at
the covers and I saw this book and like, the
title really just struck me.
Speaker 4 (05:31):
So I picked it.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Up, started leaving through, and I realized that my Angelo
had actually spent some time living in Ghana, oh you know,
and I was a Gania living in the UK, and
I was just like, oh my gosh, I have to
read this book. I read it, I laughed it, I
went back and just started reading her autobiography in order.
And her work for me is really transformational. That book
was transformational because this book about the importance of a
(05:53):
woman being able to move in the world, being able
to travel, you know. She described scenes like going to
bar like drinking cocktails given the baton there big fat tips,
and that really.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Stayed with me.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
That's always been my dream, and I didn't think I've
ever done it, but to go like dressed up to
the nines, go sit in a bar, have a really
fancy cocktail, and like tip the button that really really
heavily so he keeps the drinks coming.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
You know, I think I was a kind of badass woman.
My actually who us? And the kind of badass woman
I want to be amazing.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
I actually haven't read that one of hers, so I
need to go look at that. I highly recommend what's
your dream writing routine?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Like, if money was no object, if time was no object,
what would be your dream routine?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Okay, So first of all, I'll be in a house
that I own on the beach, right but it's going
to be the house is going to be set up
about let's say, like it'll take you like two minutes
to walk to the beach. I don't want to be
right on the beach because you know, like the waves
can destroy the house. It's going to be a two
story house, okay, and my writing room will be on
(07:05):
the top floor facing a huge window. And for my window,
I can see the horizon and then I'll occasionally see
fashion boats come and pass. And the room will be
like cream painted cream, quite simple, quite stark. On one
side will be a white board, and another side will
be like a cockboard, right, the kind of board that
(07:26):
you can post a pencil. And the white board will
be just for like writing and scribbling ideas. And the
olyven that will be in the room will be at desk,
a chair, a laptop which only has like it doesn't
have emails, it doesn't have anything, right, somehow, it's because
I like to write and Google docs. It's like Google
Docs without the email attached.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
You're speaking my language all this. I'm like, yes, I'll
have the house next door.
Speaker 4 (07:54):
Yes, that's my dream rights and routine.
Speaker 3 (07:58):
Okay, so what is it look like in real life?
What's your real writing routine?
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Why do you want to bring me back to reality?
I still want to stay in the TI, I know.
So the reality looks like setting my lamp for five
fifteen am and then around five thirty five forty five,
sitting up in bed to write for like an hour
and a half before like I go for a walk
and start my day and it's not a bad routine.
(08:25):
I have to say, I quite like that one too.
I would just prefer the house on the beach.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, so I didn't realize you're a mom, right I am. Yes, Yeah, yeah,
thirty year old with a two year old.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I imagine, like you do have to steal that time,
you know what I mean? That time in the morning
that's like precious and just yours. Does it feel like that,
you know?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Like I've had to like really work around this because
the thing is my two year old. I had to
literally give up on sleeping with her most of the
time because she refuses to sleep on her own. So
that was actually my writing before she came into my life.
So I have a living nanny and when they live
in Nanni's around you know, my two year old's room
is next door to my nanny's for a reason, Like
(09:09):
I give up on my office so she could have
a so she could have a room of her own,
so that I can start to clear back some of
my time. Yeah, but when I sleep with my two
years old, I cannot wake up and write because the
minute you get out of bed, she wake up as well.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
So you kind of have to just lie by her.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Yeah, greedy children.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I know.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
One piece of writing that makes you jealous. You didn't
write it.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
Every single thing at which Danticat has ever written just
makes me jealous.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
See then one more time, I missed that.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
At which Danticut she's a Haitian American writer.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Oh, I don't know her.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
Yeah, she writes both fiction and nonfiction. You have to
look her up.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
I mean, she's She's also written an incredible book for
I think all writers and creatives called creates dangerously. But
just in general, her fiction is powerful and nonfiction is powerful,
and she writes very much about social issues as well
in terms of her fiction. And but it's so a
massive it just drauss you. And it also gives you
context to some of the you know, some of the
(10:14):
geopolitical issues in places like Haiti in the Dominican Republic.
She's just an incredible, incredible writer.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Oh that's a good wreck. Okay, So now let's dig
in to the book and the blog.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
So you identified as a writer back in twenty twelve,
and from my understanding, it kind of started with the blog.
So tell us about your jumping off point, like how
the blog got started and how that brought you to
the point where you were like, Okay, it's book time.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
So the blog really came out of a beach holiday.
I'm clearly obsessed with beaches. Right just ahead of my
thirtieth birthday, I went to a beach holiday with a
group of other women, other African women, and we spent
a lot of time, like you do, sitting around drinking
cocktail after cocktail, and you know, the conversation would tend
(11:14):
to sex. But then it felt to me like this
conversation was really different. It felt to me like people
could be really open and nice, manjugmental. People were talking
about their desires fantasies, and some of those women were
women I had met for the for the first time.
So I came from the holiday thinking like, why has
it taken me so long to feel like I can
(11:34):
have this kind of community that has this really positive
attitude about sex. And you know, I felt inspired that
I wanted to start a blog about sex. So I
rang up one of my very good friends, Malika Grant.
She lived in the States at the time, and I
said to her, you know what, I wanted to start
a blog about sex. She coincidentally had been interviewing her
(11:54):
own grandmother about her sex life, and so she was
thinking of writing a book, you know, called Adventures from
the Bedrooms of African Women. And I said to her,
let's do a blog and later on we can turn
it into a book, and that's what we did. Like,
she also wrote two series that she started on the
blog that became books. So we both have innocence of
books that have been inspired by some of the some
(12:17):
of the writing we've been doing on the blog. So
around twenty fourteen, I thought, there's so many interesting.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
Stories on the blog.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
But these are stories and never see anywhere else, you know,
I actually want to just reach out to many African
afric descendant and Black women across the world and ask
them about the experiences of sex and sexuality and turn
that into a book, which is how The Sex Lives
of African Women came into being.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
I guess first, let's before we go any further, just
give a quick premise of the book.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
How many people you interviewed, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
So, the book The Sex Lives of African Women is
basically a non fiction book about African women's experiences in
regards to like sex, sexualities, and pleasure. And what I
did was interviewed women from all across the world in
the continental right, so like Nigeria. So I told me
(13:15):
the United Kingdom, the United States, bade us, and then
I retold everybody's store in the first person because I
really wanted people to connect with those stories. The book
was divided into three broad sections, self Discovery, Freedom and healing.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
And there's about like thirty stories in there.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Yes, yes, so thirty one or thirty two included myself,
my own stories included in there.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Okay, So I love the book.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
And then I was looking on your blog and I
saw what was maybe the first call for interviews, so
I would love to know.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, how that started.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
And it was like, you know, I have one hundred
questions about the sex lives of African women and I
hope you can help answer them. So tell us a
little bit about how you cast these people.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Oh, you really did your research. You're the very first
person actually interviewed me and has done that. So that's incredible. Yes,
So I basically did a call out on the blog
right saying I want to do this book and I
want to interview people about the experiences of sex.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
I think I said it was for a book. You know,
like who wants to be interviewed?
Speaker 1 (14:24):
And I had I remember the first time I did,
I had a ton of people respond and I just
wasn't ready, you know, So actually I feel like there's
a whole bunch of people I probably never responded to.
But then I actually started to interview people. The very
first person I interviewed was somebody who randomly slid into
my DM on Twitter because they were confused about their
(14:44):
own sexuality.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
So I found myself, you know, kind.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Of like, you know, trying to reassure them, like sexualities
on the spectrum of men. You know, if you attracted
to women, it doesn't necessarily mean that your lesbian. No,
you're by like you can take time to figure out
who you are and maybe maybe need to figure out who.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
You are, right. And then eventually I was like, I'm
right in a book about sex. Can I interview you?
Speaker 1 (15:08):
And she said yes, So she came over to my
house and the first time we just sort of drank
some wine and just chatted, and then the second time
we drank some more wine, and then.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
I actually did an interview.
Speaker 1 (15:19):
And then we had a third interview where you know,
like we went a bit deeper into the conversation, and
then what I would do then was as I traveled,
and I used to travel a lot pre pandemic for
my job, everywhere I went, I'll try and just find
somebody to interview, you know. So I went to Costa
Rica and I was like, oh my gosh, there are
black people in Costa Rica.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
I need to interview someone here, you know. So that
was basically my process.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
And some people also saw the call out and then
would share it with their friends or with people that
they thought would be really cool to interview. Like I
had a friend who introduced me to her neighbor because
her neighbor was a dominatrix. So some of the really
cool interviews were because people knew about the product and
they're like, oh, you have to speak to that person.
And some people just like inboxed me on Facebook. One
(16:05):
of my favorite stories in the book is a story
by Helen Banda. She just emboxed me on Facebook. And
I didn't see it for three months because I never
go on Facebook. People don't message me on Facebook.
Speaker 3 (16:16):
See it, don't send that, you know.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
So I kind of saw three months later and I
was like, oh my gosh, like you and Napoleon was married,
and I.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
Want to interview you.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
So then I was frantically trying to call her on
Facebook Messenger, later sent her a message. She responded, we
had a conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, you had such interesting identities and perspectives that you
cover in the book.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
So I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Was there anybody that you're like, Okay, you're too vanilla,
or were you able to kind of like find a
story out of everyone.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
I found the story out of almost everybody. There was
just one person whose story I didn't include, and that
was because there wasn't a lot of sex in the
conversation we had, right and in a fenness, at any
other point in time in my process, I would have
gone back and had a second interview with her, because
when I said to her, I'm sorry, I've thought about it,
(17:10):
I can't really include it. There wasn't a lot of sex,
she was like, oh, we can have another conversation, And
at any other point in time i'd've said yes. But
I was really close to deadline, and I was at
that stage where I was pretty much done with my
own book, right I was ready to send it to
the publisher. I never see it again, you know, So
that was literally the only story I didn't include, And
(17:31):
for me, that really speaks to the fact that I
feel like almost everybody has an interesting story when it
comes to sex. Like it's such a fascinating subject. I
could never get tired of writing about it. And I
feel like even vanilla sex lifes are super interesting, right
like A, I don't think you need to have this wild,
swinging off the ceiling kind of sex life to be
(17:52):
in a book about sex. Like I interviewed people who
were cealibrated, for instance, at the premise or at the
top of it, Tam, I think, oh, there was a
much But then it's really interesting to hear why somebody's
chosen to be celibate, what that's doing for them, how
that's part of their healin. You know what sex looks
like for someone who is celibates. Are they masturbating? Are
they not masturbating? All of these things. It's an endlessly
(18:16):
fascinating subjects.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So when you went to do the interviews, were you like, Okay,
I'm asking everyone all these same questions, or were you like, Okay,
I know this person's a dominatrix. I want to figure
out everything about their life as a dominatrix.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Were they more tailored?
Speaker 1 (18:33):
It was definitely tailored. Yes, So when I first started,
I didn't have a mixture of things. That sort of
consistent question I'd always ask people was how they identified
in terms of the agenda, and how they identified in
terms of their sexual orientation, and how old they were right,
those kind of three questions were super important to me
to have some consistency across because initially I was really
(18:56):
interested in can I see these sort of patterns and
trends and that kind of stuff. And when I first started,
I also used to ask people what's your earliest sexual memory?
And I stopped asking that question because I was triggering
people to tell me a lot about the experience of
child's sexual abuse, you know. And it took me a
while to realize, Oh, this is the question that's making
(19:17):
everybody go there, which is not necessarily a bad thing,
but it's also not really something that I wanted to
hear all of the time. And I didn't necessarily want
to trigger it unless somebody wanted.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
To speak about It's right, that makes.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
A lot of sense. Did you do a book proposal
for this?
Speaker 4 (19:42):
I did, Yes, I did a book proposal.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Tell me about that stage.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
What was that like and how far along in the
process were you and did things really change after that
or was it pretty close.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
I did the book proposal when I really wanted to
look for an agent, and because I'm a nonfiction writer,
I knew that the Keithyne would be the book proposal.
The Keithen would also be able to point to the
fact that I am the person who is an authority
on this subject and can write this type of book.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
Well, I'd been asking, like some of my writer.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Friends if the new agents who might be interested in
my work, and one of my writer friends actually connected
me to the person who eventually became my agent. So
that's also my biggest tip for people who want to
be published, like make writer friends, you know, I think
it it really helps because they're already in the industry,
they've already been published. They may be willing to introduce
(20:35):
you to their own agent, or they may have other
agents who like come into their pair view. So this
writer friend, actually I can mention his name. His name
is Suliman ad and I he runs a literary festival
called the Asthmaara Addists Literature Festival and Excel, which takes
place every year in Brussels, and my agents had been
to that festival and he knew I was looking for representation.
(20:57):
So afterwards he just wrote to me and was like, oh,
you know this agent was at my festival.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
Would you like me to introduce you.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I said yes, I sent it my proposal, and then
literally three days later he responded saying I've read it,
I love it. I think I can sell it. Can
we speak yay? Yes, And that's how I.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
Got my agent.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
And had you already started interviewing when you did the
proposal or was it something you were going to do
in the future.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
No.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
I had already interviewed at the time about ten or
eleven people, and I'd actually written ten or eleven chapters already,
so I also was able to give details of the
ten slash eleven people had already interviewed, and I also
spoke then about the other interviews and the other types
of people I wanted to include in the book.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
So I was already very clear about the format in
the sense the breadth of stories that I wanted to tell.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Nice Okay, so we'll come back to your agent selling
the book in last Did he do it right away
or no?
Speaker 4 (22:02):
Oh, yes, once we actually signed. Within three weeks he
had sold the book, what two to three weeks? Yes,
Oh my god.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Okay, what was that process?
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:13):
It was interesting, Like I was surprised that kind of
happened so quickly, you know. Yeah, I was surprised it
happened so quickly. And so when he finally came back
to me with an author, you know, one of the
things he said to me in the UK published by
Dialogue Books, which is part of Little Brown UK, and
he was one of the things he said to me
(22:34):
it is a publisher is called Chamaine, and he was like,
Chamaine works really hard for her authors. That really stayed
in my head, right, And I have found it to
be true because I have friends who have been published
by you know, like the Big Five, and they make
really big advances, but to be honest, their books get
published and no one ever hears about it. And I
feel like my publishing houses worked really hard to make
(22:54):
sure that my books are on bookshelves around the world.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Okay, So going back to the process of writing the book.
After you had done the interview, what was the process
of turning them into a story? How much did you
editorialize and kind of like add your own voice to it.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
So for me, because it's a nonfiction book, it was
really really important to be telling a true story, right,
So my process was quite intense of interview people and
then I would transcribe. So initially I was transcribing like
literally if I read myself, and then I was like,
there's a ticking forever, and so I start to transcribe
(23:33):
with the robots. But then I was still lessen and
correct every single mistake, and it was like the most
frustrating process.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I was really helpful. It was also really helpful.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Because then I would really hear the story because sometimes
in transcribe and I would literally hear something that I
hadn't quiet head when we had the conversation, or I
hadn't quite sank in, so I could go back and
like have a second conversation and also transcript, I would
also hear what, in a sense was the most interesting
part of the story. So that is one the crafting
(24:05):
of the story would come to me. So everything is true,
it's just that I arranged it in an interesting way,
and you know, the thoughts of like Okay, how am
I going to staff this, and how do I want
to tell the story and do I want to go
back and forth?
Speaker 4 (24:19):
You know?
Speaker 1 (24:19):
So I guess I would say I applied creative techniques
to how I told you the story, but everything was
was what was told.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
It was completely nonfiction.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Did you go back to them and say this is
what I wrote?
Speaker 4 (24:34):
Like?
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Is this no? You know? No?
Speaker 3 (24:36):
Okay, that's s Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:38):
I didn't want to do that. No.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
I didn't want to do that for a couple of reasons.
I think you can tell someone your story and not
necessarily realize how you come across, and you may not
come across always in the best light, and that's okay,
because that's also part of I think the truth. And
I didn't want people to like try and present themselves
like an anangelic fashion right, right, And I wanted to
(25:02):
show things as they were. So, just to give an example,
there was one particular story where one of the women
really was I would say complacit in sexual assault, but
that's definitely not how she saw it, right, or that's
that's not definitely how she would have seen it. So
part of what I did before the book came out
was to say to her, you know, that's actually happened.
(25:24):
That's actually sexual assault. You know, So I wanted to
prepare Hair for that reaction. But I wouldn't have once
hard hair to have had the chance to edit that out.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Of the story. Has that the sense? Yeah, totally? Was
she shocked?
Speaker 4 (25:40):
Yeah, she hadn't seen it that way, you know, she
hadn't seen it that way?
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Yeah? Interesting, okay, who So did they have to sign
off on anything or not? They were just like, I
agreed to do this interview and that was that.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
Yes, And what I'll do is most of my In fact,
all the interviews were recorded, so I would ask people,
you know, I'll say to them, this is what the
book is about. As a manfiction book, you can choose
to be anonymous or not anonymous, you know, all of
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
You had a record of it, yeah, yes, okay, So
you kind of wrote the stories as you were interviewing
these people. And how long did that whole process take?
And then how did you decide the framing of the
three sections and like the construction of the book.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
So the whole process took five years, from twenty fifteen
to twenty twenty. It also took five years because I
was very much doing it on the side, right, Well,
I had a full time job and I had many
many side hassles, a bit like you caught me. Yeah,
so it took five years just because of that process,
(26:56):
not because it needed to take five years and attempts
on of how I ordered the stories. That was actually
a UK version of there's a US version.
Speaker 4 (27:05):
Both versions are different, so that's also something that's interesting.
Even the stories in each section are different. Yeah, fascinating,
It is really interesting.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Was that requested or how did it? How did you
guys decide?
Speaker 1 (27:21):
I mean, I feel like to such an extent, books
are also put together with the support slash advice slash
encouragement of editors, you know. So the very first order
that I did, my editor had some particular feedback and
that actually in the UK, and that actually made me
change the arrangement of the book. So in the very
(27:43):
first draft that I myself put together, I actually started
the book off with the freedom section, and when I
got her feedback, I was like, I don't want to
change the people I have in the freedom section because
for me, these are the people that signify freedom. But
what I'll do is I'll move that entire section to
the middle addressed, you know, the sort of queries that
she had, and then with my US editor it was
(28:05):
a completely different process. So I think obviously what you
would have seen as the US version with the UK version.
So with the US version, my story is kind of threaded.
It's a bit threaded all the way through, right, because
you have these sort of slightly longer vignettes, you know,
each woman I'm about to interview, right, and the UK
(28:26):
version is a very short blend about each woman. Oh yes,
So again that's different, right. My US editor wanted a
bit more of my own story, wanted to know why
I chose to interview the woman, how did it like
change me, shape me? And so that was the way
in which I made those like like I added that
(28:46):
extra detail that she was really interested in here, and
she felt a US audience to be interested in here,
and you know what.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
She's right, Like I did like those vignettes and like
understanding kind of where you were coming from a little bit.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Yes, yes, yeah, so that was interesting and like sa
same thing. She was like why is this person in
this section? Why's that person in that section?
Speaker 4 (29:09):
And we had some back and.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
Forth, you know, and I made some changes as well,
in terms of the order in which people's stories appeared
in the US version. Yeah, so I actually want to
get from people who have read good to see what
they prefer.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Oh, how interesting.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Okay, So then you finally finish and you had these
like one draft or one pass with each editor.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Was that kind of how it went?
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah, so it was a different process.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
So the UK version sold way before the US version did, right,
And what I'm trying to remember, I think I think
the US was sold after the UK book was out.
Oh yes, So it's it's like I finished the book,
it was published in the UK, then my agent sold
(29:58):
us in the US, and then I reworked the book
for US audience.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Interesting, So did you have two kind of two book
tours and it looked like you had a massive tour situation.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
But what was it like on your end?
Speaker 4 (30:14):
It feels like it's been one long, continuous book tour.
Who just never ended. I can't complain. I've been lucky.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
Yeah, and I actually got really good publicity for my book, yes,
because it was like promoting the UK edition for a
really long time, and then the US one came out
and then we did a virtual book tour and now
I'm kind of promoted both all of the.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Time, and you got a lot of attention like, what
were the kind of the coolest things that you have
done during the tour?
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Oh gosh, so many cool things so recently, well, not
recently anymore. It was in April I was in Kenya
for a festival. I've been invited to headline a new
festival there and the New York Times correspondence, who is
based in Kenya, Abdi Upd, He reached out to me
because they had read the book, loved it and wanted
to interview me. And so I got this really really
(31:06):
cool spread in the New York Times, you know, and
made it to the print version. I was the cover
story in the book section, and that for me, has
been a huge highlight. That was a huge highlight when
the book came out in the UK as well. One
of the most popular newspapers in the UK is The
Guardian and they also have a book magazine. I was
(31:27):
the cover of the book magazine, and they also had
a piece that one of the journalists had done on me.
And then they also had Margaret Busby, who was basically
credited as being the first black publisher in the UK.
She also did a review of the book, and it
was like those three things came out at the same time.
And then they'd also sent a photographer to Ganna to
(31:48):
do a photoshoot of me.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
I looked godgeous.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Yes, there was a shop in the UK, Waterstones, that
devoted an antar window to my book. So I have
had lots of highlights. Yes, I'll say the Guard didn't coverage,
The New York Times coverage the Waterstone's window, a CNN
interview I did recently with Christina Mampor those are all highlights.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yes, incredible.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
What's next? The books out? Are you already thinking about
the next thing? Have you started anything? Are you kind
of just brainstorming?
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yes, I have the next thing that I really need
to start working on because I recently signed another deal
with my UK publisher for my second book, congrat So yes,
I'm not feeling the deadline pressure yet, but I do
need to start pretty soon.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
And yes, is there anything you can share about what
that one's about?
Speaker 1 (32:57):
I can say it's also still going to be about sex.
I'm describing it as part memoir, part African feminists, social commentary.
Oh with a heavy dose of inspiration.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
Love it.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
Okay, do you have any bucket list writing goals?
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Yes, I want to write a historical fiction novel, such
in pre colonial Africa.
Speaker 3 (33:21):
Interesting. Okay.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
What is one piece of writing advice you wish you
could give your former self?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Maybe just to have more confidence than myself and just
to trust that I am a writer and that I
just need to persevere and work at it and that
my dreams will come true.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Yes, what's wanted for writers trying to get a book published?
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Make writer friends just really, you know, I mean, I
think communities everything right, Just make writer friends and be
happy for them when they do well, and support them
because your own time will come.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
I love that, And I also seemed to me like
your blog offered this kind of like wonderful I don't know,
community for you to share your book just from the
get you know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (34:13):
Absolutely, absolutely, yes, completely agree.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I think communities are within, whether that's digital, in person
or ideally a mix of both.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
What's your all time favorite piece of your own writing.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Apart from the sex Lives of African Woman that's definitely
my favorite piece of writs and for now, yes, my
own book.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
And how can listeners connect with you on the internet.
Speaker 4 (34:40):
So my happy place is Instagram. My handle the is
d for d f O R d A L k
o A.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
On Twitter, I'm naszoo and nine and nas let the Weapon,
nas zero zoo and nine other n yes.
Speaker 4 (34:56):
And then obviously people should check out the blog, which
is super active.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
We always have lots of interesting content and that's adventures
from the Bedrooms of African Women and the URLs adventures
from dot com.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Yes, okay, well, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
This has been so interesting and I feel like it's
such a nice b side to our private parts unknown conversation.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Absolutely people need to check out that's as well. Thank
you so much, Cockney, thank.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
You for joining me for this episode of The bleedersh
writing is so much better with friends. I'm your host,
Courtney Cosack, and hey, let's connect on social media. I
am at Courtney Kosak, last name is Kocak on.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Twitter and Instagram.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And make sure you're signed up for the Bleeders Companion
substack for all kinds of newsletter exclusives. There's so much
good stuff that I send out to my free list,
and I actually just launched a paid subscription with some
extra goodies where I take you behind the scenes of
all my best bylines. I published a post about my
return to stand up comedy and how I got ready
to crush my showcase.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
I wrote about MFAs and whether or not I think
it is worth it. I also did one of my
favorite workshops I've ever taught.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
It's a manifestation workshop that I did for the New Year,
but it's really good anytime of the year.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
So there's so much good stuff for free subscribers and even.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
More for paid subscribers, And there is a link in
the description for that and join me again next time
for another all new episode.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
In the meantime, Happy Bleeding
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